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The Truth About Addiction
Dr. Samantha Harte is a speaker, best selling author, coach and sober mom of two. She is here to tell the truth about her life, which requires telling the truth about her addiction: how it presents, how it manifests, and how it shows up again and again in her recovery. This podcast is one giant deep dive into the truth about ALL TYPES OF addiction (and living sober) to dispel the myths, expose the truths, and create a community experience of worthiness, understanding and compassion.
If you are a mompreneur and are looking for a community of like-minded women who are breaking all cycles of dysfunction and thriving in business, family, body image and spiritual well-being, join the waitlist below!
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The Truth About Addiction
Guiding Loved Ones Through Addiction: Insights and Strategies with Dr. Brian Licuanan
How do you guide a loved one resisting treatment for addiction? In this emotionally charged episode, we sit down with Dr. Brian Licuanan, a seasoned psychologist skilled in addressing insomnia, family crises, and substance abuse. Dr. Licuanan shares invaluable insights from his book, "How to Get a Resisting Loved One into Treatment," revealing practical strategies for families battling the complexities of addiction. Throughout our discussion, Dr. Brian recounts his journey into social media advocacy, striking a delicate balance between digital engagement and real-world connections.
We tackle the heart-wrenching reality of addiction's impact on families, featuring touching stories and professional wisdom. One poignant narrative highlights a person's 15-year recovery journey and the profound grief of losing a sister to overdose. Dr. Brian illuminates the fine line between enabling and supporting loved ones, emphasizing assertive love and the importance of setting boundaries. This episode also delves into the severe consequences of untreated addiction, underscoring the necessity of family involvement in recovery and the critical role of hope and commitment.
We wrap up by discussing the transformational power of converting personal pain into advocacy and hope. Dr. Brian passionately talks about turning grief into a mission to help others, offering a modern perspective on recovery and resilience. This episode is a powerful resource for anyone grappling with addiction in their family, providing not just insights but also deeply impactful stories that resonate and heal. Don't miss out on this enlightening conversation with Dr. Brian Licuanan, offering a beacon of hope for families navigating the turbulent waters of addiction.
How to find Dr. Brian
drbrianlicuanan.com
IG: @drlicuanan
TT: @drlicuanan
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Welcome back everybody to the Truth About Addiction. Today's episode I'm not going to lie is a tough one. Actually, it was tougher for me than I anticipated and also than the guest I had on anticipated, and you'll know why once you dive in. But this man found me on Instagram and he also has a book and he thought we might have a really cool conversation. And even though it was a tough one, it's a really important one when it comes to the world of addiction and how deeply rooted addiction is in the family unit.
Speaker 1:Dr Brian Laquanen is an author, speaker and board-certified psychologist practicing in Southern California. He specializes in insomnia and family crisis interventions, as well as has extensive experience working with highly acute clients struggling with substance abuse disorders and mental health conditions. Dr Laquanen is passionate about educating the public on mental health and substance addiction, as he has appeared on the Doctor Show on CBS, dr Drew Midday Live, good Day LA, along with several podcasts, and has authored several articles. Additionally, his book how to Get a Resisting Loved One into Treatment a step-by-step guide for mental health and or addiction crisis is a strategy guide to help family members with loved ones refusing help or treatment Last, in order to maintain a sound mind and body.
Speaker 2:He trains and actively competes in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
Speaker 1:Here we go. Welcome back everybody to the Truth About Addiction. I am so excited about this conversation because this man found me and, based on his nature of work in the world which you'll find out about in a minute felt called to come on here and have a conversation. And, besides wanting to dive into his brain and his background and how he ended up doing the work in the world that he's doing, I personally have so many questions. So I'm so excited for you guys to meet Dr Brian Laquanen.
Speaker 1:And he is a doctor of psychology, that's right, and I always joke that in another life I was a psychologist. So I think one of my most favorite things is to have really authentic, honest conversations that ultimately get to the root of our heartache, which really stems way deep in our psyche. And this man has a book, like I have a book, and it's called how to Get your Resisting Loved One Into Treatment. If that's not a title that people who are suffering in the family dynamic of addiction aren't attracted to, I don't know what is. So, Dr Brian, I'm so glad to have you here. Thank you for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 4:Thank you, dr Samantha as well. Thank you so much for having me and you're absolutely right, I found you. I'm very new to social media as of just a few months ago and I finally embarked upon it, as recommended, of course, with the services in the book. My consultant my book consultant said hey, you need to get on some social media, and I did and it's been wonderful, reconnecting with people from long past high school, college friends, meeting new people, and that's how I came across you is.
Speaker 4:I was scrolling through and your video just popped up and I was immediately drawn to you because of your energy. You know you're working out. I'm a big workout person. I think it was one of your workout videos. So I was like, wow, that is really cool. And then the stuff that you do, the messages you send out there I was really drawn to that and so I did reach out to you. I direct messaged you and I said, hey, I love what you do. I'd be more than willing to talk to you, chat with you, come on your podcast, whatever else, because I'm really big in collaboration and teaming up, especially in this arena, where getting the message out there for people struggling with mental health or substance addictions is really huge, and when we can team up and provide knowledge out there and spread awareness, I think it's a really huge thing out there and I'd love to take advantage of it. So thank you very much for having me come on here.
Speaker 1:You are so welcome. It makes me really happy that you stumbled upon my page and it's really an interesting thing, living a spiritual life and living in a highly digital age digital age and I have to frequently remind myself of a couple of things when it comes to social media, because my work in the world probably much like yours is to cast the widest net possible on who I can help. Social media is unbelievable. For that reason, it's an amazing tool and it can be a little bit soul crushing Talk about compare and despair, talk about dopamine addiction. So when I go on there, I really try to be mindful.
Speaker 1:Why am I on here right now? Am I posting something? Because if I am, it has to provide value to the person on the other side of the screen who I'm trying to help, and I'm not going to spend more than 10 minutes doing it. Or am I going on to respond and engage with that potential customer who's writing a comment on what I posted? Because somebody who has a big following said when you don't respond to someone who's written to you on social media, it's like getting a gift and not saying thank you, and if you're using it to build your brand, you have to spend some time and then I need to get off and live in the real world, you know, and be present for my life, so it's very tricky.
Speaker 4:Well, it's funny. You say that the reason I'm laughing is as, being fairly new to social media is, every time someone liked my video, I would direct message them and say thank you for liking my video. And people would respond thank you. A heart emoji.
