Your Relapse Is A Nervous System Story with Lisa Arrigo

Your relapse story might not be about “lack of willingness” at all. It might be your nervous system doing its job the only way it learned how: pushing you toward anything that creates a fast hit of safety. I’m joined by Lisa Arrigo, a New York licensed clinical social worker, psychotherapist, trauma specialist, and recovering addict, for a candid conversation about what changes when we stop treating addiction like a moral problem and start treating it like a trauma-informed, nervous system problem.

We talk about why AA and 12-step recovery can be lifesaving for community and structure, and why it can still fall short for people living with complex PTSD, dissociation, and deep attachment wounds. Lisa breaks down how the brain and body respond to threat, what the window of tolerance looks like in real life, and why “knowing better” isn’t enough when the prefrontal cortex goes offline. We also dig into shame as a physiological experience, how it gets wired early, and why compassionate curiosity paired with radical responsibility can change the relapse loop.

You’ll leave with practical, simple somatic tools you can use immediately: feet-on-the-floor grounding, posture and breath cues, hand-on-heart support, and orienting to present-day safety. We close by naming a truth many of us avoid: healing happens in relationship, and real recovery includes learning how to stop outsourcing safety while still letting safe people in. If this helped you, subscribe, share it with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more people can find trauma-informed addiction recovery.

For more about Lisa:

https://www.lisaarrigo.com/

To book a FREE discovery call with Dr. Sam:

https://calendly.com/drharte/free-discovery-call-w-dr-harte

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back everybody to the truth about addiction. I'm really excited for you guys to hear this conversation. I'm at a point in my podcast now, which is really exciting by the way, because I've been doing it for four years, where almost every single day I get pitched for people to come on my show. And I've had lots of people come on who I know and lots of people who I've never met. This was a woman I had never met, but I love the work she's doing in the world. I'll read you her bio in a moment. If anybody listening is on a healing journey, I have absolutely no doubt that there will be at least one immediate tool you will be able to use from this episode that will make your life better. So please sit tight and receive. Lisa Origo is a New York licensed clinical social worker and a psychotherapist whose work focuses on trauma, attachment, addiction, and neurobiology. Drawing from both decades of clinical experience and her own lived journey, she helps people understand how survival patterns form in the body, in relationships, and across a lifetime. Lisa brings a compassionate, grounded perspective to conversations about healing, shame, nervous system regulation, and the lasting impact of early experience. You can imagine why I said yes. Here we go, guys. Enjoy. I have to screen through it and see if there's synergy and alignment in the way of what I am here to try and do on behalf of the listeners and especially on behalf of the people who are still suffering. And the woman I have here, who you just heard me give a more formal intro to, is exactly that person. I was just reviewing her stats, her bio, her website, the about me section, and there's so many words that she's using, and they're not accidental. It took me a really long time to reduce down the very human need that exists in all of us, not just addicts, that shows up again and again and again in our daily lives, and why we drop back into these survival patterns and unconscious behaviors, which is safety. She talked about safety on her about me section so much, and that word alone already tells me that our hearts are in the same place. Our mission is so aligned. And Lisa Arrigo, I cannot wait for you to come on here. By the way, you guys, she just disclosed to me that this is the first podcast she's doing, and I hope it's the first of many. I am so glad to be the one to hold you through this experience because you are always holding everybody else. Welcome, Lisa, to the show.

SPEAKER_05 4:00

Well, thank you. Thank you, Dr. Samet. Thank you for holding such a beautiful space for me. I feel it already. And that's that is both a relief and quite magical. So uh thank you so much for giving me this opportunity. And um, you know, we had, as we discussed a few minutes ago, um we're not really sure where we're gonna go. I'm not sure where we're gonna go today, but wherever we go, um, we're gonna hit on those golden nuggets of truth. Yes. And more than anything else, my hope is that the listener um gets curious about his or her own lived experience. Um, I'm coming on this show as um uh a licensed clinical social worker. Um I consider myself a trauma specialist. I've done tremendous trainings uh that incorporate the body. I've done more traditional trainings on trauma. Um, so it is my wheelhouse and it is my passion. Um, I'm also a recovering addict. And I've had my struggles with my own addiction, even after learning all this stuff about addiction and trauma and healing, um, that as resilient as we are is as fragile as we are. And what I've learned in my work with clients and in my own personal work is that, you know, the more we understand, the more we understand and get curious about what's happening inside, you know, what is our body communicating? How did these maladaptive patterns of behavior, whether it's drinking, using cocaine, you know, process addiction, whatever it is, self-sabotage, how did they help us survive? And in my experience, a lot of people that come in, they come in kind of beaten down, like they've done a lot of work, but they still find themselves in shame. They find themselves stuck in an old pattern, they uh self-criticism, self-loathing, self-judgment. Um, you know, and and they get stuck in these places and then they start to feel like there's something really wrong with them, that they can't get better, or they they end up in a system where they're pathologized, right? And it actually ends up being a reenactment of childhood experiences, right? You're not smart enough, you're not good enough, you're not blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So um, so I have found that when people understand like how our bodies protect us, you know, and how these um strategies, you know, whether they be um overeating or dissociation, they actually keep us alive and well and growing long enough until we can hit those places in our lives where we can really understand what is actually happening in my nervous system right now. You know, how do I track that so that I can learn how to work with my body, with my mind, with my soul, with my people to um to write a new story.

