The Other Side of the Struggle (Healing from Betrayal Trauma)
Healing from betrayal trauma is no small feat! It takes a lot of work, time, and focus in order to do it. That's all great, but then there's the "HOW?" In this podcast, we will talk about Betrayal Trauma, my past with it, how I healed from it using Christian Scripture, and how you can do the same thing.
The Other Side of the Struggle (Healing from Betrayal Trauma)
To the Woman Who Keeps Smiling While Secretly Struggling
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Have you ever smiled through a conversation while secretly feeling like you were falling apart inside?
In this episode of The Other Side of the Struggle, we’re talking about the silent exhaustion so many women carry while still showing up for everyone around them. The meals still get made. The bills still get paid. The kids are still cared for. The smile is still there. But underneath it all… there’s a woman quietly wondering how much longer she can hold everything together.
This episode is for the woman who feels emotionally overwhelmed, unseen, unsupported, and tired of carrying the weight of everyone else’s needs while ignoring her own.
We’re diving into:
- Why so many women learn to hide their pain
- The emotional weight of being “the strong one”
- How self-abandonment disconnects us from ourselves
- Why emotions are often the voice of self-compassion, not weakness
- The difference between being loving and disappearing inside relationships
- Faith, boundaries, honesty, and healing
- Gentle first steps toward becoming emotionally supported too
Sweet friend, you were never meant to carry the entire world by yourself.
There is another side to this struggle. And healing often begins the moment we stop pretending we’re okay when we’re not.
If you would like to book a free coaching call click on this link to schedule a time:
https://calendly.com/erin-anderson-coaching/creating-your-unbreakable-boundaries
Get your free "Creating and Clarifying Boundaries" PDF here!
https://www.erinandersonthetraumacoach.com/ClarifyandCreateBoundaries
Don't forget! You can come join us at:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/theothersideofthestruggle
Hey my loves, welcome back to another episode of the other side of the struggle. Okay, today I want to talk to you women who are feeling like you're showing up for everyone. You're out there still making dinner, still answering texts, maybe you're still going to work, you're still building your business, posting the smiling photos, saying I'm fine, still trying to be graceful and grateful, still trying to trust God, but deep down you still feel like there's something fracturing inside of you, and you're exhausted. Your soul exhausted. And that is why I'm doing this podcast for you guys today. Because I think that there's a lot of you out there that are honestly, truthfully, still kicking butt while at the same time struggling. And you're wondering, you know, when is it your turn? When is it your turn to finally have some peace, some clarity, and someone that gets you, that really hears you, that really understands, and hopefully maybe give you specifically a few steps forward to help you feel seen, heard, understood, valued, validated, and appreciated. Because these are all things that people need on a daily basis. These are the six basic human needs. Today I really want to speak to you because maybe the people around you are like think you're handling it super well. Maybe they do see the the weight you're carrying, but they're like, oh, she's so strong, she can handle more, right? But inside you really do feel like your heart is breaking. Maybe you're the one that's crying in the shower because it's the only place you can. And you encourage everybody else while secretly wondering who's going to encourage you. And I want to say something to you specifically today that I hope really lands with you. First and foremost, you're not too dramatic. Okay, you're just overwhelmed. You're feeling overwhelmed. You feel like everything's been piled on you, and you're not dramatic, you're not crazy. You probably have some very legitimate reasons to why you feel the way you do. And this isn't weakness, you're not failing. This is just real life. And real life sometimes pelts lemons in your direction that aren't even good for lemonade, to be honest with you. Let's talk about what to do. If this is you, I don't want to have you stay in your pain. That's not what this podcast does. We don't focus on what's hurting, we focus on what we can do. Because people who stay in pain for way too long, it shows up in their not just in their nervous system, but it shows up in their physical body, it shows up in their ability to create income, it shows up in their ability to create lasting, sustainable, and connected relationships. It shows up in so many other places in their life. And the whole reason I wanted to do this podcast in the first place was to really make a difference, really make an impact, and really help you heal. Now, let me say one thing too. Before I get into this, if you would like specific help with your boundaries, feel free to schedule that call. And here's the reason why oftentimes you need support, you need somebody outside of the situation who doesn't have as much of an emotional investment as what you do to be able to help you navigate what your next steps are. But on top of that, okay, it's also good to not feel like you're having to do everything alone. And if this is something you're struggling with, you definitely feel lonely. Life is pretty hard right now