Episode 260 – Brice McCasland – Beyond Inspiration: The Grit Behind Art

In this episode The Creativity Department talks with returning guest Brice McCasland about building grit through the creative process. Discover how art educators help students embrace creative risk-taking, develop confidence through vulnerability, and recognize that resilience is about continuing to create through challenges. Brice also reflects on how sharing his artistic process, stories, and finished work with patrons continually renews his own creativity, giving him fresh inspiration and energy to bring back to his students.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Hi everyone, I'm Matt Remler.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

And I'm Laura Remler, and today on K12 Art Chat Podcast, we'll be chatting with our good friend Bryce McCaslin about Britton resilience revealing his artistic goodness.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

So um we uh love to have wonderful conversations.

SPEAKER_03 0:32

This is, I mean, as we say, we have a friend of the show or an older friend. This is truly, I think, I think Bryce, you are our our longest art ed friend. Probably in in all of perpetuity, because I met you in college sitting next to you. I don't remember if it was in our weaving class or I feel like you sat right next to me. I feel like it was class.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, yeah, at Julio. It was awesome.

SPEAKER_03 0:59

Yes.

unknown 1:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

And I remember, I mean, you would give me rides home, which was always thankful. And Matt lived on the corner right near my condo. Yeah, yeah. Didn't what and you had I I I what was your car back then? What did you drive?

SPEAKER_00 1:13

My car, it was uh Toyota pickup for the Orbite Parts. It was that you were such a gangster, man. It was like the one it was it was the one from Back to the Future, kind of. Yeah, I mean such a pimp ride.

SPEAKER_03 1:25

God, that was I actually think my ride was more convinced.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Yours, I mean you should have held on to your car. No, don't okay, okay. She regrets this subject. She regrets it.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

Still to this, they regret this because you know I'd still be driving the red out to the city.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Well, and everyone actually the way that people are uh going after those cars right now so much money now, and they are even even the terribly conditioned ones, still people are like, yeah, they're so aspire though, dude.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

I mean people all know like our age will know this, but I had a 1985 K5 Blazer 4x4 that was red with gray interior, and it was my dream car, and it's still my dream car. So if there's any listeners out there that have access to one, I would really like it.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

I mean, you may have wild, but you know, anyway, we're getting off topic in a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 2:17

We've known you that long that you remember our college vehicles.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

Yeah, right. We have, we have.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

And our times in Gunnison were some of the best. And I know you still go to Gunnison every summer almost. So jealous of that.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Um yeah, and it's wonderful. I mean, I feel like the school has done a lot. Uh, it's I even met at this last art show that I was at. It was really it was just funny because I was talking to a couple and they asked uh where I'd gone to school, and I said, Well, it's a little small school in Gunnison, and and they said, No way. And we ended up talking for 30 minutes because one of their kids goes there and they were talking about how incredible it is that you can still have these class sizes of 15, 16, 17 kids per class. Uh, even in your bigger lectures, you're looking at 40 kids versus the places where they're at three and four hundred. Uh just how much how much of a good time their their kid was having there.

SPEAKER_03 3:09

And I thought I think that it is a gem that is a lot of people unfortunately don't know it. And maybe that's what makes it such a great little gem, but it's it's we lovingly know it as Western State College, and it started out as a normal school for teachers.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

Um, but in like 1903, I think, or something. And now it's Western Colorado University, which uh is it's beautiful. Oh my gosh, it's beautiful. Such a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

It is.

SPEAKER_03 3:39

Yeah. That's um we before we started recording, we started, we were talking about someday retiring. And Matt and I still would love to retire there. That's like a a dream.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Oh yeah, yeah. And I I think the cool thing, it's just uh I I think about it all the time, how how strange it is that such a small place and you know the three of us have connected and gone there and gained so much from there that I think um it's undeniable that it has impacted and directed the way we treat others, live our lives. Oh, absolutely. Which is pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_03 4:12

I mean, if you just think about the art department alone and the like Al and the that community that he built, or even Strange Lud. You know, like but there was there were you know, we knew all of our professors on a first name basis. There, I mean, you're right, like how many people were there in classes? Nine. Um, our art history class was the largest at like 30, you know.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

I mean, what a gift.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

Yeah, what a gift. And to learn in such a beautiful location and really get to, you know, have that experience. And you're right. I mean, Bryce, you've done amazing things with your career. Um, just for the listeners, can you talk to everyone just a little bit about who you are, what you do, both in your art education life, but in your art life as well?

