Mondays Down Under – Finding Pool Leaks: The Art, Science, and Frustration of Leak Detection

In this episode of the Talking Pools Podcast, hosts Lee Salisbury, Shane Sneddon, and Nick discuss one of the most challenging and often frustrating aspects of pool service: leak detection. From simple dye tests and bucket tests to advanced acoustic listening devices, pressure testing, and underground leak locating equipment, the team shares real-world experiences, troubleshooting techniques, and lessons learned from years in the field. 

Topics Covered

Why Leak Detection Is a Specialized Skill

Leak detection often goes far beyond finding a wet spot in the yard. The hosts discuss how locating leaks requires patience, methodical troubleshooting, experience, and sometimes specialized equipment that represents a significant investment for a service company. 

Common Leak Sources Every Technician Should Check First

Before investing in advanced equipment, technicians can often identify many leaks through basic inspection and process-of-elimination techniques, including:

•  Multiport valve waste lines 
•  Hydrostatic relief valves 
•  Skimmer box cracks 
•  Skimmer faceplates and gaskets 
•  Return fittings 
•  Suction-side plumbing 
•  Equipment pad leaks 
•  Pump lid cracks and air leaks 

The hosts explain why many leaks can be found without expensive equipment when a systematic approach is used. 

Dye Testing: Every Technician's Best Friend

One of the most effective and affordable leak detection tools remains simple dye testing. The discussion covers:

•  How dye reveals water movement 
•  Why water table levels can affect results 
•  Choosing the right dye color for different pool finishes 
•  Common mistakes when performing dye tests 
•  Creative field solutions using syringes, plasticine, and simple tools 

The team also discusses fluorescent dyes and situations where standard dye colors become difficult to see. 

When the Water Table Changes Everything

Heavy rainfall and high groundwater can completely change leak detection results. Shane shares examples where visible holes in vinyl liners showed no water loss because surrounding groundwater pressure equalized the leak. Understanding groundwater conditions is critical when diagnosing suspected leaks. 

Vinyl Pool Leak Challenges

The hosts discuss:

•  Large vinyl liner tears 
•  Aging liner failures 
•  Temporary patching methods 
•  When repairs are no longer practical 
•  Recognizing when liner replacement is the only realistic solution 

Real-world examples illustrate why some repairs become recurring service calls if underlying liner deterioration is ignored. 

Fiberglass Pool Failures and Structural Issues

Several unusual fiberglass pool failures are discussed, including:

•  Pool walls collapsing due to improper backfill 
•  Hydrostatic valve failures 
•  Pools lifting out of the ground despite being full of water 
•  Drainage design failures around pool shells 

These stories highlight why understanding soil conditions and groundwater management is just as important as understanding plumbing. 

Advanced Leak Detection Equipment

Shane explains the equipment used by professional leak detection companies, including:

•  Acoustic microphones 
•  Pipe microphones 
•  Pressure testing systems 
•  Underground listening devices 
•  Sonar and sound-based locating systems 

The discussion includes how these systems work, their limitations, and why training is essential before offering leak detection as a professional service. 

Is Leak Detection Worth Adding to Your Business?

For service companies considering expanding into leak detection, the hosts discuss:

•  Equipment costs 
•  Training requirements 
•  Insurance considerations 
•  Break-even analysis 
•  Market demand 
•  Scheduling and labor requirements 

They emphasize the importance of understanding profitability before investing heavily in specialized services. 

Knowing When to Call a Specialist

Not every pool company needs to perform advanced leak detection. The hosts discuss the value of building relationships with trusted specialists and recognizing when a problem exceeds your equipment, experience, or risk tolerance. 

Real-World Leak Stories

The episode features several memorable leak investigations, including:

•  A pool that only leaked intermittently 
•  A cracked pump lid causing major system issues 
•  Underground plumbing surprises 
•  Faulty underground repairs 
•  Hidden plumbing modifications discovered during excavation 

These stories demonstrate why leak detection often feels more like detective work than pool service. 

Field Tips and Tricks

The hosts share practical technician tips, including:

•  Bucket testing procedures 
•  Using plasticine and Blu Tack for temporary line isolation 
•  Why proper expansion plugs matter 
•  Temporary repair products that actually work 
•  The dangers of underground rubber couplers 
•  Repair materials for emergency situations 

These small tricks can save technicians hours of frustration in the field. 

Key Takeaway

Successful leak detection is built on a systematic process of elimination. Start with the obvious, verify assumptions, test methodically, and know your limitations. Whether you're using a simple dye syringe or advanced acoustic equipment, the goal remains the same: gather evidence, eliminate possibilities, and follow the facts until the leak reveals itself. 

