A Journalist in the Deep End - Eric Herman

Myth, Memory, and the Real Story Behind the Water

A Conversation with Eric Herman | Talking Pools Podcast

Some voices in an industry don’t simply report the story — they shape how the story is told.

In this episode of Talking Pools, host Natalie Hood, Director of Education and Network Development for The Grit Game, sits down with one of the most influential storytellers the aquatic industry has ever produced: Eric Herman, Vice President of Communications for Watershape University and longtime editor of the legendary publication WaterShapes Magazine.

For more than four decades, Herman has documented the evolution of pools, fountains, spas, and aquatic design — not merely as a trade reporter, but as a historian of water itself. His work spans the early days of modern pool construction journalism at Pool & Spa News, the groundbreaking launch of WaterShapes Magazine in 1999, and today’s digital continuation of that legacy through watershapes.com, a library containing more than 5,000 articles chronicling the craft, science, and culture of water.

But this episode isn’t just about history.

It’s about myths — the assumptions, half-truths, and inherited wisdom that circulate through the pool industry and public perception alike.

And in a conversation that moves effortlessly between science, storytelling, and cultural memory, Herman and Hood begin dismantling some of the most persistent myths surrounding swimming pools, safety, and water chemistry.

A Journalist in the Deep End

Eric Herman’s journey into the aquatic world began not with pools, but with curiosity.

His first published article in 1986 — for Orange Coast Magazine — examined the emerging microbrewery industry. Within three years, that curiosity would lead him to an interview in Los Angeles with pool industry pioneer Jim McCloskey, then editor of Pool & Spa News.

The result was a career that has now stretched 40 years.

At Pool & Spa News, Herman covered everything from service techniques and plaster science to drowning prevention — topics that would later shape the direction of aquatic education and professional training across the industry.

When Herman and McCloskey launched WaterShapes Magazine in 1999, they intentionally broadened the conversation beyond swimming pools.

The publication examined water as a design medium.

Pools, fountains, ponds, streams, water parks, hot springs, landscape architecture, and hydrological design all found a home in its pages.

The result was a publication that changed how aquatic professionals thought about their craft.

Today, that legacy continues through the digital platform watershapes.com, publishing twice monthly and maintaining one of the most comprehensive archives of aquatic design knowledge anywhere in the world.

Myth Busting Begins

Hood frames the conversation around a theme she frequently explores on the show: myths in aquatics.

But Herman begins by reframing the idea of myth itself.

Traditionally, he explains, myths weren’t falsehoods. They were symbolic stories meant to communicate deeper truths. The modern use of the word — describing something widely believed but factually incorrect — is almost the opposite.

With that philosophi

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Welcome back to the Talking Pools Podcast, your go-to source for everything wet and wild and wonderfully misunderstood in the pool world. I'm Natalie Hood, Director of Education and Network Development for The Grit Game. And today we're busting some myths with a voice that has shaped how our industry thinks, learns, and evolves. We're talking communication, storytelling, and the kind of insight that really only comes from decades spent documenting the best and sometimes the worst of water shaping and aquatic design. Joining me is Eric Herman, vice president of communications for Water Shape University, and has also been a writer and editor with more than 40 years of experience in his long tenure leading Water Shapes magazines. You know, few people have had a closer view of trends, innovations, and personalities that have defined this industry. And so before we dive into the evolution of watershaping, the role of education, and really the stories that have shaped your perspective, Eric, I'd love for our listeners to get to know you a little bit more. So how about you tell us, you know, your journey? How did you get into writing and where did you, you know, find this love for aquatics that ultimately Water Shape University?

SPEAKER_04 2:05

First of all, great to be with you. And hello to everybody who has logged in wherever you may be. Um I have always my entire professional life, I've been a writer-editor, and um actually did what I went to college for.

SPEAKER_05 2:27

People do. Some do.

SPEAKER_04 2:28

I was lucky enough to do it, and it's something I've always loved doing writing. You know, back in grade school, I always gravitated towards English and language, and I love history, and it's a way to satisfy an insatiable, insatiable curiosity that I have about almost everything. And so I started in this industry. Oh, I wanted to point out too that I'm very proud of the fact that this month marks my 40th, 44-0 years working as a writer, editor, journalist, professional spinner of yarns. And uh so my first article I ever published back in 1986 was with Orange Coast magazine. And appropriately it was about the subject of beer, the budding microbrewery industry at that time. And why they gave me that assignment, well, you know, year and a half out of college. You fill in the blanks. But beer was a very appropriate topic for my first article. And then I went on to do more technical stuff. I wrote my second article, it was about geodesic dome homes. I uh did a bunch of business profiles for a local uh business magazine, did got into all sorts of stuff, and then I really wanted to land a full-time gig in writing. That was my ambition. And I answered an ad in the Los Angeles Times in 1989, and I went to an interview in downtown LA, well, technically Koreatown. I met a fellow by the name of uh Jim McCloskey, who is a legend in the pool industry. He was editor of uh Pool and Spa News at the time, and uh he hired me as an associate editor uh in the fall of 89, and my uh area was uh more technical stuff. Uh wrote a lot about service and water chemistry and construction, and I was around for the very beginning of the plasters council, and they they put me on that kind of beat and uh also covered like the drowning prevention. Kind of comes they kind of gave that subject to the new guy because it was a bummer.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

It is it is a very hard subject, I won't lie. I've had a few people on here and they've they've talked Casey McGovern with um every child a swimmer, and I'm telling you, I had to grab my tissues.