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Yeah, sure. So I uh my name is Bryce McCassland, and I, man, a million years ago went to Western State University. And it's funny because I I went really uh uh for biology, and then I had an incredible experience with uh who Laura mentioned, Al Canneth, who was both uh wonderful and formative and grouchy, and all the all the good things that you needed.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

Well black many.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Um and and I had such a great experience that it it made me question what I wanted to do with my life, and I decided to get into art education and and realistically never ever ever thought that um and and this is I think this is wrong, but I never really saw um myself as an artist, you know, and I and I and I still think a lot of art educators don't necessarily define themselves as artists, they just see themselves as educators. But for me, I I I wanted to be a teacher. Uh it just it made sense and it's something that really connected with me all throughout my life. I just was kind of blind to it that you know as a camp counselor and stuff. And um, so but after I after I graduated, I started teaching and I uh moved to Iowa and and learned what real cold um real cold and garage drinking. I learned what that looked like and I started painting a lot and um my my practice just kind of took I guess took hold of me and it was it became something that that I obsess about a little bit. It's kind of consuming in a beautiful way. And um as uh through the years I have continued that practice and I have also um been at my current location. So I taught in Iowa and I taught in Plano, and now I've been at uh Lovejoy Independent School District for the last 20 years, uh, where I serve as their K-12 visual art um uh coordinator, and which is the coolest thing in the world because I get to work with my other teachers and learn from a team of people that come from all different places and have different skills and passions and gifts. And we get to really focus on giving our kids an experience that's pretty freaking ridiculous. Uh because because we're trusted, right? We're trusted to be experts, we're trusted to to really make great decisions for what's best for kids learning and and to be problem solvers and to be thinkers and to be communicators. And um so part of that job here, uh, I get to, I teach our AP studio courses. Uh I also teach a course in gallery curation and management. We have a full-time gallery that my students run, um, which is the coolest freaking thing in the world because we're uh teaching kids to care about other people's work um and not only care about how they handle it, but how do they present it and how do they give viewers an experience that helps um all ages of people experience work in a new way and ask questions and dialogue? And so we provide as many opportunities as we can for artists to kind of connect with community and and and we believe that that starts local and then works global, right? And so if we can teach kids to be a part of a small community and help lead that and guide that play an important role in that, then what does that look like when they move on? What does it look like when they go to college? They're gonna want to be part of something, they're gonna want to direct something, and uh and it just continues uh more and more and more. I mean, it's crazy. Uh one of my former students literally just texted me, and and they've worked at a few different museums and they're currently in New York, and they just sent me a show that they had installed uh of Willie Birch, and uh just it reminded them of of our time together in studio. Anyway, just crazy stuff, right? I mean, the web the the the web of life is is beautiful. And so um alongside my teaching practice, um I I've been a painter and uh I've struggled through that beautiful thing that that you make really bad work and good work, you cry, you laugh, you sing, you think that you're like, oh my god, I'm gifted, and then you go, oh no, what did I do?

SPEAKER_02 8:55

No, I'm not. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. It's uh it's the craziest ride in the world.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

And um, yeah, yeah, yeah. And and oh, and part of that, I um I've been really, really lucky. I just came off of five years of working uh with AP Studio Art and College Board as part of their development committee, which uh, if you don't know, it's uh a group of higher ed educators, so four higher ed educators and four high school educators that work together to really figure out how do we take that exam um and and make it something that is more accessible, make it something that is more um I I think living and more something that's attuned to students so that it stays real and it stays something that is really in in my mind uh the the best exam that exists and the best way for a high school student to own their body of work and create work that is about them and then uh present that through um not only the finished work, but the how did they get their the process and the practice and all the stuff that we really all love. Um and and so I just came off of that. Um it's been crazy and incredible, and and I think at the core of it, um being a being a maker, being somebody that is uh is constantly trying to own my own craft and explore within what I do and and again constantly question uh the validity of my work, I think it's important. Um so that's kind of led this journey.

