Jiu Jitsu Has A Serious Problem (And Everyone Knows It) ft. Dr Bridget Mottram

SENSITIVE MATERIAL WARNING

Dr. Bridget Mottram shares her expertise and experience regarding jiu jitsu's proverbial elephant in the room. The given power dynamic  in BJJ leads to terrible situations and we need to be able to openly talk about it. 

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Transcript

Allegations And Gym Power

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Hey, welcome to the show. Uh, big thing in jujitsu of late is sexual abuse. And we've seen a couple of really high-level grapplers, celebrities within our game, Andre Galval, Isaac Michel, and others, many others over the years, um, have some pretty heavy allegations made against them. Now, JT and I have spoken about this, um, and we wanted to do an episode where we explore um the realities of sexual abuse in the world of jujitsu because we we all know you only got you talk to your friends at grappling, we all know it exists uh because the the whole culture itself is very much a hierarchy. There is a lot of a power assigned to certain individuals. Um, and we know that it's out there in the world. And so if it's out there in the world and we exist in this culture within a very, you know, top-down power structure, then it's going to exist here to a great degree. Um we want to get into it and we want to be able to talk about it from the point of view of a couple of guys who don't really know too much about the realities of it. We have the privilege of being men, and so it's not something we have to deal with so much. Um, and we wanted to bring on someone that could enlighten us and enlighten you, the listeners. And so today we have, and we're very proud to have our friend Dr. Bridget Motram. Thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

Absolute pleasure. Um, we've known each other for a long time. We've trained together, we've trained jujitsu together. Um, you are like a Tasmanian devil on the mats. But more importantly, you this is your area of expertise. You have a PhD in criminology. Um, could you go into what you've studied and and and the field that you're in?

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Yeah, so uh I do have a PhD in criminology, uh specializing in domestic family and sexual violence. Uh and so over the last over a decade, I've worked in academia, uh frontline social work service provision, uh, non-government organization and government policy legislation and programs. Uh and I kind of live and breathe this stuff a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

Wow, ma'am. Thank you. Thank you for taking on and what I what can I what I can only imagine is a pretty tough gig.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Yeah, it can be. It can be. But it's also pretty nice to go home at the end of the day and know that you're kind of contributing to society a little bit.

Defining Sexual Violence And Consent

SPEAKER_03 2:11

Yeah, absolutely. Helping folks. Yeah. So on that, I I I guess sort of um, you know, I mentioned at the at the front there that there's been the Artos thing and the the Isaac Michelle thing, and and I think most of our listeners are familiar with with this that's going on. But what I think is important is to sort of define what, at least with how it's um how it's playing out as we see it in jujitsu, what actually what is sexual abuse or sexual violence?

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Yeah, so we when we talk about sexual violence, it's sort of this really big umbrella term. Um, and I know that we're talking about different jurisdictions, we're in New South Wales or in Australia. Um, so if we're looking at uh what we think of when we talk about sexual violence in Australia, it's really broad. It goes anywhere from what we colloquially understand as rape to sort of the the sexual harassment, the catcalling, and everything in between. Um so we've got sexual touchings, uh, we've got harassment, all of those bits and pieces that use uh sex and and sexual innuendos to make people feel uncomfortable or to make them feel violated. And one of the really key parts of this is consent. And what is consent? Um, and giving that freely and without coercion. I think we're gonna kind of touch on that a little bit more.

SPEAKER_03 3:28

Yeah, so um I I guess like if we take the the allegations that, you know, and this is uh this is a case that's playing out. So I guess we're I'm being cautious to not um to you know just alleged. That's right. Um, but Andre Garval, the leader of Artos, you know, one of the most uh winningest teams of all time, uh winningest competitors himself, um, recently had a huge fallout. Bunch of people left his gym, a bunch of his coaches, and there were multiple women who came forward saying that they had been sexual, they were victims of sexual abuse by him. Um and I believe that some of them were some of the points there were that some had been minors at the point when he had started to sort of groom them, and then you know that had progressed into their adulthood or whatever. Um, but so you know, that as a as a as an archetypal kind of story, I think for every grappler, you're like, I can see how that would occur in jujitsu. Yeah. Right? Like I you don't have to look very far at how our culture is and the nature of the martial art that we practice and you know how much of a male-dominated environment it is, um, how much worship we have towards higher belts, um, how much kind of leeway those higher belts have to really kind of do whatever they want, right? In a jujitsu sense. Um so, you know, so talking about that specifically, what do you think is the the type or the category of abuse that's mostly occurring there?

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Yeah, so when you kind of put it in those terms, we can actually really see the correlation with what we've seen come out of the Catholic Church. And that uh the groom you use were grooming, which is really, really important. Uh, and the way in which we see black belts as these, they're on a pedestal. They kind of go by different rules. Um, and it is a male-dominated sport, right? Like women are rising through the ranks. We've got so many female black belts now. You know, when I started jujitsu, I think we had maybe one or two female black belts in Australia. Um, so that's amazing, but we can't pretend that it's not still very, very male dominated. So, what we're seeing are these really senior brown and black belt men who own gyms, they uh they win championships, they're amazing coaches. Um, and we all we all know those black belts where they're always rolling with the new female white belts and they always get them into that, like into those really precarious positions and then kind of hold them there and laugh and make inappropriate comments. Like we we all know who they are and what that looks like. Um, and that's able to really thrive because of the power dynamics that we're kind of talking about. So, you know, we've got the the rank structure, um, we've got gyms that don't allow you to refuse a role with a higher belt, which is something that I've always very much disagreed with.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

That's weird, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 6:29

I find it so weird. And it it again goes to this idea around um like this godlike status of higher belts.

SPEAKER_02 6:37

Yeah, but is it also the approval of the coach that you're like, if I don't agree, then I don't move up here? You know, because that's the whole belt thing is like get coaches' approval.

SPEAKER_04 6:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

You know, even if it's not the coach, say it's a another student or instructor, and you're like, oh, I don't want to go with the creepy guy. But the coach is like, roll with them. And you're like, fuck, what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

It's in it on rules, on the wall. You can't refuse a higher higher role and you can't call out a high higher rank.

SPEAKER_03 7:08

Yeah. Um, and like in some ways too, like depending on where you're at on this whole thing, sometimes when you say you're like, oh, that's fucking cool. Like this place is like militant. It's like old school, it's like, you know. But that's usually like if you're thinking that, which is what I've thought, you're not thinking about like, oh, how would this be for someone that's like super vulnerable in this environment?

