Health Inspectors, Logbooks, Liability & Commercial Pools - Steve & Wayne

This week on Thursdays with Wayne & Steve, the guys dive into one of the least glamorous—but most important—aspects of operating commercial swimming pools: documentation, compliance, and dealing with health inspectors. What starts as Steve covering pools while his service manager attends a college graduation quickly turns into a discussion about inaccurate logbooks, misunderstood regulations, and the real-world consequences of bad record keeping. 

Steve shares a surprising encounter involving a health inspector allegedly advising a technician to record “ideal” water chemistry values instead of actual test results. The conversation explores why accurate reporting is essential, why documenting corrective actions matters just as much as recording test results, and how falsified records can create serious liability issues for operators and service companies alike. 

Wayne and Steve discuss the reality that not all health inspectors interpret regulations the same way. Drawing from decades of experience, they explain why building strong relationships with local health departments is critical and why operators should remain present during inspections whenever possible. The hosts also examine situations where inspectors have provided conflicting information and discuss the importance of understanding the actual code rather than relying solely on verbal guidance. 

The conversation expands into the growing controversy surrounding Swimply and other pool-sharing platforms. As more homeowners rent their pools to the public, some states are beginning to classify those facilities as commercial pools. Wayne and Steve break down what that means from a regulatory standpoint and discuss the additional requirements, safety equipment, signage, inspections, and liability concerns that could accompany such a classification. 

Woof Woof: The Insurance Interlude

In this week's insurance segment, Steve is joined by Pat Grignol of the California Pool Association to tackle an unusual situation involving dog daycare facilities operating swimming pools for canine recreation and swim programs. The discussion explores insurance implications, bonding and grounding concerns, installation versus service liability, and the many questions pool professionals should ask before agreeing to maintain unconventional aquatic facilities. 

Pat offers practical guidance on how service companies can protect themselves, including recommendations regarding pool installation responsibilities, contractual protections, and the importance of ensuring proper insurance coverage when servicing specialty facilities. The conversation highlights just how quickly liability can escalate when commercial activities involve animals, customers, and water. 

Also Discussed in This Episode

•  Why cyanuric acid deserves more frequent testing than many operators realize 
•  Commercial pool logbooks and legal documentation requirements 
•  The difference between recording readings and recording corrections 
•  Common inspection issues involving depth markers, handrails, and safety equipment 
•  Why health inspectors often interpret regulations differently 
•  Appealing questionable inspection findings 
•  The shortage of health inspectors in many jurisdictions 
•  Commercial pool requirements triggered by pool rental services 
•  Insurance concerns for specialty pools and animal recreation facilities 
•  Why communication with manufacturers can sometimes be as valuable as consulting regulators 
•  The importance of education and continuing training for inspectors and operators alike 

Sponsored By

•  LaMotte Company 
•  Council for the Model Aquatic Health Code (CMAHC) 
•  BlueRay XL 
•  Aqua Comfort Water Group 
•  Revved Up Apparel 

Key Takeaway

A pool logbook isn't just paperwork. It's a legal document, an operational record, and often your first line of defense when questions arise. Whether you're dealing with health inspections, commercial pool regulations, Swimply rentals, or even doggy daycare pools, accurate reporting and a solid understanding of the rules can make the difference between smooth operations and major headaches. 

📧 Questions for the show?
 talkingpools@gmail.com

Talking Pools Podcast — helping pool professionals stay informed, stay compliant, and stay ahead of the

Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:00

Happy Thursday, everybody, and welcome to the Talking Pools podcast. Thursdays with Stephen Wayne. We all hope that you had a great week. I know we all did. Finally, beautiful weather has it here on the break on the East Coast, finally, but it's hot as hell. It's like 92 outside, Steven, right now, which is not normal for this time of year in May.

SPEAKER_03 0:21

Can't can't wait until it gets down to uh to 58 again in a week, and then it will uh and then everybody and then everybody will get sick. That's right. Wayne, speaking of speaking of getting sick, like I had to go out, you know, and do pools because my sir, my service manager, his son was graduating college and he needed the weekend off and stuff. So I had to go to pools that like I don't I don't go to that often. And I went to them in a respect of being the cleaner.

SPEAKER_06 0:48

Right.

