Queer Identity and Sober Curiosity in Hollywood

Actor, vocalist, and advocate Jacob Wilson joins us for a heartfelt exploration into the world of addiction within the entertainment industry. From his roots in Visalia, California, to his relentless pursuit of the arts under top-notch coaches, Jacob opens up about the tension between the industry's glamorous facade and the often harsh reality behind the scenes. This conversation touches on the challenges of identifying as queer, especially within the metal music scene, and the significant impact addiction has had on his life and the lives of those around him. 

Jacob’s raw and poignant reflections on facing rejection and battling addiction reveal the complexities of self-worth and coping mechanisms that many in the industry grapple with. He shares how growing up with same-sex attraction in a conservative environment led to internal turmoil and harmful habits. Together, we discuss the arduous journey of recovery, the emotional toll of relapse, and the importance of finding healthier ways to manage emotions while striving for a meaningful career in acting and music.

Throughout the episode, we emphasize the power of self-reflection and the courage needed to question cultural norms. Jacob's journey highlights the transformative impact of vulnerability and genuine connections, whether through the support of close friends or the gradual shift from unhealthy habits. We aim to offer hope and inspiration, shedding light on the importance of authenticity and resilience in making the world a kinder, more inclusive place. Join us to hear Jacob's powerful story and gain insights into the ongoing fight for sobriety and self-discovery.

Chapters

• 0:01 Exploring Addiction in Entertainment Industry
• 14:30 Facing Rejection and Addiction Struggles
• 28:06 Recovery and Healing in Entertainment
• 34:10 Navigating Sobriety and Self-Discovery
• 44:44 Overcoming Addiction and Self-Discovery
• 1:01:53 The Power of Asking Why
• 1:10:11 Break the Pattern, Find Reprieve

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome back everybody to the Truth About Addiction. Today's guest is Jacob Wilson. He's an actor and a friend, and somebody who's sober, curious. He has a lot to share on both sides of the spectrum of addiction. What I mean by that is struggling with his own and struggling with the addiction of other people that he loves, which I'm sure so many of us can relate to. Lord knows I can. We touch on so many interesting topics in this conversation and I just love exploring the idea of addiction through a wider lens, the ways that it plays out in our everyday life. Let me tell you a little more about Jacob.

Speaker 1: 0:54

He has a BA in theater arts from California State University and has trained with master coaches Howard Fine, robert DiAvanzo and at Marjory Harbor Studio. He has also studied improvisation at LA Connection Comedy Theater. Jacob has appeared on A&E and Justice for the People with Judge Million. He has booked a myriad of short films, one of which, hannah, has swept wins at Hollywood film festivals. Jacob will also appear in an upcoming NDA feature film with Ryda for Life Films. He has booked commercial campaigns with brands such as Igloo and Allegiance Gold. In his free time Jacob enjoys volunteering in his community, helping others live a healthier lifestyle. Working out and experiencing live music and theater style. Working out and experiencing live music and theater. He is passionate about advocating for equality and desires to make the world a more kind and inclusive place. He is also a former magician and vocalist for an acclaimed metal band. Let's get started.

Speaker 2: 2:01

Welcome back everybody to the truth, the Truth About Addiction.

Speaker 1: 2:31

I'm really excited for this interview because, much like a lot of the interviews I've been doing lately, it's not a typical story of somebody who has a massive substance abuse problem hit rock bottom and peeled themselves up from that pit of despair and has lived sober experience.

Speaker 1: 2:48

And in an effort to really widen the lens on addiction, the different types, I'm bringing on more guests that might be in industries that are surrounded by it might have to really dig deep inside of themselves to unpack which path they're going to go down and how to stay focused in an industry such as the one we're going to get into, which is the entertainment industry no easy place.

Speaker 1: 3:26

I have Jacob Wilson here with me and he's not just one thing, he's many, he's an actor, he's also a vocalist, although he's not doing that right now, at the moment for heavy metal bands. And to throw in something unexpected, when you imagine someone singing in a metal band, he identifies as queer. So he's got a lot to share about that part of his life as well. And we're going to dive into not just life in a band, life in art and entertainment and the glamorized version that we see in the media and the magazines versus the reality and having to choose again and again the truer path, the one that's actually going to be meaningful, where you're making art that hopefully changes the world. So I'd like to welcome Jacob Hi.

Speaker 3: 4:28

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really stoked to be here and I'm just I'm so glad that we met through Ricky, like I, the second that we met and we started conversing, I felt such a strong soul connection with you. You were the one to use that exact term and it was just so strong right off the bat. Were the one to use that exact term and it was just so strong right off the bat from the things that we were talking about. So it's just crazy to me how, as I have become a more sober minded person and wanting to live a more sober lifestyle, how the universe, god, whatever you want to call it, how the universe has brought more sober minded and sober people into my life, you being one of them, and it's just. It blows my mind a bit. But yeah, here we are and I'm really, really happy to be here and grateful to know you and be here after the release of your freaking awesome book. Congratulations.

Speaker 1: 5:21

Thank you so much. Oh, it's such an exciting time. It's a really tough time in the world, but it's a really exciting time also, and that goes for so many things. We can go back to theaddling the tension of two very difficult things that are often opposite from one another at the same time. Yeah Right, on the one hand, for example, my book just came out. It's doing really well, and you know, on the outside, people who message me, sometimes on Instagram, who knew me from however many years ago, are like, oh my God, girl, you're blowing up.

Speaker 1: 6:09

The reality is, I don't care about any of that. I am so proud of what I have lived through and survived and found a way, because there were so many times that I almost died, could have died, died on a soul level, numbed out, even in recovery, and the fact that this particular recent grief spell that I've been in turned me toward my suffering and allowed me to birth new stuff into the world, such that I feel more aligned with my purpose and passion than I ever have before, and that is the gift. So, as we kind of roll into this, let's get a little bit of a backstory from you, if that's okay. Tell me a little bit about little Jacob. Where you grew up, did you always know you wanted to act and sing. How did that get going? And then you merge into that, discovering that you're queer. Yeah, and dot, dot, dot.