because you're feeling like you're having to do everything on your own. And I want to give you the opportunity and the option to choose in to not having to do that anymore. So if that's you and you would like to talk to me personally, you do get me personally. Feel free to schedule that call. The link is below. Okay, get on my calendar. Let's get back to this, though. A lot of women become the strong one because they've literally just had to. Not because they wanted to, but because they've had to. And you've kind of learned, or is it what's in your nervous system is this belief that if I fall apart, there's nobody there to catch me. I have to catch myself. So you became the responsible one, easygoing, understandable, patient. So that way you're not being labeled as too much needy, moody, crazy, right? And so you hold everything together when you really feel like you need to fall apart. You become the woman everybody praises because you handle so much, and then they think it's okay to put more on you, like I said. But you're my if sounds you, you're probably also sitting there wondering, like, when do I get to be taken care of? When do I get to put all of this down for a few minutes just so somebody else can pick it up and carry it for a while? While I sit down, while I take care of me, who sees me? Who really sees me? They can see all I can handle. That's great, that's fine. But who really sees the real me? Who notices that maybe I'm struggling too? And why do I feel alone even when I'm surrounded by people? A lot of women are silently grieving lives where they're emotionally overfunctioning for everyone around them, and no matter what you do, or no matter what you say, it seems to be like that's kind of the norm. And that's exhausting. And eventually your body is gonna start speaking because you're gonna feel overstimulated, anxious, numb, maybe emotionally reactive, or maybe a little rebellious. Rebellion actually, and a lot of my clients does kind of point to this sometimes. You might feel disconnected, tired, and it's not because you're crazy, it's because your nervous system was never designed, especially as a woman, to carry the emotional weight of the entire household all by yourself. Your nervous system wasn't created for that. Women are incredibly strong. We're incredibly resilient creatures. God has given us a beautiful, beautiful calling. And this is also, I want to be very clear, this is not the Pooh-poo on men podcast, okay? I really do appreciate the men in my life, how they show up, etc. And even though sometimes I even feel like they pile things on me. Men are truly wonderful, and that is one thing that we really do need to start coming to an agreement on, because the more we get into the mindset that men are bad and men are evil, the more it actually perpetuates our trauma. There really are very good men out there. Sometimes they might not be not sometimes, I don't know a single perfect man, but I also don't know a single perfect woman. I don't know all perfect children. I don't like people aren't perfect. Okay. So I do want to say that, not to discount what you're going through, but actually to help you stop perpetuating the trauma. Because if we truly, truly do believe that all men are evil, we will keep carrying this burden the rest of our lives because we will have taught ourselves that there's nobody else and no one else that will do it because they can't be trusted. Okay, and instead of silencing yourself to try to create peace, and this is where things kind of start to blend between how we actually start to see people and how we start to show up, it's setting a boundary of I choose to speak the truth no matter what. Okay. Now, granted, there are a couple of you know, I would say be cautious here, whatever you like, whatever word you wanna you want to add to that, but because if you are in a space where you actually are physically unsafe, and I do know that there are a few women that listen to this podcast that are in that situation, okay. Truth, if you speak it to speak truth to those people that actually will physically hurt you, don't do it. Okay, in your case, it's more of a live truth type of this action. Okay, when you decide to quote unquote live truth, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to speak it, it means that you get out and you start creating it. Okay, if you're in a situation where you're being hurt physically, that's an every single time, always and forever get out type of a situation. Okay, that's how you start living truth, is you choose yourself. Now that's a scary thing because you wonder if that person might follow you. Okay, but that's where you've got to find start finding support and actually also getting in and trusting other people. A lot of the men on a police force are men. Well, I just said that a lot of the men are men, right? Obviously, there are some wonderful women that are police officers too, but you know, explaining to them that you've got to get out might be a good idea. They are there to help you, okay? It could also be that you need the support of a therapist that you trust. Like you've got to start taking a look at who do you actually trust to help you get out. Because in those situations, you have to be safe. It could also mean, you know, I've had a good friend who left actually her physically abusive husband when he was at work, and he knew that she knew that he was going to be gone for several hours. And she just packed what she could, grabbed the kids, and out the door she went, and she never came back. Never came back to get the stuff in the