Shed Geek Podcast
The Shed Geek Podcast offers an in depth analysis of the ever growing and robust Shed Industry. Listeners will experience a variety of guests who identify or specialize in particular niche areas of the Shed Industry. You will be engaged as you hear amateur and professional personalities discuss topics such as: Shed hauling, sales, marketing, Rent to Own, shed history, shed faith, and much more. Host Shannon Latham is a self proclaimed "Shed Geek" who attempts to take you through discussions that are as exciting as the industry itself. Listeners of this podcast include those who play a role directly or indirectly with the Shed Industry itself.
Shed Geek Podcast
RTO Contracts: Protecting Your Shed Business from Legal Pitfalls
Ever wonder what happens when a rent-to-own customer stops paying? Or what legal pitfalls could be lurking in your contracts? The shed industry faces unique legal challenges that can make or break your business.
Attorney Nick Garrard joins us to share his 12 years of legal expertise in the rent-to-own shed industry. What began as a single case in 2012 has grown into a specialized practice serving shed businesses across the country. Nick breaks down the most common legal issues he encounters—from the dangers of "bootleg contracts" to the murky concept of "breach of peace" during repossessions.
We dive deep into the evolving role of the National Shed Rental Association (NSRA), which is transforming from simply hosting an annual conference to becoming a year-round membership organization with educational resources, legal guidance, and industry standards. This change represents the shed industry's maturation and growing need for professional development and accountability.
Perhaps most valuable is Nick's practical advice on state-specific contract requirements. Using a contract designed for one state in another jurisdiction could invalidate your entire agreement—potentially forcing you to surrender ownership of sheds to customers who've barely paid. Similarly, Nick explains why referring to rent-to-own transactions as "financing" creates serious legal complications during bankruptcy proceedings.
Whether you're a manufacturer, dealer, or rent-to-own provider, this episode delivers crucial insights to protect your business from costly legal mistakes. Join us in Knoxville this September for the NSRA conference to learn more, or connect directly with Nick at WilkinsPatterson.com for specialized guidance.
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This episodes Sponsors:
Studio Sponsor: Shed Pro
Hello and welcome back to the Shed Geek Podcast. Here's a message from our 2025 studio sponsor. Let's be real Running a shed business today isn't just about building great sheds. The industry is changing fast. We're all feeling the squeeze, competing for fewer buyers while expectations keep climbing, and yet I hear from many of you that you are still juggling spreadsheets, clunky software or disconnected systems. You're spending more time managing chaos than actually growing your business. That's why I want to talk to you about our studio sponsor, Shed Pro. If you're not already using them, I really think you should check them out.
Intro:Shed Pro combines your 3D configurator, point of sale, RTO contracts, inventory, deliveries and dealer tools all in one platform. They even integrate cleanly into our Shed Geek marketing solutions, From website lead to final delivery. You can quote, contract, collect payment and schedule delivery in one clean workflow. Contract collect, payment and schedule delivery in one clean workflow. No more double entries, no more back and forth chaos. Quoting is faster, orders are cleaner and, instead of chasing down paperwork, you're actually running your business. And if you mention Shed Geek, you'll get 25% off all setup fees. Check it out at shedpro. co/ shedgeek.
Intro:Thank you, Shed Pro, for being our studio sponsor and, honestly, for building something that helps the industry.
Shed Geek:Okay, welcome back to another episode of the Shed Geek podcast and my. Is this overdue? I feel like I've reached out to you three times and I've never done a good job of follow up, so maybe that says a lot about my need for improved communication, Nick. So, thank you for meeting with us here today. It's been I think it was year one, when Kyle was still with me the last time we interviewed you. So, it's, it's been a while.
Shed Geek:Yeah, we're in year five now. We need to make this an annual thing.
Nick Garrard:I'm happy. I'm happy to come anytime. This is a great resource for the industry, and we certainly appreciate what you do and what this podcast means for the industry. So, yeah, anytime you need us, we'll be here for you.
Shed Geek:Well, it's, it's been, it's, honestly, it's been a lot of fun and it's really a lot of. It's a fun industry to be in. So, I appreciate those kind words, kind words, and I'll tell you the same thing I tell everyone else. I'll put a check in the mailbox for you on that note. So, but the reality is, I'm here with, as I am in most situations, maybe all situations I'm here with someone smarter than me that I get to learn from, and that's why we get to do this and have fun doing these interviews. But for those who don't know you, let's start there. Who are you? What do you do? How did you wind up in the shed industry or have any relation to the shed industry?
Nick Garrard:for those who don't know you, yeah, that's a uh, it's a good story. I, my name is Nick Garrard. I'm an attorney in Jackson, Mississippi. I do, uh, work kind of all over now for a lot of different uh people in the rent-to-own industry, specifically with the sheds. But yeah, I'm based in Jackson, and I started in 2013, I guess maybe 2012, with kind of a referral from a friend, of a friend type deal and just to handle a little issue with a rent-owned shed and I thought, well, this is kind of interesting, sure, I'll help you out. And that one file turned into two, turned into four, and then eight and 16. So it just grew and grew and over the past 12 years or so it has become, if not the, certainly probably the biggest part of my legal practice. I do some other work too with our firm.