Speaker 3: 7:18

There's a lot of trauma around that and a lot of a lot of shit that I had to wrestle with and also struggles with addiction, which we'll get into. But yeah, so I am originally from Visalia, california. It's right in the middle of California between Fresno and Bakersfield, so it's a pretty small town, but not terribly small, but the people in the community really value the arts and that's something that I feel so grateful for, coming from a smaller town and also kind of trying to think of how to say this, just coming from a coming from a smaller town and an area where typically arts aren't as highly valued, and so I kind of just dove into things. I always loved to play as a kid. I love to be creative.

Speaker 3: 8:14

One of my very first memories, in fact, my mom. I feel really grateful to have a good relationship with my mom and it was hard for her as I came out, but she's really come around and I'm really really grateful for that. But we were just talking the other day because one of my first memories I was so young I don't know how I remember it so vividly was there was this Disney movie Babes in Toyland.

Speaker 1: 8:38

I love that movie.

Speaker 3: 8:39

Movie, musical, yes, and so the villain Barnaby, with the black top hat and the mustache. I was sick one day from preschool and so I stayed home and I begged my mom to put me in costume as Barnaby. I loved villains growing up which is so funny to me, ursula Barnaby, the evil queen from Snow White. I was obsessed with villains and so, yeah, I had my mom dress me up as Barnaby. She made a top hat out of construction paper and drew a little curly mustache on me from some sort of makeup that she had and I literally walked around the house all day in character as Barnaby, before I even knew what the concept of being in character was. And, yeah, I just remember that day so vividly. A lot of my childhood, you know, are just kind of especially early years, just little bits and pieces like that, but that day, that moment, I remember so clearly. And, yeah, I just grew up really immersed in the arts. There was a Tulare County Office of Education would do theater workshops and Enchanted Playhouse Theater Company, another sort of theater organization that did a lot of children's theater and workshops. I would do stuff with both of them and it just kind of spurred my love for the arts and for everything. And I remember as a kid going to my first audition for something. It was at the Enchanted Playhouse. I don't remember what it was for, but I didn't get it. And that was my first time as a child dealing with the feelings of rejection. And I think this is an industry especially in acting and music arts and entertainment in general, where you have so much rejection as you're first starting out. And so I learned at a very young age what that felt like. And I think this career and this industry is also it's not for everybody, right Like that rejection can really really break someone or it can make them want to work their ass off and become even better, become the best. And I remember in that moment as a kid kind of sitting in the sadness of not getting it, but then talking with my mom and I was like no, like I want to know, like what could I have done differently, how could I have been better? And so she sat down with me and she helped me write an email to whoever it was that was casting, the director or whatever, and just asking for feedback. And I remember getting that feedback and thinking, okay, how can I get better? And so I started signing up for more workshops and begging my mom to sign me up for more workshops at that point and, yeah, just started doing more workshops and then getting involved in plays and choir growing up. My first play was A Christmas Carol and I think that was fifth grade, and then I just started doing plays here and there and in high school I was really, really fortunate to work with an amazing drama teacher, mike Wilson won statewide awards and I think again, it just blows my mind that the level of productions we were putting on in high school and with such an amazing person and Mike was actually really key in me.

Speaker 3: 11:52

You know, kind of fast forwarding to high school and me starting to look at how I was living my life at that time and using drugs. My drug of choice specifically although I used other things at that time uh was marijuana, and so I would just get I, I would just get baked. I was baked 24, seven. Like I could not function. I could not eat uh, without being high. Like I. I felt like I needed it and I needed it to be creative, right, such a lie, uh, the things we tell ourselves as addicts. But yeah, I went down that route.

Speaker 1: 12:31

Can I ask you a question for a second? Yeah, so I'm wondering sitting in the seat you are now being much older and more self-aware when you think about your younger self and getting that early rejection how much of the way you bounced back was your natural disposition versus your mom's support? And the second part of that question is why do you think you were using marijuana so heavily? And I ask because my natural disposition is a perfectionist, so I historically not anymore handled rejection terribly because it just exacerbated the inner critic inside of me. Plus, I had an environment growing up where it was all about appearances and in my mother's best attempt to comfort me, she was so emotionally out of touch with herself that she often missed the places I was really hurting. How anxious I was that the voice inside my head was so lacerating to me and that's what I needed her help turning around and she missed it.

Speaker 1: 14:00

So I'm just wondering you know and also in hindsight it makes complete sense that I would want to anesthetize being inside my body when it was just one shame spiral after another.

Speaker 1: 14:12

So, if you were able to take that first rejection and just turn it around. What do you believe, was that from, and what kicked off the desire to numb out?

Speaker 3: 14:28

Yeah, yeah, great questions. Um, I think my natural kind of disposition, probably from the way that I was raised, is just to kind of you know, if you fall, like pick yourself up by our bootstraps, get up. You know, if you fall, like, pick yourself up by our bootstraps, get up, keep going, and sometimes at the expense of not taking the few seconds to rest and recuperate before I actually get back up. But I feel, yeah, I've always kind of been. I have memories being in elementary school and having my first crushes and just maybe getting rejected by that person and literally thinking as a kid, what was wrong with me? Thinking as a kid like, oh well, you're going to regret this down the road, like I'm going to be somebody and blow like these, this hard wiring in my head as a kid, which I mean it's kind of amazing, it's, it's, it's just wild. I always, I always, I always knew I wanted to do something big, even as a kid. And yeah, with that that first experience with rejection, I think a lot of it was just my natural sort of way that I've always been. I think that I've always kind of been that way because of the way I was raised and who I was raised by. But I do have a tendency to and I would agree I used to handle rejection terribly with. I kind of had the script in my mind of oh, if I'm rejected, then that means I'm not good enough Right, when it could mean that, like, I'm not good enough yet, or it could mean I'm not the, I'm not at the right place, or I'm not the right person for this specific thing right now. It doesn't mean that I won't be down the road, but, yeah, I before I was as self-aware as I am now. I didn't have the tools and intelligence to look at it through that lens, right, I just equated it with the rejection and that means I'm not enough. And that also opens up a whole other can of worms with just things that I experienced growing up. But I think before maybe we'll get into that, maybe we won't.

