The Other Side of the Struggle (Healing from Betrayal Trauma)
Healing from betrayal trauma is no small feat! It takes a lot of work, time, and focus in order to do it. That's all great, but then there's the "HOW?" In this podcast, we will talk about Betrayal Trauma, my past with it, how I healed from it using Christian Scripture, and how you can do the same thing.
The Other Side of the Struggle (Healing from Betrayal Trauma)
Healing from Stalkholm Syndrome with Gloria Londono
What if your greatest ordeal became the key to your personal transformation? Join us as we sit down with Gloria Landano, the inspiring author of "Flourish in Captivity," who recounts her harrowing experience of being kidnapped in Colombia at 25. Held in darkness for 90 agonizing days, Gloria opens up about the psychological torment she endured and how the thought of her three-year-old daughter became her beacon of hope. Get ready to explore the depths of survival instincts and the unexpected emotional bonds formed during such traumatic experiences.
We dive into the emotional aftermath of Gloria’s captivity, discussing the profound sense of abandonment when ransom demands go unmet and the lasting impact on her mental health. Gloria bravely shares the complexities of Stockholm syndrome and the long road to unlearning maladaptive behaviors developed as survival tactics. This intense and candid conversation sheds light on the ongoing struggles with trauma, fear, and anxiety, long after physical freedom is regained, and how these experiences can shape one's sense of identity and relationships.
Finally, Gloria's journey of healing takes center stage as she reveals the transformative power of forgiveness and self-love. Learn how a pivotal forgiveness retreat helped her end a 14-year abusive marriage and embark on a path of personal growth. We discuss the importance of recognizing true, unconditional love, breaking the cycle of suffering for future generations, and rebuilding one's life with passion and freedom. Gloria’s story is a testament to resilience and the boundless potential for personal transformation even in the darkest of times. Tune in for an episode that will inspire and uplift, offering profound insights into healing from trauma and embracing the journey to self-discovery.
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https://www.erinandersonthetraumacoach.com/ClarifyandCreateBoundaries
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Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Other Side of the Struggle. I'm really excited, guys, because today I have another author with me, gloria Landano, and her book is Flourish in Captivity. And as I've been sitting here chatting with Gloria and about her story and about her healing journey overcoming Stockholm syndrome, and about her healing journey overcoming Stockholm syndrome, it's been just an absolutely amazing story, and I absolutely had to have this in this podcast for you, because I know a lot of you are dealing with maybe not as as severe as what Gloria has gone through, but definitely some some Stockholm syndrome yourselves, and so I really wanted her on, I really wanted her to talk about this, and so I want to welcome Gloria to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2:Erin, thank you so much for inviting me here, and it's an honor to be able to share my story to people that it will change their lives and maybe understand a little bit what they're going through.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely. So let's go ahead and dive right into this. You told me your story and, honestly, I have been like, oh my gosh, like everything you've gone through, right, like it is so traumatic. But like, tell a little bit about your story, like what you've been through, and then like, what are some of the things that are that you're doing to bring you out of this? Because it's it's intense.
Speaker 2:It is definitely intense. It is. It is. It is intense as a complex trauma.
Speaker 2:And what happened was when I was 25 years old, I was kidnapped in my country, colombia, and they put me in the trunk of a car and they put me in a room for 90 days in the dark and in that, in the beginning of that situation, it was like very traumatic and a lot of, a lot of anxiety, like nervous, your, my body and my mind was all over. My mind was spinning. I didn't understand and comprehend where I was, why I was doing there, why me? And the question was why me, why me, why me? And mad. I was mad to life, I was mad to God. I was mad to a lot of stuff because I was in that situation, god. I was mad to a lot of stuff because I was in that situation and in the beginning, when they told you they're going to kill you if your family, they're not going to pay because they kidnapped me. So they told me you are kidnapped, you know that you're kidnapped and I said why you guys kidnapped me? And then they said well, because we know your family have a little bit of money, so we need money, so that's the easy way for us. That's what they said, and I knew about kidnapping stuff because in my country is a country that is a little violent and you see those cases more often than in other countries. So when they told me I was kidnapped, I said, oh my God, like oh, this is serious, because a lot of people don't come back from being kidnapped or they torture you on a way that, for example, the family wants to see if you are alive. They cut your finger or cut a piece of your body to show the family that you are alive and also to put the family on like, oh my God, we need to do this fast, because then they're touching the person and they're going to kill her eventually. So it's like a psychological, like I would say, game and you are kidnapped and your family automatically also get kidnapped into the same situation, because it's like overwhelming for both. It's overwhelming for it was overwhelming for me that I was kidnapped and I don't know what's going to happen to me in the future, and was very overwhelming for my family that they don't know where I was. Yeah, in that time I have a three-year-old daughter that in the morning that day that came at me in the morning before I went to school, I left my daughter in the daycare and when they came at me in the afternoon, like 5.45 pm, for me was like oh, who's going to pick up my daughter? I was always worried about my daughter and my daughter alone was the one who kept me alive in the entire process, because if I didn't have a daughter I probably wouldn't care what's going to happen to me.
