Natural Pools, Cheap Customers, and Main Character Syndrome

In this Thursday edition of Talking Pools, hosts Steve Sherwood and Wayne Ivusich dive into the realities of running a successful pool service company. From referral programs and pricing challenges to difficult customer interactions and the importance of building relationships with manufacturer representatives, this episode offers practical business advice for pool professionals. The conversation also includes an insurance-focused discussion on the growing topic of natural swimming pools and the unique risks they present. 

Topics Covered

Why Referrals Are Still the Best Marketing Tool

Steve explains why customer referrals continue to be one of the most effective ways to grow a pool service business. Rather than chasing online reviews or discount programs, he discusses building trust with existing clients and rewarding long-term customer relationships. 

The Reality of Pool Service Pricing

Not all pool companies charge the same rates. Steve shares a real-world example of a prospective client comparing prices and why competing solely on price often creates problems. The discussion highlights the importance of communicating value, professionalism, reliability, and service quality. 

Managing Difficult Customer Expectations

From emergency requests to customers demanding specific service times, the hosts discuss how setting boundaries and maintaining clear expectations protects both the customer and the service company. They explain why not every client is the right fit for every business. 

Commercial vs Residential Pool Customers

Why are commercial clients often easier to work with than residential customers? Steve shares his perspective on dealing with engineering departments, facility managers, and property owners versus individual homeowners with highly specific expectations. 

Insurance Interlude with Pat Granon

Can Natural Swimming Pools Be Insured?

Pat Granon from the California Pool Association joins the show to discuss insurance considerations surrounding natural swimming pools. The conversation explores whether natural pools are classified as pools for insurance purposes and what coverage options may be necessary for companies servicing them. 

Additional Risks of Natural Pools

The discussion examines concerns involving:

•  Communicable disease exposure 
•  Pollution liability 
•  Professional liability risks 
•  Biological filtration systems 
•  Potential legal exposure from waterborne illnesses 

Pat explains why standard general liability coverage may not always be enough and discusses additional policy options that service companies should consider when working with natural swimming pools. 

Is a Natural Pool Really a Pool?

The hosts debate where natural pools fit within the industry and whether maintaining biology instead of traditional water chemistry creates a fundamentally different risk profile for operators and service providers. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_08 0:00

Happy Thursday, everybody, and welcome to Talking Pools. Thursday edition with Steve and Wayne. Hope everybody's had a good week. I was just telling Steve before we started broadcasting over here in the Mid-Alantic area. It's absolutely beautiful outside. Not a cloud in the sky. Hot. At least it's around 85. Supposed to go up to n actually supposed to go up to 90 later on.

SPEAKER_05 0:19

I had to ask if you were messing with me though, because that the weather's been so wild and crazy by you guys.

SPEAKER_08 0:25

It's been interesting. But um, yeah, so Steve actually has a a few things that he wants to get off his chest today. So I'm gonna kind of sit back and and watch him do his thing. And then it and then what I'd like to do, Steve, is that if we have some time at the end, or maybe we might wait to to the next broadcast, I want to talk about the dog thing that we talked about on Messenger. And I'll I'll that's a teaser for all of our listeners. You'll you'll get it later. But go ahead, Steve. It's all yours. What's going on?

SPEAKER_05 0:52

So as a company that you know services a bunch of residential pools, right? You're you're gonna get a bunch of different types of people. And I always say commercial pools for us are easier because like you're dealing with one billing person, you're dealing with one director of engineering, and honestly, if the pool goes down, like they understand that that shit happens. Right, you know, in a residential pool, people are like, We need you here yesterday because we're having a party, or like we got the guy who runs his heater, you know, every night from 4 a.m. to 8 a.m. His heater kicks on and makes the pool nicey nice for him, and he swims his laps in the morning. But what does the pool look like every time I come? There's algae, and then we gotta send a guy back for another visit, and then we gotta treat it again. And like every month he's just paying extra money to you know run his heater all the time. And I told him, I'm like, we can solve this problem very easily by like just getting you a salt cell. Right. So some of the clients are easy to work with, some of them aren't so easy to work with. But the the best way that I've figured out how to get business is through referrals with the clients that you already have. And I worked for a company when I first moved out here and they were a little pushy. They would be like, Oh, you know, if you get a five-star review on Yelp, like, you know, we'll give you a $50 gift card or, you know, whatever it was, which I didn't really feel comfortable like asking people that. Even in CPO, I'm like, if you want to give us a good review, I'm like, the best thing you could do is go and tell someone about, you know, you know, go tell your boss how great you were and how great of a you know instructor we were, or or whatever it was, because then they're gonna keep sending people back. Right. So it's always best to run some sort of a referral program and you know let your let your current clients know about that. And the easiest thing to do is to not give away like uh like discounts on stuff. It's easier to just give away your time, right? Because like your time, you're not actually paying for that with your guys. You might be if you're paying guys to go or whatever. But like at some points, and with some clients, we'll run like if they give us, you know, a client now they gotta stay on for six to eight months. Like you can't just be giving out referral bonuses to people and giving them free months of service or free this or free that or whatever. And now that new client, it doesn't work out. Like I've had clients come on, and then all of a sudden in a couple months, you're like, mm, like this, this we don't really wanna, you know, we don't want to deal with this shit, you know. So it's always best to be telling them about like what you, you know, hey, you're if your neighbors come on, you know, we'll we'll hook you up with with something, right? Another way is going door to door, you know, around the pools that you already have and just you know, leaving a door hanger or introducing yourself and saying, hey, like we can get them here, visual visual inspection or whatever. And most of the time, most people are gonna be like, you know what, I'm good. Thanks so much. But you're gonna get those couple people where they're like, you know, our pool guy kind of sucks. Like, you know, we're not one to like move, but you're here, you know. Why don't you come in the backyard and come check it out? But regardless, back to the referrals. I I got a referral from one of my awesome clients who we really enjoy. You know, sometimes she has problems with her pools, but she's super cool. And she was like, Hey, my neighbor's gonna give you a call. Is that okay? I was like, perfect. So the neighbor hits me up and she was like, Hey, uh, do you want to come out and give me a quote? And as always, I said, I can quote you over the phone right now. Give me your address. So she gives me her address. I measure her pool on Google Earth, and I shoot my shot. I give her her the price. And she was like, Wow, she's like, that's way more expensive than my my guy was charging. He's charging X amount per month, and it is a ridiculously low number. And I was like, I understand that we are not the cheapest company out there, but the the service that you're gonna you're gonna get is gonna be unmatched, and the communication is gonna be, you know, awesome. So there shouldn't be any issues there. She was like, I also have a part for my heater that you know, the old pool guy said that this piece needs to be changed. And it's like the bevel system. It's like literally like the piece that goes on where you touch the buttons and it shows you the temperature, like the display. So super easy to pull in and out and do, but again, never being at this pool, Wayne, you know that you could go there, fucking install this thing, and then now the high limit switch isn't working because it's showing you a code. Whatever. It's never just one thing, right?

