Shed Geek Podcast

The Art and Science of Selling Outdoor Structures: Insights from a 14-Year Industry Veteran PART 2

• Shed Geek Podcast • Season 5 • Episode 34

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When it comes to the shed industry, the relationship between manufacturers and dealers can make or break a business. Rami joins Shannon to dive deep into the often unspoken tensions and opportunities that exist in these critical partnerships.

The conversation tackles head-on the reality that not all dealers approach their shed business with the same level of commitment. Some make it their primary income source, investing heavily in growth, while others view it as supplemental income alongside other ventures. As Rami points out, "Both scenarios can work well if expectations are clearly established on both sides."

Commission structures emerge as a major pain point for many dealers. At just 10% commission, even those selling a million dollars annually struggle to reinvest in marketing and growth. "That 10% needs to adjust," Rami asserts, recommending dealers negotiate higher rates or diversify with complementary products like carports that can create multiple revenue streams from the same customer.

Perhaps the most powerful segment explores the 80/20 rule in dealer networks, where typically 80% of business comes from just 20% of dealers. This reality forces tough decisions about resource allocation and relationship management. "Facts are unwavering and immovable," Rami states bluntly, "If you factually are not doing your job, I will factually find someone who will."

The digital transformation of retail receives special attention, with both hosts emphasizing that relying solely on drive-by traffic is no longer viable. "It's not 1996 anymore," Rami reminds listeners, noting that even basic websites have become affordable and accessible for businesses of all sizes.

Whether you're a manufacturer looking to optimize your dealer network or a dealer seeking to strengthen your position and profitability, this episode delivers actionable insights that could transform your approach to the shed business. Subscribe to the Shed Geek podcast for more industry conversations that tackle the real challenges facing shed professionals today.

For more information or to know more about the Shed Geek Podcast visit us at our website.

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Studio Sponsor: Union Grove Lumber

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Shed Geek:

Thank you for listening to part two of a two-part series here at the Shed Geek podcast. If you missed part one, just go back to last week and listen for more engaging conversation here at the Shed Geek podcast. But I'm going to run through a couple of these real quick and just give your you know you've got your answers on there for anybody who wants to go back but just a couple of thoughts, what you might see if you were to join, like the Shed Sales Professionals page. You know some of the things that we might talk about on there.

Shed Geek:

But this is I did like this little list of 10 and all. Number one this was the question I asked and it's kind of in regard to how I'm wanting to do a column and my next column for shed business journal to kind of have these conversations with the people who are in it to talk about that. But I put in here number one not all dealers are created equal. Some sell as a primary means of income, some sell because they have five acres and they like the idea proposed to them by a sales manager to make a little extra cash. What's your thoughts on that? Rami, does that, given your experience, I'll be quiet.

Rami Al-Chacar:

Yeah well, no, no no need to be quiet. This is your game. No, so either venue is good, either scenario is good. Uh, you just have to know what the expectation is on both sides. Um, so, if you have somebody that's retired and just looking to make a little bit of side income, there's your expectation. If you've got somebody who is this is my bread and butter and I like I'm sinking my teeth into this thing and I'm like, okay, here's your expectation, here is your uh, maybe extra one or two demos, I mean, it's just, it depends on the scenario. Both are really good um, opportunities, but it's just.

Rami Al-Chacar:

You know, don't set, you don't go in expecting somebody who's kind of retired and not really you know into it all the way to, to blow your sock, the socks off of anything. Now, it doesn't mean that you won't have lightning in a bottle and just you know, be mind blown. But it is people in like, on the older side of the of this industry, uh, who are on the older, older side in this industry. There's a lot of technology now and there's some hurdles and whatnot. So, it kind of adds, uh, a layer of complexity, because now you're as the manufacturer, for example, are having to train your retailer how to use a computer, you know. It's just you know, and so it just.

Rami Al-Chacar:

It depends on what your expectation is.

Rami Al-Chacar:

But as long as you set your expectations and lay it out and they can accept or not accept, and same with the other side, hey, this is, you know, you're ambitious, you're hungry, you're eager, you're wanting to make these sales. This is what I need from you to get this extra little bit of commission, or get this extra little bit, this special discount, like the company that we, some of the companies we work with, occasionally they'll have specific discounts that are catered directly to us, um, and you know, so you kind of push along that that way a little bit. I've even um discussed some having like an express lane, like if you have a million- dollar dealer and you have a like thousand- dollar dealer, uh, let them have that two to four week turnaround time instead of this guy that's selling a onesie, twosie and it's little tops and little eight by tens or whatever. Like, maybe give them the four to six weeks. You know, and so it just, it depends on um, your approach and the expectation. But as long as it's made clear and as long as it's being reciprocated, then then you're cruising.

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Shed Geek:

Perfect, I appreciate your answer.

Shed Geek:

Let's see Number two. It's tough for a consignment dealer who receives 10% commission to invest in an effective marketing plan, even if they're selling a million a year. And I'll kind of follow up with some thoughts there and then let you run with it. You know, at 10%, a million a year, you've got $100,000 in gross revenue. Don't know what you want to consider. A good, healthy income Depends on, maybe, your financial situation If you're retired, as you said, if you've got a family or whatever.

