The Hidden Cost Of BJJ Gym Drama

Track your progress, get stronger, more flexible, and do it in less time. First 2 weeks free. ⬇️
iOS: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/bulletproof-for-bjj/id6444311790
Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bulletproofforbjj&utm_source=na_Med

Get up on the BEST nutrition bar for BJJ athletes -- 
https://raisednutrition.com CODE: BULLETPROOF

Stay hydrated with Sodii & get 15% OFF: BULLETPROOF15 https://sodii.com.au/bulletproof

Get the plastic free rash guard that won't f*** you up -- https://www.alchemical.com.au

Transcript

When The Gym Splits

SPEAKER_02 0:00

When your BJJ Jim breaks up, the coach, the owner, they fall out. There's massive social fallout. One goes to one side, some go with them, others go over there. You're stuck in the middle. You don't know what to do. Let's talk about it. Because I've experienced something similar to this. A friend of the podcast reached out to me and told me they are taking some time off BJJ because of massive fallout from like their gym and just all the social ramifications of which side do you pick? And are you a bad person if you go with this person or that person? And and it's just it's really fucked up their jujitsu life because they're like, I didn't realize how much jujitsu brought peace to my life, and now it's bringing emotional chaos. And I don't feel good. My energy is all fucked up. And I was like, Yeah, it's it's brutal. And it it happens, it happens more than you probably want it to. So I wanted to talk a little bit about my own experience in this. Uh, Joe Joe, maybe you've got something you can lend to the chat. I've got some stories, and then it's so disappointing when it happens. Oh mate, it's heartbreaking. Yeah, and then just talk about how to navigate that. My my take, your take. Let's get into it. Very

Choosing Sides As A Student

SPEAKER_02 1:18

good. So my experience of this was not so much uh a gym that broke up, it was a student leaving the master situation, and I trained with both. So throwing way back to the kind of 2010, I just pretty much got my bluebelt. And I, Dan Cherubin, shout out DC Jiu Jitsu, Geelong, South Geelong. Um, I w had started training with Dan, and Dan was really like the prodigy. Uh, you know, Dan had uh competed against Hogger Gracie as a 16-year-old bluebelt and almost beat him back in like 1998 or whenever the fuck. Wow. Like 90, it could have been 1990, like six, like whenever Hodger Gracie was a bluebell. I don't even remember the date. There's a photo in the gym, it's legendary. And Dan was always very welcoming to me, and I would go down to his gym on a on a weekend, and I'd just learn a ton. I would come back up and I would train during the week at uh Peter De Bean's gym in St Kilda, and that was the OG gym, and had all the competitors and all the tough guys train there, and that's what we did back in 2008, 2009. But Dan had opened uh like a Peter De Bean gym, like an affiliate, and I'm not sure of the details, so I'm not this isn't about politics, but something happened that Pete and Dan had a falling out, and it was heartbreaking because Pete had always said that Dan had amazing jujitsu, and he always spoke very highly of him in the same way he spoke very highly of many of his students, but he had a big love because they're from that part of the world, which is like Torquay, South Coast of Victoria, whatever. And he was also a good surfer, all these things anyway. So it got to a point where it was very vitriolic, like Pete's like, nah, like fuck that, nah, like and I didn't understand the context, right? I love training with Peters, and the training was amazing, it was really hard, and you know, I got my blue belt from Pete, but I still wanted to go train with Dan. And Dan said, Look, man, if you want to come train here, you're always welcome. He's like, and you want to stay there and train under Pete? That's no problem. You're always welcome, we're bros, no problem. That's what he said. I was like, oh wow, that's cool. And then when I tried to talk to Pete about it, he's like, nah, nah. He trained here, he trained there. That's the I was like, oh, okay. Strange. It was just very, yeah, it was very like and it's something about it that made me go, you know what? I think I'd rather train with Dan. And you know, I love Peter the Bean. Shout out and respect to Peter the Bean. I'm not saying this to bag Pete, but it was just the attitude that just that it was kind of off-putting. You don't want to be around that. And but the thing was, I lived in St Kilda. The gym was five minutes down the road. Dan lived in Torquay and had his gym in South Geelong. It was like an hour and 20 minutes away.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

So to commit to that was right, three or four times a week. I'm gonna have to drive or catch the train.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

To make that happen, which is what I did for pretty much all of my blue belts through to my purple belt.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Wow, was that like a few years?

