Security Unfiltered
Security Unfiltered
From Tech Geek to C-Suite: Secrets to Winning Over Executives
Joe and Peter Ramadan dive deep into the art of communicating with executives—no fluff, just real talk. Discover how to ditch the jargon, nail concise briefings, and win trust at the top, whether you’re a security pro, tech lead, or aspiring CISO. Peter unveils his new e-learning series on executive briefings, sharing hard-earned lessons from getting his ‘bun toasted’ by a CISO to mastering the efficiency mindset CEOs crave. Packed with stories—like Joe’s two-minute security slam dunk and Peter’s factory efficiency analogy—this episode is your cheat code to leadership success. Subscribe for more raw, unfiltered insights!
Chapters
00:00 Authenticity in Podcasting
01:55 Launching an E-Learning Series
05:01 Bridging the Gap: Technical to Leadership
10:06 Communicating with Executives
13:45 Efficiency in Leadership
19:05 The Value of Time in Business
22:57 Navigating Security Tools and Budget Constraints
27:03 Embracing Leadership and Asking for Help
E-Learning Series Links:
https://youtu.be/E8sZEMWHRHM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYmCzpcg9gw
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How's it going, peter? It's good to have you back on the podcast. You know it's been an interesting time for both of us, I think, the past two months. But yeah, great, great to have you back on.
Speaker 2:Joe, I really appreciate being out here and had a lot. You know had a blast last time I was on here me that they prefer my format of an interview compared to some other people in the space, a lot of the other people.
Speaker 1:they'll do a two-hour recording with someone and they'll chop it up into 45 minutes. Whenever I hear that, it's like, guys, you know you're not, you're not doing anyone any justice. You know, if you're going to record for two hours, it should be pretty close to two hours to really get that that feel for the person. But you know, at least that's that's my opinion. I mean, there's other, more successful podcasts out there than mine, right? So who am I to tell them that they doing something?
Speaker 2:you know it. That sounds true, joe, but I would say, go the opposite way and just go full force into the direction you're going into, because it's more authentic. You're not, you know, saying we'll fix that in post, we'll fix that in post, uh, you know. Yeah, it keeps it real for everybody, and I think that's what we're all looking for is for something real, and we all enjoy security. But we're also, you know, is for something real and we all enjoy security, but we're also, you know, human beings who do stuff outside of security. So, you know, try to find a way in the middle of those two, and I think that's where you start to kind of attract the right people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Well, Peter, you know you. You made a LinkedIn post today about you starting about a e-learning series, right? So what's all that about? Give me the thousand-foot view of why people should dive into it and who it's really made for, and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah. So I would say the idea just kind of came out of nowhere. We have a mutual friend that a mutual friend that I was helping out and he was trying to develop some just source material to help educate the masses on specific areas of security. So we were kind of kicking around some ideas and I really wanted to think of some ideas that were not thought of before, which is a challenging thing to do. But it's one of those things where you just go onto Google and you're like, hey, I want to learn about this from in this area, what's available, what's the most popular. And I did the same for myself with security and started to realize that there isn't a lot of polished material out there and it's not a dig to anybody out there. It's just kind of like what we were just saying how do we keep it real, keep it about the topic of security, but, like I said, keep it interesting, entertaining. So that's where I said, hey, I'm going to start developing my own e-learning series, and the first topic that I wanted to jump into was executive briefings for security professionals. It's a near and dear topic to my heart because it's one of those that I actually had to go through and suffer through the pitfalls and get that harsh feedback from your CISO to say your message didn't get across, you used too many pictures, that didn't matter. With your presentation you lost the message. So I was kind of just swimming out in the middle of the ocean just trying to figure out you know what direction I should go in and I don't want anyone else to go through that. That was a really tough time, you know, I got my bun toasted a couple times but, to say it the nice way.
