Change Management: What Do You Do When It Goes Wrong?

What do stalled initiatives, employee resistance, and missed business outcomes all have in common? They’re often signs that change management has gone wrong. In this episode of Bring Out the Talent, we’re joined by Carrie Quick, a senior human capital, operations, and business development leader with over 23 years of multi-industry experience. Throughout her career, Carrie has guided organizations through complex transformations, helping leaders align people, process, and strategy when the stakes are high and the path forward isn’t always clear.

This conversation is all about what happens when change doesn’t go as planned. From recognizing the early warning signs to turning setbacks into opportunities for growth, Carrie offers real-world insights that leaders can apply when facing their toughest change challenges. Tune in for a candid, practical discussion that will reshape how you think about failure, resilience, and leading people through uncertainty.

Transcript

SPEAKER_06: 0:01

Bring up the talent. Bring out the talent.

SPEAKER_03: 0:03

Bring up the talent. Welcome to Bring Up the Talent, a podcast featuring learning and development experts, discussing innovative approaches and industry insights. Tune in to hear our talent. Help develop yours. Now here are your hosts, TTA CEO and President Maria Melfa, and talent manager Jocelyn Allen.

SPEAKER_00: 0:24

Hello, Jocelyn. Good afternoon. Good afternoon, Maria. I love your polka dots. I will always be a polka dot fan. I'll polka dots myself.

SPEAKER_06: 0:34

Versus wearing them. Can you believe it? Imagine. Because if I didn't, I probably would not be wearing a polka dot shirt.

SPEAKER_00: 0:43

What a concept. Learning and development, guys. We're here for training. Learning every day.

SPEAKER_06: 0:48

Absolutely. I mean, that is a very profound thought to start this podcast with. Better than what we were thinking. I know. And even more so. We just were talking to a competitor right now, who we're going to have on the podcast because they are on a different college football team. So they're a different fan. So luckily. But luckily, she is a very incredible woman. So we're free. Exactly. Managing managing conflict, exactly. So we can still have her. Okay. So, Jocelyn, what do stalled initiatives, employee resistance, and miss business outcomes all have in common? I bet you're gonna tell me. Yes, I think I might. There are often signs that change management has really gone wrong. In this episode of Bring Up the Talent, we are joined by Kerry Quick, a senior human capital operations and business development leader with over 23 years of multi-industry experience. Throughout her career, Carrie has guided organizations through complex transformations, helping leaders align people, process, and strategy when the stakes are high and the path forward isn't always clear, which oftentimes it is not. This conversation is all about what happens when change doesn't go as planned, from recognizing the early warning signs to turning setbacks into opportunities for growth. Carrie offers real-world insight that leaders can apply when facing their toughest change challenges. She will also talk to you about what it's like to tailgate at some of the Texas longhorn games. As long as she doesn't talk about their win against Michigan. Get ready for a candid practical discussion that will reshape how you think about failure, resilience, and leading people through uncertainty. Welcome, Carrie.

SPEAKER_01: 3:00

Well, thank you so much for having me. And I feel like being a Texas fan has fully prepared me to talk about resilience today. So that is the name of the game of my season thus far.

SPEAKER_06: 3:13

So Hookemorns and Hookam Horns is right. My husband actually grew up as a Texas fan because his family was from outside of Dallas. So yes. Yes. Okay, great. So you've led and observed many change initiatives across organizations. And your experience, what are the most common reasons change efforts often fail?

