How Porn Ruined Men's Foreplay — And the 3-Word Cheat Sheet That Fixes It

Most men learned foreplay from porn. And porn doesn't do foreplay — it does a sped-up, skip-to-the-good-part performance that taught an entire generation that touching a woman is just a formality. She's lying there wondering why she isn't feeling it. It's not her. It's the script.

Today's guest has spent 17 years collecting real-world data on exactly what porn got wrong — and what women actually need. Cindy Gallop is the founder and CEO of MakeLoveNotPorn, the world's first real-world sex platform, former Advertising Woman of the Year, and one of the most talked-about TED speakers in history.

In this episode:

• Why porn turned foreplay into a formality — and what she actually needs instead
• The 3-word cheat sheet every woman wishes her partner had
• Why lube and toys aren't optional — they're the whole game
• How to talk about sex in bed without killing the mood
• What real-world sex actually looks like versus the porn performance
• Why good foreplay starts way before anyone gets naked

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Transcript

New Name And No Shame

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Do the sex.

SPEAKER_01 0:02

I'm Annette Benedetti, host of the podcast formerly known as Locker Room Talk and Shots. The show has a new name, Talk Sex with Annette. But at its core, this is still your locker room. It's where we strip away shame, get curious, and speak the unspoken about sex, kink dating, pleasure, and desire. Around here, nothing's off limits. These are the kinds of conversations we save for our boldest group chat, our most trusted friends, and of course, the women's locker room. Think raw, honest, and sometimes unapologetically raunchy. Welcome to my podcast where desire meets disruption and pleasure becomes power. Let's talk about sex. Cheers. Here's something nobody tells you about foreplay. Most men learned foreplay from porn, and porn doesn't do foreplay. Porn does a performance of foreplay, a sped-up get to the main event version that taught an entire generation that touching a woman is just a formality. Meanwhile, she's laying there wondering why she isn't feeling it yet. She's wondering what's wrong with her. And it's not her, it's the script. Today's guest has been rewriting that script for nearly two decades. Cindy Gallup is

How Porn Warps Foreplay

SPEAKER_01 1:35

the founder and CEO of Make Love Not Porn, the world's first platform for real-world sex. She's a former advertising executive who was named Advertising Woman of the Year, ran the U.S. office of one of the world's top agencies, and then walked away to build something nobody in tech or business wanted to fund. A platform that showed what sex actually looks like when it's real. Her TED Talk was one of the most talked about in TED history. She's been everywhere from the Wall Street Journal to Jamila Jamil's podcast, and she has nearly two decades of emails, stories, and data on exactly how porn has broken the way men approach women's bodies, especially before sex even starts. Thank you for joining me today, Cindy. But before we dive in, I'm going to remind y'all that I'm over on OnlyFans and there. I'm sharing my intimacy, how-tos and demos and audio guided self-pleasure meditations and so much more. You can find me there and on Substack with my handle at TalkSexwithanet. You can also scroll down to the notes below this podcast episode, and you're going to find links to everywhere you want to find me, but especially Cindy, after this episode. Cindy, will you take a moment to tell my listeners a little bit more about you?

SPEAKER_00 2:52

So as you heard from Bonette, I'm the founder and CEO of Make Love Not Porn. We are pro-sex, pro-porn, pro knowing the difference. And we have just released in very early stage beta an extension of Make Love Not Porn, which is Make Love Not Porn Dot Academy, which is the sex education expansion of what we do. And so essentially, Make Love Not Porn and Make Love Not Porn Academy, Minika, a lifelong sex education learning ecosystem.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Right. And I'm excited to learn more about both of those throughout this interview because both of those platforms are going to be key for learning how to have the kind of sex and intimacy I know that you all want to have. And I know that you want to have that kind of sex and intimacy because you've been returning to this show over and over again for five years and listening and learning and growing. So please stay to the end because this conversation is going to be a journey that's going to help you unlearn some things that, by no fault of your own, you were taught when starting your sexual exploration as a younger person. And we're going to replace what you learned with some real techniques that are going to improve your sex life and making it exactly what you've always dreamed of. So I am ready. Let's talk about making love and not porn. Cheers.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Cheers to that.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

I want to start with having you fully explained to my listeners what the Make Love and Not Porn platform is.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

I should explain that Make Love Not Porn was actually a complete and total accident because I did not intentionally set out to do anything I very bizarrely find myself doing now. It came about because I date younger men, they tend to be in their 20s. And 18, 19 years ago, I began realizing through dating younger men and having sex with younger men that when we don't talk openly and honestly about sex in the real world,

