The $7 Million Mistake That Saved My Soul

What happens when a Hollywood power broker responsible for managing millions for stars like Beyoncé and Alanis Morissette loses everything through addiction and embezzlement? Jonathan Todd Schwartz takes us on his extraordinary journey from "Diva Whisperer" to federal prison inmate to recovery advocate with unflinching honesty.

Schwartz doesn't shy away from the brutal truth – he stole $7 million from clients to fund his cocaine and gambling addictions, actions that destroyed his career, marriage, and relationship with his children. Yet his story isn't defined by his spectacular fall, but rather by his remarkable redemption. Now celebrating nine years of sobriety, Schwartz reveals how he transformed his greatest failures into a platform for helping others.

The conversation delves deep into the psychology of addiction and recovery, exploring how childhood abandonment created patterns that went unresolved for decades. Schwartz shares powerful insights about making amends (including to yourself), developing self-awareness, and learning to practice compassionate self-talk to break free from shame while maintaining radical accountability. His practical recovery tools – including writing down potential relapse consequences and practicing daily gratitude – offer tangible strategies for anyone struggling with addiction.

Perhaps most compelling is Schwartz's ability to hold two seemingly contradictory truths: complete ownership of his actions without crushing shame. Though some relationships may never be repaired – two of his sons still don't speak to him – he's found purpose as a program director at a treatment center, where his lived experience provides unique insight for clients battling their own demons.

Ready to transform your relationship with yourself? Take Schwartz's powerful advice to heart: "Have the courage to be vulnerable. Ask for help. You're worth it."

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Jonathan Schwartz: A Story of Redemption
• 12:27 The Moment Everything Changed
• 24:31 Finding Faith After Rock Bottom
• 34:29 The Ninth Step and Making Amends
• 43:24 Living Without Shame
• 51:12 From Crisis to Helping Others

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome back everybody to the truth about addiction. Today's episode is honestly remarkable in the sense of somebody who has made some serious mistakes with massive consequence, and is a living, breathing embodiment of someone who has forgiven themselves at every level and is now in a state of redemption and living honestly and authentically the way that he always wished he could. Even though there are still consequences real consequences for his actions, he's able to hit his head on his pillow every night and feel proud of the man that he is, and that just speaks not only to the work he's done on himself but to what is possible when we make a choice to heal Jonathan. Todd Schwartz, once a towering figure in Hollywood's elite financial circles, lived a life that many could only dream of. As a power entertainment business manager at GSO Business Management, schwartz was entrusted with managing the wealth of some of the biggest names in the entertainment industry, including Beyonce, mariah Carey, alanis Morissette, linkin Park, halsey and Gwyneth Paltrow. His reputation as one of Hollywood's most trusted financial advisors earned him the moniker Diva Whisperer, a reflection of his ability to cater to the unique needs of his high-profile clients. However, beneath the surface of this seemingly perfect life, schwartz was hiding a dark secret. Consumed by a monstrous drug habit and an uncontrollable gambling addiction, schwartz began to embezzle millions from his clients to fund his destructive lifestyle. His double life was a carefully constructed house of cards built on lies and deceit, which ultimately came crashing down in 2016 when Alanis Morissette discovered that Schwartz had stolen over $4.7 million from her accounts. I don't even want to read the rest of the bio other than this part, because I want you to tune in.

Speaker 1: 2:35

Schwartz's story doesn't end with his fall from grace. He has, since 2020. He has, since 2020, embarked on a journey of redemption. Sober and a co-chair of his local Gamblers Anonymous meeting, he is determined to make amends for his past wrongdoings. Schwartz is now dedicated to proving that he is no longer the defrauding monster he once was and is desperate to clear his name, particularly with his ex-wife and children, who continue to harbor doubts about his sincerity.

Speaker 1: 3:09

Let's get right into. It is leaving me for dead. But perfection's just a game of make-believe. Hey, gotta break the pattern. Find a new reprieve. Breaking the Welcome back everybody to the Truth About Addiction. Today's guest is a brand new friend, and his publicist found out about my podcast and reached out to me because he thought we would have a lot to discuss and after reading his bio myself and now, of course, the listener, you guys have had a chance to hear his bio it makes perfect sense that he has landed in my lap and I have so many things to ask you that I want to talk to you about. Jonathan, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2: 4:10

Thank you so much, Dr Hart. I'm so excited to be on your podcast today.

Speaker 1: 4:17

Where are you from?

Speaker 2: 4:18

I'm from upstate New York, the Borscht Belt, the Catskill Mountains.

Speaker 1: 4:22

I knew I heard a New York accent in this.

Speaker 2: 4:25

Oh, come on, I'm from.

Speaker 1: 4:26

Brooklyn. No, I mean, it takes one to know one.

Speaker 2: 4:30

Absolutely. I love that Already, the deep connection.

Speaker 1: 4:33

Yes, except you don't live there now.

Speaker 2: 4:36

No, and I miss it and I want to go back. It's just I'm so busy and all the different things I'm doing. But I am a true New Yorker still, despite living in California more than half of my life, and I miss the good bagels, I miss pizza, I miss Chinese food and so much more.