SPEAKER_01: 3:39

Yeah, this is a big opening question, I feel like, because I feel like you could read hundreds of articles, listen to the same amount of podcasts, Google anything online, and you'll find hundreds of different combinations for an answer to this. And the reality is they're probably all right to some extent, which I think is what makes the concept of change management really difficult to manage sometimes. So, in my experience, and a lot of my experience has been working with complex human capital and organizational design development type initiatives, but I like to do things that I can remember. So I put things together into five categories that start with P. So we'll call them the five P's of why, the overarching reasons why I think that change often fails. And the first one is purpose. If you identify the wrong why for a project and miss the root problem, you're solving for a non-value-added issue. So the bottom line is you're wasting your time. You'll never get to the end result that you're trying to get to as you work your way through. It's like saying you want a road trip to Boston, Massachusetts, but putting Austin, Texas in your navigation. You're never going to get there. The second one, I think, is planning. Often in the change process, we don't make time to plan. We think we can just jump off the cliff and go, right? That's just the reality of business. There's not a lot of value always put into that time. But if we don't spend that time, particularly on large or complex change initiatives, we end up with overarching issues and strategic alignment, proper resource identification, and totally unrealistic expectations for the project, which is a recipe for disaster. It allows it to become fragmented, allows for that scope creep. And again, you're wasting time because you don't know where you're going. Broken navigation will never get us where we're going, right? So those two are kind of married together in my mind. The third, I think, is presence. If you have not put together a team of executive sponsors or senior leaders that are present and accounted for in whatever initiative that you're trying to roll out, you get the do as I say, not as I do concept. So you're asking all of these team members and employees and stakeholders and clients and everyone impacted to do this and get on board and move forward, but they don't see the face of the person that should be driving the change, which is absolutely going to crush motivation along the way. So having that senior presence, whether it's one person, five people, the whole board, doesn't matter who it is, but somebody's got to be representing that in order for change to be successful. I think that that tells into four, which is passive communication. How many times do we think we all are in the same business? We do the same thing, we're speaking the same language, we all show up in this office together every day. So we don't need to talk about this because everybody knows what's going on. We're just going to hit go, right? Puddled to the metal, we're going. Nobody knows where we're going. Again, we're lost in the process. So having really direct, consistent, frequent communication is the key to all of this. And what I've learned along the way is that when you think you've communicated enough, do it again. Because there's somebody who missed it some way. And we've got to communicate in a lot of different forums and facets in order to make this work. Everybody learns and absorbs information differently. And so just because it makes sense to me doesn't mean it makes sense to anybody else along the way. When you don't do that and don't have that effective communication strategy, it causes you to miss really key knowledge gaps, magnifying risks. It causes confusion and it ultimately just impedes the deliverables and frustrates everybody along the way. And last is you've got to find those partners. We've all got to have people to hang out with and work with during this process. And so this is really twofold, in my opinion. It's finding the proper stakeholders to engage with so that you're getting the right information, the right feedback, that you have those change champions out in your organization that are helping you to get where you need to go. But second, and sometimes more important in a partnership angle for me is you have to know who you are and what your personal blind spots and weaknesses are as a change leader, and then surround yourself with people that augment that. Because if you can't do that, if there's too much pride, too much ego, too much ownership of what's going on to be able to bring people smarter than you to the table, you will be on a crash landing every single time with this. So the five piece purpose, planning, presence, passive communication, and partners. If you fail at those, you're done.

SPEAKER_06: 8:21

That could be the whole podcast or we could discuss that for the next many months because there's so much, so much in every single thing you said. And I always, whenever we talk about change management, we absolutely love the subject because even in small changes, I could look at how we definitely fell short in some of these areas. Even the the planning part, which is always an interesting thing, is because like, how much do you need to plan? How do you figure out when the planning is enough?

SPEAKER_01: 8:53

It almost seems like a catch-22, right? Because you put this beautiful plan together, but 100% it is not going to go in the direction of that plan. And so having the plan lets you be able to pivot quickly from the plan to figure out something else instead of scrambling the entire way through. But it is kind of a dichotomy, I feel like, sometimes. And I think also why people don't think it's really important is whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen. So we'll just roll with it, right?

SPEAKER_06: 9:19

Uh absolutely I know I absolutely and I think because we tend to be a very agile company, I think that's unfortunately we have fallen into that trap. Like, okay, we'll just we'll pivot quickly.

SPEAKER_00: 9:33

Did it before, do it again, right? Exactly. Right. So I no, I agree. I think there's so so many layers to that onion, too, because everything that you said there, I think people who work in any type of organization have kind of like could reference something that they've experienced. We're like, oh yeah, that's why that failed. Because like there wasn't that constant communication, right? We all have ideas of those examples that you gave, our own examples of living that out, which is why we have these conversations to be like, you're not alone, and this is why it's important to manage initiatives and talk about all layers of it because the buy-in is important and the the evolution is too, right? The whole process. Absolutely. There's so much to unpack about what you said too. And I I mean, I love all of it. Like, that's definitely our recording bit. But there's there's also like how do you avoid getting to that point? Like it what are early warning signs, I guess, for those areas that you're talking about that if you don't have these five Ps, forget about it. What can we look to to get ahead instead of falling short and not being able to turn back?