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Yeah, and that's sort of the thing I think that a lot of men in jiu-jitsu just it's not their life experience, right? And I think that that's the angle that I always like to come at these conversations from. It's not a willful ignorance a lot of the time. It's just not being something that you've been exposed to. Not on the register. Yeah, so you just kind of don't see it. Um, but women in jiu-jitsu kind of have these inbuilt things that we notice these things really, really quickly as soon as we step into a gym. Um, I think Jess Fraser's probably spoken about it a fair time.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

She she has, yeah. Both both her and um Pope as well. I mean, but uh yeah, we we we have uh interviewed Jess and I worked with Jess for a long time and Jess has always been such a strong advocate and really kind of I guess really stood up for the cause of you know women's jujitsu and Australian Girls and Gear, and she's done so much work. So yeah, and and and awareness too, such a a a strong leader, I think, for women in jiu-jitsu trying to make the cause to protect women in jiu-jitsu to foster it in the culture. So it's it is difficult because um just by the sheer nature of um just smaller percentage of I I had some weird illusion that there was some mythical school somewhere where there was just women or just women training. You know, not oh no, that is the younger sister of this world champion who's been maybe beat up by her brother continually for years to be so tough and so strong. And and you know, I don't I guess because I don't want to say this in any any uh wrong context, but jujitsu is so physical and getting kind of beat up is kind of part of jujitsu. So 100%. And sort of the value in jujitsu is it teaches you to be tough.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:22

But I've caught physical abuse. Like I've I've had my eye gouged, you know, I've had almost had my wrist broken, like intentionally by someone bigger, stronger, and higher rank than me, physically abusing me, not to win the role, to to just be abusive.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

And I just copped it because I was like, well, that's what it that's what it is, right? You know, this is part of the game. And so this is kind of this is a confusing thing, I think. Because you're like, is this what is this what it's meant to be? Like, is that person smothering me? Is that okay? Should I not be a pussy about this? You know, you know what I'm saying? And that's from a from a from a mal perspective, I'm not a small guy, you know, and I'm you know what I mean. So I it I guess this is a a confusing thing, especially when you're talking about this power dynamic.

Grooming In Belt Hierarchies

SPEAKER_03 10:09

Because there's a yeah, there's a fine line there, isn't there, between like, oh wow, this is like this is some really cool stuff. Like I'm I'm learning the hard way here, and you know, it's you know, and I'm I'm becoming tougher and stuff. And that, but that can really easily cross over into no, you're just being abused, yeah, you know, and and depending on the nature of it and and your your you know, your mindset and whatnot around it, like that could go one of, you know, could go either way. Can you talk to us about um I know you got some stats on on the sexual abuse piece? Could you could you take us through that? Because I'm guessing that, you know, as we've said, um we don't there's not been a study of such abuse in jiu-jitsu. Yeah. But we can look at what we know of the world in general, maybe uh specific to this state or this country, uh, and then maybe we can extrapolate some kind of Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Um, and I think everything that we know about uh sexual abuse in jiu-jitsu is all anecdotal. Uh, you know, I know it's something that in in women's spaces it's spoken about heaps, and it's just kind of an assumed thing. Um, in terms of our general population, we know that over one in five women report being sexually abused since the age of 15. So it's 22%. Which is just this massive amount, right? Like if you've got more, if you've got five or more women in your gym, statistically, at least one of them has been sexually abused. So that's from the Australian Bureau of Statistics uh personal safety survey, and that's a that's a self-reporting. So they're the ones who are even willing to put down on paper that they've been sexually abused.

SPEAKER_04 11:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

And a lot of women won't even do that when they've been sexually abused, right? Like it's such a source of shame. So we know that so many women have been sexually abused since that age, uh, since 15. We also know that between 87 and 90% of sexual assault victims don't report to police.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

So it's really, really rare to report to police. Uh, of those that do, about 15% go to court, proceed to court for a range of reasons, whether that be investigation issues, um, whether the victim just wanted to sort of have it on record but doesn't want to go through the process, whatever that is. And then less than 7% ever get a guilty conviction. So we're talking super low numbers. Um, so the issue is incredibly perver pervasive throughout our society. And so when we then and that's all around power dynamics, right? Gender power dynamics. So when we then put it in an extremely male-dominated environment that's very close physically, like there's constant physical contact, where we have pretty much predominantly or only men as the senior leadership, we are really setting up these systems for abuse to thrive. And then we add rules on top, like you can't refuse a higher belt. These are all systems that we kind of have in place for different reasons. We didn't, we didn't build it so it could be a sexual abuse haven. Um, but it has then ended up allowing for those circumstances.

SPEAKER_03 13:17

Wow, that's pretty grim. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Yeah, it's not, it's it's not the the best state of the world.

SPEAKER_03 13:23

D does just to clarify, does that so you know 22% of women will report abuse from the age since the age of 15, but 87 to 90% of victims don't report? Yeah. So does that then mean that it's way more than one in five in reality? Quite a lot of people. So don't report to police. Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Oh, okay. So this is the personal safety survey from the Australian Bureau of Statistics. Yeah. So not police reporting.

SPEAKER_04 13:47

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Like we we kind of don't really even count police reporting very much what in in these spaces when we're talking about this kind of stuff, because the what we call the dark figure of sexual violence, which is the unreported figure, yeah, is so high. So when we're looking at court stats and all that kind of stuff, that's when we look at at police reporting numbers. But if we're looking at the pervasiveness in society, it it's kind of redundant because such a huge amount don't report.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

Right. And so I I guess I just wanted to ask a question specifically for you. Bridget, would so you've trained jiu-jitsu um how long were you trained jujitsu, just out of interest?

SPEAKER_01 14:22

I trained jujitsu got I started in um 2015, and I trained pretty religiously for about seven years.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Right on.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

Uh, and I've had a a few years off. I'm hopefully getting back to it after I get back from from Brazil. I'm leaving in five weeks, and so I didn't want to snap a knee.

Statistics And The Reporting Gap

SPEAKER_02 14:38

No, fair play. Who knows? Fair play. Um just saving that for the holiday. Why not? I guess the reason why I wanted to ask that is it not that that's the most important thing, but obviously being in jiu-jitsu, your perspective is is very um informed. Yeah. And so in that way, for me, like um when I walk into any gym, not even not even BJJ, but just I walk into a gym. I spent my whole life in gyms. So I can pick up on certain things pretty quickly, but how clean is the bathroom or are people putting their weights back? Or why is that guy giving me the side eye? Like what, you know, like you you get a vibe. Are there for yourself kind of professionally and personally, particular red flags you pick up on when you go to certain um jujitsu academies?