house, never came back. Started over from scratch, and that's hard. And it's hard that that's that's the cost of those relationships, okay? I want to acknowledge that. But that doesn't mean that that is where you have to stay. It simply just means, and this is the truth also for women that are in the situations where they're carrying too much, but with a big smile on their face. You have to also acknowledge where you're at. That's part of truth. Acknowledge how you feel, acknowledge how people are showing up, acknowledge what part of it it doesn't feel okay, acknowledge where you wish people would show up more. But this is the hard part. Acknowledge how you're showing up for yourself, and sometimes that's the hardest part. One thing I want to tell you is vulnerability with accountability is actually a superpower. Again, that doesn't mean you're you're vulnerable with everybody. You've got to take a look and see like who is going to actually physically try to break to bring you down versus those who want to try to emotionally, mentally, or spiritually bring you down. Okay. If it's more of an emotional, mental, or spiritual quote unquote takedown that they want to take you through, vulnerability with accountability is also a gift. Okay. Because it says, hey, I already acknowledge where my strengths and lie, where my weaknesses lie. Like I get it. I get this is where I'm going to show up, but you don't get to make me feel shameful for it. That's something I would have to allow, and I'm just not going to. So what does that look like in a real conversation? First, I would if somebody well, okay, actually let me backtrack and tell you of an actual situation pretty recently where this where this was something that happened to me. I was in difficult conversation with someone because they were being let's just say inappropriate, and I'm using that as a very light word. Okay. And it got to a point where I started saying what was honest, like I was very honest with this person and bluntly so. But also I didn't say it in the energy of compassion. I said it in the energy of anger. Now, nobody like here's the deal. Like, if you're sitting here listening to this, I know you're not blaming me. I know that. Because sometimes it is so hard to say what needs to be said without frustration, anger, and irritation chinging the conversation, right? And let me just say, like, again, I totally get that, I totally acknowledge that, but it won't land the same way if you say it in an energy of, well, it doesn't matter on my side anymore. I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do, but I need to say this for their benefit. See, when you come at it, when you come at truth from that perspective, truth lands a lot harder. And now all of a sudden, not just God, but the universe in general, it kind of tends to hold them to hold them accountable for their actions. These are words that actually do kind of tend to ruminate in the back of their minds because it wasn't said in spite. People say a lot of things in spite, and we are taught and actually are almost instinctive to kind of brush that off. But if somebody says to us, dude, or okay, you you're out of line, but they don't do it with anger or malice or ill intent, and we know it, that does tend to land, it does tend to stick with us on an energetic and emotional level. Okay, in this case, that's kind of what happened for me. I said something that was completely true, but also in the energy of anger and frustration and you know, wanting to be right. I said it for my one-upping, not for their healing, whether they choose to, where they chose to heal or not. Okay. And when I realized that, and I know how it's gonna how it's gonna land, and I noticed too, I was feeling kind of guilty and I was feeling kind of dramatic at the same time. And I said, why is this? Well, it's because of the way I responded to this person. Yes, they were inappropriate, yes, they started this, yes, it was not okay. But that doesn't give me license, and I'm just living inside of my boundary here, and I'm being totally honest with myself. That doesn't give me license to act in the same way. What it does give me a license to do is be honest and let it land where it lands. And so, what I ended up actually doing in the moment is I went back to the person and I apologized, not because they deserved the apology, but it is because I wanted to come back to my boundary. I wanted to live as a person that I was proud of. I wanted to that vulnerability plus accountability power. So I told the truth and I said, Hey, I what I said to you was absolutely true, but I should have said it in a much more loving way. I should have said it with compassion. Well, this person tried to shove that down my throat. Surprise, surprise, right? Like they tried to make me feel super guilty for it. But with vulnerability and accountability, I was honestly able to say, hey, you know what? I didn't come here to apologize for your benefit. I came here to apologize for my benefit because I'm not going to have that type of relationship with myself. And I know the power of admitting my mistakes so that way I stay true to me. However, I think that's still something you need to learn. So I didn't come here to make you feel better. I didn't come here to gravel at your feet. I came here to be me and to stay honest and in control of me and to stay anchored in who I am. And I literally walked out of that conversation. And here's the thing: there was nothing angry about it. It wasn't coming from a space of hate or ha ha ha ha, I'm going to one-up you at that moment. It was