SPEAKER_01: 10:48

Yeah, that's such a great question because so many times we're sitting there going, why everyone's angry? What happened? Like you're just kind of blindsided, right? And so I think for me, there's really three sort of consistent things that I've seen across any project that I have ever worked on or change initiative, doesn't matter what the topic is. But the first one, and it always happens, if this is happening, there is a problem, is continuous scope creep. If every single time you're going back to the table and the project is getting bigger and bigger and bigger and the initiative is getting bigger and bigger and bigger, or we're constantly turn left, turn right, go straight, up, down, the direction is constantly changing. It indicates that the why, the purpose is lost. There isn't a strategic alignment because if we're aligned to strategy, which is like an anchor, that's our route. If we're aligned to that, we won't see the wide swings that are going on. You won't see continuous pile on of other things because everyone is really clear on the direction that you're moving. You'll see some, but you won't see it swinging from left to right like that. It also means that you likely didn't get the right partners or have the right conversation with the partners at the planning process because you haven't properly identified the issues, because scope is creeping when other people are coming to the table saying, wait a second, what about me? Wait a second, what about this over here? Wait, this doesn't actually solve my problem. I need this problem. And you've got that sort of spiral going behind it. So scope creep is a number one. If that is happening on a consistent basis or on a large basis, one of those Ps is lost in the in the shuffle there. I think the other one, and this really ties into the communication piece and a little into the planing, I think, too, is silence or sort of that bobblehead, bobbing head yes response from people on the team or from people impacted by the change. That means people aren't telling you the truth. If all if they're saying nothing or all they're doing is shaking their head yes or telling you yes to everything, you're not getting the information that you need to hear. There may be some lack of trust, or people are a little worried to tell you hard things or tell you things that they don't think you want to hear. And they may not understand what it is that you want them to do. So that goes to what we were talking about a second ago that everybody may not be actually moving in the right direction. And they don't know how to communicate that to the person in charge because they're moving forward like a freight train. I have been that person. My brain moves at a thousand miles an hour. So sometimes I'm six steps ahead of everybody else and they're going, well, wait a second, come back this way. We don't understand what we're doing. And so that silence has been a key indicator for me along the way that that doesn't mean acceptance. That means I've lost 90% of the time. And the last one I think really has to do with what is senior leadership doing? So looking at that presence, right? If senior leadership is constantly redirecting resources or is not providing the resources that are needed, whatever those resources are, they're probably not fully vested or don't fully understand the value proposition for what it is that you're doing and why it should matter to them. They're choosing something else over what it is that you need with this because they think that has more value to the organization. They're trying to do right by the organization in the biggest way possible at that level. So when that's happening, it's time to re-baseline and have those tough conversations of, hey, we all signed up on this. We all agreed to be a team on this. Are we going in a different direction now? And how can I pivot to help support that? Do we need to drop this? Are you not getting the information that you need? What can we do to get you back present and fully engaged in this? Because you're really important to the process. And where do we go from here? Those are tough conversations, I think, to have. But that resource pooling is always a sign that something else has caught the attention of the decision makers in the room and you need to figure out why.

SPEAKER_06: 14:57

Excellent information. So important. One of the things you mentioned is sometimes it starts going off track because of scope creep. How do you determine whether it is actually okay that there was scope creep? Because sometimes things happen.

SPEAKER_01: 15:18

Yeah, I I think for me, I always go back to the what value is this adding? So it's always as the change leader, I'm always having to think down the line of what's the end result of doing X. So whatever that ask is. Does it build goodwill with a partner and create an opportunity to potentially have better engagement? I might do something like that, even if it's a little sideways from what it is, the direction that we're going. But if I can align it, that might be a reason to do something. If it is really setting up an opportunity for the next phase, because often we're doing phased approaches to implementations on things, right? So we may not be all the way there yet, but it makes sense to do this because it's a foundational step to something else that could really provide some value for the organization. That's something that I might do in the process. If it's something that gets people excited, maybe your project is stalled and you've got a little nugget over here that would get people really energized again. That's probably something I would look at doing too, because you don't want people falling out of the process with everything because they're just bored and they don't want to do this anymore. So it's really just sort of looking out at the end of the day, what's the cost or benefit, cost and benefit, not cost for cost and benefit of doing whatever it is you're being asked to do? If the benefit outweighs the cost, that might be something worth considering.

SPEAKER_00: 16:49

Almost the question is like, is it scope creep if something genuinely was missed? Kind of, right? Like this is kind of like what you said. Is there an opportunity to develop something further? So we should try this out or or adapt to that change. How if now that also I think may lead to uh the five Ps maybe getting a little bit lost, right? Because then we're we're talking about recalibrating a plan, we're talking about re-implementing the communication. And then with or without that, maybe that frustration comes, right? That we were talking about like why are people angry? What's going on? We made a change for the better. So what is how can leaders what are what's my question? What tactics are there to help leaders kind of mitigate those things? Whether it's the scenario of we're adapting to a little bit of creep, or it's just genuine frustration or resistance. Like how what how can leaders navigate that and how do they know what's normal versus like an actual problem when it comes to resistance too?