Shed Geek:

But there's quite a bit of expenses that come out. If you're having to cover your own lot rent, maybe you buy the building come out. If you're having to cover your own lot rent, maybe you buy the building there. Maybe you're buying a property. But you know, uh, this is something that we run against in in marketing. Uh, is people struggle. People struggle even at a million dollars to be able to afford a comprehensive plan to be beneficial is that, is that their responsibility? The manufacturers, the manufacturers already putting all this, as you said, all of these sheds out here 50 times 50, and they've got a ton of money into them. So, it just, you know, the conversation stays in the air and I'm curious your thoughts on and others thoughts on that.

Rami Al-Chacar:

Yeah. So, for anything, 10% is kind of small now in comparison to what is out there. I mean, especially if you sell a million dollars a year, like you said, your take home for your business is $100,000. Taxes are coming out of that. Obviously, rent is coming out of that, I mean. So go ahead and probably take $20,000, at least probably for the year, out off the top again. So, you're at 80, not, and then you have your taxes. So, you're probably in the 70 or 60 range now and you haven't paid light bill, you haven't paid water bill, you haven't paid internet. So that 10% needs to adjust.

Rami Al-Chacar:

So, what I would recommend is a couple of things. One is always try to negotiate to get a higher commission tier. Now, sometimes the doors close on that, and if it is, then either deal with it and find another venue, which we'll address in a second, or maybe they'll say yes, and if you can go even from 10% to 12%, for you that's a 20% raise, just that 2%, and so that goes a long way. So, if you can get them to 15%, well, now we're doing some business. So now, obviously I'm just making up some percentages here. I don't, you know, everybody has different scenarios, um, but uh, 10% is kind of like an entry level. Let's see how this goes. Kind of percentage, I, I, I would be very hesitant to stay on that very long, unless you're just kind of doing a onesie, twosie kind of thing.

Rami Al-Chacar:

Uh, now, on the other side of things, this is going back to again the original conversation, which is that's also why you have supplemental products. You don't want just sheds, you need uh in the business. Well, in the finance world they call it diversifying your portfolio to where the shed economy might tank but carport economy doesn't, for example, and so you still have something to pay all your bills and to pay your employees, to pay yourself. And then you add another product. So, I've seen there's a million different things four wheelers, lawnmowers, you know whatever. Golf carts, whatever you know. And you don't want that third thing to really cannibalize anything else. But you know you're setting yourself up to where, okay, I get $100,000 for sheds, I get another 50 or 60 or 100,000, some dollars in commissions from carports, and then I have, I don't know, 20,000 or 30,000 extra, uh, 20,000 extra dollars from commissions on this supplemental something. Uh, and now you're less stressed about you know where you're going to. Uh, you know, get your next sale from cause you're, you're.

Rami Al-Chacar:

You're not just solidifying your, you know the business side of things, but you're also setting yourself up to where, uh, your scope is larger. So now more people are attracted to your business for a variety of things. And then something I've run into really in there in the recent hit, in my recent history, is you'll have a customer come in and now they're not just buying one thing. We have this mentality where somebody's coming in and buying a shed, and well, they just spent literally all their money and now they're I'll see you in either three months to go pick up your shed for repo, or we'll see you in five years or whatever the term is, so you can get another thing. But in reality, there are customers who they've been saving, or they just make good money, or they get approved for $20,000. And the first thing they're looking at is a $10,000 shed. Now you're getting a $5,000 carport with the same color scheme that goes in their backyard, and so now you made $15,000 in sales instead of 10. So, it's 50% increase.

Shed Geek:

Service after the sale man Service after the sale brings so many people. It's so important and I just don't even know if we really. There's probably some that have focused on it. No great answer. Appreciate the thoughts there. Number three shed companies already invest. We talked about this right. They already invest thousands of dollars into a shed lot. How can they possibly be responsible for also marketing the products? That's the lot owner's job. Again, not saying I agree with these things, I'm just stating things I've heard said before.

Rami Al-Chacar:

What's your thoughts on this? So any relationship needs to be symbiotic, meaning we need to be reliant upon each other. Now again, we're talking earlier about setting the expectation. If the expectation is set in the initial stages, where, no, this is, we've given you at this price, you sell it for this price, this other price, and then you handle your own marketing Okay, sure, but if it's something where, okay, we just got thrown this major economic curveball, let's take this to the drawing board a little bit.

Rami Al-Chacar:

And really frustrates me is it has taken me all 14 years just about to get quality photos from manufacturers on stuff so I can use for, like, carport sales and things like that. It's out there, but it's always something like the installer took it and it's at a jagged angle or whatever, and it's just, you know it's getting it's free, you know, just have a picture. Once the project's done and everything's cleaned up, take a picture or two. That way we're not having to try travel all around the East coast to every customer. So, getting that as a free thing that manufacturers can provide and doesn't cost them a dime. It's just they're not doing that, or at least a lot of them are not. Um, so it would be nice to kind of have something like that, but especially when you're thrown from circling back where we're talking about a second ago uh, this big economic curveball where no one knows what to expect. Covid reassembled our cultural DNA and also our economic DNA, so everyone's still trying to rebound from all of that.