Speaker 1: 4:54

Oh, my God, you're speaking my language literally and this is obviously you guys, not what this podcast is about. But take a second. Here I was. I was just visiting New York for a 25 year high school reunion, and high school was a very tumultuous time. So part of why I did that and this, this part, is relevant you know, I like to, when I'm ready, go back to places where there's been big trauma and make new memories and form new neural pathways from which I can associate that place, and so me going back to New York was partly for that reason. And also I got some sandwich on a giant piece of bread and was just shoveling it down, making an entire Instagram post about how, if I still lived in New York, I would just be one giant carbohydrate, one walking carbohydrate period. Yes, I am with you, man. I have been in LA for a minute since 2010. God damn it. I am with you, man. I have been in LA for a minute since 2010. God damn it. I love that city and I miss the bread and the bagels.

Speaker 2: 6:13

Oh good bagel. I'm vegan now, but I love a good New York bagel. I miss that so much.

Speaker 1: 6:21

But enough about carbohydrates, although it's really, really fun to talk about and it's making me salivate a little bit. I am so, so intrigued with anybody who has a story from pit to peak, who has a story of just being face down in the gutter and finding their way forward, and I think you have one of those stories.

Speaker 2: 6:51

Yes.

Speaker 1: 6:53

And how much time sober do you have?

Speaker 2: 6:57

Well, it's a great question, because tomorrow I celebrate nine years sober.

Speaker 1: 7:01

Oh, my God.

Speaker 2: 7:03

Yes, I'm so excited. You know I didn't get to choose. I often say in meetings I did not get to choose my birth birthday, but I was able to choose my sober birthday and that means so much more to me than my call traditional birthday.

Speaker 2: 7:17

And tomorrow, I'm very proud to take cake and I I'm so deeply committed to recovery. It's without recovery I wouldn't be on this podcast today, you know, without the 12-step community, without a lot of other things that we'll talk about that I'm doing today and I'm really proud of saying that I'm nine years sober and it's one day at a time program, but I'm still proud Every day. I'm proud, you know, when I wake up and I'm thanking my higher power that today at least I woke up sober.

Speaker 1: 7:49

Okay, so then take me back to May 9th, see if I can get this right 2016.

Speaker 2: 8:05

Correct, so that's a good question you asked. It's opening up a Pandora box, but I love it. So in my prior career as an entertainment business manager, cpa I represented a lot of high net worth clients in the entertainment space and in early May I was in Tampa Bay. One of my clients was Beyonce and she was rehearsing for her Lemonade tour at Tampa Bay Raymond James Stadium and at that point I received a phone call from my former partners. That Alanis Morissette and the reason why I mentioned Alanis Morissette, and that's the only one I'll mention in terms of my direct victim of my poor choices, my white collar crime.

Speaker 2: 8:50

I embezzled $7 million from a handful of clients and I take full responsibility for that. But specifically to May 9th and the importance of that date, kind of fast forwarding a little bit, I received a call from my former partners and they said that that date kind of fast forwarding a little bit. I received a call and from my former partners and they said that Alanis, who fired me in 2015,. Where did this $4.6 million, jonathan, go? Because Alanis has no idea that this money is missing. And I was so still in active addiction at this point, early May. I was in denial, I was dishonest, while deep down inside for, because of some trauma, I still had a lot of insecurities, low self esteem, but I presented to the outer world that I was Superman and I had a high ego to some degree, and so I immediately lied to my partners and said that she invested in a cannabis business and that wasn't true, but that's what I said in that moment. So they asked me to come back and meet with them and, to my surprise, I was also meeting with their lawyers, my former partners and they said Can you get anything from Alanis that she signed, you know? They said can you get anything from Alanis that she signed, you know, authorizing the release of this money. I said sure, when I knew darn well that I could not obtain a signature from Alanis. So fast forward.

Speaker 2: 10:16

Now it's around May 7th, may 8th. I'm celebrating my 23 year anniversary with what was what's now my ex-wife, but at that time my wife, what was what's now my ex-wife, but at that time my wife and we were in Santa Barbara. And here I am snorting lines of cocaine and placing bets like a complete degenerate. And I get this call from my partner saying you remember when you said you would take a lie detector test? Well, we want you to come to Beverly Hills tomorrow and meet one of the world's renowned former FBI agent and polygrapher. And I said, of course, I'll be there, no problem. That was probably around May 7th. Now, that was the pivotal moment where I had to tell my wife for the very first time that for almost six years I was gambling every day on sports and I never told a single soul and I really hadn't, at that point, even addressed my unresolved trauma. And so here I am now for the first time telling my wife and she was in shock, but because I was so high and because I was like still thinking I'm superman, I'm gonna google how to beat a lie detector test. So I'm going to Google how to beat a lie detector test. So here I am Googling how to beat a lie detector test.

Speaker 2: 11:30

The next day I get in the car. Before I get in the car I say honey, I'll be back, enjoy the spa. I'll come right back after I take this test. It'll be probably late afternoon. Now, this is May 8th.

Speaker 2: 12:05

I'm driving from Santa Barbara an hour and a half, let's say, to Beverly Hills. I am snorting lines of cocaine. I am making my last because I couldn't take anymore what I was doing. It was bad enough. Living caught every day for six years, almost in fear that I'm going to get caught. And now I'm taking cocaine because I started to experience suicidal ideation and I just couldn't look myself in the mirror anymore. And so now I'm in the polygrapher's office. I put my feet up on his desk with complete arrogance, I rock back on the chair and I say let's go. What can I tell you about myself? And still very much an ego. And we had this great conversation or at least I thought it was a great conversation for about two hours. You know we're establishing this rapport. I think I'm leading the rapport building. I forgot to Google the part that that's what they do.