Shed Geek:We do some insurance defense, workers' comp defense, but this takes up, I'd say, at least 50 or more of my work and, um, it's been great I started to came to my first uh later for a larger shed manufacturer back probably around the same time and kind of learned about you know how there's a sales side, a manufacturing side, this purchasing side, this, this, this, uh logistics side. But then it was like, well, what about that financing side?
Shed Geek:You know, where, where there's payment options, you know, and, and then, so then it's been like this long journey inside of that and I was sort of approached to help grow, uh, uh, um, a network, you know, an RTO network in the Midwest, you know, and, and after that it was just, you know, uh, caution to the wind, I guess you'd say, jump right in and started, and the one thing I noticed going from place to place is that people would ask a lot of the same questions and, and you know, wanted to pull on the experiences of others and, um it just one guy asked me one time.
Shed Geek:He said where can I find more resources? And you know, and I get in the and I get in the car and I'm listening to podcasts and audiobooks and music, and you know podcasts probably more than anything, and, and I'm like man, no one's done a podcast over the shed industry. It just seems like, you know, uh, especially as competitive as rent owns become since, you know, the last few years, especially five, six years, it seemed like a relationship building was very necessary, because there's a lot of relationship building and long-term relationship building in this industry, and it was like if you just show up and you sign somebody up. That might not always be the best thing.
Nick Garrard:Exactly, I'm kind of like you. I was trying to figure out sort of how it all fit together in the beginning too, and who the different players are and how it all fits together. You know, it was just a learning curve in the beginning and yeah, it was hard. It was difficult, I'd say, in the beginning because of that Not knowing sort of the relationships behind the scenes and what was going on and yeah. So, the podcast became a great resource for that.
Nick Garrard:Yeah, and then just showing up going to the meetings, going to an APRO event, and it was like a big puzzle, you know. You started putting the pieces together and figuring out. This seems like a this is a much bigger industry. And then then what it what I initially realized and it just carried on.
Shed Geek:It's pretty interesting it is. It really is, and I wrote down on here a pro because I wanted to touch on that, but I thought you know, since you brought it up, let's just dive right into that.
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Shed Geek:Give a little synopsis of APRO and then NSRA, how the two differ but how they serve sort of in the same capacity of rental. We're just, you know, sort of a one product side of that and you know, like, can you? Can you elaborate on that a little?
Nick Garrard:yeah, ARPO, the Association of Progressive Rental Organizations, is sort of our. You know, that's the big umbrella organization for the rent-to-own industry. It's a large national organization and it's been around for a long time, for a long time, and so it serves a wider variety of rent-to-own organizations. You know, I think of it primarily with the large rent-to-own businesses, but you know, it's just a wide variety of people and you know from furniture, tv and appliances to equipment, and you know just pretty much the gamut of rent-to-own properties. Probably not any real property. I don't think. I don't think there's any. There are some real property like a rent-to-own house people out there, but that's really a totally different transaction. It really is not what we're focused on. But anyway, yeah, APRO is a larger organization. But anyway, yeah, APRO is a larger organization.
Nick Garrard:Ed Wynn has been a general counsel for that. He's been my, I'd say, mentor and really helped me to understand a lot of what's going on and I went to one of their meetings. I'm planning to go this summer to Omaha for their next meeting, which will be great. I'm looking forward to that. And then we fall. The NSRA now National Shed Rental Association is underneath the, I would say, APRO umbrella. So, we're a smaller rent-to-own trade association that really focuses on shed manufacturers, dealers and rent-to-own companies in the shed space. So, backyard storage buildings and there's kennels and chicken coops and whatever else you want to build and store things in that we'll call a shed. Whatever else you want to build and store things in that we'll call a shed. Really, we're here to serve that industry and that's the focus of this particular group and it's where I've done the vast majority of my work since getting involved. That's sort of the difference, I think.
Shed Geek:And I feel like you know you think about the origin of that. I think I heard one person ask you know, ask me the question in the talks about NSRA is you know, would we consider ourself an event or an organization? How would you, how would you describe that? You know, like, cause there's, there's a lot of benefit that comes out of the NSRA, and like they have an annual meeting. They have that before the Shed Expo. Uh, you know, during Shed Week, hosted by, you know, the guys over at uh, at uh Shed Business Journal, you know so. So, like, there's an event there that you can attend. You pay to attend and there's breakout sessions or speakers. You know, I've had some of the most awesome speakers in the last couple of years. You know, but what is the? What is the purpose of, how it of? Like, what it serves?
Nick Garrard:Well, and what's a? It's a good question. It's a good time to talk about it because you're right, In the past NBSRA or NSRA, has been, primarily, has been, a conference. I mean, that's been really what the organization association did. Was we put on a conference every year? And in the past, after COVID I guess we started, I think there was one year, maybe one year we had to miss, I can't remember. Then, after that, maybe since 21, we've been sort of piggybacking with the Shed Expo, but before that it was just a standalone conference we did and that was really what we did. It was that one conference.