Speaker 2:But yeah, to focus on the you know, security presentations, you know for leadership, people who want to become CISOs, directors and, you know, don't want to just have the role, they want to actually do things while they're, you know, being that director, being that change in their organization. So I developed a seven module series for executive briefings which goes through kind of different topics on how to improve your game. So like starting from framing, you know, cybersecurity, to business terms, storytelling skills, what metrics, to use all these different things to help you start crafting your story and doing it in a, you know, very sharp, concise way where executives are just lapping it up, they're eating it up, they just hey, you're making my job easier. I thought I would have to work harder. You know, all I have to do is sign yes, thank you Moving on, and that's it's how they go. They're very uh, or executives are very red type, as in. You know, be fast, be good, be gone. And that's what I really want to teach you know, in this series.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is something that a lot of people struggle with, even managers and directors and whatnot, right, they even struggle with it quite a bit, especially that gap right Going from a technical role into a more leadership role. You know, that bridge there of trying to explain too thoroughly of what's going on, right, not being concise enough is always an issue, and it actually took, you know, a CISO of mine that you know kind of kind of took the time and sat down and was like, look, this is exactly what I'm looking for. And this is why I'm looking for it, because I want to take this, copy and paste it into this big old slide deck that I have and I want to talk about you for two minutes. That's it, that's all I want to do, and it has to be high level stuff. Everyone in the room has to be able to understand it right, like this is the board, the CEO, the CTO. None of them are technical, none of them have a technical background, you know.
Speaker 1:And that really started to kind of shift my perspective, right, because when I wanted to go to my CISO for something or provide him a status update on this big project that I'm working on, right, I always present it now in a way to where, if he, if he needed to or wanted to present it to someone in upper management above him, right, I want him to just copy and paste it, make it as easy as possible. Like you know, he may get a little bit more technical with me on the side, you know to learn the nuances of it, but you know it should never be. You know that like in depth, you know in the weeds view I guess, when you're talking to the executives, because they just need to know what they need to make a decision about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they'll let you know when you're going the wrong way too. You could lose the room very quickly with one slide. You could not even get into your introductory paragraph of what you're about to say. You could just throw up a slide and then no one's listening to you. Everyone's looking at your you know 20 million metrics within a little square view, trying to understand what is this kid talking about.
Speaker 2:So I don't want others to go through that, like I was saying before, because you could really hurt your reputation at the organization you work for with one bad meeting, really kind of hurt your reputation at the organization you work for with one bad meeting. And it's really tough to kind of put it like that and just be so dead cut about it. But it's true, especially when you're a security professional in your enterprise and you're not earning trust within the first couple of minutes, they're not going to listen to you. More things are going to pile up on your end, you're going to get a breach. And then, hey, why weren't you doing your job? And it's like I was trying to do my job. I had all these meetings and it's like I didn't hear that. You know, that wasn't the message that you delivered to me, and it's just like I got to get better at this, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, it's challenging if you've never done it before. You know, and I think one of the benefits that maybe this podcast inadvertently gave me was getting used to. You know, speaking with executives, right, I mean like I talk with you, know everyone I talk with. You know successful CEOs and founders. You know successful CEOs and founders. You know CISOs that everyone would know you know. So it forces you to kind of get used to it and not be, like, you know, awestruck, right, because a lot of the times when you're the lower level and you're talking to the CTO or the CEO or whatever it might be, you know you're you're you're nervous, more more of because of the status of the person you know in the room, right, that kind of it was interesting, right, I can't even remember who it was with.
Speaker 1:It was a CEO of some large organization that was coming on the podcast and I was real nervous going into the talk and you know whatever else, right, and my friend, you know, just asked me a real simple question, right, that kind of like broke it down real easy for me. He's like, well, you know what colors their blood when they bleed? He's like red. He's like, okay, do they speak English? I'm like, yeah, he's like okay, are they human? Like yeah, he goes. Then what's the problem? They're another person Like broke it down, like that right Genius. It was fascinating, yeah, because I kind of I carry that. I carry that now right Like I've done a lot of podcasts with you know spies from the CIA, from Israel. I'm going to bring on you know a former Russian spy. At some point I got more coming on.
Speaker 1:That's so cool? Yeah, it's a really cool thing. It's really easy to get intimidated, though, right, because these people, you know they're one in a billion, right, I mean they're not like falling off trees, right, like you don't run into these kind of people every time, right, or all day, um, and it's just interesting to have those conversations and I could like psych myself out before even going into it, you know, and uh, but I want to circle back right, because I do recall this is fairly recently, you know, within the past two years, right, my cto wanted to. You know, within the past two years, right, my CTO wanted to like have a call, basically with all the tech leads and the architects on the call and have them like present. You know what we're all working on and the progress that we're making and stuff like that, right, and it was fascinating because my architect, you know, kicked off the security portion, right, and he was the longest part of the entire security portion.