Speaker 2:But going in through that, in 11 days in in my cleanup, it got to a point that I couldn't cry anymore. I couldn't feel anything. It was like it was something disappeared from me. It was like, okay, I'm in this situation, I accept the situation. But before I got to that conclusion, I had something powerful that talks to me but I didn't understand. Like Gloria, this is what it is. You have to accept the reality and just be. And then I said well and I stopped. I said well and I stopped, like crying stuff.
Speaker 2:And then the mind started to change and the first 11 days your mind is like in flight or flight, if I fight or flight. And then you like in survival mode the entire time. The three months is in survival mode, but at 11 days, when you just reach the point you don't have no more energy to cry, you have no more energy for anything. The survival mode starts to change on. Okay, how I'm going to survive this situation, how I'm going to maintain my life safe in this situation. And I start okay, let me be grateful and let me be kind, you know, let me use the kindness, but it's nothing like I knew what to do.
Speaker 2:It came alone. Because you want to protect your life, because they are there, was telling me, they was gonna kill me all the time. If your family don't pay, we're gonna kill you. If your family don't pay, we're gonna sell you. If your family don't pay, we're gonna take you to the gorillas. In the gorillas, it's an organization that live in the mountains and they don't care if you stay one, two, three, four, five years.
Speaker 2:So it was like constantly, constantly on the border of panic and nervousness. My nervous system was off, so it was constantly all the time. And that survival mode that is so tiring, it takes everything from you, but then your body gets used to and to live like that is awful. So when I started telling them oh, thank you for the water, thank you for the food, thank you for taking me more to take a shower. Thank you for everything. To take a shower. Thank you for everything, everything. Then I started to see that at the beginning was like oh, what is woman is telling? What is girl telling us? Oh, thank you for everything and the condition that she is in. And then I saw that the energy started to shift with the kindness and the guys was like more nicer, and then I started developing more into the Stockholm syndrome.
Speaker 2:The Stockholm syndrome Stockholm syndrome and I started to see them differently, not my enemies, it was more okay, I need to survive. I need to be friends with them. I need to survive. I need to be friends with them. I need to survive. I probably need to seduce one of them because it always was like. It was always like men and I saw one of the guys. When you are in survival mode, you are super intelligent and you have like superpowers and you started like to read and to understand each person that have you in captivity.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And in my case it was four men and I can't describe. I never see their faces because there was always cover. So I only see the eyes. And so my five senses started to amplify. So I, I see the soul. You know, know, the eyes is the window of the soul. So I was dealing only only with the eyes and the window of the soul. So the kindness went through that, yeah, and I started to learn, like how each one smells, how each one's talk, the sound of the voice, the energy of the voice. Who was who? Like I discovered who was the leader of the organization. I also discovered who was the one in the pyramid, the one in the bottom, like the worker, and I start like understanding that.
Speaker 2:But the survival mode get me into that Like, okay, we need to survive, we need to see. And then I start like, oh, I see this guy is kind of quiet and kind of reserved. I want to start seducing this guy. Then I started like hi, hi, how are you? Good morning more, like more, extra nice. And the guy started to engage and then I said, oh, I do have a power, like women have that power to seduce. And I start like, oh, you smell good. Oh, when you come in, oh, thank you for the food, thank you for this. And then the guy started like bringing me more different foods, more attend, what I need. And then I say, okay, this is my, my target for me to survive and for me to to leave. And then I involved emotionally with him and sexually also with him, and I got what I need. I got like he said to me, I'm going to save you, no matter what. That was my purpose, and if your family don't pay, I take you with me. So that was my, my, my purpose. But inside of me I was saying no, I don't, I don't want, I don't want to be with this guy. I'm just using this guy for me to survive.
Speaker 2:And then something weird starting to happen, like I start feeling love for him and then like trying to protect them and like trying to help them how they can talk to my family for them to get the money that they need. But I was like doing that, like, okay, my family needs to understand that I'm trying to negotiate the kidnapping side and I don't want my family to pay more of what they are asking for. So my family didn't understand that, but I already have the people inside of. You know, family didn't understand that, but I already had the people inside of you know a you know different with me.
Speaker 2:Because there was one situation December 18, 1997, that my family requests they want to see if I was alive. My family say we don't have money to pay for it, we don't have money to pay for it, we're not going to pay, and God bless you and your daughter and good hands and we have nothing to do with this. And for me, after two months here and that, it was like I got the I feel abandoned and I said, wow, how my family can do this to me. But I didn't know what was happening on the other side, right right, and I got mad to my family for a long time because of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I never understand why they did that. It was for me like a roulette, like, okay, if what, what happened? If my kidnappers, if I didn't do the work that I was doing, the kidnappers will, will kill me in in in the moment, because that's what they said oh, you hear, mother, you know a big word and and we're gonna kill you because you hear what your family is saying. I can't understand your family, why they're saying that, blah, blah. They was mad and I was going into panic attack, like, okay, this is serious, they're going to kill me or they're going to sell me. It was like something like I could comprehend. I think the only people can understand this is people that be in captivity or people that are being in war. Yeah, it's something that, like it, take your essence and takes everything from you. Is that desperation of wanting to leave and to not feel that they're going to kill you. And because I had already working in the kindness, the guy that I have the connection, the guy said wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's, let's pause here, let's, let's pause here. See, she's having, you know, a breakdown, a nervous breakdown. Let's's, let's wait. And they live, they leave. And then I said, oh, my god, they're gonna kill me.