SPEAKER_03 10:15

Well, and and thank you for your work with AP because I think it's so much more authentic to to what we believe about curriculum and making art. And it's it's so much more about that process and practice, as you just said, than I think maybe where its origin was, where it was really about the product, and now it's really about you know the the writing and the the the you know the understanding of where the ideas came from and how they emerged and how the process emerged. And I really, really appreciate the work that you and the whole team around uh the the college board that worked on that really had uh that's a powerful thing because it feels so much more contemporary and authentic, and just just want to say thanks for that.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's um it was one of the most formative experiences of my career uh because you're surrounded by people that um man, the the amount of care for kids and and and I think that um the leader of AP Studio Art, uh Rebecca Stondana, he does such an incredible job of gathering this weird kind of diaspora of people with different levels of expertise and hearts. And so we have people that teach um kids from all over the place and really have a mission um for for I think really different important parts of what we do as educators. And so whether that be that their mission is to really, really, you know, connect with kids that might not um have access, right? Or whether it be those kids that are performing already performing at a high level, and how do we continue to challenge that? Or how do we make this an exam that is really um I think aligned with uh college curriculum? And and so it was uh yeah, it has been the most formative experiences uh that I think I've ever had. And and you constantly get humbled being around people that are 10 times uh smarter than you, and I I I recommend that to anybody. If you if you want to grow, man, find find as many smart people as you can. Uh, I think that it's a weird thing, right? As an educator, it is so true. We all love what we love, we all love knowing things, and so sometimes it's hard because um it's hard because we we know that we're experts in some things, but I think that the beauty in that is when we admit that we're not experts in everything and that we can grow so much when we allow more people at the table. And when when we all sit down and we go, oh my gosh, like I had no idea about that, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:44

And and somebody, I mean we yeah, anyway, I could go on for hours just about that because the about intelligence and that I mean that's in a way a perfect segue to you know one of our questions, which which is you know, for many teachers, the biggest hurdle is that as you were just saying, sometimes you feel like you are the most amazing, and then other times you're like, oh my gosh, uh not so much. And you know, that that vulnerability to as you were just saying, to also be able to admit that you're you know you're not that knowledgeable. But I mean, how do we how do we as educators, how do we as artists take kind of build that grit in, especially if it's not there or you know instinctive from the beginning? How do we build that in? And why is it good for somebody to be able to take the leap? Take the leap to dare you to be like, I dare you to try this, or hey, go try this.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Yeah, I mean, um, I I love that you're the the dare thing because I uh so a little background. So I when I was painting in Iowa, uh I painted and oh my god, they were terrible. You know, I mean, and it's just what it was, right? I mean, I was just painting, and and really I was painting because winter is cold and there's not a lot to do, and I was trying to in my mind I thought, you know, if I'm gonna be a if I'm gonna be a good teacher, it's really important that my hands are just as dirty as the kids. Like that's really important. And um, so I painted a lot and and and I learned a lot, I messed up a lot, I wasted a lot of canvas, I threw away a lot of artwork, uh, and it was all really, really good. And then when we moved to Dallas, so my wife and I both got teaching jobs here, we we went to an art festival, and uh by that time I had I had some work and some galleries, but and I'm not downplaying the gallery scene, it's great. Uh, but we went to an art festival, and my wife uh was like, you know, you should do this. And I was like, no, you know, no, like this there's a lot that goes into this, and she's like, Oh, you're scared. And I was like, What?