SPEAKER_08 5:10

I'm like the domino effect, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:12

Right. So I told her, look, if you come on board, well, I said if you just want me to come out and change the heater part, I can get the part that you think it is. You know, here's the price for it. My service manager can come and troubleshoot the heater because he's got to troubleshoot the heater first and change this part, and then you will make sure that everything is working properly and you're in for this much. But if you're coming on board as a client, like a weekly service client, the service call price is a different price. Like it's less for my weekly clients. You know, I'm not gonna charge them for like a heater service call. Like if we're already there, I'm just gonna, you know, do a regular service call, which is less money. So she's like, no, we're gonna, we're gonna come on board, yada yada. And then I was like, Oh, I I forgot to tell you about the the filter cleanings, you know, and this is all via text. I was like, the filter cleanings are X amount per filter cleaning. So at that point, I was like, don't forget to send me your email address so I can put you in the billing system. Silence. Two days go by, three good, and this is last week, right? Three days go by, four days go by, five days go by. She had agreed that we were coming tomorrow. So today's Thursday, tomorrow's Friday. We're gonna start this pool up on Friday. So I text her today and I'm like, hey, uh, got that heater part for you. I'm gonna, we're on for servicing the pool tomorrow, and then I will, you know, change the part and troubleshoot the heater for you. She was like, No, she's like, My husband said that you guys are too expensive. We pay our guy X amount per month and X amount per filter cleaning. And I wrote back and I was like, I okay, I was like, that's totally understandable. I was like, but I'm just want you to the I'm giving you the honest truth here. I was like, I pay my guys more than your guy was charging you. So I was like, I don't know how he makes money, you know, because it's like really tight margins that he's that this guy has. So she's like, I still want you to come and do the heater though. And I'm like, okay, but I just wanna be super clear with you that like we're coming out and it's gonna be a heater service call for like a one-off thing, you know, at this price. So she started like hemming and hawing about that, you know, and then she was like, Well, that's fine. She was like, uh, you know, we're having people over on Saturday afternoon, so like it's gotta be Saturday morning. And I'm like, You're not like gonna tell me like what to do, you know what I mean? Like, you're not gonna pigeonhole me in the corner and then be like, oh, like you need to come at this time. Those are the ones that I usually am like, we're we are not gonna be there at 11 a.m., you know? And I've had that happen in the past where someone was like, you need to meet me here at this time. And I was like, there's no way I can get there at that time. Like, we do commercial pools in the morning, like there's no way that we are gonna be able to make it there. Um, so I texted her back and I was like, hey, I was like, that I was like, Saturday morning doesn't work for us. But I was like, we're gonna be out doing commercial pools, and once we're done with the commercial pools, we'll be there between 12 and 2 p.m. You know, I'll I'll loop you into a text and whatever. But like this is a client where like now, and my other client, she actually texted me and was like, Oh, did so and so reach out to you? And I was like, Yeah, she did, but I was like, I'm kind of in a pickle now. And she was like, Oh no, what happened? And I just explained to her, I was like, It's all good, like it's fine. But like uh, she basically tried to get me to to come out and do the heater part for this price that we had agreed upon, but now the terms have totally changed. Right, you know, so again, if I go out and I do that, then she's gonna expect, and we didn't have this convert, this pretense conversation of, hey, this is gonna cost a bit more money now for us to come out. I would have gotten myself into a situation, and I also told her, hey, you need to pay like right then and there. You know, like normally if you're a client, I'll just bill you at the end of the month, like for whatever. Um, with this, like we're walking away with the check. Like we're walking away with with cash, we're walking away with something, you know, like you're gonna pay for it today. Like, we're not gonna bill you and like see about this and stuff. So it was just a unique situation that happens because again, most all referrals are coming in knowing exactly what the deal is, but like I quickly understood. And the price that this lady was getting is the same price that this other lady has. So all she had to do was ask her friend, hey, how much are you paying for your pool service? And she would be like, Like, uh, you know, I'm paying X amount per month, and this other lady got the same price. So it wasn't like it was like I came out and like I'm trying to like gouge her or something like that. It's just there's dudes out there that are doing pools for you know 130, 140, 150 a month. And like if you're again, if you're doing it by the month, like you're losing out on four weeks of the year, and a lot of guys are like, Oh, will I take a couple weeks' vacation? You know how hard it is when you're busy to actually remember to take vacation, Wayne. Yeah, like it's one thing when you you work in a corporate environment and you accrue your days and you're like, shit, I'm not coming in for the whole month, you know, and you can do that because you've accumulated this this time off or whatever it is with when you're in a business where you are all of the hats. I had a really hard time, you know, at the beginning. I used people wanted to do monthly, and I would do monthly. And I after the first year, I I changed it over because I was like, I only took one week of vacation last year, and that means that you got three free weeks of s of service. Yeah, you know. So is there anything in your space when you were I uh do you remember when you used to work? So let's uh yeah, I remember let's go back in time here and uh you know, was there any cool referral programs or thing? And not just with with the company that you worked for, but was there any other like I used to really like Fluidro when it was Jandy? I still use a lot of their stuff, but like uh they would have like awesome stuff, you know, like where you'd go and meet your rep and like the rep would like give you stuff, you know what I mean? Where like now the leash is very tight on even when I try and warranty product and stuff, like they want to see, usually they want to send out their people, you know, even if it's like an issue where I'm like, hey, I've already identified the issue, like once in a blue moon, they'll be like, okay, cool, that's been an issue for us, so I'm going to send you one. But if it hasn't been an issue for them, and it's something that they're like, like it's not like they think that I'm taking advantage of it, but I think that just when you're a you know, when you're a corporation that's publicly traded, you have a board and all they they don't see the relationship building, they see this number. Hey everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the Insurance Interlude with your host, as always, Steve Sherwood. And as always, we got Pat Granon, vice president over at California Pool Association. So, Pat, thanks so much for uh for coming on with us, man. We always appreciate having you here.