Speaker 2:So the guy I would say I would say in this, in this podcast, my guy. He came in and say don't worry, hey, we're gonna see what we, what we can do, but I don't, I don't want you to get killed. So for me it was okay if I trust this guy or not, but that was the only option. I have to trust the guy, yeah. And then I have to do some like cart letters to my family saying that please don't pay the money and all that stuff. And something also happens when you're in captivity. When you're in captivity, your physical body is kidnapped but your mind is free. So you have ideas and the survival mode gives you this sensation of how you're going to survive the situation. But when you get out from the kidnap, your body is free by your mind out to kidnap right away because you already suffer like a complex trauma.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you go through a lot in a very short time, your brain is like trying to say, ok, I don't want that to happen again, and so it like it almost kind of collapses in on itself to make sure it doesn't happen again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I get it Exactly, sure it doesn't happen again. Yeah, yeah, I get it Exactly. It's very hard to understand, like how the mind, like how the mind can trick you so quickly and in one moment you are like, oh, thriving with your mind because you're trying to survive, and then the next hour that release you, your mind gets in panic and gets like, oh, my God, oh, I thank God I get out from this and I don't want this happen to me again. So I got scared for everything. I got scared for the night. I got scared to be in the dark. I got scared to be alone. I got scared to walk outside. I got scared for everything. I got scared for everything. And also I had the. I have this like abandoned, abandoned shit, abandonment, you know thing. Then I have the, the rejection, and I have all these kind of issues that the, the kidnap situation got me into. So I was a hot mess, emotionally a hot mess.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes, I mean, and it makes sense, Like you would be right, because that's such a complex trauma and that's such a big thing to be dealing with and like, granted, I don't think there's I don't know, but I don't think any of my listeners have gone into quite that complex of a trauma, right, but, but you're right, you're, you're so right, like what ends up happening, like when we finally get out of that situation, is our body becomes free but our mind goes right into captivity because your amygdala is just on fire, like this is just what happened, like holy heck, like I don't want that to happen again. And so you're constantly watching your back, you're constantly like and like, where do I need to run? And so it puts you almost in this fight, fight, freeze or fawn response on a consistent basis.
Speaker 2:You know yes, and and to heal it takes a long time. And it took a long time for me because when I got released, my parents didn't have the education to understand how bad I was, so I didn't have a therapy right away I didn't. So I was running in survival mode the entire time and after I got released, like 10 months after, I couldn't live anymore in my country. I feel like I was kidnapped and I was continuing to be kidnapped because my father didn't want me to go anywhere. If I go to the supermarket, it was with four or five people and it was like who can live like this? So I was like I still keen up and with my family. My family also was keen up in a way. And I run to this country in survival mode and that was make me successful in the job or the work I did, because I came to this country. When you're an immigrant, you come to this country, you need to survive. So I was in survival mode. So already I was on in survival mode. So for me to scale in the job and whatever I was doing in the job and whatever I was doing, it was quickly, but mentally, emotionally, I was a mess. I was like very defensive, very toxic, nobody can tell me anything because I just slap on it like answer in the wrong way. My relationship with people was terrible. The relationship that I had with my partner because I did have different partners it was terrible. And it because I didn't have the help to deal with the PTSD, because PTSD is complex too, ptsd you don't know when it's going to come up, because you can't be, like you know, watching TV and something come out that triggers you and then you react. So I was reacting, I was very reacting to a lot of stuff until one day I said, wow, I'm really not. I'm not really good at what I'm doing, like emotionally, my relationship with my family, the relationship with everybody. I hate my family for a long time because I never hear their story, I never hear their side of what happens, when they have to say they don't have money. So I was mad to them, I didn't want to talk to them for a long time. And somebody told me one day Gloria, if you really want to succeed in life and be better, you have to forgive your family and talk to them and be closer to them. And I said, no, they do this to me. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I had to sit down with my father and ask him why you say this, dad, you have no money and I feel that you just left me there and I feel that you guys don't care about me. And I feel that you guys don't care about me.
Speaker 2:And I remember that day was a healing one of the most healing process I already did because he started to cry and he said well, we have to take medication for us to be able to say that, because we don't want you to, we didn't want you to, nothing happens to you to, we didn't want you to, nothing happens to you. But the person who was in charge to deal like the military, the person who's in charge to deal with the people that are kidnapped, he told us what to do, because we don't know what to do in the negotiations with these people. So the authority told my father and my mother you have to say you don't have no money. And my father was asking to the guy who was in charge are you sure? Are you sure I cannot do this?