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Yeah, 100%. Uh if there is any rules on the wall around refusing a role or not being able to refuse a role, I'm out the door. Right. Um if I'm seeing, you know, there's a class beforehand and people are just like it's not a comp class or anything, it's just normal class. And people are just going to frickin' war, like every role, and people being thrown across the mats and people being thrown up against walls, I'm out the door. Um, sort of those really highly aggressive behaviors. If I look around and the class is full and there's no women, I'm probably not rolling. Like I wouldn't, I wouldn't roll in that class. I'd sort of get a vibe. And and again, if they're throwing each other and going to war constantly, it doesn't really feel super safe. Um because we we do have so many women in jiu-jitsu now. So if you've got a full class and you haven't got any women in your class, I'd kind of be asking why.

SPEAKER_02 16:22

It says something about the gym, eh?

SPEAKER_01 16:24

It it says something about the gym. You know, you you go to a lot of gyms and they have sp specific women's classes. Right. Um, and that is so that, you know, women can be in this really safe environment and they can learn from each other and and it's sort of this really sort of collegial sisterhood kind of thing. It's really beautiful. Um, but it also just tells you a lot about the culture of the gym and how invested the head coach and owner is in making sure that women feel comfortable in that space. Right. Um, and then there is also just like a vibe that you can't name. It's the air in the place, and I think it it does still come back to that aggression. Um, because even when I've I've walked into like top competitive jujitsu gyms, right? Um, like you think about oh, um the one that the Liv uh Livia Giles is in down in Melbourne.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Absolutely M M A.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

Yes. You walk into that gym, that's like a top competitive gym, right? I you would never feel unsafe walking into that gym, though. Like you don't get that air of aggression.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

No, but there's a lot of female competitors there. Yeah. And obviously Liv as well, right? Like I would actually say Liv, shout out Livia Giles, is possibly more aggressive than Lock on Giles. You know, I mean that respectfully, like she's you know, like Liv's a competitor, right? So the whole vibe, yeah, you know, I think because Lockheed is not a meathead.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

He's not. Super technical.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:53

Yeah, and um, and that's right, and wouldn't, yeah, you could imagine it would be very hard for uh that kind of overly masculine, kind of somewhat toxic at times um culture to be bred underneath his leadership because he's just not that guy. No.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

And like, you know, you said the that Liv's, you know, you got that aggressive competitor edge.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

I I don't mean to say that in any draw. I mean, no, I I've known Liv for years and I I respect the how out of her and she's a champion. I'm saying that in terms of um like if we contrast her and Lockheed, yeah, she's a she comes across as a competitor. But if you know the difference, though, it's very like chill.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

You can tell the difference between Liv's aggression and like that real macho this is kind of a dangerous aggression.

SPEAKER_03 18:36

Of course.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Of course. And that's just a vibe that you can't explain.

SPEAKER_03 18:39

Like a middle-aged father that's on T that's fucking way more stripped than he should be. Yeah, this guy looks a bit hot-headed.

Spotting Unsafe Gym Culture

SPEAKER_01 18:46

You know, and you can't always put your finger on why that shift is there. Um, but it's just that vibe that you know as soon as you step into a gym.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Do you think that there is this might be a little bit to the side, just on that topic, uh just on that idea that Joe's uh raising about TRT? Do you think that the fact that there's rampant steroid abuse in BJJ leads to p potentially more aggressive behaviour or we know? You know, emotion people being emotionally unstable, doing stupid things, the agre you know what I mean? Because it's I'm not it's not causal, you know, like it's maybe correlated, but I I know at least in the world of um powerlifting, if you go into a gym where maybe maybe there's a couple people doing steroids, but but then you go into a gym where everybody is blasting gear, that is a very different gym. Even as a man walking in, you're like, oh Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

And that comes down to culture, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

So like you're saying, you know, it's not causal. And I completely agree. Like steroids don't make you abusive.

SPEAKER_04 19:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Um, in the same way that if we sort of look at it in terms of domestic violence, alcohol doesn't make you hit your wife.

SPEAKER_04 20:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

But we also know that when people drink, their um barriers come down and their control comes down. And so that's why we see an increase in abuse when we include alcohol. Same thing with steroids. Um, and then when we have a gym that has a culture of steroid abuse, um, it then gives that permission. So we have further permission as well as the steroids sort of reducing those, those barriers and those boundaries. Um, and then we're also probably looking at men who are really invested in looking macho, looking strong, looking masculine. And then that's also feeding into that male privilege and that that belief that men are stronger and they should be entitled to women. So it's kind of all these little different things that we have in society coming together in an extremely dangerous way. So 100%. 100%.

SPEAKER_03 20:57

Right. Can you um one of the things that I'm kind of thinking in the back of my mind with this in this conversation is like some of the stuff that guys tend to say or assume about, you know, about abuse generally. And and and I and I I'd be guilty of of you know having said these things myself, but like say with the gym thing, right? Like you you've told us the statistics, and they paint a very clear picture that abuse is rampant in society, and then we've identified, you know, the unique landscape of jujitsu, and so the how that can only lend itself to probably more than what we see in the wider society. Um, but you would have like a gym owner hearing that and be like, yeah, but not my gym, like my guys are nice guys. Yeah. You know, how does how does one navigate that, right? When you're like, okay, I I understand that this is a thing and that its its potential is everywhere. What does a like what does a gym owner who's hearing this and they've got you know five coaches on the roster, whoop, what do they do?

SPEAKER_01 22:00

There's a lot of things we can do. Um, and a lot of them are really small. Again, the first one I would say, take down any rules that say you can't refuse a role. Um and talk it, it's about you're responsible for your culture of your gym, right? So if you don't think anything's happening in your gym and you're just like, we're pretty sound, we're pretty solid. It still needs to be something that's on the agenda with your coaches. It still needs to be something that is encouraged to be spoken about. We need to take it out of the shadows, and that's a really, really important piece. This stuff thrives in the shadows. Um, so we need to be talking about it, even when we don't think there's a problem. And we're just like, hey guys, you know, this is something that is rampant in our sport. We don't want it in our gym. So if you see anything, if you hear anything, if you're worried about anything, I've got an open door. So you need to be saying that to your coaches, you need to be saying that to your students. Um, if you have a whole lot of women in your gym, think about a women's class. Um, it's not about segregation, it's about giving them a safe space in in a sport where they are very much the minority. Um, and if you do, like we all know, we all know the dudes that are a bit problematic, right? But as we're kind of talking about before with the definition of sexual abuse, it's not just someone screaming no, right? It's the coercion and it's sort of feeling uncomfortable, but feeling like you can't really say anything because you're the white belt girl and you've got this black belt guy who's won like five pan packs, and you don't want to look like that girl in the gym, or you don't want to have to move gyms, because obviously you'd be the one to have to move gyms. Um, like you know who that guy is.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