SPEAKER_01: 17:59

Yeah, I think so kind of twofold, the straight answer to the the scope creep part for me is just it, and you kind of hit on it in what you just said, is the the communication. Just acknowledge that we're gonna do something else or we're going to add something else, or being transparent and open about here's what we're doing, this is why I made the decision, let's go, is goes such a long way with the team and understanding I don't have to agree with you to appreciate that you explain to me why you're asking me to do something different or go a different direction, right? It's when it to me, when it happens in the dark and nobody understands what's happening, and it's just all of a sudden Friday we were going this direction and I show up Monday and we're going a totally different direction with no explanation. So I think that's the quick way is just be open and honest with people to the very largest extent possible about why you're doing what you're doing. But I think to the second part of that question is resistance is a part of the change process. I mean, people by nature, all of us are self-focused. How does this impact me? What do I get out of this? Why should I do this when what I was doing yesterday was totally fine for me? And now you want me to do something else. So what's in it for me, right? That's just our natural inclination as human beings. So I think the first thing in recognizing and sort of talking about resistance is acknowledge that the actual statistically, the vast majority of people are not going to be early adopters of change because innately our brains are just not wired to do that. That's not, we like to be comfortable as human beings. So what I do every day makes me comfortable. The processes I use make me comfortable. The technology I use makes me comfortable. And now you want to change those things, right? So just accepting that is part of it, that goes into it knowing that there is going to be some pushback and some resistance to that. And that is normal, to your point, for those kinds of things to happen. I think it's also really important to note it's close to 40 or 50%. I can't remember the exact statistic, of people in the change process are going to be late adopters. It's close to, I think 20 or 30% are in that group alone. And then about 15% or so of people are just flat out never going to adjust adopt change willingly. They might do it, but they're not going to just be happy about it. And so that's not the group I'm focused on when I'm looking at is this normal resistance versus a deeper problem. I'm paying attention to where is that resistance coming from? Is it coming from really key stakeholders, regardless of where they fall on that pendulum of change acceptance? Is it coming from really high performers that typically are all in, yes, let's do this? And they're going, whoa, hold on, wait a second, I'm uncomfortable. That's going to make my feelers go up immediately because these are people that typically will be flexible and roll with the things that you're asking them to do. Is it coming from people that are typically your champions and cheerleaders and support what you do and those kind of things, whether or not it's your team members, colleagues, whatever, that's stuff I will start paying attention to also because it's indicative of a bigger systemic problem. It means whatever that gossip, the meeting after the meeting, the water cooler talk, whatever's happening behind the scenes that you're not involved in as the leader is making its way up into people that are in that closer circle to you. And that's happening because people want you to know, but they don't want to tell you. So I think that's really important is to pay attention to where is the communication coming from. And I think too, it's just really critical to know the normal organization culture and communication style of your organization that you operate in, to know if something feels out of the norm. If you don't know that, then you will have a really hard time pinpointing where there are actual problems versus, well, Carrie just needs to say this out loud and then she'll be fine and we can move on, versus Carrie. Not talking, we have a problem. If I don't know anything about Carrie, I don't know the difference between those two, right? So I think it's really knowing the organization and the people around you when you're going into something like this. But the best advice honestly I can give is trust your gut. If you feel like there's a problem, there's a problem. You got tapped to lead whatever it is that you're leading with this change because you have the leadership skills, the technical expertise, the trust, the knowledge, all of those things to be able to do this. So if it feels wrong, it probably is. And you need to start asking questions and start coming from a place of curiosity in a hurry to try to figure out what it is that's actually causing the problem.

SPEAKER_06: 22:40

It's interesting because you hear the stats about any anywhere between 70 to 80, 90% of change management initiatives fail. And you you find that like I I can't believe that it's actually that high. But when you're talking about all the different steps that are involved and how it's so intertwined with so many different things, like culture, right? I mean, you can have a lot of things planned, laid out perfectly. But if you don't have like the buy-in of the culture, if you don't have the psychological safety of people wanting to talk about issues, because people might just assume, okay, well, my leader told me I have to do this. There's a lot of issues going on. I'm not gonna say anything, I'm not gonna cause any problems, but there's just there's so many layers to it that I guess how could it not go wrong? So it's it's very interesting.