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Jesus two and a half, three years. That's a track.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

Yeah, and it was great training, man. I love being there at um Cherubin, Jiu-Jitsu, now DC, um, Geelong. Like, you know, that really built my game. I learned so much in that. But it was funny that that split forced me to make a choice. And I don't regret my choice, but it made me, I had to really double down on my commitment because of how far I had to travel. Yep. And ultimately what it meant for not being able to hang out with all my some kilda homies. So I I kind of lost a group of friends too in that jujitsu breakup. Uh, it kind of put me on the other side.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

And so and so as soon as you made that decision, Pete was like, We're done. Yeah. Yeah, you've you've gone to the other side. Yeah, I mean, we we we're on good terms.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Like over time, you know, we you know, Pete. No problem. Some heals all wounds. Yeah, maybe most jujitsu. But but the the thing about it was he he said you have to choose. Yeah, he put that on me. So, and that's that's the choice I made. But I did end up losing some mates out of it. You know what I mean? They're like, Oh, you you go with him, your dog does with us, yeah. You know, and it it's very tribal, yeah. And I think jujitsu brings that out, right? And so when you get these BJJ gym breakups, fuck, it's so tough, right? Because you you love jujitsu, you love your mates, like it's very conflicting. How about you, Joe?

Old-School Tribalism And Betrayal

SPEAKER_02 6:00

You've been through this BJJ gym breakups thing.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

I have, yeah, it's like a big pillar of your kind of existence, like the the gym and the community and your people there and the coach and whatever. And so when yeah, when that gets pulled out from underneath, you like you you do feel kind of destabilized and fucking scattered. And you also think like I'm never gonna be able to fix this or or find a replacement. The thing is, you just go to another jujitsu gym and you're probably gonna find a pretty similar community and group of people, right? Like it's that's kind of the community. It's exactly the same, but you you'll find new friends. Yeah, that's right. All that. Um, yeah, I had it at um I had it when my so when I went to Brazil as a blue belt, um, I was just taken off on a trip. I had been the the gym that I trained at was called Roots, which was one of the big sort of franchises here in New South Wales. Head head coach's name was Paulo. Um, well, I won't mention names. Let's just say his name was Paulo. Yeah, you don't have to go further. I mean, look, you know No, if you if you're from this part of town, you know him. You know, and um he he had two brown belts. Um and basically he had opened a gym, he had he had gone into business with one of them and opened the gym in Bondi Junction, right? And that was where I trained. And when I would train, I would be coached by that brown belt. Sure. So for like a few couple of years at that gym, my coach was that brown belt. Yeah, I went to Brazil and I remember at the time uh I I think I someone told me on Facebook, they're like, Man, you wouldn't believe it. Fucking huge bust up at a local tournament. Dan, Dan, who was my coach and Paulo got into an argument and Paulo slapped Dan.

SPEAKER_02 7:50

I was actually there, I actually witnessed this. You saw this, I was there. It was crazy to to see it firsthand. It happened right next to the stands where we were sitting. Right. I think we I think it was like uh Abu Dhabi Pro Trials or it was like something at Sydney Uni, I remember. Maybe, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

What yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

And uh, and it was like because basically, and this is odd, Dan had gone to Japan and gotten given his black belt by this other coach over there who we had a connection with. We had been on a training trip to Japan, Paulo, and and Dan knew the guy, and and Dan comes back wearing a black belt. Traitorous, odd, odd fucking move, but like he was an odd guy, right? He was an odd guy, and that I mean that was always gonna cause problems, right? To to sort of have your coach here and say, and then show up one day and be like, this other coach gave me a black, as if that's not gonna cause issues, right? So I don't know who was thinking what, but Paulo confronted him at a competition and slapped him, big deal, and um they they split, right? So I'm hearing about all this from afar, and I'm like, I'm like in Sao Paulo at the time at this youth hostel, and I'm like, holy shit, this is unbelievable. And anyway, fucking whatever, put that to the side and traveled in South America for you know, whatever, three months or some shit. Sick. Um when I came back, I went back to that gym. I'm like, well, that's that's the gym that I was training at. Damn's my coach there, I'm gonna keep going there. And sh not soon after, I ran into the other brown belt. Oh, the other one that had been under Polo. Oh now that brown belt had actually introduced me to jujitsu, it actually brought me into the game.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