Potentially, the culture's telling you that you need to go to him, like do you know, like you're in a very lucky position. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

He needs to be spoken to, and it's not just, oh yeah, I spoke to him like three years ago. Like, if it keeps happening, you have to keep addressing it. And there needs to be a point at which you get to where you're just like, I actually need to ask you to leave my gym now. Like you need to evaluate their behavior and whether you want to risk your business and your gym and it getting out that you've got a dude there who's that creepy dude who does that weird sex stuff on the mat, um, and how much that's going to impact your business. As we've seen, you know, with Atos, I'm sure they're not super stoked about the the publicity they're receiving.

unknown 24:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

Well, they've it's kind of been weird because they've they've kind of played the they're they're kind of media, like uh they're coming back hard, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:43

Like, Benny from partisan has kind of not rotating with the authorities and we'll let it take its due course. And they're like, I'm back coaching every day in the meantime.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Yeah, they're like pushing them like, and so it seems very strange to me that it's almost as if Atos has kind of doubled down, like, well, we're not getting rid of Andre, so therefore pffting.

SPEAKER_03 25:03

Well, I mean, you know, in take, you know, shout out to the American listeners, but you know, look at their president, right? Like this guy's a this guy's a known fucking abuser. Yes. And so, and but but his his strategy is go on the attack, and it's working well for him. So anyone else that's like people are coming at me, I'll go on the attack. And it's probably gonna work well for you too. Like, this is the per the statistics, this is kind of the reality, right? Like just fucking deny.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Yeah, it's it seems very strange because for me, I can't get my head around it because I'm like I have no idea what I mean. Like I said, I've been bullied and I've been physically uh injured by someone intentionally, and I still those people are still on the list.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

Yeah.

Steps Gym Owners Can Take

SPEAKER_02 25:52

Like I don't I you know I will fight, I have a sp specific set of skills, I will find you. Um and it the challenge for me is like I I don't I don't consider myself abused, but I feel wronged. And I'm like, I feel like I wanna kill those people. That's not a threat if this is ever used in a court of law. Um but but that's the thing, and and I'm someone who's pretty physically capable to defend myself, right? But because of the power structure, I was a purple belt, they're a black belt world champion, I was physically abused, and I still keep that. I still, I mean, maybe that's a reflection of my personality, I can't let that go, but I've just like, you know, and so I have no idea what it must feel like to be in a position that you were saying the position of vulnerability of being a woman and being taken advantage of, and you're just trying to you just want to learn. Well, you just want to enjoy jujitsu without putting up this bullshit, right? So today's show is brought to you by our good friends at Raised Nutrition, Raised the Bar. They've got all the flavors. They've got tropical Usae. If that doesn't speak BJJ, I don't know what does. They've got salted caramel, which is delicious, and they've also got rich chocolate and roast almond, which goes awesome with coffee. So if you're looking for a snack to power your BJJ, this is built for you. It's all the clean, good stuff without the nasties. Whether you're trying to get some energy before training or you're trying to speed your recovery after, go to raisenutrition.com and use the code bulletproof and you'll get yourself some free bars. Get it today.

SPEAKER_03 27:28

I had a I had a counterpart of ours with the um talking about the allegations made against Isaac. Right. And uh I was talking with that with this friend of ours, and he was like, Yeah, I don't know, man. She didn't she didn't even detail like what he actually did to her. He just she just said that like she was abused or she was a victim. And I was like, I was quite blown away. I'm like, do you take the fact that she didn't want to put the details of the fucking sexual abuse he perpetrated against her on Instagram to mean that she's making this up? Like that's a like that's fucked for her to have to go through that. Yeah. You know, like she it's there's no, she doesn't, she doesn't gain anything from this. No, you know, and I and I don't, and that guy, that is a friend of ours, I don't think I think he just wasn't thinking, and he was just giving one of those kind of really inconsiderate, stupid responses, right? Which is where a lot of this, I think, unfortunately, where a lot of this stuff falls down to is just like our default kind of dude response. Um, but yeah, I was like, man, like how, you know, like what a naive thing to say, right? Like you've obviously never thought about it. And per Benny Marks, he's he's never thought about, hey, well, what if that was your sister? Or what if that was your wife and your wife came to you and said, Hey, something happened. I don't want to tell you the details, but like, would you believe her? You know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

And I think that I think there's so many things that go into that. I think part of it is um we're really scared of this topic, and we would like to think it doesn't happen. So it feels so much safer for us to go, oh yeah, but it probably wasn't that bad. Like it wasn't that deny, deny. Because then it's not a problem. Right. And like domestic and sexual abuse, it's such a big problem that's so much bigger than any one of us that it feels really difficult to tackle. So it's a lot easier to assume that one person is lying than the foundation of our society is that fucked. Right? Like when we kind of think about what's easier for our little brains to deal with, we would much prefer one person to be lying.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Yeah. Like it's it's there's been more than one person, right? There's multiple people saying I I was assaulted to varying degrees, right? So it's like, well, that shows a pattern of behavior.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

Like surely it does, but if we knock them down one by one, then they're all lying and we still don't have a problem in our society. It's just so much easier for our brains to grapple with. But it's also really interesting the way that those comments are said and the way that they're said online, as if, like you said, we expect women who have gone through this not just to stand up and say, hey, I went through this, which is hard enough, but to then give their entire experience, their entire brief of evidence out on Instagram before they're not even, it's not like, oh yes, you're right. It's like, oh yes, we'll allow you to speak now. Because we believe that something happened. Um, and we don't do that for any other offense. Like, if your car's stolen, someone doesn't go, oh yeah, but did you leave your keys in it? Oh, but where was your where was your bag? Like, were were you facing away from your bag at the time that your keys were stolen and then your car was stolen? Because that would be on you. And like, did you like leave it unlocked? Were you asking people to steal it? Were you asking people to steal? Like, you know, the question, like when someone says my car was stolen, you're just like, bro, that fucking sucks. Did you did the cops find it? Like, did you get it back? Did the insurance pay it out? Were the insurance being assholes over it? Like, we don't question what they had to do with their car being stolen.