Speaker 3: 16:36

But the second part to your question what prompted me to start using growing up and just kind of going through puberty and also being raised, and even though it was a very loving household it was a very loving household, it was a very kind of I don't want to say conservative, because I'm friends with all kinds of people, but it was. It wasn't as open minded and I was taught you know marriages between a man and a woman didn't? Um, and I was taught you know marriage is between a man and a woman, yada, yada, you believe that that's cool? Um, and when I started to experience having feelings of same-sex attraction, I felt a lot of shame around that. Um, I felt like I wasn't normal, there was something wrong with me, and it was a very, very well-kept secret I didn't share or divulge with anybody because I was afraid of I also did really am, how is that going to change people's perception of me? Am I going to be, am I going to be liked, loved, good enough? And so I just kept it inside.

Speaker 3: 17:53

And the more and more into puberty I got and the more I was so innocent I didn't know what queerness or gay was growing up. But I think the more and more aware of it I became and the older I became and as puberty progressed, I knew I was different and I kind of labeled myself as bisexual for a while because I felt like it made well at least I'm kind of normal, right, um, it made it easier for me to digest and, um, but yeah, I mean holding in a dark secret like that, which it's not. Not necessarily that like the secret in itself is dark, but we think it is. And by holding, by repressing something rather than expressing something, it causes inner turmoil, right and it. That's that's when I think a lot of soul sickness, like you mentioned in your book, can happen. And yeah, I just started hanging out with the, the wrong group of people. I was always kind of a good student growing up, got you know straight A's and um, yeah, I remember hanging out with uh, two friends and took my first bong, hit and immediately kind of went into like a paranoid episode, probably because it was loss of control, which you also talk about in your book, the desire to control, and uh, yeah, just went into like kind of a panicky episode but then after that calmed down this, the high that I experienced I was hooked.

Speaker 3: 19:30

I always say when, when I'm talking about addiction, I really believe this everybody has their kryptonite, like everybody's bio, biochemically different, and so different substances affect people differently. And I think for me, I think that's why I haven't smoked since I was. I think I stopped when I was 19 or 20, 31 now, because I know that's my kryptonite. Like I, I would do anything and everything to. You know, as a teenager with not much money to figure out how I was going to get my next fucking gram of weed, I was going to get my next bag like sell shit that wasn't mine to sell. It was just a really, really dark period of my life and I realized that I think I was using substances to self-medicate and cope with things that were going on up here. I was also on a medication at the time called Accutane, so I had really bad back acne I still have scars. At the time called Accutane, so I had really bad back acne I still have scars and it cleared up acne.

Speaker 3: 20:32

But when it first came out, there was all sorts of like people killing themselves on this medication and deep, deep depression, and so I think that it was just a perfect storm of things, girl, like that depression brought on from the medication, with like coming to terms with my sexuality and just it was just this really, really deep dive bomb. And you know, like you talk about in your book, you have to kind of hit that low point in order to make a change. I remember being in high school at this point. You know I was so dependent. I was stoned 24, seven stone to do my homework, or else I couldn't feel like I wouldn't feel like I was stoned 24, seven stone to do my homework, or else I couldn't feel like I wouldn't feel like I could focus. Stone to interact stone to go to school. Bong rips 24 seven.

Speaker 3: 21:12

And I remember going to school that day and I was in the locker room and I just I hit that low point in the locker room. I was just like I'm out of control, I cannot do this anymore. Um, and I was just so angry with everything and myself that there's this locker of my locker in front of me and the locker had a like grids on it. It wasn't just solid and she kind of see through it and I just fucking, yeah, I'm just like punch the grids knuckle started bleeding and I went to my teacher that day and I just I just told her everything. I was like I'm really struggling, I need help, Like I need to stop using and her name was Mrs Collins, she was just the godsend. And she told me in that moment, which you talk about in your book, of how the idea of God means something different to everyone. Right, but she told me in that moment, sometimes you just need to let go and let God right, and that might be that thing outside of yourself. God could be the friends around you that are there to support you when you ask for help. Right, god could be an external source that you label or relate to. But yeah, at that moment and I was just like something's got to give I dropped out of school for a bit.

Speaker 3: 22:31

Teachers worked with my mom to kind of get me my homework and I just tried to heal. I did my best and stopped smoking, stopped using and things were going great and I booked the lead in a play. Um, my grandma came. My grandma was a huge reason why I got into the arts and and just she supported me so much through all of that darkness. And then, shortly after I graduated high school, she passed. And so I'm sure you know where the story is going being so young and the neural pathways that I had developed of how I dealt with pain. I just fell right back into it and I justified it in that moment of well, if I quit that time, then it's going to be even easier the second time the lies we tell ourselves.

Speaker 1: 23:30

And I need to. I need to pause because there's so much you're saying and then we're going to pick up because this is, it's all just so important. Yeah, when we got On the call, we were talking a little bit about the root of all of this, and I talk about it because I witnessed it not just in myself, but in losing my sister. I witnessed it not just in myself, but in losing my sister. The thing that we try to cover up in all different ways not just weed, in my case, cocaine or any substance you put in front of me, basically with Instagram, with likes, with clothing, with Netflix, with boyfriends and friendships is shame.