SPEAKER_04 5:12

It is uh a really difficult subject for the industry. And so I was there for I don't know, six and a half, seven years, worked with some fabulous people. Uh another familiar face from that era was uh my dear friend Rebecca Robletto, who's still with Pool and Spawn News, and and they were just it was just a really great staff and a time when the industry was going through a lot of changes. I left that position in '96, and Jim and I and other people, he started a company that was not focused on the on the industry. We were doing magazines for other things, other industries. But then after about three years, we decided, he decided to uh go back at the pool industry to do a publication because we felt like there was a different way to approach it from an information standpoint. And that is what led to the beginning of Water Shapes magazine, which launched in uh 1999, February 1999, and uh was in print until uh 2011. During that time, I was the founding editor of it, and Jim was the publisher. We started on this journey of trying to cover water as a design element from the design, engineering, and construction standpoint. And while it always had its roots in the pool industry, water shapes from the very beginning to this day goes far beyond that in terms of content. We wanted to push the tent posts wider to be more inclusive of landscape architecture and things like ponds and streams and fountains and water parks and springs, hot springs and natural bodies of water, and water is a resource. And to you know, look at it in a way that was, in a lot of ways, more inclusive than what you have in the standard trade publishing model. And so that's water shapes was that then, and it's that to this day. And in terms of my own personal trajectory, the magazine went out of print in the recession, and we kind of broke up the band. And I got hired by Aqua magazine as their senior yeah, as their senior love those guys. I worked with them as their senior editor for nine years, and um I'm still very close. Still publish stuff with them, they pick up stuff from Water Shapes, we have a very close relationship. I'd I'm really appreciate them.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Yeah. Lacey Davis, uh the CEO of The Great Game, I believe she writes a monthly article for Aqua. And anytime we have a press release, Aqua is the first to one of the first magazines to publish it. I mean, they're just absolute, they're just good, solid people.

SPEAKER_04 8:19

Oh yeah, they do a great job. They really do.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:22

And um, you know, but I want to back up a little bit. The the Water Shapes thing, one of the big features of it was uh that it was really integral and worked hand in glove with the early Genesis 3 program. And we were the first publication to really promote what they were doing. They came from outside uh the established educational organs of the pool industry, and uh were trying to do something new. And we knew those guys from before, from our pool and spa news days, and so we teamed up and for gosh, forever the publication. It was, you know, we were promoting what they were doing, using a lot of their instructors and students as writers and you know, contributors. And uh that went along for a long, long time. And we were really proud to be a part of that movement. Well, you know, business things change. And uh basically when Water Shape University happened, that was uh Dave Peterson and Bill Drake, who had been we had been working with for 20 years at that point, started they're fun guys, and they're they're so much knowledge in the industry. Well, you know, they were uh primary instructors and architects of the education within Genesis for a long time. And you know, they have their own story, but uh they broke off, left Genesis, and decided to start Water Shape University in 2019. And at that time uh they wanted to acquire Watershapes, the publication, which had continued as an online um vehicle from after it went out of print. Uh Jim kept it going. And so long story short, they hired me to take over as editor of the publication as an online thing, uh back in 2020, right when the pandemic shut down.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

I remember that. I had just had my first baby.

SPEAKER_04 10:38

It was yeah, what a crazy time that was. So I've been in back at the helm of Water Shapes as the editor since that time and have continued on, you know, as part of Water Shape University. And I participate with Water Shape University and other communication capacities, but my primary job by far is uh doing this online publication, Watershaped Stock, that comes out twice a month. And that that's the story there. And so um so it started way back in 89. And boy, you talk about the development, the evolution, you know, the changes. If you compare the industry then to now, it's it's a completely different animal in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Yeah, night and day. And I You know what time it is?

SPEAKER_02 11:29

Wednesday vibes on the talking pools, but I'm rolling time, but I'm tuning in the Natalie's on the time.