SPEAKER_04 11:45

Yeah, thanks for having me, Steve. Always a pleasure.

SPEAKER_05 11:48

So we left off with some, you know, some doggy stuff the last time, right? We we did like uh, I don't know, two or three interludes on that. So it really got me thinking about like the different types of pools that are out there. Um, because like uh there's like natural pools and there's like uh all different sorts of stuff, and like the natural pools with Rudy has actually touched base on that a few different times in his episodes. And I wanted to just step it back because there's so many questions that you that are just coming up, right? With if you have a natural pool. Like, number one, do you write people that have natural pools? Like, or you just tell them to fuck off. You know what I mean? That's the first question. Because, like, if it were me and I was the insurer, I don't want anything to do with natural pools. I mean, I just and look, like I know that there's science behind it that people are like, oh, we love it, you know, it's cool. But like, I'm not putting my, you know, I'm not putting kids in there. I'm not, you know, nobody's testing it. There's no way to like what I know about pools is like a pool is a sanitized body of water that we're using chlorine or bromine or some sort of sanitizer and oxidizer. And you know, what that shit does is it kills most of the bacteria and some of the viruses and adenoviruses and stuff, adenoviruses. So, you know, is this a pool? Are you gonna write a company that takes care of natural pools? Is that even a thing? Like, I'm sure it's a niche, right? So, like, I know guys do leak detection and guys do building and they do repairs and whatever, but like it, you know, I I wouldn't take on a natural pool. Like, I take on fountains and stuff, but I wouldn't even know where to start with natural pools. So, like, is there guys out there that even take care of natural pools? And then, you know, I think that opens it up to a bunch of different questions that I'll have once you uh kind of give it a go. So is a natural pool a pool?

SPEAKER_04 13:30

Yeah, yeah. So, so yes, you can insure that. I mean, shoot, there's there's uh if you gotta go to Lloyd's of London for some of them, but uh yes, you can insure anything out there. And honestly, you know, like it depends on the language of the policy. So, you know, service servicing a pool, natural or otherwise, obviously there's a million different uh differences to the two functionally, but it really just depends on how your insurance policy or company classifies a pool. Like, you know, there's a definition in the policy, like what is a pool? And uh, you know, unless there's something that indicates that, you know, natural pools are excluded, then you would have coverage under a normal service policy, not all of them, and certainly check with your with your insurance agent, you know, and then look at your policy. But, you know, I think the the first question is really like, you know, without it, does your insurance company consider it a pool? And like without the classification made clear, like no other coverage questions matter, right? Uh so start with that, you know, potentially even if it's uh defined in the policy, you can add a rider or you can add another type of operation in there for you know, pond or whatever maintenance or whatever insurance category that it would fall under based on the insurance carrier verbiage that they have already established. So start with that is what I would say.