Nick Garrard:But starting last year, the board met. I mean, it's a great board of industry leaders, they are the best people to work with, they make my job as their attorney very easy and they decided they really wanted to transform the association into something more than just an annual meeting. They wanted to have member benefits, member meetings, more options for members, so have a full membership section and really think of ways that the association could impact the industry in the next three, five, seven years, what our goals are and how to meet those goals. So, we've had several in-person meetings. We have Zoom meetings regularly. In fact, I just got off one this morning with some guys and Tanner and some other guys with the association that are helping put together our new website, our new membership portal, what that's going to look like, what we're going to be able to offer for members, and it's really good, really exciting. The ideas that have kind of come up from this have been incredible. I think you're going to see an association that really values its members and really looks to provide value to the members. We've got several videos on tap that will be available. We've got other resources, legal resources. We're hoping to have some vendor contacts and vendor value to add, and the list goes on.
Nick Garrard:It's going to transform our association from just a meeting in the fall to a year-round organization that provides value to the members, and that's where we're headed. So, yeah, where we've been is, you know, is different. It was, you know, it was a once-a-year meeting and we're really trying to transform that and it's going to happen. It's going to be great. We want to have membership offerings available and sign you up, get you an NSRA member button or pin or logo for your website. We want you to promote that you are a member of the association, so that you know to hold each other accountable and make sure that the industry is moving in a positive direction for everybody. So that's where we've been. The future is very bright. It's going to be awesome, with all the guys that are involved in it. You're going to be really impressed.
Shed Geek:Well, we're certainly looking forward to it. We've typically attended every year and, like I said, enjoyed it. And for those who are looking to be in RTO and some of that discussion gets wide right Like it could be a manufacturer, you know, who wants to maintain vertical integration governing authority, just be the you know a pro as the big umbrella. There's kind of like this intentionality of being, you know like, just accountable to each other as an industry. First, is that fair to say.
Nick Garrard:I think that's true. Yeah, I mean, one thing to think of, too is knock on wood, we've avoided a lot of government oversight and overreach and, if we can hold each other accountable, be a solid organization, do the right things. There's a place for everybody, you know, that wants to be in there's room. There's room to grow. The industry's continuing to grow and I think that having an association that's strong and that has powerful members within the industry keep each other, help each other, look out for pitfalls, look out for things that are popping up across the country we can hopefully avoid some other watchdog group coming in behind us and telling us we're not doing things right, and so being proactive in that regard, I think, is going to be important as we move forward, certainly in the next 10 years, as we continue to grow, yeah, so I think that's a good way to put it. What you said is accountability and watching out for each other and helping each other,
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Shed Geek:So, the difficult questions come now. I suspect that you, being a lawyer, you're used to that, and look Nick say in private, how would you address this question? The membership is made up of those who also serve the industry. What kind of accountability exists for us as competitors to come together with, like this spirit of cooperation? What can we do, you know, to help make sure that that is not just in the background, like you know, true and tested and meets all of the accountability standards, but even in the foreground. You know the optics of the industry or the organization and what it's doing. What are your thoughts there?
Nick Garrard:One thing that we really promote and push is the idea of fair and open competition. We believe in that. We believe in organizations and their ability to run their businesses and work how they see fit. We're certainly not trying to control that or make people do things a certain way or anything like that, anything like that, but we have an idea for an organization that has goals and has a code of conduct, I would say, and best practices, some of the ways that you can, you know as a member organization. These are the ideas that we believe in and promote, not in any way to limit competition, which is vital and critical that that stays fair and open and honest, but just developing a sense of best practices for the industry as a whole, I think, is really the way to approach that.
Shed Geek:No, I think that's evident. It seems to be if you go to the events, like we've attended the events. I certainly encourage people to attend the events because you know it's not just what you can learn individually or benefit from your own company, but it's really about being as strong as your weakest link Right and, like the industry as a whole, sort of benefiting from the spirit of cooperation you know, of working together for what's best for the customer, what's best for you know the. You know if someone wants to go, if someone wants to attend, or even if someone wants to be involved, whether that's a board member, a planning committee. You know all these different things. What are, you know? How do they, how do they throw their hat in that ring? How do they make it to the, to the event? What does that look like? And then, like what if they want to be more involved or choose to be more involved? What does that look like? And then, mike, what if they want to be more involved or choose to be more involved? What does that look?
Nick Garrard:I was. Actually, I was pulling this up, but so currently we still have the website is nbsra. com. That's going to be changing in the near future. The new website's called the nsra. com, t-h-e-n-s-r-a. com, and there's a conference button at the top where you can click and register now to attend the conference. So that's up and live, which is great, and you know what we'll do is, if you want to be more involved, we take nominations for the advisory board and the board. I guess we just the board is what I should say we take nominations, and we'll do that at the conference. We'll have that all set up and you know there will be other opportunities between now and the conference, when we launch the membership section, which will launch between. I'm not going to give you a hard day yet, but it's coming.
Nick Garrard:Don't hold me to it, but I think it'll be in July. Okay, well, I'm sure we'll see. You can edit that out.
Shed Geek:if it doesn't happen, We'll just have you say we'll have your mouth move differently and say August, and I'll put my voice in there.