Speaker 1:He was basically just kicking it off giving a program overview, right, and it gets to me and I mean, maybe, maybe it was a dig at him, maybe, but I started off with saying like I promise this will be two minutes, don't worry, you know, like, just like setting the expectation right there, you know, and then, and it was, it was only like two there and it was, it was only like two minutes, whatever it was, but very concise, very to the point, very much he could take this slide, put it into his slide deck, present it to the CEO and be like, see this guy who's running all of security, he's doing all of these things. This is the value it's providing the organization.
Speaker 2:And at the end, you know, the CTO called out me specifically for providing good information, didn't even call out anyone else in security, right, and I kind of like hung my hat on that, so to speak, for the day was like all right, I did a good job Moving on, because now I got to go interview some CISO you know for a company you start to realize that, yeah, just the two things, that you start to remove titles from people and you then are able to communicate in a whole different, more open way and you're not just thinking this is the CEO of blah, this is the CISO of blah, you know, like this is just a really cool person that has a cool story that I want to hear. That's it. You know, you keep it simple. And then your, you know, your, your heart rate starts to go down just a little bit and was around keeping it concise, keeping it efficient, and what I've realized is that a lot of CEOs, cfos, coos, anybody at that C level, looks at efficiency as number one.
Speaker 2:How do I whittle away minutes, how do I whittle away hours, how do I whittle away seconds? And if you're in a meeting with them, they've already kind of planned this in their head, like I need to get X out of this within X amount or Y amount of time. And if you're not hitting that mark, you know that's where they think I need somebody else to come in and do what I need them to do, because I have X amount of time and you're going over that time right now. And it's not to be rude, but, given the demands of that position, that's what's needed. They need to have that efficiency mindset where they're just like instead of spending an hour on this, I need to spend 30 minutes, I need to spend 10 minutes or I need to delegate this. So if you're just, you know, going on for 20 minutes, they're on their phone just like huh, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, that's a. That's a great point. And you know, I kind of realized that several years ago, right, where you started thinking of efficiencies, of you know how much. Just simple, simple math, right, how much do I make an hour? Right, is it going to take me, like, how much time is this thing going to take me? And I'll give you a great example.
Speaker 1:I'm redoing my website right now and I'm terrible at it. You know, like it's it's real bad Because I'm not a website designer and I'm not that creative when I don't already have like design examples in front of me and website creation a lot of the times. Like, yeah, you'll have templates and whatnot, but at the end of the day, you know, someone that does this every single day is going to beat me 10 times out of 10,. You know, in terms of like design and flow and efficiency, right, and literally today I was, I had a call with my web designer and I mean 15 minutes into it she was like, oh, yeah, we'll get this all done in like two, three hours maybe. And I gave her my budget and everything and she's like, yeah, don't even worry about it. When I was starting to go down that path, right, the very first thing that I factored in was okay, how much do I make an hour? Right, how many hours is this going to take me? A very large amount, because I'm not good at it. Right, and can someone else just do it more efficiently, even if I spend a little bit more money? Right, like, is their price going to beat out the amount of hours that I'm going to spend on it? And 100% it is, and you're going to get better quality out of it.
Speaker 1:Well, that's what these CISOs or CEOs are thinking about in their head, right, like, think about it like this they spend an hour or two at a board meeting, right, one time a quarter. They spend an hour or two at a board meeting, right, one time a quarter. I mean, they're looking for every bit of value that you bring to the marketplace within that hour. It's not based on some fictitious number that people made up or that you came up with in your head or whatever. You know like it's. It's like literally no, every hour I am bringing this much value to the marketplace.
Speaker 1:That may seem, you know, a little bit astronomical, right, but when you factor in the amount of employees that the people are employing, when you factor in the amount of people from those employees that they're impacting, like their families, right, the kids and the extended families, potentially, and everything else like that it's like, okay, that number becomes a little bit more realistic, right? Exactly, it's just something. It's something that I've used to frame it right, because it's like, okay, they're viewing time differently because I mean, they had, maybe they flew here on a helicopter, right, if you're in New York and you're doing a board meeting, right, most of the board members probably got there on a helicopter, not via a car you know Exactly, yeah, and it's the fact that they're always kind of looking at it from this lens of I always use the factory scenario.