Connect With Talking Pools

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Good afternoon, good evening, good morning, good whatever time of the day it is that you are listening to Mondays Down Under on the Talking Pools Podcast. It's great to have you with us again this week. Of course, my name's Lee. I'm on the east coast of Australia, and I am joined by my esteemed colleagues in crime or in industry, let's say. Shane and Nick. Hey Shane, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:25

I'm good, thank you, Lee. It's quite interesting that you say crime, because uh a lot of the stories that the New Zealanders say about the Australians, it's quite fitting. Yes, obviously.

SPEAKER_03 0:39

We're a colony of yes, come across on the ships.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Criminal British. British criminal.

SPEAKER_03 0:46

Yes, criminal heritage, let's say. But speaking of criminals, hey Nick.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Deny, deny, deny. Wasn't you? No, it wasn't me. Wasn't me.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

That's funny, we were just talking before we came on about digging holes. They know where to find the bodies. Anyway, I digress.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

As I say, I'm not I'm not good for cold water, I'm not built for cold water, and I'm not built for digging holes either. So yeah, I'll leave that to somebody else.

SPEAKER_03 1:17

To be quite honest, I don't know. Maybe it's just me and I'm too honest to a fault, but I don't think I could live with the anxiety of having committed a crime and then having to live with it. I just couldn't. It's just not me.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

You would have to tell somebody, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:33

Yeah. Well, yes, I suppose I would. I get guilty even about not having a receipt for the tax man, like seriously. So actually I did have a bookkeeper that once told one of my employees that I was the most honest business owner she had ever met. So I think that's a good thing. Oh, we're a judge of honor.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Yes, yep, most definitely.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

But anyway, I'm gonna hand over the reigns today because today's topic is something that one of our team has more experience, especially than me. And I'm gonna hand it to Shane because we're talking about leaks and how to find them, how to well how to locate them and the processes that you can go by. So, Shane, you have some you have leak detecting equipment. It's one of the services that you offer.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

It is, yes. Yeah, so when we started the business, it was something that we wanted to offer our clients in previous employment. Um, I got a taste for it. Unfortunately, they wouldn't go the whole nine yards in doing the repair, they would just troubleshoot and say, yep, your skimmer's leaking or your line under the ground is leaking, but they were pretty much leafed client to sort the rest of it out. I didn't think that was a good way of doing it personally. So we decided that we would invest quite a bit of money into the leak detection equipment and we wanted to do the full nine yards, you know, if if we could. Uh to date there has only been one pool that we couldn't do the whole thing. So uh if you guys are familiar with spa electric lights, the EMRX, where it's got uh call it a niche or a niche. What do you call it, guys? Niche. Niche, niche, niche. I think the Americans call it a niche, so I could be wrong. But this, you know, the housing of the light is encased in the pool itself in the concrete, and it was actually cracked. So that was going to be a major job. The pool was only I think he said it was about three and a half years old. This was last year. Um, and I explained, you know, this isn't something that we can actually do without major, you know, concrete concrete cutting, exposing everything, and it's actually in the pool shell itself. So we recommended reaching back out to the installer on that one because that that was yeah, that was a big one. But um leaks can be fun, they can be frustrating all on the same day. And I know a lot of companies out there they they either do it, they do it very well, or they just you know they put their hands up and say, you know, if we want to we can do it, but we'll offer a subcontractor this job who knows how to do leak detection, how to find the leak and fix it. I think Steve was mentioning that on one of his shows a couple of weeks ago. He gave a little bit of an explanation on that. And yeah, for a lot of companies, I guess it's a good way of clipping a ticket, so to speak. You've also got somebody that you know that is going to do a very good job, but you can rely on, that has all the most up-to-date equipment and they're gonna do a good job. But yeah, for ourselves, we we did wanna continue with this and just basically provide the best service that we can possibly do, really.

SPEAKER_03 5:17

It is it's it is a specialized area, so it's great that you were prepared to take that on, and it is a great service to offer if you're looking at a way of expanding your service offerings. Can certainly give you something to do in winter, but uh maybe we don't want to go swimming in pools to do leak detection through winter, that's for sure. So a lot of us probably do the more simpler process of elimination, checking the obvious spots. So I'm sure our listeners out there, if you're a pool and spar service technician or a retailer with a service division, this is something you'll probably do as part of the services that you offer. The more basic leak detection. So checking hydrostatic valves, waistlines, you might be losing water down your waistline of your of your filter. Uh cracks in skimmer boxes were another one that we often used to see, especially as the skimmer boxes age and deteriorate. What are some of the other common leaks that our listeners should be looking for that are easy to detect without getting into the sonar equipment and everything that you've got, Shane?