Nick Garrard:That's right, you can put a puppet over me or something, but yeah, between now and the conference, I'd say there will be email blasts, social media blasts we're really amping up that push through the summer and that will give you a variety of ways to get involved. It will give you all the info about the conference. They have put together a dynamic lineup. I'm not sure that we have the ability to announce all of that yet, but it is coming and it is going to be fantastic. We've had great speakers the past several years and this year is going to be no different. We're going even higher and higher and higher, over and above, I think. So, you want to go ahead and purchase your conference tickets now so we don't sell out which we intend to sell out. That's the plan. So, purchase them early, be ready. We'll be in Knoxville in September and it's going to be a great show.
Shed Geek:And this is beneficial to all in the industry, wouldn't you say, Nick? So, like those who are in rent-to-own, provide rent-to-own either as a standalone company or a manufacturer, but even beneficial to salespeople who sell products through rent-to-own. It's beneficial to all Drivers, haulers, yeah.
Nick Garrard:Yeah, we've had an emphasis on that in the past and manufacturers yeah, I mean really anybody that touches the industry accountants, lawyers I know we don't want to talk about lawyers too much,
Shed Geek:we'll throw in do we throw in an applause or do we throw in a boo?
Shed Geek:I'm not sure, Nick, for you we're going to throw in an applause, for the rest of them We'll throw in a boo. We hear such good things about you as we talk to other people in the industry. I just told the guy I was getting ready to hop on the podcast with you and he's like, oh, I like that guy on the podcast with you. And he's like, oh, I like that guy. He's helped me out a lot.
Nick Garrard:Oh, good, good, good, good. Well, I appreciate that I don't like to. You know I'd rather you not have to call me. You know I'd rather you not do something. Or I hope all of your customers pay on time and never file bankruptcy and you know your contracts are magically updated and never file bankruptcy, and you know your contracts are magically updated.
Shed Geek:But you know, in the event that something happens, we like to be there to help. I had a question the other day. I thought would make a lot of sense to ask you that Bootleg is that the right word? Bootleg contracts?
Shed Geek:You know like I'm going to establish that term if it's not but you know contracts that are, you know, created by your office for a manufacturer or an RTO company who is doing business in that state. Uh, how transferable are those? What is your advice to you know those contracts? Are they very similar, you know? Or is there a reason to have you on retainer and not just bootleg that contract, in the sense that if someone else gets it and then something changes, they, they're legal, but what if they're not?
Nick Garrard:yeah, exactly that. That's become a uh, a bigger issue really in the past couple years. Even, um, there are a handful of states. You know who's a rent-to-own statute. There's a. There's only, I think, three states that don't have a rent-to-own statute. There's only, I think, three states that don't have a rent-to-own statute. Could be four, don't quote me, but you know the vast majority of states do, and you know there's a handful of states where you know you might could.
Nick Garrard:If you had a general enough contract and general enough language. I don't know, it might work, and if you're in, you know it works in your state. It might work in a few others, but that is definitely, I would say, the exception, not the rule, and you're running into a big risk. So, it's a big risk because a lot of the states have statutory enforcement provisions. So, if something's wrong with your contract, if you're collecting more money than is allowed by the statutes in that state, or you're collecting a certain fee that's not allowed by the statutes, you know some of the states have provisions that say contracts void customer owns building period. You know. So, if they raise it and were to take you to court, you know you've got to think about it.
Nick Garrard:Not only that customer, but now you've got 100 other contracts out there. So, all of a sudden, some plaintiff's lawyer starts sniffing around and goes I can get every one of my clients a free shed because this shed company didn't have the right language in their contract. All of a sudden, you've lost 100 sheds. There's some states that have mandatory enforcement provisions for like where the customer is entitled to actual damages, attorney's fees and then a statutory penalty on top of that, say, up to $1,000. You know and you start. Again, you have a hundred contracts, you've got a thousand- dollar penalty on each. It's going to be a lot of zeros on that deck. You got to run and that's never fun, never good.
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Nick Garrard:So, I'll have to say it doesn't you know?
Nick Garrard:what is it? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Nick Garrard:I mean yeah that's really what we're talking about here. It is really important need to make sure that you have them set up in each state. Some states require you to do some registrations with the Secretary of State or Taxation Office in some cases, where you have to register and specify that you're in the rent-to-own industry and you've got to turn over some documents to show them what you're doing. Some states are more difficult, I'd say, than others. Some have more specific provisions and even like how the contract has to be laid out. You know what language has to be included, what you can charge for and what you can't.
Nick Garrard:Caps on rent to own cost over the cash price, caps on cash price I mean it's a lot of stuff from state to state, so each state is different. No two states that I can think of off the top of my head are exactly alike. Some just have very specific requirements and some are very general and you can probably probably find but it is, uh, it is so important to get that done. It's not gonna, you know, have a lawyer look over that or get somebody to do it for you. I mean, it is, it's really not gonna, it's gonna. I'll say it'll be a lot less costly to do it that way than to get popped on the back end. So that is that is critical and I'm glad you brought it up.