Speaker 1: 12:52

And.

Speaker 2: 12:52

I'm thinking that I'm winning this guy over right. And so after two hours now I think we're best friends. I sit you know, wires are connected feeling like I passed it. I leave his room, I drive back to Santa Barbara, I try to log into my office and I no longer have access to my office. So I called my assistant and she says she has access. So now I know I'm in real trouble.

Speaker 2: 13:20

So I called my attorney, nathan Hockman, who happens to be the DA now of Los Angeles, and he said, jonathan, you've failed that test worse than anybody in this polygrapher's career. And I said oh, so what does this mean? He goes. Well, I'll tell you what it means. It means you need to come see me tomorrow, may 9th 2016. And we need to figure out a strategy, because you're facing 23 years in federal prison. So clearly, my heart dropped and I went and met with him and, thankfully, he, shortly after that day, negotiated a plea agreement with the government for four to six years and on May 3rd 2017, I was sentenced to six years in federal prison and July 11th I surrendered to federal prison.

Speaker 2: 14:09

And so that's the significance of how May 9th was born was ultimately, I failed the lie detector test and now my case was going public and I had to tell my kids because, remember, I didn't tell a single soul and that was also very difficult for me. And you know, still to this day, two of my three sons don't communicate with me because I hurt them, I embarrassed them, I was their hero and I don't use childhood trauma. I don't use adverse childhood experiences. I don't use the fact that my father was a gambling addict and my and my and a cocaine addict and I never wanted to be like him. I don't use the fact that my father was a gambling addict and my and my and a cocaine addict, and I never wanted to be like him. I don't use excuses. Ultimately, I made the poor choices and I own it, and I want people to understand that it's important to hold themselves accountable for their choices.

Speaker 2: 14:57

I don't play the victim role. I don't sit and pity me, woo me, but because of May 9th and every day beyond May 9th that I live, today I live in deep gratitude and I live in humility and I have what I call a healthy version of ego today. But humility is way above, in terms of intense level, than ego is for me today. And I don't live in my past, but I don't forget my past.

Speaker 1: 15:28

I have so many questions, so let me ask you this At what point were you introduced to AA?

Speaker 2: 15:38

I was introduced, probably a couple weeks after May 9th, I actually decided that I would go to an outpatient program, called because they specialize in gambling and substance use. But I didn't go there for the right reason. I went there in hopes that it would really be like this way that the judge would mitigate my sentence. But and I really, to be honest, wasn't immersed at that time and really didn't care to be part of the program, the IOP program. But in fact, one day, probably two, three weeks, when I started the 12 steps with my sponsor, I said I don't understand step one.

Speaker 2: 16:16

Like me, jonathan, powerlessness and unmanageability. Me, right, the ego is still present. And he said Schmuck, what do you mean? Your life's not powerless and unmanageable? You're facing the 23 year sentence. I said you know what? You're right, let's get started on these 12 steps. And that was the moment, that, that epiphany for me, where it's time to develop a strong connection with a higher power and to learn humility and to realize that you know, there's no more room in my life for poor choices, including, but not limited to, addiction.

Speaker 1: 16:55

What was your relationship with faith prior to the 12-step program?

Speaker 2: 17:00

So I'll answer that by the trauma that I received started at age four. My father abandoned us my mother, myself and my younger brother and my mom was forced to take three jobs and put food on the table and a roof over our heads. So for 46 years I suppressed my emotions. I'm 55 today and I had it was unresolved for 46 years today. And I had it was unresolved for 46 years. And you know, I never wanted to be like my father.

Speaker 2: 17:36

But I became much worse than my father and I did a thesis paper in grad school on ACEs and I really did that selfishly, to understand the why. You know, because I thought I had a moral compass, I thought I lived in integrity, but clearly I did not. For a period of my life, a significant period of my life, and because my father abandoned me for most of my life I was yearning for a male figure in my life and I looked for that male figure in synagogue. You know I wanted to find a rabbi, someone whom I can connect with my faith and learn more about Judaism and religion and spirituality. And you know, it wasn't until, you know, sometime like end of May where I walked into a synagogue because a friend of mine asked me if I would come and pray for his three-year-old daughter who was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer. And I said absolutely his three-year-old daughter who was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer. And I said absolutely.

Speaker 2: 18:27

And a moment I walked into synagogue and I laid eyes on this rabbi. There was this I'll call it my pink cloud and where I knew this man was there for a reason. I knew that I walked in here for a reason and that's when I had faith. That was the origin of my faith. But today it's more than faith, it's trust and, uh, you know, the faith was important at that time. But as I've worked the program, I've realized that I must not only just have faith but I must trust in my higher power, who happens to be my god and trust and I speak to. I get messages every day from my higher power and I accept those messages today, not because of faith so much, but because of the trust.

Speaker 1: 19:15

Have you also been to therapy?

Speaker 2: 19:18

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 19:19

I did a lot of EMDR work during COVID and it was. It was effective. It was effective. But what really helped me, more so than EMDR, was I had a ghostwriter for my book and she wanted to. I asked her to interview my mom because I still to this day don't remember my childhood maybe three, 4%, even with the EMDR work that I did. But my mom came on and it was really just to understand the dysfunction of our family, like where did I live? What home, how many homes did we move to? Because we had a lot of instability in terms of living environment and I really don't remember most of it.

