The Real Reason You Prefer Gi Or No-Gi (It’s Not What You Think)

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Transcript

Gi Vs No-Gi Questions

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Are you a no-gi guy or girl? Or are you a solid gi person? Does it matter? Is it important? What should you try? It comes up a lot, Joe. People come to me and they say, I want to try jujitsu, but do I train in the gi? Do I train no gi? Why, how, what's important? Because there is a definite split in jujitsu culture around the gi and the no-gi. And I want to talk about the archetypes, you might say. Talk about what kind of a person is attracted to training in the gi.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

What has Jungian psychology taught us about gi folk versus no gi folk?

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Um, more of the shadow self is attracted to has been revealed. No, I I think it's one of those things that I had been thinking about this because I had been going, I had a few chats with uh the Raspberry Ape about Ghee, no gi, who like why is it important? And I believe certain people prefer a certain type of training. So let's break this down as to you're someone who you already you're early in jujitsu, you're not sure. Because I've even had people who've trained for a little while and they're like, should I choose one or the other? What should I choose? What's going to be better for me? And I think this is a a pretty personal question, but it does come down to a few personality traits or preferences. Yeah, I believe. So what do you what for you, Joe, when you're thinking about the gi, no-gi, because you've been doing more no gi lately.

The Archetypes Behind Each Style

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Is that right? Well, that was sort of the thing for the last couple of years, but but no, lately it's been more gi because that's what I'm doing. That's what I'm teaching, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, you know, I'm like, all right, fuck out five techniques to teach you guys. Um it's a sweep. Guys, it's X guard, and there's like one sweep from X-guard, and then there's Close Guard and sit-up sweep, and we're done. Just get really good at that. Um, no, but I this actually makes me reflect on part of the conversation we had with Raspberry 8, which was when I made the point about that I don't think most people I don't think what drives most people in jujitsu is to get to Black Belt. I think what drives them is just to be a bit of a savage. Yeah. And it's just like, I want to be, I just want to be a tough cunt, I want to be a hard role, I want to beat some people in the gym. Yeah. Now I was thinking more about that, and I and I think that that clearly shows you guys how my mind works. Perhaps perhaps. And there's a bias there because I think if you have the potential to be a bit of a savage, a bit of a hard cunt in the gym, then that's the thing you start to desire. Yeah. But as we know, there's a whole bunch of people that that's not on the table for. Sure. Right? People who are naturally less athletic, people who maybe just don't have the confidence, yeah. A lot of females, right, in a male-dominated environment, right? And and and and a whole array of other folks who just their mind doesn't work like that.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Yeah. Or maybe they've they've got other priorities and jujitsu is just a nice part of their life.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

That's right. But but even to that, I would even maintain that you can have that sort of driving force and still just train twice a week. Yeah. It's just like when I'm there, I'm like, how do I see myself in this world? What do I want to be? Sure. And so it makes me think, well, there's probably a bunch of people with other driving forces. Yes. And some of them might be like, and I mean, you know, we have that archetypal kind of nerd in jujitsu, right? Oh yeah. They're learn they're they're knowledged up on all the shit. They're like fucking, you know, like beautiful mind type. Yeah. You know, like minority report with their fucking game plans and shit. Gandafanakis, all the stats. Yeah. And and they're, and like, don't get me wrong, in the world of jujitsu, they're a tough cunt. They're a savage because technically they're so fucking good. I'll mess you up. They're all over you, but but they're not doing it because they're driven by that kind of necessarily that egotistical kind of masculine thing. It's more intellectual, perhaps. That's right. It's like I want to be the fucking best at this. I want to know all the new shit. I want to be on JPS's new fucking squeeze the puss guard, whatever the fuck.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Um atomic pussy dojo. No, no, atomic dojo shout out to our boy JPS. JPS, love the guy.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Um, but the but so I think then in that regard, when I'm thinking about that kind of person, I'm like, seems to me they'd probably love the gi. Potentially, yeah. If you have that kind of intellectually sort of intellectual approach. Whereas, and this is talking more about myself, sure, if you're the kind of person that, and this is a simple way, but use a little test you guys can do it at home. If you finish your training session, and then at some point, as you're getting changed, when your gi top is off, you check your rig out in the mirror when you've got a sick pump, you are the no-gi archetype. The bro.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

You are an uh you are brojitsu.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Yeah, you're like, fuck damn, never get a pump like this at the gym. Shit my four hours.