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Definitely the use of dye. I think that's probably your best friend when it comes to leak detection. You know, it's something it's very cheap, you know, you can leave it in the van and take it to place A, B, and C easy enough. And it's quite surprising how much you can pick up with dye as well. If the water table is low, if the water table is high, the water table around the pool being more pressure around the swimming pool itself. If there was a leak last week when it was button dry, you know, the water table in the ground was local. You could test that particular area and it would be leaking, but if we've had heavy rain over the course of a week, you check the same area, and you can blatantly see a hole there, but there's no dye being pulled through. I can always remember one of my first dives. Uh it was a it was a vinyl pool, and she called the company that I worked for and said, we we know we've got a hole in the pool, we can see it. Can you come by and fix it? I think this was around autumn because I remember the water being freezing, it was horrible. But as I arrived, the water level in the pool was good. I could see the hole, it was on the back wall in the deep end. Once I dived down, there was a hole the size of my fist, but the pool wasn't losing any water because the water table in the ground was just so high, everything was equal, you know, the pressure was equalized. So yeah, that that can make things a little bit tricky to test for this time of year, you know, autumn for winter time after heavy rain. But yeah, definitely dying, that's yeah, that's a no-brainer. I've found many leaks in the past on the skimmer face. If you were to remove the face plates, if it comes off easy enough, you usually see the skimmer, the plastic body joined up to either a concrete pool shell or where it's been screwed into the back end on the vinyl lining. They they move, they wear, they perish, and you do get a lot of leak in that area. So that's that's definitely an easy one to check.

SPEAKER_03 8:47

Yeah. How do you fix a hole that's the size of the size of a fist in the wall of the pool, Shane? Please tell.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Well, we did put a big did put a big patch over it, so from memory, the vinyl was pretty old, and it was a case of, you know, we can put a patch on there. We can't guarantee you how long it's gonna last. You're gonna need to reach out to a company for a quote for a new vinyl. There was one, I think it was when we started our business actually in He Con No, I think it was, excuse me, it was just after the uh the Auckland floods, and there was a lot of devastation that happened around that time. And there was a guy that contacted me and said that he's got a hole in his vinyl. He's tried fixing it. So, okay, here we go. Um, do you mind coming around and just having a look at it? So I could see this, it it almost looked like black duct tape on the floor, but it was, I don't know, maybe a meter long, you know, three feet long. And as I dove dive down into the pool, I could see that lifting up this tape that he'd like duct tape, followed by another thicker layer of duct tape over the top, followed by another thicker layer of duct tape over the top. And as I was peeling it up, you could just see this this split, you know, it was just going all the way along um where the duct tape was. In a situation like that, it's too big to put a patch on. I mean, you could try putting multiple patches on, but the vinyl, I he had just moved into the house, unfortunately, and uh said you you again you're gonna need a new vinyl. I mean, vinyl lining pools, if you take care of them, you'll get a good 20 years out of them, maybe even 30 years out of them. But every shell is gonna have its day. And when you've got a hole the size of that in vinyl, for us, we just don't want that hassle. You try and fix it a week later, you have to come back, it's leaking again. So you've gotta, you know, you've got to break out unfortunate news to the client and just say you've you've need a new vinyl. Unfortunately, it is what it is.

SPEAKER_03 11:05

Yes. No, well, I was imagining in my head that it might have been a fiberglass pool because I have actually had a fiberglass pool have a hole in the side of it, which sounds really weird. But what it was was this pool was actually built sort of half in the ground, half out of the ground, sort of built on the side of a pool, side of a hill. And it had been filled up around on all sides, but the pressure on the upside of the hill was actually very great. And they hadn't backfilled it properly on that side, and there was a lot of movement on that wall side of the wall. So that actual side of the wall ended up collapsing in when they had some soil movement, so which was ended up being covered under insurance, they end up getting a whole new pool out of it.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Yeah, we had a recent we had a similar one recently with after one of the storms where the hydro valve failed and yeah, the pool basically split on the floor up the middle, fiberglass.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 12:05

I have had I have had a fiberglass pool actually pop out of the ground that was full of water. The hydrostatic valve valve failed, and the builder and the pool actually hadn't been in very long. I think it had been in about three or four years. And the builder who'd built it hadn't put acqu adequate drainage around the pool. It had been built into a retaining wall on on two sides and a high high slope on the other. And so the water actually couldn't get away. So the in a huge amount of torrential rain, yeah, the outside pressure was greater than the inside pressure, and the pool actually popped out of the ground. So it's the only time I've ever seen a pool full of water actually lift out of the ground.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Um isn't someone know I would want to try and fix.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