just a simple statement of I have the freedom to be vulnerable and accountable at the same time, but you don't scare me. You absolutely don't scare me. Now, what does this do for you? If you're sitting here in this stuck pattern of you're holding everything together, and people just keep piling the weight on you because they think, oh, she can handle it, right? If that's you, my love, and I'm gonna say this with absolute kindness, gentility, and like insane love for you. I see you, I get you, but you're not telling the truth. You're not being honest because here's what's honest your needs are honest. Whether or not you think somebody's actually going to help support you in your needs, and that's why you don't communicate them, it's still honest that you have them. And that's where. A simple no goes a long way. That's that vulnerability and accountability piece. So when somebody tries to put weight on you, you simply honestly get to say, Hey, you know what? I'm gonna be honest with you, this is too much for me. When somebody disrespects you, you get to say, hmm, you know what? That feels really disrespectful. I really don't like that. And the more honest you are without shame, without guilt, because you realize that that is the kindest, most loving, most anchored thing you can do when you recognize that, what it does is it gives people the opportunity to be honest back with you, or it also teaches you who you actually can or cannot trust. Because people who are going to keep pushing and keep pushing and keep pushing and keep pushing, even though you've said no many times, those are people you don't you you don't trust. And you can honestly say that too. You know what? This is not helping me trust you. Matter of fact, what this is doing is it's creating less trust between us. If you want to keep doing this, I'm going to make a call here with the relationship. So if you want a relationship with me, I would respectfully and lovingly ask you, please stop. If you don't, okay, that's your choice, but I know how to act. And then you move forward with that action. If somebody does want to be in your space, they're gonna own their part of it when you call it out. Oh my goodness, you're right. I was not seeing what's important, I was not seeing what you needed. Thank you so much for telling me the truth. Thank you so much for owning this. Vulnerability plus accountability. This is true ownership. And it's a big deal because it truly is a superpower when it comes to setting boundaries and communicating with people without shame and guilt. You might have people that call you too much, you might have people call you moody, you might have people call you quote unquote Karen, right? But here's the actual fact of the matter: that's just people saying that your honesty made them uncomfortable, and that doesn't mean that you were wrong, that means that they don't know what to do with the honesty. That's all that means. Here's the other thing, too. When people actually don't want a relationship with you, they take a look at that constant flow of honesty, and they say, Oh, I don't want to have anything to do with that girl because she's gonna make me face myself. This is also why boundaries repel a narcissist. People, if you remember, I told you just a few minutes ago that people want to be heard, seen, valued, validated, appreciated, and understood. The only person that doesn't is a narcissist. And the reason why is because if they're truly seen, if they're truly understood, if they're truly valued, if they're truly validated, if somebody actually cares enough about them, then they care to see past their stuff. If you see into what a narcissist truly is, that is one of the scariest things for a narcissist. Absolute, absolutely terrifying. Because they know what they are, they just don't want everybody else to know. And that's why they don't want to be seen. They don't want you to know what they truly are. If you try to understand them or see them or value them, or you can't really validate them because they don't give you the opportunity, right? They don't want the six basic human needs because they don't ever want to be vulnerable. And they don't want to be vulnerable because they don't want to be accountable, and they don't want to be accountable because then they can throw whatever they want on everyone else. However, when you see them and you call them out and are just honest with them without them gaslighting you. If you're sure on your mind, because it's just simply your experience, your experience doesn't get to be invalidated. It's just an experience you're having with someone. It doesn't necessarily make it right, it doesn't necessarily make it wrong, it simply is an experience. And somebody doesn't get to question that. And if they do, it's actually more of a solidification of your experience. That uh, if this person's trying to gaslight me or make me think something less than what is true or or like what I'm actually experiencing with them, if they're trying to get me to say that my experience is invalidating, well, that's actually more validating to the experience, right? If you don't, if you have good boundaries and you don't question your experience, that is scary to a narcissist, and they want to stay far away from people who bring the truth. Well, that's a very interesting perspective that you have here. However, it does not answer the questions about what I've I've experienced with you. It does not validate my experience at all. As a matter of fact, it invalidates the whole thing. I'm not feeling seen, I'm not feeling heard, I'm