Why Gi Feels Controlling

No-Gi Escapes And Explosive Movement

SPEAKER_01 5:13

Yeah, I didn't know I was that big. Fuck. And you know, there may be some of those people wearing the gi too. But what no, I I I agree with you in the sense that there are certain aspects to the gi that are not present in no gi, and and vice versa, right? There's and it's not even pros and cons, it's just elements therein. And I believe if for all my folks who love the gi, there's a degree of control there. You know, you have more ways to control your opponent, there's more ways to fuck them up, there's more ways to slow the game down if you want. Not that you have to. I mean, there's you see some crazy, furious cartwheels and all kinds of stuff. You know, plenty of people move like that, but I I believe people who are very dedicated and love the gi shout out our tobacco, they really like all the grips, all the control, like they're just so hard to deal with because they have really studied the nuance. But if we then go to the freedom of no gi, which is someone's kind of got you in an arm bar and you're like really sweaty and you're like, pretty sure I can just fucking explode out of this and you're out. You know, it's just like hey, well, I'm free. You and I think fuck yeah, my jiu-jitsu is sick. So good. My escape was so technical, yeah. Explode. And that's the funny thing. Like, that is also a frustrating thing when you're like, I've totally got this fucking armbar. Gone. Yeah. Shit. And that also means you have to be very like tight with with certain things. Like you can't, you can't kind of half have a hold and be like, yeah, I've got this person, I'm chilling. Yeah. Because if they do burst and twist, you're like, I totally you go from I've got the back to shit, I'm in guard again. Like I worked so hard to get the back, and now it's here we are again. So I think this idea of like at least when it comes to movement, the freedom of nogi really appeals to some people. And when you talk to people who are like, oh, I don't I just sit feel so much friction. Even Gordon Ryan, who you know, for for uh I don't know, maybe eight years, ten years, probably definitely like the best, had I think you know, probably I can't remember what year it was. He's like, I'm gonna I'm gonna get in this gi shit. Yeah, and I'm gonna take over. Two posts later. I mean, fuck the gi. Like he was just like, nah. Yeah, he was just like, nah, fuck that. And and I think that's one of the challenges that when you first start jujitsu, it's so confronting how big it is. And the gi just adds a world of um friction and restriction, which m many people don't vibe with.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's very foreign when you first put it on, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Yeah.

Why Gi Is More Demanding

SPEAKER_00 8:07

You know, versus versus no gi, like it's it feels very natural. Yeah. You're like, oh, we're just like wrestling here. Like, you know, this is yeah, but the the whole I mean, I still find that sometimes I guess when you Yeah, maybe if you've been in a bit of a no-gee run and then you and then you jump in the gig and you're like, ah fuck, like the restriction in it and you know the grips and everything. It is hyper-specific. And I mean, maybe you told me this, but guys like um uh Nico McGlisick, he mentioned this, right? Um whereas like it's way harder to be a gi world champion. A hundred percent. Like, and so you know, conversely going to no-gi is like a much easier pursuit. It it is.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

I I I think and and some people are gonna some people are not gonna like this, but you don't it's okay. Like, this isn't personal. It's like don't take my uh don't take my word for it. Look at the best of all time. You do not find someone who came up in no-gee who becomes a gi world champion. That doesn't happen at the black belt level. But you do have uh black belt gi world champions who are also no gi world champions. You do, yeah. It doesn't go both ways because the gi is harder. You do not have to take my word for it. Even Demetrius Johnson, who's widely considered one of the greatest MMA competitors champions of all time, recently said Gee Jiu Jitsu training is harder than training for MMA to be the chair.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Right.

Worm Guard And Knowledge Arms Races

SPEAKER_01 9:37

That's what the top level that's what Mighty Mouse said. Yeah, well you know, and he's you know, he's athletic as fuck because you the gi takes away certain elements. Like, even if we look at um, and you know, you might hate this too, but like WormGuard, like the invention of Wormgard or that whole system from uh Keenan Cornelius, it he beat Leandro Lowe, and Lowe could not get out of there. He couldn't quite have the same control over he subsequently after that match lost to um Bouchesha. But Keenan is a bit of a genius, and he's a super nerd of jujitsu. And he just came he came up with this idea of like, how am I gonna tie people up with this fucking gi? And it really people can say they hate it and it slowed jujitsu down, but it it was a- You hate it because it because it fucking worked against you.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Yeah, I hate it when cunts do it.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