SPEAKER_03 0:48

You know, like most of the time when I go, I'm the the manager and I go there and the other guys are cleaning and I'm like, yo, what's this? Hey, what's this? Like, why are we doing like this, like this? You know, I'm testing the the TDS every time I go. I'm doing a full panel test, the cyaneric acid, all that stuff. And if we have a handle on it with our residential clients, we test a full panel test once a month. Right. And the rule is like if you have if something is off like cyanuric acid or and that's the main one, you know, because it because like you can't be like, okay, cool, we're gonna bring down the TDS in one week, like in one sitting. You would have to prepare for that. Same thing with calcium hardness, you'd have to add less, you know, calcium hardness filled water, fresh water, right? But with the cyaneric acid, you could come and it's at 10 or it's at 20 or it's at you know below 30, whatever. And now what winds up happening is you put in a couple pounds of cyanuric acid into the pool. And you come back the the next month and you test it and it's back down again. So the rule of thumb for me, and you know, what's supposed to be the rule of thumb for my guys is that they're supposed to be checking it once a week for our commercial clients with cyanuric acid because that's something that moves with the TDS and this and the calcium hardness, like that shit's not gonna move that crazy. So, you know, one once a month is fine. But uh, I just think that going there and seeing a bunch of stuff like that was just kind of not crazy, but like I actually thought that my guys were not doing their reporting properly. And you know, at our bigger commercial clients, they have like the hotels, they have a pretty big engineering group. Some some hotels might have 20, 30, 40 guys uh on their engineering crew, right? So they're working all different days and all different shifts and all this stuff. So a lot of them want to have their own logbook. And the logbook basically, you know, you're supposed to put what you tested for, right, what you put in the pool. There's a bunch of other stuff in each state, it's a little bit different, but like bathing, bather load, temperature, all this other stuff, right? And this is information that's required. Required by law. Okay. So that's the first thing.

SPEAKER_06 2:54

Gang, that's important.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

So we have our own separate book because like with so many engineers, like you would just it would get like lost in the shuffle. So if they want to see something, like if we came or what we did, they would go into our book. And if we wanted to see something that they did, we would go into their book. And I go into the book and like nothing is matching up. Like every time they're testing, it's like 40 for alkalinity, then it's 60 for alkalinity, then it's 70, then it's 50, then it's it's kind of fucking all over the place. And in the book, for us, for my guys, I see 100, 100, 100, 100, 100. And I'm like, what is going on? You know, I'm like, something's either really wrong or we're not actually testing the alkalinity. So I let the weekend go by and I, you know, I talked to the guy who was there, my service manager, and I was like, hey, like what are you doing? I was like, we need to have a come to Jesus talk. Like, this is part of our job. There was a bunch of, there was some other stuff that I was like, hey, like you need to like, there's no chemicals for them up there. Like, let's bring a four, you know, there's a whole pallet downstairs. Just bring some up. Like, I should never come on a Saturday as the owner of the company and there's no chlorine there. And like I know that they used a couple over the weekend or what, you know, a couple days before or whatever, but like now they're out of chlorine and they might need some for the weekend. But regardless, I'm like, I don't understand how it's possible that they could always be testing the alkalinity and it's constantly moving. And we're writing in the book that it's at a hundred all the time. I'm like, it's either not possible or you or your test kit is actually messed up. Like, you know, let's test your test kit. And he was like, No, the reason that I've been doing that, he hasn't been doing it for that long. Like we check it once a month, so it's been for the last 18 days or whatever. He told me that a health officer that he met at one of his commercial pools, because all my guys do their own pools, right? He told me that a health officer came. And because the pH was at eight and it was constantly at eight, because he's he's only there twice a week. He's shocking with liquid chlorine, which has a high pH. So you're shocking, it's bringing your chlorine up, it's bringing your pH up. So it's like a roller coaster, you know. So the health officer says to him, Hey, like in the book, like you should really be putting like the ideal range for the numbers. And he was like, Right, but not the real number.

SPEAKER_07 5:10

Not even the real number, right?

SPEAKER_03 5:12

And I was like, that doesn't make any sense. Like, why would someone say that to you? You know? And he was like, I don't know. He's like, I thought it was weird, but he was like, you know, it made a little bit of sense because he was like, I could shut you down if I if I came here and all your readings, uh, let's say your past readings were all out of whack. And I was like, I would have explained to this guy that that is why we put what the reading is, and then we put what we put in the fucking pool. So, like, hey, yeah, it was at eight. I put in 55 ounces of muriatic acid into the pool. And the other things that my guys have been doing, which is just been driving me crazy, is they will put in the log that they put in 1.15 quarts of muriatic acid.