Speaker 4:And because that's just my natural inclination and you're absolutely correct, when someone reaches out to you and takes the time and tells you that, hey, what you shared with me was important, I want to return that importance, as well as that recognition and acknowledgement. And so I was laughing because some of my friends or people I know who have been in social media for a long time, I said they're wondering. I don't know how long you can keep that up, especially if hundreds of people are liking your videos. But right now I love doing that Because, like I said, there's nothing more acknowledging when you put something out there important information and someone says, hey, that really helped me, that really resonated with me, and I'm recognizing yeah, hey, thank you for recognizing that. And so I'm going to keep doing it. So keep if you like it, trust me, I will respond to you directly and I have no intentions of stopping that, at least anytime soon.
Speaker 1:So I love that. So I really want to know, before we dive into current day and your book and all the questions I have about that, a little bit about your backstory. Who was Little Brian?
Speaker 4:Well, little Brian was born in Ohio. Actually, I was born in Ohio, I'm a Filipino, I'm Filipino and my family I'm in the middle of three children and my parents came from the Philippines, and I was born and raised in Ohio and moved out to California and throughout my life right, you know, I have family in the helping professions and the health services arena Grew up in a place of very humbly and gratefully of a very nurturing environment, and also engaged and focused on bettering ourselves through education and competitiveness with sports, and so moved out to California, went to high school, college, graduate school. What was interesting about my story that I actually write about up front to help connect with my readers is kind of the pathway of my life. It was not direct in any way.
Speaker 4:For most of my 20s I did not know what I wanted to do in life and I was navigating these waters of what do I want, what are my passions?
Speaker 4:While all my friends were graduating and having families, I was still an undergrad for almost seven years and tried to go another graduate program too.
Speaker 4:It didn't work out and finally I stumbled upon a field that I sort of knew and some people had told me that I should pursue and that was in the psychology arena of helping people, and so it's just one of those things I tell people find your career, find what you are passionate about, skill that in what's in line with your values, and it's really true If you find that it's one of the most liberating feelings that you can have. And so currently, as a psychologist practicing out of California, I work through teletherapy, private practice, really helping families strategize to get the resisting loved ones to help. Through the National Alliance on Mental Illness. For the almost 15 years I facilitate a support group helping families educate themselves and instilling hope, and I love giving talks and podcasts and, of course, the book that I wrote to hopefully broaden that message through, like I said, articles, podcasts, interviews and collaborations like this. So that's a little bit about who I am. Yeah, it's still the current time.
Speaker 1:Well, first of all, let me just say that that is so incredibly relatable and I think about that all the time. When we are so young and, yes, literally young, culturally considered young, late teenager, early 20s, but also, on a brain level, so psychologically immature, we are somehow being asked to figure out what we want to do for the rest of our lives. So no wonder it took you a long time. And I relate to that because what I wanted to do was something in the entertainment industry, but I was really being guided by my mother, whose word in my house was equivalent to God, so anything she said landed in my nervous system in a way where I was like I better do this or else, or else I'm not safe and I'm not in close proximity to the person who cares about me the most. And that was go get your degree. But since I wanted to be an artist, it was like we'll get my degree in what? So for me?
Speaker 1:I had a similar journey. I got a degree in communications after going to two different colleges and taking a year off, and then I was like this communications after going to two different colleges and taking a year off, and then I was like this isn't going to cut it, because I'm not going to be a marketing expert or in advertising and sit behind a desk from nine to five. So now what? And somebody had planted a seed about physical therapy and I thought, well, that kind of fits a lot of parts of who I am, checks a lot of boxes. But then I had none of the classes because it's all pre-med. So then I had to go back to school for two years just to take the classes to get into physical therapy school, and then that was three years.
Speaker 1:So all of that to say I think we need to just break out of this cultural conditioning that we're supposed to have it all figured out because we are literally not, and the only reason we're taught that is so we can go out and get a job and make money and fit into this consumerist culture, so we can be good little producers, right, and make money, when the truth of the matter is we're exactly where we need to be when we are clueless about what we want to do in our twenties and for most of that decade. So if you're listening and you relate to that, you are seen and heard and we both get it, so that where you landed is in a very particular sector of psychology, which is, you know, you wrote a book about this about getting't say a thing about addiction. So have you had any exposure in your growing up to any loved ones who were struggling, any friends who were struggling, and, if not, what made you attracted to this particular part of the field particular?
Speaker 4:part of the field. Well, to answer your first question regarding if anyone, yes, I believe, right, statistically, one in four people struggle with some type of mental health condition and for sure and so I've worked with hundreds of family dynamics doesn't matter across all levels of socioeconomic status, ethnicities, culture, race, that I say when you lift off the roof of that home there's some issues going on and a lot of it's mental health. Sometimes there are cultures or generations that we didn't speak about it, but I think everyone can relate that they had a family member, a family member that we weren't quite sure what was going on, but we know something was not right, even as a young child. And so, yes, I did see that, navigating through my own struggles and that period of time in those 20s where I was trying to figure something out, I went through a lot of emotions, sort of you felt rejection, lonely, your self-worth gets impaired, and so definitely there was many times in my life.
Speaker 4:You're right, you bring up that very sensitive period in one's life, which I believe is childhood and adolescence, where a lot of imprinting takes place and we're so vulnerable to be needed and accepted. I think about, as I reflect upon these times, of how many different pathways I could have gone. Right, I was surrounded with gang members, at least to some degree in the fellowship of people, so I could have gone that route. There was times where you're exposed to substances and, of course, just like any other 20-year-old engaging in substances and could have gone one way or another, can partying have been a dependence down certain pathways. So, yes, my own challenges and struggles on an emotional and belief level in myself and, of course, immediate family members and extended family members for sure. But one thing I did do before I went to graduate school and I think it's one of the most salient parts of my life is I was working for a facility for severely emotionally abused adolescents here in California.
Speaker 4:And it really was an eye-opening experience for me. These were young kids who witnessed major traumas, been abused, trafficked, witnessed suicides, and it was just very tragic to see how much was they're responsible for, how much was put on their emotional backpack to navigate through, and me being a part of that daily impact of acknowledging them and helping them hopefully get in this healing process, really stuck in my mind and then I went down these other paths. Then I think that biggest reflections where I believe I had a really big impact, and then when I was trying to figure out what I want to do, that resonated, coupled with some people in my life who said, hey, you'd be a great psychologist, and so I want to thank those people as well for leading me in that direction. So I think it was a culmination of various factors, but it was an aha moment to me early in my thirties of this is what I need to be doing.