And it's also because you have to you have to do the reverse dela worm.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Oh guff.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

I don't even know what that is. You gotta study. That's the hardest thing. Like, if you if you come to jujitsu and you're like, I'm not here for a fucking science project, I'm just here to have fun and move around, then maybe the gi's not that vibe for you.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Yeah, especially, well, I mean, yeah, especially in its current incarnation. And if you were training at one of those gyms that really takes that highly technical approach, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

We probably we I slotted in well at the time when we came up because it was just way less technical back then, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:04

Possibly, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Um, whereas these days it has evolved a lot. It makes me think of something I heard Keenan say, which was like that winning, like being the best for him, you know, or like being in the top five, ten, whatever, uh, was all about being able to have a new, a new fucking strategy that no one had seen for every comp.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Or like for every season. And so it's like you come up with a new thing, it works for a while, but then next year rolls around, you've got to have a new thing. And so it's like, what well, once you don't have any more new things, you gotta stop.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

But but that kind of implies it's like an arms race of of technical knowledge. Yes. Right. And if someone knows what you're bringing, then they're shutting it down.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Whereas sure that still applies in no gi, but you can like where the ghee often requires a you often encounter a technical problem, it requires a technical solution. In nogi, you can just circumvent that and provide a physical solution. Yes. And that's like, and if you know, and if you're that way inclined, i.e., you don't love doing the study and shit, you're like, fuck yeah, this is where I'm at.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Snap down guillotine every time. Big Harris is spamming Americanus. Shut up, Big Harris. Um, no, it's so so here's the thing, because people get upset when um I I had this before where I've said, oh, the gi is more technical. And it's not that Nogi isn't technical. There's a bit of an arms race in Nogi too. Like, if you don't know the latest entry to leglock, you get leg locked.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

Yeah, and I I do think leglocks is almost has become like an exception to that in like that just became such a system of control. And and there's so much evolution that's occurred over recent years that you're like, okay, that that almost kind of goes against what I just said. But no no, but but that said to like if before that it was like passing upper body controls.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

I I do believe that you know the the language of jujitsu has become more technical. But if we think about the ghee, and we were to compare it, it's like not that I'm a linguist, but you know, uh Mandarin is one of the hardest languages because of the tones, right? So you could say the same word or character, but if you say ts, like if you say it differently, it could mean the difference between like mum and dragon, or like fuck. Like you can you can you can really create mistakes there, and there is so much more nuance in the geek. It's just like and you maybe you just don't care about that. And I and so that's where I wanted to talk a little bit about like structure and hierarchy, because I feel that for many people that can either be appealing or off-putting. So I was having a chat with our friend Samoan Strongman. Oh shout out. And um, we were talking about old school and saying how jujitsu used to be very much um, you know, Brazilian in origin, like the BJJ, that idea, that feeling is that oh, there was a Brazilian coach, or there was this influence that that was the source and how you learned it.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

Whereas now it counts to 10 in Portuguese when we're doing the Star Jumps.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Of course, or even just the accent, you know, there's these things, and he's saying that we were just chatting and saying that that actually feels more old school because because jujitsu has become so much more diverse and you have different uh influences and schools and philosophies that you go to school and there's that's not part of it. Yeah, there's there may be no bowing, there is no, and and some people love that, and and then some people like, oh, I kind of there's something about that which is it's not even nostalgic, but they they would like some structure, they want to know where they sit in the order, and they're happy to um try and work through that. Whereas for other people, they're like, man, I just want to learn how to, like you say, be a savage, move awesome, and just fuck people up.

Kids Classes And Learning Discipline

SPEAKER_00 15:06

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SPEAKER_01 16:25

Because you've been bringing him the train he's been watching. That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

And I took him, I took him there and tried to get in into it over a year ago. And he he'd go and he'd put the gi on, but then he wouldn't want to jump on the mats, and you know, scared, whatever. So it's really nice. Finally, you know, I had to offer him a couple of uh Macca's soft serves to get him over the line. Rides. Yep. And uh, and then and now he's loving it, right? But what I like about it is that they're really big on the structure. So it's like, you know, class starts now, kids get on, hurry up, you know, don't make me wait. If you're late, run, be here. We all bow to each other, do the drills. And the the coach is like really, really big on teaching them like to listen, to pay attention, you know, just like manage themselves well in that environment. Uh at the end, very big on the handshakes and the eye contact and all that stuff. And I'm like, this is totally what I'm here for. I don't, I don't give a shit about the jujitsu as such, right? They do a little, you know, they do stuff, but I'm like, whatever you I'm just glad that they're doing is doing some some some bodywork with another person. Um, you know, the actual specifics of the technique couldn't care less. Um, and so that's what I'm there for. And I can definitely identify that that's what I went to jujitsu for originally.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