SPEAKER_03 11:58

Hey, pool talkers and myth busters, Rudy Stankowitz here. I don't usually crash Natalie's episodes, but today calls for a brief interruption. First, today's guest, Eric Herman, deserves a moment of recognition. Whether he knows it or not, Eric has had a profound influence on me personally. His work helped shape my own desire to write within this industry, a path that ultimately led me to my column in Aqua Magazine. For many of us who care about the craft, the history, and the storytelling of water, Eric's voice has been part of the foundation. If you're not familiar with him yet, pay attention. You're listening to one of the true historians of our field. Second, and just as important, this episode marks a milestone for the Talking Pools podcast, our 1000th episode. It's hard to imagine a more fitting combination than Natalie Hood at the microphone and Eric Herman across the conversation. Curiosity, history, education, and a willingness to challenge the myths we've all inherited, that's exactly what this podcast set out to do. So Natalie, Eric, congratulations. And to everyone listening, thank you for being part of the first thousand. Let's keep going.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

Yeah, night and day. And I, you know, when you when you're talking about some of your interests, you mentioned that you, you know, you really enjoy history. Believe it or not, I absolutely am such a history junkie. I love history. That was my favorite subject in school. And when I was in college, you know, when you're generally when someone goes to college, then they hope to kind of finish at that college. But when you marry in the military, you tend to move around quite a bit. And so I actually enjoyed it, but I had to take my history class probably four or five different times. But it was really cool because I got to learn the different history based on that state and where I was located. But, you know, you're you've really been able in these 40 years been able to see the history and the evolution of swimming pools, aquatics, construction, you know, renovation, design, building. And so I, you know, I thought that was so cool. And you and I, shoot, we were working together for a while and didn't even really know it. You and I first met, what was it at the education vacation watershapes in last December?

SPEAKER_04 14:48

Uh, back in December, I was surprised that we'd been in, you know, the same universe and really hadn't never known each other before. I've done a lot of work on the stuff that the National Swimming Pool Foundation did. And, you know, some of the legendary names that were involved in some of the earlier studies the NSPF did. You know, they did groundbreaking work in diving and water safety and suction entrapment. And of course, they uh were the original authors of the CPO program. And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

They did it a lot for this this industry. And so I I just love that you're you know, you're continuing to work with WaterShape, and that's awesome that you guys are putting out two articles a month. That's amazing. I love it. And so, and people can find this online at Watershape.

SPEAKER_04 15:36

Yeah, you go to Watershape. I'll I'll plug it shamelessly. Here you go to watershapes.com, you sign up, it's free. You start getting these email newsletters, and they they contain each one contains three original feature articles. So we do six a month, and uh then there's old stuff that we rerun and stuff about Watershape University notices of their upcoming programs, and uh and uh we're writing good English, yeah. Stickler, man. And uh the the website itself, watershapes.com, is really fun. It's got everything that's ever been published in print, online, on the publication in perpetuity. And it's about 5,000 articles. Covering the breath, I mean, there's a lot of stuff there. You can it's an amazing body of work and it's a big website, and you know, really proud to still be a part of it.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Yeah. Well, and so, you know, typically on Wednesdays, I like to do myth busting, right? And so who better to ask our historian, right? Than some of these common myths that we we we all hear. And so I'm just gonna kind of dive right into it head first.

SPEAKER_04 16:52

Let me I want to say something about this before we dive right into it head first. I thought a lot about this when you, you know, we first started talking about doing it. And because I overthink things, I started looking about like the question of myth. What it what do we mean when we say this is a myth? Well, it's something that's untrue. But in the traditional sense, the way the meaning of myth is very different than the way it's commonly used today. Traditionally, a myth is a story that tells a profound truth, but using symbolism to do it. And nobody believes that it's literally true, you know, in in mythology. You talk about history. I mean, I probably comes as no surprise to anyone that I'm a big fan of mythology.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

So is my husband, big time.

SPEAKER_04 17:44

Yeah, and nobody thinks that there was a guy named Icarus that flew too close to the sun on wings of wax, they melted and he fell and died into the sea. You know, it's like who thinks of that? Well, but if you the story represents, you know, the perils of ambition and ego. And it has a really profound truth that it tells. And uh, I think it also says a lot about bad material selection in the case of Icarus and Wax Wings. But if you look at myths, they almost all have that component to it where it's a fanciful story that says something oftentimes profound about ourselves and the world we live in. And so that's the traditional myth. And, you know, the myth in the myth busting realm is something that's not true, that's generally believed to be true.

SPEAKER_05 18:43

Right.

SPEAKER_04 18:43

So that's almost the opposite meaning. And then, you know, I got thinking there's all this language about untruths, you know, misconception, deception, wives' tales, which just seems unfriendly, you know. And so, but it's like the show Mythbusters.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

I got this idea. I used to love that show when I was younger, Mythbusters.

SPEAKER_04 19:07

Loved that showed it. It would not have been a hit if it was called Misconception Busters. Yes. So in the common parlance of the times, uh the myths here are things that are believed by some people to be true, but to varying degrees are not. It's kind of an interesting uh intellectual exercise. I personally like the word canard, which is like a popular falsehood. Canard busting sounds a little unnecessarily painful, if you ask me.

SPEAKER_05 19:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:40

Yeah, no, we're not canard busting. So we're myth busting. So thank you for letting me get my uh professatorial wordsmithing neuroses off my chest, sir. Thanks.

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SPEAKER_01 20:58

So the first one, we have a couple. So the first one, I I heard this when I was growing up, and again, I was a longtime swimmer like Eric Knight, but you have to wait 30 minutes after eating before swimming.