SPEAKER_06 5:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:53

And I'm just like, I I get like you're supposed to look at the book. I want you to look at the book, you know, and it'll tell you, and out of our out of our bigger clients, it will say, hey, you're putting in this much or whatever. But we have it in ounces. We have it in, you know, X amount of ounces. I was like, can you just put it in ounces? Like, I don't even know what 1.15 quartz is. It's I would look it up on the internet and I would put 1.15 quartz in F L O Z and it would say 55 ounces or whatever it is. But the reporting is just so, so super important. And, you know, what it really comes down to for me, I think, is we're using a capturing app. So anytime that we're he, you know, he's putting the real readings in there, but he was doing it because this health officer told him to write in the logbook. Like he basically was like, don't put any anything out of the range or you could get shut down. Yeah, like almost scaring the shit out of him. So I I, you know, obviously we've corrected that, but my my point of this, you know, opening segment here is that if you have 10 health officers come, and this is the time to talk about it because all your pools just opened. A lot of your pool, a lot of your health officers, they don't come around until your pool is open. So your health officers are coming around soon. If the health officer comes to your pool and you are there, I honestly could give a shit what else you have to do unless you're taking your kid to a soccer game or practice or something that's that important. Stay. You got another site to go to, stay. Push that back. Stay with the health officer. I've had health officers before, Wade, where I, you know, we were at a commercial pool and I'm still trying to get stuff situated. So I'm like moving around while she's there. And she comes into the, you know, I come into the pump room and she's sitting there in a chair, like sitting there counting band-aids to make sure that we have a hundred band-aids. And that's why, like, we don't we buy a uh a first uh you know, state mandated first aid kit. And then I say, here, don't touch this, don't open it. Literally just leave it in the package, and when they come, you say, here's our here's our kit. And then at the end of the year, you buy another one and then you start using that kit. Right. Like, you know, like they're they're band-aids, they're not gonna expire. Right. But I've had health officers tell me, hey, we we wanna see this. And I'm like, you want to see, see what? And they're like, oh, we want to see, you know, this says constant disinfection. We want to see an IPS controller or an Intellichem or whatever. It's five, you know, a couple thousand dollar machine in there. And let's face it, constant chlorination can mean that you have an erosion feeder where you use trichlor tablets. Right. Or you could have a, you know, cal hypo feeder or cal hypo tablet feeder. My whole point is there's not one way to skin a cat here. And the same thing goes for the health officers that are out there. There's a lot of really good health officers, and you know, you really should be working with them like a team. But again, at the end of the day, if there's 10 health officers that come out and go to the same pool and give 10 inspections, all 10 inspections are going to be a little bit different.

SPEAKER_06 8:53

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 8:54

And because there's some people that, you know, focus on certain things and they overlook other things. Where I've come and I've had them say, hey, everything's good. And then I find out that, you know, one of my commercial clients, I go there and I'm like, we don't they redid the pool, but where there's no handrail here. Like I just talked about that the other day, and like there's literally no handrail in the pool, Wayne. You know, they don't have depth markers on the the deck. And I told them, like, you have to get these depth markers for the for the law. And they were like, Oh, well, the health officer came and we didn't uh we didn't we didn't fail for it. They didn't say anything about it. So seems like we're we're good. Now, health officers are busy, Wayne. You know, they they take care of not just the swimming pools, they also are taking care of like tattoo shops and and also restaurants, which is their biggest moneymaker, right? Because those are the places that you know they're giving them the health, the actual health grade, which is kind of funny that they don't give the swimming pool a health grade. And uh, you know, would it would it matter? Because you you always see people that are in these pools that you can't even see the bottom, and you're like, I can't believe these people are in this pool right now. So, like, even if there was a a thing on the wall where it said F grade, like people they still want to they still want to swim. I just saw an article the other day that in Buffalo there's like only one public pool for the whole city that stays open all year long. So there it was that's a that's a crazy staggering, you know, number. So these guys are really, really busy. Um, there was just a an article that came out that said, and this has been on the table for a while, like a year or so in Minnesota. They were talking about it, but they're trying to now make legislation that's you know, swimpley. So that's like the the app, and it's basically like Uber for your pool.

SPEAKER_06 10:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:38

Right? So you can say, okay, I have a pool and I want to get connected for people that want to rent my pool, and then you can set your price. I actually was just looking it up. It's like anywhere from like $35 an hour to $200 an hour, and uh you can rent your pool out, and uh they're saying now that that makes it a commercial pool.

SPEAKER_07 10:58

Yep. And that's what happened when when it first when when Airbnb had the pool version of that, I forgot what the word what the letters were. It was the same thing. They uh they said that now that you have established a business by renting out this residential pool, it is now a commercial pool, which therefore means it needs to be regulated by your local health department. And of course, the uproar that that went along with that, you know, they're invading my private property. Well, you just put your private property up for up for public use. Hello? That's called a commercial pool. So it it's the same concept, just call it a little bit different, but you you just open yourself to so many levels of potential liability, it's not even funny. So and you're you're insurance.