Speaker 2: 19:56

So she started to answer some of the questions posed by the ghostwriter and she started to really cry excessively and and I said, mom, why are you crying? She said, jonathan, I am so sorry for the trauma, I'm so sorry for the physical and emotional abuse that I put on you as the oldest child. I wasn't ready at my age to be a mom and I certainly wasn't ready to be a single mom and as a parent of three adult sons. That was the moment I really forgave my mom. That was the moment where I said, mom, it's okay, like I get it, and so that's really what helped me more so than EMDR to stop necessarily searching for the why as much as I was. But I just wanted to hear that from her. I just wanted that apology, and today she's become my rock. She actually is diagnosed with stage four lung cancer.

Speaker 2: 20:49

She's been battling that for 14 years and I speak to her every day. She lives in San Francisco and I'm in LA, and if I speak to her for 30 seconds to a minute, that's I'm blessed, because tomorrow I may not speak to her for 30 seconds to a minute. So she is my rock, despite the trauma, you know, because I can understand the position she was in.

Speaker 1: 21:15

You and I had very different experiences with introduction to faith and of the 12 steps. I was one of those people who grew up in a house where there's no such thing as God. If you believe in God, you're an absolute fool and the only person you can count on is yourself. And I also wasn't at spiritual rock bottom when I was introduced to the 12 step program. So for me I'm hearing all these things. I need to unwind about all of my belief systems, not just about God, and I'm like absolutely not. You know, and I was one of those people who went to one meeting and didn't go back for a year and a half and then, when I did go back, very angrily and begrudgingly sat in the very, very back with my arms folded and was really only there because the guy I was dating was this close to leaving me, and that was terrifying. So, in order for him not to leave, I was like, oops, I guess I have to stay. So, in order for him not to leave, I was like, oops, I guess I have to stay.

Speaker 1: 22:25

And I ran on a really empty program for not just the first year where I worked some of this. I mean, I worked the steps without a higher power, which people do not recommended. But that was that's my story. And then my sponsor relapsed and killed himself after 22 years sober and instead of that being a turning point really in either direction, what it taught me was if I relapse, I'm dead. But what I wasn't ready to do was start to cultivate some sense of not just faith but trust. The only thing I was willing to double down on was my ability to control, manage and manipulate the world around me and the people, places and things inside of it.

Speaker 1: 23:18

You know, and I'm one of those stories where I was five years sober, face down in a pit of despair in a marital crisis, before I hit rock bottom, and that's when someone came into my life and said, what if we work the steps on your marriage? And suddenly this blueprint that I just couldn't feel safe inside of, you know, and I was being told I was in my ego, and it's not that there wasn't ego, but all those things self-centeredness, ego, arrogance they're symptoms and if we get to the underbelly, there is a wild lack of safety. That's going on inside of us, right? And so we're doubling down these behaviors because it's what kept us safe when we were young and we take them into adulthood and they wreak havoc.

Speaker 1: 24:17

So what ultimately has been the framework for my whole sober life from that moment forward and what I wrote a book about is is Is there a way to take the framework of the steps and actually just make it current in 2025 with what we now know about ACE scores, childhood trauma, addiction, psychology not so that we have a hall pass to do the work, but so that we can actually look at these behaviors with compassionate curiosity and not why the fuck did I do that?

Speaker 1: 24:55

I'm a fucking idiot. Because then we're not going to live, we're not going to be able to live happily in that state, and there will be a time in the future where that voice, if it's loud enough and shameful enough, will trigger a relapse, if not a substance abuse relapse, a behavioral relapse. So can we look at the lens of our lives with compassionate curiosity and then, depending on what we find out, take radical responsibility for how we behave and who we become? Yes, right. And so it's interesting always for me to hear people's experience in sobriety, and people come on this podcast all the time who have been in AA, who hate AA, who fell in love with it from the second they were there and the steps work perfectly fine for them who are like they're great, but it's like college, and I'm also now in graduate school doing personal development with these people and listening to these spiritual podcasts.

Speaker 2: 25:59

And also, by the way, therapy in these different modalities has been massive to get to the root of the suffering, and so I love talking to people about the scope of what they've been exposed to, tool wise to get them where they are, because each person's story is so absolutely unique yeah, it's interesting because when clients come into the treatment center that I work at, it's I'm not just working with them on relapse prevention skills, right, I mean I can give them all the relapse prevention skills, right, I mean I can give them all the relapse prevention skills that other places can give as well. But what contributed to your dependency on substances or alcohol and for many of them it's trauma. It's there they have, like myself, they have unresolved trauma, ptsd, whatever, and I want them to leave here with resolved trauma. Because if I want to put them which I do in the pole position to succeed, or whether it's smart recovery or Dharma, whatever they want, the importance of building a sober peer network, all those things that are said at most treatment centers, this is something that I really focus on because one I experienced it myself, not having the courage to ask for help and the courage to work on myself, certainly during my active addiction, but for most of my life, and I want I don't want them to make the same mistakes that I made. And you know, even when it comes to like traditional relapse prevention skills, well, if you're, you know you're having high cravings, you know they'll tell you to call your sponsor.