AA Helped Yet Shame Stayed

Complex Trauma And Parts At War

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Yes. I mean, there's just so much head nodding going on. If you guys are not able to watch this on YouTube, you're gonna wish you could because I I'm I'm just sitting here going, oh, you know, where were you when I was one, two, three, four, five years sober? I mean, I am your perfect patient. And I say perfect in quotations, right? Because I'm very much a recovering perfectionist. Lisa did a deep dive on my social media before coming on here. So she she's heard a lot of the things that I have spoken very candidly about, including, you know, in some ways, the the ways the 12 steps saved my life and also almost killed it. And I don't say any of that to knock the program, though Lisa, I am super curious what your feelings are about the 12-step program and whether you're inside of it now, you've gone to it, you don't go to it anymore. Because I had a lot of shame more recently over the last several years, that I don't actually regularly attend the meetings as if I'm some kind of fraud coming out here and trying to do it differently. And also, when you kind of grow up in recovery in those rooms, it is the worst thing ever if you stop going. I mean, there's all kinds of ideas about, you know, meeting makers make it. And and you know, this is the beginning of a relapse and all this sort of terror around not going. And the truth for me is that AA was but a start. It was the beginning of something, the community element, feeling like you can go in, hopefully, and not be judged and feel in deep communion with other people, like you have survived the same shipwreck, is something extremely special. And in the age of AI, having a place to go, especially if it's in person, where you get that feeling of connection, I think is fantastic. I do miss that. And I'm always able to go and access it if I choose to. But the program itself in traditional AA, I'm not talking about adult child of an alcoholic or the more progressive programs that do talk about reparenting your inner child and the nervous system, those are a lot more resonant with me, but no one told me about them. I wasn't exposed to them. And here I was trudging through sobriety, kicking and screaming at the idea of getting down with God, because that was going to dismantle every childhood belief that kept me safe. And instead of somebody meeting me there, yes, because though they're not clinical psychologists in AA, they're just ordinary folks who are like, shut up, do the steps, stop complaining. You're self-centered, you're in your ego. Meanwhile, they're just reinforcing the shame, as you said, the self-loathing that I was carrying around. That it is a miracle, didn't kill me. It's a miracle that I survived those first five years without a relapse. Now, was I was I sober? Yes. Was I happy? Was I free? Did I have peace in my heart? No. Right. And my life and my healing didn't begin until very fortunately, I was in so much pain and desperation, but I didn't want to die that I was willing to consider doing the steps in this other way. And the truth is, when I look back now, because now I'm 17 years sober, so this is 12 years ago. I have been in so much therapy, I have done so much personal development. So the thing is, you know, AA is one thing, but there's a lot of healing modalities that are available to us in 2026. So I'm dabbling in all of them. And when I got well, it was actually this infusion of some of the principles of IFS, internal family systems, yeah, yeah, and neuroscience and behavioral change and identity evolution, and this idea that I could step into a version of myself that was worthy of love and forgiveness, that I could actually stand down in this nervous system pattern of hypervigilance and performance and perfectionism long enough to re-establish in my body a sense of safety. Yes. That was untethered from that pattern and start anew. And it's unbelievable because at the time I'm just thinking, oh my God, why didn't anyone just take me through the steps in a wider container? Why didn't anyone ever say, yes, powerlessness over drugs and alcohol? Yes. But also now that you're in the business of living and you're substance free, what about powerlessness over other things? You're death gripping. Right. Right. And so, so this sort of backdoor into recovery is actually what I'm trying to do, which which happens to merge so deeply with psychoanalytic principles, neuroscience, nervous system, and behavioral change. And it's just so fascinating, right? That yeah, that they actually go together. So I'm so curious, like, yep, what do you what is your feeling in 2026 about the 12-step program? And do you have personal experience inside of it?

SPEAKER_05 12:48

Yes, yes. Um, I do have personal experience. Um, I share some of your feelings and sentiments about the program. Um when I was first getting clean, it was uh, I think it was 2000. Um and I had a group of women around me in the program who were just amazing. And the community for me was something that I desperately needed. So um I was so addicted, and I was so um my addiction was was so powerful at that time that the women actually um instructed me to park my car north and not south, because after a meeting, if I was parked south, I would be more likely to be on the West Side Highway going down to New York to get my drugs. And if I parked north, I'd be more likely to get home. Right. So at the beginning, that kind of, you know, kind of like soft, like mothering, hey, you know, you know, why don't you try this? Yeah. Right. Um, and I was so starved, I felt so alone and I felt so much shame. And um, I didn't know where else to go, but but 12-step. You know, I I then started a course in psychoanalysis, which was a whole different experience, which I probably won't get into here. But in terms of 12-step, I think that um it I've seen people get really well. For some people, it just like a like a key and a in a door lock, it just fits. Um, and they're able to organize their lives around the structure, the container of the program. I think for people who have like myself, and um not sure if this is your challenge. Complex trauma. Uh yeah, complex trauma, right? Um, yep, I did see that in your one of your posts. Um, you know, it gets more complicated, right? Because I believe, and I see this in my practice, that, you know, when there's complex PTSD, right, the psyche splits, right? That's you know, you talk about IFS. Um, I like Janina Fisher's model of you know, trauma-informed therapy because she incorporates parts work, but it's a little bit different. Um, she's you should really check her out. She's awesome. I will check her out. But you know, it's sort of like, you know, when there's that fragmentation, you're and it's not like that person has like, like I didn't have altars, I didn't have DID, but I had survival parts.

SPEAKER_03 15:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 15:20

So if you look at what is known, if I get too technical, just tell me to cut it off. The structural dissociate dissociation model, right? So we all can check out. And we need to have that, you know, that skill set because we can't be on all the time. But we know that when there's trauma, kids, adults, they become really good at dissociating and then they just dissociate at the very whiff, you know, of something potentially happening, right? So in the structural dissociation model, there is the left brain, which is natural split, left right hemisphere. The left brain governs reason, um, logic, and the right brain houses all the messy emotional stuff. Right. So then over time, when there's ongoing um attachment wounds, unsafety, trauma, you know, the right brain splits into fight, flight, freeze, submit, attach, reach. And fight, flight is the addictive part. So if you're not understanding, if you have complex PTSD and you're looking, you know, to AA, there are gonna be parts of you that are gonna be like, you know, these people like, you know, peace out. Yep. Right. It doesn't, it doesn't take into consideration the complexities of trauma, um, nervous system dysregulation. Um, it was written by some white guys in the 1920s and 30s, right? So I think it does have a place. Uh for me, it was the community and also the CBT part. Like if you leave the spiritual part out for a moment, good orderly direction, a lot of it is cognitive behavioral therapy, right? But there's so many places where people get triggered and then they relapse and they come back and it's like, wow, day one, you know, thanks for taking a bullet for me. But you're you're missing the point. Like, unless you can get curious about every relapse and like, gee, what is how why am I continuing to do this when I have all this support and I have a higher power and I have steps and I have a program of recovery? So then you feel like you're failing AA. So what's the point, right? Of continuing. And some people never come back, and some people die, or they die in the rooms.