Shed Geek:Well, it just, you know, you just hear different conversations that you have with folks that well, I mean, we're constantly growing and learning and trying to do better and you know, sometimes a path of the opinion of that, the person that works in that and, like you know, that's a service that costs business and it's well deserved. So, like you know, we're, yeah, we're appreciative of that, like anyone else. But, um, so, what are some? What are some things you're seeing now outside of, you know, government oversight, government provision, that always has this looming, you know, booth that's going to drop on us.
Shed Geek:You know, outside of that, what are things that you see that you can share here today. Maybe you can even tease them so that they come to the NSRA event, but some knowledge that you can share with people. What are some things that you see that are the most damaging that are being done right now? Things that just need to be reversed, things that can be corrected. If you're addressing the industry, and especially those who work in RTO, what's something you could share today that you would really want to get across?
Nick Garrard:Yeah, that's a good question and we hit on one of the contracts for sure. One thing that always comes up too is this idea of you know, when you go to pick up your building, what can I do to get my building? And there's this thing called the breach of the peace. And you know what is that? And it's a good question because nobody seems to be able to define it. It's just a term of art almost in the legal world. And what's funny is I've said this before, but there's in most of the state statutes. They talk about being able to. You know, if your customer defaults, stops paying, doesn't renew the lease, you can go get your building. Now, sometimes you've got to send them a letter, you've got to give them some sort of a notice sometimes. Sometimes some states it doesn't matter, you can just go get it.
Nick Garrard:But I would say universally, they say you can't breach the peace in getting your shed. And somebody asked me one time well, could we just put in our contract that we are allowed to breach the peace? And I said no, we can't do that either, because the statutes actually specify that you can't do that. Your contract cannot say we're entitled to breach the peace and get our shed back. So that's not allowed. And we did at a conference maybe two years ago, we did a little breakout session about this, but it's just a good yearly reminder. Generally, don't cut locks, don't take down fences, don't move stuff out of the way. If you can get to your shed, you know, and it's open and good, you're probably fine. But much beyond that. Or if the customer comes out and says you can't get this shed today, you know you're bumping up against what is a breach of the peace. It's a very low bar, I would say. And so again, you know I hate to be the lawyer, but if you were to call me and ask me, hey, can we go get this shed, I would probably say no, you know, if you're asking my opinion, but you know.
Nick Garrard:So that's definitely one thing to always keep in mind. You know, should I just go get rid of possession, file a little suit for possession? Then you're safe, you know. Then you're safe to get your stuff. So that pops up, excuse me, bankruptcies are up. I've seen a lot more bankruptcies lately.
Nick Garrard:And you know, with that the other thing I would always tell people. You know the other thing I would always tell people, you know. One file your proof of claim on time. I've got forms for you, I've got a video I did to show you what to do. You can do a lot of that stuff on your own. And then two is as soon as the customer files bankruptcy, there is an automatic stay in place so you cannot go get your building. You can't really even call them and tell them they got to pay, you've got to. It really just puts a pause on the whole transaction. In a perfect world they would continue to pay you because a lease has to be either paid or rejected and surrendered. But it's not always a perfect world and so you know you can't go get it.
ADVERTISEMENT:Oh no, sam, what's?
ADVERTISEMENT:going on, are you okay? Yes, I'm fine, lisa, oh no, Sam, what's going on? Are you okay?
ADVERTISEMENT:Yes, I'm fine, Lisa. I was just trying to get a screwdriver and all this other stuff fell down. I'm ready to go buy a shed so we can have some space in this garage again.
ADVERTISEMENT:I agree, I keep looking at the shed Mr Jenkins bought. Let's ask him where.
ADVERTISEMENT:I got his Howdy neighbor. We're wondering how do you like your shed?
ADVERTISEMENT:I love it. It's exactly what I needed, and I couldn't have asked for a better service. And where did you get it? Hmm, I can't remember, but let me check Something. This nice will probably have the builder's name on it somewhere. Hmm, no, I'm sorry, I can't find a name anywhere. Well, we finally got a shed.
ADVERTISEMENT:Yes, I just hope we're happy. The thing is a lot more shoddy than I expected, and I'm sure I told them I wanted a window, but they didn't have it in the paperwork so I couldn't argue. Boy is this a lousy shed. We haven't even had it two years, have we?
ADVERTISEMENT:Barely. It was just a bad deal all the way around. Mr Jenkins told me the other day that he likes his shed so much he wants to get a second one, but he still can't remember where he got it.
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Nick Garrard:And what happens sometimes is a customer will forget oh I forgot I had that shed back there when I filed my bankruptcy and I forgot to tell my lawyer about it. And so, the shed company doesn't know about it, and they go and get it. Well, you know, I mean technically, even though they didn't have notice, there's still a stay issue. So, getting on PACER, which is the federal court database, searching your customer, making sure there's not a bankruptcy case out there, just double checking, so stuff like that Stay on top of your customers. Don't let the accounts get 60, 90 days past due. That's when we see a lot of issues Sheds go missing or they're stolen or sold. I would say those are my biggest three, four areas that are just, you know, a constant, a constant in this, in my side of the business.
Shed Geek:Because I wrote down trends here, because we initially discussed trends lost buildings, stolen buildings, theft rings yeah, those are real conversations in the shed world and probably especially in the RTO world. What comes to mind whenever you hear those terms?