Rami Al-Chacar:

There is no reason why a dealer shouldn't be unwilling to put forth any effort towards their marketing, but there should also be zero reasons why a manufacturer cannot reciprocate their efforts, especially in today's climate. Now again, if this is how you want to do it, then fine, but I'm here to make money. At the end of the day, as long as you're making money, as long as I'm making money, that's what matters. And so, um, uh, so the? I guess my short answer to that would be never, uh, never, be content with where you are. And it's like you know, if we can, if we can do this, then let's do it, and if we can make some money, I don't care how we do it, as long as it's legal, at least then do it.

Shed Geek:

I've been a big fan of the co-op programs that I've seen, sometimes throughout the industry. That really goes a long way, especially for a dealer coming in to kind of feel like they have the support from the company who's willing to engage or able to engage in something like that. It's a struggle for the business owner, the manufacturer and the dealer a lot of times to make it. We're all trying to make it right.

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Shed Geek:

Many of them don't want to, and even if the lead is good, they think it's a bad customer if they don't pick up the phone when they're ready to call them and buy right away.

Rami Al-Chacar:

If you have a salesperson that will not call a customer, you do not have a salesperson. Big statement Powerful statement it's just you part of sales. Well, I said it in one of the questions like sales is more than just sales. You're an educator and you're guiding your customer to a solution that either they've never thought of before or have been dreaming about, and you're making it a reality.

Rami Al-Chacar:

So, you're leading them here. So, there needs to be a paradigm shift with that. Now I am not talking about cold calling. I have a moral line that I won't cross and one of those is, well, a set of moral lines. I have a lot. I have a lot of moral lines but I'm not going to cross with. I'm not going to call, cold call people. They didn't give me their information, they didn't want to, and I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about when they express interest. They voluntarily gave us information about a product. You have zero reason not to call them. You have zero reason not to try to help them get what they are begging someone to give them. So, I've always been frustrated with the sales mindset of that. I don't want to say frustrated, but it's always almost discouraging when a salesperson, who's good, is too timid to move. There's got to be action involved and there's got to be that momentum and the customer will gravitate towards that as well. Now, obviously, you don't abuse it Like.

Rami Al-Chacar:

I used to work for a in my year gap that I told you about, I took a little bit of a break. I went and sold used cars. I did not make it a year, I made it 11 months, and they would barrage my customers with phone calls. I mean just an absolute barrage. And then on top of that, they would want me to call them as well. So, one day I took a step back and I went. They had a little trackers for everything and I took the number of phone calls it took for me to close a customer versus the ones that never answered at all, and my average phone call per customer before they purchased in this scenario was two, and they were wanting me to call them 40. You know, it's just like. So we're not talking about abusing your customers, we're talking about engaging them and drawing them in and then giving them something that they already need.

Shed Geek:

And there's a big difference. There was a time I was going to sell cars Rami need. And there's a big difference. There was a time I was going to sell cars Rami and I was sort of sharing my mentality with the person who would be doing the hiring. I don't know what his title was, but I kind of told him about how I'm on this new journey and I had found God and was moving forward in my life and my faith and trying to operate out of that and find maybe my purpose in life. And I didn't think maybe selling cars was it, but I needed a place to land, earn money, get solid, and so I was just kind of sharing a little bit of my faith story and things like that. And the guy just point blank, point blank told me he said you don't want to work here because it's going to be a conflict with your morals. I can tell yeah.

Rami Al-Chacar:

It was just like we do what we can to get the sale.

Shed Geek:

Well, that's what he offered me the job. He said you can work here if you want. I just don't think you're going to like it, and I was like I think you're right. I think, if you're that honest with me, he's like we do whatever it takes to get the sale, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. Your morals are going to get in the way of that. I can tell I was just like wow.

Rami Al-Chacar:

People will disagree with this and I'm fine with that. I am very confident in this. I will lose a sale. Before I lie to a customer Again, I will say this I like my sleep at night. I don't need much, but the little that I do sleep, I like it.

Rami Al-Chacar:

I don't like stressing I don't like being distracted, so I will not lie to the customer and I will lose the sale and have lost sales before. I have to mislead them. And I think when a customer can sense that they they're grabbing, they gravitate toward that. And there's some that won't and some that don't sense it, and that's okay, it's, for me it's worth it and I, I hold, I hold to that.

Shed Geek:

Let's take a look at the concern or the ownership side a little bit here now on question number five, or statement number five. I'm the owner of these buildings, I produce them, I put them out there on these lots and if the dealer doesn't work the lead then we will do it in-house ourselves. They can either get with the program or they can move on. What's your thoughts on that, Rami?

Rami Al-Chacar:

uh 100 like if, if I'm, if well, it goes back to earlier If I'm a manufacturer providing leads to someone and they're like I'm putting forth effort, I'm doing my part and actually doing you a favor and you're not wanting absolutely, I would 100% support selling that lead. They're going to buy from somewhere and it's gonna be from my company. Whether you do it for my company or we do it for my company is up to the salesperson. But, um, um, yeah, if, if, if, as a manufacturer, or even as a retail like a, like a corporate office for retailer if you're disseminating these leads to your sales team and they're not doing their job, then someone is going to get this sale. Yeah, I have no issues with that at all.