No, it was a new p new pool build for that one too.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, when it comes to lead detection, there are a lot of equipment that you know is is readily available. I can see in America, they there's there's two bigger, bigger companies that I can see, uh Leetronics and Anderson. They both do some very good equipment. It's not cheap, especially if you're you know converting it to your exchange rate. In New Zealand, it it is very expensive, but it it is worth it. I mean, you you would need to work out when you're going to break even on that, working out what your charges are going to be. We've had the equipment now for I think four years, four and a half years, has paid for itself. We've recently, I think it was, I'm just looking at it now. Last year in the beginning of last year, 2025, slightly digressing, but using our zero software and buffer zone. I never used to have an allocated service or a sales called leak detection. Now we do from last year. We've kind of tidied, I think it was Lee drilling it into me, tidying things up. But um, but now I can actually uh go back and check all of my records what kind of leaks we have we have done in the past, whether it's diving or whether it's anything to do with pressure testing and acoustic testing. So if if there are people out there which are interested in investing that money, um I would highly recommend just tidying up your accounting software or whichever you know scheduling software you use and making sure you put that exact service in there leak detection, depending on what it is. At least then you can monitor going forward how much you've charged the clients, how much you've made from it, and when your break-even should be to give you a bit of an indication.

SPEAKER_03 14:53

Very, very valid point because I actually do talk to people frequently, and we looked at leak detection ourselves, looked at adding that to our service offering. And I actually looked at leaktronics, so I am familiar with them. They had some great products, some great training that went with their products, which was really good. And we actually used to use the Anderson plugs, the expansion plugs. They are really good. They're the best quality ones you can get. Um if listeners out there are looking for good quality plugs for for plugging up lines, expansion plugs, the Anderson plugs are really good. Um I used to get mine through pool systems, so here in Australia. So if um people are interested in grabbing them, but there are different brands, so you need to specify that you want the Anderson ones. But the Leaktronics, yeah, they had a fantastic setup. We we definitely looked into it. But I think at the time it was a $10,000 plus investment for the level that we were looking at. And that was with the underground sonar detection, so you could actually find exactly where the the leaks were that and the cameras and all of that. And then we sort of went, okay, well, we're in a small country area with a limited client base. How much work are we going to get from it? Are we prepared to travel with it? Is it going to impact the the rest of the services that we deliver? So we really did our maths. And in the end, we decided that we what it wasn't probably in our best interest to do it. And we had a league detection service that would visit our area every couple of months so that we could rack up a few jobs with him and and he would come down and do them. So it worked out quite well. And he was very reliable, good quality work. So I we thought best leave it to the experts.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Yeah, we definitely do that as well. We don't do any leaks. But the the best thing that our leak detector told me, as someone that doesn't do leaks and doesn't want to heavily invest in it, um, was plasticine. So yeah. So Plastocine? Plasticine, plasticine, yeah. Blue tack. Blue tack. Yes. But it it as someone that doesn't do it and doesn't want to pull out all the bungs and everything like that, just having that to help uh diagnose whether it be a return line, you can just bung it up nice and easy. You can put your screwdriver through it, just create a nice little hole. So it's a nice and easy to see the die getting pulled through. Especially if it's a big crack or something like that. You can sort of, you know, put it into the crack a little bit more and yeah, just help diagnose a little bit better. And I use it all the time for our basic tests.

SPEAKER_03 17:41

Yeah. That's a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Yeah, you just get it from from from whatever cheap shop or kid shop or arts and craft, and um, yeah, it comes in handy.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

You you sort of learn a few tricks like that along the way, don't you? Because I know when Scots needed to do leak detection or let's say, let's not call it leak detection, let's call it leak elimination, because that's really what it is at times when you don't have the specialized equipment. And he actually, you know, with the suction line at the bottom of the skimmer box, how it can be on a really bad angle at times and you can struggle to get a plug in there. Uh and so he actually used to use like a a tennis ball or a rubber ball, but wrap it in cloth so that it was easy to pull out. So he'd jam it in to seal the pipe and stop the flow. And so turn everything off, of course, and then let it drop. So yeah, sort of try and eliminate lines. That was one of the things he he tr he used to do. So little little tips and tricks, but the plasticine one is uh is a great idea.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Works really well.