Speaker 2:And the guy said well, you have to take medication if you cannot do this, because she needs to. We need to try to fool the kidnappers and make them think that this is not a case here so they can release you. And then said I said well, well, that was. I was lucky that these guys didn't do anything to me, but it was a possibility for, like they're gonna they was they wanna they're gonna kill me in the moment. So, having that conversation with my parents, it was powerful, because I just run with my story, I just run with my side, and because I was emotionally ill, I was selfish to listen to anyone and then the Stockholm Syndrome started to reflect in my relationships.
Speaker 2:So tell me, about that started to reflect in my relationships because I start to get attached to guys in survival mode and, okay, this guy I don't feel I don't, I don't feel that I have the capacity to stay in this in a economic wise. I don't know if I can, if I can support myself. So I think this guy can help me. So I got attached to him and I was happy to with him because he was providing, I was providing to, but in my mind didn't recall that I can do this by myself. In my mind didn't recall that I can do this by myself.
Speaker 1:I need, I need it, I needed him. So I'm curious do you feel like you know, with everything you've gone through, because this is just like such a wow story, you know, like, like, what you went through is just so hard yes, right, like just so hard, yes, right, it like so incredibly hard? Do you feel like, because of what you went through in the captivity, that, um, that is what taught you that you could not do it by yourself, cause, really, you couldn't get out of the situation by yourself. You had to form a bond with one of your captors, like like I see that right. Or cause that was your safety, like they had to be your safety, yeah, right. And so you found you form this bond with your, with your captor, because he was the only one that could provide you that safe passage out. Do you feel like that is the piece that filtered over into that relationship, these next relationships, because you realized or you believed that you couldn't do it yourself because of what happened?
Speaker 2:Yes, 100%, believed that you couldn't do it yourself because of what happened. Yes, 100. I I doubt myself many times because of that. Because, yes, a lot of people can say, wow, you're so strong, you survive your survivor and, yes, you have no choice. But it comes with that Something so ingrained on you like they change completely the chemical of your brain. It changed a lot of stuff about you. You, when you get kidnapped, you are one person. When you get out, you are another, completely person. So you lost your identity because if they force you, it forced you to be different. Yeah, it's not like, oh, I'm gonna go get kidnapped because I want to change no, the situation. Make you change a lot of stuff from you that you don't even understand.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, you know I say this all the time that, like trauma, and especially complex trauma, you know it teaches you like you're always learning things, your brain is always pulling things in, and so when you go through a complex trauma, your brain is like on hyper learn right, and you explain that like it's, it's so, so like tapping into almost more than what you would normally use, you know, to keep yourself safe and to keep yourself in in these situations. But you learn certain things in a complex trauma or any type of trauma, that actually when you, when you take them into a normal life, it makes it anything but normal, because trauma teaches you things that actually do not work for a normal life.
Speaker 2:Yes, and, like I said, it's difficult to make the changes right away. It's like three months in panic, three months on survival mode, three months in darkness, three months trying to survive. You don't have no rest. Even I remember when I go to sleep. No rest, even I remember when I go to sleep. I wake up in the middle of the night and start to cry. It's a constant three months of you crying and constantly worry, constantly. Every time they opened our door, what are they going to do to me? Me, every time they came in with those guns, is is living in the, in the border of the edge the entire time.
Speaker 2:So when you get released, you live like that yeah and how long is gonna take that to for you to realize that you it's not anymore.
Speaker 1:It's different than everybody yeah for me it takes a long time yeah, well, it would because, like I said, you, even in three months, I mean, you pull in, you pull in a lifetime of information in that amount of time, yeah right, and you have to. So you know, like you talked about like forming a bond with your captor and and like, in a sense, being in captivity with your future relationships too, like you, you kind of looked for those, those, those things, because you realize that there's actually a safety, yes, in the captivity, right, and like that's it's. It's insane to say that to somebody you know, like that hasn't been in your situation, but you felt safer because you actually knew what you could control in that moment right, right, yes and so you start looking for that in your partners.
Speaker 1:So tell me about, like, healing from this type of Stockholmholm syndrome like it sounds like looking for the actual truths is is what started to shift? So start telling me, like how changing because I know right now you're not in a relationship, which I think is such a good thing for you, especially right, right, yes, because of these things that you've learned about relationships but where are you at right now in healing the Stockholm Syndrome? Like how did you start working this out of your mind, your body and your nervous system?
Speaker 2:I got into realization five years ago that I never loved anybody. Realization five years ago that I never loved anybody and every single relationship I was in it was a survival mode for me, to feel safe. And I, when you are being kidnapped in Stockholm syndrome, you lose your identity. So I also feel that I don't. I didn't have identity. So I also feel that I don't. I didn't have identity in my relationships and also I didn't have my self-esteem was low and I I've been very successful, very successful in business, but very not not that successful in my relationships, because that was my, you know, my safety, survival mode was there. So the last relationship it was I was attracting a lot of narcissist people and I also question myself okay, so I'm a narcissist too in a way, because I'm attracting a narcissist. But I'm also okay with a narcissist. I can deal with the narcissist Because if I deal with the kidnapper, I can deal with any situation that was in my mind. So six years ago I said no. Five years ago I said no, I cannot, I don't feel authentic, I don't feel myself, I'm doubting myself all the time.