Relapse As Nervous System Hijack

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Yes, yes. I want I want you to talk more about this. And I I also know that somatic work is is important to you, and it's also become really important to me, being someone who was trained in a very Western way on the body, but who has this entire experience, lived experience, and quite frankly, a caseload as a clinician of evidence, of anecdotal evidence, if you will, that the trauma gets stuck and that there has to be something that's done, even if it's just a conversation, to put it on somebody's radar about that part, because I would be remiss to just treat your knee injury when you have this entire presentation of stress and trauma. Not that it's my job as a clinician to go back into their trauma, right? But certainly to identify the ways in which old patterns and behaviors are showing up in the present and perhaps getting in the way of their present goal of solving their knee pain and going on a run again. So I do want to talk about somatics, but yeah, that part about relapse, if if you could capture what you think the root of relapse actually is, because you you kind of said it, but for the person who has that experience, you know, I don't know why I didn't relapse. It is a miracle that I did not relapse in those five years, and frankly, a bunch of other times with the level of tragedy I've had to overcome. And boy, have I slipped back into you want to talk about attachment wounds. Ooh, my anxious attachment, my codependency issues are the root of so much of my pain. And only in the last two years, at 17 years sober, am I actually strong enough to start looking at it and start healing it. So if we were to look at this presentation of an addict who is chronically relapsing, they're going to traditional AA and now they're feeling like a failure. They're they're doing all the things that are being suggested. As a clinician in your lane with what you are an expert at, what would you sort of say is at the heart? Obviously, it's different person to person, but is it this sense that they're re there something's happening at different times, whether it's in the room, working with the sponsor, out in the world, there is a trigger. Yeah, taking them back into a past state where they felt deeply unsafe and they do not have the skills yet at that point, because AA is not trauma informed, that they that the only thing in that moment that makes them feel safe is getting high again.

SPEAKER_05 20:50

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

Is that is that fair to say?

SPEAKER_05 20:53

Yeah. I mean, I think what would you add to that? Yeah, I think that's I think that's fair to say. I think that um, you know, when I work with relapsers, you know, and I um not a first-time winner myself, um I think the most important thing is to uh understand that relapse is part of recovery. Yep. Relapse is part of recovery, it's not a failure. It's part of that process. And um, in my experience, um, when people can start getting curious rather than being critical, like gee, you know, I'll use myself myself as an example. I'll go back to that meeting in 2000. Gee, you know, I went to this AA meeting and I shared and I felt so good with my, you know, lady friends and I was hearing so much good stuff, right? And then I get in my car and there's this part of me that wants to take me into the city to s to to cop cocaine, right? So how do you explain that? You know? Um what I've come to learn is that, you know, and this is true for I think I think a lot of people have complex, you know, trauma, and um, and it's not it's not accurately diagnosed or addressed. Um because as humans, we we probably all have some complexity in our trauma histories, our attachment wounds, you know, how we soothe, how we weren't soothed, right? I find that with relapse, the first step is to get curious and not critical, and to understand that if you have a nervous system that is chronically dysregulated, that's probably your baseline, right? For years, you know, I was very, very, you know, successful. I worked hard, you know, um, I studied hard, right? But what I didn't know was that my nervous system, I was in hyperarousal all the time.

SPEAKER_03 22:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:00

But I was like right on that edge. So I could still function. Right. Yep. But then what happens as we, especially as we try to treat addiction, is that your your whole internal system gets like really like, what? You know, what is first off, you're you're being traumatized by a disease or an addiction that wants you dead, right? So there's that. So you have an addiction that's traumatizing you, and then you have all the shame of feeling not in control, right? Um, and in those moments, when the nervous system is dysregulated, um, it takes so little. For me, it could have been, you know, these women are so nice to me, and that's a missing experience because the women in my life growing up weren't so nice to me. So even something good activate the nervous system in a way that's confusing, right? Trauma does not know time. Trauma gets encoded differently, it gets encoded differently through the hippocampus. People who have early trauma and trauma that has that has followed them through their lifetime have an amygdala, which is the fire center of the brain, right? Right, that idles really high. So toast burning in the oven can signal to the amygdala fire, fire, fire, danger, danger, danger, right? And if you're not mindful and if you're not sort of knowing this about yourself and checking it out, you could be, you know, grabbing the kids and the dogs and running out of your house because there's toast burning in the oven, because your body is registering danger. So I find that when people understand, you know, how exquisitely attuned their nervous systems are to protect them, um, and how they don't know that it's 2026. There's something called the window of tolerance, and I give this to my clients because optimally, and none of us are in the middle all the time. The optimal, you probably are familiar with this, right? The optimal window of tolerance, right, is like hyper-arousal is here where the sympathetic nervous system idles high, and then the parasympathetic nervous system idol low. So there are people that will spike up, yeah, get really anxious and panicky, and there'll people that'll just collapse and go to bed, right? Right. So being somewhere in the middle, you know, allows you to think and feel at the same time, right? Part of the problem with relapse and addiction is the thinking brain goes offline. Like it doesn't matter how many times the story never is always the same story when you pick up when you, whether it's a drink or a drug, it never ends well.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 25:44

It's the same story. But when you're in an emotional state, and it may not, it be, it may be totally somatic memory, it could be anything that's not being properly tracked or or noted. Um, you know, it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that first line or that first drink. It's like, oh, you know, and then the addict ends up or the alcoholic ends up chasing that drink or that drug, you know, right into the ground.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 26:15

So it am I am I doing a uh am I clear enough in my description of it?