Nick Garrard:Just education with your dealers and knowing who you're dealing with. You know, making sure you do your due diligence on who your partners are and who you are choosing to partner with, doing some background research. You know a deal is too good to be true. It probably is. Yeah, I mean, I hear of those things out there. I hear of those things out there. I don't have a lot of direct knowledge or work in a lot of that stuff, but I know it's out there, I know it's a real concern and it seems like, from what I know and the ones I've worked with or helped or whatever it comes down to, you know, we didn't know enough about that guy or this group or whatever and there was some shady dealings going on with them and you know it just is a learning opportunity.
Shed Geek:So, you said earlier, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I find that to be educational side team seems to be. You know it's always the, the part that we missed right, an educational piece to, to trying to prevent some of these things. I think that's, you know, to me that's. I see the NSRA as much of that is trying to help create that educational segment. You know it seems to be. You know what the part of the process is, there for your attendance and it sounds like maybe for your membership, which is going to be a new thing, you know, to be able to actually be a member. You know, I think, about other trade associations, like you know the rent-to actually be a member. You know, I think about other trade associations, like you know the rent-to-own, the way they've done it, but, like you know, a builder association, a building association, you know, a selling association, a hauling association, you know all of these different things that are, you know, meant to work in collaboration with other organizations or other associations within the industry, to help, um, you know, just to help us serve better, help us be better as an organization.
Shed Geek:We're an industry that seems to be moving from our baby years, to our toddler years, to pretty soon being a full grown up, you know, industry if we're not careful. It's kind of neat to watch because it's so much different now than it was when I was first exposed to it. With that comes increased competition and all these different things. We really see an increase in competition in rent-to-own. This may not be in the world that you play in, I'm not sure but I'm curious that from a legal perspective, on the record here on the record, we're like Greta, we're bringing you on the record. Okay, what are your thoughts, or do you have any, as to where rent-to-own is going with all the different bells and whistles nowadays? You know, 90 days, same as cash. Six months, same as cash. 12 months, same as cash. 72-month contracts, dealer premiums Do you have any thoughts on any of these things or do they matter in that legal world for you? Thoughts on any of these things?
Nick Garrard:or do they matter in that legal world? For you Only this, and that is, if it's an option in that state that you're working in, then let's try it out and see how it does. Again, it comes back to the competition free and open competition. One company is going to try something a little different. Let's see if it works. And then another company tries something else, let's see if it works.
Nick Garrard:So, I'm for innovation and the idea that just because we've done it one way doesn't mean we have to continue doing it that way. You know, I'm a Cubs fan and they lost for 108 years and finally they went. Let's do something different and they won the World Series. So, I like well, I shouldn't say I like change, because really, I'm not, I'm a creature of habit, but I like innovation in this industry because we can't stay where we are and just stay stagnant.
Nick Garrard:I think it's important to grow and change and update, but to do so in a way that really continues to bring focus to the customer. What we're trying to do, I think, is offer customers the opportunity to have a product that maybe they wouldn't otherwise be able to afford or couldn't purchase on their own. So, you're providing a service to the customers. And if our association keeps that in mind, with a focus on doing the right thing, doing things open and honest and above board, then the innovation that comes from it, I think, will just blossom. I mean, we're just going to continue to grow and expand. So, you know, let's try it If somebody has an idea and wants to run with it and pursue it you know I'm open for it and I encourage it.
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Shed Geek:I want to tease you about being a Cubs fan, because I grew up at Cardinal Country just to be clear and I'm smart enough not to tease you about that right now.
Shed Geek:So I, that's right. Ryan Sandberg was still one of my favorite players of all time growing up, mark Grace.
Shed Geek:But I've just been.
Shed Geek:Yeah, I've just been an Ozzie and Albert, I've just I've just been an Aussie and Albert Pujols and Yadier Molina guy for so long that. But yeah, Ryan Sandberg still holds the place as my favorite second baseman and I can't really speak on much I have for the last 108 years. The Cubs were not doing good, but my partner, I sure can't say too much right now because you guys are leading in our division. But that's awesome. Yeah, it's awesome.
Shed Geek:I love talking baseball because it's a passion of mine growing up just as much as Sheds has become in my later years here. Me too. So many just different thoughts later years here, but so many just different thoughts. You know, gosh, we really should do this, you know, each year, because I think about all the change to rent to own. You know, I hear people say finance a lot. What does that? Does that just stick in your crawl any whenever you hear finance and like how that is related to rent to own? Like, have we not done?
Nick Garrard:What are your thoughts on that? Well, you're really not financing the transaction. In fact, I'm working on something today where a bankruptcy case in Texas and you know the customer's lawyer is trying to make some argument about it being a finance transaction. And it's not. It's a true rental transaction. The customer rents the property. They just become the owner after 36, 48, whatever months. But what's critical in that is that they always maintain the option to terminate the agreement.