Speaker 2:This relationship that I had with my husband for 14 years is horrendous. I don't trust. And the weird thing I got these partners that I can't trust. They do always something for me not to trust. So I have I started to have from kidnapping I have trust issue, so I was attracting trust issues. So the last, the last person, he did he like break my core in pieces. And for me to get up from that it took me almost 10 years, 10 years for me in therapy, 10 years for me to understand. For me, 10 years it was like more of the more of the more same thing. It was like more of the more of the more same thing Betray, humiliation, not trusting. And I said no, I'm going to finish this relationship. Five years ago I was in fear, like, oh my God, now what? I'm going to divorce, I'm not going to have money enough to support myself. I don't know if I can, if I can work again. I'm in my 48, because I decide when I five years. I decide when I was 47, 48. I don't, I don't, I don't have my age, 48, 49, oh my god, what I'm gonna do myself. I'm too old to restart my life.
Speaker 2:And then the conversation started, like you know. But I already lived with him for 40 years, not trusting him, you know. But I feel okay here and maybe I don't talk about this subject to him because every time I talk to this subject to him he get mad at me and he scream on me and he gets like weird with me. So if I, if I don't talk about that, that bothered me, I probably can't avoid a fight. So what I was doing it was surviving and accepting all the the stuff that he, he was doing to me.
Speaker 2:He was very sarcastic, he laughed about me and I got very mad when he do all that kind of stuff and I got into very verbal verbal abuse. He verbal abused me. So we got into verbal abuse. We got into also physical abuse because he said to me one day oh, you are nothing and you cannot do anything, and he pissed me off so much. And then we got into physical and we called the police and all the stuff and I said, no, I cannot live here anymore. If I stay one more time here, we probably one of us we're going to kill each other.
Speaker 2:Because, I'm not going to. I wasn't the point that I was not going to tolerate any more from him. So I have to make the decision, and the decision was 10 years ago. One of my friends told me let's go to a forgiveness retreat for four days. And that forgiveness retreat for four days, and that forgiveness retreat, it was the beginning of my transformation. But it was like it's not. Like you go for four days and you come completely different.
Speaker 2:No, it's just you just start peeling. You just start peeling what you have to work. Yes.
Speaker 1:I agree.
Speaker 2:So I started to change and I started to see that I was not in the right place with the right person in the right moment.
Speaker 1:So what did you learn about forgiveness that shifted things for you. That was the turning point.
Speaker 2:Forgiveness for me is the the most powerful tool that exists for you to heal anything. Because when you have, like, a fight or you're angry to someone, you have that energy on you and you you have. You feel like you're heavy, you're heavy, you're heavy, you think, that energy on you and you you have. You feel like you're heavy, you're heavy, you think that things don't go well and every time you think about that person you feel angry and mad and upset, and so your chemicals in your body start again, over and over and over, you know, damaging your body, damaging your mind. So forgiveness for me is the tool number one. When I did the forgiveness to my father and my mother, it was like wow, a lot of miracles are starting to happen for me.
Speaker 1:Because it opens up the door of truth, right, correct, yes, yeah, yes of truth, right, correct?
Speaker 2:yes, yeah, yes. So then I had to do the. I already did the uh, the forgiveness to the kidnappers before, before I leave the, before I leave the kidnap, because I told them thank you so much for everything like that, thank you so much for everything. I don't feel anything, you know, in case of you, but I didn't know. I have a Stockholm syndrome, but when I get out it was so ironic Like I didn't feel bad things about them because they didn't kill me, they didn't torture me, they didn't do anything. But I took a long time with my family, mad because of what they said. So it's an ironic thing. I should be mad to the kidnappers longer, and not longer with my family. So it's something that you don't know why things happen that way.
Speaker 2:So, forgiveness, I forgive the kidnappers, I think about them. It doesn't feel anything like mad or nothing. I forgive my father and my mother. I ask for forgiveness too, because I'm, you know, sorry for everything I feel about them and my last relationship, my ex-husband also. I did also a process of forgiveness, writing letters of forgiveness and also telling him to forgive me of thinking all those bad things about him and he also was. He apologized to me and also he asked for forgiveness to me. But that one took a little bit longer. With him it was like, yes, we did that. But then I feel later, years later, that I still have things bad feelings about him because what he did to me so I got the decision I said I'm getting divorced the two first years was very emotionally distraught.