Make Love Not Porn Explained

SPEAKER_00 5:07

porn becomes sex education by default in not a good way. I'm a naturally action-oriented person. I went, right, I'm going to do something about this. And so 17 years ago, I put up a tiny clunky website at makelocknot porn.com that in its original version was public service announcement. The construct was porn world versus real world. Here's what happens in the porn world. Here's what really happens in the real world. I launched Make Love Not Porn at the TED Conference in 2009, where talk went viral and it drove an extraordinary global response to my tiny website that I had never anticipated. Thousands of people wrote to me from all around the world, and I realized I'd uncovered a huge global social issue. And so I turned Make Love Not Porn into what it is today, which is a business designed to do good and make money simultaneously. Today we are the world's first and only user-generated, importantly 100% human-curated social sex video showing panel. So we've got Facebook would be if it allowed you to openly, healthily, socially, sexually self-express, which it clearly does not. The way to think about us is if porn is the Hollywood blockbuster movie, make love not porn is the badly needed documentary. We are a unique window onto the funny, messy, loving, wonderful sex we all have in the real world. And what we're doing is we are socializing, normalizing, destigmatizing sex, bringing it out of the shadows into the sublight, making it easier to talk about, to promote consent, communication, good sexualized behavior. We are literally sex education through a real world demonstration.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

So people can join it and upload their own sex videos and share it with a community.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Yeah. So I designed uh make nothing porn around a revenue-sharing business model many years before OnlyFans. Our members pay to subscribe, rent, and stream real-world sex videos. And half that revenue goes to our contributors, who we call our Make Love not one stars, who are everyday people simply sharing the wonderful sex that they have in their everyday lives.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

What from your knowledge of that, but also it sounds to me like through your real-world experience dating younger men who are coming to you, a woman with, I would imagine, more experience than they had with their education from porn and trying to please you, what did you learn and what have you learned about the effect that porn is having specifically on foreplay?

SPEAKER_00 8:09

But I do want to just emphasize one little thing, Annette, that I've been saying for 17 years, which is the issue is not porn. The issue is we do not talk about sex in the real world. Because if we did, amongst a whole host of benefits, people would then be able to bring a real world mindset to the viewing of what is simply performative, produced, scripted entertainment. And I have to explain to people that often overly pornified behavior in bed is driven by the best of all possible motives, not worse. Because we all we all get vulnerable when we get naked. Sexual ego is very fragile. People find it bizarrely difficult to talk about sex to the people they're actually having it with while they're actually having it. Because in that situation, you are terrified that if you say anything at all about what is going on, if you comment on the action any way at all, you'll potentially hurt the other person's feelings, cut them off you, derail the encounter, potentially derail the entire relationship. But at the same time, you want to please your partner. The only cues you ever see were in porn because your parents never talked to you about sex, your skill didn't teach you, your friends aren't honors. Those are the cues you're going to take to not very good effect. And one demonstration of what I mean in terms of personal experience is I am very open about the fact that I date younger men casually and recreationally. And I will just explain for our listeners' benefit that I am somebody who has never ever wanted to be married. I have never wanted children. Very glad I always knew that as opposed to finding out the flawed way by actually having them. I adore being single. I'm not a relationship person. I cannot wait to die alone, and I date younger men exertionally and recreationally for sex. And I'm deliberately very public about all of that because we don't have enough role models in our society for women and to men, by the way, that demonstrate you can live your life very differently to the way you're expected to and still be amazingly happy. And I'm one of the happiest people I know. So I meet the younger men I date on cougar dating sites. I applaud the rise of the niche dating site where everybody knows whether they're.

Communication Over Performance

SPEAKER_00 11:29

The first is I designed Make Love Mot Porn around all my own beliefs and philosophies, one of which is that everything in life starts with you and your values. So I readly ask people this question what are your sexual values? And no one can ever answer me because we're not taught to think like that. Our parents bring us up to have good manners, work ethic, sense of responsibility, accountability. Nobody ever brings us up to behave well in bed. But they should. Because in bed, values like empathy, sensitivity, generosity, kindness, honesty, trust, respect are as important as those values are in every other era of our lives where we're actively taught to exercise them. So first of all, make that look pioneering and demonstrating good sexual values or good sexual behavior. And as I say, that starts outside the bedroom. And then the second key thing we do is we are spearheading what we call the social sex revolution. The revolutionary part is not the same, it's the fact we're finally making it. We are taking the shame, guilt, and embarrassment out of sex, and we're making it easy to talk about. And that again is driven by again my own beliefs, because my background is 40 years working in advertising. I've spent 40 years working in the business of communication. I know therefore that everything great in life and business is one is one out of great communication. Sex is no different. Great sex is one out of great communication. And so great foreplay, great sex absolutely starts with communicate, communicate, communicate. Talk about it and talk about it in bed where honestly it's just God smacking how so many people do not.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