Nick Garrard:There's your vital piece of information in your contract termination agreement. They're not obligated to continue to rent the shed or the property, and that's true, really that, going back to what we first started, you know the transaction between a shed rent-to-own, or a TV appliance or car rims or whatever else they're doing. It's the same transaction and it's the same, you know. So, it's not financed, and you need to avoid using that because it puts you in a different category of treatment for bankruptcy. It puts you in a different taxation type. I'm not a tax lawyer, I'm just told. Puts you in a different taxation type. I'm not a tax lawyer, I'm just told. But you know, and so let's avoid that, avoid that language. You're not financing it, you're renting it to the customer, and they have the option to own it or purchase it or just turn it in after three months and be done with it. So that's yeah, that's important for sure.
Shed Geek:Yeah, I think that educational piece comes back into that conversation quickly and like whose responsibility is it to educate? Is it the rent-to-own company's responsibility to educate the their customer and then their customers, customers? So, if it's a manufacturer and their dealer network, is it the manufacturer's responsibility? Uh, because our dealer networks are so fragmented with, you know, a mixture of um consignment versus wholesale and, and you know, and maybe two or three other types of models, where does the burden of responsibility fall on so that the customer is getting the information? Of course they're signing the contract, but what responsibility do we have to ensure that they understand that contract? And I can only imagine these are conversations you have when you actually end up in a courtroom defending a contract. What advice can you give to a dealer today, or to someone who doesn't play in the world that you do of high-level legal conversation in regards to RTO contracts, buildings that are, you know, put on RTOs.
Nick Garrard:Well, I think, first of all, to address the point of whose responsibility is it? I think it's, I think it's all of ours. I think it's really a vital part that the association is going to play moving forward, that we as an industry have an idea of how the transaction should work in terms of what the transaction is. So, we have our members who are members of the association, who, through coming to the conference and accessing the member portal, come to have a greater understanding about some of the nuances of the transaction, and that they need to be passing that along to their dealers.
Nick Garrard:We want dealers to come to the conference, we want dealers to be members, we want vendors to come and vendors to be members. All of this to funnel down, to ultimately pass along to the customer, who fully understands the transaction and understands that we are providing a service that allows them to get property, or, you know, a set of tires or whatever it is that maybe they couldn't otherwise get. So, I think the idea is it funnels down from the top. I think the idea is it funnels down from the top. And we, being up here, you know, I think, the industry leaders, we're all at the top, so we all have to make sure that that information is getting down to everybody else out in the field. No-transcript, what you're really even providing. Um, yeah, we'll finance it, or yeah, you know, but, but it's a, you have to see it as a service. I think that's why I keep saying it, but, um, yeah you know and that's what you're doing.
Nick Garrard:And so, I find that in the past, probably three or four years, a large part of my legal practice even has been that education piece. So I host, you know, I'll host a training session on how to do X, y or Z, how to handle this bankruptcy, how to you know, kind of general sessions, because I want my clients to be able to have that information, to know what they can do on their own and what you know the way things should happen, so that when they, when a problem arises, you don't just immediately have to call and hire a lawyer. You can have, you have some knowledge and know what to do, how to handle it. And if something you know say you have a list of five things and if you know at some point it falls off the rails, okay, well then maybe you need to call and talk to a lawyer that education piece is vital. That's why I'm excited about where the association's headed. I think it's going to make my job easier, which is great.
Shed Geek:Yeah, you want that educational piece out there so that you don't end up dealing with these things later. I think you said it early in the call. You know. I hope you don't have to call me unless it's, you know, just getting things established. Yeah, as opposed to me having to defend any actions. That's always a sign of, you know, negativity. I guess that you know. But that's why you're here, that's why you provide a service. Where do you think it's going? I almost, I almost want to ask this question because I'm curious. You have an answer to it, you know. My, my, my, my primary question is where do you think it's going? My secondary question is just how much does rent to own prop up the industry in your opinion? Is it a large section of contracts that are out there and, if so, would that have any effect on the industry long term? But where do you think it's going? Maybe you can wrap all those up into one question that you can answer comprehensively.
Nick Garrard:That's. You know that's a good question and I hate to keep kind of throwing it back off on the association, but really, I mean these are the questions that the board members have been asking themselves. These are the questions that the board members have been asking themselves and you know they want to know the size of the industry, the percentage of people involved with Renton, the percentage of those people that are involved with the association there hasn't been a real detailed analysis of, I think, the association as a whole and to know, you know, where we are now versus where we're going, and that's part of what we're excited to be doing. You know, I think that where we're headed with the membership offerings conference is great. I think it will continue to grow.
Nick Garrard:I see my role, like I said, in the past three or four years there's been almost a shift where, yes, I'm still doing a lot of what I've done for the past ten years. I'm still doing a lot of what I've done for the past 10 years, but a greater emphasis on training, training customers, working with staff, whereas, you know, in years past maybe somebody, something went wrong I would just get an email saying here's a, here's a file for you to handle and please help us get this building back or whatever. Now I see a lot more management, internal and helping groups like that and helping them work on projects themselves. I think you'll see more of that. I think there's room in the industry for the smaller groups, where you just have a manufacturer who's wanting to sell or rent on sheds, and that's great. Who's wanting to sell or rent on sheds, and that's great.