Shame Lives In The Body

SPEAKER_00 26:20

Yes, and I I I have so many follow-up questions before I ask questions about the nervous system, because again, this is you know, in my new wellness center that I'm sitting in right now, right? The grand opening was less than a week ago on the window where people can drive by to see what happens in here. And I was nervous to do this because I could just put physical therapy, fitness, events, workshops, and I might make a small sign that goes on the sidewalk that says that, right? Very palatable, very easy to understand. But instead, what I put on my window are three things curated movement, nervous system regulation, identity level transformation. That is what I care about now. That is the stuff that has changed my life, and for the person who kind of gets it or feels like, wait a second, that's who I want to attract into the space. So I have so much that I want to talk to you about about nervous system. So before that though, I just want to acknowledge when you talk about shame and curiosity, because after writing my book, I say something in the book, and I've said it on so many podcasts that I've been on, which is that another thing in AA that I heard all the time was resentment is the number one offender. And I I cannot help but think from my own lived experience, from watching my own sister die from an overdose, watching my first sponsor with 22 years sober relapse and kill himself and jump out of an eighth-story window, I can't help but think that untreated shame is the number one offender. I have not seen anything emotionally, mentally, spiritually speaking, more corrosive to the human spirit than untreated shame. And so when I try to talk about what my book is about, what my healing is about, what I'm trying to help others accomplish, I have to figure out ways to reduce it down because I cannot go through all 12 steps in a 30 or 60 minute conversation. So here's what I've done. And again, it's why I was like, Yes, I need to speak to Lisa on this on this podcast. The two, if if I were a human being that was sitting on a roof, a triangular roof, right, with a little right the tip at the top, and I was just sitting right at the top like a little kid with my legs straddled on both sides, and I was trying to figure out how to live life and live it joyfully. On one side where my left leg is dangling, I would be leaning into compassionate curiosity as often as humanly possible. Why did that just happen? Why did I just have that reaction? Huh. I just got, you know, I just got so frustrated, and I I I don't love how I how I just talk to my kid, but I also know if I shame myself, that's gonna end really, really badly. I've had a lot of experience doing that, so I'm not gonna do that, but I oh god, I haven't eaten in like six hours. I had a really bad night's sleep, I'm I'm about to open this wellness studio, I'm probably so stressed, and I I haven't fully processed that, and I actually just took it out. Oh, okay, and on the other side of the roof of this house is radical responsibility. Now that I understand, now that I'm out of shame and I'm in curiosity and I have this broader understanding of what just happened and why, what am I willing to do about it? So that when I get to my bed tonight, when I hit my head on the pillow, I can feel really proud of who I was and of the choices that I made. Yes, those are the two things from the 12 steps. They do a great job at the responsibility part. There's so much responsibility. You are you are the self-centered, self-seeking alcoholic. You are the problem now. Fix it, right? Right there, and it's a little, it's in my opinion, tipped a little too far in that direction for the people. And so many of us have it with complex trauma and PTSD. And so, and so if we could just straddle the tension with more compassion and and curiosity, I think that would be an absolute game changer, maybe for the relapse rate, but certainly for the the amount of people who are dying from this thing. Yeah, absolutely. So I just I just want to like I just want to sort of highlight that that that is a big part of your work and your lived experience and your training. And I just cannot emphasize to the person who's listening how unbelievably important it is to be in the presence of someone, something that you trust enough to help you feel not just less alone, but less ashamed. That you have someone who can help you separate who you are from what you have done or what has been done to you. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 31:50

That's right. You know, I talk a lot about safety. Um you know, and um I think what what I hear when I when I listen to you share about this, um you know, we want to be seen. We want to be seen. We want to be met in those places. Um you know, those are the missing experiences for many of us. You know, um, and not to not to go back and and beat up on AA, but um there's not enough room to be seen as you are, yeah. With all of your beauty, with all of your warts, with all of your complexity, with all of your resilience, with all of your fragility, with all the things that make you uh uniquely you right, uh your potential, the gifts that you give to the world, the places where you hold back. Right? Right. So um, you know, that for me is the antidote to shame. Like, you know, um am I worth seeing? You know, um, or tell me a different story about myself than the one the the the one that I'm carrying because shame starts, as you know, in the body. It's a physiological experience. And if you if you work with different modalities like sensory motorcycle therapy or somatic experiencing, they will you know help you and guide you to where where are you holding shame? Where in your body are you holding shame? Or what part of you is holding the shame, right? Because I have a very strong inner critic and a very big part of me that you know I'm working on it, but can go to shame, right? I also have another part that could be really kind of grandiose and judgy, like right. Um, so you know, there's such, you know, it's it's a beautiful thing to allow yourself to um in a safe place uh reveal and become more transparent and let um whoever's working with you help you locate that shame and move it out because the trauma of the shame, the uh and and shame is adaptive, it doesn't start out as a terrible thing. But what ends up happening is when a kid isn't met and a parent continues to shame them, right? That or says, oh, you know, stop doing you know, stop throwing your toys around or your messy kid, whatever it is, you know, the physical, the even the pre-verbal turns into cognitive schemas as that child grows. It's like I'm a loser, I'm not smart enough, I'm not pretty enough, I'm not skinny enough, I'm unlovable, right? Yep. Um, and they get, you know, it's it becomes something that lives in your hard drive, right? So and it's in the body. So in my experience, um understanding it as a natural adaptive feeling like anything else, and working with it, yeah, because it can feel so devastating, um, gives a person a little bit more, you know, uh authority over it and and the ability to speak back to it. Yes, the ability to speak back to it. You know, um, but it's very tender work, it's very brave work. But when when I uh am in the presence of people who are doing this work, um I see the transformation and it it doesn't sometimes it doesn't take a long time. You know, back in the good old days, I'm dating myself, but it was talk therapy, talk therapy, right? Yeah, you could talk about your trauma like for 25 years, you know, and not change a damn thing.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

I know lots of people who are doing that, right?

SPEAKER_05 36:00

Right, and then they're like, Well, I've been to therapy a hundred times, it doesn't work. Well, maybe it's not the right, you know, um, form of treatment. I was in psychoanalysis for 10 years on the couch, my analyst sitting behind me. I have significant attachment trauma. I can't see her. I'm lying down, she's behind me four days a week on the couch. I thought we were doing great. She retired, I relapsed two days later. Wow, right? So I don't mean to go off on it on a bit of a tangent, but but the point that I really want to make about this is that there are so many amazing with with the pairing of neuroscience and these new um ways of treating trauma, you know, um that involve the body, um, things can move rather quickly, which doesn't mean that they always move quickly. Um but working with the body allows the dislodging and the reorganization of of the experience in a way that changes the story, which doesn't mean you're never gonna feel shame again. But when that shame comes up, it's not gonna have the same charge to it. It's like, oh yeah, there's the shame. Yep. I know what that is. Yes. But you don't have to pick up a drink or a drug over it.