SPEAKER_04 21:10

Yeah, boy, that is the running with scissors version for the aquatics industry. It's like there is, I've looked this up more than once, you know, there is no medical evidence to suggest that that's true. The idea is that, well, you'll start cramping. Well, you know, if you overeat before you exercise, whether you're, you know, swimming or walking, you might become uncomfortable, you know. But uh there's nothing that says that if you eat and then go swimming, you're gonna start cramping up. You know, the other version of I've heard is that, well, when you're digesting food, your body directs the blood away from your muscles to your digestive organs. Well, that's true, but not to the extent where you're not gonna be able to move.

SPEAKER_01 21:59

Yeah. Well, and I think it also depends on what you're eating, right? So if you're sitting there eating a box of donuts and you get in the water, you're you probably might cramp and probably gonna feel nauseated and not feel very good, right? But if you I mean, even when I did swimming before um any of my races, I would have something light before I swam. And then right after, depending on how how much time in between each heat that I had, um, I would definitely snack, but I always made sure it was light, it was healthy, and it was just fuel for my body versus just stuffing my face with like a donut because it's quick and easy.

SPEAKER_04 22:35

As much as we all enjoy stuffing our face with a donut, you're absolutely right. And there's a profound relationship between diet and exercise. You know, to say that this isn't true is not to say that you shouldn't be mindful of. While you're eating before and after exercising, you know? There's a lot of science behind that. I just remember hearing this so much as a kid. You know, my parents were really into that. And it was like, I think that was their idea of aquatic safety, like, oh, don't eat 30 minutes before you go in. Like if you stick your toe in, all of a sudden it's going to cramp, you know?

SPEAKER_01 23:14

Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, my again, my mom would say she'd always make sure I had something to eat before a race or I went swimming, but it always had to be healthy. You know, there's all there's always those snack bars at swim meets. But she would always say, you know, if you want, we can have like a celebratory dinner or lunch after, but until your race races are done, you're going to eat this. And I actually very much appreciate that because it really helped me learn and grow what food to pick and what food not to pick. And of course, everyone indulges, right? But it's, you know, it's that 80-20 rule.

SPEAKER_04 23:44

I think it's also good to point out here about the importance of hydration and exercise.

SPEAKER_05 23:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:50

You want to hydrate before you exercise. You don't, you know, if you get way too thirsty when you're exercising and drink, it's probably too late at that point.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Well, and when you're swimming, you sweat. You sweat when you swim. I mean, when when you're if you're sitting there swimming lots of laps, you need to make sure that you're hydrating. I always will put um, you know, like there's those little gels that a lot of bikers will use. So like take a little gel. I did that a lot of times for swimming, or I'd put electrolytes in my um in my cup or my shaker cup. And I'd always I I would always have something at one lane, one end of the pool, because here I might go swim 20 laps and I'm like, oh man, I'm kind of thirsty. Because you do, you sweat when you swim.

SPEAKER_04 24:30

You sweat when you swim.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

I think I kind of stumped you on that one. So I think we've kind of bummed that one.

SPEAKER_04 24:36

Okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

Yeah. So I feel like you're gonna research what I just said to you after this call, but yeah, I you do sweat when you swim. You do, yeah. But a lot of people, I mean, I said that I don't remember who I said it to, but I said it to someone. They're like, no, you don't. I'm like, you're exercising. Right? You don't need that towel. But so another one that I think is common is chlorine is what causes red and irritated eyes.

SPEAKER_04 25:06

Yeah, and here we go into water chemistry. You know, uh, if there's a subject in the industry that causes debate, has been subject to what a lot of people would characterize as misinformation, even deliberate deception in some cases. Water chemistry is it. You know, the this one kind of opens the door, you know. Chlorine, you talk about getting a bad rap over the years. Chlorine is not perfect. It has, as we'll discuss, there are issues with it, but it is still the most effective way to oxidize and sanitize a pool. Well, people that are like ozone proponents right there would disagree with me. But a lot of people associate negative effects of swimming with chlorine. I think we can all agree on that. The red eyes, irritated eyes, and dry skin, sometimes trouble breathing, is associated with chlorine. And really, it's chloramines. It's, you know, chlorine that has already interacted with organic compounds or organic germs, stuff uh pathogens, you know, when it does its work, combines into disinfection byproducts. Primarily, chloramines are the ones that we're concerned with, but there's other stuff too. You try halomethanes and whole family of chemicals that form as a result of chlorine doing its job, free available chlorine doing its job. And so the real culprit is chloramines when you have those itchy eyes.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Yep. Well, let's let's kind of shift gears a little bit. And I think I will say I have touched on this myth in a couple of some of my other episodes, but I like it because I like hearing the different perspectives of this myth. And so here it goes. Clear water means the pool is clean.