SPEAKER_01: 23:35

Absolutely. I think psychological safety is such a big one. And to be honest, as a young leader, it was something I failed at because I didn't even understand that concept because I was a person that was very direct, was very, it wasn't personal for me. It was like, this is the business, let's go. And then the relationship is separate from the business. Like I don't take any of this personally. I'm not the norm in that situation. And I had to realize that about myself as a leader. And I was very fortunate to have a team member that said, people think that you're right and you're a great leader and you're this and you're that, but they don't want to come talk to you. Well, why? It was just like that psychological safety concept did not even resonate with me. And I'm so glad that all those years ago that she was courageous enough to walk in my office and say, My friend, let's chat. The business and the relationship are not separate, they're intertwined, and it's what makes all this hard. And it was just sort of one of those lightful moments of here I was 30 years old, leading this HR organization and having this total like epiphany moment in my office. As someone starts talking to me about that.

SPEAKER_06: 24:44

Yes. And that's just like a whole nother level, too, because we've had some podcasts on psychological safety. And that you can do the best you can in an organization to really try to make people feel comfortable in speaking up. But sometimes it's just the way this person was raised, right? No matter what, no matter how you make them feel safe, they might rather die than actually talk about issues.

SPEAKER_01: 25:14

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06: 25:15

I've seen employees like that. I could actually name them like on one hand at 31 and a half years, people no matter what. And it's it's funny because it's not funny, but you understand more and you understand their background and what maybe happened in their lives that they just they were not able to do it. So so so just another complexity to this as good as you have it planned. So that's why you have to make sure that you're as ready as possible as you're reviewing.

SPEAKER_01: 25:44

Absolutely, I couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_00: 25:49

So how d do you balance pushing through the plan versus pausing to reassess a plan if it's not working? Like, let's talk about that aspect for now. Like let's things aren't landing, right? Where where do you spend your time and focus on like the what's going wrong, but what do we do about it? And uh how again the balance of it, pushing through, getting it done, adhering to deadlines, but we gotta think about something here.

SPEAKER_01: 26:16

Yeah, so I'm kind of chuckling in my mind as I'm as I'm listening to you ask that question, because the thing that keeps coming to my mind is my my nieces are in elementary school, but when they were in preschool, I remember their teacher used to sing this song called Stop, Look, and Listen in order to get the attention of all these four-year-olds in the room. And to me, it really is that simple when you're looking at is it it's to stop, look, and listen at what is going on in the organization and why this is starting to go off the tracks. And I think that's one of the pitfalls of change is we think it has to be super complicated and there has to be this really big philosophical answer or some sort of methodology in order to make all of these things work. But um I think the best way I can describe it is to give an example of what to do when things aren't landing. So for many, many years, I volunteered for a fraternal organization that I am involved in. And my job with them was to transform collegiate chapters, usually on very large campuses, to help them improve their competitive positioning, not unlike organizations that are trying to improve their market position or market share or any of those kinds of things. So it was basically large-scale change with a resource-constrained group of people who were stressed, who were overprogrammed, and who were untrusting of the process. Sounds like almost every single organization I have ever interacted with in the corporate world, as well. And so the national organization had a strategic plan and they did a really good job of identifying these five buckets where the organization fit. These were the focus areas for the organization. And so it was as simple as sitting down. Things were not leading with them. They were not having success on campus, they were frustrated, they were tired. It was all of the things that we'd been talking about. And so every week, the collegiate chapter leadership would sit down with me for 20 minutes. We're not talking about hours of time, 20 minutes out of a week. They would sit down with me and we would go through their entire calendar for the week and all of the requirements and different things that they had coming up for the week. And they had to bucket them into one of those five buckets. So they had a little grid and they would literally move them to the five buckets. If they couldn't place it, it went off the chart. So if it didn't fit in a bucket, you stopped doing it. So they looked at their information, they stopped doing the things that were not aligned to the direction that they needed to go, and then listened to each other about why they should or shouldn't go in these different places. And so that easy, simple, basic 20-minute meeting gave them an opportunity to stop a very vicious cycle of burnout when you're constrained resources. Burnout is real, whether that's money, time, people, whatever it is that you're dealing with. It opened up a communication channel with me, who was the face of a larger organization, by building trust to say, I hear you and I'm trusting the decisions that you're making because you know better than me. I'm here to guide, but let's talk about how to open up time. That's what they were struggling with. And it empowered them to be decisive, to drive results. Super simple. Literally, here's the buckets. Does it fit if it doesn't stop doing it? So that applies to business too. If you're strategically aligned, if things are going off the rails or not landing, stop, look at what you're doing, listen to the people around you, put it in the buckets and quit doing anything that doesn't align to those buckets and start doing everything that does. And you will very quickly get things back on track back on track and give yourself an opportunity to build rapport along the way. Because I think sometimes as change leaders, we feel like we have to have all the answers. And I've learned along the way when I come at people with the answer, they don't listen. When they come to me with the exact same answer that I would have come with, everything changes, right? So it's checking that ego and that pride again and giving people the opportunity to step forward and engage. So I know that's kind of a roundabout answer, but I think it's such a simplistic but effective way to show that change doesn't have to be complicated. And I would love, I do want to talk about the pushing through the plan piece too, but I also want to pause because I see the thoughts rolling here too.

