Camp Counselor to Conscious Creators: Reunited After 40 Years

What happens when two souls reconnect after four decades apart? In this heartfelt episode, I sit down with Pam Yudko – who was once my camp counselor when I was just six years old, and is now a nationally recognized transformational coach with over 20 years of experience helping people break free from limiting beliefs.

Our conversation, recorded live at my Heart Conscious Creators event in Los Angeles, explores the profound power of acknowledgment in healing relationships. Pam shares with remarkable vulnerability how she discovered layers of judgment she was still holding toward her husband of 21 years, despite thinking she had "done the work" already. The breakthrough came during a simple hike when he finally acknowledged her feelings about not feeling safe – that simple "I hear you, I'm sorry" transformed their entire relationship.

What makes this discussion so powerful is Pam's willingness to examine how our earliest emotional needs continue shaping our adult relationships. She identifies safety as her primary need – above love and belonging – which explains why her defenses activate so quickly when she doesn't feel secure. Through a recent conflict with her husband, she reveals how his response of love rather than matching anger allowed her to access feelings she'd been protecting herself from – particularly the pain of disappointing someone she loves.

This episode offers a masterclass in relationship healing through its raw authenticity. We acknowledge that spiritual and emotional growth isn't a one-time achievement but an ongoing process. As I share during our talk, "We don't graduate from our spiritual curriculum here on Earth." Each challenge presents an opportunity to either fall back into old patterns or expand our spiritual vessel enough to shift into a new destiny.

Join us for this deeply moving conversation about breaking circuits, removing protective walls, and finding the courage to feel everything – even the emotions we've spent a lifetime avoiding. If you're ready to transform your relationships through radical honesty and acknowledgment, this episode is your invitation to begin.

To Book a FREE DISCOVERY call with Dr. Harte, click the link below!

https://calendly.com/drharte/free-discovery-call-w-dr-harte

Chapters

• 0:00 Podcast Introduction and Guest Bio
• 1:46 Camp Delaware Reunion and Connection
• 4:50 Pam's Journey as a Coach
• 7:25 Navigating Judgment in Marriage
• 11:54 The Breakthrough of Acknowledgment
• 17:31 Safety, Love and Belonging
• 21:46 Processing Disappointment and Growth
• 24:29 Closing Song "Breaking the Circuit"

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome back everybody to the truth about addiction. Today's episode is from a live event heart conscious creators that I throw monthly in LA and what's so cool on our spirituality and she came to speak at my event. So it was truly a reunion in real time and such a cool conversation. So let me read you her bio, and I'm excited for you to hear this.

Speaker 1: 0:37

Pam Utko is a nationally recognized transformational life and executive coach. Pam has spent over two decades helping individuals break free from limiting beliefs, get unstuck and live with greater clarity, purpose and authenticity. Her coaching is known for being direct, compassionate and deeply effective, empowering clients to take bold action in both their personal and professional lives. So you guys know me now based on what I do. It makes total sense that we would find each other again, because our work in the world is quite similar. Enjoy the conversation, send it to a friend. If my podcast means something to you, if it's helpful, please leave a review, leave a comment. I love hearing from you. Tell me what you want to hear more about, ask me questions, book a discovery, call it's totally free and I will see you guys in the next episode.

Speaker 2: 1:31

Bye, gotta break the pattern, find a new reprieve.

Speaker 1: 1:46

Breaking the Pam. Chloe Met Was my counselor when I was a little girl in sleepaway camp and we literally have only recently reconnected, and now she is speaking at my events. I have no idea how this is going to go and I'm so fucking excited. I love you. Okay, so good. Okay, hi, pam, hi Sam, can you tell me what Camp Delaware could see us now? I mean, also, it was called Camp Delaware, but it was in Connecticut, so let's just start with that. One of the very special things about that place it also shut down.

Speaker 2: 2:27

Yeah, it did.