People find it shocking because I've been doing this for five years and I do coaching. I still sometimes struggle when I'm in bed with someone and they're doing something that I'm I'm like, this isn't gonna work for me. I hate having to say that in the moment. I hate, I hate it. I still hate it. Because I will also say that nine times out of ten, you can see the other person just like wilt a little bit. Just a little bit. You know what I mean? And so I feel like if it's hard for me, then I know for other people who are nowhere where I'm at with being able to talk about sex, it's gotta feel nearly impossible at times. And I remember a time when I was younger when it did. So I think you're exactly right that communication is everything. And I love, I want to go back to the fact that you said porn actually isn't the problem. And as you were saying that, I was thinking to myself, the way that people need to look at porn, because I also enjoy watching porn, different types of porn, but I also recognize it's like a movie, right? When you're watching a movie and they're doing a scene and something's happening in a scene, it's a two-hour movie. You can't fit in a full bank robbery or a full dinner with all the detail that's necessary to actually pull that off in real life in the course of two hours, right? It's the same for porn. You are having this scripted scene, but you can't put in the 40 minutes of foreplay that takes place ahead of time and what that actually looks like because there's not enough time. So you are getting a condensed version. And if that is what young men and women are using as an educational tool without the I thought process of, well, this should actually be three or four times as long, then and and include other things, then that's where everything goes wrong, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:35

So I can really respond to what you said, Annette, because and again, make love. So I have absolutely been in bed with the young man, he's broken out all the porn moves, okay, and I've gone, okay, I need to say something about this. And the moment I say something about it, I know the atmosphere in bed is going to change. Okay. But then when I go, I have to do this for every other woman he will ever sleep with in his life. And by the way, I will just say for Alice to this that you and I are obviously having a heteronormative conversation. I mean, I'm a straight woman, so I said I'm, but but make love is fully diverse, and everything we're talking about absolutely applies to whatever gender and whatever sexuality you are. Because honestly, after my TED talk, I heard from so many queer people all around the world going, oh my God, it's so right. Same deal. So, but as I say, I go, I've got to do this for every other woman who lives sleep within its life. And I can absolutely tell you now, listeners, that I have never had a bad reaction to broach in this conversation. By the way, that's partly how you do it, which I'm gonna come on to. But I'm a big fan of radical simplicity. I like to keep things very simple. The single biggest turn on in the world is to be in bed with somebody and know they're having a bloody amazing time because of you. And not enough people have that experience. Okay. So I will approach it absolutely in a very positive way. I instead of saying don't do that, I will go, you know what I would really love? I would adore it if we could do this or whatever. So I absolutely frame it as this is what I'm really into, and let's give that a whirl. And I can tell you that once you've had a spectacular orgasm because of that switching of approaches, they are convinced. I remember so that this is years ago, I was seeing a lovely 21-year-old, very good looking, had had a ton of girlfriends, he had a ton of sex, and it became very apparent in bed that he had never actually communicated about sex with any of those previous young women. Because I I instructed him on how to make me come when he was inside me, which he did very effectively. I had a fantastic orgasm. He was obviously chuffed a bits, as I'm pretty sure that that's an expression we use. And afterwards he said to me, he said, I've really learned a lot from being with you. I'm gonna start communicating in bed, I'm gonna start talking. And that there was there was another young gentleman I was in bed with, and showed him how to do what would get me off. And afterwards, I remember him saying in a tone of wonder, Oh, it's all about communication, isn't it? I went, yes. So so so so listeners, absolutely, when you broach the conversation in a very positive frame, and when you demonstrate how much the switching to whatever it is you want to do instead is turning you on, giving an orgasm, trust me, they are convinced. And just so you know, on make luck not porn, we tag our videos very differently to anything you will see in mainstream porn. And because we're building a new vocabulary for real-world sex, everything we do on our platform is conscious intention designed to make sex easy to talk about. And we have a tag which is chatty, but those are our real world sex videos that roll what called brilliant communication between people in bed. So so absolutely go to make love.com and search our tag chatty to see how other people are communicating in bed. But but but and I would say also that one prerequisite for this is it's incredibly important for great foreplay to absolutely know what you, your body, loves. And so I recommend also um so on Make Love Not Paul, we have a ton of solo videos from our solo Make Love Not Paul stars. And again, male, female, trans, non-binary, straight LGBQ, asexual. And those are wonderful because most people, a lot of people have never seen somebody else masturbate. And we get amazing responses to these sort of videos. One man wrote once up and said, I realize I'm gonna be having so much more fun masturbating because then these guys using all these tips and tricks. And so we have people use different sex toys, people really take the time to enjoy themselves. What you are seeing is make loving porn selves have a fantastic relationship with themselves, with their own sexuality, their own bodies, their own genitals. That can really help you understand what your personal enjoyment points are. And it's so important to know that because again, great foreplay is a function of, as I said, it starts outside the bedroom, it starts coming into any encounter determined to operate good sexual values and good sexual behavior. It starts with with communication, but but it also starts with knowing what terms you are. And and something very interesting I've heard from people who come to me, not porn, is and and and if you draw our seal experience as this for yourselves, we arouse in a very different way to porn. So porn is for the quick hit. And we are just watching what goes on in our real-world sex videos, which is how people get turned on in the real world. People tell me it's so much more arousing. What one woman said to me that she was having sex with a husband, and he said to her, Oh, you're so much wetter than normal. And and and and she said to, I didn't tell him, but I'd just be watching some videos on Megan. And and so there is a whole different way of being in all of this that not enough people are getting to access. And as I say, at Megalope, we are education through demonstration and that respect.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