Speaker 2: 27:46

That's great, but you and I both know that picking up that 500 pound phone when an alcoholic's walking in Ralph's by three or four aisles filled with alcohol, that's not so easy to do. So what I encourage clients to do is what I did and it worked for me and maybe it'll work for them is I want you to write down on a piece of paper the negative consequences of a relapse. Right, and the reason why that's, I think, really something that's important to do, is because I resonate with visual aids. So if they carry a wallet or a purse, keep that with you and you're the author of that paper. Right, you're the author of the negative consequences. So by being the author of your own negative consequences, you're taking ownership in it. It's so powerful that in the event you forget to pick up that or you refuse to pick up that 500 pound phone, go into your wallet, look at that piece of paper and the likelihood of you relapsing is remote.

Speaker 2: 28:46

Like you know, for me it's now and also help rewire their subconscious mind, change their inner dialogue, change the narrative of how they talk to themselves. These are wonderful tools that I use, but for me I'm a nerd today and I'm a proud nerd today. I'm risk adverse today, but my negative consequences I think about quite often, not that I have cravings, but I don't want to become complacent in my own personal recovery plan. But I don't want to become complacent in my own personal recovery plan Because if I omit one thing in my recovery plan then I'm becoming complacent. To me that's a sign of a potential relapse.

Speaker 2: 29:24

But, like for me, my negative consequences are really powerful. For me they are one I will disappoint my higher power. Two, I will disappoint the pride that I take in my own recovery plan. Three, the likelihood of me earning back the trust from two of my three kids who don't already have a relationship with me. And now even the one that does will probably be disappointed. So having any relationship with my children would probably be very difficult. Four, hurting my mom and stressing her out, which will hurt her. You know stress is not good for someone struggling with stage four cancer. I don't want to contribute that to her disease. And five, I'd probably lose my job. And six, I'd probably be homeless To me. That's powerful for me and thankfully I don't have high cravings recently. But you know, unlike any human being, I could wake up tomorrow and have cravings and I want to be prepared, and that's what I want clients to be, why I want them to be prepared as well.

Speaker 1: 30:19

So fascinating because my idea, of which I think is what you're saying, is brilliant and can be super, super effective, and from the work I've done on myself, my call to action, if you will, would be different in that moment, and I and I'm going to get around to that in a second because it goes, I think, with the next question I have for you, which is what is your experience of the ninth step.

Speaker 1: 30:54

And for people listening for people, listening who don't know. In recovery, you know the steps go in order for a reason. And eight is becoming willing to make amends to the people that you've harmed, and you do it with discernment. Nine is the actual act of making the amends when it is appropriate to do so. So that is what I'm asking him about. What is his experience with the ninth step?

Speaker 2: 31:25

so the hardest part about the ninth step for me was that, um, until I was off probation, I was not allowed to make amends to the direct victims and even perhaps the indirect victims of my crime, nor my former partners, nor my former employees. I was prohibited by my sentencing guidelines that I couldn't talk to them. So I did make amends with those outside of that circle and when I made amends I realized it's not an apology, it's how did I harm you? This is how I harmed you. Is there anything I left out?

Speaker 2: 32:00

And really I'm doing that for myself, right, I have no expectations when I make amends, but I cannot, nor would I want anybody to carry resentments any longer than they're already carried out while you're working those steps in step four and so on and so forth.

Speaker 2: 32:16

But step nine, I'm releasing those resentments by making an amends and unfortunately today I have not been able to reach some of my former clients, both direct and indirect victims.

Speaker 2: 32:30

I do because they say that you should not make amends to an individual if that amends can cause them harm, and I've already caused these people an enormous amount of harm.

Speaker 2: 32:41

So it's something that I still discuss almost on a weekly basis with my sponsor and I almost have a resentment that I have my resentments that I haven't done a complete step nine as it relates to the victims of my crime and people that were once in my life when I say people within the entertainment space but I have made amends with my to my kids, I've made amends to all my loved ones and to friends ones and to friends, and it was not as difficult because when you no longer have to live in fear and you worked all you know steps leading up to step nine and you've done the work, I I'm. I'm transparent today and I'm not a people pleaser anymore today. So if someone's not going to accept my amends, I'm okay with that because I harmed that person, but I feel better that at least I made an authentic attempt to make those amends and that's how my experience in Step 9 has been.

Speaker 1: 33:42

Here's why I ask. I ask for two reasons. Until I was in that marital crisis at five years sober, I had never been asked the question that would change the course of my life, which was when I got to the ninth step with the woman I was doing the work with. She said have you ever made an amends to yourself?

Speaker 2: 34:15

Very interesting.

Speaker 1: 34:18

Not only had I not done that, it hadn't even occurred to me that I could, and certainly the 12 step program wasn't suggesting it. And I haven't met a single addict who isn't carrying around, at least on the front end, a bunch of guilt, regret and shame. And it is my experience, not just in my own sobriety but professionally as a clinician, even with the non-addict, that the most dangerous thing we carry in our bodies is untreated shame.