And I ran into him, and I thought, you know, I was like, hey, fuck, let's go, we're at a bar somewhere, but he he was your Albertino of Don Nebrasco. That's right. That's right. Yeah, that's right. Forget about it. And he fucking called me a crionche. And I'm like, I'm like, wait, it's like nightclub, music, drinks. I'm like, wait, what, man? And he's like, uh fucking uh creoncheck, and it there's this other jujitsu guy there, and he's like, bro, he's calling you a creonche, and I'm like, what the fuck is that? And he's like, hey, it's like Portuguese, it means traitor, and I'm like, oh, that's so lame, right?

SPEAKER_02 10:07

But but actually, just quickly on the creonche thing, it comes from the novella, like the telenovela, a character who is the traitor. Oh, this one of the most famous characters of all time. He is the traitor, and his name is Creonche. Yeah, that's where it comes from.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Yeah, okay. Anyway, okay, yeah, yeah. You know what they Creonche, right? That's what they say, a creoncheon. Yeah, so and so I I mean, I look, I my did you then just punch on my heart? My heart defend my honor wasn't particularly broken. I was just like, oh wow, like he's obviously like whatever, really upset over it, and it seems pretty pretty fucking wild. But but that was it. It was like line in the sand, you train with them, and fucking we're enemies now. Look, 20 20 years ago, there was no cross-training.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

No, that's right. You just you had your gym, that was your tribe, that was your style, and you would go to war with other gyms. Yep. You know, there were cross-training as the way it is now is very free and open. Like, especially in Sydney, I think we were like more even more so than Melbourne, even though Melbourne never we always looked at Melbourne and we're like, we should be more like Victoria.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Like they're they seem kind of cool, they fucking don't mind training with each other, yeah. But anyway, it was it was so silly, and it it, you know, it was kind of sparked a sort of a rivalry.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

The rivalry didn't actually it didn't actually amount to much turn into a existed in everyone's the warriors where you know you you had your five guys and they're thunder in the street. Warriors come out to play.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

I mean, it was a it was a little bats and shit, a little bit of that competition and shit, you know, but but really it was like I mean it was so fucking stupid, right? But but it was just an example of like it could have been fine, but people had to get upset about it and be like, this is a huge deal, and you are now our enemy. And uh did you lose mates over that? Like was it well. I lost that mate. Sure. Yeah, I lost I lost that mate, and and I, you know, and I've I've like Have you reconciled since you've seen each other? I've run into him and he gives me the cold shoulder. Oh girl, I it is it is it is like really yeah, and I mean look, it was it was it's like um Chaz Parliamentary. You know, you made the reference, Donnie Brasco. You remember Chaz uh Chaz Parliamentary, uh his fucking um a Bronx tale. Yes, he plays Sonny and he's fucking giving him he's giving him the lesson. Yeah. And uh there's a guy, there's a kid that owes Calodero money. Yes, and Cologo's talking with Sonny, they're hanging out, and then he's like, fuck, there's that motherfucker, and then he's like, hey, and he chases after the kid. The kid's like, Oh, I'll bring you money for you, Sue. Calodro, I gotta go, I gotta go. Like runs down the street and he's like, That motherfucker. And Sonny's like, what are you upset about? And he's like, guy owes me 10 bucks for it. He's like, he's like, Man, 10 bucks, that motherfucker's out of your life. He's like, that's the best investment you ever made. Yeah. And and I'm like, yeah, like it was a blessing. And like, you know, that that that individual is clearly a bonehead.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Questionable.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

Right? Like, if if you're gonna, if you're gonna kind of whatever, tear up sort of friendships over that sort of thing, then it's like, oh, probably better it ended there. Um, so you know, uh disappointing, but um, I don't lose sleep over it.

Sponsor Break Gear And Electrolytes

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Sure. But just goes to show like that, like that shit happens all the time in jujitsu, especially with the more fucking old school crew, and it's like you might ask yourself, why do I look like John Danaher in the recording booth?