So I love that you brought up that we have been talking in a heteronormative way. I am a queer woman, and I do want to say that these problems go across gender, the gender. Gender spectrum. I have been with women who were in the middle of sex and suddenly I know when something's off because they start making the porn noises. I'm like, I know that that's not that's not it. I know the real noise. Women also like to thrust fast when they're wearing a strap on or using their hands. And I've had to say, yeah, I need that to slow down. Women also tend to, when they get excited about something and they think they're doing well, speed up.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

I was just gonna say, Annette, I'm gonna give you and our listeners my cheat sheet, okay? Because the three things I found myself having to say most often in bed are slower, gentler, and don't touch me down there till I'm begging you to touch me down there.

Slower Gentler Lube Always

SPEAKER_01 22:55

I like that. The touching there happens too soon. And listeners, I want you to know I have been guilty of that. My girlfriend had to tell me, hey, why don't you wait? And I'm just like, because I get to go there. And I'm like, oh, that's what a guy feels like.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

I'm like, damn it. Damn it. It's me too. And also, uh, can I just say to our listeners, lube, blue, blue, blue, blue? Okay. Everything goes better with lube. There's no such thing as too much lube. And I want to especially say this because, again, as you mentioned at the start, Annette, I have 17 years worth of emails and comments and conversations with people about all aspects of it, because they don't know who else to go to. And I I remember soon after we launched, a young woman writing to me and saying, I'm dry during sex. And by the way, undoubtedly, she was straight, undoubtedly a measure of not enough or pay. And and my boyfriend doesn't want me to use lube because he thinks I should be naturally wet like all those four stars. And I want to go, first of all, there's a gigantic barrel of lube sitting in the corner of that head. But secondly, uh, what I say to straight women, especially, is get the lube, put it on the nightstand, use it because the moment he feels what that's like, bloody hell, everyone suddenly it's loot. Everything gets better with lube.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

I have multiple types on my bedside. I don't even take it off the bedside stand. Whether it's I'm alone or I'm with someone, I just leave it there. I've got my lube and my toys. They're right there. And I'm like, if you don't like being able to see my sex stuff, then don't go near my bedroom.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

I mentioned earlier that we're building a new language at MakeLot Form. So when we were building the platform as years ago, I said to my team, I want to find a term for the female version of Blowjaw that is as quick, easy, and simple to say. Because conilingus doesn't hack it, okay. And I said the reason that's important is because like blowjob, when something is quick, easy, and simple to say, it gets said a lot more, it gets asked for a lot more, and it happens a lot more. So on Make Love Mothorne, our tag for female oral sex videos is lick job. And that and our lick job videos are very popular because this is obviously lick jobs in the real world. And as my friend sex led Sandra likes to say, if your eyebrows aren't wet, you're not doing it right.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Yeah, you gotta get in there. You you gotta get in there. You just like go all in. I like that absolutely lick job. It does it, it sums it up, right? Yep, exactly. Something that I want to share with you. In 2022, I did a challenge called the 365 Days of Orgasms Challenge, where where I had one every day for a year, and I actually managed to complete it. And so this year I'm taking my listeners, viewers, social media followers on a 365 days of pleasure journey, which they don't have to have an orgasm, but it gives them a year's roadmap to self-pleasure. It's all about masturbation and exploring your own body and what does get you off and how to have different types of orgasms. So it resonated when you brought up like having these solo porn sters, if you will, to be able to show people how to explore their body because it is key to being a good partner and telling someone else, like you can't complain about foreplay if you don't even know what gets you excited, right? We're all just otherwise, we're all just is kind of like the blind leading the blind to pleasure. But how can you use this kind of practice, your own masturbation practice, to not only discover in foreplay, which is maybe we need to define what foreplay is, leading up to what penetration, what what is foreplay in your definition, but how can we use our self-pleasure practice to better understand what we need in foreplay, want in foreplay, so that we can communicate it to our partner.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

So picking up on that, I would just say that all I have an I have an inherent issue with the term foreplay. Because it implies there is a main event. And the general implications that a main event is penetration. As far as I'm concerned, what is term foreplay is simply having a very good time with yourself or with each other that could go in any direction. And and what's interesting on Make Lock Nock Porn is we are a unique window, as I said, onto the sex we all have in the real world. And so, you know, on Make