Head Versus Body In Healing

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Right. You know, I what I what I want to get into with the nervous system, and I'm so curious about where you where your stance is on this. When I look at the journey of my healing, it it was absolutely mind first, and then body came much, much later. I am convinced today that starting with the body is actually more effective. Absolutely. So when I had that experience with the 12 steps, and I the woman I worked with turned the amends process on to me. That was that moment where someone gave me permission to consider a new identity. That that is exactly what I needed in that moment. That I didn't know I was even allowed to be a woman who made all those terrible decisions and still be lovable, yes, and still be in a deeply happy and fulfilling marriage, which I wasn't at the time. I didn't know that I was allowed, and so I used that as an invitation to step into what would that have to be? And so it was an extremely cognitive process, you know, for for many, many weeks and months after that, I became so conscious of the way I was speaking to myself, and I kept lovingly and politely interrupting that inner critic and saying, I know why you're here, I know you're trying to protect me. You've done such a good job. Thank you very much. But but but right now you're you're you're hurting me really badly, and I I just need you to try and trust me that we we get to have done all the things that we did and actually become something new anyway, in the face of it. And and so, since we're trying to become someone who loves and forgives herself, we're gonna have to speak to ourselves differently than than that. Yes, and then so then she sort of stood down for a moment, and then I had to think about what I would say instead of the thing I just said, which is basically in this marital crisis, you know, this is what you fucking get for what you did, Sam. That's that's what she kept saying over and over, and right, and so then I had to think about the new self-compassionate talk, and uh and and and it this happened again and again and again, many, many times throughout the day, over many days and many weeks. So it was extremely cognitive, yeah, but it was still science. I was interrupting an old pattern, yeah, and I was creating a new one and reinforcing the feedback loop of that. Yes, it would be so many more years before I even had a felt sense of safety in my body, and I think it actually started in yoga, which when I moved to LA, you know, I had some die-hard yogi friends that pulled me over into, you know, a really popular yoga class on the west side, you know, a couple blocks from the Pacific Ocean. And when everybody let out a big sigh, my whole nervous system shot up and judged and thought, what the fuck are you people doing right now? Like, who are you kidding to let out a sound like that from your body in front of anybody, by the way? What is wrong with you? How dare you be so relaxed? I was just hostile. Okay. And it was years before I went back into yoga and I found this studio right around the corner from my original wellness space that had no mirrors. Now I grew up dancing, performing. I had to be the best, the best, the prettiest, the skinniest. No pressure. And so this place having no mirrors, who knew, was gonna be the beginning of my body coming home to itself. Wow, there was this infrared heat, so it was not swampy, but it was just enough heat for me to really start sweating, and I felt like the only way I can put this is that my body could cry when my eyes couldn't. Yes, yes, yes, I started to feel like yoga was this dance just for me. It was like there was no pleasing, there was no performing, yeah, there was just me and my body and my breath, and and heaven forbid, I could actually in the middle of a fitness class, I could get in child's pose and do absolutely nothing. And and you're telling me that's still yoga? Like that that's actually advanced yoga to stop myself from having to finish and finish at the top. And so that like I'm now yoga certified. It is it is a huge part of my life, it is a part of what I teach people, it is a one of many vehicles for nervous system regulation. But holy cow, that came so long after. Yes, it is all up in my head. And as I was reopening this space, I just kept thinking, you know, my business name with the state of California, you know, even says an integrative wellness center for the mind, body, and spirit. And I haven't changed it, but the more I think about it, I'm like, wait a second, not that anyone surface level is maybe paying this much attention, but I am. I'm like, I don't actually think that's the order. I don't actually think that's the order. I think the faster way into change is to drop into the body because the body is going to reveal everything that's going on up here. And we get to move the energy and the trauma as we are. Uncovering and that is its own skill set. And there are times where I feel scared, right? Coming from this Western medicine lens where we didn't do. I mean, yeah, I have a doctorate, I have a fancy degree, but we did not talk about nervous system anything. Graduate school. And so this is more of a postdoctoral training, you know, getting my continuing education and the things that I now am doubling down on that I'm really passionate about that I feel have changed my life. But when it comes to this part of healing that you obviously also feel really passionate about, you know, you're you're in the line of talking, but clearly you know too that the body keeps scores. So what's your take on the order of things? And knowing that the body and the nervous system is such a huge component to our healing. And when we don't address it, it can lead to relapse and death and dire consequences. How are you working that into your treatment sessions with your patients?

SPEAKER_05 45:12

I I think it's an interesting question. And you know, one of the thoughts that I had as you were sharing, Dr. Sam, is that, you know, I was thinking, well, maybe you needed that time in your head. Maybe you weren't ready to go to the body. And and I do see this with people as well, that it's so terrifying to go into the body, right? And you had a very strong, you know, very funny description of you in that yoga class, like you know, kind of like a like a trauma like fight response, like a fight fight, like totally I'm gonna get the fuck out of here. Like these people are crazy, right? So whenever we have a reaction that's not quite commensurate, you're in a yoga class, right? You know, and you want to kill everybody, you know, that means that it's revealing something that feels threatening to some part of you. So I would get curious, and I don't know, but I'm thinking, gee, well, you know, maybe if you tried to flip it around, maybe that wouldn't have worked so well for you. Maybe there was some intrinsic wisdom uh in starting with cognition, you know, the thing about cognitive behavioral therapies and um, you know, DBT, you know, they're great, right? And they work with your thoughts, right? And they don't really address the body. But when a person gets re-traumatized, their frontal lobes go offline or they start to flicker. So you could have all the tools and the skills and the self-talk and you know, all of that, you know, um, you know, reframing. But if your frontal lobes aren't engaged, forget about it. You know, you can't access the tools that you have. And and I find that for some people that I work with, like that becomes something that, you know, is really disturbing. It's like I've done all this work, you know, the work that you did with your with your mind and the cognition, and you know, and I find myself in this place and I had a fight with my husband, and and then I went out and I I ate three pints of ice cream. I don't even know why.

SPEAKER_03 47:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 47:34

Right. The frontal lobes go offline, whatever CBT skills you have are unavailable to you. The limbic system kicks in, the reptilian brain kicks in because it's it's it's registering danger, threat, danger, threat. And then the person is off to the races, yeah, right. Because they don't have, you know, their their left brain is, you know, dark, and and imaging uh will show this on a brain that's been traumatized. The whole region of the frontal lobes that that helps us think clearly and think things through goes dark. We don't have access to it.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

In those moments, if somebody had tools to emotionally regulate that were more somatic, do you think they would have a better chance?

SPEAKER_05 48:20

Absolutely. So somatic resourcing, that's where I go with those folks, right? Because yoga's too much. Meditation, forget about it. You know, you can't sit still. I, you know, if you can't sit still, you can't meditate. And then it just becomes one more thing. See, I can't even do meditation.

SPEAKER_03 48:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 48:38

Right.