Speaker 1: 2:28

But there are still reunions that you should go to. I should go to them. Do you go to them? My last one was in 2016, but I did. It's like everyone gets back together and acts like they're fortunate. So I'm not quite sure if it's fun. I think that's why my life is it is. I love to like this. You feel like an emotional regression, but maybe worth it. Yes, okay, in a different. We could, we could do it differently. We'll do the. You'll do an event. Oh my God, I hold a heart conscious creators event in my old camp, going on tour to Camp Delaware. Well, I just said to you that one of the one of our I've I read Sam's book last. I was at the last event last month and I grabbed her book and did not put it down for the weekend and it was. I just kept saying to her I'm so proud of you when you know someone, since they're six years old and you know this version of them, and there was always such a deep connection with us, for us, for me.

Speaker 1: 3:25

I grew up in Queens, neighboring to Brooklyn, and Jessica and Sam were the two little girls that weren't from Long Island. You know, most of our camp was from Long Island. There was this borough connection that we had. I knew her mom because she went to the gym that I worked at and I just felt, and there was also a depth, even when you were a little girl, really, oh my gosh, you and Jess and I've said this to you I always felt connected to you and there was this depth. We would sit and talk I don't know if you remember this, oh my God, tell us but we would have. I mean, I was six years old and then Samantha and I was three years older than Jessica it was Jessica two years, two and a half, okay and there was a depth at 14 years old, at 15 years old, with these little girls. I mean, first it started off they were like the gymnasts of the camp and I'd be like, just do a flip for us, just do a flip for us, uh, but there was a depth and real conversation, like late night. You know, I mean it was typically about about boys and but there was just something deeper with both of you. Um, so this is full circle moment for me. I just remember like, for me, I always felt different. There was always a depth for me that I felt like no one understood, and there were certain people that I felt that with. So that's why, when I moved out here and I knew she was here, I'm like I need to reconnect her, and I do believe it was that depth. And here we are. I love you. I love you.

Speaker 1: 4:48

Can you tell everybody just who you are, the work you do in the world? Yeah, so I am a coach. I started being a coach for the New York City Department of Education in 2004. So, 21 years later, I morphed into health coaching, then life coaching and now executive coaching. I morphed into health coaching, then life coaching and now executive coaching.

Speaker 1: 5:11

Um, but I will say I'm listening to everyone talk and I feel like I mean, I guess it goes in ebbs and flows. I am 48 years old and I'm not making that as an excuse, but I don't know. I don't know how to keep up with the times of all this. Like, I just want to talk to people, I want to meet someone. I, you know, um, I think I heard at your last event. I, I walk into a restaurant and I know the waiter's entire life story since I'm nine years old, or, you know, on an airplane I'm sitting with the flight attendant and I after afterwards, I just know their story.

Speaker 1: 5:38

My husband will say they'll be like I don't know why I told you everything. She goes, she gets that all the time, but that's been from the time I'm younger and I think it was at your last event. Just love connection, love people's stories, love their journey and, like, all I want to do is be in a room with people who are willing to connect heart to heart. You know, and do this soul work. So watching you and watch you know, watching you do this is just music to my ears. And again, I'll just keep saying I I talk about forgiveness and resentment, all that other stuff I don't love. I'm proud of you at all. That's like a thing that I'm so proud of you. I'm so proud of you. So I love what you're doing and what you're, the message you're getting out.

Speaker 2: 6:23

Thank you.

Speaker 1: 6:23

Well, this is actually really perfect segue, because my feeling of you has always been that you have no judgment and when you can feel that someone's not judging you, whatever armor is around your heart, you might put it straight back up at the end of that conversation with that person. But it's going to come down and people are going to tell you things and then go. I don't know why I just did that. I never do that Right, and so if you think about resentment and feeling unwilling to forgive, what are we really stuck in Judgment? So, knowing that you're so good at holding space for other people, at not judging other people, tell me a time when you've been stuck in judgment of what something someone else did to you, judgment of what something someone else did to you. So I will say, on my journey, I'm in the work and I thought I've done the work and I arrived, you know, started my own business in 2012 because I'd done the work and I want to help everyone else do the work. I have this vision and I don't know if it's a real thing. That happened in cartoons when we were younger, but they would get like splashed on the floor and then they would like pick themselves up Like does anyone know that vision? Okay, that's where I feel like I am in my life right now. Next iteration of this healing and I've been with my husband 21 years and when I'm listening to, even today, people talk, I have never been loved so well. Like I, even recently, have said to him I'm really hard to love right now and I'm in awe of how you're loving me and I'm in awe of how you're loving me. He's probably the person because he'll often say to me I feel like you're judging me, you know, and that's the easiest right when you know he's going to still love you. Oh yeah, I can do all those things that I tell everyone not to do, or I preach and say that I don't do, right there. So I think that I would say in the last three years, I thought we had a really good relationship. Three years I thought we had a really good relationship. We were the couple that we met in the city and we sat at a bar and we went deep right away and he's so deep and I couldn't imagine not having those conversations all the time at dinner, still to this day. It's what went on today. There's a depth there for us and he's the one that I think I judge the most and that's been and he calls me out on it and I think I've learned a lot in these, I think our relationship in the last three years. So we have my son's going to college in two weeks as a freshman, my daughter's going to be a senior in high school, which is wild, it's just going to be the two of us.