Shed Geek:

Is there an obligation for the manufacturer to share some or all of that commission to that dealer who has a protected radius? Or is that lead and the full commission? Does that belong to the company? Now, If the company has already attempted to get the dealer to work the lead, they've bought the lead, they've spent the money to get it. Here you go, what do they get?

Rami Al-Chacar:

Zero, zero obligation. Now, on the flip side of that coin is if this is a good sales person or sales team and just I've even seen this like. I have a manufacturer that does this for us If they sell something like they had a customer that just randomly called their manufacturing facility and made that sale if they, in turn, turn around and find out that we had initiated contact with this customer or in any form or fashion within reason, obviously, then they'll issue us full commission. So that's the other side of things. But if, if you have, uh, the alternative would be just firing them.

Rami Al-Chacar:

Honestly, even they're, this is part of their core job. So, if they're not doing it, then there's a problem and there needs to be a conversation, the all. But as an alternative and really a courteous alternative is, instead of and it's a little bit abrasive but instead of like terminating their, their employment, you're just keeping the sale. You know, I think it's a fair trade. Now, it's not always black and white like that and I fully understand, but at the end of the day, you have a job. If you're not doing it, then someone else needs to

Rami Al-Chacar:

So that's my um abrasive but accurate uh um approach to that

Shed Geek:

it's kind of uh, it's kind of a similar, like the answer that that you gave, kind of answers. Number six, you know, as a dealer I believe I should receive commission even if the building sold and my radius, whether I work the lead or not, not, if a company sells it, I still receive commission. So you kind of answered that one.

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Shed Geek:

Number seven I'm good with people. I work a lead when they come into the lot. You know I'm good with people when people come to my lot. I work that lead, I'm good. I'm good at that. I close pretty good and I make the company plenty of money by doing that and I'm happy with my effort. And that's all they're getting from me. They don't like it. They can come get their sheds. I don't want to do all this tech stuff.

Rami Al-Chacar:

Well, my experience with the shed sales arena is they probably would not have said sheds yeah, true story. So, I am all about reciprocation. If I am pouring into something, I you know I don't always need the I'm not, it's not tit for tat, but I don't need like the exact amount in return. I just need to see some sort of reciprocation. So, if I have a dealer that is, hey, they're selling and that's all they want to focus on and they don't want to answer questions, they don't want to train anybody else, they don't want to focus on anything.

Rami Al-Chacar:

We actually had an employee with our company that was very similar to that, where she was very, very, very good at her job but didn't want to answer a lot of questions, and that's okay.

Rami Al-Chacar:

Um, where it becomes less okay is where, um, they're, they're good salesperson and they need favors and they need things and it's just need, need, need and the reason they're selling so much because you just keep giving them favors and you get nothing back except for a bunch of sales, but at a much lower rate because you get a much discounts, like that. That's not quite the same thing. But again, from before the expectation what is your expectation? As long as long as that expectation is being reciprocated, then no harm, no foul. Expectation is being reciprocated, then no harm, no foul. Now, me personally, I have a tendency to go and this by no means is tooting the horn but I try to go above and beyond, no matter what I'm doing, and I'll dig deep. And if I have a coworker that's new, or we have somebody that's training and they have questions, then I'm going to give them as thorough as an answer as I can, because I want them to succeed.

Shed Geek:

Yeah, I like it. I like it. Number eight I've got this one before. It may be surprising to almost even kind of hear it, but I didn't give anything with it. I just straight comment that I've heard. I don't need a Web- site ads or any of that stuff. We do just fine without it.

Rami Al-Chacar:

I mean, are they using carrier pigeons? How are customers getting hold of that Carrier?

Shed Geek:

pigeons. That would be a new one.

Rami Al-Chacar:

I mean, come on, man, it doesn't surprise me that there are still people out there that just are sticks in the mud. But I mean, my exact comment was it's not 1996 anymore Like, get that website. You can build a website for less than $100. And just so customers can go somewhere other than your Facebook page that you have one picture of because you forgot to update everything. You know, it's just, you have to do it and it is super inexpensive to get started. It's relatively inexpensive to pay someone to do it for you. I mean, you can get one built like a basic one for under a thousand dollars, if you know, if you know what you're doing.

Rami Al-Chacar:

But you know, this is, this is a new era, it's a new economy. There's a lot of aggressive online market uh, marketing companies and their marketing teams and you know getting. I've seen upwards of 40 and 50 percent discounts on stuff like this week. You know, and so you know it's, it's getting super, super aggressive. So, you're, you're, you're eliminating your chances of getting someone from completely different market. If you are not investing in something like that, if you're solely relying on your drive-by traffic, you are missing the boat.