SPEAKER_05 14:46

Sure. Now it is this like uh I come to you and I say, Hey, uh I want to pick up a natural pool. Is it like a big deal difference? Kind of like the you know, the additional insurance that like you have to cover when you start getting into these bigger hotels and stuff where like it's $15,000, $20,000, $25,000 difference, like where it's a big deal, or is it just like, okay, this is just like a regular add-on rider, it's not that big of a deal?

SPEAKER_04 15:13

Yeah, generally speaking, when it comes to classifications, like so like our service policy, it's a custom kind of built policy for service maintenance. You know, again, we we go out and we get great uh policies for builders and and remodelers and whatnot, but the the rates on the service policy are custom built, non-auditable. It's it's a it's a pretty slick program. So, you know, I would just start by by making sure that the underwriter understood, hey, you know, we've got this, it's not the primary operation. Can we just add, if we need to, can we just add another classification of work onto here? And there wouldn't be any increase in premium. If we had to go get you another policy, you'd see an increase based on the standard service rates. But honestly, like, you know, the definition of pool, it'll probably start to come up as more claims hit the space as this becomes a more common because it's never a problem until it's a problem, right?

SPEAKER_05 16:04

And now all of a sudden, uh, we we used to be able to do that five years ago, but now that doesn't slide because X, Y, and Z happened.

SPEAKER_04 16:11

Yeah. But but generally speaking, like our definition like doesn't specify a pool is X, Y, and Z, right? That's why like fountain maintenance is covered, you know, because technically a fountain, although there's water chemistry, is the same or similar.

SPEAKER_05 16:24

So what about like, you know, equipment coverage? And I know when you say equipment coverage, uh, you know, that you mean like the tools in the in your truck, if they got stolen or you know, damaged or whatever, right? I'm talking about like actual equipment pad. Like, does that change anything? Because like you're not using like a regular cartridge filter or a regular DE filter, like you're using these filters called biofilm filters, right? So they're they're a little bit different. And I'm no expert in the difference between like I'm a fucking sand filter guy till the day that I die. Okay. I actually just did a class the other day and like they all had cartridge filters, and they were like, Steve, they were like, Why do we have cartridge filters, you know? And I was like, Well, because your pool guy likes to keep charging you money to keep cleaning your cartridges. And then they found out they were like, Well, it seems like it's cheaper. And then I explained to them, like, you actually have to have, if you have four cartridges, you need to have another set just sitting there. And the one guy has six pools on property, so he actually needs to buy a dozen set of cartridges all at once. And once we started to actually price it out compared to the sand filter, sand filter was cheaper hands down, right? Over the over the course of five years or whatever it was. But again, like I'm super well versed in that, but I don't really know the difference in the equipment. Like, are the you know, are they using UV and ozone? Does it matter? You know, like does the equipment not matter or does it matter? And then, like, what happens if like uh a bio, like, okay, let's back up. If a in a regular pool, if a filter fails, you wouldn't be able to go into the pool because you'd be like, Oh, we can't see the bottom, it's cloudy, we're closing it, there's no chlorine, you know, like someone will get sick. But if a biofilm filter stops working or the pump stops working or whatever, like you might not be able to see that because the pool always looks like a pond, right? So what is there any difference in you know application of that, I guess?

SPEAKER_04 18:13

Yeah, so really like the the potential for something to happen is really the difference there, like you mentioned. Um you know, it's interesting. I was reading something, you know, like when it comes to natural pools, you're maintaining biology, not water chemistry. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_05 18:28

And so by nature, you know, the potential hazards are you're messing, you're yeah, you're not like they're gonna you're living in harmony with all of these, you know, these things that could could produce bacteria and different things like that, you know. So that's why it's just so scary for me, right? So I just for you, it seems like it's just another day at the job. But you know, what are the differences, I guess, you know, in the concerns for you as the insurer for somebody, you know, like for me, it's super straightforward. You're like, bro, I've got uh I've got hundreds of thousands of people that do what you do, like uh, you know, it's almost like modern medicine. Like this happens, you do this, this happens, you do this, right? What are there some other different steps where if I was telling you, oh, I I'm a company that takes care of a bunch of natural pools, where you're gonna sit me down and be like, look, like these are the things that you need to watch out for, or these are the things that are different than taking care of a regular pool.

SPEAKER_04 19:28

Yes. Yeah, and really it's all based on likelihood, right? I mean, you know, there's there's a higher much higher likelihood for communicable disease for something to fall under that if someone gets sick. Almost every GL policy carries a communicable disease exclusion, you know, which again is is less likely to happen, you know, in a standard normal, you know, filtered pool environment where you've got chemistry in the whole ball of whack. So because of that, there's also like pollution coverage, right? So let's just say an algae bloom happens and and something, you know, someone gets sick or that harms something from there, you know. So really you'd want to look at doing an additional policy that that really focuses on covering kit for communicable disease, covers for pollution. And not only that, but you know, a professional or ENO policy. So really I would recommend two additional on top of a standard GL, you know. So like think about for professional liability, right? So, you know, a common service mistake. So, you know, you treat the water, you don't treat the water, and again, I'm not super familiar with with the steps or you know how you document water chemistry that is.