Speaker 3: 24:27

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 24:28

Right. So what I'm hearing you say is you had a ton of shame about your sexuality and who you would become, and you're pushing the truest part of you down because you feel ashamed of what it means about who you are and, in order to tolerate living in a body full of shame, you try to anesthetize. And the other part that's so important about this is that you said I'm so open. In my book I talk about the darkest stuff, because I think shame is the number one offender, because I think shame is the most corrosive thing that lives inside of us. I feel it is my job, having come out on the other side of so many bouts of shame, to speak to the dark places and shine a light on it, because there's been research on this. Shame thrives in the dark and anyone who's reading my book, who's listening to this podcast, if they feel a little bit less ashamed from something they've done because we've normalized their experience, then it's worth everything. It reminds me of a cockroach. You shut the lights off and they're everywhere. You turn the lights on and they scatter and they run. It is the same with shame. The other part of what you're saying is that on the one hand, you had this, what, what we say in recovery sometimes, moment of clarity you not from outside of you, from inside you, which is a big difference. We're like I'm done, I can't do this anymore. Right, punch your fist through the locker. You ask for help.

Speaker 1: 26:34

However, speaking about neural pathways and the science of real change, you didn't practice anything new in a way that set you up to succeed when the next devastating thing showed up, which is another reason why so many addicts relapse and die. Addicts relapse and die, or why so many people who don't have the type of addiction that will kill them, who are numbed out over being addicted to thinness, the beauty standard, productivity, martyrdom, why they just live that way until they die? Because they're not implementing a new set of practices that become so consistent and is so true to them that they can stick with it long enough to form new neural pathways so that when life shows up, because grief does not discriminate. You lost your grandmother. She was a critical person in your life. You weren't expecting that you were brought to your knees. Nobody's ready for loss, nobody. But you have a much better chance of making good choices when you've armed yourself with tools in a spiritual toolkit. Yeah, so then, let's go back to this moment. You fall right back into these old behaviors. What does that look like?

Speaker 3: 28:17

Even worse than the first time. And you know you hit the nail on the head with, yes, I stopped physically using, but I was still emotionally using and experiencing shame, right, like like we were talking about earlier, like you either express or you repress, and what you, when you repress, you lash out. And, yeah, that again the second time. I remember telling myself like, oh well, you already quit the first time, it's going to be even easier this time. In fact, it was even harder. Yeah, I don't, I don't remember exactly.

Speaker 3: 29:00

I can remember the day and I can remember kind of what I was doing. I was, I was trying to go to a medical marijuana dispensary to go get more weed and I I had hit a point of of I need, I'm feeling like I need to stop again. And I told my mom she was, of course, very grateful and happy that I wanted to quit and switch foot again. And we went to an urgent care at that time which, in hindsight, that was probably the biggest mistake in the last place I should have went to for psychiatric needs and it gave me this medication I can't remember what it was called, but it's like Diva Prolex or some shit, but I I took that and it was supposed to help kind of calm the nervous system and calm down the anxiety.

Speaker 3: 29:57

The exact opposite through the fucking roof, um, paranoid schizo, and I actually ended up being. Um, I was thinking all just kinds of like crazy things people are out to get me, yada, yada, yada. And um, I ended up being hospitalized and I remember going to the local hospital in Visalia, waking up, and still they medicated me. So I still kind of knew what was going on, but there was still those just kind of like everybody's out to get me thoughts. And then I remember going to sleep and the next thing I knew I had waken up and I was at a facility in Ventura still thinking like all these insane thoughts, people are out to get me. At that time that was when bath salts were all over the news, and so I was. I was convinced that the hospital blacked me out, took me to this facility in Ventura and that on the way there they had given me bath salts so that I blacked out and did a bunch of crazy things. And then it was all over on just crazy stuff. Girl, like I was not healthy.

Speaker 1: 31:15

Was that a side effect of the medication that the urgent care put you on?

Speaker 3: 31:20

I don't. I think so and I think.

Speaker 1: 31:23

I mean that sounds directly related to that. Yeah, it's so extreme that it almost doesn't make sense any other way.

Speaker 3: 31:30

Yeah, and when I tell people this story about, like, my experience, you know, stopping smoking weed, they're like what, um, I had also, I had also, I had also used uh, no, that was, that was in high school. I messed around with hallucinogens in high school too. The second time and that was kind of how I justified it in my head the second time I relapsed I was like, okay, well, I'm only going to smoke weed. But yeah, I think it was. I think it was a combination of the weed and also the medication that I was put on by someone who probably didn't really know what they were doing working in an urgent care Like they're not, their specialty is not dealing with matters of the mind and um, it just really really screwed me up.

Speaker 3: 32:15

But I'm grateful for that experience because when I went down there I I was, um, raised extremely Christian, uh, slash Mormon and um, I remember when I went down to that facility, I roomed with a Satanist and it was my first kind of experience of like, yeah, you know what this is, what the real world is like outside of your bubble, like people think and behave and have different beliefs than you do, and like we gotta fucking love each other still and coexist, because the world isn't as binary as you were taught.

Speaker 3: 32:52

And yeah, I, I remember being in that facility and I'm really grateful for those weeks because it I do feel it added a lot of tools to my toolbox of. Everything was very structured, but we would have moments of kind of group counseling or therapy where we talked about how to deal with emotions and how we choose to react to things. And I think in that moment at that facility, that was sort of my first exposure to like, oh wait, there's other ways to deal with these things I've been experiencing that are healthier. Maybe I should look that route, because the way I've been doing things on my own sure as hell has not been working for me. So yeah, like I told you, there is a lot to the story that we didn't exactly talk about beforehand, but we're talking about it now.

Speaker 1: 33:46

So so I, I'm so curious. You know, from that moment you finally get introduced to a healthy set of tools, you still very much want to be an actor and a musician, and so how did you start taking some of those tools with you back into that type of industry?

Speaker 3: 34:06

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 34:06

What has that looked like since then?

Speaker 3: 34:10

Lots of trial and error, lots of ups and downs when I got out of that facility, like I said, I still haven't smoked in many, many years and I never will just because I know if I, if I touch that, I will die, like physically or spiritually, I will die, um, and I know that sounds dramatic over marijuana, but it's my truth. So, uh, when I got out, I was, you know, 20 or 21 and I of course started, you know, drinking experiment. It was just the next thing, right, and I never smoked. I, like you, I have insane willpower so I could go and be around my friends who were smoking, not changing my environment or even attempting to change my environment. I would go and hang around those people and I could choose to, to not smoke, and I never did, but I would just like drink with them instead. And you know, at first that was very manageable for me. It was all fun and games. And then, you know, there comes a point when it's not. And just being in different bands from my first band was when I was 16. And then took a break from that. The next band I had stepped into when I was in, when I was like 20, 21. And I did music from 21 to about 25.