Shed Geek:

I like it. Number nine I'm a manufacturer. I've got a responsibility to my dealer network. We try to be fair but if they're not willing to work with us as we grow and new ways of selling become available, I kind of feel stuck. I don't want to lose sales to other companies who are making these of feel stuck. I don't want to lose sales to other companies who are making these changes, but also don't want to upset my dealer network either.

Rami Al-Chacar:

So, I think this is where I introduced the 80-20 rule. 80% of your business is going to come from 20% of your customers and vice versa, or dealers. I mentioned in there that I actually ran numbers one time. It's not for the company I'm with. It was a different company and 90% of their business was coming from 10% of their dealers.

Shed Geek:

That's still very accurate for most places and for this particular, and you know for this particular company you're talking about.

Rami Al-Chacar:

You would lose $3 million if you cut 90% of their, of their dealers, and they would have well over $20 million to play with, which, by the way, you're also cutting probably 90% of your headaches, because, those little guys are the ones that are, uh, trying to get you to attach stuff to houses and trying to get you to, you know, build this weird thing that you know that costs you $2,000.

Rami Al-Chacar:

I mean just this little, tiny, little piddly stuff. And whereas these prominent dealers that know what they're doing and that are educated in that care about the industry and whatnot, you know, they're not asking any questions, need very little in return and they're selling you, you know, $2 million in a year. You know, by themselves and that. So that facts over feelings on us and it again. I can be a little bit on it and it again. I can be a little bit on the abrasive side. But if the fact, at the end of the day, if the fact is they're not selling, you got people that are and it's time to move. It's time to move on.

Shed Geek:

Isn't that a Ben Shapiro line? You know facts, don't care about your feelings. I'm a, I'm a big Shapiro, guy. Yeah, no, he's great.

Rami Al-Chacar:

But, yeah, facts are unwavering and facts are immovable and no matter how you feel about these things, it's not going to change anything. And so, if you factually are not doing your job, then I will factually find someone that will, and it's, it is, it's at the end of the day, it's, it's that simple. Now, that doesn't mean and I also clarified this don't be compassionate, because people are people and people make mistakes. People have rough years. They have uh like, uh, um, back in 2020, I got divorced. Well, of course, of course, like I'm going to be in this tough moment, but you know, if there is a pattern of no reciprocation, bad temper, no sales, just why? Why are we? Are we latching to these people? It's not. It's not necessary and honestly, there's a biblical principle to these people. It's not necessary and honestly, it's a biblical principle to let these people go. You know, we're pruning the tree here so that the rest of the tree can grow, and it's-.

Shed Geek:

And what a great statement, what a great just PowerPoint Like. That's a nice little presentation there. It's biblical. You have to prune sometimes and we're so stuck on wanting to be agreeable and kind and nice that we're unwilling to prune right, yep, yeah, people.

Rami Al-Chacar:

I might get so boxy here for a second, but Christians in particular sometimes focus so much on the compassion side that they forget that there is a job to be done. And we get caught in the weeds with all their feelings and we want to make sure and it's just. And, yes, people have feelings, yes, it needs to be acknowledged, yes, but at the end of the day there's a job to be done. And it's the same thing in the business side, like we have to make money. We're not going to make money if we're sitting here trying to scratch everybody's back all the time. I guess, just, it's not a reasonable expectation to set. And so, when you come to terms with that and you're, and you embrace that, then making these hard decisions becomes a little bit easier because at the end of the day, you're, you're, ultimately you're bettering.

Rami Al-Chacar:

Like a lot of times, these people that are unwilling to move on things are abusing, and I mean that in a literal sense. You're the girls in your office and there are there. That is one of my cardinal rules you do not abuse the girls in the office. Like, you take care of those girls and they're the ones that are chewing them out all the time, over and over about something, and it's like it's not acceptable, like it never is acceptable. And so you know you getting rid of this person is good for a couple of things, because it makes work life better, but they're probably going to stay in the industry. So now you're just giving that bad employee to your competitor.

Shed Geek:

No, I like it. I love your well thought out answers that you even included on there. Matter of fact, I'm an hour eight minutes in and I'm like, hey, we're going to make this two 40 minute segments instead of one hour and 10 minute segment. I'm I was going to save number 10 and say, if you want to know, go to the page or ask to be on it, but I'm gonna go ahead and do it. I'm going to go ahead and give you this one, uh, and then we'll wrap up before too long, cause I think we could still get an easy two part conversation out of this, and I don't want to, and I don't want to say more, people are going to say par for the course.

Shed Geek:

I just want you to know that between me and you, brother.

Shed Geek:

There's no escape. You know, like we. Just I think we enjoy, we enjoy the conversation and that's OK.

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Shed Geek:

So, I'm gonna go ahead and do number 10. Yeah, because I hear this a lot. You know I I'm a 1099 independent contractor. Uh, you know, I mean I sell sheds, but I, you know, I started my own LLC. I got my little business going, all that good stuff. I'm trying to grow my brand right here in town, my little neck of the woods. I'm spending money on marketing and other things. Lot rent but I'm being told I can't sell other products on my lot if I want to receive buildings on consignment from my supplier. But it's getting tough to make a living just selling one product for one company, and if I shut down they'll just move on without me. So I kind of feel stuck. What do I do?