SPEAKER_04 27:03

Yeah. Uh it's natural to think that clear water is safe, but bacteria and other types of pathogens are invisible. And they can be present even at high levels in water that appears clean. And so, you know, water is such a dynamic thing, you know, it it sort of has a life of its own. And you can't make assumptions about it. You know, you can get a good idea that if it's cloudy and gross and filled with algae, you go, well, yeah, you know, there's a problem here. But clean water, clear water can also harbor harmful life forms, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

Yes, it can. And that is not a fun one. Well, and you know, again, I'll say before I dove, you know, swimming long time before before I really got into this part of the industry, learning more right about the education and the hands-on, not just lifeguard swimming, water safety instructor. But I used to go to all these, you know, hotels and or different pools, and I would just jump right in. I'm like, oh, sweet, the pool looks nice, clean, crystal clear. I'm gonna go in, I'll be fine. But now that I've had the opportunity to really read and go through training and, you know, continuously do education, I'm like, ooh. And so I will say, probably for the last, I don't know, 10, 15 years, anytime I travel, if I know there's gonna be a pool there and I'm thinking, well, maybe I'll get some laps in, or maybe, you know, if I'm not too tired from walking the show floor, I'll go swim for, you know, before or after work for an hour or so. But I bring my test strips because there have been times where I have seen a clear or you know, a nice looking clean pool. And then I'll use the test strip and I'll go through all that. And I'm like, you're not clean at all. And I'll ask them, like, do you have, you know, an operator on staffed? You know, do you have someone that's managing the pool, a service company? And a lot of the times, you know, I'll hear, oh, well, you know, it's not required, but we do do this, and you know, we add chemicals. And I'm like, so I'm very cautious and I definitely would extend to those that are listening, you know, homeowners, swimmers, what have you, do your research, make sure that water is clean before you jump in it. And another thing too is, and it's not related, but I am such a stickler. Anytime I walk on the pool deck, I always have sandals on or anytime I shower. And same thing with my kids, you know, they do those weekly swim lessons and they will because they're going to be going into the swim team, hopefully. But I always make sure they have crocs on or something because there are just there's so many different bacteria and viruses on that floor that people are just kind of carrying around.

SPEAKER_04 29:42

You know, I did an article with Aqua a few years ago. It's one of my favorites I've ever done about biofilm. And I learned that biofilm exists anywhere you have water and a surface. So a lot of times it's at a microscopic level. But it's, you know, it's a natural occurring colonization of microorganisms, and it's everywhere. You know, it's in your plumbing in your home. You know, it's in the garden hose, it's it's in your mouth. And so biofilm, you know, contains dozens, if not hundreds, of different types of microorganisms, and the most of them are not harmful, but some of them are, and they can exist anywhere the water is touching a surface and it forms very quickly. And so you have to be aware that when you're aquatic environments, especially are biologically dynamic. And, you know, our natural immune systems can handle a lot of it. A lot of it wouldn't hurt us to begin with, but yeah, having you know, hygiene in and around pools is important. You know, I've always been an advocate of showering before you go swimming, you know, because it reduces the stuff that gets put in the water.

SPEAKER_05 31:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:02

And so there's a lot to be said for being aware hygienically when you're swimming.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Yep. I could not agree more. I could not agree more. Well, here's a fun one. Saltwater, salt water words, saltwater pools don't use chlorine.

SPEAKER_04 31:19

Yeah, that's a popular one uh that was going around for a long time. I remember when saltwater pools were introduced in the 90s, came over from uh it was a technology that came over originally from Australia. And we got a big presentation about it at uh Pool and Spa News back then, and it it just seemed like such an ingenious idea. And a lot of people still really believe in it, uh, even though it's become a lot of people have also become more critical of it. But that a saltwater pool is not chlorinated is just incorrect. What you really have is a chlorine factory in your pool, you know, sodium chloride, you know, it makes hypochlorous acid. And it it it is saltwater pools are chlorinated is a point. And so they kind of I don't yeah, I've mostly heard that from consumers that were under that impression. And uh, it's just not true. They are chlorinated pools, and saltwater pools, the proponents of it will tell you that you know, you're not transporting chlorine, you're only making the chlorine that's necessary. There's a lot of advantages to it. But as time has gone on, you know, people have found there were issues with the water becoming corrosive, issues with controlling total alkalinity. And so, like anything else, saltwater pools have to be managed properly. And yes, they are chlorinated.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

No, no, thank you. But yeah, I I've heard that one for years. Oh, yeah, probably as long as I've been in the industry. And again, I think based on it's where you're located in preference, but you still have to maintain your pool, still have to take care of it.

SPEAKER_04 33:00

So can't just walk out there and brings up a point that there's there is no such thing as a maintenance-free pool. People try to make them more maintenance-friendly, easier to maintain, requiring less effort, less expense, but all bodies of water require maintenance.

unknown 33:18

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Yeah. I mean, it I can't imagine never cleaning my house, especially with two young kids running around and two fur babies and a husband that tracks in mud. Sorry, babe, but um bath boots. But it I mean, it's you're absolutely right. I mean, I there are some days where I might vacuum my house, not the whole house, but the the main living quarters every single day, just because it constantly gets dirty. And so why people think they don't need to give that same, maybe not that, but that type of attention to their pool, it kind of baffles me. You have to take care of it.