Speaker 1: 35:00

And so when this woman gave me permission to look at how many times I had cheated on my husband before we were married, and now here we were married and he was emotionally absent and we were separated, and it was all my fault, that I could actually have done a bunch of bad things but not be a bad person, that perhaps the punishment didn't fit the crime, that perhaps I actually deserved big, beautiful marriage Filled with love and connection and intimacy, which was not the one I was in. And once that became possible, the work changed. So I had done the steps many, many times up until that moment Right. So when I would work step 11, for example, and try to meditate, I was hyper aware of my critical voice and instead of silencing her or working out instead you know, addicts are really good at shift shifting their addiction to something else that's healthier and that's not necessarily a bad thing in the beginning. But I was jumping over this voice that had been working so hard my whole life to keep it all together, but who was killing my spirit and who was clouding the lens through which I saw my life. And I got to talk to her and say hey, girl, you know what you just said was kind of mean and the way you said it was from the lens of a person who doesn't love or forgive themselves. And I'm trying to cast a vote towards a person who does love and forgive themselves, and I'm trying to cast a vote towards a person who does love and forgive themselves. And because that's true, I'm going to need to ask you to stand down and I'm going to have to birth some version of self-talk that feels right to me, that moves the needle of my life in the direction of a woman who deserves love and a fulfilling marriage. And so what would that be? What would that sound like? And I had to think about.

Speaker 1: 37:51

I was 30 years old and clueless about how to speak compassionately to myself. And what happened? As a result of rigorously practicing that work? Because, boy, to rewire our subconscious means, we have to first become conscious of the patterns and then we have to double down on practicing new ones, like anything else. But what happened for me is that because my inner critic could move herself from the seat of CEO at the boardroom table into an adjunct seat, she was still there.

Speaker 1: 38:36

My intuitive self slid into the driver's seat and when she spoke up, she sounded so different. She was always rising from the belly up. First of all, it was never top down. So, critic, controller, procrastinator, codependent part, fear part, they're always top down.

Speaker 1: 39:02

Very cerebral, obsessive, constricted anxiety producing this part of me felt like a bubble that floats up from the bottom of a glass, and it was always curious, calm, clear and compassionate, and I was like who is this and where have you been? And god, I've no. And and from that moment on, I have been working very, very hard to be in deep communion with my intuition because, for me, right Unlike you, I had no faith and I definitely had no trust in anything internal, definitely had no trust in anything internal. And until I made amends to myself, I was trapped in a body and in a world where I could not tolerate uncertainty, no matter how many times I worked the steps. And when I could hear the whisper of my intuition, I thought to myself well, I don't know what or who God is, but this is the closest thing to it and I'm going to hold on for dear life it's powerful yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:26

So I love asking people that, because what's fascinating about the way you speak is that you have, besides radical responsibility. It's clear to me that you have worked through what some people would never get out from under in terms of regret, guilt and shame. The ability for you to own what has happened, the severe consequences of the decisions you've made all the way up to present moment probably some of the most painful stuff right, your own children some of them will not speak to you and to be able to just stand in that without shaming yourself makes me wonder if you haven't made an amends to yourself through the step work. How have you reached a place where you do not feel ashamed of what you've done and you can continue to move through the world? Because AA teaches us for sure how to pull up our bootstraps and learn to be accountable for our actions and our behaviors? Absolutely, but it is often missing the compassion piece and you have that. How did you get that?

Speaker 2: 41:57

so on a daily basis. I try to acknowledge what I'm proud of, that I've done each day and so, for example, I'll give you a silly example. I'll be. You know, I could be in Starbucks and active addiction and there's two people in front of me in an active addiction. I'm impatient and irritable and it's why do I have to wait in line? Like why, you know, why don't these people hurry up, right? So in that case I would get really annoyed, like are you going to order or are you going to sit there and look at your phone for six minutes before you order your venti soy latte? And today, in recovery, when I stand in line at Starbucks, I'm no longer impatient. I have a choice to make. Will I be patient and recognize that those people in front of me, I'm no more important than and number two, if I'm on some time constraint, then I'll just leave and I'll be okay leaving because I have to make an appointment.

Speaker 2: 43:02

In that moment I say to myself and I literally do this Jonathan, in active addiction, you would have screamed and barked and been angry at the people in front of you. I'm proud of you for today in recovery, that you made the choice to wait in line and be patient and by comparing and contrasting, and I can see it's measurable for me, albeit intangible, that I'm making progress. For me to not live in shame, I need internal validation, and that comes from those moments in the day where I do things that I'm proud of that I know darn well I would not have done in active addiction. Therefore, it's, for me, progress today and it's something that I'm proud of and that's how I escape, if you will, carrying any shame internally. As I said earlier, I don't live in my past, but I don't forget it. But the past was defined by my poor choices. I have nobody to blame but myself and, honestly, I work really hard on myself within the 12 steps, within the commitments I have at meetings, with myself going to a therapist and myself being an AMFT giving therapy to clients. I've done a lot of work, but I also know there's a lot more work I need to do and but the shame part, I don't have anymore.

Speaker 2: 44:31

Um, a funny story in sometime in April of 2016, I used to see this eastern western doctor and when in May, when this became public my case he called me up and he said I want you to meet me at this house tomorrow. I want you to wear a black suit and I don't ask me why, just show up. So you talk about trust, right? So I trusted my doctor, so I show up at this house. I have no idea who owns this house. I walk in the doctor's not there yet and I see people in the backyard and a rabbi in the backyard giving a eulogy. It's like a funeral. And I'm confused, like why am I here? So I sit in the back row shortly after the doctor arrives and I ask him what is this? He said the person who owns this house fears death and he wants to hear what people are saying about him at his funeral. And I said well, okay, so it's a staged funeral. And I said okay, I really wanted to walk out at that moment, but out of respect to the doctor, I stayed. And when we left together, he asked me what's your takeaway, jonathan, from this? I said let me process this for a moment. And I said my takeaway is as follows In the height of my former career I'm making up this number maybe 600 people would have attended my funeral right had I died.