Rami Al-Chacar:

Again, layered answer. Um, if the expectation is set from before and that manufacturer is reciprocating and but they're just picky than that, than that, then you know what you were expecting. And if you need something different, than move on now. There's always the opportunity, because at the end of the day it just comes down to money. Like, am I going to make money or am I not From both sides manufacturing retailer? But if you can guarantee, hey, I can get you a million and a half this year, pick a number and sales. You know, if I can hit this mark, is it OK if I bring in this other line of product or whatever, then you're back to business. It kind of also circles back to the first or second point you're talking about from before, where if you just can't bring in another shed industry, another shed market, for example, then introduce other products. They don't own you, they just own that part of that segment of the industry. So sell literally anything else and just kind of bring that in there On the other side, if they're just so inflexible and you're just trying to make a living and they're not helping you, then fine, they are just as replaceable as a manufacturer as you are as a dealer, and if they are so big to where they don't need your business, then you don't need theirs either and you can find a good local company or find another manufacturer. It took us 12, 13 years to get to where we had a comfortable nest of suppliers on the steel side, suppliers on the shed sides and suppliers on all the other stuff that you know that we have to offer, and it took a lot of cutting bait, took a whole lot of cutting bait.

Rami Al-Chacar:

Again, facts over feelings, like the fact that is, I need to make money and if I can't make money, then I will find a way to make that happen. And you know, no harm, no foul. You know it's just. You know I don't. You know I appreciate foul. You know it's just. You know I don't. You know I appreciate what you have done for me so far, but it's time for you to come get your stuff. I have found a replacement.

Rami Al-Chacar:

Um and uh again, there are scenarios in between, but um, but at the end of the day, you are here to make money, you are here to make a living and you have, if you have, to put food on the family, on the table for your family, you have to put a roof over your head. I mean, uh, and you need to go on vacation and you need to have fun, you need to see the world. I mean, it's not just the essentials, and if someone is keeping you or manufacturers keeping you from that, then work around it. Um the uh. Now that also doesn't mean cut bait every 15 seconds and there are others that will do that.

Rami Al-Chacar:

You know, I am not talking about that.

Rami Al-Chacar:

Usually, when we cut bait with a manufacturer, you're talking about years of just with a few exceptions, a year, two years of showing up late, canceling orders. You know, lying to customers, rescheduling, rescheduling, more rescheduling, not fixing a building with repairs. It's not worth it.

Shed Geek:

You know and so you know especially if you are local and you've got a brand that you're building there, the local community takes it out on you. They don't typically take it out on the manufacturer and that's. And that's very hard for people, you know, to live in a community and deal with that sort of negative press cleaning up anything that's on their website or trying to clean up any flaws. You know that does make it tough.

Rami Al-Chacar:

You have to live in that community yes, you do, and we've had gold mines that, um, the wrong person got, uh was working there and just it put a bad taste in customer mouths and we had to rebuild the reputation. Uh, you know, it's just, and that's, that's for manufacturers, that's for the retailers, I mean, that's anything. So, yeah, the people talk and one bad oh, don't shop, shop there at one party, that's if there's 10 people at that party, that's 10 people that know not to shop there. You know it's just, you can't. It's almost insurmountable at that point. Not quite, but it feels like it. So, building a nest of manufacturers and a sales team that again reciprocates your efforts and honors your customer and honors you and honors you, build like it is worth cutting bait when you can to grow to where now you can go to sleep at night.

Rami Al-Chacar:

Now, you don't have to worry about you know all.

Rami Al-Chacar:

is this manufacturer going to show up after? You know that it rained all this time? You know we have. I know without a shadow of a doubt that when I sell a building, that building is going to be there when, like, I don't have to think about it and it used to be not the case. And so having a relationship with a company that that understands that it's not just about themselves and that understands that I'm a piece of this equation, for them to be sustainable, go it goes a very, very long way.

Shed Geek:

I love it. I love it, man. We got to. We got to get you back on here. Yeah, I love your thoughts. I love that you took the time to answer, you know, some of the questions or commented on some of the thoughts that were out there, cause I think that communication keeps us grounded, it keeps us connected and it's very important.

Shed Geek:

You know, sometimes you feel like you're on an island by yourself. Maybe you're selling today and you don't have anybody to bounce these ideas and thoughts off of, and you know these social media outlets become an option the podcast, you know I always encourage people to listen, not for my sake, but because you might learn something. You know, obviously we sell advertising on there to people and we hope that, you know. You know listeners will go and purchase a product or purchase a you know a service that that is on there. That's why those people commit money to be on here and allow us to do these things. But I can't say enough, you know about you know just the short time I've known you and your thoughts on different things. I really value your opinion and I look forward now to seeing your comments and even responses and things on the Shed.

Shed Geek:

Sales Professionals page and other, absolutely.

Shed Geek:

I really love that you think things through and give a nice comprehensive answer to everything. Think things through and give a nice comprehensive answer to everything.

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Shed Geek:

Before we go. Anything that you have, any questions that you have podcasting, shed related, just anything that I might be able to answer in full transparency. I always give everybody the option to do that and if there's just a question you have, I'm happy to answer it if I can. If not, yeah, I'll do my best.