Speaker 1:So so once you graduated, did you start in the addiction world as a psychologist right away?
Speaker 4:It worked out that way, and so I needed. I graduated from the University of Oklahoma and I needed what we call postdoctoral hours and because, by the way, by the way you guys getting your doctor, it's not enough.
Speaker 4:Exactly. And so, yeah, they need clinical hours. And so the the first few months of working with him, getting my postdoctoral hours, he said, hey, I'm opening up a treatment facility. Do you want to come on board? And I said absolutely. And so we did.
Speaker 4:And it was a treatment facility for adults, females and females struggling with significant psychiatric and substance addiction. So I just dove into it full feet. First, yes, I've worked with some clients in the past that struggle with some substances, but that was really a hyperspeed awareness into very, very acute psychiatric conditions coupled with some type of substance dependence or addiction. And so, absolutely, I was there for about almost. It was very fortunate to be exposed to that. And then the support group, within that first year as well. That psychiatrist said, hey, the psychiatrist has been running this group for 18 years but he's leaving. Do you want to take it over? And of course, when you first graduate, you're a yes person. Yes, I'll do it. So I did and I never said, gosh, there's no way I'm going to be doing this for 18 years and it's going on 15 years and I love doing it and helping those families out there. So that's sort of how I fell upon this. And, like I said, things aren't coincidental.
Speaker 1:I believe things are laid out the way they're supposed to get into your book, but I'm going to start by telling you something that I think is going to be a great way to just dive in, which is that my initial reaction, my reactive, emotional self, who has overcome her own addiction, but who comes from a family full of addicts, who has'm so curious to get into this with you because I think from where I sit, you know and we'll take my my most recent loss, which is I don't know if you know this about me actually, but I lost my sister.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm sorry to hear that Two years ago to a drug overdose, and I am 15 years in recovery when I tell you that I did every single thing, for better and for worse to try and help her over two decades, for better and for worse.
Speaker 1:to try and help her over two decades, and that includes controlling and managing and manipulating, when I was in total fear, you know, pressing the program on her all the way to my highest self coming to the table in the last six months of her life when I knew she was in a relapse but she adamantly denied it and she had had horrific bruising on her face, broken nose, face broken nose, cracked tooth, split lip I mean evidence of how sick she was. Yeah, and she clung to her story of slips, trips and falls and I had people calling me left and right from the east coast, which is where she lived. Have you seen your sister's face? Have you seen your sister's face? Have you seen?
Speaker 2:your sister's face.
Speaker 1:I'm so scared. I'm scared we have to do something. To which I responded I have been trying to do something. She's not ready. I am leading by example. I have extended my hand. She knows I am here and that it is possible, at least for me, but she never believed it was possible for her. I went to bed that night. I woke up the next day, I called her and I said I've been thinking about what you told me, about what happened to your face, and it feels like there's more to the story than what you shared and I just want you to know that you're safe to share it with me.
Speaker 1:That was me putting down every young sister reactive reactive emotional response that I wanted to have, where I wanted to beg and scream and kick and sob and pull her into treatment and subdue her into recovery. And my higher self showed up and just said you are going to lead with grace and dignity and you're going to reach your hand out one more time, and she's either going to grab it or she's not, and it's not up to you to save her as much as you really want to. And she said Sam, I know what this looks like, I know it looks crazy, and if there was anyone that I could admit that I relapsed to, it would be you.
Speaker 4:Wow.
Speaker 1:Because I know you wouldn't judge me.
Speaker 1:I promise you that's not what this is. Six months later she died, thank God, only been a few times in the last two years where I have wondered if I should have said or done anything differently, if I should have flown back east when I saw her face and refused to believe that she was fine and done more. But for the most part I don't feel guilt or shame, thank God, because I know what that feels like, because that happened to me after my dad died, and it was a nightmare, the way I tried to run from those feelings, the way I tried to run from those feelings. So when I read the title of your book, I thought does he have a way to help your resisting loved one get into treatment? Because I couldn't, and so I'm.
Speaker 1:So this is, you know, not to put you on the spot, but it's a fascinating conversation, because every person who loves an addict wants more than anything, even if it's coming out sideways and you're enabling them, which is another backwards way of doing it. Or you're screaming at them because you're so scared and you think maybe they'll hear you this time, or you're doing what I did and you're extending your hand and trying to lead with grace and not push but just attract it by living sober. What do you make of all of this?
Speaker 3:and how did you?
Speaker 1:reach a point where you said I have been seeing enough stuff clinically where I feel like I need to make a book about this and that what's in this book might actually help.
Speaker 4:I need to know yeah first and foremost, my sincere, sincere thoughts and condolences for the loss of your sister and your father as well. And so, um, sadly right, you represent a growing number of statistics of people, and that's what I'll speak to about, what motivated me and the drive of where this book came from. I also want to recognize your 15-year sobriety. That's really, really huge, and if there's anything of paying it forward or anything else, whether it be for your sister, your father, you know your sobriety and your recovery is one way of doing that, and so I want to recognize those, first and foremost. And where this book came from was, as I mentioned earlier, is, for almost 15 years, been facilitating these groups, giving these talks, and what really emerged were these very, very common questions and concerns that people had. Well, for example, I don't know what to do. My daughter threatens to commit suicide if we don't allow her to stay at home. Or my husband is threatening to leave the family if I don't back off of his drinking, and those type of scenarios that I think a lot of people can relate to. Well, my granddaughter I know she's drinking alcohol and taking Xanax upstairs in her bedroom, but at least she's not in the street being abused in sex traffic, and so those are the common things that I've heard where families are stuck in guilt or fear, which are the most, I believe, the most powerful fuel, oil and gas that feeds this disease. And after a while, it was very, really literally formulaic. Whenever I would go to these groups, whether it be in the treatment center, the support group that facilitate or any families that came forward to me is these questions were very, very safe. It's like there was a template in my mind and I said there's something out there missing knowledges. And I would ask family members. I said is there anything out there, any knowledge out there, any manuals out there or books out there that help to address some of these questions? And a lot of them, surprisingly, ironically, would say no, there's not.