Social Media Opinions Versus Justice

SPEAKER_02 31:04

Do you think this is a direct byproduct of the court of public opinion through social media? Because I wanted to get into legalities. And in the past, talking maybe 20 years ago, maybe more, certain media outlets weren't allowed to say certain things because it could affect the case. And they also could get sued for um interfering with due crossholds.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

Do you think now, because of Instagram and because of TikTok and because of social media, a lot of people just make their mind up off I I believe him, I don't believe her, or vice versa. And it has nothing to do with actually that person getting justice or them being able to seek justice.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

Yeah, 100%. Um, I think because like there's so much to it, right? Like because of the internet, because of the accessibility of Instagram, of ChatGPT, like we all think we're freaking experts on everything, right? And so we get a little bit of information and we decide that we have all of the facts and that we are capable and able to make this really informed decision. When you actually sit in on one of those hearings and you hear it's it's sexual assault cases can go for weeks, right? You hear the mountain of evidence that's put before the court. What's on Instagram isn't even like 0.1 of a percent of it. Like you actually have no idea what's gone into that case. But everyone still just made their mind up. And we still have those restrictions with the media. They have to say allegedly, you know, all of those kinds of things. But we have nothing like that on social media. It is such an unregulated space. And then I think we also had these keyboard warriors who were just sitting behind their computer, sort of saying these things that are horrifically hurtful, calling someone who's gone through one of the worst experiences you can go through a liar, um, and just not even thinking twice about it. Um, and then, you know, I don't know what they think that that sexual violence victims are getting. There's no pot of gold at the end of the hearing kind of thing, you know?

SPEAKER_04 33:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

It's it's horrible every step of the way. And most victims that I've worked with at the end of the process, even if they get a guilty verdict, they're just like, it doesn't feel like a victory because I just feel broken. So it's not, it's not something they get anything out of.

SPEAKER_03 33:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Um, and so you do, you have this court of public opinion and and everybody gets uh an opinion, and everyone's like we've got this thing about everyone's opinion being valid or everyone has a right to an opinion, as if all opinions are equal. As if someone who has extensive experience as as a prosecutor or a lawyer in this space, as if their opinion is the same as old mate who goes to the gym down the road, who works in construction. You know, those opinions aren't equal, but there's still one comment each on an Instagram post.

SPEAKER_04 34:02

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

So it's a really interesting thing that we've seen with social media on a number of topics. This just been one of them.

SPEAKER_03 34:08

I I also think there, too, that there's the that that thing of like just the patriarchy, you know, like it it is a man's world. And, you know, it w we've set the rules for a long time and and continue to do so, right, for the most part. And so it's just that thing of like, ah, like, don't worry, the little girls just talking shit, you know, like it's it's uh they're making up stories, they're crazy, they, you know, they manipulate, they're looking for an angle, they're, you know, trying to, you know, like that, like all of that stuff, like I think, even though you might, as an individual, be like, no, I would never say that, I would never think that about a female. When it comes to those situations where you see something in the media, you sometimes the bias, I think, particularly for a lot of these knuckleheads that are just sitting online looking to commentate, I say that as word podcast. As a knucklehead, knucklehead, right? Online. But but but they do just go like, oh, she's just, you know, they default to like that base level thinking, right? Of like, ah, she's just trying to get rich.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Yeah, and these are the tropes that we've all that we have all been raised with. We have all been raised in the same patriarchal society.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

But I mean, but look at it. I mean, how like like really honestly, how are these women benefiting? What money are they getting? Like, it's not like this is like a gold digger scenario. It's like this spoils their training environment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:28

This maybe ruins their social fucking engagement.

Legal Reality And Victim Safety

SPEAKER_02 35:31

They get stigmatized. Like, there's there I from the outside not really knowing any true facts about the situation, I can just go, this is it doesn't make sense. It's it's a bad situation to be in. Yeah. Right. Why would you subject yourself to that unless you were very desperate? Right. Like unless you were like, I I have to do something. And it's I actually the the level of bravery to do the thing, it's interesting in the sense that it then gives permission for other people go, oh fuck. I was hid like I I I didn't want to because you're saying about the shame, right? And this this is it's I think it's difficult for for anyone to admit they've been abuse, you know, male or female, right? So it's like so hard for people to come forward in that situation. Like I I guess I want to ask the question in regards to the um Isaac Michelle situation. Um someone had said to me um he deserves his day in court. Right? So absolutely let me just say say a thing. It's more of a question because I don't know and I want to understand from you as an expert. Is innocent till proven guilty? Is that still a valid thing? Or like what what does that even mean in terms of trying to protect victims and and and and women who've been abused? And then you've just got some person out there who may never be held to account. Like how does that match up? Where where do you see that?

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Yeah, so these are really complex legal questions that have been debated since the beginning of our legal system.

SPEAKER_04 37:10

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

Um so I'm really glad we're traped into this territory. Um, so innocent deal proven guilty is still very much a thing. Like that is what we operate on, right? Um, that always has to be balanced with victim safety, which is where we see remand come in. So remand is where you are kept in jail until you're hearing. Um, and it's because there is enough evidence before a magistrate or a judge for them to say, I believe that if I don't hold you in custody, you will harm this person again. So that's really kind of the only time where we don't see um innocent or proven guilty kind of played out in its in its most. And we have things like electronic monitoring, AVOs, all of that kind of stuff. In terms of does that mean that uh someone may never be held to account? Absolutely. As we know, the vast majority of sexual violence perpetrators are never held to account. Um, and it's interesting as you uh, as someone who's worked in this field for so long, as you ask that question, I'm just like, well, yeah. Like it's kind of just something that you end up accepting. Um, is that the vast majority of sexual violence perpetrators won't be held to account. Um, and that I think is where the the systems that women have in place to protect themselves and each other are so important. Um, I think that's why women in jujitsu are so close, because they know that no one's probably really gonna speak up about most of these dudes. Um, so we got to protect each other. And so, like, I think a lot of the guys see it as gossiping. We see it as a safety mechanism. So if there's a dude who, like you know, is a dick, and you've rolled with him before, and he he took that grab and you're just like, mate, that wasn't jujitsu. That was you grabbing my ass. Or, you know, there's this dude who's always crazy the the the jujitsu.

SPEAKER_03 39:08

I just no yeah, it's news to me. Yeah. Well, I've never just considered that. You've never thought of it, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

But how like, oh no, it's just grabbing a pants. Because how many jujitsu moves do you have where you grab the top of the hem of the pants?

SPEAKER_04 39:19

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

Hundreds.