Self Pleasure Builds Better Sex

SPEAKER_00 27:51

Lock Lock Porn, you can watch two and a half hour videos, okay, of a couple who, you know, uh begin getting turned on, start taking each other's clothes all, uh, start uh enjoying various things, pet wanders into the room, they shoo it out, then they kind of go, oh, let's take a break for snacks, they get the snack, somebody spills a drink over there, they mop it up, they laugh, they carry literally in the real world, you are just enjoying yourselves in whatever way you choose. Okay. And so um now that that's off to scout the fact that as you and I are discussing, there is a real issue with a lack of understanding with partners that uh you need to be, and again, I'm gonna resolve some of the troficials warmed up in the mood, etc. But I think uh the very key thing is, as I said, this starts in the mind, this starts in knowing that you are with a partner uh who operates good sexual values and good sexual behavior. And by the way, I encourage people to people to start talking about sex before they ever get into the bedroom, because that's just a very good way of setting expectations and alignment. Then the ad scene making sure that you are both having an equally good time. And that this is something else we do at make not porn. A woman left a comment on one of our videos saying, after watching this video, I felt so enabled and empowered in my own sexual agency. Thank you for this gift. And one of the things we do is that we give women sexual agency because what they see in our videos is equality of enjoyment, equality of pleasure, equality of orgasms. And so it's really important to go into this, absolutely knowing that it's your right to have a good time, and it's all the more rousing for the other person when you do. And then I'm I'm a big believer in absolutely bringing the sex to others. Now, again, a lot of astute women don't want to do this because he'll feel threatened. And by the way, some men are uncouth enough to react in that way. And the point I make to them is do not ask permission. Because this is what I do. Okay, I went to somebody and I know that whatever he's doing is not going to get me to orgasm. And so I go, hang on, darling, I'm just gonna get out of my vibration. And I'm I'm not asking I'm telling. And again, as I said previously, the moment he sees you or your partner sees you, have a fantastic orgasm with the vibrator, they are all about it. I've had on such occasions young gentlemen say to me, Do you want to get your vibration out again? So just bring in whatever you you would like to enjoy, do whatever you would like to enjoy. And bear in mind this does not have to culminate in penetration necessarily.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

Right. And one thing that people don't think about a lot either, and I didn't either, for a long time, is you can use your toys not only on if you're using, let's say, one of the big wands, everybody because that seems, you know, the magic wand everybody knows about. Oftentimes women will like to use it on their clitoris while they're on top. If you just tilt it down a little bit more, he gets to enjoy it too. Yep. And then it's not or you put it against his shaft and you feel it inside, and it's something you're both enjoying. And then it's no longer about just your pleasure being enhanced, it's his. It's no longer about him not being enough or you not being enough, it's about having a little threesome with a friend that you can turn off and put away in a drawer and not worry about later. But I think if for straight women, especially to think of it in terms of enhancing everybody's good time and to show him that's possible, that makes it a lot easier. I didn't, I I feel like, and I wonder also, because you're having sex with younger men, I feel like more and more men seem to be eager to learn more about toys in the bedroom and how they can be used. I feel like that demographic that's like insecure because of toys is shrinking. Do you do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Yes, absolutely, especially Gen Z. You are much more open about sex generally. And what is interesting too is, you know, and I have to tell you, by the way, Annette, that the sex toy market is still massively undertapped. I I always say that what we're doing at Make November, making sex easier to talk about, is designed to help everybody in this market because you can design the most cutting edge sex toy in the entire universe. And if a couple cannot bring themselves to talk to each other about their sex life, they will never ever buy-news it. But also, a lot of men are completely not tapped into the massive male sex toy market. And and that's a huge shame because, I mean, again, we have a ton of male make love-not pool stars on make love not pool who absolutely demonstrate how much fun they have with different male sex toys. A lot of men don't even realize these exist. And again, by the way, that's down to save his prudishness. I have many friends who are sex toy founders, run those companies. Like us, they cannot advertise in the way that we we want to and need to, and and their social media posts are censored and their accounts are suspended. And well, that was humiliating because we are talking about really useful educational information on sexual wellness and pleasure that many people would benefit from. And not enough men realize there is a whole world of male sex toys out there and get to make use of them.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Yeah, on your own and in the bedroom. It is fun to use. I think as a woman, when I'm with guys, I love to use sex toys on men, and I think it's super hot. It's really hot and fun, and you get to mix things up and do things differently and have different sensations and still, I mean, the our body, the sensations our bodies can give to one another, fantastic. Look, no shortage of fun there, but why wouldn't you want to add to like what you can do, right? From my perspective. I want to get back to the the foreplay discussion. And as you brought up, it is interesting as we were talking. It's the first time I've had this thought that foreplay is almost we need that word because for most of society, when we say sex, we're still thinking of penetrative sex. That's just, and that's in all kinds of sex, at least from my experience, even with women on women, and here's some sort of penetration, and then you're like, okay, that's sex. But really, I would say sex is all of it, right? For me, if I were to really think