Rami Al-Chacar:

So, a hurdle for me in all of my years is the marketing piece. I am not a marketer, so I really have to rely on a very rugged concept of what marketing looks like for my store, what has worked for you as far as marketing goes and what is your expectation for a successful marketing campaign yeah, well, you know, I tell people there's a lot of reasons that I, I go into or done certain things in the industry is because I really just try to be a good listener.

Shed Geek:

And then, uh, I, I learn. You know, I learn from the mistakes of others. I don't just learn from the mistakes of myself, I learn from the mistakes of others and then I try to from the mistakes of myself. I learned from the mistakes of others and then I try to, I try to listen. You know, when you teach your children something, you usually don't do this and, trust me, don't do it, cause I've been down that road right.

Shed Geek:

That's why you tell them but.

Shed Geek:

But some are stubborn, like I was, and I had to figure it out myself the hard way.

Rami Al-Chacar:

Right.

Shed Geek:

I had to go and learn the hard way that, like, even though they were trying to help me, I thought I knew better. So, what I've learned is you know, we have an agency that serves the industry. We serve, you know, approximately 50 clients in the industry, and what I've learned is to get myself. I've literally done what other people tell me is a key to success, which is to put yourself in a room full of smart people. Yeah, it's really not that complicated if we can take our ego out of it right. I just put myself in a room full of people a lot smarter than me and voila, next thing, you know, they make me look better than what I am, because I'm, I'm the, I'm the fifth wheel, uh, uh, of five people and all of a sudden I become, you know, uh, build a massive amount of knowledge in this thing myself by just surrounding myself with these people. So, I give a lot of credit to, to my team, um, uh, for sure.

Shed Geek:

But what's been really unique, and I'm sharing this with this uh on this uh sales journey tomorrow that we're talking with this company in Indiana is the retail market's changed? It certainly changed from whenever we were growing up, and it doesn't matter how you feel about that market changing. What matters is how you respond to it, and people are going to be okay with your response. If your response is like no, not doing it, not going to get into it, I do just fine without it, I can promise you people who are finding success in it are not going to argue with you because they don't really want you competing with them in it anyway. So they're okay with your position on that right. I just think that the industry is definitely getting big enough. I don't know if it's saturated by any means. I believe there's a long way to go, but I just believe that the retail market's changing and so much of that is a technological change and I've never been, surprisingly, like a big tech guru. I've never a lot of people oh you got a podcast.

Shed Geek:

You're doing marketing. You're doing all this. Of course, you're a tech person and I'm like, well, I can, I can talk the talk pretty good, but there's, there's people around me who help walk the walk better than I do and I give them I give them a lot of praise, a lot of credit for their efforts and their expertise and years of service and knowledge that they've been grinding and figuring these things out. But the agency model has, I feel like has been really good for us. What we've been pushing is our agency model. You can hire a person, you can bring them in, you can pay 80 grand a year and, and guess what? What you're probably going to find someone who's very talented if you hire a marketing personality. So, I'm not trying to take any marketing jobs away. Sometimes you need a liaison, just to be clear, uh, between the two. I'm just saying you know an agency brings a different perspective to it. You know like we can simultaneously work on building your you know your digital assets out, your website and, and, and, while simultaneously talking to you about you know, an ad budget and what kind of ad copy you want out there, and, and that's hard for one person to do right. When we have 10 people working towards your, your product and your company, it's just a lot different. So I have found that to be the most successful. The thing that I found challenging has been your average and I hope I don't sound like I'm insulting when I say this, but like your average dealer, your average dealer who is trying to grow their own brand and then they sell the brand of another manufacturer. You know that's very difficult, again, based on even a million dollars in sales, because to operate a really good marketing program, it's there's a cost to it, but the cost is an investment, and the one thing we tell people is like, if you invest in marketing, it should be making you money, not costing you money. It's not a line item budget, right? If you were going to go into shed hauling, what's the first thing you need to buy? Probably a trailer, maybe a truck. You know if you're going to sell sheds, you probably need to buy some, two by fours, you know so. So, you're doing that. Why? Because it costs you money and it's always going to cost you money. No, you're doing it because it makes you money. Yeah, and that's the way marketing should be thought of. And if you're not, if you're not being serviced in a way that marketing is making you money, then I think you and your marketing company need to have a conversation.

Shed Geek:

I know that if we're not making people money, we will probably be quicker to pull away than they will because we'll realize, hey, we can't help you. There's just nothing we can do. And why can't we help you? It might be because we're limited by your budget. It might be that we are limited by your vision. It might be that we are limited by your vision. It might be that you know, we just can't serve you as well as others can, based off your unique business perspective.

Shed Geek:

But that's where customer acquisition comes in. Right, you talked about the difference in a shed company and a metal company. The customer acquisition time is longer for a metal uh customer than it is a shed customer. Well, we've, we've approached that in marketing uh, we have become almost consultants, if you will. We, we actually sit down with people and say, in your broken language, tell me what marketing is to you, and then we'll, we'll have some thoughts on that. Where we can, you know, converse back and forth to say, well, in this situation, you know, so we're educators. You know we, we spend the time to educate so that you feel comfortable knowing what you're, what you're buying, and I think that's super important Because, as you said, not everybody's a marketer.