SPEAKER_04 39:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Um, we all tell each other about them. And you you'll probably notice if you actually now look for it, you will see the dudes where if you're allowed to in that gym, girls will always say no to him. That they will even, if they were gonna roll that round, they will not roll and miss out on their training rather than roll with him. Because all the girls have spoken about it and they're just like, Yep, yep, nope, we don't roll with him. He's dangerous. And so we have these mechanisms in place because women have kind of accepted that this is part and parcel of being a woman. They're like, we do get justice sometimes, but a lot of the time we don't. And so we have these mechanisms in place to to just protect ourselves and others.

SPEAKER_03 40:07

I wanted to ask, um, going back to the Atos thing, the if you know, if the head coach of a gym has been perpetrating, allegedly accused. Accused, yeah, has been, you know, has been doing shit for over a prolonged period of time. You would imagine that people, a lot of people would have caught wind of this to some degree, right? Picked up a, you know, whatever sent, oh, it's you know, whatever, their behavior's odd. Um, and I'm not trying to throw anyone from that team under the bus by any means. And there has been some people from the team that have spoken out, you know, which is which is great to see. But you know, is it is it the case that, like, what's the responsibility there on the people who are around and who might be privy to such things? And in the situation, as I guess the second part of the question is if you were to find yourself privy to something, how what do you, you know, how do you approach it? What do you do?

SPEAKER_02 41:05

Yeah, what's the best course of action with reporting something like that?

How To Handle A Disclosure

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Yeah, so we've kind of got two different situations here. The first one I think is what do you do if you realize that that something's going on in the gym that you're in? Um, and that course of action, I think, really relies upon your relationship with the um person who's perpetrating and with the person who you believe is is a victim. As I said before, we've got to call it out. Take it out of the shadows, talk to the dude. If if you're in a position that you're able to do that, talk to the dude. Call it out. It's the same thing as as our campaigns that we've got across the state from government and non-government organizations, where they're just like, call out your mate's shitty behavior. It's the same thing on the mat. Call out your mate shitty behavior. If you don't feel you can do that, talk to your coach. Be just like, I've noticed this, you need to keep an eye on it. It's your coach's responsibility. They own the gym, it's their space. Um, if you're close to the person that you think is experiencing this, talk to them. They may not want to disclose to you, but talk to them, say, hey, I've noticed this. If you want to chat, I am here. Do you want to talk about it? Do you not? It's so fine if you don't. Um, if you know that they're really close with somebody else in the gym, they're just like, hey, I've noticed this. I'm just a little bit worried. I'm not super close to her, but you might want to have a chat with her. I don't know, like I might be saying the wrong thing, not sure, but I think I'm I'm not seeing something that's not great, right? So it really depends on your relationships in that space. If somebody discloses to you, it is really, really important how you respond. So, particularly if you're what's called the first complainant, which is the first person that that victim has disclosed to, um, it is so important that your reaction is appropriate because they may never tell somebody else again if your reaction is incorrect. When I say incorrect, there's a few things there. The first is this is not your hero moment. You are not the main character in this story. You are a side character. It is not up to you to run off and beat up the dude and defend her honor. You know, your role in that moment is to hold space for that person, to let them know that you believe them, that you are listening, that you are a safe person, that you will sit with them, that you will hear them, check on their physical safety and on their immediate safety. Like we absolutely need to make sure that people are going home to a safe home, for example. You know, are you gonna be okay? Um, and always let them lead what they want to do. So, as we've sort of discussed a couple of times, most victims don't report and they don't want to report. Um, they don't want to go through that process, and that's entirely up to them. Um so if they don't want to report. We're not being like, you have to report. You know, this is your responsibility to report so that you're protecting other women. That's a really good way to make sure that she never talks about this again. Because it's not about other women right now, it's about her and what she wants to do with her story. Does she want to tell the coach? She may not even want to tell the coach. Again, we're talking about shame here. Can you be a buffer in that environment? If she doesn't want to tell anyone, if you notice him calling her out for a role, will you stand up? Even if you're exhausted and you don't want to roll that round, will you stand up and go, oh, do you want to roll? And give her an out. Like, you know, there's also things around formal reporting that that we can do. Some of the things that we that we do sort of note from a legal perspective is that being the first complainant in a sexual assault matter is really important when it comes to if she does down the road want to charge. So there's no statute uh statutory limitations, um, statutory limitations on sexual assault matters. So if in 10 years' time she wants to report, you may still be called upon as the first complainant. Um, so that you know, that is a responsibility. We also know that if there isn't any forensic evidence, that goes after a shower. So if we're gonna collect any of that, if she wants to collect any of that, that's not something that you're thinking about at that time. If that's the situation that you've been in, do you want to go to the hospital and do what's called a sake? Um, so a sexual assault, uh, evidence kit, investigator kit. Um and contemporaneous notes. So make notes at the time. Because contemporaneous notes are looked upon really favorably in court. Um, because they're made at the time and they can, you know, it's if that story stays the same, that that that's favorably looked upon in court. So that is if they do want to report, there's sort of these things to think about. But because we know most people don't want to report, these are the sort of the little things that we can do in the gym to just be aware, act as that buffer. You know, if you're if you're able to warn other girls, I'm not talking about gossiping, but making sure that you know you've got a responsibility now that you're aware of it. What can you do if they don't want to disclose to the coach? What can you do? Just little things. And we can all do something.

SPEAKER_02 46:26

So on that, if you're a gym owner, yeah, and you you know, you're hearing this and you're thinking, well, I think my gym's good. I've never had any incidents. But based on this chat, maybe who knows, maybe there's something going on. What can a gym owner do to set up like a safe environment? And what what do you think are just like some just simple things which are, you know, are fairly easy to implement that can make the environment safer for women?

SPEAKER_01 47:00

So there's a couple of things that are a lot you can kind of do today, right? You can in all of your classes, you can go, look, we all know that there's some stuff happening in jiu-jitsu at the moment. If you ever feel uncomfortable in the gym, my door is always open, my WhatsApp's always open, come talk to me. Um, you can also do things that make it really easy for people to give feedback, like QR codes that give anonymous feedback. Um, you know, you're gonna get stuff like, you know, the toilet paper always runs out. You know, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 47:29

That's helpful too.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

Which is also helpful. You know, you need to put in a toilet paper.

SPEAKER_03 47:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:34

Um, but that is also potentially a safe forum for someone to say, this guy's a dick and you need to get rid of him, or you know, there is a problem in the culture in our gym. Um, and really it it just comes back down to talking to your students, having that open culture in your gym. Um if you have a higher ranking female, and this is gonna, this is a little bit difficult because you don't want to put the responsibility onto that higher-ranking female, it's not her responsibility, but give her, I suppose, the power to be able to talk to the women in the gym and then have that really good open discussion with her and be just like, are there problems in my gym that I don't know about because nobody has felt that they can come to me? And that may not be because you're not approachable. It could just be because you're a dude. Um, so find the the female leaders in your gym and give them that power, give them that authority to be able to be part of the leadership of the gym. A, that shows women that the gym is safe. But B, it also gives them someone that they feel they can talk to that will get results.

unknown 48:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 48:48

If you're a gym owner, what is your is there, I mean, obviously we're talking about Australian law here because this is this is your area of expertise. Is there a responsibility on the gym owner to report to police or is that an individual there there's not even an individual uh responsibility, no.