SPEAKER_03 48:38

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 48:39

But, you know, and and for so many years, um, you know, I had therapists who gave me simple somatic resources to practice and use. And I'm like, this is ridiculous. You mean putting my feet on the floor is gonna make me feel better? It's gonna help my nervous system. So when you talked about straddling the roof, I was like, oh my god, Dr. Sam's feet aren't on the floor on the ground. Woo! Right? Um, so I mean, well, I could have gotten so into the weeds with you on that, but that's not for this podcast. That's amazing. That was my image. It's like she's not grounded. Which doesn't mean that you know, it was just how I was perceiving it. It may not be.

SPEAKER_00 49:26

But that's fascinating, actually. I love, I love actually the idea. If I were to take that, because that's more about the cognitive part. Yes. If I were to connect it with what I'm more interested in now, it would be an on the ground image, right? See on the ground, right? Feet on the ground, head in the sky with the sun shining down, curiously compassionate and radically responsible, right? That's that's sort of the more current reflective image of where I'm going as a practitioner.

Grounding Tools You Can Use Today

SPEAKER_05 49:57

Exactly. Exactly. But even more basic than that, because I did this before we got on this call because I was afraid my frontal lobes were going to go offline and I was gonna be an absolute disaster on my whole podcast. Which you are not at all, but no, I'm not. And I'm but but grateful for that. Thank you. Um, but I knew that I needed to work with my nervous system because there are parts of me that are like, what if she doesn't like me? What if I don't sound smart enough? What if I can't have my what if my thoughts aren't coming out clearly? What if I have a panic attack? Like, oh my God, like what the Fity F, right? So I decided, all right, you know what? There's nothing wrong with simple tools. You know, sometimes we think harder's better. Or if it's not like three steps to nervous system regulation, then it's bullshit, right? But really, what the only thing I did before getting on this call, I did say a prayer. Not that I'm a religious person, but I was like, please help me channel the words that will help somebody, you know, think about something to make an impact. Because my book and everything that I'm doing, my life's work right now is not just about me. Yeah, you know, I've had a lot of people in my life show me so much grace and kindness and care and generosity. And um it's my turn to give that back. So, so, but I have to, you know, I have to be clear about that. Please help me, you know, message this in a way that that reaches, you know, the listener who, even if it's one little thing that someone takes away, I've done my job. Yes, right.

SPEAKER_03 51:38

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 51:39

So I grant I said a prayer, I grounded myself two feet on the ground, right? Sounds really silly, simple, but feet on the ground, push your heels into the floor so that you can feel the tension on the back of your calf. So it's like, okay, I know, I know my legs and my feet are on the ground, but I'm actually gonna feel that tension, feel how the the floor is supporting me right now, right? So let me feel that tension. Let me vertically align my spine, right? So if I'm sitting like this, you know, and you look at me funny, I'm gonna go to shame. Right. And I'm not breathing. So vertically align the spine, open up the chest, right? You know this? Hand on heart, hand on gut, the second brain, right? A very tender physical way of showing yourself compassion and care that doesn't involve cognition.

SPEAKER_03 52:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 52:35

It's the release of oxytocin.

SPEAKER_03 52:38

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 52:38

Because now you got the love hormone, you know, the touch, you know, that sends a signal to the nervous system. Oh, we're safe. We're safe, right? Right. I might also look around the room. Okay, it's not 1976, and my parents aren't throwing punches at each other, you know, it's 2026, and I have two dogs sleeping next to me, and I am safe, and I am 59 years old. And no matter what happens on this podcast or doesn't happen on this podcast, it does not define me. And, you know, and I am not that little girl who's being, you know, judged or being, you know, um waiting for that gotcha moment, you know, like you, you know, you forgot to do this or you didn't do this right, or where's your homework, you know. Um, so I think that grounding, vertical alignment, breath, box breathing, four breaths in, hold, you know, four breaths out, hold, very effective, hand on heart, hand on belly. You know, I'll do this sometimes when I'm in a meeting because no one has to know. Yeah, like if you're in a Zoom meeting, you know, you could do this very privately, but it's a wonderful resource, orienting for safety. Yep. You know, um, those are those are my four go-to somatic resources. So if someone is really like dysregulated and they can't think clearly, and they're starting to feel um, you know, like they're you know, falling into a rabbit hole, it's just like, okay, pause. Right here, right now, you're safe. Your body's remembering something. That's all that's happening. My biggest hope for every client that I see is that they come into my office one day and say, you know what? Ah shit, you know, I went to this meeting and I got triggered. Can you believe it? You know, that's all it is, right? But because our bodies don't know time, trauma doesn't know time, you know, we get hit all the time with it, could be the smell of something in the air that activates a somatic memory or a fragmented memory of something that doesn't fit into a cohesive narrative because it was a trauma memory and it wasn't encoded in a narrative. So people will say, Well, I don't remember, so it didn't happen, or I don't, you know, if you didn't remember, it was probably because it overrode your your nervous system and your brain's ability to process. So it gets strapped. Yep. And then it shows up in splintered pieces, you know, that we then have to get curious about and try to understand, you know, gee, what what is that, you know, why when when that yoga instructor looks at me a certain way, why do I get this hit in my solar plexus? You know, like what, you know, what's what is this alerting me to? You know, and staying curious about that, or saying, you know, that's interesting. I'll put a pin in that and maybe I'll work with my body a little bit later. I'll do some stretching. I'll ask my solar system, my solar plexus, what's happening? What are you afraid of? Who's there? Who's in your solar plexus saying, I'm scared? Right. So there are so many ways to work with the body, and I find that keeping it simple at the beginning um is really powerful and effective. And once people know that they have tools, you know, and that what's happening to them is not um dangerous, but it's the past coming back because it needs to be it needs, it still needs to be worked out and worked through.