SPEAKER_04 33:50

You do have to take care of it, yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Yeah, take care of it. And if you don't know, and if you don't know how to, hire a service company to do so. Easy as that, you know. I mean, my husband was like, I when when he retires, he wants to get a lot of land and we want to build a barn dominum, and I'm gonna get more cats, and we'll get some dogs and we'll get animals. And he was like, you know, I'd really like to have a pool and a hot tub in the backyard. And I'm like, well, I know a few people. Um, but he's like, well, yeah, and you can take care of the pool. And I probably could, yeah. But I know I'm gonna be busy, and so for me, it's less stressful to hire someone to come out or a company to come out and care for my pool. And that's just my preference.

SPEAKER_04 34:30

Well, you know, pool service is a really multi-faceted set of skills, you know. Uh chemistry, hydraulics, you know, I mean physical cleaning. It there's a lot to it. And uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

Yeah. I remember my dad when we had the pool in uh the backyard in Dublin, California, he was out there just about every single day. Yeah, every single day, cleaning, doing chemicals, testing, you know, having some colorful words with the piping when there was a leak of some sort.

SPEAKER_05 35:04

He did.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Yeah, yeah. Yes, and he, you know, anyways, but I always thought it was kind of funny to sit back and watch, but I learned a lot. But the one thing I will say is he was out there every single day on the pool. So well, and kind of with that, this is shifting gears. One that I've that you know, I've seen there's they've made fun of this in a lot of comedy shows. I'm not gonna name the comedy shows, but it's urine in the pool is harmless because chlorine kills everything.

SPEAKER_04 35:30

Yeah, you know, I put this on the list because every year it seems, around this time, going into spring, there's information that circles throughout media about various studies and information statistics about how every pool has pea in it. And uh, that's probably true.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

I mean, I try and yeah, I know some people that definitely don't get out.

SPEAKER_04 35:57

You know, let's call it what it is. Yeah, I always look at people like sitting at swim-up bars for hours on end at resorts.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

Yeah, I don't think you know, I I think those have always been the locations in resorts that I've avoided. I'm like, mm-hmm, no.

SPEAKER_04 36:13

Yeah, no. So this is uh this is a somewhat uncomfortable subject because it's a little gross. Yeah, I mean, chlorine will disinfect any bacteria that results from urine being introduced into the pool and it'll oxidize the compounds within uh urine. So it is true that chlorine, uh uh, you know, proper chlorine residual will handle um a lot of what happens when people pee in a pool. But again, it results in the disinfection byproducts and you know, these combined substances that compounds that occur when chlorine does its work. So the more people pee in the pool, the more chlorine is used, the more disinfection byproducts are formed. And so peeing in a pool is not what you want to do in terms of maintaining proper water chemistry. So yeah, don't pee in the pool if you can avoid it.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

You know, I'll tell you, I it took my girls, uh, the four and six, it took them a little bit of time to understand. They were like, Well, I'm already in the water. I'm like, girl, that's nasty. Get out, use the restroom, and then jump back in. I mean, come on. I so, anyways, no, I could not agree more.

SPEAKER_04 37:27

Well, you know, the other kind of misconception is that there's a chemical out there that will turn blue when you pee in the pool.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

That was I was gonna bring it up. So it's been on a couple different comedy shows, and what was it? I think it was on uh Adam Sandler movie, uh Grown-ups. Do you remember that? They were like out, and then all the dads were in like the the the small like uh two, three foot waiting pool or whatever, and all of a sudden you just saw blue.

SPEAKER_04 37:49

Yeah, but I pretty sure, pretty sure that's that's uh untrue. There are I don't think there is, I've never seen a chemical that does that. Have you?

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Don't think so. I think it's more of a myth to scare.

SPEAKER_04 38:03

Yeah, I think it's yeah, it's kind of like, oh my god, you're gonna get called out, you know, you'll be found out.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

Right. I and I, you know, it's awful, but I think I might have told my youngest one, who again, she's she's done my taxes this year, she's four, but you know, she knows everything. I think I did tell her last year that if she peed in the pool, it would be purple because purple's her favorite color. And I was like, and you don't want people to see that. And she was like, Yeah. Like so now she'll just when she's in swim lessons, she'll come running up. And I'm like, what's wrong? I have to potty. And I'm like, oh, okay, good, go potty. So some guilt, but I I don't think I've seen a product that does that.

SPEAKER_04 38:40

No, I don't think so. And and if there's one out there that does, hey, let me know.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Yeah, right. I'd love to read the article on that.

SPEAKER_04 38:49

Yeah, never seen one.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

Right? You know, another really common one, and I've spoken to a few people about this, but it's if you can swim, you don't need to worry about drowning. And this is, in my opinion, one of the biggest myths, and it always bothers me. And I always go back to the Olympics, right? Because people are like, what is that life gonna lifeguard gonna do? They these are Olympic swimmers. What? You know, just because you know how to swim really well doesn't mean you can't drown.