Speaker 2:I got a little bit of depression, a lot of anxiety too. I don't know what's going to happen. I have to change my car, I have to change my house, I have to change the way I'm living. I was living very, very good and then I still living very good, but it was a big change for me and I know a lot of women are. They stay in relationships to not lose this status. And in they stay in relationships, they said, because they're kids. But they don't know when you stay in a relationship, that is that bad. You also damaging your kids. And that's what happens to my mom and my father. My mom stayed with my father for 33 years and I saw a horrendous relationship, toxic, like I was saying eight years old when I was eight years old. I don't want that. Oh, I don't want that. And guess what? I repeat the story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly, cause that's what you saw, that's what that was, your normal.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And so we can sit there and say like I don't want that. But until we actually see what that is and like the patterns of the that, like that's exactly what we, what we do, because our brain is already programmed into those patterns, you have to absolutely reprogram and unprogram, in a sense, your brain so that way, you know, you don't keep following these same you know symptoms and these same patterns. So you know, going back to the stockholm syndrome, right, because you know, you're right, like a lot of women do have a fear to leave. Right, because you know, for your kidnapper, you know, attaching to him, that was your safety Right. Attaching to your husband, it was some type of safety Right, even though, even though he was like volatile, like there was the financial safety, there was some sort of stability that we, that you wanted. Right, yes, yes. And at some point you had to say to yourself actually, the stability that I want isn't what he has to give. The stability I want is yes, I want this financial stability, but I also want.
Speaker 1:The stability I want is yes, I want this financial stability, but I also want emotional stability, I want mental stability, I want physical stability, right, and we start looking at all the areas of our life that we need stability in. So, you know, what would you suggest then to a woman who is dealing with the Stockholm syndrome, who is struggling to leave because she's still in that space of you know what? I love him, right, I feel connected to him. Like what would you tell her? Like one of the number one things you've got to realize?
Speaker 2:We think, when we are in relationships like that, we think we love them. It's not love. That's not love. It's love for them, because they think that probably that's what they see before and they probably are used to that, but that's not love. I mean somebody that betrayed you or somebody that humiliate you, or somebody that treat you bad and that humiliate you, somebody to treat you bad and and verbal abuse you in many ways. Do you think that is love?
Speaker 1:Not at all.
Speaker 2:Not at all. But for them, they think, is that. And I thought, when I was kidnapped, I feel love for this, for this kidnapper, and I thought I I was in love with my husband for 14 years and I said, no, this is not true, this is not the love, because I saw people that have good relationships and they have good marriages. Of course, every marriage have their own stuff, but some people have very healthy relationships and for me it was so hard to believe that, for me to. If you, if you come and say to me, gloria, I know I have a good relationship, we love, we travel, we do this and stuff and yes, we do have our stuff and we resolve things quickly I don't believe you.
Speaker 2:I was in that place, yeah, right, why? Because it's based on my experience, yeah, and based on what I see. So what I told to women that they think they love the person who abused you that's not love. That's not love. They need to get out of that scenario and start to learn about love and see if it's really what you understand about love, if it's really what you're receiving, because we cannot say that love is this way or this way. No, let's find out what is a real relationship. What is love? Unconditional love, love, 100% sure Love is not the person who abused you. That's not love.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:No, Because you can't give what you don't have right. And whatever that person is giving is what they have.
Speaker 2:Yes, and always the abuser is being abused. So if they've been abused, they become abusers. Or they abuse them or they are used to. They can go into routes. They like people to abuse them and they're okay there, or they become abusers. Yes, so when women are in a relationship with an abuser, the two people are completely emotionally ill Either way.
Speaker 1:And mentally to some degree, oh yeah yeah absolutely. And you know, and again my sweet listeners, I mean we're not here to say that you're mentally ill or anything like that, but it is what she's saying is true, right, because when, when we stop, when we slow down and we sit there and we're like what is actually true here? Right, that's us connecting into love, because love is truth, right?
Speaker 1:Right it absolutely is truth. Truth is also seeing the very best in yourself, like, yeah, you might see like what this person can do and like what their potentials is, and maybe you might love that perception and you think to yourself, I can help them get to that perception. But the truth of the matter is is it's not up to you to help somebody else take action. You can't do that.
Speaker 2:We cannot be saviors.
Speaker 1:No, we are not the savior. We cannot be saviors. We are not the savior. And this is why forgiveness is so important is because it is literally giving up, like what is so hard in our lives, to the saving. Now, if you don't believe in the savior, then you've got to really take a look at what your highest form of love is right, exactly yes you've got to take a look at. You know, what is it out there that loves me so purely because it sees like the actual, the true version of me, Right.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And we're not talking about just, you know, living a mundane lifestyle, like actually a glorious version of you, right, that sees the best, best best of you. What is out there that's moving heaven and earth, the energies and everything like that, for your best interest? What is out there that's literally taking and I love, I love this analogy that's taking, a banana grown in Ecuador. You know, knowing that that banana grown in Ecuador is going to be given to you from your grocery store, like, understands where that path is headed, puts the exact nutrition in that banana that you need for your body, right, sends it to your grocery store so you can buy and eat it.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Right, that's what we're talking about when we say the highest form of love it's whatever it is that's out there that has your back so incredibly, right, right.