SPEAKER_03 18:48

But the dye dye detection, because we always used syringes with the with the dye in it, and of course you can buy the proper dye. But I have heard of technicians using like the fennel red squeeze bottles and completely get the theory, but the problem is when it's under the water and you squeeze, when you release, what happens?

SPEAKER_00 19:14

It's gonna get diluted. It draws back in sucks in air.

SPEAKER_03 19:18

Yeah, it draws in a draw yeah, it draws back in in the water in water and therefore dilutes your colours. So uh yeah, probably best to stick to a syringe where you've only got stuff going out. You can buy the blue dye um from suppliers that you can refill your your own syringe with. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Yeah, there's there is a lot out there, yeah. There's uh there's all sorts of like fluorescent yellow dye, which is it's quite hard to get hold of. I had to order that from Anderson from memory because I couldn't find it in New Zealand, I couldn't find it in Australia either. But it all depends on what colour the swimming pool is. Like for yourself, you've got a very dark swimming pool, the shell is like almost black, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 20:08

I think you were saying it's a dumb grey. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Yeah. So if you're using a black dye on a black-colored pool or a darker coloured pool, it's very difficult to see if that dye is actually being being pulled through. So uh yeah, if you can get both of the two dyes, a darker one and the lighter one, because you never know what color the pool is that you're gonna go to.

SPEAKER_03 20:32

No, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

Well, I hadn't heard of fluorescent dye. I didn't know that that actually did.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Yeah, it's bloody hard to get a hold of over here, I'll tell you that.

SPEAKER_03 20:41

So do you have do you have cameras and the sonar and the whole lot, Shane?

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Uh yeah, we've we've got microphones. So uh they pick up any sound in the swimming pool if that point is leaking. Depending on what kind of leak it is, it would almost sound like if you can imagine like a volcano going off, depending on how bad the leak is, if it's pulling through or if it's losing water quite rapidly, the louder the sound is. Uh but one thing I've noticed it's very difficult when you're surrounded by a lot of electrical interference around the pool itself. Um, I've actually picked up quite a few radio channels. Believe it or not, just going around the pool. It's only happened a couple of times, so I don't yeah. I mean, depending on which way the microphone's going and what sound is an electrical interference is is happening under the ground, it can make things a little bit more challenging. Picking it picking up people's baby monitors and people in the houses if they're talking, sometimes you can pick it up. It's like, I guess they're talking for me. So yeah, they they are uh they are very powerful. And there's a few different Different styles that you can have depending on which way you want to uh pick up the sound, whether it's going straight down vertically, horizontally, uh pipe mics, if you can put a put uh put a smaller microphone down the return line, for instance. It's quite limited with the amount of bends that it can go through. On this particular uh kit that we have, it's it's got something called a plate deck, and it's a flat, I would say it's stainless steel with the cable joined to it. So if you were to put that down on concrete, solid concrete, you could it would penetrate through the concrete up to a certain point, and then you would be able to hear if there was a leak in that particular area.

SPEAKER_03 22:43

Oh, so that's how you can tell where the leak is on the line, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

You're trying to pick up certain sounds, and it's it certainly comes with experience because the last thing you want to do is say, I'm pretty sure there's a leak here, you know, without really backing it up, and then the next thing you know you've concrete cut it, dug down a meter, and it's like ring spell.

SPEAKER_03 23:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

So uh yeah, there's yeah, there is a lot of training out there. Um, I highly recommend for anybody to look into the training, and it's the same with anything, you know, just educate yourself as much as possible before you're actually going to take on a big job because it could potentially become very costly for you.

SPEAKER_03 23:36

Yes. Yeah. I think it's important that we understand our limitations. Like we've talked about this before when it comes to residential versus commercial and things like that. And also not playing with electricals that you're not licensed to play with. And leak detection's no different. Yes, we can, as all service technicians, should be able to do a bucket test to rule out evaporation versus a leak.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

You should be able to And that's someone as Steve spoke about a couple of weeks ago how to perform a bucket test as well. Yeah. Very simple.

SPEAKER_03 24:09

And doing like checking the waistline, checking the hydrostatic valve, checking the faceplate of the skimmer box, checking inside the skimmer box to make sure there's no leaks, doing the the simple things and then going, okay, I've checked the basics. Unfortunately, this is now beyond me. We need to bring in a specialist leak detector and actually then hand that job over to somebody else. And like I I know in Nick's business they have a policy that actually quite surprised me, and that is they don't dig.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

Yes, no digging.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

Very wise. Yes, no digging. It's it's just the time. We don't know exactly what we're gonna find. You know, we're not experts in it. And even if we can't, even if we do find it there, you know, do we have the parts needed to fix it there on site? So we just we just simply give it away to someone that has all the parts that can do it that we know is gonna do a good job. And you know, if it's got one leak, the pool, it might have another one. We could spend all this time fixing this one leak and there could be another leak there. And, you know, the customer's not going to be happy if we can't thoroughly check everything.