SPEAKER_04 39:17

No, that's absolutely true. You know, on one hand, it's also true that if you do know how to swim or children that have swim lessons, the statistics really run in your favor for being safe in the water. I mean, you know, I think what step in the swim says it's like 87% more, you know, safer if kids have had swim lessons and safety training. That said, anybody can drown. I mean, you could have a heart attack while you're drowning. You can bang your head or Charlie horse. It's uh swimming, water has inherent risks. You know, I've I've done articles about like what are all the safety hazards in a pool. Well, drowning's one of them, of course, suction entrapment, diving accidents, but then there's like slip and ball, there's electrical safety, there's the biological element that we're talking about. So there swimming always water always carries risks, as do many things in life that we enjoy doing, you know.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

Well, and I think people forget it, it's not necessarily your ability, but it's your awareness.

SPEAKER_04 40:27

Awareness is everything. And and with kids, of course, supervision. The the thing about this uh item is that if you're a parent and your kid is a competent swimmer, that doesn't uh relieve you of the responsibility of uh supervision.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:50

That that needs to be there always with children in the water.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

Yeah, I mean, even when my kids are doing swim lessons, um I, while there's always a guard on deck, my eyes are still watching my kids. You know, especially if one of my kids is on this end and they do it in the therapy pool just so it's warmer, but there might be one of my kids on this side and the other one's in the water. My eyes are still watching my daughter in the water, but my eyes are more focused on the daughter on the edge because here she might want to jump in. And while there is a lifeguard, that's my daughter. And so I'm always keeping my eyes on them. I don't rely on the lifeguard, they're not a babysitter. I am mom, and so I need to keep my eyes and supervise what my kids are doing. What hence why, you know, would I ever take them to a pool by myself? No, absolutely not. A splash pad, maybe, but a pool, no, because I would not be able to properly supervise both kids. Even if they could swim, you know, from one lane to the other, 25 meters. Fantastic. Would I still watch them? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 41:51

Yeah, that's cinema one thing.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

You too, me included. I mean, I've had times where I've I've pressed my luck with training and haven't taken enough breaths. And even though I'm a very good swimmer, um I've pushed myself and unfortunately passed out. And I've been saved by a lifeguard. So yeah, that was fun times.

SPEAKER_04 42:10

Safety is, of course, as we mentioned before, a really big tough subject. And I've always advocated for the idea that we should be empowering consumers to take control of it rather than shying away from it. You know, swim lessons are a big part of it. Supervision's a big part of it. But there's, you know, technical solutions, alarms, and other devices that help. And so it's one of those issues that uh consumers should, if they're buying a pool and they have small children, they should realize that there are inherent risks and there's a lot of things that they can do to dramatically minimize an awareness thing, like you said.

SPEAKER_01 42:59

Well, and even when we bought our house in Tennessee, we did look at some houses with pools, but I said, you know what? I I want to wait till they're a little bit older. It's not to say when they're older, they'll be safer, but for my own just overall comfort level, I was like, I don't want to do this. Um, and you know, that actually brings me to another point is I think a lot of people think that pools are safer than maybe natural bodies of water. But I'll tell you, you know, I've done the Iron Man a couple times. I think it was Augusta, was it Augusta, Georgia? I think it was. It was years ago. But you would all jump in at the same, you know, they have like heats, right? But these would be heats of like 50 to 100 people. And you would jump in and then you, I think it was like a 20, 30 second uh wait, and you you do another big jump in. And they had some lifeguards. They had they were in canoes, right? But I'll tell you, I think um I will say the lifeguards in those canoes were very quick. If someone were to go down or got kicked in the head, they were quickly right there on them. But that's something that I've heard that, you know, poles are safer than natural bodies of water or open water swimming.

SPEAKER_04 44:08

Well, you know, there it's understandable why people would feel that way. You know, there are a lot of barriers to people being comfortable in the water, not being able to see the bottom.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

It's a big one.

SPEAKER_04 44:20

You know. Uh the idea that there are critters swimming around in the water with you that might bite you.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

Baby shark.

SPEAKER_04 44:29

You know, that's that's one. And so, and and you know, there's pools don't have, unless they're built this way, don't have the currents that you find in the ocean or rivers. And so, you know, there's not plant material you can get tangled up in in a swimming pool. So there are elements of it that would create maybe make it safer. In some cases, and certainly make a lot of people more comfortable, but is inherently risky for all of its benefits, for everything it does for us, for as much as we love it, and that's another whole thing we can talk about forever. You have to realize that there are dangers involved. You know, it's not a natural environment for humans to be in water.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

When we're in some something else's territory.

SPEAKER_04 45:20

Yeah, we're not designed for it, really.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

But I will say I actually prefer swimming in open water. Mine is getting kicked in the head when I get the iron man. But I actually prefer to swim in open water than to swim in a pool. I like it. I like my space. I understand the dangers that come with it. Now, do I open water swim in the ocean? No, I don't necessarily like that. Paddleboard, do other things, but I very much enjoy open water swimming in lakes. And I used to do it all the time on my aunt's ranch in um, it was in Merced, California. She had this huge bass lake, and we would always put all these inner tubes together and we called it like a flotilla. And of course, I was younger and the adults were kind of floating and having their beverages, but I really enjoyed jumping in and just swimming around more so than in a pool. But that's just my preference. But you are right. A lot of people are nervous, they can't see the bottom.