Speaker 2:For example, when you know, when women have a Stockholm Syndrome and have an abuser, when the abuser shows a little bit of attention, a little bit of love, like, for example, oh I like your haircut today, that woman needs to want that more, not so little, because that's what abusers do. They when they see that the person the women is like don't want anything and they are, the women are seeing the true about the whole thing they know that the woman is changing.
Speaker 2:so what's happening is starting to, you know, say nicer things to her. Because women tends to have always a hope. Because we are not the women that we go in a relationship and, for whatever reason, we just end and abort the relationship. We work the relationship. We try. We also suggested our partners let's go to the therapy, couple therapy. We're always looking for solutions. But when the viewers see the women is going another way, the viewers start like, oh, I like your haircut, or starting to be nice for a week. And when the women say, oh, oh, my God, I'm so happy. Now I don't need to make the decision, I don't need to go anywhere. He's changing. He's not changing. He's chasing you to stay.
Speaker 1:He's placating. For him to abuse you more, yeah it's placation, yes, it's absolute placation, and you need to understand that, because somebody that truly loves you is also consistent.
Speaker 2:Consistent.
Speaker 1:Right, yes, it's not this up and down roller coaster of a relationship where you're feeling like you're a yo-yo. You know, every time your string gets pulled, and that's what that is is yanking your chain right, yes, and thinking, oh okay, now I have a little bit of hope. String gets pulled, and that's what that is is yanking your chain right, yes, and thinking, oh okay, now I, now I have a little bit of hope. That's actually the sickest game somebody can play, because they know what you need, they know what you desire, they know what they need to do, but they refuse to do it unless they're playing a game with you, unless they feel that they are losing you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm going to tell you a story that happens to me. When my last husband the day I said to him I don't want, I want a divorce I went to Costa Rica to live for three months by myself and in that process I was processing, like to be alone, to see if I was doing the right decision, and all that stuff. 10 days before I was coming back to the States he started being nicer and he started like, yes, we should work the relationship. I'm so happy. And I started like, oh my God, I'm so happy. I'm so happy and I start like, oh my God, I is so good. These three months I was out, he really find out about my value and he loved me and all this stuff. Somebody that is not real cannot hold for more than two weeks. When somebody is not giving you the real love, the real thing about the person, authentic, it cannot hold that for too long.
Speaker 1:Of course two weeks after that back to what you guys were at.
Speaker 2:Back to the same thing and I said to that day, I said you know what? I'm calling my lawyer to restart the process Because I stopped the process. Because he said I want you to stop the process, let's think about it. Blah, blah, blah. And the two weeks after I come back, when he show me again the same thing, I said this is not, that's not anymore, I don't want this anymore. Let's restart the case. But a trick, people like that. A trick, a trick us when, in the way, like you said, when they know what we like and what we know and what we're expecting, let me tell you they play with us and we leave them to play because it's also our fault, because we can see, we know that. But the fear to leave the relationship doesn't allow us to be authentic yes, and that's the key, I think, and you know, tell me what you think like like in healing stockholm syndrome is actually being authentic to you.
Speaker 1:Yes, right, like, because we attach for safety. In truth, when you actually start loving yourself so deeply, it's so much harder for you know, for you to attach to someone that is not authentic themselves. No it doesn't mean, like, like you said, that there's not going to be struggles in the relationship. That doesn't mean there's going to be times like holy heck, what did I get myself into? Yes, Right, it comes down to whether or not that person will be consistent in change.
Speaker 1:Right, right Because you're consistent in changing for you. And the thing is is you don't want somebody else to change for you, you want somebody else to change for them Exactly. And once you find somebody that is consistent in changing for them, that self-growth, that hey, I love me for me, right Then, and you're doing the same thing. That's a healthy relationship. Yes. Because you're both living the relationship for you yourselves right, but you're benefiting mutually because you're both giving yourself your own needs.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And this is this is something like to think about, like why my husband betrayed me because I betray myself. Yes, ok, that that's number one, because we can sit down and say, yes, him, him, him, no, I betrayed myself. And when I understand that, four years ago I cried like a little baby because I was betraying myself, how I was living all this to happen and not realize why the fear was holding me down, and I said you know, I'm going to confront your fear. I am capable to be by myself, I can be capable to heal myself and to be in peace with myself, and that was my ultimate goal.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:To nurture, to revive myself, to understand myself, to get out my self-esteem, because I feel ugly because the guy didn't look at me. I feel ugly, I feel weird, differently, because the guy was never like, oh, you're so beautiful and that, or things that we like to hear from our men, nothing. So my self-esteem was down. I said, no, I'm going to start loving myself and the only way to understand that is being by myself. And it was like first time in my life I'm going to be by myself. And I have already four years and a half and I'm so happy and every time I feel free and every time I know myself and recognize myself and I said thank you for all that experience that I can recognize myself and love myself yes and with that comes, like the fear, also a little bit of dating, because I said, oh my god, date, ah, to come, go back to that.