Toys Sexual Agency And Equality

SPEAKER_01 34:48

of, okay, well, then what is foreplay if we were going to keep that terminology? For me, I and I've said when I'm coaching people, foreplay can be happening all throughout the day when you're texting your partner little thoughts, right? In the morning, when you get up and you bring, well, this is what I like my lovers to do, bring me coffee in bed and like kiss me and say something sexy, maybe blow a kiss on me. That's that's the beginning of your foreplay. Absolutely, absolutely met. Yeah, I couldn't bring more. Absolutely. Right. And it especially when you're apart, the things you can do to just keep that like that juice turned on that that we oftentimes forget about, just the little sexy text that every once in a while, a little I have my good boob, I call it my good boob because the other one's got an any nipple and this one has an outie nipple. So if I'm gonna send a boob shot, it's this one with its its little outie nipple. You know what I'm saying? Just little texts or little thoughts, or you're even if you're sitting across from the table, just that's the that's the stuff that juices up the energy. Which, if that energy isn't there, it is so hard to move into physical intimacy. No, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

And also something I would say to Annette, to these straight women listening, is because I am a competent older woman, okay, dating younger men, I'm completely happy with I think I look amazing naked, I'm very happy with who I am in bed, which means that I can spend time focusing on them. Okay. So I tell the younger men I sleep with that they are beautiful, and I do that deliberately because we don't often apply the word beautiful to men. And I compliment them, and and by the way, from their reactions, and we have conversations about this, it's clear how unused they are to that, but because and I remember myself as a young woman, okay. They tell me often the reason they are on to the dating site and they are looking for old women is because they say women my own age are so insecure. And I emphasize because I was too at that age. But when you are insecure, it becomes all about you. You're worrying about how you look, your book, and so you don't spend the time complimenting him. And also I make a point of expressing appreciation for every other part of his body that is not his dick. So I complete sucker for a great male forearm. Okay, gently muzzled, lightly tanned. And so I will rave about his forearms. And and I think that's it. It's very important as we talk about foreplay for straight women to think about what they do to their male partners as foreplay themselves, that their male partners may have never experienced before, because again, we don't often so much uh straight sex and mainstream porn is so gendered that that in itself is inhibiting your ability to really enjoy each other.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

Yeah. All right. I know this isn't the topic of the podcast, but I have to ask you why why younger men? What how did you end up there out of curiosity?

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Honestly, and like everything else in my life by complete and total accident. So uh what I mean by that is 24 years ago, I was running an advertising agency in New York, and we were asked to pitch for an online dating brand that was coming out of the UK and wanted to launch it in the American market and take on Match, which was a market leader at the time. And in the advertising industry, when you pitch for a client's account, you have to experience the client's product and the entire competitive landscape. So we all had to online date. And this was 24 years ago, and none of us at the ad agency ever had, because it wasn't a thing back then, it was very much an emerging sector. So the rest of my pitch team at the agency were all already married, living with, dating. They all went online as fake personas, created false profiles. And when I was single, I thought, okay, I have to use a business reason. Why not do it for real? Why not find out what this whole online dating thing is all about? So I posted my profile across a bunch of sites. I was very honest about everything, including my age. I got an avalanche of responses, very good for the ego, by the way, but much to my surprise, because I had not considered this as a dating strategy, the vast majority of them were from younger men. And I suddenly realized that I was every young guy's fantasy. I was attracted to older woman, pipeline career, did not want to get married, didn't want to settle down. I just wanted to have some fun, which at the time, I had just started up this ad agency in New York in the world's topest advertising marketplace. I was working 24-7, fun was severely missing from my life. So I thought, wow, hadn't thought about that as a dating strategy, works for me. And I've been dating younger men very happily ever since.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

What's the main difference you've found between dating older men, middle-aged men, and younger men?

SPEAKER_00 39:56

Lots of stamina, very short recovery periods. Ah that refractory period. As I say, I date younger men retroactively for sex. I'm not interested in relationship. I'm not interested in meeting men my own age to get into a relationship with. And so when you're just looking for sex, younger men deliver big time.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

Well, there you go, guys. That's a sound clip in and of itself. I I think that's fantastic. I because I'm going to share when I I a lot of young guys want to go out with me. I get a lot of outreach. And whenever I've been on the apps and I haven't for a long while, lots of younger guys. But when I travel, inevitably there'll be some 20-year-old guy that wants to hook up with me. And I can't, I can't, I can't bring myself to do it. And in all fairness, I unlike you, I have three children who are now closer to adults. So it crosses wires for me a little bit, and I can't get past those cross wires. I was sitting here thinking, I bet if I didn't have kids, it would feel different to me, right? That kind of ruined the whole mommy thing for me, also, like which a lot of younger guys are into. Like women are into daddy doms. There's a mommy dom thing. And I'm like, also crosses some wires in my head that don't work. But I have just been so curious because I do know a lot of really powerful, sexy, interesting older women that have just their pick of these younger men. But I want to know this, and this is on topic. Do you find that Gen Zers or even young millennials, even millennials are more cued into foreplay? Is floorplay coming online? No.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Did I see you say to be straightforward, unfortunately, and that Leg spent 17