Speaker 3: 35:41

And yeah, the, the not really drugs, but the, the sex drugs, rock and roll lifestyle, just I really kind of let it begin to consume me. Um, and I would, I would drink like crazy. I, you know, I think I think society and and the media kind of glamorizes, not kind of it glamorizes, poisoning our bodies, you know. And so I just I thought it was cool to party and drink and, you know, funny to get drunk and wake up and not remember what you did the night before and your friends are telling you and we're all laughing and there is a time or at least maybe not for, maybe not in everybody's experience, but in my experience there was a time in my early twenties where it was fun and it was fun conversations. And then, as you grow older and wiser, there in my experience there began to be times of like wait, I did what, like I said what, and other people around me laughing or laughing, and I'm maybe joining in the laughter, but I'm like ashamed and embarrassed deep down inside and yeah, I would drink to excess, I would black out and just live recklessly, spend money recklessly, and it wasn't until I was in a relationship at the time and we were both problem drinkers.

Speaker 3: 37:15

He was especially a problem drinker and things just got really, really bad with the drinking on both of our ends, but especially on his end. It was to the point of like he would hurt himself, he would lose things, and it was even as somebody who was still engaged somewhat in that behavior. It became too much for me, um, and at that time this person's mom, uh, was also passing away from a neurodegenerative disease and I felt if I left this person it would send him spiraling down even more. And so I chose to stay with him for as long as I could out of that belief, until it got to a point to where I couldn't handle it. I broke off that that relationship.

Speaker 3: 38:11

It was really hard, but that was around when I was 25, 24, 25. And that was the beginning of me realizing that how I have been living my life from 20 to 25 is not doing good things for me. It's not how I want to live anymore, and if I want my life to look differently, I need to start behaving differently. And so, from 25 to 30, it was just kind of this gradual shift of moving away from going out as much and moving away from being around people who drink to excess, because it's just not how I wanted to live anymore.

Speaker 3: 38:50

But I had to hit that low point of that loss of that relationship in order to really realize, like again you know we see a common common thread here hitting those low points to where it's like the way I'm doing things isn't working. I need to change. And I think that's an important thing too, because we as human beings, we run away from change. We don't want to change. It's scary, right. We want to run towards what's comfortable and away from what's uncomfortable. And in order to make a change in our lives, the consequences of staying the same has to be greater than the fear of making that change, or else we're not going to do it, we won't stick with it. And yeah, it was just kind of a slow progression away from being around people, changing my environment, changing. You know I invested a lot of time and financial resources into health and mindset, coaching, um, and it was a slow process again, a lot of ups and downs and uh, it's been, it's been a journey.

Speaker 1: 40:03

So what about the 12 steps?

Speaker 3: 40:11

a journey. So what about the 12 steps? Did you ever end up in a meeting so? Funny enough, I have a very, very close friend. Her name's Jamie Howard. She's much older than me. She's like I call her my second mom. She's 28 years.

Speaker 3: 40:21

Forgive me, jamie, if I'm wrong with the year, but she's been sober for a very, very large chunk of time and she, single handedly I hope you watch this, jamie but she, single handedly, she has been such a guardian angel to me through so many years. She was there through you know all that mess from. I think we met when I was 19, 20, and we still stay in touch. We still hang out 19, 20, and we still stay in touch. We still hang out, um, but her just kind of, you know, being who she was and having that presence in my life and um, not coming, not ever coming from a place of judgment or condemnation, um, but a place of, of care and love. And, um, she, she kind of you know, would have discussions with me about sobriety and the steps. I've never, I've never been to a meeting. I've never really read through the 12 steps until I started reading your book. I mean, I was familiar with them at you know the serenity prayer and and the fundamentals of them because of Jamie.

Speaker 3: 41:27

But, um, she has been a huge part of my life and my decision to move away from drinking, and she was arguably my number one fan when I was doing music and just beyond a fan friend, just I feel not in like a way, but I feel she's almost a soulmate, like we just vibe so much and love each other so much. And, yeah, she really saw me through so many of my lows and she told me something that really stuck with me and in my decision to live a more sober lifestyle was I would have conversations with her of like, well, I'm not an alcoholic because I don't drink every day. I don't need to drink in order to function, like I used weed in order to function. And she said something that always stuck with me and I've always come back to it's not how often you drink, it's what happens when you do drink. It's what happens when you do drink.

Speaker 3: 42:31

And for me, that was my case of like I didn't drink every day. I know and have known people who you know wake up at 10am and crack open a drink and that's how they live their life. But that wasn't me, you know, but it was when I did choose to drink. There was no, there was no moderation, it was just kind of balls to the wall binging um and my if you. It's kind of touchy, so let me give us have a second here. My last relationship. I knew that I wanted to date someone who didn't value going out to the clubs as much, who didn't want to go out and drink. They wanted to do other things you know, physical things.

Speaker 3: 43:33

You know, go for a hike, go camping. I feel like so much of you know talking about queerness in the LGBT community specifically. So much of peter pan syndrome, of these grown ass people who don't, who don't want to grow up, these grown ass men who who want to live in neverland for forever, and, um, I knew that I kind of I wanted to move away from the nightlife, I wanted to move away from the party, and, um, I met someone who was very sober minded and we really hit it off and things were going great and they had always told me that they had had issues with drinking in the past and they were also really critical on themselves sometimes and so I was just like, well, maybe, maybe they're just being hard on themselves, you know, um, but I think when someone tells us they have a problem with something, we need to believe them and we need to. That situation did end up with that person relapsing and the relationship just kind of spiraled out of control from there and I had another low in my life. Pretty much all of my previous relationships, minus maybe one, I was the one to cut ties. This person cut ties with me and I love this person so much. We still keep in touch, we're on great terms, I care about them deeply. But you know, this is this is my story, so I have to share it and share it.