SPEAKER_03 12:59

Hey everyone, and welcome to another episode of Woof Woof, the insurance interlude. So as always, it's your host, Steve Sherwood from Thursdays with Stephen Wayne, and then our guest host who comes on weekly, the vice president of California Pool Association, Pat Grignol. So, Pat, I gave you a little doggy hello there because uh I just got myself out of, I'm not gonna call it doggy hell, but like uh I I've got some questions. And I've been in the pool industry, you know, 18 years now, what almost 20 years now, and uh I've just every year it seems like I come across something new that like I've never touched base on before. And in the past 10 years, we've come out with a lot of different things that like don't qualify as pools, right? So you've got your cold plunges, you've got your, you know, different types of like uh uh sensory deprivation tanks, right? Where like, is it a commercial pool? Is it not a commercial pool? Because it's like it's a little tub that only one person is using all at the same time, like not at the same time with other people by themselves, but like you still have to filter it, you still have to drain it, you still have to clean it, you still have to chlorinate it. So there's a lot of things that go on with this, with these different types of pools. And I work with a vendor where I am a vendor for someone who has these clients, and it's these couple of like doggy daycare places, like uh Camp Runamot, or you know, whatever you want to call it. That's not the name of it, but it the name doesn't really matter as much as what's going on there. So they called me out to do an assessment, and you know, I went out, they wanted me to like clean and fill the pool, and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like let's let's back up. Like, I I don't even know if the pump is working, I don't know if you are bonded and grounded properly. Like, let's let's figure this stuff out first. Like, how about I come and I take a look at these pools, and I don't know if I would even classify these things as pools, you know, like the in-text, like 12 by 24 with like the PVC that like holds the vinyl liner up. I do, yeah. That's that's what these things are. So these places don't just have, and they're looking to like get up and have dogs all day in the pool. They're like looking to do swim lessons, they're looking to like make revenue off of this pool. So they want to get it up. They were like, can we do it by Friday? I was like, it's fucking Tuesday, man. Like they're like, we might get you the proposal by Friday, but like nothing's happening before that. So my question to you, Pat, is before I get my hands, my paws all dirty with this, you know, what are some things that I need to number one think about? Because like some of these pools, one of them can just be filled up and we just need to add like its own sand filter and like a you know, regular variable speed pump. But none of them are bonded and grounded. So all the pumps were plug-ins, um, which is obviously whether you're residential or commercial, it doesn't really fucking matter, right? You have to be you have to be hardwired in. Like it's one thing to have like a you know, like a deck vacuum that my guy comes and he he plugs it in real quick to do a quick vacuum of the pool where we know it's not there's no rain or anything like that. But the biggest fear there, right, is during rainy season is that somebody gets electrocuted or something like that. So, first, like what are some of the things from an insurance standpoint that I need to as a company watch out for? And then, like, do you think this is a commercial pool? And uh, how much money do I need to charge to take this on?

SPEAKER_04 16:32

Yeah, a lot of moving parts to that, that's for sure. You know, look, just looking at it from an insurance standpoint, I don't know, a good way of thinking about it is, you know, it's the, you know, the it's the you know, off the shelf, you know, PVC and vinyl, you know, kind of yeah, throw it together, do it yourself, above ground pool. But I still think it fits the definition of an above-ground pool from an insurance standpoint. They might be a little bit smaller, but you know, I I don't I don't see anything in policy language that would differentiate like specifically what is an above-ground pool. Is it made of certain specs? That's not to say there couldn't be policies out there that exist with that wording and it has to fit a certain mold, but none of the ones that I've seen, and certainly not ours, has uh any sort of specs that you need to meet for that. Because it's kind of like if I dug a hole and put the the in-text thing in the ground, does that make it an in-ground pool, right? Uh so most policies don't necessarily differentiate. Check with your insurance agent, but most policies don't differentiate between above-ground and in-ground pools. So from an insurance standpoint, you're really just, and I'll phrase this specifically, like you're really just servicing an above-ground pool. Now, I there's the there's likely not any exclusions for who or what is getting in the pool. I haven't seen any, but I'll tell you, most insurance companies would probably non-renew it or get off of the policy if they knew it was being used for, you know, basically a you know, a doggy daycare type of type of scenario, right?

SPEAKER_05 18:01

This isn't me, this isn't me as my insurer. This is we're just theoretically talking about doggy daycares.

SPEAKER_04 18:08

Yeah, so I so if something happened, you like they likely would have to provide you coverage and then they would non-renew you. I think if you were looking at like that place should have because a lot of the doggy daycares have, you know, different types of pools and whatnot for the dogs, so they should have some sort of dog camp insurance on their home on right.

SPEAKER_03 18:29

So, what you're saying is I should be I should definitely be with them additionally insured if I was gonna have some sort of contract with them. The other thing that I think is just a non-negotiable really is like uh if anything fucking happens at this pool, you're not gonna hold us responsible. To to the guilt. Really, really what it comes down to because there's just so many situations. Like, you know, the we I was sitting there with the one manager and he was like, Oh, do you want to go see the waterfall? I like this is after I'm finished, you know. I'm like, what do you mean waterfall? Like, what are you talking about? There was a whole nother pool in the back that was like a like a one-foot pool with like a sand filter and like an old you know pump that was actually hardwired and stuff. But the manager, the other manager was like, Hey, like we need to like we can't leave the dog in there. And he was like, Oh, but like he's probably okay with dogs. And she was like, No, for liability reasons, like he we can't like what if the dog bites him? What if he jumps on him? Like, what if something happens? And like there are so many instances where something could happen or insert whatever, like you know, what happens if one of the dogs goes and chews the wire? Yeah, you know, and get the dog gets electrocuted. And like the only thing I always say this in CPO class, Pat, like the the thing that like you just don't know how people will act if something happens to their significant other, God forbid something happens to their kid. And you could also put in there, you know, something happens with their pet as well, too. Absolutely. Where, you know, if something happened, like that person would be like, We just lost our dog, like we're traumatized, like we're totally gonna sue the doggy daycare, you know. And then I get we get roped up into, you know, hey, like it's not our fault that the dog got through the gate, jumped over the other one, went underneath the pool, started chewing the wiring, and now we're in a situation where, you know, I'm the last person that maybe installed that or whatever. And like I said, there's a lot of moving parts to this because, like, first, does it matter if I'm the one that installed the pool? You know, like, is it any less liability for me? Like, if they're buying an in-text pool, would it be better for me to be like, hey, we're gonna come and remove it for you? Which is obviously there's just so many questions, right? Like, who removes the fucking pool? Yeah, do they remove the pool and then we come in and install the new pool? Like, uh, do they install the new pool and then we come in? Because, like, also all of these places, these in-text pools come with like these baby 16-inch top mount sand filters, which I'm a big top-mount sand filter guy, but like at least 24 inches for like a 10,000 gallon pool. And then as it goes up, the the sand filter incrementally gets you know 30 inches. And once you get into like 36 inches, now you have to put a side mount multi-port, and there's a bunch of different questions and stuff on there. But you know, am I any less liable if I'm just the servicer as opposed to the installer? Because like now I'm the only one that's been like involved with this pool, right? It can't be like the the the last service guy or or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 21:35