SPEAKER_06: 30:46

An excellent example. How did you determine? So before, as far as you're talking about the buckets.

SPEAKER_01: 30:53

Yeah. So the senior leadership of the organization had done a strategic plan. So if you're in the strategic planning process for your organization, it would be what came out of that process. And then they did a great thing, which I've actually used in my professional capacity as well. Every single bucket had a one-word title. They were so it was think about academics, membership, philanthropy, whatever it was that the focus was. So the more, again, going back to that communication, the more direct and concise that it can be, the more it will stick in people's brains. So then they start thinking in terms of the framework that you created that you want people to follow.

SPEAKER_06: 31:33

Excellent. Do they often have a hard time coming up with just the five buckets? I know that's one thing in an organization that we have sometimes. We have too many things. Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 31:44

The thing that I loved about that organization is there were no rules about what it looked like. So for one biennium, it was the five buckets because that made sense for what the organization was working on. In another biennium, the focus looked different. And so the way the plan was structured was different. So I loved that they had the agility and the flexibility to not be married to format and be married to function of what they were trying to do.

SPEAKER_06: 32:13

Excellent example.

SPEAKER_01: 32:14

They got on their eye, which is great.

SPEAKER_06: 32:17

So we know we've talked a lot about communication and what an important part that plays. Who should be involved in the communication? What level? What all levels, everyone?

SPEAKER_01: 32:29

Yeah, it sounds like a tried answer, I guess, but absolutely everyone, everyone should be engaged in the communication. But what that communication looks like should be different based on who those stakeholders are, who's at the table, and what conversation that you're having. So it's it really is the funnel approach of at the higher level, at the executive levels and the senior levels, you're talking about much bigger picture, impact, results, things of that nature. And as you're getting further and further into the organization and further and further into the technical experts of the organization, that's when you're getting narrower and narrower into the details of what needs to happen. So it's it is literally absolutely every single person that's involved in or impacted by the change needs to be involved in the messaging. And the messaging needs to be clear, consistent, audience specific, and frequent across all platforms and mediums, like we talked about a little bit at the outset with the five Ps. But your primary job as the change leader is to market the value proposition of the change. It's to gain and keep buying. That is what your job is. And to communicate the results of what you're doing and show the progress to keep people motivated to keep moving forward and also demonstrate the value proposition that you just talked about with the organization and ultimately give all of the team members executing the change the information that they need to do it, then get out of their way and let them do what they do when it comes to it. You will get results that you could not have even imagined yourself if you effectively communicate with those technical experts. They will make it happen in miraculous ways.

SPEAKER_00: 34:10

So, how do organizations embed the lessons that they can learn or have learned from making these kind of mistakes or having these challenges that they've encountered to avoid making them again? Like what are it's kind of like what we talked about earlier, where sometimes these things are habitual, right? And so, how how do you break that cycle and implement what you've learned?