And we got a little bit of that when I started jujitsu because my coach was a fucking hardcore motherfucker for Brazilian. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so there was control and discipline, a little bit toxic, totally went off the rails many times. Sure. You know, and it wasn't necessarily in that like strict kind of Japanese way of what we envisage traditional martial arts to be like. Sure. But I contrast now to like sometimes at some gyms, you turn up and it's just super relaxed.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Yeah.

The Run It Straight Problem

SPEAKER_00 18:09

And it's almost like, I don't know if our American listeners are familiar with this, but the run it straight challenge.

unknown 18:15

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

No, I think most people across run it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

So if you, if you if you're hearing this and you don't you haven't seen the run it straight challenge, you're in for a treat. Just fucking chuck it in Instagram or Google.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

If you just Google how to get CTE in today, instantly run it.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

The but basically what it is, right, is we have this awesome game of of football, rugby league and rugby union, two different codes of football, and people is this there's collisions and tackles within that, right? Run it straight challenge has just taken that one one part of the football game and gone, you know what, the collision is what the people love. So let's just do that. It's the power slap of football. It is, right? And so it's like you stand here, you stand here, three, two, one, go. One guy's got a ball, the other guy's got a tackle. And it's like you just have to run straight. Bounce off you. You're trying to go through him, he's trying to put you down. And it's it's exhilarating and it's perfect for the TikTok age that we live in. But it's just this isolated part of the thing, right? You miss out on all of the other beauty of football.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Right? If we if we were to say, this won't happen, but if we were to say that football players all loved run it straight so much that they stopped playing the game and they just went to run it straight and then we lost football, you'd be like, oh shit, we actually lost something really awesome there.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Like this is fun, it's like eating junk food, but it's not what I want to. I'm not gonna sit down for 90 minutes on a Friday and watch my two favorite runners. Yeah, right. So, so in a way, I think that it's easy for us once you get into jujitsu and you fall in love with rolling and the sparring bit is fucking sick. It's easy to just go like, I just want to do more of this. Yeah, just give me the open mat. But actually, in the long run, you are, I think you're often turning your back on a lot of the things that you really love about it.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

And so I I in that way, I'm like, the structure piece, I think it's I think it's valuable and important.

Belts, Status, And Gym Culture Fit

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Yeah, and I I think it definitely I benefited a lot from getting like I was a very undisciplined child doing taekwondo. I got a lot from the standstill, don't interrupt, like, you know, you know, there was there was plenty there that gave me a lot more um tools personally to just control my behavior, basically. And and yeah, I think there's something to that structure. And for many people, they don't necessarily have it in their day-to-day lives in terms of like, especially if you work at an office where it has a fairly flat structure, even though you might have a manager, there might be a ton of people who are all about, you know, there's 10 different people who do similar things, and that there is no hierarchy there. And you actually, in some to a certain degree, humans crave um a degree of like uh not being noticed, but um I'm trying to think of the word, save me, Joe. Um acknowledgement slash, you know, I put the time in, I want my stripe, I want my credit. Even though you can say yeah, status, yeah, of sorts, but it's kind of it's not just arbitrary, you it's this sense of I earn something. Yeah. Because everything in life is very feels very flippant. Yeah. It's you know, like it's one of those things that it's with jujitsu, even though there's lots of different arguments about belts, you know the time you put in. And so therefore, the effort you applied, you can derive satisfaction from that. Whereas if you go to a gym where they're like, no, we don't really have belts, and yeah, everyone just kind of just gets at it and watch out for that guy, he'll rip your leg off. That is maybe a little bit harder for certain people. Whereas for for some, they're like perfect. I don't give a fuck about status, don't really tell me what to do. than how to you know let's let's do some constraint-based games and let me body slam someone yeah and I think that that to my original point I think that it that there's a connection there whereby like I remember when I trained at um 10th planet in LA with the Dark Prince this fucking mad gym can't remember the coach name but lovely bloke ran a great session bunch of killers in the gym typical 10th planet joint right bunch of colourful characters and uh I didn't fucking know who was good and who wasn't and then you find out when you roll. Did you see do you see someone in the corner just like is he getting me in the old eye he's like no he's high as fuck there's definitely some blazed individuals.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