Speaker 1: 9:30

And we started going to therapy three years ago because I felt like there were these old patterns that we just couldn't get out of. And he was like I'm game, I love growing. And he says like he loves just me enjoying life. He's a music guy, he loves experiences. I'm like you go, go out, I'll go read my book, you know I'm. I like, just like having my own space, my own time, the quiet, especially after raising the kids for 18 years. And he says therapy is like the. I love Broadway. So he's like it's like my Broadway show, I love watching, you go and enjoying.

Speaker 1: 10:03

So that's what therapy became for us and I think that I learned that I really judged him there but there was a lot of reasons why and we had to come out of old patterns because of you know we've been together now for 25 years, married 21,. You know, there's a lot of things when you meet at 25 years old and the version that I wanted or the life that I wanted, evolved, you know. And so does that answer your question? Yeah, and I want you to get specific, like I want to know one thing that was a big thing that you learned that you were judging him over, that you were holding resentment toward him over, I think, feeling unacknowledged acknowledgement for me of whatever I was feeling. So if I was calling him out on a certain behavior or a certain tone or the way he was as a father, or the way he wasn't there for me he was really good at talking the talk, but I just never there was a point.

Speaker 1: 11:10

We were on a hike somewhere here in California, so I don't know where I am in California. I've been here six years and he said something to me. He's like you know. I just want to say I acknowledge the way that this made you feel. Specifically, it was one of the nights that we were out and he was drinking. We were both drinking and I just saw like something in his eye that there was like a disconnect for me and I didn't feel safe and he was like that's ridiculous. I was, you know, like we had a glass of wine or two. You know, it wasn't anything like we weren't doing anything wild and crazy, but there was something for me that I felt unsafe. And he was he's like you're always safe with me, but I needed him to acknowledge it. And he just on that hike, said I just want you to know, I'm sorry, I, I hear you, and that changed our whole relationship and I didn't understand why. And it broke down all these barriers and all these walls. And I think that I've learned in these last three years. That's a really important thing for me and I didn't know that.

Speaker 1: 12:14

Does that answer your question? You want more specific? No, that was amazing. Yeah, yeah, does that come from somewhere? Is that historical somewhere? Is that historical? I am the youngest of four children and I know how to take care of myself and I'm going to make sure that I create my own path. I'm not going to follow in the three siblings ahead of me. That's how I created my own path was oh, that's what you do. Okay, I'm gonna do this. You all went here, I'm gonna go here. And it looked and smelled really good because look at her, go and she's this strong, independent woman and it was all a protection method and it's all crumbling and it continues to crumble. So so the thing that you really needed when you were young. You're now sometimes not feeling with him and you're realizing how important that is to you, but he's also meeting you in that space. Yes, I'm literally imagining me having this conversation with my husband and the resistance I would get. So it's, it's. I mean, I'm I'm so thrilled that you guys could continue to grow and evolve like that.

Speaker 1: 13:37

I say to people like you have three things right Love, safety and belonging are the three things that we need to survive in this world. And whenever I think of what my biggest trigger is, it's always safety Physically, spiritually, emotionally, it's all about safety. If I think of, like, my biggest fears, it's how do I get safe in all those areas? And I'm learning. I just assume that was everybody and it's not. You know something when I asked that question, it's belonging. Belonging, it's to feel loved.