SPEAKER_00 56:28

So powerful. Well, I I cannot tell you how powerful that is because you also just gave the listeners actual takeaways that they could use immediately. And I think the the last question that's coming to mind, and then I of absolutely want to make sure you let people know how they can contact you and find you and just learn more about your work is there's there's something that I have heard again and again, which is trauma is not what happened to you, it's the meaning you made of what happened to you. And so in this scenario of what you're describing, where you know you you could just be moving through the world, everything's alright, you're in that zone, as you said, neither here nor there of sympathetic or parasympathetic, and then something happens and you go, let's say, into fight or flight. How important is it or not if we use a simple somatic resource sort of as quickly as we can in those moments to restore ourselves to a sense of safety, to bring the prefrontal cortex back online, to then invite in a new meaning, assuming we have any awareness of the old meaning, you know, because if we're getting curious, if we ground ourselves and we get curious about what what just happened, and we actually remember the meaning of something that was extremely hard, how important is it then to invite in a new meaning? And perhaps the new meaning can be as simple as that's that did happen, but it happened 20 years ago when we weren't safe, when we were under the roof of this person and this person, and and actually when I look around right now, I I have my two dogs and I have I'm a grown woman, and I and and so actually right now I am safe. My body, you know, body, you you're remembering when we weren't, and I'm I'm gonna soothe you through that, but but we are. And is that the new meaning? Are there other ways? And do we do we try to do both together to set ourselves up to potentially just be able to come into someone's office and go, I got triggered, but it didn't cascade into this whole thing, and it certainly didn't cascade into a relapse or something worse.

SPEAKER_05 59:18

Yes, yes. I think that this is a really important piece for me. Um that I think that we all heal in relationships, like there's the missing experience is part of it. So you could have that whole conversation with yourself, right? And that's awesome, right? But if you have a history of attachment wounds and you know, um having to move through hard stuff alone, and the caregivers who were supposed to love you and be attuned and keep you safe and loved were not, for whatever reason weren't able to do that, then you become a person who doesn't rely on anybody. And I and I find this with healing too. Like I'll have clients that come in and they'll say, and I did this, and I did this, and you know, I transform that whole experience. I'm like, awesome, right? But gee, that feels hard for you to do in the office, you know, with a person who's, you know, who's actually here to hold it because you know, for you and to give the the part of you that felt so alone, um, that sense of being seen and held in the space. Like that is the missing experience, right? So I think that we heal in relationships, and there's so many different ways to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:52

Um what would you tell that example of that client who you're realizing is doing the work, but there's this very interesting, crafty, almost yeah, workaround to something something deeper that that must also be healed. What would you recommend that they do? And what if they don't have besides you someone to trust that they can do it with in relationship? Right, right.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:22

Well, I would great question. I would uh you know, I asked them to get first off, I would say that's fantastic. Like you're doing amazing work, right? Like, and that's true. Yes, but like I wonder what that experience might have felt like if if we were sitting together. I wonder what it might have been like for you not to be alone in your own healing. Right? I wonder if there's something that is happening or not happening, you know, in our working relationship that leaves some parts feeling um uh vulnerable, uh too vulnerable. Right. Because I could represent, you know, a mother who wasn't so caring in those moments. It could be, it could feel very hard to be vulnerable, even with someone who's safe or you know, purports to be, you know, a safe, caring person and shows up predictably and consistently. So I might just invite that client, first off, great, you know, whatever we do that that fosters um new neuronal connections and new insights and awareness and a new sense of being able to work with one with one's body, we want to celebrate that. But there are some places where I think the deepest healing and the most profound healing, especially from early trauma, occurs, you know, in relationships. Right. And it could be subtle, it's not like it doesn't have to be like this cathartic, you know. Um, it could be that you take a risk with someone that you may maybe you wouldn't have taken a risk with before, and you feel, you know, that that person is seeing you. When we're used to not being seen, and then we get seen, it's kind of you you freak out a little bit because it's like, now what? It's like there's such ambivalence, especially with the complex trauma trauma, right? Because we want to be seen, but then it's scary to be seen. So, you know, it's it's very individual, but I think it's an excellent question. Um, you know, um, but I think that um I try these days to um look at some of the places where uh, you know, I go back to going in alone. Right? I didn't do that for this podcast. I had friends, you know, set up my lighting. I had people like checking in on me, you know. Um in the past I would have been like, if this goes well, maybe I'll tell my friends. These are my friends. If this goes well, maybe, you know, maybe I'll show them where they can, you know, see this. But I'm gonna keep my mouth shut because I don't know. But I decided to do something radical, right? And not be alone in it. So the lighting is better, I feel more comfortable, I feel seen, I feel connected to you. Um I think I feel connected to your audience. I don't I can't see anybody, so it's kind of weird, but I know people can people see me?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:25

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:26

This oh, no one can see me. This is this is it will be released to the world once it's all edited and edited in okay, because I didn't even I just showed up for this. I didn't even know so yes, okay, that makes perfect sense. Um, but uh, but yeah, I mean I think that I love I love what you're doing with the center because you know, I think you're creating an environment and a container for people to do, you know, their work and whatever that looks like, whatever it means for them, you know, we heal in relationships.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:00

Yeah, and you know, I I one of the you know, just to touch on this piece that we're talking about, because I, you know, I I started talking to you about AA and that one of the bright spots is the community and the connection. And so uh just because I don't regularly go to meetings doesn't mean I don't create that for myself, because I think there's a value in it and the level of healing from anxious attachment that I've been doing over the last two years is profound, and there have been two friendships that have exposed those wounds, and really from the pain of the disruption of you know the pattern just absolutely not working anymore. Yeah, I've been sort of zapped into a state of consciousness around what am I gonna do about this now? What am I willing to do? About healing this thing, which is really at the very epicenter of everything, because so long before I touched a drink or a drug, I was self-abandoning to make sure mom was okay. I mean, period. I was a codependent long before I was an addict, and that is the thing that that is actually causing you know pain now, not not drinking and not drugging, and so I've had these two different friendships that I feel very fortunate because there's one that came before it that there's been no repair. It ended, you know, we were friends for eight years. I felt like she was a sister to me, and then having lost a sister and not been been able to like really close that up has been extremely painful for me. And um and and then there have been these other two people that we were in totally enmeshed, and it comes on the same way every time, and now I'm so aware of the pattern. It's like red hot flame, it's very sexy, it's so enticing, it's very intellectually stimulating, it's funny, it's playful, it's I just wanna I just want to lose myself in this person. And and then it all falls apart. And uh, you know, what I realized in the awakening is the through line that's running under this is if I love you hard enough, maybe you won't leave me. When I uncovered that, I was like, wow, oh my god, no wonder, no wonder. And and I'm so fortunate in these two particular friendships, we have found our way back to each other in this very different, much more mature and grown way. And in one of them, uh this this girlfriend, one's one's a man and one's a woman, this girlfriend came to my opening. And man, we had a couple years ago a fallout that I just didn't see us recovering from. And what was amazing about that is unlike the friendship that didn't repair and recover that I've been agonizing over, this one, I was like, I'm gonna be okay. I don't want to go back to who I was in that friendship. So if there's a version of this friendship that exists on the other side of my healing, I'll explore it if it makes sense. But I I'm not gonna pine for what was because I don't want to go back to who she was. She was so hurt and desperate for for love. And um and and so it was the and so to have the friendship be back is amazing because I don't need it. It's just there, right? So she came to my opening, she heard me give a talk, and I've done all this public speaking, she hasn't really heard me speak in that way, and she went through my whole uh experiential body, mind, and spirit. I wanted to give people a sense of what it would be to come here and work with me and she left me this whole message like the next day, and she just said, I don't know if I've told you enough or at all how different you are, how much work you've done, but it is so palpable and it's it's just amazing to watch. Like I loved you before, like God, like you you are just such an amazing version of yourself now. And I say all that because this is like real stuff, this is real time, what's happening in my life, and it's it speaks to what you just said, right? Like I I let her back in as it was safe to me based on how I was healing and how she was mutually showing up. I let her see me in this new way, and you trusted enough, you trusted yourself exactly that she didn't have to receive me, she didn't have to see me for me to see myself, she didn't have to see me for me to heal, she didn't have to see me for me to be okay. None of there were no strings attached to it. Yes, it wasn't little Sam begging for her mother or sister to see her, it was just grown Samantha showing up, and then she saw me, right? And I just wrote her and said that means so much to me. I mean, you know, just just in the spectrum of my healing, and so yes, as it pertains to letting others in, you know, when when you feel sturdy enough inside to do so, and maybe when you don't fully, you know, but maybe when more of you, when more of you versus less of you feel sturdy enough to go, can I take a calculated risk on scene?