Speaker 3: 45:32

And, um, they cut ties with me and I kind of hit a low point of I I still wasn't necessarily again going out all the time, but when I was drinking I was drinking to excess and sometimes other things became involved and I hit a point where I was self-aware enough to know I was at a going away party for a friend. The breakup was really really fresh and, um, I didn't want to go, I was really really depressed, but uh, I felt like I was kind of dragged there. So I showed up and, of course, with it being a going away party, everybody's handing me, everybody's handing me shots, everybody's handing me drinks. And I'll never forget that night, because I ended up going home, called my friend on the way home and I just needed a mirror, I needed somebody to talk to. And you know, you've heard of the expression cry yourself to sleep. I had heard of it and it wasn't something that I'd ever experienced until that night. But I had purchased a tall can on the way home and I was going to drink it that night, but I was already kind of buzzed, so I just put it in my fridge and that night I just I sat in my room and I played really sad music and I just cried myself to sleep and I I I'd never experienced that before.

Speaker 3: 46:55

And I woke up the next day and, because of the tools that I've kind of added to my toolbox through the year, years, um, I was smart enough to know like, okay, the way that you're dealing with this right now is not going to do anything productive. And again, I didn't necessarily feel like I had a problem drinking anymore at that point, like things had been pretty tamed out. But I was self-aware enough to know like, even if you're drinking casually, with where you're at emotionally right now, you are numbing feelings that you need to feel in order to move through this. And by numbing these feelings you're repressing them to where you're. It's going to literally take you longer to heal from this because you're not dealing with the shit.

Speaker 3: 47:48

And so that morning I woke up, of course mildly hung over, and I went to the fridge, no-transcript to think I'm like this crazy, you know alcoholic, who has these problems, and I just, I again self-aware enough to learn to of myself and so film the video on my phone and I was just really honest of, like you know, I'm going through some really tough times. I never really talked about the breakup publicly because I'm just kind of one to keep my own, my personal life, separate from my, my career, you know, and I was just like you know I'm going through some really dark times right now and I realized the way that I've been living and my relationship with alcohol isn't serving me currently. And I cracked open the beer and I dumped it down the sink and I was just like I'm done. Like I'm done. I don't know if this is a forever thing, but it's definitely a for now thing and I can't, I can't be drinking right now. I have to focus on myself and my groundedness. And I posted it and that was such a huge step for me.

Speaker 3: 49:16

I went without drinking for six months at that point and got back into therapy, read tons of books and just really went into like a cocoon period of taking care of myself and my own needs and growing and having really honest conversations with my therapist about everything and what was going on, and she shared something with me that was really impactful during that period of my life and that was I'm normally such a positive person of light and joy, and it's something that I pride myself on, like I want to be positive. I want to be a positive person of light and joy and it's something that I pride myself on, like I want to be positive. I want to be a positive person because the world can feel like such a negative place and I feel like it's part of my mission, of what I was sent here to do. My life mission is and I've written this out literally to make the world a more kind and inclusive place.

Speaker 3: 50:27

No-transcript you've given them throughout the years. What would that look like? And I was just like all right, layla, that's her name. It's like all right, layla, you're right. So I just started doing that on social media and in conversations with my friends, just being honest about where I was at and that it was a pretty place and I feel like that's so important on social media because we only see

Speaker 3: 50:53

that real of people's lives, you know, and it's so easy to get caught up in the comparison game. But yeah, I've, I've, I've started kind of reintroducing alcohol socially at special events, and I feel I've done so successfully To this point. I realized there may, there may come a point when I hit a very intense emotional period of my life, some some form of loss, where I decide that I want to stop drinking again and that may be, it may be a forever thing. I think for me the thing and I'm sure you can relate to this is like do I feel as if I'm in control or as an addiction in control? Is something outside of me in control? And it's been a long journey of, again, lots of trial and error and ups and downs, and there may come a point in my life where I say, know, fuck this, I want to be completely sober, um, but I feel through it's been a school of hard knocks. But with the things that I've experienced and the things that I've been through, um, I have kind of rewired my relationship to drinking and how I used to drink in my early 20s to how I, you know, occasionally drink now. But yeah, it's just, addiction is such a monster and it does not discriminate Right, discriminate right.

Speaker 3: 52:30

And I think it's so important to to have these conversations. Whether it you know, people think that, oh, you know, I need to have this crazy extreme story in order to help people like no, you know, normal, not normal. But a lot of people struggle with using substances, whether it be smoking marijuana, whether it be drinking, whether it be popping pills that are legal or illegal. A lot of people struggle with those things and it's not talked about. There's a lot of shame around it, and I think, in order for people to really heal and for our society to change in the ways that a lot of people are wanting it to change, we need to have these conversations, and I think sober mindedness and sober curiosity is becoming more and more popular nowadays, more than ever, I've noticed recently, and I think that's such a great thing, because I think there's a lot of people out there who are self-medicating pain and shame, and it's heartbreaking and I hope that you know sharing my story, even though it looks a lot different than yours.

Speaker 3: 53:36

I hope that you know someone can hear this and it can bring them some sense of like. You know I'm not alone. There's hope on the other side and and just you, just you know to try. I live my life trying to be 1% better every day. Right, if we just can be 1% better every day, make those micro changes. They're going to produce macro results.

Speaker 3: 54:00

We're going to be so so far ahead at the end of the game.

Speaker 1: 54:05

I want to say something that you said a little while back and add something to it. Yeah, the idea of which I did constantly. I othered myself to death when I was trying to get sober. You know, I don't drink like you. I don't drink every day, I'm not a blackout. You know, this is all the stuff. I'm not, and this is why I'm exempt from this thing called addiction. I just have this little problem, but I can control everything else really well. Yeah, and it's not just you don't have to drink every day, it's what happens when you do.