Speaker 1: 14:07

I thought I had belonging and love was like easy for me, you know, and I'm sure if I dig deeper, that's not the case. But safety is my number one, so I need to feel safe. So the minute I feel unsafe and it couldn't be the simplest thing of you know, like the other day I was like I can't hear something's along my, he's like you're fine, I'm like I'm not fine. I was like I can't hear Some things are going on. He's like you're fine, I'm like I'm not fine. I was like I need to be acknowledged and I like washed my face really fast, I'm just going to go for a walk. And I was, and he knew it. You know, I just need to, and that's a newer thing, that's evolving, that I didn't realize. But a hundred percent, all of my protection systems are coming down in every which way.

Speaker 1: 14:45

I always thought that's been the work I've been doing, but layer by layer it can shore down. Yeah, well, I always say like we don't graduate from our spiritual curriculum here on Earth. I think there's this feeling, you know, like, haven't I suffered enough? When do I get my degree and start living in my destiny? You know, happy, joyous and free? You know, I think the real question and sort of why I do the work I do is whatever's in front of me. If I see it as a spiritual test, then I'm either going to fail the test and I don't say that with judgment, but I'm either going to slide back into an old behavior and stay in the same destiny that I've been in, or the test is going to force me to expand my spiritual vessel such that I shift to a new destiny, and for me that's what all of this work is right. So it's fine if I'm not willing to forgive somebody yet, it's okay. But I'm going to stay where I've been and I'm going to get exactly what I've gotten. So what will it take for me to expand this container that I'm in so that I cultivate the willingness?

Speaker 1: 16:13

Right, and it's interesting because I'm listening to you and I'm thinking okay, so when your husband says or does something and how many of us can relate to this right with a partner, they say or do something where you don't feel seen or heard or safe or acknowledged, and you immediately get defensive, right, right, I mean, this happens all the time, and so in that moment, in defense, there's not a willingness. We're in like fight or flight, right, it just swords out. You're not going to do this to me. I don't feel safe, I have to protect myself from you, right, and then the hope is that we become so conscious that we go oh, it's happening again. I feel it in my body, I hear it in the way I'm speaking to him or her. This is not where I want to live, right?

Speaker 1: 17:03

And so, in your case, now that there's been that breakthrough and he was able to acknowledge you, you had a moment and then you knew I need to go do something with this and about this. I need to reestablish a sense of safety, right, yeah. And then communicate to your partner hey, I didn't feel safe just now. I took it on you, I got you offensive, I'm sorry, right. This is how we clean things up, like we're not gonna do this thing perfectly yeah right, can I share something?

Speaker 1: 17:35

absolutely so he got upset with me randomly last week, silly, like some things. All he said was I was just fucked up, you know, and I was like we're leaving, like crazy. I'm telling you I'm going to her place. And he was like where are you going? And I like took the key out of his car, out of his pocket. I got in the car and get in the car and he goes. I just want you to know I love you so much. Oh, never leaving you. Like he said he doesn't even remember saying these things. It was like who is this man? Can you bring him to the next? I used committed.

Speaker 1: 18:14

I have to say, like I know when there are people so again raising my 18 year old son and my 17 year old daughter, uh, you see, like my son definitely has my wiring, my daughter has more his wiring I like to say that they have the best best of both of us, uh, but he, it's like when he sees a problem, it's like, oh, this is awesome, I love it. Like gonna put my sleeves up and we're going to get in there. I'm like, oh, I see a problem. Is this going to be easy for me? Because you know what I've been gifted with a lot of things that are easy for me. You know, growing up I was a social kid. I was an athlete. I could sing. You know I could play the piano. I just sing. You know I could play the piano. I just played, you know, like little things. I didn't put my all into all these things, but things just came naturally to me. But the minute I had to fight a little bit harder, my wiring is I'm out, and so he is just that love, like he'll say, like the parenting music. I love parenting, I can't wait, like, and he's like I love parenting. I can't wait like, and he's like I always wanted to parent and we get in bed. We're like that was so fun and I'm like that was.

Speaker 1: 19:22

He's a very. It's a wiring that I'm enamored by. That I really do believe is a gift of his, and that he consistently fine-tunes, because he loves the work just as much as we all love the work. So he is committed to…. Oh, no, here, use this. Okay, I would say that I always was like this self-seeker wanting to grow, and then he was like all right, but since I'm married to him, I might as well join in. I was just saying to you, like I plant the seeds but he makes them grow and he is like I want to move to California. He's like, all right, this is great. He's like the happiest thing here and I'm like wait, I miss my family back. You know, like he's just, I don't know, I don't know. I did not expect to talk about prying at go, but here we are, so okay, last thing. And then we have something really special happening to close the night out.