SPEAKER_04 49:05

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

Um so there's um it's it's kind of a little bit of a a misnomer um that you you've got a responsibility. You know, there's people who are mandatory reporters. Um so as a social worker, I was a mandatory reporter.

SPEAKER_04 49:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 49:19

Um the only thing that I had to report was abuse against a child, or if my client was likely to suicide or hurt somebody else.

SPEAKER_04 49:30

Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

They were the and I had multiple criminal offences disclosed to me as a social worker. My job was not to run off to police and and tell them everything. My job was to hold that woman in that space and be led by her. Um, those are really the only situations in which mandatory reporters have to report. So individual people in society, there isn't, you know, a mandatory reporting requirement.

SPEAKER_02 49:58

So I guess like as a business owner, like maybe Joe can speak to this a little bit, but like you want to look after your people. 100%. And so if you've got people coming to you complaining about someone, let's just say it was a totally different context, like s somebody is very um rude to every other customer in the gym.

SPEAKER_04 50:19

You're like, eh, that's that's not good.

SPEAKER_02 50:22

That's not good for my business. You know, like a um like this is a very Australian thing, but like I know dickheads policy.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:29

You want the culture of the place you spend your most time to be like cool people, right? Um is there not I I guess I'm kind of I don't know the right way to articulate it, but like what would you recommend if a gym owner hears about things like this? What's what do you feel is the course of action there?

SPEAKER_01 50:52

It's actually not really much different to the no dickheads policy.

SPEAKER_02 50:56

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

Um it's it's all along the same track, right? Because it's all the culture. So you want to if you're finding out that it's happening with a particular person, you need to take it out of the shadows and you need to talk to that person. And if you need to ask that person to leave your gym, you ask that person to leave your gym. But it's the same way that we want to create this no dickheads culture, it it's all part and parcel.

SPEAKER_02 51:19

But it's but B DJ has so many dickheads.

SPEAKER_03 51:22

Yeah, but there's gyms for dickheads.

SPEAKER_02 51:24

Yeah. Yeah. There's gyms for all of them. Specific gyms for those guys.

SPEAKER_01 51:30

And you know to avoid them, right? Yeah. It it's this it's the same vibe. When you walk into the gym, you're just like, this is a dickhead vibe. You know, you walk straight back out. You don't want to be there. It's the same thing when you walk in, you're just like, this is a dangerous vibe.

SPEAKER_04 51:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:44

And so the ways in which we promote no dickhead cultures is the exact same ways in which we promote no sexual abuse cultures because they're really the same behaviors. They're the same entitlement, they're the same shitty behavior. It's just the mechanisms that you're using and it's the social constructs that you're accessing to be able to perpetrate that shitty behavior. So we we just we use the same things. It's the way that the co coach calls it out, it's the way the coach constantly uh shows themselves and stands up in front of the class and and says this, that, and the other, the way they deal with issues as they come up, rather than going, oh, he didn't mean it, addressing it, talking to that person.

SPEAKER_03 52:30

Yeah, I think that's a really uh important part on it, which is that you like you were saying about surveying your members and speaking to them, and you have to actually be really proactive in getting that information, like chasing feedback from people. Um and then when you hear when someone tells you something, you have to take it seriously and and act on it. Yeah, it's so easy, and I know this because I've done it myself, like when you're like you're tired because you're coaching a bunch and whatever, someone tells you something, you're like, Oh, that's fucked, yeah, yeah, yeah, leave it with me, I'll get onto it. And you just don't. Yeah. And I think that that's the default thing in a lot of these situations. Yeah. And so then the person has told you the things like, oh, well, fuck, when I say something, no one does anything anyway. So they're not gonna, they don't speak anymore. Yeah. Um, so it's it's it's having the kind of drive to be like, I have to act on this and see it through.

SPEAKER_01 53:20

100%. Like, as you've got to take it really seriously when somebody is is disclosing to you. Um, and I think it is really easy. It's really easy to put it in that box, right? And I think we can we can tell the cultures of certain gyms of what head coaches and and owners put things in a box and deal with it when it's convenient, because it's never convenient. Uh, and what coaches act on things straight away. And I've been in both gyms, and you can really tell the difference um between a coach who who really takes their culture seriously, and it is part of just the whole culture, and a coach who's just like, oh, it'll sort itself out. And it it doesn't, it doesn't sort itself out, and you'll see that in your membership.

Why Society Excuses Abusers

SPEAKER_02 54:02

Yeah, and I mean when the abuse is coming from the gym owner or the coach, like that's that's pretty confronting, right? Like in power structure. The thing that just I don't think it just occurred to me, it occurred to me a while ago that it just kind of came to mind. The the original, like very big scandal was actually with Team Lloyd Irvin. And he, you know, that was like, you know, that guy had been, you know, involved in. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, and I mean Greg Sauders left, right? But also think this Keenan Cornelius and J.T. Torres left Team Lloyd Irvin to join Team Atos, right? Because to be part of another competitive environment. And, you know, uh Andre Galfalm is a preacher, and they did like prayer circles and you know, like all these things. It's just like is it a byproduct of these power structures, which isn't even just jujitsu? You know, it's like, oh, here's our Puritan leader. You know, this idea that oh, there is there is a pure person and they must be holy, and therefore we'll just do whatever they say. They're kind of ticking all the boxes.

SPEAKER_03 55:09

Right, that's kind of yeah, it's like as ripe as you can be.

SPEAKER_01 55:13

We have set up a situation in which sexual violence is going to thrive. It's like, you know, this damp, dark sort of little corner, and we're surprised that mushrooms are growing.

SPEAKER_04 55:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:26

Like, you know, they're they're all of the things have come together, and the way you're talking about it's like cult leaders, right?

SPEAKER_02 55:32

Yeah. You know, it it's or cult personality is a big thing in jujitsu, right?

SPEAKER_01 55:36

Like yeah. It takes ego to be that good. And and to be that good at jujitsu and to be a competitive black belt, you have to have ego. You have to believe because mental game is such a big part of of the game, right?