Why Cindy Dates Younger Men

SPEAKER_00 41:50

years fighting a battle every single day, not even to grow make love and porn just to keep it alive. Basically, because every piece of business infrastructure other tech startups take for granted, I can't. The small print always says no adult content, can't get funded, can't get banked, can't advertise. And I mention that because the issue, I was the very first person to identify publicly at 10, 17 years ago, is now all around us and it's huge. Porno sex education is completely the default today. And so, and and and the key thing to know is that as long as Make Love Not Porn does not get funded to scale, people want to watch other people having sex. It's where you will go, not just for masturbation flooder, but for what you think is information about how to do it right. And when you have no other contradiction, then that's still an ongoing problem through each generation. So unfortunately, I mean, this is why after 17 years, I'm determined to raise the funding I need to scale our impact. And it's also why we've just launched Make LoveNotPorn.academy. And so I had the idea of Make Love Not Porn Academy 11 years ago because parents and teachers began reaching out from day one of Make Love Not Porn, begging me for the zero to 18 and beyond sex educational extension of what we do. And 11 years ago is how long investors have refused to fund it. I managed to raise a small amount of equity crowdfunding last year to enable us to design and build the academy. It's in very early stage beta at the moment. Let's first do go and check it out, make up a porn.academy, be forgiving. We're still loading educators and content, but it is a global aggregator hub for the best of the world sex education. It's already out there, but is being blocked, censored, and deplatformed everywhere. And essentially, this is us taking our education about good sexual values and behavior as far upstream as possible. So when you go to the homepage of the Academy, you will see two videos from me. One is how to talk to young children about sex, fall in love, and the other is how to talk to teenagers about sex. Porn and love. Because this is advice I've had to give to parents over the years, which I'm now able to put on the academy to share with everybody. And it's education about sex, porn, and love. Because there's a reason our name is Make Love Not Porn. We do everything through the lens of love. Make love not porn is love in action. The academy is education through love. And the reason that's so important is because children are growing up in a world where they are growing up as much through screens as IRL. They are communicating predominantly through screen, which makes IRL social interaction awkward and anxiety-inducing. They are stumbling across the porn at very early ages. They are performing romantic and sexual relationships with AI chatbot. AI chatbot uses exploding amongst children and young people. And chatbot relationships are friction-free, play back only what you want to hear. What is getting lost in all of that is the joy, the messiness, the friction, the heartbreak, the wonderfulness, and the connection of first love. I've been saying to parents for years, you must educate your children about sex as early as possible. I've also said educate about love as early as possible. Because it's a wonderful thing. And your heart will be broken many times as a kid, as a teenager. But that is what life is all about, not retreating to screen in isolation and forming relationships and chatbot. And so everything we're talking about today at McMahon Paul, we really are trying to educate for an embed as early as possible, as far upstream as possible, to make sure that the children and young people today internalize great sexual values, great sexual behavior, and take that into the relationships they build.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

I have to say, on my social media platforms, especially YouTube, Facebook, which is my platform is really growing quickly there, Instagram. When I post my how-to clips with really quick bits for people to absorb and start using tonight, primarily men respond. And one of the responses I've gotten over and over again are men saying, if only the internet had been available before and I had gotten this kind of education and information when I was younger. These are men that are now into their 50s and older and who are like, I love the information now. I'm gonna go and use it. But it really sucks that I didn't have that when I was younger. Because what happens is as they're listening to this information that I'm sharing with them about what women need and want and what works, is all of the little light bulbs are going off. Oh, that's why she reacted that you can just see it. And it's so important because sex and intimacy are key to connection and togetherness and to not feeling lonely into whole health, mental health, spiritual health, physical health, right? Well, it is now that time. We have now pulled the whole idea of foreplay apart for you. Foreplay is sex. Foreplay is everything that comes before clothes come off before you're even together in person. But this conversation really isn't just about foreplay. It's about how

The Academy And Teaching Love

SPEAKER_01 47:30

to have good sex and some of the misinformation that you've gotten over the years, whether that's from watching bad porn, which neither of us agree that porn is the problem, or you've watched porn without the full understanding of what you're actually seeing and what it is able to show you. So Cindy is going to give you some takeaways for how you can start improving sex and intimacy, especially the leading up to the getting naked and getting busy part of it tonight.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