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Look, I think you know, for for service and repair companies, like normally the insurance policies aren't gonna cover, you know, installation of a ground above ground pools or pool building or pool remodels or anything like that, obviously in ground, but uh I would certainly recommend that they set up, you know, those things are intended to be set up by the consumer, right? So they don't need to, you know, they don't need to be CPO certified or have any experience to. Set the in text thing up. So I would certainly have them set it up and then come provide service, but that at least eliminates any sort of uh questions or liability about it was set up wrong. At least you could identify if it was set up wrong and say, hey, this isn't correct. And you know, that's all part of a normal, uh, normal service uh service call type of thing. So I would recommend that you have them set it up themselves. Then if there's something wrong with it, you know, that's okay to go in there and fix it, but have them put it up initially.

SPEAKER_03 22:28

Okay, and have them remove the sands from the sand filters and remove those too.

SPEAKER_04 22:34

Well, that's all part of so if you follow if you can follow the same thing about like I'm just servicing an above-ground pool. If you can remove the installation of the above-ground pool, like you're able to clean the filter out, you're able to add sand, remove sand, change the medium, the whole ball of wax, like under a store a standard service policy. So I'd have them set it up, install it, and then technically you're just there for you know service and equipment items that are already pre-existing and you're not putting anything up or installing anything. So yeah, I think if they could just take it out of the box and set the thing up, then you're you're pretty much in the clear with most service service policies that don't include building or remodeling.

SPEAKER_03 23:13

All right. So we got through this segment real quick, Pat. I think we're gonna have to throw a part two and possibly even a part three on here with our woof woof insurance interlude. So, guys, if you're looking for insurance, California Pool Association does not just cover California, it covers all throughout the country. Um, I met Pat in New Jersey, even though we both live in California, which was the craziest part about a decade ago. And he's been basically doing all my insurance before that, way before we became the insurance interlude, uh, which has only been about a year now. So if you guys are looking for insurance, please reach out to California Pool Association. We have a promotion where if you mention the Talking Pools podcast show, they'll actually give you $100 off of your annual liability insurance. So, guys, thank you so much for listening. And we will talk with you next week a little bit more about our doggy park. Thanks so much for listening.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

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SPEAKER_01 25:43

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SPEAKER_00 26:09

The sponsors of the 2026 Talking Pools Podcast Pool Industry Mentor Award are Blu-ray XL, Lamotte Company, Revved Up Apparel, and the Aqua Comfort Water Group. These manufacturers truly understand the importance of mentorship in the industry.

SPEAKER_07 26:25

Yep. And that's what happened when it first when Airbnb had the pool version of that. I forgot what the word what the letters were. It was the same thing. They said that now that you have established a business by renting out this residential pool, it is now a commercial pool, which therefore means it needs to be regulated by your local health department. And of course, the uproar that went along with that, you know, they're invading my private property. Well, you just put your private property up for up for public use. Hello? That's called a commercial pool. So it's the same concept, just call it a little bit different. But you you just open yourself to so many levels of potential liability, it's not even funny.

SPEAKER_03 27:12

So and your insurance. So I have a couple, I have a couple clients who do swimple, and they're nice enough to be honest with me that they're doing that. They actually, you know, asked me, they were like, hey, is there anything like we're thinking about doing this? Like, is there anything that we should think about? And I was like, obviously, you need to, you know, if you're gonna have people at your house every day, I'm like, you're gonna need to have a saltwater pool. I'm like, we need to change it over to a to a saltwater system. So we installed a saltwater system for them, and it's not the end all say all. Uh it's more of actually a pain in the ass for us because they have swim classes. So it's I I think it's actually a swim teacher that doesn't have a place to do lessons. So she's renting their pool and she's charging people to swim there. Like she's doing her lessons there.