Speaker 4:And when I would give these talks, I would have slide presentations, especially since the pandemic, when we did a lot of things of Zoom, and people would ask me hey, can we get a copy of the slides? Do you have a handout? Do you have a pamphlet? Can you put this in some type of guide? And it really really dawned upon me At first. You know, you planted that seed and it was literally I talk about it 2020, which we all recognize and know what that was, and I remember very vividly that I was getting cancellation after cancellation March 2020, on a sunny day like this today, I said what is going on in this world?
Speaker 4:And that's when it dawned upon me, two years, three years later, when that seed was planted, to maybe write something. I said this is the time, and I just wrote that book, and what it was was all these conversations that I had in these groups with families was literally in my head, and I just started typing for six weeks, for like six to eight hours straight, but it was all these conversations, and then, of course, we organized it in some way. So that's where it came from is that there are these, what I call these missing knowledges out there that these people kept asking and they were staying stuck and paralyzed in, and so that's where I came up with the 25 must-knows that I write about, which I believe are the 25 most essential knowledge. You could be a therapist yourself. You could have been navigating through this for decades, you could have been brand new to this, but it is, I believe, the most foundational knowledge that people have to be aware of in taking these next action steps.
Speaker 1:Can you tell us what some of those are?
Speaker 4:Sure, some of those are. Well, the first thing thank you for asking is the first thing I tell families and it's the theme of my book is to have hope, because treatment or getting help really does work as long as everyone's doing their part, and that's the most critical part with it. And so just to let you know is, when I talk about treatment, it's not the formal process of treatment per se. It's not going to a residential, inpatient, intensive, outpatient, partial hospitalization program. That is treatment. But what my book is also is how to get your resisting loved ones to a position where they're wanting to accept help. So I want to clarify that as well. And what happens.
Speaker 4:So that's the first one is that to have hope, because I've worked with so many dysfunctional and toxic family dynamics. This disease whatever however you find a disease has fractured families. There's loss, but through the recovery or sobriety process I've seen families become closer together than they've ever been because of the healing and the work that they all do. But everyone has to do their part and one thing I say as well is that everyone in that immediate family system let's say I'm not sure how many people were in your immediate family system. Can I ask you how many would you say your immediate family system? Let's say it was. Can I ask you how many would you say was an immediate system? So it was your sister, you.
Speaker 1:Mom and dad. That's it, mom and dad.
Speaker 4:So four Okay, so I call that the primary support system. I imagine people being on a rowboat. Right, if you've ever rowed a boat before, how do you maximize your speed and distance? Everyone is working a hundred percent on their part. Does that mean everyone is equally athletic, equally talented, equally strong? No, but on that boat, everyone has to assume, in your family of four, 25% responsibility, no matter what has gone on, and you have to work a hundred percent on your 25%. Okay, and that includes your sister and everybody else. It's because one of the things I go ahead no, finish what you're. Okay, and that includes your sister and everybody else. It's because one of the things I go ahead.
Speaker 1:No, finish what you're saying. And then I want to ask you something.
Speaker 4:And so one of the things that the must knows is what happens. A lot we tend to correlate. The degree of harm or hurt someone's caused is usually the degree of work they have to do to get better. But everyone's contributed.
Speaker 4:There's a saying, as you may be familiar with in recovery the three Cs you didn't cause it, you can't cure it, you can't control it. But I say you perpetuate it in some form or fashion. Just because you're coming from a good place doesn't mean it's always the best or the right place, and that's another must know. So those are some of the highlights, among others, but that's the biggest one is you got to have hope. You just got to change the plan. The love has to look different. It's not so much about tough love which comes to a good place. I call it assertive love. Assertive love is meaning well, but you get a lot of people that look at it as I call it tough luck. Hey, we're done with you. Until you get better, we're done. And when someone's struggling and alone and depressed and helpless and hopeless, that just reinforces the tap out and give up. But you can still have a balance of having rules and boundaries, but also relationship. Go ahead, you were going to ask me something.
Speaker 1:So let's just get into a real, real-time scenario. Right in my family dynamic I was the only one giving my 100 of my 25 because my father and my sister were very, very close, but he was the family enabler so he would still bring her prescription pills. He had an idea that she was messing around with substance. I don't think he had a real clue, even though I surely told him and I said you are contributing to her sickness and it made me so angry, which was part of why, when he died, I had a lot of guilt, because I was always coming to my interactions with him with that chip on my shoulder, because I felt like he was keeping my family sick and I couldn't quite forgive him for that.
Speaker 1:So my dad was assisting in her addiction and my mother and my sister were estranged, and my sister had a stockpile of resentment against my mother, and my mom is the kind of person who really has no skill set for personal accountability. She is a martyr through and through. And so what happens when, in the family dynamic, if there's four people in the rowboat but only one is doing their part and I'm the only one that's holding on to hope and that's steering the ship? What would you say to somebody like me in that situation?
Speaker 4:You ask a very good question. As you were speaking, there was a lot of thoughts that go in my mind, so you might have to track me back. Do you mind if I mention a few things before we come back to that question? Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Go ahead.
Speaker 4:It's a couple of the must-knows.
Speaker 4:So one of the biggest things also, in addition to tough love well, when families say, god, we were just being tough on it, that's what we're told, that's well-meaning, that's what they're taught in some meetings or support groups. But redefining, reconceptualizing it. But another one is enabling. I get people come into my group. Oh my God, enabling is such a curse word. I literally write enabling is not a curse word If you think about it. You being a parent, me being a parent myself is.
Speaker 4:Enabling actually comes from a place of love and care. That's what we do. When our loved one is hungry, we give them nourishment. When they lose a job, we give them resources. When they get evicted from apartment, we give them shelter, uber or transportation. Where's the motivation to stay sober and to be responsible? If someone loses a job because of their chronic alcoholism and we continue to fund their living arrangements? Where's the motivation to make those changes? So that's one of the things I want to mention as well. It's one of the must-knows. And another thing too is, if I may ask you three words and no one's ever got it exactly right, unless you read my book. Unless you get it, you could be the first. So three words, simple words of why people, for example, use substances chronically. Three words why they do it. Can you give me three words?