not feeling valued, appreciated, understood, or valued by you, by the way that you're responding to my honest experience with you. I'm not feeling those things. That doesn't help me trust you, it doesn't build the relationship repair, it doesn't help. So I would love to give you one more opportunity to try again. I'm giving you an opportunity to truly understand me, not to invalidate me. And if they consistently try to invalidate, my loves, behavior is a language. You get to make some decisions at that point about what you're going to do next. This also works for avoidance. Okay, avoidance actually do want to be seen, heard, valued, validated, appreciated, and understood. They do. They're not afraid of truth necessarily like a narcissist is, but they do it, it is a little scary for them, not like to the point where, oh, if you see this, then it completely unravels me. More like they're afraid of it because they feel like the truth has traumatized them before. But if they realize that they're not going to be abandoned, like these are people who are deeply, deeply afraid of being abandoned. And if they feel like they're not going to be abandoned by someone who is just going to be honest with them, they tend to feel like they can open up, they can be more honest, and they're going to kind of test the grounds with you because, like I said before, they do uh value the relationship that they have with you. They might resist it at first, they might fight against it at first, they might not like it, but that's okay, right? They also get to have their experience with it, but if you're firm with the truth, it also lets them know where you stand. This is simply my experience with how you've behaved. This is what has taught me to believe, and I don't like that energy in our relationship. Avoidance will often cross their arms and pout. And you can call that out too, honestly. You know, you crossing your arms here and pouting, that's not helping me trust you more, it's not helping build the relationship. All I really need for from you is curiosity about my experience and how your actions or your behavior is affecting me. By avoiding it, it's not helping. And so, no matter how they communicate, if we run from it, oftentimes that's what keeps us stuck in this energy of carrying everything. What gets us out of it is truth and honesty. A lot of women were taught that being loving means being endlessly accommodating, but it does require true love, honestly, and life in general requires truth. Self-love requires truth. Being your own best friend requires truth. And that's why, you know, once we start to express truth and we're just honest, regardless of how somebody else responds. Obviously, we hope they respond favorably, but if they don't, okay. Women who constantly support themselves stop disappearing. Women who constantly tell the truth stop feeling invisible, they stop shrinking because it teaches your nervous system and your amygdala that what matters the most is that you've got your back. Not to try to sound you know victim-y, because the victim energy doesn't ever help anything, it's just again, just being honest and vulnerable with you. I get this energy a lot. It's something that you know, throughout my relationships, I've often noticed is people tend to feel like it's okay to pile things on me, but when I say, hey, that's not okay, I'm not okay with that, well, then they tend to go into the trying to make me feel guilty or etc. And here's the deal, eventually they stopped. Because one, first and foremost, I'm gonna get curious about their experience too. If I want them to be curious about my experience, I'm gonna get curious about their experience. And oftentimes, that curiosity about their experience reveals the truth. Whether it be that, oh, okay, I can see where you're coming from, and I can see how I need to show up differently for you. Remember, I respect myself. I'm okay to do that. But it also can reveal how they have been showing up by their own words. When you simply just get curious about what they're telling you and their story, another superpower for you if you're feeling, you know, unseen, unappreciated, misunderstood, invalidated, etc., is not just you know vulnerability with accountability, but it's also curiosity. Because curiosity, like I said, tends to reveal the truth. If you learn to, if you're not afraid of asking questions, like if you can see how, like, if what they're telling you is bringing up questions, and you're not afraid to ask those questions, oftentimes it clarifies for them what they need to do differently. And somebody who's not going to get curious about you and your experiences, you also might want to take a look and see if that's a person that you do want to keep in your life. When you set these types of boundaries, you literally have your back. You are communicating to your nervous system that my emotions matter, my needs matter, my peace matters, my life matters. And here's the thing, too. A lot of you might have been taught that being godly meant tolerating everything, that forgiveness is lying down and letting that person like roll you over again. But Jesus had boundaries, he didn't let the Pharisees and the Sadducees tell him what to believe or how to show up or how to stay silent so that way they felt more comfortable. No, he didn't do that because it would have had deep implications for us if he did. If his boundaries matter, because if he if he faltered at all on his boundaries, then that meant that might mean that it might have some some really disastrous consequences for us. He doesn't expect