Speaker 2:They are given, you know, this challenge of hey, here's this factory, it outputs this much. Here's all this machinery. Is there the amount of people that you have? We want to up efficiency by 30% or increase our output by 30%, but we're not going to give you more people, we're not going to give you more machinery. You're just going to have to move things around. You're going to have to come up with better ideas, and we need it by the end of the month.
Speaker 2:So that's where you have to think like I need maybe one less person and a better machine or a better conveyor belt that I could make go quicker, and you know that's when it could start to. You know, um, which I'll tumble down into. That area of thinking of everything's kind of like I need to ship this, I need to make it more efficient, and you almost lose that personal touch from that. But then you also have to know from the outside. That's what they're constantly thinking all the time. They're always looking at this factory and thinking I need to make this 30% better, I need to make this 50% better with what I have already. So it's a. It's a difficult thing to do, especially when you know you have such a very small timeframe to do it and yeah, I, I, uh.
Speaker 1:I read this book a couple of years ago, called extreme ownership from Jocko Willink, right Former Navy SEAL. I mean, he's known within the community right as being just, you know, a real badass person.
Speaker 2:Screenshots of his watch of 4.30 in the morning and making me feel bad because I'm looking at that post at 12 pm Because I woke up at Exactly. Yeah, it's like, oh Jesus, this guy's already lived one life before.
Speaker 1:I got up, I didn't even do anything. He's already worked out twice. I didn't even do anything. He's already worked out twice. But you know, in his book he he discusses how he would have to go to his upper management and request different things. Right, like he'd have to request, you know, whatever it might be right, like a tank or a drone or you know whatever it is, and all of his counterparts, um, you know they would be requesting like everything under the sun. You know they would overkill a mission by 300, 400 percent of what they actually needed. They would have four times the men, they would have four times the weapons and the drones and everything Right.
Speaker 1:He described how, whenever he was, you know, asked what do you need, he would always say nothing, like like we've got it and that's because he's doing more with less. It's like, okay, well, let's figure out how to make this thing stretch farther. And he said the purpose behind that was that, when I went to go and ask these people for something they needed to know without a shadow of a doubt, I exhausted every other resource that I had and now I truly need it. Like it's not a, it's not a maybe he doesn't need it, it's a hundred percent, he needs it. Let's go get it. Got denied anything, you know, because it showed the urgency behind his own request without him having to, you know, continuously badger people, right?
Speaker 1:And so, in security, I think we get into this. We get into this mode where it's always we need another tool. Right, I need this. I need this brand new, fancy EDR. You know, I can't tell you how many times, right, people have asked me, you know, what's the bare minimum that you need in the environment to make it secure, right, and it's like give me a firewall, give me a SIM, give me an EDR. Right, I'll figure everything else out. Right, because every this is what you got to think of every other other tool almost, or every other category, just makes things easier. That's all it does. It makes it easier, makes it more streamlined and optimized. That's what you're paying for. You're paying for that efficiency. But if we're talking like a true budget constrained environment, it's like, okay, let me just get the bare minimum, you know, let me let me, you know, sleep a couple more hours at night.
Speaker 2:Right, what are you solving for the business? You always have to frame it for the business. It's not about I want to be able to, you know, for all these crazy advanced attacks. And it's like when is industry, are you in? Do you have public facing servers? Are you even like on a risk register for that? And then you start to be like, okay, you know, go back to the factory mindset. Like I said, what do I, what do I have in my factory right now and what could I do to make it 30 better or 40 better?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, and security is typically viewed by the board as like a black hole oh yeah, we, yeah, we don't make any.
Speaker 2:It's like, hey, we're throwing all this. We're not cash revenue generating whatsoever. We suck money up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and it's, it's interesting the dynamics of it, you know, and and you know when, when you have someone, I feel like it's easy to get away, get away or ahead of your skis with the security stacks. You know, I mean you can get so far in the weeds with this stuff. And you look at it, right. Whiz started five years ago, right, and they did CSPM and they had like some nuanced container capabilities right. And now they do everything under the sun and they just got bought out by Google, right. And if you look at Wiz's offerings, actually it's like almost 100% of cloud security, it it's like almost 100 of cloud security, and yet there's still 15 other pillars of cloud security that that people are trying to sell you on right, like.