SPEAKER_04 55:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:49

And so again, we're adding another thing into that little pot that it brings out the worst results.

SPEAKER_02 55:57

Do you think, and I'm, you know, I I don't want to sidestep, but we we look at sexual abuse in sport, right? Especially here in Australia.

SPEAKER_00 56:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:06

And, you know, I don't know much about uh, you know, incidences in America, but I'm sure it's the case, that society somehow is more forgiving of elite sports people because, like, oh, he's a good football player, but I mean, he might have just exposed himself to a mum and you know, like, you know, like we saw it with Rock Tanner. Oh, second chances. Like so annoying to me. Oh, he just tried to stab a woman in the neck with chopsticks in a food court, but you know, he can, you know, he's good footy player. It's it's so very tired from all that training. Yeah. I mean, he's overworked. I mean, three, three flags in a opinion. Do you think that jujitsu is also kind of falling into this like enablement? Yeah, sort of. Kind of giving people breaks that absolutely shouldn't, because of this uh athletic achievement.

SPEAKER_03 56:57

Well, there was something put out about Garval that was like, um, oh, you know, he took it really hard after the loss to Gordon, and you know, he's been struggling.

SPEAKER_02 57:05

So of course, you want to abuse people.

SPEAKER_03 57:07

Right, yeah. I had to started a lot earlier. It might have just been someone like stating a fact of a thing. But but it yeah, it comes off as like, yeah, what are you saying there?

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Like I I think in answer to your question, I don't think jujitsu is falling into that. I think jujitsu exists in a societal structure that has afforded that. Right. Um, and we we see it everywhere. And it is just this going back to patriarchy. That's the foundation that we're all sitting on. And so we are so ready to excuse men's violence, and and men have spent many, many hundreds of years building up all these excuses that then become a fabric of our society. So we saw it with Brock Turner, you know, raped a woman out the back of a dumpster. Uh, and he got six-month incarceration with three, he got out in three. Um, and that was because he was a promising young lad. And, you know, we we have these ideas and concepts around women ruining the lives of men with sexual assault allegations. And and we don't even give second thought to the ruined life of the woman who now has to live with this PTSD for the rest of their lives. Um, and that is really I I would love to be able to explain it in any other way, um in any way that was easy to solve. But it really is the product of the patriarchal foundation of our society in the way that we are just so ready to excuse men's violence and uh responsibilize the victim, which is generally a female. Because we also know that that male victims of violence are generally victims of male perpetrators. So we are just so invested in excusing men's violence that we have come up over many, many, many, many years many excuses for their violence. And we've seen laws changed around it. It was something that I specifically looked at in my PhD thesis was are we able to talk about women's violence in the same way that we can talk about men's violence? And I spent five years examining this problem, and no, we can't. We actually cannot grapple with the idea of women's violence as anywhere near as excusable as men's violence. There is there is no way our little brains can comprehend it in the society that we live in. So unfortunately, this is this is genuinely just the undercurrent of our society that we're living in. Which as I said, I wish I had a simpler answer. It's a bit of a shit answer. I was sorry.

SPEAKER_02 59:36

It's pretty confronting. Yeah. I mean, the statistics, the situation.

SPEAKER_01 59:40

It's um and I I I think that, you know, talking about it in these kinds of forums is just so important. And and I really take my hat off to you both for doing it because it is really confronting. You know, I've been in this space for over a decade. I've also lived in this world as a woman for 34 years. So none of this is new to me. Um and you know, a lot of the time I'm just like, oh yeah, that happens. Uh and I think if you talk to me, women and jujitsu, they'll get the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:06

It's it's very challenging because I mean, like, so Joe, you know, Joe has a a a wife and a daughter, and and we're raised by women. I have two younger sisters, and I think to myself, not in my rightest of thinking, but if anything were to happen to my wife or anyone close to me, I would I would plot a murder.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:29

That's that's my inclination. Because I'm like, that's the only justice I can see, you know what I mean? Like I'm not saying that's the right answer. That's right. That's that's where it goes in me, right? And so it is so tough. I mean, I don't know. There's no good answers, right? There's no there's no way to tie a bow in it. But I mean, like for you as a woman in jujitsu and also understanding this um subject matter very well, is there anything that you can either give to women who may have been made victims? Or even just men who are becoming aware maybe they've seen something and it's not clicked and they're thinking to themselves What do you think i is a way that we can approach uh uh undoing this or or trying to act better to make the to help make the situation better? What can we do?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

Yeah. So I think to to women who are experiencing this, I will always say, I believe you. It was not your fault, and what do you want to do? The power is in your hands. To men who are becoming aware of it, I would say, I get it. I get this is really scary, and that you feel super confronted right now, and that you would really love for me to give you a super easy answer out. Um there isn't one. You need to sit with that for a little bit, um, and get comfortable in being uncomfortable. Um and now that you are aware of it, thank you for being an ally. And be an ally. Be that dude who all the women feel comfortable rolling with and wouldn't wouldn't second second guess rolling with you. You know, make sure that you check in on your female training partners, you know, make sure that you that you talk to them and and that you make sure they feel safe. You know, you get to be an ally. And I think it's really important to tell the difference between ally and protector or mat enforcer, you know. You're you're standing with them, you're standing next to them, not in front of them. Um and I can't remember the last question.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:51

No, I think that's pretty good. That pretty much covers it. Yeah. I think that's a I think that's a pretty strong point for us to finish on. Um, it's gonna take some some some motivated dudes and and and active, actively engaged, I think, to to really like I can see that the the the work to be done is to be like not lazy in your thinking about this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:12

And it's ongoing, right? And I think that's what's so exhausting. Yeah is if there was a policy that we could just put in place or a sign that we could just put up on the door and we're done, it would it would be a lot easier. Um, but it is ongoing everyday work in the same way that making your culture not a dickhead policy culture, it's the same thing. It's ongoing and it and it never stops.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:33

Um, did you want to share? You I know you had some resources. But do you are they specific to this part of the world?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:41

Uh yeah. So there's there's no global resources. Um in Australia, we have a wonderful, wonderful organization called Full Stop Australia. Um, so they could be reached on 1-800 full stop. Um, I don't know what they are internationally, and they would be different from state to state. Um, but yeah, I would say Google is your is your best friend. But if anything has come up for anyone throughout listening to this, um, please, please, please reach out to your supports, whether that be supports like full stop or your support network. Um, because you are not alone in this. There are many allies and friends that are here to help you through this process, whatever that process is looking like for you.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:24

Dr. Motram, very much appreciate you coming in to speak with us.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:27

Thank you very much for having me.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:28

Appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:29

Thank you.