Speaker 1: 20:21

Um, what you just said, which was that reaction that you had? You got angry. I mean, if forget about like willingness to forgive, like you got so angry so fast and he just doused you with love and, by the way, that's incredible, right, I mean, we can only hope to have a partner like that. And, yeah, and I do want to share because I'm not giving, in my head, my husband enough credit. Yeah, and I do want to share because I'm not giving, in my head, my husband enough credit. He's tough, I mean, we are so different and he's not as gentle in the way you're describing your husband, at least my perception of him. However, one of the most amazing things he does to disarm me, and I want you guys to take this with you, because we'll do it to kids, but we don't do it to each other, which is when you see somebody defensive and they're pissing you off by the way, they're not actually being nice to you. I'm not talking about a stranger, someone you love. What if you said do you need a hug right now? I mean, we know the science of hugging, and if you don't, you hold a hug for 20 seconds. You release all the feel-good chemicals that you get when you do drugs. We don't get enough hugs every day, right? So not only are we not getting, we're not giving them either, and they're free.

Speaker 1: 22:01

That's kind of like what your husband said, right, like he doused you with love in that moment. So were you able to course correct? Were you able to be like I'm sorry, like what happened? That quickly, because you're super defensive, he disarms you. And then what? Like you left me hanging there, like what happened? So finish that story. Yeah Well, what do you think happened? You cried I'm waiting by myself for six hours and disappeared. Ah, yes, Okay, and that first, that first it was six hours, it used to be six days, and what I realized in that moment is why I was so upset was because he was so disappointed in me and I said to him you're a disappointment.

Speaker 1: 22:46

I protected myself from people being disappointed in me. So because he said that he loved me and that he's never leaving, it allowed me to access this place of what it feels like Probably for the first time. People are disappointed in me and it's a pain that I never want to experience and I allow myself to experience that pain and I had to process it and I had to still process it by myself. The goal is for me to co-regulate with him and not just self-regulate. But I came back.

Speaker 1: 23:20

He went to the beach by himself. He didn't call me Usually, like he'll chase. He's like, oh, is this the part where I'm supposed to chase you? Like he's so good about it. But he didn't. And I came back and I said I realized why I was angry. Something happened before we got into that car that had nothing to do with you. I did not know how to communicate with you or I didn't really want to go there. I didn't want to acknowledge the pain that that caused me. So it was easier to come at you and by you creating the safe space for me that you were never, that I didn't even know that I needed it allowed me to also open up that place of what it feels like when you are disappointed in me, and that it gutted me. And I have to learn that he's like I'm going to be, we're going to be disappointed in each other and I'm like, and I have to learn how to be able to tolerate that. Yeah, yeah, give it up for Pam. Oh my God, so dead. I love you, yes.

Speaker 2: 24:29

Yes, I can hit my head against the wall. Don't need a crucifix to take me to my knees. Whipping my mistakes to jump over the grief. Breaking the circuit, making it worth it. Sick and tired of the voice inside my head, never good enough, it's leaving me for dead. But perfection's just a game of make-believe. Gotta break the pattern, find a new reprieve. Breaking the circuit.

Speaker 3: 25:12

Making it worth it all. I am ready to make a change. I am bigger than my pain. There's no deep inside.

Speaker 2: 25:32

I got left aside. I can be brave and afraid at the same time. Practice of compassion starts to calm my mind, taking tiny steps to loving all of me. Just the process, cause it's gonna set me free, breaking the circuit.

Speaker 3: 25:57

Making it worth it all. I am ready to make a change. I am bigger than my pain. There's no deep inside I got nothing like. There's no deep inside. I got nothing like. Gotta gotta gotta break it or fake it till we make it. Gotta gotta gotta break it. Come on One, two gotta breathe. Come on One, two, three. I am ready to make a change. I am bigger than my pain. There's no deep inside I got nothing like. I am ready to make a change. I am bigger than my pain. There's an oar deep inside. I got left alive.