you to falter on your boundaries for the same reason. To be more Christ-like is to have boundaries like Christ had, to not be afraid of the truth, to speak the truth and let it land where it lands. Christ knew that power. This is why he never apologized for who he was, and he always stated who he is, who he was and is without shame. Many women have confused self-sacrifice with self-erasure, and God didn't create you to be an eraser, he didn't create you to erase yourself out of this universe, out of life. He created you. Actually, from what I've seen for women, especially beautiful feminine energy, we're here for accountability. We help keep the world accountable, we keep our children accountable, we keep our husbands accountable, we keep ourselves accountable, we keep our friends accountable because that's what true love is. It's not mean, it's just accountability so that way that person has the space to grow. We don't want to raise entitled kids, but entitled kids tend to have parents who don't give them accountability. They're afraid that that child will abandon them. They're more afraid of abandonment than they are of giving the children accountability. And that's why a lot of parents feel like their kids are kind of leading them around by the nose, right? He created you to have a voice, a spirit, discernment, wisdom, desires, emotions, intuition, and a purpose. And with truth, we live in that. It's okay to want to keep everybody else comfortable, but when it crosses the line of you keeping connected to yourself, that's when things become a problem. Healing starts when you start to tell yourself the truth because the truth is the balm that kicks out betrayal, it kicks out trauma. Trauma is absolutely what we perceive about an event. Now, granted, everybody in the world can believe that what happened is traumatic, and some things are deeply traumatic, like just hearing somebody else's story traumatizes us sometimes. I've heard of satanic ritual abuse, and it is, it's traumatic. I'm I'm I'm right there. I get that. But what tends to cause the trauma and especially the repeated trauma is the story that it it teaches us, right? But the truth is what keeps us anchored. Trauma tends to detether us to reality, to spirituality, to safety. But boundaries anchor us in the truth, and that anchored that anchoredness gives us a grounded safety and grounded stability. So here's the thing that I want you to do. If this is you, I want you to start telling yourself the truth, the absolute truth. And that requires you sitting in your emotions for a little bit. It doesn't mean running away, it just means again meeting what's coming up for you with curiosity. Curiosity isn't blame. Blame is one of the ways that we shove emotions away very fast. It's not sitting in them. Curiosity is simply asking the questions is okay, what am I experiencing? Putting a name to the emotion. Why am I experiencing it? Okay, let's listen to the thoughts that are creating the emotion. Is this true? Yes. What am I gonna do about it? No, what am I gonna believe instead? You could also ask, and by the way, this is applying the listening boundary to this. You can also ask, what do I need to learn? What is this here to teach me? Because when we listen to our emotions, we are listening to ourself, and remember, my loves, that we teach people how to treat us. When you are treating yourself with curiosity, that's treating yourself with respect. When you listen because you have compassion for yourself, not judgment. We're not gonna listen with judgment, we're just gonna listen with compassion. When you listen with compassion, it tends to take you down this road of truth, and that road of truth can help you understand what some of your deep boundaries are. So discover your boundary this week. Maybe your boundary is as I no longer like I will not be silent. I choose to speak the truth, I choose to speak up about my experience, whether they like it or not. I choose to act in truth. I choose to be grounded because these are the things I like about myself. I feel proud of myself. It feels empowering. What is the boundary at the end of you sitting in your emotions and getting curious for a little bit? Take that boundary, applot, say it out loud, and see what happens to the emotion. If they quiet, most likely you're you've got a good boundary because you heard what your emotions were trying to tell you. My loves, if this is you, if you're the woman who keeps smiling while secretly struggling, I really want to invite you to anchor into what is true. Because then that smile is going to be genuine. Because the struggle, you might struggle. I'm not saying that you'll never struggle again. But then that's when you really finally start to recognize your strength. Okay, my loves. I'm hoping that this was helpful for you. I hope that you can take this information that it can heal you, that you can do great things because you are amazing. You are beautiful. My loves, I feel your energy every single time that I create a podcast, and my love for you is insanely genuine. I want you to be seen. You deserve to be seen. You deserve to be heard. You deserve to feel valued. You deserve to feel validated and appreciated and understood. You deserve those things. Because there's not a single one of you that doesn't have an amazing, sweet, fantastic spirit that's living inside of your body. Cherish yourself, please. Because you deserve your own love. And until next time, I'll see you on the side. Bye, my loves.
Podcasts we love
Check out these other fine podcasts recommended by us, not an algorithm.