Speaker 1: 54:49

I'll take it a step further. It's you don't have to insert any word. You want Drink, use, numb out, using any number of tactics every day. It's why you're doing it and the way that you feel when you do it, especially in the aftermath. Yeah, you know somebody who doesn't have a strained relationship with substance abuse just does it, and then, when they feel like stopping, they totally stop and they don't carry around a sense of shame. They're not at least consciously trying to repress some sort of heavy emotion that they really don't feel like facing. It's just not even on their radar. So anyone listening I mean, I cannot tell you how many people I still meet today, in 2024, and this was my story too who don't excavate their pain and their shame because they're going outside of themselves and using some sort of external template as a gauge for how bad it is, instead of going inside of themselves and saying why am I doing what I'm doing? Because if you actually went inward and trusted what you heard, even if you're not ready to stop, that's the place you start. That's the place where real change can take place. If we are measuring how bad our addiction is by anything outside of us, we are in trouble because everything outside of us is selling us something, because we're not enough. We have to know inside something's up with me. You may not be ready to face it, that's okay. A great starting point is just telling someone you trust something's up with me. I am struggling. That is a massive step forward, and the thing about doing that is when we stop ignoring our intuitive voice and we actually honor the call, even in a small way.

Speaker 1: 57:36

And I'll bring in this tiny piece of a really long story. After I lost my dad, I was well into my recovery. I was a decade sober, running from the grief, not with drugs and alcohol, but with food and body, obsessively controlling everything I put into my body and how much I exercised. 10 months into what I now look back and consider a raging eating disorder, I had a moment of clarity where my intuition was like why are you punishing me? Because I had a lot of regret about the way I showed up as a daughter before he died, especially as a sober daughter who should know better, who should be able to accept her loved ones for who they are, and all that which I had, of course, practiced and tried to do. But it was very difficult with the role he played in my family, and so I had this moment of clarity and it was only a start. I started to try and practice forgiving myself for whatever unfinished business him and I had. But it took a lot longer after I was going to put all that down and really lean into the healing.

Speaker 1: 59:00

So I say that to normalize the experience for the listener. It doesn't have to be like we said at the beginning of the conversation it's not binary. It doesn't have to be like we said at the beginning of the conversation, it's not binary. Most people with issues like this don't just stop forever. We stop, we start, we stop, we start, we stop. We pick something else up that looks different, that isn't, as quote unquote, dangerous.

Speaker 1: 59:33

I've had a thousand behavioral relapses in sobriety. I'm lucky in a way that I know if I relapse with substance I'm dead. I'm super clear on that. But it hasn't stopped me from a thousand emotional relapses. It hasn't stopped me. So I now know inside of me what it feels like to be in an emotional relapse, and the beauty of having some time sober is that I don't want to stay in that place for too long. So I'll have to call myself out. I'll have to call a trusted friend. I'll have to book a therapy session. Make it a weekly thing until I'm climbing out of that pit, but thank God I don't have to let it get as bad as it used to be or as bad as somebody else's version of bad.

Speaker 3: 1:00:37

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:00:37

Right, so just some really important touch points that you mentioned today and I have no doubt, I think it's so fascinating the journey you shared and have been on, and the reintroduction of alcohol and what that might look like, because we don't know, right, I mean, I don't know. I don't know if tomorrow I'm still going to be sober. It's what it's really a just for today thing, and there's definitely a difference between problem drinking and problem using and addiction. Yeah, and the hope and prayer for anybody is that we don't die trying to figure that out. You know, because a lot of people who are addicted to really heavy things die before they get to a place where they're like oh.

Speaker 1: 1:01:35

I needed way more tools in the toolkit and I needed to practice them fiercely and regularly until they were woven into the fabric of who I am and how I live. They don't make it to that place. They don't make it to that place. So I think it's really important that you're sort of at a jumping off point, and it'll be interesting even at the end of the year, you know, six months from now for us to check in and see how it's going.

Speaker 3: 1:02:07

Yeah, yeah, and my mom always says, but for the grace of God, go I. And that's like. You know, that's what I think and you know, one day at a time, because there has been periods in my my story where I look back at some of the things I've done and the people I was around and I'm like, yeah, I could have died, I could not be here and I'm thankful that I still am and to be, to be learning and growing. I think you know, a huge thing that you just shared and we're wrapping up here is, I think, why is the most powerful question we can ask ourselves as human beings, why we're doing something, why we want to do something, why something's important to us? Why is the most powerful question we can ask ourselves?

Speaker 3: 1:02:49

And you know, I think for me, for the times that I maybe do choose to have a drink, it's, it is okay why? Why? Why do I want to drink right now? Is it from a place of, like, socializing and enjoying company? Or, if I'm going to be really honest with myself, is it because I'm feeling something that's uncomfy, that I don't want to feel? And I think we have to, we have to have those difficult conversations and most people don't, because it's easier to not have them. It's easier to just do the behavior and stay stuck in the cycle until you hit that point where something's got to give, something's got to change.

Speaker 1: 1:03:26

And, to be fair, we are conditioned from the beginning that it's normal.

Speaker 3: 1:03:33

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:03:34

So we literally don't even think to question why.

Speaker 3: 1:03:39

Yeah, especially in the queer community.

Speaker 1: 1:03:41

Yep, yes, and the beautiful thing about this time in the world although the pendulum can swing either way right, it can be really extreme, but a lot more people are awake and aware and asking these questions and pushing back on these cultural concepts where you're like, wait a second, why is this something I'm not questioning?

Speaker 4: 1:04:12

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:04:13

Why am I not asking myself why I have been taught to believe that this is what you do, that you don't ask why? The question people asked when I was growing up is why aren't you drinking? Yeah, and they still do. Right Now, I wear my sobriety on my sleeve. I'm so proud of it and I'm so confident that it scares the people who are drinking right. They don't push anymore because I'm standing firmly in my square with my chest puffed up.

Speaker 2: 1:04:43

Yep.