Speaker 2:It's like, guys, I could just consolidate all of your stuff with this one solution for a nominal cost exactly, yeah, and there's some products that, um, obviously I'm not going to name, but they have these scoring systems and it's hilarious because it's like you go so arbitrary? Scoring systems and you're like wait a minute, I have to purchase something to satisfy that and that's factored into my scoring system. That's not. That sounds a little like greasy, if you ask me yeah, let's not talk about yeah, whatever, let's.
Speaker 1:Let's not forget to mention that the companies on the gartner's magic quadrant pay gartner to get on the magic quadrant right and then gartner sells a subscription to companies for them to view the different domains and the top key players that pay to be put on this magic quadrant Right.
Speaker 1:So it's like, guys, it's a, it's a pay to play, pay to win game that you're trying to have right now and like everyone's up on it. You know, like I can't remember, man, I think the last I mean I had to present to you know the the upper management right, present to you know the upper management right, when I was trying to get a project you know cleared and everything I had to, like you know, add in Gartner's Magic Quadrant and be like, see, it's on the Magic Quadrant, but that was all that I did. You know, I didn't care about a position or anything like that. I didn't put any value behind it. Because if they were to ask me, I'm going to be like, guys, it's pay to play. There's no real value behind this thing. The value is in the actual tool.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Yeah, it's supposed to be a guide to let you know about what's out there and you know who they think may be performing the best and, like you said, it's pay to play. So if you want to get your little dot, you know, in that quadrant, you know you got to you got to fess up the big bucks. So it's just like I said, everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt and contextualized for your enterprise. Anyways, I would use it in the same way that you did where it's just like hey, I know I'm getting brand reputation or they know what this means, and if Gartner agrees with me, then that helps my case even more. So it's like I'm playing this silly little game of you know I'm going to manipulate you a little bit, but you got to do what you got to do to. You know, build a winning case, because you said it's. It's not like talking to your team, you're talking to a whole different language that you need to convert to.
Speaker 1:Right, right, how did you make that switch? You know, you kind of I guess you kind of touched on it a little bit, right, and I'm I'm probably going, you know, beyond whatever outline you you prepared, right, because I mean a little little, uh, known fact, right, like I don't prepare an outline, I don't prepare questions or anything else for my guests. I mean, like, if you're really privileged and you know you were a spy or something, I'll prepare like two questions that are that are just like burning into my brain, right, but you operate a spy or something. I'll prepare like two questions that are just like burning into my brain, right, but you operate a little bit differently. And so you, I know you have an outline and so I'm derailing you from it, but what was that thing that kind of shifted your mindset into okay, this is how I do it. And then probably a quarter later, you figured out, okay, it was successful, or I got to tweak this or whatever it might be.
Speaker 2:It's embracing leadership, because at the end I'm going to sound very gimmicky right now, but at the end of the day, you are representing your team and you're representing the company. You're representing a lot of different things and if you're not getting your initiatives across, you're letting down not only the enterprise, but you're letting down your analysts, your engineers. You're making their lives harder. So there's a lot of people counting on you and when you don't follow through, it's noticed. And I've had moments where I did not follow through and made my life harder for everyone around me and that was just because I didn't know how to convey my message in a, you know, efficient way to the my target audience. I was getting too technical, I was taking too much time. Presentations up to 40 minutes, it's like no, you can't do that.
Speaker 2:So once I was able to start, really kind of like one, I would say, just listening to the leaders around me, really kind of taking note of what they were doing, how they were finding success and kind of like copying it in a way. So I had a couple of CISOs that really helped me craft my message. Or, you know, we always kept on saying how to craft your story, what's the story that you're going to tell today to your executive. And that's where I really started to understand. You know, this is how I'm going to start bridging the gap. This is where I'm going to start. You know, stop talking about PowerShell logging and start talking about the return on investment for the product. Start talking about what are our you are our competitors doing in the security market as well, too, because sometimes you're getting customers based on the fact that you are a super secure company and they may go with a different company because you had a qualification on your SOC 2.