Speaker 1:Trauma, guilt and shame.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. Those are correct, but it's not the one I'm looking for. Mm-hmm. But the must know is more general than that because it works. It works for what it was originally intended but obviously over time we get tolerant, it becomes counterproductive and dysfunctional. If you drink alcohol to take the edge off, if you smoke some THC to be a little bit more relaxed in social situations, you do it because it works. Okay, another one, and it's not the exact one. The reason why, for example, your sister or other people can struggle chronically long lasting time. Three words, why your sister or other people who are dealing with this can continue to struggle and be like this well, I can't do it in three words, but what what I?
Speaker 1:what I believe to be true for people who are stuck in emotional cycles of dysfunction, including addiction, is that the fear and pain of what they will have to face when they stop is greater than the fear and pain that they're currently living in, so they will choose that dysfunction over the unknown.
Speaker 4:And that is correct as well. But if we take it back a step more in general, the reason why people can continue to chronically struggle, and especially in a family dynamic, is because they can, and you mentioned that with your father. They will. Because they can, someone or someone's are co-signing that ability to struggle, and your dad was coming from a loving, caring place. The one thing I tell family members is well, the three inevitable consequences and these aren't my own words. You get this in different recovery arenas. I add onto it a little bit but the three inevitable consequences to untreated mental health or substance addiction is that person or persons will end up in jail, hospital or they lose their life. Homelessness is temporary. Eventually, if they don't get help, they'll end up in jail, hospital or they lose their life, and not only lose their life. They can take someone else's life or maybe, in some type of unhealthy episode, put themselves in a dangerous situation where they harm themselves or lose their life or cause harm to someone else, or it can fracture families, divorce, bankruptcies, and so sometimes we always think of that person. They're the ones struggling, they can lose their life, but we don't look at the collateral effects that can happen. I literally had a mother. Her child was 50s and chronically struggling with alcohol for decades. She had a quadruple bypass surgery at 80 years of age because of the stress that she was going through because her child, at 50 years old, would have court cases, go to treatment. While in the court case, when the court case is over or they be the judge, the person goes out and drinking again just to say like I've been in treatment, just to put face there. They're not being authentic, say yes, your honor, I'm in treatment, and then go back to that. And the other sibling was very frustrated. The mom is because he has no motivation to get better and she continues to endorse and co-sign that lifestyle and so, yes, because it works and because they can, and so for your family. Back to your question is when I call that primary support system and you have that great visual imagery and that's what I created with the boat is that primary support system that I call that are in that boat?
Speaker 4:What happens and it happens a lot in struggling family dynamics is you get one to two people rowing the boat and then after a while that other person says forget this, I'm not rowing anymore, I got my own life. And then you got two people rowing it and then, all of a sudden, one person it sounds like you're the one person rowing that boat and then you get burnt out. And that boat, and then you get burnt out, and that's what happens. And so what I would say for your family right now especially those people that want immediate change is, right now, just be a boat of you and your sister and getting her on board. Like, hey, I need you, right, I want to work with you, let's do this. So you would assume 50 responsibility, work your 100, and there's going to be a fleet of people around you and your parents can be involved in maybe some part of the process.
Speaker 4:But that's where the guide came is because there had to be some intervention prior, because if the family's not on board, if they're not creating unified vision, we have to vet that. And even if it's your dad or your mom and say, mom and dad, I know you love our sister and there's a strategy that I have and I want to get better and it's just going to be me and her in this process, if you're okay for that. But you can be part of what I call the secondary support system, where they're still there in care, but they're not ready to be in that primary part where it's the storm, until your dad gets some healing. That's what I talk about is that everyone's in recovery, all hands are decked, so your dad gets some healing. That's what I talk about. Is that everyone's in recovery, all hands on deck, so your dad. I would recommend hey, dad, let's get you some support, let's get you into therapy, whatever's going on.
Speaker 4:But you have to accept.
Speaker 4:I don't think we can ever accept as a parent, emotionally, that we can ever outlive our children, but we have to accept the reality.
Speaker 4:And that's where we stay paralyzed, because your sister, knowing very little, the longer she stayed in that state, the unhealthier she was getting and the harder it is to break from that lifestyle. Because this is the narrative that she created for herself, because it's your dad in some ways, coming from a loving place, kept putting fuel in her tank, right, even if it's metaphorically speaking, that little money here and there, that little hotel, that little motel. They don't need a lot to keep on going and that's one thing I talk about. On, the must-knows is we have to drain that gas tank and that little food that we provide, that little thing. We don't put them in a point of desperation where their only option is to get help. And so when we're put in a point of desperation we'll do almost anything to relieve that pain, and sometimes that may be losing their life. But most times people don't want to die, they just want that pain to stop.
Speaker 1:Yes. So the amount of work I have had to do on myself being the cycle breaker in my family where everyone else has stayed sick and has died sick, is extensive. So in regards to deeply understanding that addiction not just through the lens of my own life but through my sisters, my mothers, my fathers is a solution to the problem and then it becomes the problem itself. Later on, I know that in my bones.
Speaker 1:When it comes to codependency and the root of it all being that this is literally how my father showed his love and that that was really the best he could do because his skills were limited and knowing that it wasn't coming from a malicious place. I mean, I know this stuff in my bones, right being a person whose role in my family from the gate, my real self, from that state which shows up everywhere and in everything I do when I'm in fear. I mean, I used to joke when I would speak in rooms of recovery that my first addiction, and my deepest, is to control. Now, I might even say my first and deepest addiction is self-abandonment and people-pleasing.
Speaker 1:And I say that because recovery in therapy and in 12 step meetings is to not be the firefighter running in and fixing and saving and rowing the boat, not with my immediate family members who can't help because they're actually sinking the ship, but then rowing it towards other people, which, by the way, I've tried to do right. I mean, there was a woman who who I love, she's a very good friend of mine who came over to my dirty tiny New York city apartment the night I overdosed. Three years later she called me because she was driving drunk with her kids in the car and said I think I need to get sober. I was her Eskimo. She got sober. She's now a longtime sober friend who happened to live 10 minutes from my sister who at one time sponsored her.
Speaker 1:Then my sister went out again and in another moment of crisis where I had a little window of opportunity to help my sister, I rode the boat to her and I said can you please go to my sister's house right now? She's coming down from a high. She's very scared. Maybe we can get her to go to treatment right now, in this moment. And my sister refused.