SPEAKER_03 25:22

So And I think that's the thing with a good leak detection company is that they will actually check everything. They might find one or two leaks, but they'll keep looking until they've actually checked everything and then they can say, okay, this is what we're actually dealing with. The last thing you want is a leak detection company that comes in, finds a leak, and then goes, Oh yeah, here it is, and they don't continue checking because you, like you say, Nick, we you address that issue, and then there could be another one or another one, like there could be several so you wanna you want to make sure. But I think it's it's important to understand with business, regardless of what you're delving into. I've had people come to me and say, uh, I'm interested in actually becoming a fence safety inspector, which I completely understand. But you need to be aware of what insurances are involved, what licenses are involved, what training is involved, what call because there's actually a qualification that you need to complete, going through those processes and actually then working out is this the best and most profitable use of my time, or is my time better spent doing what I do and doing it really well and leaving those things to the specialist? So as Shane said, knowing exactly what your break-even point is is really, really important. And how long is it going to take you to actually recoup the cost, your investment, not only financial, but time-wise to actually what to to do something, like to do something like this, we have to give up something else. We have to move something else along, or we need to offload it to somebody else. What is that costing us to get rid of something to make space for something else? And is that something else actually going to reap all reward? Sometimes it might, and sometimes it mightn't. I know we actually went down the path of doing the fence inspector course. Scott actually got did the qualification, but never went through getting his license because when we actually worked it out what the insurance and the license was actually going to cost us, we couldn't justify the expense of those things for the money that it would bring us in in our area. So we just went, no, we'll leave it, we'll leave it to somebody else to do.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

Yeah. That makes perfect sense, Lee. And just going back. Sorry. You're right. You're right. And just going back to that as well, I mean, nine times out of ten with leak detection, you're you're very rarely on site for an hour or two. It will take multiple visits depending on how many issues are actually there, depending on if there is concrete cut-in, excavation needed. So you've got to factor a lot of this in. This time of year, we're still pretty busy, luckily, touch wood. But we've in the last month we've probably had like five leaking queries come through, and it's like that's the cold weather. It's almost like the summer's all over again.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

You guys know everything retracts when it gets cold.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Slinks, Lee, yes, we know.

SPEAKER_03 28:44

And hydrostatic valves are like you we could almost set our clock by it or our watch by it. Is that the moment the weather turned cold, the moment the water actually got really chilly, that is when the hydrostatic valves start leaking. And Scott hated getting in pools in winter, I'll tell you what. He actually did he did end up investing in a dry wetsuit. Is that what they call it? Where you can actually dry suit, you can put it on over your your clothes. And he also actually invested in prescription goggles. So you can actually get like a diving mask that's made with prescription lens. So there you go, Nick, there's no excuse. You're a glasses wearer.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Well even the the dry suits don't cover your fingers, do they?

SPEAKER_03 29:35

No. No.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

No, so it's still still the fingers that would be.

SPEAKER_03 29:54

The things you do. Actually, no, what was it? Hold him down with a broom. That's right. They they put the broom on his back and held him down so that he wouldn't float.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

One thing I do now is carry the weight belt in the van four times and do have a spare mask in the van because yeah, there has I don't I never take my dive gear with me unless I know that I'm needing to dive. But yeah, there has been a you know a few odd occasions. It's like I could really jump in now and and fix this, but I haven't got my dive gear, so yeah, just making sure I've got that white belt and a mask. Hold my breath.

SPEAKER_03 30:35

So what is the trickiest leak that you two have had? I'll give it give it throw it to the both of you. So, Shane, you probably had more leaks, tricky leaks than you've had to fix. So, Nick, you're on notice, you'll have to think of one. But so, Shane, what's a tricky leak that you've had to deal with?