Speaker 2:So that's where, like I said, I really kind of put a stake in the ground and said, hey, I'm going to get better at this, I'm going to dedicate myself to becoming this leader, to where I could translate the technical of everything we're doing into a business context, to where I could bring it to my executives and just make their life easy, bring them options and literally, like, what button should I press? Push the second button. It's like cool and that's all it is. Like I said, it takes a lot of practice and confidence in yourself, but I'd say the first step is to embrace leadership, embrace the position you're in and really give it your all when you are, you know, hunting down your initiatives and seeking that budget to make a difference.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is, that's interesting, what you know. Experiences will teach you right, and I feel like I feel like people are always worried about you know failing right, especially failing publicly, about you know failing right, especially failing publicly. I mean my gosh like man, the amount of times that I've failed publicly. You know, and and when we met, you know we were, we were working for a company that you know they had a I mean really they had a vital product to whatever company bought the product. I mean, like you can't, if you had a need to buy that product, you, it's probably a legal requirement, so you have to have a product of that you know same category in your environment and it's required to be up, like at all times. You know, and you know that culture really cultivated, you know a mentality of.
Speaker 1:I made a mistake, I need help, right, and I mean the amount of times that I accidentally did something that I didn't even, you know I didn't realize that that command was going to do something. It was completely unintended and I had to quickly realize. Well, I'm completely out of my depth here, right, raise my hand and be like I need an adult. You know, I mean, that was, that was the term that we used. You know, I need someone here that's more experienced than me that can help me with this. You know, and I mean you always could tell if I really went down a bad rabbit hole, if when, like the developer that wrote the code, is hovering over my desk, you know, and at some point he's just like give me the keyboard, give me, give me the keyboard there's. I can't even explain how to fix it.
Speaker 2:Yes, sir, please take over, thank you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean, it was a really interesting times, right. But, like that, that situation, you know, cultivates an experience or a mentality where it's like hey, I need help. Right, like you learn how to fail publicly in front of other people, like immediately. And there was people on that team that were not very well liked, that didn't last very long there because they weren't willing to raise their hand and be like hey, I messed up, you know, and announce it to the whole team, right, like, I think me and you were one of the few people that were like willing to raise our hand, announce it to everyone. Hey, I messed up in this giant way because that was the only way that we were going to learn.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, like, that's how it was um, it's, it's funny when you bring stuff like that too. It's. It's almost like post-traumatic stress disorder, when you're just thinking like, well, yeah, I remember that one time when I was on a customer support and I I asked them to do something, and then they, they reset all the admin passwords in the entire organization. And then it's like the next day they find out and everyone's just hey, peter was on support, it was peter, and it's just like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I don't. Oh, my god, it's like all right here, here's what happened, here's what I did. You know, like I'm I'm not trying to, you know, protect myself, I just want everything to be back to where it was so it's you know just try to even remove myself as an individual.
Speaker 2:It's like I just want this to happen for the organization. This is what I've tried. You know, help me out. That's a. I think it's a valuable lesson is that you need to ask for help. You just have to ask for help when you need it. You could spin your wheels as much as you want by yourself, but then you realize when you ask for help, hey, I could have saved two hours. And we're all human. I do it myself, especially with the C-Learning series and working on the creative side of the slides. My Lord, I've had to go back a million times and redo stuff and go on YouTube. Ask my girlfriend, ask my friend to review it. Is my head straight? Am I loud enough? You know it's really important to just get third party feedback when you're doing anything honestly, because people are going to see things that you don't and you're just going to have to accept that early on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, peter, we're coming up to the top of our time here. We're coming up to the top of our time here, but you know, before I let you go, how about you tell you know my audience where they could find that e-learning series and where they could find you know you on social media if they wanted to reach out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, fantastic, there's going to be two places. I have a new YouTube channel called Pram Corp Productions and that's where the channel will be for my e-learning series. They're going to be put into playlists. For my e-learning series. They're going to be put into playlists. So, as of right now, there's an intro to the e-learning series for executive briefings for security professionals, and then module one, understanding your audience. So that's going to be in YouTube, paramcorp Productions. And then you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm just linkedincom in P-Ramadan, very easy. I have a bunch of different articles and content you could check out there. And, yeah, just feel free to message me if anyone wants to contact and collaborate. Just talk about stuff. I'm, you know, really want to get engaged in the community and I want to thank you, joe, for helping me do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely no-transcript.