Rami Al-Chacar:

I would imagine if you, I am definitely not.

Shed Geek:

I tell shed builders all the time you know, if you want to see, if you want to see me fail, let's get out there and compare your skills as a manufacturer versus mine. I can probably build you a shed or something that looks similar because I can probably see 90% of it looking the same or similar to a shed that you have built but you're going to come in and pick it completely apart and say, oh, my goodness, this is a terrible build. This guy obviously doesn't know what he's doing. And that's what you know. An agency will find, you know, they will say, hey, you're doing a good job. It's not that you're doing terrible, but there's some, there's some obvious things here, like, right, you forgot this, you know. It's like, oh, I didn't even know that. And it's like, well, how could you know that? Right, so you know, that's really what you're attempting to do. You're attempting to come alongside and help people, but uh, yeah, I don't know if I answered your question or not, but me and you long-winded, so we're talking about reciprocation.

Rami Al-Chacar:

It's only fair. I you know I was a little long-winded myself but you did.

Shed Geek:

You did great. You did great. Anything else that you want to share with the industry? Any shout outs or just anything in general for those who are listening today, Any final thoughts.

Rami Al-Chacar:

Well, I mean, I'll say hello to all the hometown shed peaks who will be listening to this, and then, obviously, my wife is going to listen to it as well. So, hello, Denise, uh. And then, obviously, my wife is going to listen to it as well. So, hello, Denise, um. And then, um, yeah, the only thing I was going to, I was thinking about that. I meant to mention from before um, and we piece that however you need to, but the um you were asking earlier about advice for the new guys. Um, and I've been circling this in my head as you were kind of explaining some of that Um, always take a step back and uh, uh, take a step back and look at the whole thing, at the whole picture.

Rami Al-Chacar:

I have found that, like, my price sheets every couple of months will be just a little bit different from a time before. I took a step back and say, oh, I could have done this just a little bit differently. But yeah, that would. That would be just that, like taking a step back and just reassessing my situation and looking at it, making sure I'm looking at it from a customer's perspective, making sure I'm looking at it from a customer's perspective making. Look at that, making sure I'm looking at it from a? Uh, well, honestly, from a customer's perspective instead of a retailer perspective or, even worse, from a manufacturer's perspective.

Rami Al-Chacar:

Uh, and where I really kind of dawned it was a daunting moment for me is we had a brochure that a manufacturer made and it was just a bunch of pictures in their brochure of their plant. Well, no one cares about that. They want to know what their shed's going to look like, and so that was kind of the journey for me, kind of getting to this point. Uh, but really most recently in the last couple, uh, I would say in the last two years, really taking a step back and it's like how am I presenting my information to these guys, to these customers, in such a way that they are captivated by what I have to say? And I'm telling you, it makes a world of difference. So anyways, I know that I was kind of out of order there, but I just know I have been meaning to interject that somewhere.

Shed Geek:

So absolutely great advice, and I mean it whenever I say we should to interject that somewhere. So absolutely great advice, and I mean it whenever I say we should have you back on. I certainly appreciate you, you know, being willing to come on and share some thoughts.

Shed Geek:

I encourage everybody to go on. And if you're involved in the shed industry, go check out the Shed Sales Professionals page. It's a private page. Hey, while you're at it, go over, check out Shed Geek. Give us a like you know, a comment. Don't be afraid. You know we're invested in the industry.

Shed Geek:

So, again, if you're a professional, I believe that you should search down every magazine, publication, podcast, book, post-it note, whatever you want to, whatever you want to look for to learn more about your industry and to be better and to learn how to serve customers better, be better at what you do. Hey, I know every podcast isn't for everybody. I always acknowledge that, Even my favorite podcasters, I don't listen to every episode, but if you get some worth and some value, give us a shout, give us a holler, be willing to sit down with us. Go check out our newsletter. If you're not signed up for the newsletter, just go to info at shedgeek. com. Tell me who you are, Give me your name, Give me your company, Give me your email and we will be sure to add you to it.

Shed Geek:

We have an email newsletter that goes out every Monday, Wednesday and Friday that discusses who's going to be on the show. It's full of advertisers and links that you can click on to go, type in, search out their stuff, even fill out a lead form If you want to know more about their products or service. Give them a shout, because we appreciate those who are supporters of the podcast over here. We want to support them. That's just the way we operate. I guess we're true capitalists maybe Rami in that. In that mindset, we help those who help us. We even help those who don't help us sometimes.

Rami Al-Chacar:

Exactly.

Shed Geek:

You know, Rami, I certainly appreciate it. It's been a blast and we'll have to get you back on. I think that'll be great.

Rami Al-Chacar:

Yeah, please do. Happy to help. I'm happy to just spend some time with you guys and kind of get to know you, just like the other way around. So I appreciate it Excellent, thank you.

Shed Geek:

Yeah.