SPEAKER_05 20:36

They were not treating the water, they're not treating the water, I don't think.

SPEAKER_04 20:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:41

I mean, there's like some other stuff that you could put in there that like uh there's like fountain stuff that like helps with algae, like fountain tech or you know what whatever it is. There's some there's other stuff that you could use. It's just again, I'm not super familiar with all of that because if somebody called me and told me they had a natural pool, I would probably give them a scolding and not sure, right? Be like, dude, we are not interested in taking care of your natural pool. Good the best of luck to you.

SPEAKER_04 21:06

Yeah, yeah. Well, look, let's just say, like, because of water chemistry or biology, you know, the regeneration zone ends up crashing or or you know becomes becomes ineffective, and that's a $40,000 repair, right? That's like there's exclusions for you know your mistake, your work, you you know didn't do it right, and because of that, then you had you know damages that happen. That's professional liability more so than what a standard general liability policy would cover. So I would really recommend, in addition to your standard general liability policy, you get a pollution and you get an EL policy. I think you got your bases covered. And frankly, for everybody, even with standard pools, those are good ideas. But the likelihood in you know, a standard normal pool with you know chemistry that's just a lot less it's a lot less likely than a natural pool at that point.

SPEAKER_05 21:56

So, what I'm hearing here is that if you're taking on some natural pool, pools your your risk aversion is is pretty is pretty pretty pretty high.

SPEAKER_04 22:04

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. And look yeah, at the end of the day, we'll put it in front of you and you pick and choose what you feel good with, but it's it's no, of course.

SPEAKER_05 22:13

It's just like there's, you know, what happens in like uh what happens if somebody gets sick or what happens if somebody dies, right? And then like some of like we're talking about all this like uh you know all these products that it it produces that the that the pool's gonna produce like s you know cyan uh cyanobacci cyanobacteria like some of some of those like they pr produce some sort of toxins and stuff like that. So there's just so many different things that could happen with the water you know that that are just so unpredictable. So I guess you can't even really think about all the stuff that like could would or could happen, right?

SPEAKER_04 22:47

Yeah I mean I'm sure everyone's been in a lake, river, whatever, you know whether they're wake boarding or otherwise and you know you end up you getting a little water in your mouth when you fall or when you dive in or whatever the case might be. And yeah, I you know certainly have had that happen to me in the past where you feel like feel like hell for a couple days after that. So maybe it's you know it's it's high it's it's high much more likely than than hopping out of a treated swimming pool and right.

SPEAKER_05 23:12

No, of course but like uh if I go to you know the local lake that's like not part of the county and it's like a you know you can't sue Nevada for you know for going into their their freshwater lake. Yep yep but you could sue Sherwood pool consulting group if we were taking care of a you know of a natural swimming pool and you happen to get sick.

SPEAKER_04 23:34

Sure could yeah and that that all just falls under the communicable disease you know portion of a a normal policy. So yeah there's ways to address everything. I think what's what's most important you know is that everyone just understands there's a there's a higher likelihood of things happening although these are good policies to have in general additional policies it just you know it's all about likelihood of something happening and you know your comfortability with that risk. So there's there's ways to address it pollution policy you know an Eno policy and and you're off and running I I would feel real comfortable if my whole route consisted of natural pools with those three. Okay. So what do you write a bunch of companies that that take care of natural pools? You know we we don't we don't have a ton in the bloodstream with that I mean we we have we have policy policies in place for for a handful that I can think of.

SPEAKER_05 24:24

So with that with that handful, right? Obviously that's like a such a small sample size of your you know all of the pool insurance business that you do right has there has there been anything that's that's happened and I you don't have to name names of companies or anything like that but has there been anything that like oh this shit happened because it was a natural pool and that would have never happened if it was a if it was a normal pool.

SPEAKER_04 24:46

Yeah but but also too like these are like a pool or two in a route of hundreds of pools and you know like it's it just isn't we don't I don't have anybody insured that's like that's all that they do. You know so if you do one or two again you should really talk to your insurance agent and make sure that you've got coverage for those one or two and and and we did for the ones that that have those in their roots they've got these additional couple policies.

SPEAKER_05 25:10

It's not like you're you know having to you know empty the bank account to buy these things they're not like they're not they're not nothing but they're not like out of control expensive but you know gener generally speaking they've got them in place and it's like just like everything else right you gotta just say like hey you know is this worth it for me to take it on and kind of kind of go kind of go from there you know so listeners out there obviously uh I'd love to hear from you on this you know so if you do take care of natural pools and you've had something crazy or something something weird happen we'd love to hear about it and talk about talk about it on the show. And I mean look I I think that there's you know enough traction on this that we could probably do a part two of this so we we might touch some more you know base on this but Pat I think that it was a great segment today and you know I would have thought that it was almost impossible to get insurance for a natural pool. But you're saying it's actually just something that just adds on to your policy and a lot of the things that are already in your normal policy actually cover for that because the communicable disease and the pollution and all that you know all that shit could happen in a pool too it's just the likelihood of it happening in the pool is just way less than it would be in the natural in the natural pool setting. So all right awesome thanks for the great information and guys thank you for listening and as always if you're interested in talking about insurance California Pool Association they got you covered I mean if you give you know if you get a you know one year general liability policy and you mention the talking pools podcast they'll actually give you $100 off. So check them out and uh Pat thanks so much for coming on and uh we'll be talking at you guys next week. Thanks so much Steve appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