SPEAKER_02 14:41

What are you what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01 14:43

I'm not scared, right? And she's like, You're scared. I can tell, you're scared, you're scared. You you can't do it. And I was like, Oh, I can do it. And she's like, Okay, I dare you. She was like, I dare you to apply to this show. Um, and and I said, Okay, bet. Yeah, I it's on. And uh, I applied to the show. And uh, and and then I applied to another show. And and and once I started getting into shows, I was like, oh God, what did I just do to myself? Because it it became this commitment that I go, okay, well, now that now that I've taken this step, what's the next step? Right. And and and sometimes I think that that that first step might be the hardest because we we hear all those voices of, oh, well, you're you don't know this, you don't know enough about this, you know, you've never done this. And and we we become so enveloped by fear and the the fear of what could happen that we we miss out on something that could happen. We miss out on something that's freaking fantastic. And um, so by my wife daring me, um, I had to kind of put it aside that I'm terrible at a lot of things. I mean, I am, and and all of us are, right? And and I think that the hat, the crossover here is that we wear this hat as educators that we're kind of told we have to be good at everything, right? And that that constantly changes. And and they're like, oh, here's something else you have to be an expert in. And you're like, oh my God, I don't even have the other stuff under control, right? Um, but it becomes this facade that we wear that we go, oh yeah, I have to be an expert in everything. I have to be good at everything in order to be good at my job, which which I think is incorrect. And and I think that when we look at even the best educators in the world, we look at the best artists in the world, they were never islands. None of them. None of them were writing alone, none of them were thinking alone, none of them were creating alone, and none of them were creating in this vacuum where they themselves were the only expert in the room. That's whenever you get really uh kind of wild, you know, people are you know not cutting their fingernails and like growing their hair out, and people are talking about them like, whoa, what they fell off. Uh and I think that the most successful people in education and in art are the people that again have been able to say, what can I learn from you? You know? And uh I I learned, um I I'll be honest. I mean, I've done shows now for almost 20 years, and and I learned something from an artist at every show. Uh I mean every single show. And and the same as uh teaching. I've been teaching forever, and and it's weird because I transitioned from being the young guy that was cool to now the gray-haired guy. And I mean, I don't know, I don't think I'm cool, but I now I'm old, you know? And it's weird because I still I can tell you that on my team I've learned something from every single person that I work with. And some of them have taught three years, some of them have taught two years, some of them have taught 10 years, and they're invaluable to the role I play because they've taught me so much. And and part of that is uh I think both as an artist and an educator, it's important to know your strengths and it's important to know your weaknesses and be honest about it, right? Yeah, and and so the fact that I am terrible at business. I'm just I'm terrible. I mean, even at this last show, a guy comes in, he was really interested in this piece, and he's like, Yeah, I mean, I don't have the money for this. And I'm like, Yeah, I mean, money kind of sucks, you know. I guess if you can take it and and you know, just pay me as you go or whatever. And he's like, Are you serious? You know? And I'm like, Yeah, and he didn't take the pay. I think it made him really uncomfortable. I mean, he bailed really quick, and it wasn't a con. I mean, I was just like, Yeah, I I you know, money sucks. It does. And and I think my wife would be like, babe, like what are what are you? This is not a good model. Um, but I think that the even in my own teaching, I can tell you that I'm I'm terrible with calendars, I'm terrible with dates, I'm terrible with time, I don't wear a watch. I haven't worn a watch in over 20 years, and I rarely know what day it is. And if it wasn't for people on my team, I mean, seriously, if it wasn't for people on my team to say, hey, remember we have this today, or hey, and we, you know, do it via group text, whatever, I would be dead. I mean, I would be in a ditch somewhere just gone because uh I need those people. And and then I have people on my team too that their skill is is incredible organization and keeping track of things, and and that helps me too, right? Because that helps me make sure that I know what everyone needs and keep and and the same goes for for my wife in the art business. There are certain things that I'm good at. I can I can build canvases and I can I can paint for 20 hours at a time, no problem, and I lose track of myself. Um, some people call this ADHD. I call it being an artist. It's it's something, and uh, and it's something that I have to um that to be honest, I need help with, right? Because if I do that, uh I miss out on a lot of beautiful things in life and and so being a human and being with a family and uh being able to balance. So uh taking that risk, I think, means um yeah, I I think the first step is being able to go, hey, it's okay that I am not the best at everything. And that's so freeing. Um if any of you think that you're the best at everything, one, you're a narcissist, and so you need uh but if if you if you have a hard time admitting it, if you have a hard time going, hey man, I'm not the greatest at this, God, it's freeing. Because then then you get to go, yeah, you know, people know that that's that's just not my skill set. And uh so that's helped me a lot personally.

SPEAKER_03 20:12

Yeah, you know, Brace, one of the things I have always just thoroughly enjoyed about you is that you know, that that web of connection, it it's just really interesting, you know, kind of going different paths and then reconnecting and but also still having like a very similar ph philosophy because you know, when I'm doing facilitation, especially around leadership and working with teachers or, you know, um helping our teachers advocate, you know, I talk to them about the smartest person in the room is the room and really understanding that you need to be humble so that you connect to other people's processes and stories and really listen and take time to be in that community setting so that you can grow. And I love hearing you talk about this so much. You know, I think one of the things that's hard as an educator is that as teachers, we spend all day giving our energy to other people. Um, but in one of your recent posts, you talked about when you're at an art show, when patrons come in and then they have these connections with you or your artwork that it pours into you and it helps refuel your practice. Can you talk to us just a little bit about how that that that works for you?