Stop Outsourcing Safety

SPEAKER_05 1:10:58

I can be okay regardless. And I think, you know, um, sometimes I'll hear, you know, um, people will say, and I'm sure I've said this many times, um, I don't feel safe with this person. I don't feel safe. This person is not safe, right? Like I'm I looked, I have looked historically to for people to make me feel safe, you know, to quell my anxieties about not being good enough or whatever it is, right? Outsourcing safety. Outsourcing, right? There's no safety in outsourcing safety, yeah, right. Safety is an interior job, but we are responsible for creating our own inner safety, right? That doesn't mean we let people shit all over us or you know, we tolerate situations that are you know unacceptable or abusive. But at the end of the day, you know, there's such power and freedom in knowing that safety lives within you, in your ability to work with your system, to work with your parts, to love that anxious, attached little girl, you know, and to feel for her. Because what choice did she have but to pine for mom? And I I was that kid too.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:09

I I you know, I'd wait for hours for mom to come home from whatever she was doing. I'd wait for hours and then she'd come home and she would barely say hi and she'd go off. Um, you know. And then I decided that, you know, if I can get her to tell me her problems, then I can be indispensable to her and she will need me. So I earned my master's degree by the time I was nine, sitting in a diner, listening all to my mother's problems, you know, my father's fidelity and all that shit, right? So, like there was such an anxious, like you know, um vigilance around her, right? Right, but there was no me.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:48

Yes.

Final Reflections And Farewell

SPEAKER_05 1:12:50

There was no me without her. It's like there's no, you know, baby without a mother, there's no mother without a baby. Like, yep, right. So once you you once you unlink that, you know, it it's not so dangerous anymore because you are your own person, right? And the worst has already happened to that little girl. Exactly. The worst has already happened. And as a grown woman, you get to take care of her, yeah, and you get to make sure at the end of the day that you're not giving her to somebody else. Here, you take her. Uh you know, I need a break. Yeah. So, you know, I I it sounds like, you know, this is really tremendous work that's unfolding for you. And that, you know, and that it's all coming together in such a beautiful way with your center and um you know, with the friendships and you know, your recovery, you know, and not picking up a drink or a drug after your sister's um tragic overdose, you know. You've been building capacity, you know, and you move from the head to the heart, you know, that long trip. Was it 12 inches from the head to the heart? What do they say? 14 inches? I don't know. Um, but you know what? We don't get on the yoga mat until we're ready. We don't get on the floor, you know, and and do, you know, that, you know, that somatic release work until we feel safe enough inside or safe enough with the person who's guiding us through that to um to trust that you know that on the other side there's real freedom and joy and a real letting go of what's not serving. And reteaching the body, hey, we're it's we're safe now. It's okay. It's okay, it's just host. Let's let's look. Right? No fire trucks. That sourdough bread is like, you know, that's very dark, you know, and it smells like ash, but nothing bad is happening. Right, you know, and a lot of it is um, you know, is is dual awareness, just being mindful, staying curious, you know, the the four C's and creativity, compassion, um, curiosity, uh, connection, you know. Like we do these things every day, and then we wake up one morning and we're like, wow, you know, that's kind of cool. I'm not obsessing over that friend this morning, you know, or you know, I'm not straddling some fence or something, you know. I'm like, you know, I'm actually feeling like I am in my present state of being, and I'm seeing the world, and I'm seeing myself through a lens that um is not a reflection of where I've been, but a reflection of where I am today and all the ways that I worked to get to this safe place where the work becomes possible. And then we get to talk about it. How cool is that?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:55

Yes, and help other people. And help other people. So I mean, you're you're fantastic. I love this conversation.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:05

Oh, Dr. Tim, like this was, I gotta tell you, like, this was so healing for me. Just you you just held such a beautiful space, like you know, I'm getting, you know, ready to publish a book, you know, and it's gonna be like it's gonna be a lot in this book that's really vulnerable, right? And it's sort of like, all right, if I'm gonna write a book about some of the things that I'm writing about, I need safe places where I can start a conversation.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:34

And you are my first safe place. Thank you for that. I'm very grateful.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:40

Well, have the best dinner ever. I hope you feel proud of yourself. And I can't wait to share the episode with you and all the little clips, and I'll send everything over when it's ready.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:49

Awesome. You are amazing. And um, you know, you're a beacon of light in this world. And you know, when you have people who've done this level of healing, you know, your ability to connect with other people and model that and help them support them in their journeys. Um, there's nothing like it. So thank you, my friend.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:15

You're so welcome.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:16

We'll stay in touch.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:17

Okay. Sounds great. Be well. You too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:30

Waking up, I hear the desperation call. Take me to money.