Speaker 2:For all the work I've been doing, oh no, I don't know if I can be. If I can do that again, it's because I'm not ready and people when they get out from relationships, the worst thing can do is go jump in and all yeah, way, yeah, give yourself some space, give yourself some time.
Speaker 1:Yes, I completely, completely agree.
Speaker 2:I love it. And when you have a complex trauma you have to give more time.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, you do. You need more time to be by yourself and to love yourself. Love yourself the way God loves you. See yourself the way love sees you. Yes, right, because if you love yourself, love yourself the way God loves, you, see yourself the way love sees you.
Speaker 1:Yes, right, because if you love yourself to that degree, then you're going to start seeing other people that reflect that same type of thing. If you're attracting people into your life that do not see you, do not love you, do not care for you, that are just, in a sense, trying to emotionally and mentally vampire off of you, yes, you've really got to take some look inside of yourself and say hold on, what is it about me that's attracting this right?
Speaker 1:yes and you've really got to answer those questions and take a really good self self, dive in and look at what's going on inside of you right is.
Speaker 2:Just think about if you have 20, 25 years of being of use. Just think how much time you need to rebuild yourself. A lot of time to rebuild that back. A lot of time. But you need, you want, you need to have that, want it to say I'm going to stand up for my, for me and, if you have kids, also to show your kids that you cannot continue with that chain of suffering, because it's a chain of suffering. So you want your kids to repeat your story even worse yeah, exactly, and it does so kids can see you rebuild yourself.
Speaker 2:Wow, oh, my mom was abused. My mom, don't she finally find out and put us in in a safer environment? And oh, I see my mom is getting better.
Speaker 1:So that that is teaching your kids to also not tolerate abuse yes, I agree, because and that's that's the beauty about this it's like the reason why we become the best versions of ourselves is so that way our kids can see it and become the very best versions of themselves. I love it. So tell us a little bit quickly about your book. We've got just a few more minutes, but I'd like to hear about Flourishing Captivity. Obviously, you tell your story, but what is the process you help women through when they pick up your book?
Speaker 2:well my book is about. It's a memoir of survival for forgiveness and hope. So when you read, when you go through this, it's a very you read that book in one day if you want. It's very short and I I I made it in with that intention for you to see another perspective of life, that some people go through complex trauma and I was able, I was able to to flourish and cultivate flourish on all this path. It's not being an easy path. It's being a challenge path because I like to change the difficult, to challenge, but that's exactly what my soul choose.
Speaker 2:Sometimes we say, why me? Why me? Yeah, you came here to this earth with a purpose and a mission. And when you understand that you have a purpose and a mission is when somebody read my book. That is a guidance for survival. I teaching another person to understand survival and even understand that how complex we can be and the way we can. You know flourish in life. Because I always said it's weird to say this, but the kidnap was a blessing in a way, because it teach me so many things. But also I have the choice to go into routes the one of the victim or the one that you know what this thing happens to me. It's painful, I have a lot of things to deal with. I have to convert this into positive way, and I did it.
Speaker 1:You did.
Speaker 2:And that's what I want when people read this book to say you know what? I never have that kind of trauma, but my traumas are a little bit different and, I think, a little bit more easier, I would say, to overcome than a complex trauma, because everybody have trauma and trauma are necessary for evolution they are and you know.
Speaker 1:the thing is this is one of the things I talk about often is, honestly, if you want to find out what your mission and purpose is, you've got to take a look at your passions. You've got to take a look at your spiritual gifts, like the things that you were born with. You've got to take a look at your talents.
Speaker 1:They're different, spiritual gifts and talents are different and you've got to take a look at your traumas. And you've got to take a look at your traumas because when you understand your own traumas and you heal them, you can actually start to see a pattern in your life that maybe. Maybe this is a piece of what I'm here to do, right.
Speaker 2:Right To help people to get out from that survival mode, for people to be free, because sometimes I said they took away my freedom yes, physical freedom, but I took it out myself. So what is the purpose? To be free mentally, emotionally and also in your heart, free of anything. That's why it comes the forgiveness, that's why I said forgiveness. Forgiveness, it frees you.
Speaker 1:A free use from everything because it's actually for the giving. It is giving something up that has been anchoring you and keeping you low for so long. Exactly yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly, wow.
Speaker 2:And also to go ahead and also is to have passion for life. I have passion for life. Even they tried to kill me three times, I still wanted to live, I still want to like and still today. Even sometimes life is complex and sometimes it's like I always wanted to leave more and more. It's like okay, what is more there?
Speaker 1:What is more there? What's worth living for right?
Speaker 2:Yes, I love that, I love that.
Speaker 1:I love that. That's a good question to ask. You know, if you're struggling with any of this, what is there more to live for? I love that, gloria. Thank you so much for being here and sharing your story. Thank you, absolutely amazing, and my listeners go grab her book, reach out to her if this is something you are dealing with. For sure, until next time, we'll see you guys on the other side. Thanks so much, gloria, for being here.
Speaker 2:Thank you, ciao, ciao.
Speaker 1:Bye.
Speaker 2:Bye.