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SPEAKER_01 28:05

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SPEAKER_08 29:38

However if we had a customer one of if we had a distributor's customer call us for whatever reason usually it was that they claim something's not working or or whatnot or it was a warranty issue that was a little bit different. We would handle that separately uh I had the discretion of sending them something free or a replacement or or something that depending upon what it was. Our our owner back in the day was very heavy handed in not in a good way as far as giving people stuff for free. And there's a difference between giving people stuff for free versus fixing a problem or replacing a defective part or something like that. Now with with chemicals it's a little bit different. You can't simply return them. It doesn't quite work like that and unless it was our mistake as the manufacturer which did not happen often but believe it or not it does happen. It did happen four times that I can remember in the 32 years I was there we actually did a recall on some reagents and we were able to get a hold hold of everybody that that bought the product and replaced them appropriately. But if it's something that we resell for example we resold Myer and L meters the TDS and the TDS salt meter and something else I can't remember what what it was now you know who does the warranty? Well technically it's it you know we're we're the we're the resellers everybody thought it was us but no it's actually in this case Myer and L.

SPEAKER_05 31:00

So but while we were able to you're just slapping a your company's sticker onto it right exactly right exactly right.

SPEAKER_08 31:07

So MyRan L was actually very good as far as replacing parts that were defective or doing their homework on a particular meter that a customer claimed didn't work. So they had a really good warranty process and I don't I don't think we ever had any real big problems with them. But yeah it it it and in the kind of environment that that you work in Steve it's more of it's more of a common occurrence than it is for somebody that that came from my background. No of course but it's still there are very slight variations on a theme so it's still there but as far as you know uh referrals and paying people and things like that no we we we never did that.

SPEAKER_05 31:49

No of course I I think I think more of the point for the you know for the average listener out there is that you know building those relationships not just with your with your clients but also building the relationships with the the manufacturers and the manufacturers representatives I think is the the big deal you know and you know we talk obviously about going to the the trade shows and introducing your like anytime I have an issue and I want to call a company and I don't know who the rep is I just reach out to my local my local distributor and I'm like yo who's the rep in this area and he'll send me a business card. And like there's a lot of movement. So like guys move jobs and they change companies and they go to the competitor and whatever and like look everybody's chasing a bigger paycheck and that's respect. You know that's fine. I'm cool with them moving around um especially once you get into like the the technical side of things uh it's really it's something that like uh these companies if you're a really good smart technical guy like they'll eat you up like they will take you on and make you into you know a super super super busy person. But these guys are super busy. So if you don't actually step out in front of them and say hey you know like I'm a pool company in your area and I use a bunch of your stuff you know and one of the things is like my Hayward rep here is the the man. He's he's you know the guy that was before him like I you know I used to call him for warranty stuff and whatever and he was he was fine but like this new guy his name Sergio he he goes above and beyond you know with with anything that I need anytime that I've called him he sent out service companies for me uh like in an area where I didn't really service and I was like hey I did this installation but like I need some help with it and he was like I'll just send somebody there and like he sends somebody out to like fix it for us basically and it was like a programming problem but it it you know basically he had it fixed right away one time my buddy had a problem in Turks and Caicos and he you know there's Hayward is kind of king in the islands a little bit so he had a full Hayward system and like we didn't know what was wrong and like we got him to help us troubleshoot it and like he didn't have to do that. Like his fucking territory isn't isn't Turks and Caicos. He was like can I go though? He's like can we go out on site? But that's what I mean like I have a really good relationship with this guy and like uh I don't have any fear of calling him and saying hey your product this one sucks or I called him the other day and I was like I literally said I was like hey I just turned on the lights and one of the lights it's not working I'm like it's flickering and it's bubbling I'm like have you ever seen that happen before and he was like the flickering yeah he's like the bubbling no he was like see if you can uh you know get it to to duplicate or and we're changing the lights anyway so it doesn't matter but like that's the type of relationship that you should have with your your person that if something go is weird or whatever, giving them a call. And like the same thing with with Pentair like because with with a lot of our commercial pools we use the the pentair Intellicamps. And here's the thing I really really understand how to make the boxes like manipulate the boxes when the pH is too high or too low and you go into the box and you say hey this is not what you are doing this is what you're doing and then boom it does it. With the ORP same thing you know there's three things that could happen you come in and you're like oh this is great and you make everything the way that it is or hey we need more or hey we need less and that's those are the three things that can happen. They with these commercial boxes that they came out with I still have like an unresolved issue. And that they're great like they've come out and looked at the box but like we installed it over a year ago right and like there the director of engineering that was at this hotel client that we had he was brand new and he kept like we almost got fired. I was afraid we were gonna get we were gonna get canned because like he was like why don't you understand how this box works and I'm like it's not that I don't understand how the box works it's also connected to a salt cell so what's supposed to happen is the salt cell is which is an IC60 is supposed to kick on and bring the ORP up and if something's wrong where the salt cell isn't working or it needs to boost it has a secondary backup which is the chlorine container you know 50 gallon chlorine container that's filled up with you know liquid chlorine and it has a parasaltic pump where it can turn on. And I I just like couldn't figure out like what was going on with it. And we're still we still don't really know what's going on but now that I've had Pentair come out and they kind of don't really know what's going on and then they told me like hey maybe you need to have like commercial cells on here for like the commercial thing and I like was like well you guys spec the job out and you guys told me that these were the ones to get you know how much the you know how much the commercial ones cost retail that was $10,400 for one. So I was like I I don't know if we're gonna switch over to those guys like I think we might just leave it the way that it is but that was an instance where like I don't think that they you know they made this new product and I was kind of like I don't know if we're hooked up properly you know and Carlos my service manager he does a great job with the wiring but he was like I don't know he's like I've never really seen like this the way that this is supposed to be you know with the relays and stuff he was like I hooked it up so everything is hot so it works the the way that it's supposed to but he's like I don't know if that's the way that it's supposed to be hooked up and they weren't you know I was like is this right you know because we had boots on the ground and stuff and look again I applaud them for you know giving it a a try there's other companies out there that that aren't as as honest and they would be like oh no like there's no problems there's no issues like I respect when they come and they say hey there there's an issue or you know there's a problem that we're having and now I understand why we're changing parts all the time or whatever it may be but there's a lot of that going on with the manufacturing process.