SPEAKER_00 30:53

I would say that it was just coming to mind it was pressure testing a certain system. The bottom dri the where the hydro is, it had a bottom suction point, it was a combo, and it I don't know what model it was, but it was the smallest housing you've ever seen in your life, and yet trying to get a plug inside and tighten it up. I was literally like going around in circles, just trying to get this plug in. I thought I got it in, go up, but I'd I was on my home on my own that day as well. Going up to pressure test it, and then the bum would blow out, so having to go back down again. So that one was that was probably more frustrating than anything else. When we started the business, we didn't have what Sammy would come out with me as and when she could, but a lot of leaking pools, they are a two-person job, you know, especially if somebody is diving. So ideally, you do want somebody, you know, a buddy up on the waterside while you are diving, but yeah, it just just bear that in mind again if people are wanting to take the service on board, depending on the complexity of the pool. You know, you could be there for a very long time, and sometimes it is more than one person needed. But yeah, that that was quite fiddly, that one. And uh I know it's not too exciting, but I do remember spinning over multiple times just trying to get this plug-in.

SPEAKER_03 32:35

Yes, the annoying ones, they're always sent to test us. What about you, Nick?

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Yeah, we've had a couple. We had one pool that it was actually at a nursery, so and the pool's a vinyl liner, and it leaked, and it just always leaked. And we'd get it fixed and it would leak again, and they get it fixed and it would leak again. So they had absolutely zero concerns with water, so they just left the hose on. And it would just stay on the dribble constantly every month, and yeah, they just did not care about water at all with being on the nursery. So yeah, that was a an interesting one. We eventually got it fixed, converted it to salt, and it's leaking again. So yes, we'll it's a very, very old pool though. So yeah, this one's just always gonna struggle with leaks, I think.

SPEAKER_03 33:22

Is that the one you mentioned before we started that had eating?

SPEAKER_01 33:27

No, that's a no, that's uh that's my f the other really interesting one is my father-in-law's mother-in-law's house. It's a uh a large vinyl liner with in-floor system on it, uh, which obviously isn't typical. Um, but this pool, it's got me scratching my head. It's had multiple leaks which we fixed, but it will go two months, three months absolutely fine, and he'll come out the next day and half the water will be gone. And so where is this water going? Like, why is it fine for so long? Leak detection guy thought it maybe to do with something blocking up the hole in the liner. Then obviously it it it passes or gets sucked through and stops again, but yeah, I I I just don't know with this pool. It's got me scratching my head.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

And like we say, um sorry, can't we?

SPEAKER_03 34:16

I was just gonna say sometimes like we say it's just a process of elimination, but yeah, with vinyl liners or with very fine pinholes, something can plug it temporarily and then you don't have a a leak. I think Shane, we were talking before we started recording, and one of the classic ones is people not reseeding their multi-port valves correctly, and uh it trickles down the line and and so it leaks for a while and they're adamant they got a leak, and then the moment they do a backwash and rinse, the gasket reseats itself and then leak stops. And the owner doesn't know doesn't doesn't put two and two together, and so it's it it's hard to work these things out sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

And in a situation like that as well, Lean. So if you are going to a job which has suspected leak, that is the first point of call that we would check for. The MPV is the easiest to do as long as there's water in the pool. But we check it when it's in filter mode, and we also check it when it's in recirculate mode. We've had many, many times where it hasn't leaked infiltration, but as soon as you put it into recirculation, it is just flowing out. In a situation like that, we would just say to the client, just you need a new MPV, they can't afford it. Then we put a two-way valve on the waistline, so at least it eliminates that side. Yep. So I was gonna ask, Nick, I mean, this this particular pool, do they have a bottom suction point?

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Yeah, they've got a bottom suction point with two sort of floor jets or it inlets. I think they're called floor inlets, aren't they? The um the pop-ups. Yeah. So um they have been both blocked up um by a previous leak detector, and it's being vinyl line. It's actually got a pipe from behind the liner, um, but there's no water coming out of that pipe. But I think the shell's cracked, so I think it just runs away. That's my guess anyway.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

Okay. I mean, it may be worth just popping a two-way valve on that waistline, just in case the NPV is leaking intermittently.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

We we had a client, it was I think it was maybe about three or four weeks ago, actually, and they had a fiberglass pool, it was a compass pool, and it was with the in-floor cleaning system. And man, that there is a lot of plumbing and it is extremely complex. He suspected that it was leaking, or there was an issue on the skimmer line because the pump just there's two pumps, one pump for the filtration, another pump for the in-floor cleaning system. Um, and that would pump water into something called a brain, which would have all the clogues and it would basically lift up the floor jets in in rotation. But the pump just would not prime up. So pressure testing everything, dye testing everything, acoustic testing everything. And uh we ended up well, ended up just really looking at the equipment. And the uh the lid, the lid of the pump had a very, very small crack on the top. And that was the reason why it just wasn't pulling in any any air. It wasn't leaking, likely for him. But yeah, it's you've gotta you've gotta really think outside the box sometimes. And uh yeah, as I said, some some jobs can be extremely frustrating, especially if you can't find anything and the client is adamant that the pool is leaking.