Speaker 1:She was the only secondary family I could think of and it didn't work for my own mental health. Learn again and again how to balance the part of me that could intervene, that knew that I was the person that she could hear and respected and wanted to be like, and also that I had spent my whole life trying to save everyone else at the expense of myself, and I was constantly straddling the tension between who I was and who I was becoming. And so, even though I hear what you're saying and I've attempted and I had attempted to do that in whatever way I could I also had to learn how to stand down. Yes, because I would not be okay if I had spent my entire recovery trying to save her spent my entire recovery trying to save her.
Speaker 1:So what do you say to me, knowing that the root of all my trouble was in trying to play that exact role in the family dynamic that you're suggesting I play to help her?
Speaker 4:Well, as you're talking, I could just feel the energy, the emotional and physical energy that you went through in trying to be that person and to be that saving person. And one thing I would tell you if I was to work with you back at that point is that you're 25%, that you need to work 100% on what the part of it is, that wounded part of yourself. I know nothing about your historical story, but it would be that wounded, whether it be we call it the inner child, whatever else because all that stuff the saving, the fixing, the people pleasing was a compensation for some deficiencies, some fractures, some voice in your own life. And that's how it manifests. Because the thing is, what happens a lot with altruism is we see it all the time on paper. My God, you just do everything for people, you go out of your way and we look at it on paper like, wow, that's wonderful. And we jump to that conclusion because that's sort of a culture that we live in is when we do it for others, be of service to others, we don't realize that there's a spectrum, there's a gauge on that. When we're overdoing it, we're overcompensating.
Speaker 4:There's a wonderful quote that I came across some years ago. It's the degree of one's coping mechanism is directly proportional to one's degree of pain, of one's coping mechanism is directly proportional to one's degree of pain. And so we know that our goal in life is to achieve some type of balance, whether it be in our bodies, whether it be in a family system, someone calls up at work, someone had to pick up. We have to pick up the responsibilities to bring balance. So any type of systems, goals to achieve balance, there's healthy ways to achieve balance. There's therapy, there's prayer, there's journaling, there's mindfulness techniques, there's exercise, but people that struggle, there's unhealthy ways to bring that balance. And what I'm hearing you saying, that's what it worked. Again, the reason why you people pleased, in your own words, the reason why you fixed, the reason why you saved people, is because it worked for what it was originally intended to make you feel, to validate yourself, and my sense with you is you did not have a lot of validation right. You, for whatever reason, were invalidated, weren't acknowledged, and your way of compensating for that pain is through those tactics and that's what happened to at fault, where you would do it to the point where it was unhealthy for not only yourself but the other person, and that's one thing we don't allow. I think a lot of what's happening in our society and culture is we're not allowing people to navigate through discomfort.
Speaker 4:You've heard of the helicopter parent, correct? Have you ever heard of the lawnmower parent? Is that the opposite? No, it's a different take on it.
Speaker 4:So there was an article that came out some years ago. It was a true article, as this father rushed into his daughter's school and he said, hey, I need to see my daughter. And he says what's going on? Let's call on Mr Smith. What's wrong? Mr Smith, I just need to see my daughter's teacher. Can I see my daughter's teacher? She said, if you're okay, she goes. Okay, I just need to see her. And so they called the daughter's teacher. The daughter's teacher came out. He said Mr Smith, what's going on? Is everything okay? He goes yes, can you give this water container to my daughter? She forgot it at home.
Speaker 4:And it really highlighted what they call the lawnmower parent, which we take out the like lawnmower, take out all the obstacles out of the way to avoid any person, especially children, to feel discomfort, and we forget about that. Discomfort is where growth takes place. You're a physical therapist, right? I'm thinking about you because my mom had knee surgery and she was in a lot of pain physical therapy but she knows that pain is where the growth and change takes place. And that's what we don't do and I think that's what happens is when we do things for other people too much, we deprive them of navigating through their own solutions and they get comfortable in that dynamic. It sounds like there was this loving relationship between your sister, but there was an entanglement dynamic. It sounded like there was this loving relationship between your sister but there was an entanglement, and where sometimes we overly emphasize how much power we have over something. I can save you, I can be that difference maker. I see that in a lot of toxic relationships. No, I'm going to be the one to get this person sober. No, you know what I'm going to be. They didn't have a parent in their life. I'm going to be that father figure I'm going to be. They didn't have a parent in their life. I'm going to be that father figure, I'm going to be that mother figure. And that disease loves that dynamic. It loves that dynamic and so um, so the disease, if I may say right.
Speaker 4:The first thing we think of is you know, what substance do you have, or what medical condition or mental health condition? No, to me, we all have a disease. A disease is any entity in our life that causes impairment. It's been chronic. Jealousy, rage, greed, racism, um, gluttony, right and pride, envy all those are diseases that they cause impairment in our life. So we all have a version of disease and we all have a version of recovery. Recovery is not just substance related. It it's not medical, just medically related. It's our plan in place for healthier living, and so that's how what I would say to you if I was to work with you then is hey, we're focusing on your sister, everything outside of you, everyone else. We need to look within. That's where the healing needs to take place. Let's those fractures that you've experienced in all your life.
Speaker 1:So, so then, validation. So so, yes, and I've, and I've done a shit ton of work on that, yeah, so then, how do you take that, knowing that that is exactly the healing I need, and rectify it with how to get your resisting loved one into treatment, because they don't go together? Yes, I. What do you say to the person like me who eventually came from a healed place? I mean, when I tell you me saying to my sister, it feels like there's more to the story than what you shared, and I want you to know that, if there is, you're safe to share it with me. That was the most healed part of me, extending my hand in a really gentle way, and she didn't take it.
Speaker 4:And then she died.
Speaker 1:So how? What about the people who've tried to get their resisting loved ones into treatment?
Speaker 3:I know.
Speaker 1:And it doesn't work.
Speaker 4:And that is what I mentioned earlier that is humbly or in a positive way is. Those type of situations I know it's tough to hear it, but your situation with your sister are what I call outliers. We have the bell-shaped curve. Those are the outliers I call outliers. Right, we have the bell-shaped curve, those are the outliers, those people that when we're doing everything correct, that sometimes and that's what I talk about those inevitable consequences when that person isn't accepting help, there's that very real possibility and that's what it is, and no matter what we do and what we can.