Speaker 2: 45:56

Of those 600 people, maybe 98.5 percent were there out of professional obligation, not because they cared about me. Today, if I pass away, pass away. I said this to him then and I'll say it here today that I'm lucky to have 50 people at my funeral. But those 50 people 100% of them care for me and are saddened by my death. And that's born because I have learned how to set boundaries with people and I have a quality inner circle today and people around me today in that circle are healthy for me and they're not toxic.

Speaker 2: 46:31

So I don't have shame. There's no reason for me to have shame. I'm grateful for the handful of friends that I have in my life, that we mutually respect each other and that I have the courage to ask my sponsor for help and guidance. If sometimes I don't know the answer, I have the courage to ask my sponsor for help and guidance. If sometimes I don't know the answer, I have the courage to ask my higher power to help me as well. And the shame is dissipated. And it doesn't mean that I don't think about the poor choices I've made in the past, because I do. I'm human. Of course I do and I feel terrible, but I don't live in shame. It's just the reality of being a human being.

Speaker 2: 47:09

My mind today I have very strong self-awareness and I have a relationship with my emotions and you know my self-awareness, you know I, I can catastrophize still today. I can be impatient, I could, I could experience some of the million defects of character I had in active addiction. And if I see any of them surface through self-awareness today, I can begin to introduce positive, reality-based self-talk to myself. And that would accompany if I had any shame, shame. So if I did experience any shame or other type of emotion, that's not healthy. I can immediately, through my awareness, change the narrative in my head to reality based self talk. And it has to follow that order. As you know, probably even more than I know, that it can't start with positive self talk if you don't know what you're talking about.

Speaker 1: 48:03

Right, it has to start with self awarenessness and so this I, I don't have shame, but again, it doesn't mean that I don't think about the people that I hurt, because I hurt a lot of people no, and I and I say that because I think it's wonderful, and I think anybody who's in a place where they are able to straddle the tension of acknowledging their past and not living in it has a superpower that the whole goddamn world needs access to. And it's such a driving force of my work, of why I do this podcast, of why I speak on stages, of why I wrote my book, so I asked not to dig and find out where there's untreated shame, but to actually say tell me what you're doing, as it as it, if it, when it pops up, what are you doing Right and what am I doing and what are we doing so that people can find their way forward and not identify themselves as a terrible person, even if they did terrible things?

Speaker 1: 49:08

100, agree with you and I love what you said about you know, because I think when I'm interviewed on podcasts or a lot of people are like give, give the listener, you know, a practical tip. What does that mean? You know, compassionate curiosity, it's sort of this big thing Like what does that mean, right? And so then I then I say okay, for the rest of the day, pay extra attention to the quality of your self-talk. And if you catch yourself saying something like why didn't you just do that, just an idiot?

Speaker 1: 49:44

That is the moment where you shift the tone and you say why did I just do that, and you'll probably come to find you are hungry, you were tired, you hadn't taken care of yourself at all, and you've been working for six hours straight, and now you got to go deal with the kids, and so you snap at them. You're going to find some stuff out by being curious, and then you take radical responsibility so you don't just say you're sorry, you amend the behavior going forward, but you also exchanged a practical tip where your consciousness is elevated through the day such that you can go. Oh my God. In the past, in this exact scenario, I have behaved this way, and right now I'm behaving this way, and you're not just stop, because here's the thing too, like, but this is a gratitude moment, but you're actually feeling and acknowledging it. So much, though, that you're going. I'm proud of you.

Speaker 2: 51:05

Yes, you're saying I'm proud of you, yes, you're saying I'm proud of you, jonathan.

Speaker 1: 51:11

You're speaking to yourself, to the parts of yourself that at one time in the past made much different choices. That is a practical tool and I'm so curious did someone teach you that? Do you remember the first time you did that? Because I will never forget that first moment where that woman said that to me and I started to go. Wait a minute, I can be compassionate and loving to myself.

Speaker 2: 51:39

Right.

Speaker 1: 51:41

So who taught you that?

Speaker 2: 51:47

How did you learn that? Yeah, so when I first came back into society, I sat on my couch for nine months, um, crying and feeling sorry for myself and being the victim and self-pity. And then my therapist said after nine months, you have to stop Like. I want you to sit in your emotions but not playing the victim. I want you to sit, I want you to feel and connect with your emotions. I want you to start to have a, you know, a body mind connection.

Speaker 2: 52:15

You know and you know, when I had these somatic experiences, when I'm feeling stressed and like my neck is tense and my back is tense, well, your body's telling you that you're stressed and you're having anxiety. I want you to connect to these emotions, but rather than connect in that self pity way that you're so used to and accustomed to from as that default in your subconscious, let's work on rewiring it. I want you to learn strong self-awareness and I want you to replace, I want you to add to that awareness this reality-based, positive self-talk. That awareness, this reality-based, positive self-talk, the antithesis of self-pity, right. And so that's where I learned it.