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Because I'm rocking my alchemical, beautiful hemp gi. Ladies and gentlemen, this is a world first, it's lightweight, the hemp feel is immaculate, and that's the thing I want to get to. Not only does it feel amazing, but under pressure, this gi stands up lightweight, dries quickly, and no stink. This is the amazing thing. I'm a sweaty guy. You put this thing in a bag full of sweat, you get it out, you put it through the wash, it does not stink. It feels amazing, it smells amazing, and it's good for you too. You're not soaked in plastic, you're not using artificial chemicals, and you're not using cotton that is destroying the environment. These hemp gis from Alchemical are something you have to feel to know the difference. Go to alchemicalflightware.com.au and use the code bulletproof and you will get 15% off. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Hey, if I can give you my honest recommendation for one of the best supplements I've implemented in my daily, particularly for my jujitsu training, it's sodium. It's these electrolytes. We talk about them all the time. They've sponsored the show for some time, but it's excellent. Flavor's great, but more importantly, the electrolytes are exactly what my body wants in a hard, sweaty jujitsu session. It replenishes uh my system with all the stuff that I need after all of that sweat. Uh, magnesium, potassium, salt, it's great stuff. You can get yourself a bunch and you can get yourself a discount if you go to sodi sodou i.com.au and you use the code bulletproof15, you get 15% off your order.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

But

Contracts Territory And Opening Gyms

SPEAKER_02 15:07

I think what's more common now, yeah, because jujitsu says saturated, right? There's so many gyms. There is no regulation around, like, so for example, like it's very common for someone to build up an instructor, say a purple belt who's really good, they get the brown belt, and then maybe the coach is sitting on that brown belt for a long time, and then that brown belt just goes, you know what? Fuck this, I'm gonna open my own shit around the corner. Traitorous, but also it's all in the game, you know. Like, I would definitely say that you can't begrudge someone for wanting to do their own thing, but there's so many jujitsu gyms everywhere, right? Like, you don't have to be a black belt to run a gym now, and I'm not I'm not speaking bad of anyone who wants to move away from the gym they grew up in to do their own thing. I have nothing against that, but the the way in which it's done can really dictate perception and relationships and you know, yeah. There's ways to approach certain things, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

That's right. There's a couple things I feel on that, which like one is that you know, the onus is on the like I've always said, as if you're a black belt and you whatever are bringing other people up through the ranks, and you are surprised when one of your black or brown belts wants to leave to open their own gym, you are a fucking idiot. That's ridiculous. Like that is of some like everyone has their own dreams, and of course, they're like, I fucking love training in this gym and this community. I'm gonna go and do that and make that my life as well. The kids are gonna grow up and they've got to leave home and gotta start their own family.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

So so getting upset over that is just ridiculous. However, what you see the the smart gyms do is they have a pathway strategy, yeah. Like, oh hey, cool, let's do it together. Let's territory, let's do a fucking affiliation or a franchise or whatever, right? And that's what you see, I think, from the it was almost like we had the first generation of teams, and then now we're seeing like the second, third generation, like think about Legacy and SJJA. Sure. And they obviously, I'm guessing, do a very good job of fostering the business amongst their coaches, right? They build coaches up and they say there's a future for you. Yep, we'll get you there. Yep. And so that's great that that it appears that that most of the operators have evolved on that front. Um I can't remember what my second point was. Oh, the other part was that I mean the onus is on the the coach who employs, like the gym owner who employs a coach, the onus on them is to have a contract in place to state that. Yeah, terrible. When you leave here, you can't open a gym fucking next door. Hang on, I just let me speak on this real quick. Well, let me just finish the point though, because I like I think that's totally a fair thing in business to just be like, look, I'm fine for you to go and do your own thing. You just can't fucking do it right here. Yeah. So whatever, a kilometer, five, whatever, you know, you figure that out. Um, when you don't have something like that in place and it's never even a conversation that you've had, yeah, you can't be surprised when someone does that. They're gonna be like, Well, I'm coaching here full time, I got a bunch of people that love me. They're gonna leave with me. They all live in the area, it makes sense for me to be on this block. Yeah, you know, and it's unfortunate, right? But you you've got to have structures in place to avoid that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Well, without naming, uh, a pretty famous uh franchise in the Sydney scene had very strict rules about this and forced their students 10Ks out from the home gym. 10K's pretty far. Yeah, you you know uh one of these students is someone you know very well, Joe. Oh, you know all of them actually. Oh um but the the master's tight grip on the control was undermined when he allowed a senior student after many years of waiting to break free, just open down the road and let them do that. Oh yeah, even though he forced all his other black belts to go miles out. Oh yeah. Then he's just like, oh, I'm gonna lose this student who I've had for 20 years. All right, you can go down the street. And that's where everyone else left. Yeah, and now that empire is completely crumbling. It's kind of crazy because that's the thing. I definitely understand the rules, it's fine, but this actually made it really hard for those students who are our generation of black belt, right? Yeah. To run their schools because they had to just find really kind of obscure locations and build them up, which they did and have.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