SPEAKER_01: 34:34

I'm thinking how many of us have uh sat in the debrace meetings after an initiative of project or at the what app meeting, whatever it is. And we make a beautiful list, right? Sometimes a fancy table, sometimes it even has to tabbed out. You've got a whole dashboard and all the things, right? It's beautiful. And then where does it go on the shared drive and like a log box and no one ever sees it again, or before it would go in a desk drawer, whatever. It was like that was great. Thanks for playing. See y'all next year, right? How every time, right? I mean, I've done it myself. We've all done it. It's like this is done onto the next, right? We need to shift our focus. So I think a lot of in a lot of organizations do a really great job of the debriefing. I think most organizations do that is they collect the information and document the information, but then we don't do anything with it afterwards. So I think it's the best case scenario is when you can start implementing lessons learned and best practices real time. I don't know who decided that the only time that you can do lessons learned is at the end, but you can do lessons learned at any point in time to identify something that's not working. And again, if it's not working, stop doing it. That's really what we're getting to, right? Like why would I keep doing the same thing and expect a different results at the end when I could have stopped it at the beginning and shifted direction? So I think finding a way to do it real time or have those pulse checks along the way built into your game plan is really effective because then you don't end up with this 10-page document at the end that feels really daunting to go through and, oh my gosh, like we did all this stuff. Like, what are we supposed to do with this, right? That's really overwhelming, I think, to people to even be able to digest or understand. I think the other thing that we don't always do a good job at, I know I don't always do a good job at, is widely distributing that, those post-project insights. So truncating it into a marketing message for all of those different stakeholders to understand here's what we accomplished, here's what we learned, here's what's next. Get excited, let's go, right? I think that we we don't do a good job of that. We think people don't care, they won't read it. So many people want to know, well, what actually happened? People do care because they were involved all the way through. And I think the last thing for me is to really act on the insights that you gained, especially those quick wins. When a team member or a partner or a stakeholder, whoever's involved, speaks up with something and you can do it right then, do it right then. It builds goodwill, it builds trust, it makes people excited to keep speaking up and keep sharing those nuggets with you along the way because they see you actually take action. I think anytime that you have to say, let me take that or let me step away or let me go to whoever can make that decision, you always have to circle back around, even if the answer is no. Anytime that we leave people hanging or leave an absence of information, human nature is we make stuff up. That's how our brains work. So you have no idea into the conversation earlier, everyone's brain is wired differently, and you have no idea how those wires are going to cross to connect the dots about why you didn't do something with whatever lesson or best practice or information that somebody shared and it creates that snowball effect. So act, take action, be decisive, do the things that you can do, even if they are small, do it, and it will make a huge difference in being able to, it just becomes part of normal practice at that point.

SPEAKER_06: 38:09

Excellent. I'm making sure everybody in my company listens to this podcast.

SPEAKER_05: 38:14

I've literally carryed when I grow up incredible.

SPEAKER_06: 38:19

Good information. I do too. Well, when I get younger.

SPEAKER_00: 38:23

So Maria and I are gonna meet in the middle and we're all gonna be carrying.

SPEAKER_06: 38:29

Yeah. Okay, very good.

SPEAKER_01: 38:33

I think it really just boils down to you all of this that we're talking about, whether to pivot, whether to pause, whether to push forward. It I think that the big hurdle that we run into, and I know I've run into as a leader as well, we all want to do right by everybody. We can't. All we can do is make the best decision in front of us today, right now, and then make the next best decision and the next best decision. If we can make things into digestible bites and just keep doing the best thing that we could do with the information that we had at the time, we avoid the killer, which is analysis and decision paralysis. That happens in change where it just stalls because nobody knows what to do or nobody wants to step forward and make the decision. If people take away nothing else, communicate and act. Those are the two things that I would say are so important with this, that no decision is good or mad until you make it. So make it. Just make it. And if it doesn't work, make another one. It's nothing that we're doing is finite or binary. It's not there, there's none of that to it. Everything is fluid, like we were talking about earlier. Everything can shift, everything can change. You know, it we're not talking about a situation that's life or death in 90% of the situations that we're dealing with, right? Unless that's actually what we do for a living. So make a decision and then make another one. It's it sounds so simplistic and so elementary, but just like stop, look, and listen. It is elementary, but it's the reality. So just make a decision and then make another one, make another one, make another one. And eventually you'll string enough decisions along to get the results that you want.

SPEAKER_00: 40:16

Beautiful, Carrie. It's well, it's earlier what you said too, just to go back to your point of this sounds very elementary, but one of the first things you said too to introduce that is that this doesn't have to be complicated. It doesn't. It doesn't. So I mean it's a it's a full circle thing that your gut and and sticking to the basics really can carry you a long way. And I didn't even have to ask the last question. You see how she did that? There was like a pause, and I was ready to ask, and she's like, let me just give you some takeaways.

SPEAKER_01: 40:46

I love it. I mean, really, I it it just I I I just think we have to pivot away from the people are complex, relationships are complex, organizational dynamics are complex, politics are complex, all of the things that we're dealing with are complex. So let's don't add another layer of that. Just do what feels right to you. And if you screw it up, own it and then do something else. It's it's people will have so much respect for leaders. And I found people had so much more respect for me when I didn't come across as perfect and polished and almost robotic. It was it, it's it makes such a big difference when people feel like they can actually, well, she screwed up, so it's okay if I screw up, right?

SPEAKER_00: 41:37

Absolutely, it is. That's the name of the game sometimes. I love it, Carrie. We have so many little nuggets from this episode. So thank you for sharing all that information. I'm gonna heed your advice and do what feels right, which is the TTA 10, right in this moment. So, David, you better have been ready because we are.