So my my first tip is a very obvious one because I built the solution to this, but I highly recommend that you and your partner go to make love.com and watch our videos together. And I say that because, as I mentioned earlier, we've designed the platform to take the shame and embarrassment out of sex. And so what we've heard from many couples is when we watch your videos together, it feels as natural and normal to comment on what we see in them as if watching Netflix or TV. And from there, it's only a short step to talking about our own sex life. And that has so dramatically improved it. So we are an aid to those communications breakthroughs. So watch our videos together. Secondly, for those of you who are dating, as I said earlier, consider bringing up a conversation about sexual values in advance of ever hitting the bedroom. It is enormously ironic that when we begin dating, we ask somebody what their favorite food is, where they like to go on vacation, and we don't get who are you sexually? This is who I am sexually. Who are you? And so consider, and as I say, a very good starting point is my question that I ask, what are your sexual values? Because I guarantee you'll get a really interesting answer to that. And it prompts a really interesting conversation. And then thirdly, absolutely operate your own sexual agency. Again, as I said earlier, when you are in the bedroom, do what you want to do to enjoy yourself, which at the same time is going to give your partner that amazing feeling of, oh my God, they're having a brilliant time because of me. That is the best feeling in the world. So own and operate your own sexual agency, and you'll find your partner will absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

I think this question around sexual values is so fascinating to me because I'm like, well, no one's ever asked me that. In my mind, I'm like, what would I say if someone asked me that on the spot? Do I have a clear, non-wandering answer to give them? And taking time to really know what do I value in sex? And maybe even sex now and where I want my sex life to go or expand into.

unknown 50:27

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

And when I talk about good sexual values and good sexual behavior, so on Make Love Not Porn, you see the real world version of that. And so our threesome videos are very popular. We have threesome, more some. Our tag for that is more the merrier. A man left a comment on one of our threesome videos saying, this was amazing. He said, I mean, the sex is really hot, but he said, I particularly loved the way the three of you kept checking in on each other throughout, making sure each person was okay, making sure that everything was all right, everyone was that is good sexual values in action. And that's the kind of thing you see on Make Love Not Born.

SPEAKER_01 51:06

I love it. Well, thank you so much for joining me.

Takeaways And Where To Find Cindy

SPEAKER_01 51:10

This conversation helped expand my own thoughts on and views and information on sex. And I know this is going to be really helpful to my listeners as well. Can you tell them all of the places where they can find you and get involved if they want to?

SPEAKER_00 51:27

Absolutely. So do join us at makelovelockporn.com. Sign up, subscribe. Subscriptions start at $10 a month. Very affordable. Do consider becoming a Make Love Lock Porn star. We are 100% human-curated. I design MakePorn to be the safest place on the internet. You can be anonymous. We take your videos down the moment you want them gone. So consider becoming a Make Love Porn star. And you get 50% of the revenue that your videos make. Do join us at makelovelopporn.academy. And that is free for everybody to access. I can search education by age appropriateness, cultural sensibility, personal comfort value. But we have a membership model, so you can support what we do and enable us to operate by becoming a member. And there's a whole tier of different membership pricing based on what you can afford. Do follow I'm at Cindy Garp on Instagram and Twitter X. Instagram just infuriatingly suspended our make lock up on Instagram account. We'll try and get it back. But in the meantime, we have a backup account at MLNP underscore videos. And we have MLNP Academy, which is the Academy Instagram. And do follow me on LinkedIn and on Facebook. And you can find MLNP TV and MLNP Academy on YouTube. We have two YouTube channels, the Make Up Horn and The Academy as well. And by the way, I have a substack called Dear Cindy. And I start with that because so many people wrote in and asking for advice on I mean, not just the sex lives, although I get a lot of those, but also business and fashion and stuff like that. So do go to Dear Cindy. I answer a question a week. Send me your questions and you can read my answers to everybody else's.

SPEAKER_01 53:12

I love all that. I'm going to be checking it out, folks. You should check it out too. Thank you for joining for this conversation because I think it's so important for everyone to know. A, I'm going to stand by what I have always said. And if you go back through all of my episodes, I am someone who said, ethical porn is not the problem. Right. And it can be a useful tool in bed, especially when you're seeing real world. I and I like, I like to watch real sex, people having real sex. Like not, I'm not as I'm not a scripted porn kind of person, but I like to watch videos of people having sex, but it's a great tool for couples, right? Yep, exactly. But that cannot be your full education, right? And communication has to take place. So look for the educators. And hopefully, this platform that you are launching will get all that education in one place. It is hard for educators like me, like Cindy, like the people I'm sure you're representing to get the word out there because unfortunately, our society is very puritanical, and we can get our stuff taken down quickly. And it's frustrating. It's frustrating to work so hard and be so passionate about something that is core to the health of our society and to be fighting for that all the time. So she has given you lots of tips for foreplay if that's your concern, but she's given you lots of tips for sex in general. Also, young guys, watch out. She just empowered a bunch of cougars. Thank you so much for joining me today. This was a fun conversation. I really appreciate you. It's been an absolute pleasure in it. And to all my listeners, until next time, I'll see you in the locker room. Cheers.