SPEAKER_07 28:02

Which would be different if she brought the swim team over to her home to use the pool because she's not rent in that case, she's not exchanging money, she's not renting out the facility, she's not being paid to do that. Okay. That's that's the big difference here. Is is there a money exchange? You know, uh and when there when there is, again, it's just elevated straight up to now you have a commercial pool, sorry, you know, we gotta do this, this, this, and this, and and whatnot. So, you know, it it it's a good concept. Okay, I like the idea of it being a commercial pool. Yeah, well, hear me out. I like the idea of it. However, the actual practical application of it sucks because of people not realizing what other steps need to be done in order to make sure that you know, obviously the pool is safe for people to use, but you know, the whole liability issue, you know, what if what if a kid gets hurt? Who's liable?

SPEAKER_03 29:03

Yeah, uh sure ain't gonna be I mean if they were commercial pools, I would I would reach out to all of these people via the app. Like I would get somebody to scrape the app, and then I would be like, hey, like we're gonna buy this from you, and I would buy that. But that because now all of a sudden now you have a whole those are all now now. If it's a commercial pool, now you need depth markers on the deck. Now you need no diving signs. Now you need a shepherd's hook. Now you need a ringui.

SPEAKER_05 29:29

Right.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

You know, now you need a a bunt, now you need like a an uh, you know, a DPD test kit. Yeah, might even need a lifeguard. I wouldn't say I I wouldn't think that they would they would need to get a lifeguard by with because like just because there's so many hoas in so many states, like most of the people that come through my CPO class, I always ask about lifeguards. And the only places that really have lifeguards are like the city pools and like the YMCA pools. And then if you're if you're having like a like a swim team practice or something like that or a competition, like there'll always be at those types of pools, there will always be lifeguards. But at like your hoas and your your condo associations and like your your smaller units, where I have I have a guy who owns a building, but there's only three, there's there's three other people that rent there, and he's in the fourth unit. So commercial pool. And the the wildest thing is in California, if you have a commercial pool, your equipment pad needs to be totally enclosed. So now you need like a top over it, and like uh now you have to vent the heater if you have a heater. So like now it just opens up like a whole big, big can of worms. But my whole point is, you know, if if we if one of my clients rents out their pool on Swimpley, and I mean, I'm only there once a week, Wayne. What what what do I know unless I come, you know, at a certain time, and that that's what I was saying was a pain in the ass before. It's more of a pain in the ass for us if we have an emergency and I have to pull that guy off of that pool and say, go later. Like you have to come to our commercial pool because we need all hands-on this morning, come with us. And then he instead of getting started at seven, he's getting started at 9:30. So now we gotta be like, when do you have swim lessons today? And like I have we have their schedule somewhere, but like it changes every once in a while, or we'll be like, hey, they'll be like, hey, can you come, you know, with this emergency, but like you can't come today after three, and you can't come tomorrow, like before blah, blah, blah. Right. And you're kind of just like, oh. But I do feel like this could be legislation coming in other states. I feel like it wasn't really a thing for Airbnb because Airbnb is a a tech company, more or less, that just happens to rent properties. So they have a lot of financial backings on the back end from like angel type investors and people that like had already invested in like Facebook and Meta and like uh you know Instagram and all that stuff. So those people back these types of companies, and those people have people lobbying in Washington.

SPEAKER_06 32:01

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_03 32:02

And that that's that's the big difference. Like, if there's gonna be a bunch of legislation, Swimpley is either gonna have to say, okay, we're gonna have to change our business model, or they're gonna say, Hey, we're we're gonna have to hire a lobbyist to go and lobby that like uh why is an Airbnb pool not a commercial pool and a Swimple pool is right, right.

SPEAKER_07 32:24

I'm gonna jump backwards just a tad. You were talking about health officials earlier and you know, keeping records and things like that. The county in which I live here in Maryland, for those of you in the area, it's Harford County, which is about 25 to 30 miles northeast-ish of Baltimore, downtown Baltimore. Harford County has two people to go out in in the in the you know the summer months, pretty much now to September, to check on the pools, okay, the commercial pools, of which there are I think there's 12 of them all together. And this would be a variety of things like a private swim club, uh a pool that's attached to a golf club, you know, it so it's got a big variety. And this was years and years and years ago. They were talking probably decades ago. I had somebody call me at work that said, you know, what do you do when you don't believe your health instructor uh your health inspector? I said, Well, what do you mean? Well, she came in, she took the readings. I didn't believe her test kit. The test kit was obviously expired, like DBD came out pink.

SPEAKER_06 33:32

Super, super old.