SPEAKER_03: 42:01

It's the TTA 10, 10 final questions for our guest.

SPEAKER_00: 42:09

You answer as quickly as you can on it, and like honestly, do that because the that's what makes this part so fun is just your instincts and give us your answer. There's 10 questions that I have lined up that I'm gonna ask you. You answer them, and then at the end, David will have like a little celebration for you for your incredible achievements throughout this episode. So that's how we'll end things up. Okay?

SPEAKER_01: 42:33

Well, follow my advice, and I'll be enthusiastic and decisive on where you go.

SPEAKER_00: 42:39

You make a decision and then you make one again, right? Yeah. Alright, sounds like Carrie's ready. So, David, are you? Can we get 90 seconds, please?

SPEAKER_02: 42:49

Yes, Jocelyn. Wait a minute, I just lost my train of thought. What? Oh wait, I got it. The T T. 90 seconds on the clock starts. Now.

SPEAKER_00: 43:04

Okay, Carrie, if you were a serial, which one would you be? Here you guys. If you could instantly master any skill, what would you choose?

SPEAKER_01: 43:14

Oh, any skill. I would be. I recently decided I'm a really good axe thrower, so that sounds fun.

SPEAKER_00: 43:21

Okay, come with us. If you what song would play every time you walked into a room for your theme song? Oh I've a tiger. If you could swap jobs with anyone for a day, what would it be? I think it would be fascinating to be Taylor Swift. How much is that doggy in the window?

SPEAKER_01: 43:45

Five dollars. Go ahead with a waggly bill.

SPEAKER_00: 43:50

Would you rather fight one four sized duck or a hundred duck sized horses?

SPEAKER_01: 43:56

Why a four sized duck or a hundred duck sized horses? Horses. Let's get one horse-sized duck. I feel like I would feel really accomplished.

SPEAKER_00: 44:08

What is an unexpected talent that you have?

SPEAKER_01: 44:13

I am a little bit double-jointed and I am great at making up random songs.

SPEAKER_06: 44:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 44:20

Well, I'm gonna pick you up on that. If you what's one piece of advice you wish you could give your younger self? You are amazing. Exactly where you're at. If you had to choose between coffee or tea for the rest of your life, which would you pick? The coffee. Always. How often do you, if we were robots, how often would you need a software update? Oh my gosh, probably nightly. What's your favorite color? My favorite color is pink. Pink. Alright, well, there's our 10 questions. David. All right.

SPEAKER_02: 44:57

Yes. With a time of one minute and 23 seconds. Carrie is indeed a winner today.

SPEAKER_01: 45:08

He's playing that form music when I defeat the duck.

SPEAKER_02: 45:14

Well, now I feel pressure because Carrie said she's good at making up random songs. We here at the TTA 10 research department and creative department, we came up with the following, Carrie, to salute you for your big victory.

SPEAKER_04: 45:36

Down in the South, she learned to hustle. Built her dreams with grit and muscle. Now she drive and change from coast to coast where the big shots brag. She does the most. From boardroom floors to factory line. She's got data and heart and perfect time. Carry quick. Don't miss the trick. Turns plans to gold and make some mistake. When the pressure's high, she won't flinch, won't quit. Yeah, the numbers dance from carry quick, then it from Hard Dreams. The business game. She runs it smart. Runs it slick. Carrie quick, don't miss a trick. She scales it up. She locks it down. Builds people first. That's how she's crowned. Sheriff services, home automation things. She's got execs. Calling her the queen of things. Texas State made her tough and wise. Now she's leading the stars in every enterprise. She's the heart of the plan, the brains in the fizz. Ask anyone who's work where Carrie is. They'll say she's fast. She's bold. She's bold. She's slow. That's Kerry Quick.

unknown: 47:01

Hello!

SPEAKER_06: 47:04

That is fantastic. Now you have a new theme.

SPEAKER_01: 47:07

So I was gonna say, now you know what plays when you walk into a room, girl. Made my day, and now this is going to be my Two Truths and a Lie thing. Is someone has made a song about you.

SPEAKER_06: 47:24

That was excellent. Well, that was absolutely fantastic, Harry. And yeah, we're happy.

SPEAKER_00: 47:31

Such a pleasure. Thank you for coming to us as well. I mean, I adore you. This was an incredible episode, and we look forward to working with you more.

SPEAKER_01: 47:40

Absolutely. Same same.

SPEAKER_00: 47:45

For more information on managing change and resistance in your organization, visit us at the TrainingAssociates.com. See you later.