Speaker 4:But what I have found out is, no matter what you've done, right, there is something in some form or fashion in something in her life that was not allowing her to get to that point where she could be in that moment of an aha moment. Is I want to change? Be in that moment of an aha moment is I want to change right? Some of the best things I've ever heard from people is I'm done Not done living, but I am done with this lifestyle and for whatever she was going through, she didn't get to that point and you can do everything you can, and that's the harsh reality. I know it's easier for me to say it from here, to say it, that no matter what we do, we have to accept that. But I was focusing on that is, when we don't accept that reality, we stay stuck in fear. And what happened with your sister is those realities, when we truly believe we did everything we can, that they fall into that category, and so I don't know the nature of her passing and so forth and so, but you know, most people that want to die don't want to die, they just want that pain to stop. And she was in immense pain and for whatever reason, um, she was scared, she was. Whatever that resistance was, the resistance is just a manifestation of something else. It was fear, hopelessness, whatever it may be, guilt, and that's where the acceptance part I'm so glad to hear a part of your recovery is to accept that I am not harboring that guilt, that I was powerless, so powerless.
Speaker 4:We hear that again in recovery and people come with it. What do you mean, dr Brian? Powerless? I'm not weak, I said no. Powerless just means that this thing, I can't do this thing on my own, and that's why fellowship, as you know, is critically important. This disease thrives on isolation, on one-on-one. You take this disease on one-on-one. As you may know, I got this. Some of the worst words I could ever hear someone in the recovery process is I got this. And so, like I said, without knowing so much about your family dynamic and your sister, you did what you could Somewhere along the line. There I'd love to see was what was perpetuating her to not to get to the point where.
Speaker 4:I need help, I want to change and, like I said, usually what I have found, 95% of the time there is some entity, a person, place, situation or thing that is allowing that person to stay unwell. I don't know her living circumstances. If she was able to pay for her place, I don't know if she was living on her own. How was she funding that place? Right, and some of the best places I've seen we would never think about it as a parent myself. Some of the best places that someone's ever got to get help in a point of desperation is they were either homeless they end up in jail, have a legal case or they were in a hospital. That is some of the point of desperation, where people say, wow, I need to make a change. And so, like I said, I don't know.
Speaker 4:Your sister's situation may be very similar to a lot of the families I work with is, yeah, we did everything we can, but he's you know okay, where's he living? Well, he's in an apartment. Who's paying for that apartment? You know well, we are. Well, we don't want to be in the street, but, like I said, some of the most profound cases, desperate cases where people were lack the basic resources because families set that boundary, and when we say assertive love means hey, we're always going to love and care about you.
Speaker 4:We just can't support this lifestyle, unhealthy lifestyle, any longer, and so that puts the option on them, and so I'm wondering if your sister or another with other dynamics like this is. They feel like they had no choice. I don't know if she had a choice, and so that's what we have to do is, hey, this is what you can have. You can have a family, you're going to have a sister, you can have people that love you, as long as you make that choice to get better. But we're not going to go over here and support this lifestyle. This is what we're going to be a part of and support.
Speaker 1:So well, I will never know. I don't get to know that, you know. And she had financial resources. That was not in her favor for sure. She also had my father. She hated my mother, she loved my father and my father was co -signing her addiction. So, right out of the gate, this was not going to be easy for me or good for her. I will never know that, even with the financial support she had, whether or not, if my whole family unit were so intact and we all got on that rowboat together, if it would have helped save her life and that's a really hard pill to swallow because I was truly on that ship alone.
Speaker 1:That said, when you take all of it away, when you take okay, I'm the one in the, in the immediate family dynamic who's trying to do it all. Yes, she has the money. Yes, she's being a little bit enabled by my father. But I think, as as a recovering addict myself, knowing full well Covering addict myself, knowing full well what I was covering up when I was drinking and using Okay, and then knowing full well at five years of sobriety and hitting my actual rock bottom in a marital crisis and watching many other people not just my sister I love die, it is my belief that shame, not guilt, that's not strong enough, and fear is a part of it, but I don't think that's strong enough. I think shame, left untreated, is the number one killer of our spirit and, if we let it go long enough, of our lives.
Speaker 4:It's coincidental and ironic that you mentioned that, because just a few weeks ago I was on a podcast called Erasing Shame and the leading question, he says, is what do you think about shame? And so I paused for a moment and I said number one, shame, how I interpret it, is harboring a great deal of humiliation of having done something or having something done to you. And I said that shame is one of the biggest barriers for people to get help, and that's where conversations like this, as we destigmatize some of the best group dynamic shares I've ever had is when someone reveals something very, very secretive about their life a male being sexually abused, a female engaging in some behavior is because it gives people permission. What we're doing today is we're giving people out there permission to move out of shame, to validate that, hey, I struggle just like you. I struggle just like you and we take away that feeling sense of humiliation. And so I'm glad you bring that up. And, if I may say one thing, too that you say with and the reason why I created this manual is the family.
Speaker 4:Intervention wouldn't be on your sister, so to speak. Yes, she needed an intervention. The intervention is the family, and that's what I focus on when people come into treatment. It's definitely the hard part to get there, but on some levels, on a clinical perspective, it's the easy part Because now your loved one's in a place with structure, routine, accountability, they're in a program.
Speaker 4:There's therapy groups, there's medication, there's sleep, there's therapy groups, there's medication, there's sleep, there's food. I don't focus on that person because the system will take care of itself. My intervention now is on the family, because when that person steps out that door, day 45, day 60, day 90, whatever, if that family dynamic hasn't changed, the probability of success dramatically plummets. And so that's what I would do with your family is I'd say, hey, dad, right, I don't know if you had, or if he was in therapy or whatever else, or if there was some family intervention, but the family intervention I would have focused immediately on the family. I would have got you, mom and dad sit you down in the room and say this is where the healing needs to take place, has to begin.
Speaker 4:And that will eventually translate into your daughter getting to a point. But your sister was never at a point. Even if it's a small little increment or a chink in the armor we know that a mouse can fit through a hole the size of a dime. This disease will find every chink any way it can and it doesn't take long to sustain that gas tank. Your sister didn't run out of that gas tank. Yes, in some ways she did. That was the horrible consequences of that. But in terms of keep going with that lifestyle, she had a gas tank to fuel. I've had people say well, I'm only giving my son $5 a week, or my daughter. Trust me, that can go a long way, as you know. Oh, yeah $5.