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Yeah, I mean, I think um you're right. I mean, as educators, we are constantly constantly giving, right? And and so much of our job is we we are like this full cup that we are, you know, pouring out class by class, kid by kid, day by day. And how do we refill that? Uh, because I think that we've all had we've all had educators that their cup is empty, and we're like, dude, like you gotta do something, like go read a book or watch a documentary. Or go outside. And so none of us want to be that way because we've had that. And so I think that we all want to be the full cup that can give over and over and over, right? It's like that that idea that that our cup is one that should always runeth over. And how do you do that? And I think that for me, um, one of the things that really just informs my ability to to give in the classroom is that I feel I feel like I get to receive a lot. And and I think a lot of times, or at least when I talk to teachers, there's always that gap, right? Like they might not feel like they get to receive a lot. And and sure, you know, we have teacher appreciation week where we get a mini Snickers and a coupon to get a shave ice, and and we're like, if you're lucky, or smarties because they're trying to do some sort of punny kind of thing. Um, and and and so all of that, we go, well, this really isn't refilling my cup. Um, for me, I think that being able to share in that most that that really most important artistic practice of being authentic and sharing of your work. I think that when we get to share and and then we see that physical connection that people have to what we're doing, man. I mean, the payout on that's incredible. And and I'll be honest, my my work, I was talking to an artist about this at the show. I have a pretty small target audience because my work is um, I don't know, it's a lot. Kind of, you know, it's just it's it is what it is, right?

SPEAKER_03 23:27

And so I think it's amazing, and I think cut a dollar to go check it out. And I'm still dying to trade something or buy something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

I mean well, I think you're incredibly kind, but it's all it's one of the there's some work, there's some work that that uh people make, and and I'm not discounting the work that that really everybody can kind of connect to, right? Because it's based on those really base elements, you know, whether it's based in color or whether it's based in value. And then and then some people like myself just struggle with letting go, and so you just keep going and going and going, and and so there's a lot there. And um so although my target audience is small, meaning some people, and this is a huge comment to my work, and I've had to deal with this over the years, people come in, and because collage is such an accessible material and and format that everyone has done, right? That it immediately it's this weird edge because a lot of people discount it. And and that used to bug me, and now, man, I love it. Because I get some 80-year-old ladies come in and they're like, Oh, I'm working on a little collage right now, but like I'm like, Yes, please tell me you're not using Mod Podge, and they're like, Well, I am, and I'm like, Okay, I need you to get out a notebook because we're about to take notes and I'm gonna tell you what media to actually use because I don't want you, you know, walking away with something you don't like. But all that aside, so when I whenever I have somebody come in that the work makes sense and they they start asking questions, they're like, oh man, what does this symbol mean? Or what is this image from, or where is this one bit of scrap from? Um, it's it's crazy how it makes your heart go pitter patter, right? Because you you're you're out there, we all kind of feel this. We all feel like when we're making our work, maybe some, maybe, maybe people aren't gonna understand it. Maybe people aren't gonna connect with maybe people don't don't understand our story. And so when they do, oh god.

SPEAKER_03 25:18

I mean, I I I can I guess I can see what you're saying about collage because it is accessible, but your work has got deeply narrative themes and and there's this, it's so mixed media, it's so much more than collage, and it's there's there's some really, you know, just thinking about the collection that you keep of all those little scraps and how you're digging around and looking for the perfect scrap. And I mean, you're out there hunting for it's it's not, it's not like you just randomly found the spot.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

Yeah, like it's not totally.

SPEAKER_03 25:52

It's so thoughtful and so narrative, and it's so symbolic, and it does tell a story. And it's I mean, every time I see something of yours, I I still am kicking myself for not buying a piece about 10 years ago. That they I'm like, and I literally still think about it. And I'm like, why did I not buy it when it was available? And now who knows where it is. But you know, like it's it's evocative work, and I just I I I think that there's something really special about your work. And I keep thinking, he's gonna, somebody's gonna like he's I'm gonna see him at a Biennale someday or something.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