SPEAKER_04 46:14

The pool can be a gateway to those other things. You know, somebody learns to swim. It's amazing the number of activities that that opens them up to. Open water swimming, be it in lakes or the ocean, is one of those things, you know. I was really into bodysurfing as a kid.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

I never, I could never was never good at that. Or you mean you mean um when you say bodysurfing, are you are you talking about can't remember what it's called? I should know, boogie boarding.

SPEAKER_04 46:43

I did boogie boarding. I tried bro board surfing like a few times, but really wasn't good at it. And uh I think I got hit in the head by the board at Seal Beach one time and I was just like, forget it.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

It can happen.

SPEAKER_04 46:56

But body surfing is just where you're literally just using your body swimming into the wave and allowing it to catch. I that's what I thought.

SPEAKER_05 47:03

But I wasn't that aspect of it.

SPEAKER_04 47:05

But I mean, it's it's uh there's so many different activities that become available to you by being able to swim.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

I'm gonna move on to our last one. Um, and I I love this. So I um it's swimming pools are modern inventions, and I love it.

SPEAKER_04 47:25

Yeah, that's that history thing that I've that's why I love it. One of the like I think the first known swimming pool, the great bath of Mohij Mohenjo Daro in Afghanistan uh was built in they estimate uh 2500 BC. And what's interesting about it is that vessel which is still there looks a lot like a contemporary swimming pool. It's rectangular, it has steps, it has a drain, it had uh waterproofing. Well, it's all very primitive, of course. Uh, you know, it was fed by a well and probably used for religious ceremonies, they think. It looks like a swimming pool you might see today in a lot of ways. And of course, Roman baths, you know, and Japanese baths, and there's swimming pools, versions of them have been with us for thousands of years. And so, you know, pool builders now are in a great tradition of water shaping that goes back to the beginning of recorded history, and they're a companion to us and have always played a role in human society.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

Yeah, it really has. I mean, I I don't think people realize how long pools have been around. And it always amazes me how they used to build things back then. I mean, look at the pyramids. I think they're still studying how they built those pyramids today.

SPEAKER_04 49:03

Yeah, they don't really know. There's a lot of unanswered questions. And ancient people were, I think, a lot more sophisticated than we realize.

SPEAKER_05 49:13

I think so too.

SPEAKER_04 49:15

They were dealing with uh, you know, big ideas of mathematics and astronomy. I saw once at uh the Roman baths, a lot of them had copper plates because they felt that there that was it was like a sanitizing aspect. There was a cleansing aspect to it. And it turns out, yeah, I mean, copper's algicidal. So, you know, a lot of things that we associate with now have been around a long time. Of course, you know, we didn't have apps, they didn't have apps back then where they could can, you know, remote control their system while driving.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

Yeah, the apps today are crazy. I mean, like Pulbrain has recently done some major changes to their apps, and it's really cool. But yeah, apps are definitely helpful. Well, Eric, I cannot thank you enough for coming on today and sharing some of your knowledge and your wealth of history, definitely in the aquatics. I mean, again, I love history, but I always love seeing someone else's perspective. And, you know, it's worth to those listening, it's really worth remembering that the pool world is full of traditions, assumptions, and you know, the hand-me-down rules that might sound right simply because we've heard them for so long. But, you know, the truth behind some of these myths, and quite most of them, is usually that they're far more interesting, far more important, and, you know, really than the myth itself. And so myths stick around because they're simple, but the real story, the science, the history, the human behavior is what keeps people safe, keeps facilities running well, and you know, keeps our industry moving. And so, Eric, I can't thank you again uh for joining us today. And if someone had wanted to touch base with you or ask you a couple of questions based on what we've talked about today, how could they uh reach to you?

SPEAKER_04 51:04

Well, I am Eric at watershape.org.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

Um that's E-R-I-C.

SPEAKER_04 51:10

Anytime. I am always, always love for hearing from people in the industry. And it's been a pleasure to uh to be here, you know. Love to do it again sometime if that makes sense. And uh, you know, and everyone out there, stay curious, you know, ask questions, you know, be skeptical. We live in an information age that's full of disinformation, and so it really pays to do your own homework and to delve into subjects, whether it's within this industry or anything, you know.

SPEAKER_01 51:42

Absolutely. Yeah, just because you know, again, someone's been saying or doing this for 50 years. I I mean, I've I've spoken to people that have been doing plaster for 30 years one way and they've gone and gotten educated, and they're like, man, I didn't know that. It was just a hand-me-down. So to your point, stay educated and stay curious. Just because something just because someone has said, oh, well, this is what you know has worked for the last 20, 30 years, doesn't mean that you shouldn't be open to change and doing your own research and education. So always educate, educate, educate. And so, Eric, I can't thank you enough for joining us today. And until next time, folks, stay gritty.