SPEAKER_08 37:39

And again Lee Lee Lee and them down under her show really resonated with me with them talking about the salt cells and why they're so expensive now and you know but there's companies out there that are making them with alternatives that are cheaper but they're not it's not the same type of product but they're saying they're saying it is that type of right right what you were talking I I want to take a few steps back and because as you were talking I was kind of thinking about the whole manufacturer's rep thing and a a lot of people thought that that's what I was and I guess technically yeah but the problem is is that we were such a small company independent company my main focus was to become the Taylor guy. People knew me as the Taylor guy. I mean that's how you knew me when we first met way back in the day. And I would be the person people would come to whether it was a a a distributor a retailer you know a service guy whatever I was the person that would come that they would contact to to explain something or recommend something or whatnot. So it and and one of the ways that I did that because you really can't come out and advertise yourself in certain situations like when I would teach classes and I taught a lot of classes you know this lots of classes over the years on lots of trade shows. I could not promote my product we weren't allowed to because that was part of the rules but wearing the shirt with my company logo on it and everybody knowing that I was the Taylor guy that in and of itself was was advertising right then and there. So yeah the people would come to me like I said before for answers and and whatnot. But you know I'm not quite sure how it works now since Taylor was bought out by Floridra. Honestly I don't care but I'm sure it's a little bit different than what it was when when I was when I was doing it. But you know the the importance of having a good manufacturer's rep can't can't be emphasized enough. I mean you gave a perfect example of Sergio. There there are I'm sure a you know a couple hundred out there that are equally or if not a better manufacturer's rep for certain specific pot product. And if you find somebody that's good and understands your situation and can help you solve a problem without a whole bunch of rig of a roll and and and whatnot they're they're they're you know they're they're precious. You keep them you be nice to them you buy them a beer at a trade show you know that that kind of thing you keep them in your your circle of friends business friends as best as you can so you know I I I guess what I'm trying to say here is and Steve also is that it if you deal with the manufacturer's right appreciate the fact that what they're doing it's not an easy job but if you know that they're doing the best they possibly can and they're doing it pretty effectively that person's a keeper regardless of of what particular product they will also they'll also start referring work to to you if you yes if if you actually are in in their wheelhouse of what they're doing.