SPEAKER_03 37:46

And that's the hard thing. Sometimes these leaks only happen under pressure. So like obviously the pump lid, it's like in that case, was sucking air, uh obviously not losing water, but creating an issue for the system. But you don't notice it because it's usually on a seam, and it only obviously happens when the pump's running. And those sort of things really make us detectives, really. We've got a troubleshoot, we've got a pinpoint, we've got a process of elimination, really sometimes thinking outside outside the box, outside the square, really going through everything with a fine-tooth comb to rule things out, rule things in. As they say with a suction cleaner, start at the head and and work your way backwards is is usually the the thing. And it's the same with with your equipment and with leaks. So I hope we've given our listeners today something to to think about when it comes to a leak, process of elimination and and moving through the the process. Obviously, always the best place to start is the my the multi-port head would be the first place I think all three of us would agree to start with. And then doing a bucket test, uh, filling filling a bucket up with water, marking it, mark the water level in the pool and give it 24 hours, and if they both drop, then you know it's evaporation. If the pool drops and the bucket doesn't, you know it's a leak. And also sometimes though, you need to do these things under under load. So if you turn a system off for 24 hours and see if it drops, and then maybe do a do the system running um for 24 hours and see if it drops, because uh actually having that suction line under under load or the pressure line under load can actually open up uh a crack that isn't there when that system is actually not flowing. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Another tip as well, Lee, is if you are going to repair any plumbing on the ground, do not use a rubber coupler. Please. Do not use a rubber coupler. Yeah, a rubber coupler's got their place, but again, there was a leak I went to uh last week. Pressure tested that the guy said that it's definitely leaking, it's dropping like a good inch a day, so it's it's definitely leaking. Uh I pressure tested the skimmer and yeah, it was it was fail failing straight away. So Capin Point is actually where the air was escaping. We dug down and literally at the bottom of the the plumbing at the bottom of the skimmer was a rubber coupler joined on to the suching line. Unfortunately, that wasn't where the leak, where the water was going. This return line is actually leaking even worse. But yeah, that's the reason why I couldn't build pressure. And again, you know, it's I was I was 100% sure, you know, this is where the leak is because the pressure wasn't building, but you don't know what's under the ground at the end of the day. If somebody's installed it with a rubber coupler and yeah, you know, your stainless steel hose clamps have corroded and brittle or come loose, yeah, it's gonna show that the pool is leaking there or there's this there is an issue.

SPEAKER_03 41:13

I think we could probably do a whole show on things that we've found under the ground. I know we've we we came across a a pool builder who used to plumb non-return valves in underneath the ground. Nothing more annoying. And the other one that we come across was someone who actually used to plumb the un do some of the underground plumbing in like black polypipe. Yeah. And then and the amount of problems then that you have with the the joining of that to PVC and and all of that. But the other thing that obviously that is very popular with fixing leaks, and is a good temporary fix. We can't badmouth it too much, is good old Emicate putty. Every every pool tech's best friend.

SPEAKER_02 41:56

Yes. But make sure we use it properly.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Yeah, it's it's a get-to-da get out of jail free card for you know for a certain amount of time. Yeah. But yeah, don't use it as a permanent fix by any means. One that we've found personally I'll find a lot better is Selly's marine grade sea lunch designed for boats at water. Uh this stuff is a lot easier to play with and it is it doesn't it doesn't set as hard as Emicit's epoxy, but you've got a lot more flexibility with this and it joins and it adheres to a lot more. Your plastic, if if the skim is leaking, for instance, you could pop a little bit of this in there and it it's guaranteed it'll last a lot longer than epoxy.

SPEAKER_03 42:48

It's still a two-part putty, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 42:51

No.

SPEAKER_03 42:52

No, always it's the silicon.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

It's in a caulking gun, yeah, and it it literally looks like a silicon, you know, it's a silicon tube, but it's it is tough. Really, really tough. So yeah, get on jail free card again.

SPEAKER_03 43:08

Well, there's a couple of tips for everyone to um implement if they aren't already. So well, thank you guys again for another riveting week. We thank our listeners for bearing with us. We hope that you will join us again next week on Mondays down under on the Talking Pools podcast. Remember, if you have any topic suggestions or any questions, drop us a line at talkingpools at gmail.com and Rudy will serve those questions out to the most applicable host. Until next week. Thank you, Shane. Thank you, Nick. Thank you. And thank you, we will see or you'll hear us next week again on Mondays down under on the Talking Pools podcast. Thanks for joining us. Have a great week.