There was this one like gay guy that was just like on the mats talking about like just making jokes about people fucking him just like in the middle like yeah I fucking you know and I was just like oh this is so hectic. And I'm like I don't I like I don't think I want to roll with that guy. I just it didn't seem like he starts playing like Donkey Guard on you you're like hey man I didn't I just hey but but it was but it was really it was a really cool it was a fun joint but but um if you are kind of extroverted and also if you're a bit of a bit of a motherfucker on the mats I like you got some shit then you'll fit in there. Sure. Because they were high level right everyone everyone was good and so I could go there as a visiting black belt and like have a good time. Yeah but if you were a traveling white belt and you were a little bit introverted and you had you know trained at your neighborhood academy in fucking I don't know Country Australia and then you found yourself in LA at 10th planet you would just you would probably just wither away in the environment because you're like oh my God like I don't and that's and that's and so you wouldn't be successful in that and so it's that same bias of like people who are biased towards a thing would be like oh this is cool I can work with this but if that's not your jam yeah but if you if it doesn't support your learning.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

If you can't handle a light beer you shouldn't be doing shots at a gay bar. Like I mean I'm not no no no no shade on I like I've I've I'm a big fan of Teth Planet shout out our boy Frank Barker big fan of gay bars. Yeah that you have a good time they were the best parties right boys know how to party but I so I think the thing is here it when we kind of circle back to you know someone coming up I you know maybe you've had this or maybe you haven't Joe someone's like oh what should I choose or like we've got to kind of get into what appeals and and why and I I think the benefit it doesn't matter where you go in the world even though there's obviously a varying degree of skill with um different belts you know like you see see the purple belt with four stripes and it's just withered you're like that guy's a black belt like that guy has murdered so many people whereas someone's like oh I just got my purple belt you're like everything's purple you're like you're in trouble buddy you know that guy that guy has gotten silver and bronze at every like his coach is keeping him there till he wins the world championship you know and so I think even though this does exist in the whole belts hierarchy when you travel the world even if you go to a place where you they don't speak the language you don't speak the same language as the people there you show up in your ghee with your belt that also it's a form of communication in terms of they can the gym can then put you maybe appropriately you know like I I think there is a yeah it allows them to kind of know where you're at and what's appropriate. And and and for the best part usually you can say they'll say how long have you trained or blah blah blah and this kind of gives you a a very rough reference but with Nogi you know like oh it's just it's just James Teho just you know he's retired. I mean he did fight in the UFC he did compete in strong man he also boxed um you know like just light roll just jump in you it's like what don't look at him in the eyes yeah no don't yeah don't try and pull clothes guard it's fucking no no no but that's what I'm saying I think that the difficulty is that um and you know not all we're generalizing a fair bit here right but if you are someone who prefers the freedom and you are quite confident and you're happy to go with the flow then I feel just going to a straight Nogi gym even though many Nogi gyms do quite well at their beginners and intermediates and they will usually kind of try to uh ballpark you on your experience um those who crave structure and are less sure I feel the ghee brings more certainty even though that has its own drawbacks.

Train Both Or Choose One

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Yeah I would agree with that. Yeah for sure and I mean look you know we we say like do it all yeah do it all but if you're in that situation where you're like I gotta I gotta choose like yeah some considerations there.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

And and maybe maybe it's maybe this is an old school point of view I believe you should train both like that's I I just I think for just general development because they present different problems. Yeah and so in that way it it makes you think about grappling as a whole you know like I had a guy I was rolling a guy the other day he's trying to take Spider Guard grips on my wrists and I just kept like just breaking I was like play a bit of Spider Guard he's like yeah and I'm like yeah I could tell we're doing OG bro like it's a hard ask you got to have such good grips to pull that off you know um they're the size of like my upper calf well no I think it's more like I'm like you're not you're not the Raspberry 8 bro you ain't you ain't got the grips for this so that that's it's one of those things that by doing both it does get you thinking differently you're like I can't get away with that and I can get away with that here and it it it it gives you perspective but um generally if you if you're that free spirit and you want to just just want to bang bro I think no gi is the choice. But if you are someone who who wants to take your time a bit and get a bit more control and slow it down a bit the gi affords you that and so the beauty of it is you don't have to choose but you have a choice.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Yeah and and always find your reflection after training because you never look better.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

Get that good down light you just need good down light back a little bit shadow mint