Nick Garrard:There's room in the industry for people that are working in 10 states. There's people that are working in 50 states. You know there's a place at the table for everybody. We're going to make the membership and the association work for all of those people, um, and we, we want it to be a group, a group effort, because, um, every each of those people the small one, mom and pop store, I'd say to the 50 states have, uh, have a lot to offer and different perspectives, and we're, we're, we want to have all of those perspectives in our, in our industry and in our association. So, um, in that respect, I don't, I don't want to see um too much change, because I like, I like that there's different sizes, different groups. I like that there's a large collaboration from coast to coast. So, I think that'll stay the same, and I expect it will, and I'm happy that it will because it's good for all of us.
Shed Geek:Who can be involved in Rent to Own, Nick? Is there anybody that shouldn't be, can't be well, we don't want.
Nick Garrard:Well, I shouldn't say we don't want you. We want people that that you know they want to serve their customers well and offer a service. It's not just a business opportunity. I mean you've got to see it as more than that. Anybody can be involved, obviously, and know insurance claimants make the insurance industry look bad. We want people that want to be in the industry and that see it as a way to help and to help others, and that's really what I think of. I mean, that's those. Those people make the best businessmen and managers, and they make the best clients. And so, everybody's, everybody's welcome and we want you to be involved.
Shed Geek:Yeah, Very good man. An hour goes by too fast, Honestly, when we're talking it. Just you know there's so much conversation to be had and I like to tell people being on the podcast is less intimidating than they may realize. We even invite you know competitors on, even competitors in the rent-owned space. We love to have good conversation because I feel like, uh, you know, healthy debate and conversation and encourages us all and like I learned from that and I think iron sharpens iron I think others learn from that too, and to be able to put free content and conversation out there for people to listen to is always encouraging. So, you know we have an open mic for everybody.
Nick Garrard:Well, it's, you know, bad lawyers make bad laws. The good lawyers, although they might challenge you a little more, but you grow in a different way than if you're dealing with. You know. Somebody that didn't you know is not a great lawyer. I don't know that might sound mean, but I'm just, yeah, I'm open for that healthy, open, honest debate and it makes us all better.
Shed Geek:Yeah, absolutely Any thoughts that you want to give. Like we would definitely. Uh, we'll link this maybe to the NSRA website, um, you know, so that, uh, people know where to go. There's always on our newsletter there's always a description of today's show. I'm assuming you want it to go there. We're happy to link it to your law practice if you would prefer that either way.
Nick Garrard:Yeah, happy for you too. That'd be great, yeah. Yeah, you've got my info and details. That'd be wonderful if you want to do that, and you know I just I'm looking forward to seeing everybody in Knoxville. It's a great opportunity to see everybody again, and you know it'll be a lot of fun. So, I hope everybody comes. I hope new people come. So please, please reach out if you need anything from me in the meantime. If anybody wants to know how to get a hold of you, how would they do that? They can go to. Our website is WilkinsPatterson. com. W-i-l-k-i-n-s-p-a-t-t-e-r-s-o-n. com.
Nick Garrard:You can Google me, Nick Garrard. My number is 601-366-4343. That'll roll right to my cell phone if I'm not here, so call me text me whatever you need.
Nick Garrard:Perfect. Any final thoughts you want to share? No, this has been fun. I'm always happy to answer questions, so I love this industry. I love the people that I work with. It's a privilege to represent them and the association and it means a lot to me to be here and to do that and I just am thankful for that, thankful for your podcast, and just hope you continue to prosper and do well and look forward to seeing you soon.
Shed Geek:Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. It really is a good industry to be in, as all industries are. They come with their fair share, you know, of not fun um, but overall it's. I've met some lifelong friends through this and some, just some, some people that really have inspired me to be better, uh, to do better, um, some very wise counsel and like that's just um, that's really priceless at the end of the day. So, uh, any questions for me? Podcast related, shed related, just anything at all.
Shed Geek:I always like to hit people up at the end of it and say I spend a lot of time asking you questions. Do you have any questions? What'd you have for lunch? You know what I had? I had Dairy Queen chicken strip basket. We have been going. Hey, there we go. We have been eating at home every single day. Me and my wife have been on this journey to focus on healthier eating, living and all of that. And today I had three podcasts, and a marketing call lined up and I said I'm not going to get away from the desk aside from all other calls, and so she's like I'll just run and get Dairy Queen real quick. So that's your Shed Geek on a Thursday afternoon and a rainy day here in Metropolis, Illinois.
Nick Garrard:There's nothing wrong with that. Everybody needs a little Dairy Queen here and there.
Shed Geek:Yeah, that's right. Well, it was fun as usual. Hang on here. I'll chat with you just before we get out of here, but I do want to say thank you for being on. We'd love to make this a like that. It's a pleasure that we can even have this conversation, that people can come together for that, for that purpose.
Nick Garrard:I agree and I'm happy to. I'll join you anytime, Just let me know.
Shed Geek:Appreciate it. Thank you, Nick All right Thank you.
Outro:Thanks again, Shed Pro, for being the Shed Geek's studio sponsor for 2025., if you need any more information about Shed Pro or about Shed Geek, just reach out. You can reach us by email at info@ Shedgeek. com, or just go to our website, www. shedgeek. com, and submit a form with your information and we'll be in contact right away. Thank you again for listening, as always, to today's episode of the Shed Geek podcast. Thank you and have a blessed day.