Speaker 1: 1:04:45

So it's really a poignant and timely question to say why am I doing what I'm doing? And, by the way, you might have no idea, but that's a good starting point because we should. We should be curious about learning the answer to that question through the help and guidance of trusted friends, experienced people who've lived through more things than we have a therapist. There's a number of places, so many great self-help books. We should be curious and open-minded about the why. Absolutely, because that is how we change the direction of the life we're living.

Speaker 3: 1:05:29

Yeah, motivation to do the difficult things. Always going to come and go, but it's the why that stays right.

Speaker 1: 1:05:38

It was so nice to talk to you.

Speaker 3: 1:05:40

It was really nice talking to you. I know we're a little over time.

Speaker 1: 1:05:43

That's okay, I think it was wonderful.

Speaker 3: 1:05:45

Yeah, it's been really really great. It's kind of funny because I had kind of laid out an outline of like things that might come up and I had also known like OK, it's good to have this.

Speaker 3: 1:05:55

But, like, at the end of the day, you just got to kind of throw it to the wind and whatever comes up comes up and as long as it's honest and from the heart, like that's, no fucking outline can give you honesty and integrity and transparency and vulnerability, like a connection can. So thank you for having this conversation with me.

Speaker 1: 1:06:14

Oh, you're welcome and I love that so much because I had to learn that in recovery. Every time I would share and the script I was trying to write in my head about how I was going to say, what I was going to say and when.

Speaker 3: 1:06:28

I remember the script about that. You were wrote about in like chapter one or chapter two, the writing exam.

Speaker 4: 1:06:35

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:06:35

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:06:36

Yeah, and you know, the other night I spoke on a, on a stage in front of a lot of people, and I was going back and forth a little bit, do I? How much do I prepare for this? How much do I prepare for this? And I just kept going back to you don't really need to. You need to have the arc of the story, the few things you know you want to get to in a loose framework.

Speaker 3: 1:07:03

Yep.

Speaker 1: 1:07:04

And then you need to just let your heart speak.

Speaker 3: 1:07:08

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:07:09

And that is the most powerful thing and is also what we are culturally the most starved of right now. So I'm so glad you didn't follow a script and it's been an honor and a privilege to get to know you more.

Speaker 3: 1:07:23

Yes, likewise I look forward to finishing your book. Everybody go buy her book, because what I've read so far is amazing.

Speaker 1: 1:07:29

Oh, my God, so exciting. I actually I haven't done this yet because the book hasn't been out, but I'm officially now putting a link in the bio section of all of my episodes so that people can enter a book giveaway.

Speaker 3: 1:07:45

Amazing.

Speaker 1: 1:07:46

Yeah. So yeah, go and fill that out. It's super quick and easy and if you're in the first 10, you get a free signed copy. And also, can you please, Jacob, tell everybody where they can find you and follow you and stay in touch with you.

Speaker 3: 1:07:59

Yes, great question. So my main website is jacobkwilsoncom Jacob J-A-C-O-B-K-W-I-L-S-O-Ncom. All my stuff's pretty much linked there. I'm most active on Instagram, same thing at Jacob K Wilson and, yeah, those are the best two ways to connect with me. And again, thank you for having me on here to share my story and to talk with you. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 1:08:26

You're amazing.

Speaker 3: 1:08:28

You're amazing. Stop. Okay, let's please stay in touch. Yes, please, please. I would love to get coffee or something soon. Oh, that'd be so nice and your events coming up at. On on on das on das right there's an event on june 30th.

Speaker 1: 1:08:48

Is that that's not what you're talking about, is it?

Speaker 3: 1:08:50

I think you're I'm trying to remember. Is it Kelly PR, your PR specialist?

Speaker 1: 1:08:58

Mm-mm. Michaela.

Speaker 3: 1:09:04

I met her at Barnes Noble's.

Speaker 1: 1:09:06

Lauren.

Speaker 3: 1:09:07

Lauren, yes, she was telling me about something at Ondaz, or Ondaz coming out the Aster Aster maybe. Yeah, yes, yes, she was telling me about something at. Ondas, or Ondas the Aster, aster maybe yes.

Speaker 1: 1:09:15

Yeah, so that I'm definitely going to let you know about that. That's going to be a big, a big one, uh, and it's on June 30th. It's on a Sunday, it's from one to 4 PM, so it's kind of cool Like Sunday afternoon, uh, and I'll be speaking, I'll sing a little bit and then we'll go on the roof and hang out. It's really beautiful and, uh, we're working on the flyer right now, so Okay, cool, I have my, my nephew's, uh, son's birthday party that day.

Speaker 3: 1:09:44

I just I know, so I'm probably going to miss that, but I know you're super, super busy, but let's try to find coffee or something.

Speaker 1: 1:09:52

We'll find the time yeah, I would love that so thank you so much, samantha you're welcome, jacob. Have a good day be blessed bye to you bye.

Speaker 2: 1:10:11

Waking up. I hear the desperation call. I turn my back and hit my head against the wall To meet a crucifix. To take me to my knees, whipping my mistakes. To jump over the grief. Breaking the circuit, making it worth it. Oh, sick and tired of the voice inside my head Never good enough. It's leaving me for dead. But perfection's just a game of make-believe. Hey, gotta break the pattern, find a new reprieve. Breaking the circuit.

Speaker 4: 1:10:59

Making it worth it. Oh, hide and break to make a change. Hide and dig bigger than my pain. There's no deep inside. I gotta learn to fight.

Speaker 2: 1:11:22

I can be brave and afraid at the same time. Practice self-compassion, start to calm my mind, taking tiny steps to loving all of me. Just the process, cause it's gonna set me free, breaking the circuit.

Speaker 4: 1:11:44

Making it worth it. Oh, I am ready to make a change. I am bigger than my pain. There's no deep inside. I got the the life. Gotta gotta gotta break it or fake it till we make it. Gotta gotta gotta break it. Come on, one, two, three. I am ready to make a change. I am bigger than my pain. There's no deep inside. I got left alive, I am, I am, I am. I am bigger than my pain. There's no deep inside. I got the the life.