I mean, I man, I appreciate that so much. I mean, I it's still, you know, like uh at this last show, I think one of the most powerful moments is um there's this, and I say she's young, she's probably in her mid-20s now, but um I I I think I've been doing this one show in Denver uh for about 10 years. And the first year I did it, her and her dad came, and her dad bought her a smaller piece, you know, and it was it was a collage piece, and and they've come back like every year, and they're wonderful. And every year the dad has, you know, bought her a smaller work. And this year it was a much more substantial piece, and she just fell in love with. She's like, oh my gosh, she's like, I can't, this is this is crazy. This is like me, you know. This piece is I it is wild. It's like you're in my mind. And and the whole time I'm just like back at I'm like giggling in the corner, you know, uh, like I've received my first compliment, and because it was so wonderful, and it's so crazy to see a person grow up, right? And and you know, I've never spent this much on a piece of art, but I'm this is my first investment. And she bought this piece, uh, and it just meant the world that she would uh yeah, I mean, after this much time, um, that that she sees the value and the worth in in what I'm doing and the stories that I'm telling, that it connects with her that deeply. And that for me, I see it as a big connection between even me and her dad and that relationship because it's something that they share, right? And and I think that there's beauty in that too. So yeah, it's it's pretty pretty well.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

Um, you know, I just want to kind of back up to because I'm still thinking about uh something you mentioned about ADHD, and I felt like I could really relate to that. Um, and then it was also something in your post too that made me feel like you know there was some more commonality there. You know, you you talk about um your wife being being your business partner, you know, being the the person who kind of helps you manage those things that you're as you admitted earlier, terrible at, you know, and I and I get that, and I can definitely relate to some of those things as well. But you know, resiliency is often kind of misunderstood as you gotta do everything yourself, you gotta be that one person. I've got to be resilient, I gotta keep pushing away at that, you know, and kind of learning to rely on, you know, instead of learning to rely as you were just talking about earlier so passionately too. And I think that's what you know helped was helping me as well start to think more about it, but to be able to rely on those not just partners, but just support team, as you were talking about, teams in your, you know, at your school and and all of that to help you protect your creative energy. I'm just curious, like what kinds of advice can you give to teachers out there that are trying to do it alone, that are trying to be on that island, that are trying to be or feel like they're on that island and have nowhere else to look or ideas on where to look. And I know that was a lot.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

I'm sorry, but no, there's this thing called ADHD. It is a lot, it's real. Oh it's um no, I um you know, I I think for me, um, and and I hope everybody uh has somebody out there, whether it be a friend or family or or whatever, they can constantly bounce things to because I feel like the the more alone we become, uh the less successful we are in in in all aspects of what we do. Um and and I'm not just talking about art and education, I'm just talking about humanity. And and I think that you know, currently we're in this time where it seemingly everything is divisive, you know. If I say cheeseburger, somebody is going to get angry and say a no burger, you know. I mean, and so I I think that we're missing out on the beauty of what it is to be human and that's to be different, and that's to have different stories, and that's to have different histories, and that's to have different skills. And um, for me, uh, I I knew really early on that anything with numbers was not really my skill. If you give me a tape measure and I'm great, but if you said, hey, I need you to open an account or hey, I need you to pay taxes, just I'm I'm I'm I go kind of cold, you know. And so um, as part of that dare, I mean, so many years ago, uh over 20 years ago, you know, my wife has been able to support that dare with using her own skill sets to help me. And and I think that um you're right, as educators and as artists, there's a lot of things, especially now, just in the current, that we feel like we have to be web designers, we have to always be in front of a camera, we have to post everything we can to be relevant. We have to, you know, not only as an artist make sense of what it is that we're thinking, but as a teacher, we have to do that. We have to do those things separately. And so we're managing curriculum and we're managing our own schedule, and then and then we think about life and we're like, and I have a family, right? We're like, oh my God, and how do I categorize all this in any sort of effective or or balanced way? And I think that even in saying that, and it's funny, you it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. You can't. I mean, you you can't. And and so one thing I think that you have to do as an artist is you have to value your time. Um, and so part of that means that, you know, for me, I still build my own canvases and build my own frames, not because it's effective monetarily, um, but because that matters to me. And so I think as an artist, you have to decide what really matters to you. And so for you, if it makes sense to buy canvases, buy your freaking canvases. If it makes sense for you to have someone frame your work, then pay for somebody to frame your work, right? These are all things that we get to decide. And and that if if you make the wrong choice, it's gonna stress you out. And that stress is gonna keep you from creating, you know? Because a lot of times what snuffs out that creative energy is that feeling of, oh, I have too much on my plate. Oh, I can't do this. I can't, I I can't even give this time because I have stupid things like thinking about paying for blank or blank or blank, right? And so I think that that's one of the keys to balance is going, okay, well, what matters most to me and how do I make that a priority? How do I put that first? And then the things that aren't a priority, how do I push that off? Or how do I utilize my time enough to pay somebody to do that or to think about a creative way to do that? Um, this could be in connection to your website. And I'll I'll be honest with you, and I think this is a hilarious story. Um, I've had a website forever, and uh, I'm terrible at updating it. And we understand. Yeah, you're like, oh dear gosh. Um and and you know, and I feel like websites come and go in terms of people's flow to them. I think most people use social media uh just because of its ease. Um, and so my website company contacted me, you know, a month and a half ago, two months, and they're like, hey, you know, you're about to come up on you know your renewal. And I'm like, yep, yep, I I got it. I'll, you know what, I'll pay it, I'll get online, I'll do it. And the lady's like, you know, you sure you don't want to do it right now? Yep, I got it. And I was painting, right? And so I was in this zone. Well, guess what happened? The website lapsed because Mr. Calendar here was not good at it. And and hilariously, I'm like, yeah, it'll be fine. I don't even need a website, which whatever. But then I got a call from a uh promotions guy, and he's like, hey, for the record, your website now takes you to a Chinese sporting goods thing. You're like, why is it just hilarious? Because that's the internet, right? But all this is because all this, like the reason now that if people try to go to my website, they're somewhere buying, you know, Chinese sporting goods materials, uh, is because I was not good enough to say, you know what, call my wife. You know, you know what, this is this is something that I'm not gonna take care of right now. And I didn't put it in my calendar, and and I already know that's a weakness. So I think that uh for me, uh I can I can push a lot of uh a lot of my success and a lot of the things that I've been able to do and manage is because I have somebody that's willing to be in that with me and to recognize what I'm not good at. I can tell you both. I do not know my banking account number, and I haven't ever. My wife does. I mean, I called her the other day and I said, hey, I need to know our checking number. And she reeled it off like it was a birthday and thought, I don't even know how you do that. You're crazy. Um, but it's because of that, and it's because of that um, I don't know, I guess that acknowledgement that I don't have to be good at everything. Uh, it creates a lot of freedom for me because I'm a naturally anxious and stressed out person.