SPEAKER_07 33:33

Right. Okay. Little things like that. And she said, What recourse do I have? Because it's the health official and you gotta go by what they say. And I said, Well, it's gonna vary from place to place, but generally there is an appeals process that if you question something that the health official marked you against, there is a process to appeal that that that whatever it happens to be. And I went, Okay, well, that that kind of makes sense. Well, turns out this this one of the two inspectors actually got fired because of this. Yeah. Uh and now again, talking now 20 plus years ago, but she got fired. And she got fired because she was first of all, she was using more old equipment. It was the the task kit she was using. She was telling people wrong information as far as what needed to be done. I mean, blatantly wrong information. Uh so she's supposed she had been around for a while too. So who knows how many people she screwed over in in as many years as she was doing it. But again, stepping back to what you said, normally these pool and health inspectors, it's not the only thing they do. Okay, they do other things. One is the health and food safety. The the one inspector that I knew really well, he also did like a small storefront restaurants like deli's would go in and make sure this was the right temperature, you know, everything was clean in the back, no rodent infestation.

SPEAKER_03 34:54

There's a lot more going on with a restaurant than a pool. The checklist, I've never seen the restaurant checklist, but I would have to assume that it's not just a front and backside of a sheet like the pool one is.

SPEAKER_07 35:07

No, no, no, no. But but the my my point is is that you know you you have a bit of a recourse available to you if you question a health official. Now, I know it probably isn't done very often because you don't want to piss them off, but if they're doing something wrong, you know, somebody's got to be told that they're doing something wrong or else they're gonna keep on doing it. And who'd who benefits from that? Nobody.

SPEAKER_03 35:30

No, it's I mean, of course, like I said, what I, you know, what he had said to my worker, I was just kind of like in disbelief. You know, I was like, I can't believe that a health officer would say that you would like I think that that's probably even illegal. Yeah that you would that you would, you know, that you're forging what whatever whatever it is. But there are, you know, Wayne, there's people in every job that are not good at their job.

SPEAKER_07 35:56

I agree.

SPEAKER_03 35:56

100%. Like I bet you there's guys at Raytheon where there's people on their staff and they're like, we we need to get rid of this guy. Why are you here, right? You know, but he's really smart and he does what one thing really well so that we can't get rid of him. But like everything else, he doesn't do well. But it's the same with health officers. And I don't know, I mean, I don't know if any health officers listen to this show, but if you guys do, we love you guys. You guys are great. But my whole point here is that just like it's kind of just a crapshoot who you, you know, who you get. So it is really good to, when they come, to definitely at least get their phone number, you know, and exchange information. And, you know, because if God forbid you guys have any questions or something happens where you need to contact the health department, like when I was in New Jersey, they would uh you have to pay like this thing called Garden State Labs or Lab Corps. And it's kind of crazy because like they're the only two companies that are certified to to do it. So it's kind of like a monopoly. And you know, you have to pay this company to come out at least once a week to do, you know, bacteria testing and total coliform testing. And, you know, if we failed the bacteria test, I would have to call the health department, like my guy from the health department, and and let him know what was going on. And like in some states, they're just kind of like whatever, you know, it's not that big of a deal. But like uh I've had it.

SPEAKER_07 37:11

They only test for it if there was an accident after the fact.

SPEAKER_03 37:14

Or if somebody calls. If some I've had it happen where, you know, the an angry resident at one of the hoas called, then she was like, it looks like there's like diarrhea down at the bottom of the, you know, of the pool. Like, you need to come out here and check it. And like the health department came out and was like, we can't, we don't know if that's poop or not, you know. I'm like, it was my client. So I came out and I was like, that is dirt. I'm like, look, I'm like, we're gonna vacuum it up. I'm like, that is dirt. Yeah. Oh my God. But you know, again, people, there's people that are really good at their jobs, and there's a lot of health officers out there that are super cool and easygoing where, you know, and if as long as you have a good relationship with them, a lot of times they're gonna be like, hey, you need to get this. Well, we know that Memorial Day is coming up, so like we're not gonna shut you down. We're gonna come back in three weeks, we're gonna let you open. But when we come back, you know, you need to have this done um, or we're gonna, we're gonna close you down.

SPEAKER_07 38:08

Yeah. Well, one of the things that that we like in this in the CPO program, especially when we're we're dealing with the instructor's class, is that we we love to see health inspectors, health departments come in because it gives them an extra, I don't even know what you call it, it's more education on what to look for, what to be more cognizant of. And we we we love having them. And one of the problems is that we don't have enough of them. The last few classes there's been maybe one or two out of 25, which is and I can understand to a point. I know we're you know, state funding is limited and all this other stuff, but where I mean, where you're at, we had a whole bunch of uh staff from the LA County office, and it was great. I mean, there was like five or six of them there. This is like, you know, this is a candy, you know, going into a candy shop and you got a dollar, you can buy a whole bunch of candy, kind of kind of deal. Yeah, it was uh it was it was pleasantly surprising. They all did well, they all did very well, and uh it was a good thing to see. And and I know that at the upcoming school that's gonna happen in St. Louis in in a few months, there's a small handful of health of health inspectors that will be attending that. I'm not quite sure where they are from, though. But it's still good. So, you know, like you said, there are some really good instruct uh health inspectors, there's some really bad ones, and then we have the ones in between.