Speaker 2: 52:55

It was probably about five years ago, so I didn't always have strong self-awareness. In fact I rarely had any connection with my emotions. But today I believe that crying is super cathartic for me. You know, I could cry for whatever reasons I may cry, and because I have a deep connection, I think it's beautiful. And I love when people cry in therapy, it gives me an opportunity to ask them what I was asked like. What are you feeling right now?

Speaker 2: 53:16

What's contributing to that. And so for me, that's the moment where I adopted this strong self-awareness. But I had to go through some hard times playing that victim role, and that that hard, those hard times have shaped who I am today, where I can actually say today to myself and I do like I'm proud of who I've become. And I'm proud of who I'm becoming because there's still work to be done.

Speaker 1: 53:42

And you give me an example of that scenario. So you're, you're in your therapist's office, you are in a very strong emotion, you feel a wave of self-pity. How, in that moment, are you redirecting your self-talk?

Speaker 2: 54:03

back then, when I met with my therapist, she just said, you know, I don't really recall, to be honest, but I think, if I would look back at that period, she was a pretty blunt therapist, which I liked, like she wasn't like, just she told me how it is and she said you got to stop. Like what the self-pity was about was I was dating this woman and she cheated on me. When I came back and I was like, oh my God, you're playing the victim role. You were cheated on. And she said to me Jonathan, this was your message from your higher power, because you cheated on your wife and so your higher power wanted you to feel how it feels like to be cheated on.

Speaker 2: 54:46

And it was that moment where I redirected through my awareness that my higher power in that moment was giving me a message I actually needed to learn and hear Like and that's why, in a relationship with my current girlfriend today, like there's no shot of me cheating on her right, I've learned my lesson, you know, I now know what it's like to be cheated on and I certainly know how it impacts someone when you cheat on them, and that was the moment where I became really aware of my behaviors and the way that my mind works, and so I did a lot of work, like I said, on the EMDR after that and I just I just cleared my head of, honestly, it's just clearing my head and my body and my soul from all the trauma and that's what brought me the connection to my emotions and that followed with that self-awareness.

Speaker 1: 55:36

Yeah, I mean what I'm hearing you say, right, so I'm thinking of the listener who's stuck in guilt or regret and maybe who doesn't have access to therapy, and so if they're in a loop of self-pity and obviously you had sort of this woman very directly intervening this moment, that loop to show you, you and also you were able to hear and feel safe in the context of, hey, this, what if this is, you know, your spiritual lesson to learn, based on what you've been through, right, in not so many words, and you were able to.

Speaker 1: 56:23

Instead of you know, there are some people that would feel angry about that or completely unready or unwilling to hear anything like that, and instead you were. You were like, oh, I'm gonna, if, if that's true, if this is something to learn, then that's actually more interesting and that redirects my attention out of this loop I've been stuck in and towards what can I learn and what can I do going forward, since I'm now looking at it this way. So you got sort of a fresh perspective and I love that, and you work in fresh perspective and I love that, and you work in treatment now, is that right?

Speaker 2: 57:17

I do Thank you for asking. Yes, I work at a great six bed luxury detox and residential place in Encino called Altus Rehab and I'm an AMFT and a program director here, and the owner is so client centered in her approach and culture that I'm just I love. It's not like I used to make a lot of money in my past career, but money never brought me happiness. Today I make very little money and I'm the happiest I've ever been because I'm of service to others and that helps me selfishly be of service to myself, and so working here at Altus Rehab has really helped me have a have a purpose in life and I'm totally indebted to Janelle, the owner and the CEO.

Speaker 2: 57:50

And I also do teletherapy with the Chabad Treatment Center in LA, which is a medical facility, and it's just I love it, I just love it. Just I wake up every day in gratitude that I get to go and try my best to help people, although I've learned the hard way. That I get to go and try my best to help people, although I've learned the hard way that I cannot help everyone.

Speaker 1: 58:11

What do you want people to know, or listening?

Speaker 2: 58:16

Please have the courage to be vulnerable Like I'm a huge fan of Brene Brown and I want to be the male version of Brene Brown.

Speaker 1: 58:22

Amen.

Speaker 2: 58:23

Yes, have the courage to be vulnerable. Ask for help.

Speaker 1: 58:36

You're worth it, and all it does is simply take that courage to get the help, because if you ask, there'll be people that help you.

Speaker 2: 58:42

I have a tattoo going down my spine that says vulnerability is my superpower.

Speaker 1: 58:45

Love it, and I got that because I read Daring Greatly 5,000 times and it has been such a guidepost for how I, how I live, and when I give a keynote, I quote Brene Brown at the end of it, and it's all about vulnerability. Yeah, we have a lot in common, my friend. A lot we do. So please tell the listeners where they can find you and reach out to you thank you on my instagram, which is at the real jonathan schwartz appropriately. That's the handle. Yes, what?

Speaker 1: 59:19

about about website. Any other place they can find you not yet.

Speaker 2: 59:25

Um, right now I'm working on a book and a movie, and so you can learn a lot about that on my Instagram and within a year you'll have a. We'll have a book out there and it'll be a lot of recovery talk, but it also be a lot of truth about the entertainment community and some of the things that I think needs to be improved within that community, like transparency, what I didn't have when I was in my active addiction.

Speaker 1: 59:51

Well, I love what you're doing and it was really a wonderful conversation no-transcript.