And then I mean it's actually pretty cool because all their locations have been. Oh, they've done it. They've done great. And they're in, they're just other parts of town, but they're in like fucking centers.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

But I I think here's the double standard, you can't have double standards.

SPEAKER_02 19:53

It's so hard that a special exception was made for one person when all the others had to work their asses off to you know get their territories right. Yeah. I look, I I it's so hard, I think, is because it's this um personal conflict between your affection and your sense of loyalty for your coach or you know, the head of the school, and then also maybe the other instructor who has also worked really hard and is very dedicated and kind of deserves to do their thing. When they fall in the conflict, and then it's so funny because people are like, Oh, yeah, no, no egos in jujitsu. Bullshit. Everybody's working hard, everybody's got a sense of self, everybody has their own level of entitlement, whatever that looks like, and people are not gonna get on forever. They might be cool for 10 years and then not, they might run a podcast for six years and then not.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Well, one day you fucking open up Spotify and there's no more episodes. And then it's like, what's this? Bulletproof for tenacity. Did it even happen?

unknown 20:56

What the fuck?

SPEAKER_01 20:58

Joey's Joey's equality. Joey's recipe book for success we talk to love in the bedroom in the use of performance enhancing.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Like it. How to get the best photos to print your face on your own shirt by Joseph Worthing. And no one said anything yet. Hey, hey, the Ryan Gosling of Jiu-Jitsu. That's a great photo. And actually, Joey didn't make this, just for clarity, it's gonna be in the comments. Joey did not make this shirt. A fan of Joey's slash friend made it for his birthday, and it's an immaculate shirt. That's right. It's got the little, it's a lifestyle detail on the bottom. Eat to win, give him a spin, give him a spin.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Heat to win. This is gonna be the new podcast. There you go. That broad back.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

Amazing.

Making Peace And Staying Training

SPEAKER_02 21:48

But yeah, look, I think I I think the the fortunate thing when it's great when you are able to set these things up and you're able to maintain friendships and professional relationships, but that is such a hard juggle. And when you're the kid of divorced parents, it's fucked because you like you don't want to choose sides, you love both parties, you're like, what do I do here? So I think ultimately my choice was made by the intent and the spirit of the person, which was more accepting, and that made me think I want to be more like that. Now, don't get me wrong, I am someone who's kind pretty unfortunately, as I've been in the past, fairly black and white, and I'm kind of like either like fuck them or we're great. You know, I've been like that, but I I tend to try to surround myself with people who I feel are better people than me in terms of being more accepting, being more empathetic, because I want to be more like that. And so my choice was as much about jujitsu as it was about trying to be around someone who was maybe nicer. I don't know, you know what I mean? Like it and so I think what what's important when you make that choice in a gym breakup, you've got to think like, who are the kind of people I'm trying to be around, you know? Like, don't don't worry about the other elements.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Yeah. Yeah, and the other thing, like the other consideration is like, you know, say you were willing to make that journey right an hour and a half each day. A lot of people wouldn't. A lot of people won't. And if it's if it's a case that like you just have to make a choice that is logistically gonna allow you to continue jujitsu, then so be it. Just stay on the gym. Just fucking do it. Like it's fine. And and anyone that holds grudges or whatever about any decisions made there is pretty much a fucking idiot. It's a waste of time, yeah. And so do what's good by you. Know that you will find another community and you will find more awesome people there, and you know, whatever coaches, maybe awesome, maybe not, but there's heaps of good people in jujitsu, and and going to another gym is just an opportunity to meet more. And over time, you will reconnect with old training partners and shit. And yeah, you know, the ones that stick around, right? Like in the game. After a while, it's um all like for most people, all of that shit fades away, and it's just like, oh, we've been here for ages. How good's this?

SPEAKER_02 24:10

We're in it, yeah. And I I think that's that's the thing ultimately is whatever keeps you in jujitsu is the right decision.