SPEAKER_03 39:28

So what about what about when you used to work, Wayne? You remember when you used to work when you had a job? Oh, yeah, I remember that. So when you used to work full time, you know, obviously with what you guys do, it's so super serious. So you guys are probably have a pretty, pretty short leash with this type of stuff. But like, was there any like total incompetence that you encountered? Not maybe just with you in your company, but more so like with people you had to deal with and and different things like that. Because like I and just hold your thought for a second, because like with this health officer, you know, you saying like maybe call. I'm like, if I could find out who this guy was, like, I would totally do that, but I would totally expect him to be like, I I didn't mean that.

SPEAKER_07 40:10

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_03 40:11

I didn't say that.

SPEAKER_07 40:12

I I can honestly say that I don't think there was anybody who was totally incompetent. Borderline, yes, totally no. I remember and I'm not gonna name the this the city in Ohio, Cleveland, that I taught a uh to a group of health inspectors. They invited me to come on out and to talk about basic water chemistry and testing and a little bit about water balance. And it was like a two and a half hour class. So it was a a good experience to go out there and teach them that. But the questions I got, I mean, you're talking seriously stupid questions, right? Like what's not just what's the best kit to use, but what's pH? They don't know what pH is. They they understand the concept of sanitizer, but they don't know what else what's out there and what's available. So I just remember in this whole room full of health inspectors, there were really two or three really stupid people. That's the only way to like, how on earth did you get this job and why are you still here kind of deal. And I remember talking to the guy who was the head of the department afterwards, and he said, Yeah, we know about that. Well, they weren't new hires, they'd been there for a long, long time. I guess too long, you know.

SPEAKER_03 41:16

I think that's part of the problem sometimes in you know, in a lot of different industries, and you know, the the counties are no different, right? Because if you work for the county, you know, at some point you get a pension, at some point you get like vested, you know, so there's no that's cities and you know, they're as strict as you can be with their policies because they're so concerned with uh, you know, people coming back for wrongful termination, and most of the time they're gonna settle outside of court with that. So I remember, you know, in this in high school, we had a couple teachers where we were just like, these like this guy isn't a good teacher, and everybody knew that he wasn't a good teacher and he really didn't do the stuff that he was supposed to be doing in class. It was kind of just like a free period, you know, like he was just kind of like whatever. But like they couldn't get rid of him, you know, and you have all these young, hungry teachers that want to, you know, further kids' educations, and then you have these people that are just been there for 25 years or trying to get to there 25 years or whatever it is. So it's kind of the same thing, no matter no matter what you do, yeah?

SPEAKER_07 42:16

So with all that being said, those of you who are health officials that listen to our podcast, thank you. We we appreciate everything you do, and it's it and I guess the the the takeaway is that if there's ever a question and you're not sure uh of something that's not covered within your code, for example, it's always best to call somebody in the manufacturing end of things, whether it's you have a test kit or product or something like that. I mean, it's just a phone call, usually has an 800 number, so it's not gonna cost anybody anything. It's important to keep those lines of communication open so that you can do your job better and more efficiently.

SPEAKER_03 42:51

So and the manufacturers, Wayne, are gonna know just as just as good as the health officials. And I would say, to be honest, maybe even better because they have to deal with you know, fit you know, a bunch of different codes where the health official only has to usually deal with with that code.

SPEAKER_06 43:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:10

You know, and in a lot of the codes, it says that you don't have to test for alkalinity.

SPEAKER_07 43:15

Yeah. And most of them, they don't say that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:18

Right. So, you know, how are just a lot of it just doesn't make sense. But again, if so if a health officer tells me, like, hey, you know, we want to see that, I'll I'll say, okay, perfect. Can you just show me where it says that in in the code? Because I didn't see it there, and I wanted to, you know, make sure that uh we're doing the right thing with that.

SPEAKER_06 43:37

Right.

SPEAKER_07 43:37

Okay, gang. That's it for today. Thank you for sticking around and listening to us rant and rave a little bit. Uh, hope everybody has a really good week. Uh, a couple things on the back end. Our mentorship, it's not a contest, it's a it's a part of what talking pools is to find good mentors in the industry. Just recently ended uh for new people for people to apply. So I think Rudy said within what, a couple weeks or sometime in June, uh they're going to make the announcement on the Mentor of the Year award. Uh, and that'll be on Facebook, it'll be in our broadcast, it'll be all over the place. Look out for that. Again, and again, the pool season is starting up really big, big time. Memorial day weekend's coming up. We all know what that weekend's like for people. So just you know, be patient, be aware, uh, ask questions if you absolutely need to. And we're here at the Talking Pools Podcast to help you answer some of the qu those questions. So please feel free to email them into us at talkingpools at gmail.com and it will be routed to the appropriate person to answer. Uh if for some reason, some good reason, we decide to use your your email uh for a topic, for a question, for whatever, we'll send you a little thank you present, as always. Uh won't tell you what it is, but it's very wearable. So, uh Steven, thank you, sir, very much. Have fun out there on the West Coast.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

Yeah, enjoy the uh the warm weather. And we'll talk about it.

SPEAKER_07 44:59

Take care, guys. Bye bye.