Speaker 4:I tell people all the time you give someone a nickel and you tell them that there's free heroin 70 miles away. Boy, they'll find a way to get there. But they can't apply for a job, right, they can't work a part-time job, they can't fill out a job application, and that just tells you the complexity of of this disease. But but I'm hoping, with your listeners out there, that they're hearing that, that that don't be paralyzed by shame, guilt and fear, because that is what keeps people stuck. And and what happened with your sister, I find, and a lot of times when, even if the family's doing all they can, that is usually not the outcome. But as we talk about, there was still something going on in the family dynamic that allowed your sister to go with this lifestyle. And sooner or later there's a max point where your body or whatever else says we're done, and done not in the good way, we're done, but I'm done.
Speaker 4:I can't do this anymore and if I may ask you, the title was triggering for you. You mentioned that earlier and I'm assuming it will be for a lot of people very provocative in many levels. Can you clarify why that was emotionally triggering for you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I also have to wrap up.
Speaker 4:Me too.
Speaker 1:Because I do want people to know where to find you. But I will say first of all I mean now we're in a fentanyl crisis, so people overdosing and dying is front and center right now, and it's more serious than ever because you could not even be an addict, you could just be a young kid experimenting and you can die right. Yes, so all that to say it's sort of a worst fear realized right, it's sort of a worst fear realized right.
Speaker 1:No parent, no sibling, wants to live through the death of their loved one, and it is one of the most normal things, because you're so powerless over the loss, to try and replay the tape and make sense of what happened and try to figure out so as not to have it ever happen again. Ha ha ha, if there was anything you could have said or done. That's what the ego does when it feels wildly out of control. It tries to make sense so you can maybe control the outcome in the future. So when a title says how to get your resisting loved one into treatment, it implies that there is something I could have said or done and it touches on that wound where I am trying not to live in a place of guilt and shame because I literally feel like not only did I try everything, I was the only one, and it just activates.
Speaker 1:Yes, all of that inside of me. So it's like, like it's, it's tricky and at the same time I I get, I get it and I get why, if there is a plethora of information in one place where families are clueless about where to start and what to do and they are ready and willing to come together and get on that goddamn rowboat to help their loved one, that it would be such a valuable resource, right? So it's not to say it isn't a brilliant title, but God damn it, from where I sit and what I've lived through, it is tough.
Speaker 4:It is, yes, and you are, and thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate your honesty with that, and I've gotten comments of people because I have worked. It's the reality of work and treatment that I've had people who have passed away, whether it be overdose or they took their life, and they express the same thing as where was this book 10 years ago, five years ago, when we needed it, and so I can imagine where that comes from. I'm afraid to read this because it might trigger that there is something I could have done or didn't do, but if anything, but if anything, what you're doing for your own healing and your own men's is you are paying it forward by being of service to others and hopefully, maybe some knowledge is from here can use as a springboard to continue to reach that message out there. And so so, if anything but but yes, self-forgiveness and and and it's going to be really important for you and spreading your positive energy out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I would say you know when I think about what I'm doing in the world right now. You know this book that I wrote right, which is a testament to the way I'm living and that it is possible, is possible, and wanting to get on stages and share my story and tell people about a modern approach to the 12 steps, that it's not religious, that it can be wildly practical to anything and anyone, whether you're an addict or not Right when I think about well, is this just my latest version of my deepest trauma wound, of trying to fix and save?
Speaker 1:Is it? And the truth is, I'm not sure yet. Maybe it is. I can't think of a better way to repurpose my pain if that is true. But what I can say for sure is I don't know, and I never really will, what would have saved my sister's life, but I do know what saved mine, and from that place you better believe I'm going to go out into the world and shout my truth, my hardest things and how I've overcome them from the rooftops, to mitigate the shame that people are carrying around in their cells in the hopes of saving someone else's life, and that gives me great hope for the future.
Speaker 4:And drive, yep, yep, and this is what you're supposed to do. And, like myself earlier, when you find out what you want to do in your passion, you're unstoppable. I really feel like this is the second chapter of my life and, like you, you have that zest and that energy and that drive and yeah, and so you're unstoppable. So, yeah, I really appreciate the conversation. I really appreciate you sharing and opening up about your family and yourself and your own recovery and allowing me to just be a part of that for your listeners as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it really was like a real-time session, honestly, and so I think people are going to get so much out of that. Because it's one thing to take the wisdom you've learned over all of the years you've been practicing and hand that book over to the family.
Speaker 1:That's ready and together and on board, and it's another thing to coach the family or the family member that's in my situation, and I think this was a great challenge for you today to come on here and not really know that that's what we were going to get into, and yet it still was such a rich and important conversation. So I deeply appreciate your time and your expertise and I would love for you to just tell people where they can find out more about you, and we can add in anything you want at the show notes on the bottom in terms of all the links will include it in the show notes, so please let us know.
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, on my website it's at Dr Brian Laquanencom. You can find there a little bit about me, some of my other media appearances, podcasts, TV appearances and it says a little bit about my book and links to my book. You can find my book on Amazon, on Barnes and Nobles and other distributors, and you can find me also on Instagram and TikTok at drloquanin for both of those. So it's some of the ways you can get in touch with me.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much.
Speaker 4:Thank you again and appreciate what you're doing.
Speaker 1:You too, take care, take care.
Speaker 2:Waking up. I hear the desperation call. I turn my back and hit my head against the wall. Don't need a crucifix to take me to my knees. I'm whipping my mistakes to jump over the grief. Breaking the circuit, making it worth it. Oh, sick and tired of the voice inside my head Never good enough. It's leaving me for dead. But perfection's just a game of make-believe. Hey Gotta break the pattern. Find a new reprieve. Breaking the circuit.
Speaker 3:Making it worth it. Oh, I am ready to make a change. I am big, that's my pain. There's no deep inside.
Speaker 2:I got less than life. I can be brave and afraid at the same time. Practice self compassion, start to calm my mind, taking tiny steps to loving all of me. Just a process, cause it's gonna set me free, breaking the circuit.
Speaker 3:Making it worth it. Oh, I am ready to make a change. I am big. Make a change. I am bigger than my pain. There's no deep inside. I got nothing like.
Speaker 2:Gotta, gotta gotta break it, or fake it till we make it. Gotta, gotta, gotta break it, come on.
Speaker 3:One, two, three. I am ready to make a change. I am bigger than my pain. There's no deep inside. I got the the life. I am ready to make a change. I am bigger than my pain. There's no deep inside. I got the the life.