SPEAKER_05 40:42

Yeah you know and I've never had they've they've they've asked time and time again to to have us come on board and be a warranty station for them which is awesome but like I just don't feel like the price point for the amount of work that you're getting that you're getting paid enough money to go and do those jobs. But for certain people and certain situations it's it's money. You know what I mean? It's it's really it's really good. And you know the work never stops. And it's just we're kind of at our the end of our rope as we are anyway. But I did want to say uh we actually are losing one of our bigger clients or one of our commercial clients and there's nothing that we could have done about it. We a few years ago I want to say four years ago or so we trained their whole engineering staff so it was like 30 guys or something. And uh we trained them in CPO and then we in LA County you have to have what's called the LA County technician's license. So basically they were all of those guys that took the CPO within two years like there's two of them there still you know so we had to do like another follow-up CPO course just because the turnover was was so big during uh you know the pandemic like after the pandemic happened they like it's just everybody kept turning over so they we did the class and they were like we really want you guys to take care of the pool you know because like we know that obviously we we can't handle what's going on so we we would love your help with the goal of later on you know hopefully being able to to do it ourselves. So I actually when we teach most mostly how we get our you know commercial clients is we teach them through CPO. We come to them we do a really good job and then at the end of class they're like so you guys are leaving yeah and we're like what what do you mean like you guys are CPO certified you're good and they're like well like we think that maybe you should come once or twice a week and help us out you know make sure that everything is good. I mean there's a couple hotels where like none of their guys want to take the test or the LA County so like we'll come once a week and we'll you know look at the pool. But this is one of those situations where like everything good doesn't last forever. You know like I had fully known that at some point they were hoping that they could you know push us out the door which which was fine which is fine with me. And that's why like in your contracts guys you need to put a 30 day clause in there. And basically this protects you that if you find out that these people are crazy and you don't want to take care of their pool anymore or like you know they lied and they're not fixing anything and they're not you know they're not letting you do your job and basically you need to get yourself out you have a clause in your contract that says hey 30 days we're we're canceling this you know and it can be execute and we open it up that the client can execute that as well too because we don't want to be somewhere where someone doesn't want us. Right, exactly. You know so they gave us you know their 30 day notice and that was totally fine. And then we're going to not do what that other guy did to us where they gave him a two week notice and then we came back and the pool looked like shit. There was it it was almost sucking air because the water was so low. Like guy wasn't doing his job. We over the next 30 days are going to do a kick ass job and we are going to send a very nice email that says thank you so much for bringing us on. We had such a great time working with you all in the future if you need anything From us, please let us know. You know, and also, you know, you need to change your drains, those are coming up. You know, like that's something we're gonna tell them for VGB purposes. And then also we're gonna remind them that they need somebody there at the pool that's LA County's certified. And I'm interested to see if somebody got that, because if not, then then guess what we can offer them? Hey, we can come by once a week and still, you know, it's not a pool service. We're just basically coming by and doing a safety check for you and making sure that everything is is a-okay so you know, sometimes bowing out gracefully is is the way to go. And again, when one door closes, many more open up, you know, and that happens. We don't lose many clients, and when we do, like uh, I would say more of them come from us being like, hey, we can't deal with this anymore. Like, thank you very much. Like, we're gonna we're gonna part ways mutually here, you know. So this is like the not the best thing that could have happened, but like it wasn't like they were like, Hey, your guy's always late or he doesn't do a good job, or you know, it wasn't negative, it wasn't negative at all. It's just they, you know, if they have a guy on staff that they could take time and just say, yo, we're not gonna give you any more money, but now you're the pool guy, and you know, for an hour every morning, you're gonna do what the pool company used to do. You know, they're paying us a decent amount of money. Right. So they're gonna be saving uh a good chunk of change to do it them themselves, but a lot more times than not, again, those companies, those that guy that does the pool there, he might leave. Yeah. So now what? You know, like now they're in a situation where you know, of course, they they could go get more bids and stuff like that. But again, like, do you think my price is gonna be the same price if I have to come back to that? Like, you know that the price is gonna go up a little up a little bit. So you know, there's always the there's always the good, bad, and the ugly with it, and you just want to make sure that it never gets to to ugly. And you know, that that goes even to the lady that I didn't pick up as a client. Like, uh, I was the we were texting, we've we've only spoken on the phone once, we've texted back and forth. And you know, in the text message, I'm just I'm not like a dick by any means, you know. I'm just I'm just like, hey, I just want to be on the same page here that like this is what we had agreed to. So please let me know either way, you know. And even if give them the option, like if she said, Hey, I don't want you to do the heater, I would have been like, okay, cool, I'll return the part. Like, we didn't take it out of the box with us, it's no skin off our back with that. But at the same time, like, don't let your clients dictate, you know, what's going on with you. And we actually had to change a bunch of days because my one guy is leaving, he's graduating college and he's becoming he's becoming a law enforcement officer. So it's great for him, and I'm very proud of him for what he's done and you know the work that he's done for us. But we we now are taking on a bunch more of his pools, right? So we had to like shuffle stuff around, and we actually had to move like a full day like over, you know. So we had to take a bunch of people that were like on Friday and move them to Monday. And I was like, oh man, I'm like, this is one of the hardest ones. Like if you move people from Tuesday to Monday or Monday to Wednesday or whatever, like it's not that big of a deal. But like you telling people that are always used to being on Friday, you know, that they're now gonna be on a Monday after the weekend, that's tough. Yeah. So what we did is we, you know, again, you gotta know your call, they don't use the pool. You know what I mean? Like that they they have a pool, but they're not using it, you know. But the people that are using their pool, the people, the people that have kids, you know, they're in the pool multiple times a week. So they're not very interested. So we kept those people on on Friday. Yeah. And then we moved the people, you know, that were on Friday, some of them to Monday, but I did it strategically. So it was the people where it's like, you know, you're not you I I know that you're really not using the pool anyway, but if you ever have a party or there's something wrong with the pool or you're having a weekend party or something like that, please call us and let us know. And then I will set up for someone to come on Thursday or Friday to get you all make sure you're all set for the weekend.

SPEAKER_08 48:09

And I and I think I I would really we're kind of wrapping up things here. I think we'd love to hear from you all out there uh about your experiences with uh not only how your referrals work, uh what's the good, what's the bad, what's the ugly, how you deal with your manufacturer's reps, you know. You don't have to name names or anything like that, but you know, how's your experience been with them? Good, bad, whatever. Uh, we'd love to hear hear from you all about that. Uh, you can send any comments uh along those lines or or any other topics you'd like us to talk about, you can send them to talkingpools at gmail.com. That's talkingpoolsor at gmail.com. And uh they'll be routed to us. And if we happen to use your your um info on on air, uh we'll be happy to send you a little thank you gift. Uh and Steven, thank you. And have a great week. We'll be talking together at y'all on Thursday. Take care.

SPEAKER_06 49:01

Thanks.