SPEAKER_03 35:35

Well, I you know, one of the things I I love that you said is that it's it, you know, you can call it ADHD or you can call it being an artist. And I I don't think any of us that work in creative roles aren't connected to folks with dyslexia, ADHD, dysgraphia, whatever. I mean, like in our household alone, we've got all those plus some. So, you know, um, and I've never seen them, I guess, as deficits because I've always seen them as, you know what, we all have gaps and we all need help. And where, I mean, in our partnership, it's the same kind of thing where where I might fall down, he exceeds, and vice versa. And, you know, I think that that's not only a great skill to have for resilience as a human being, um, way beyond just being an artist, but it definitely helps with the artistry. And it just it just helps with humanity. I mean, if we could all just understand that it takes a community and that we all have, you know, deficits and areas of success and where we we really exceed. Um, you know, like it's like when you get an evaluation as a teacher, you can't have all exceed. Like, I mean, we all I think a lot of teachers want that, right? Like it and it it's a little humbling when you don't get the where you get like the what are they now? There's like I can't even remember the bright spots. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Yeah, you know, when you said that, I was like, oh, every teacher in their head right now was like, oh, meets expectations.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

You can't meets expectations.

SPEAKER_03 37:12

You know, like needing their you know what, like with my team right now, we are so swamped. We are a very small team and we serve not just the a national level of educators, but like a lot of educators globally, right? And there's only 16 of us, and like those it's it's a small team to serve thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of our educators. And I've I often will say, you know what, is it good enough? And and sometimes good enough is good enough. And I think that's another piece of this too, is like asking for help, having the community, knowing where your your your you know gaps are to support each other and how you can fill each other's gaps, but then also it's okay sometimes to say it's good enough.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Yeah, I mean, I you know, I think um I do my best at all uh at everything I do. Um and and sometimes, you know, my best is a frozen pizza.

SPEAKER_03 38:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

And and that's all right, uh, because it's my best. And I think that teaching and making work is um kind of a funny mix, right? Because they they both pull emotionally, they both kind of I mean if if you haven't if you have never had to cry like after work or after a training session, I I envy you. I I mean I do. Because I do. I I think that we have teaching is is in in my mind an amazing, amazing job. And it's amazing. I mean, I I and and so is being an artist, but it's not the fantasy um that that people think it is. And and and I get that from a lot of people, right? A lot of people still go, oh man, must you you're going in the studio, and I'm like, I am, and they're like, it must be so freeing. And I'm like, actually, it makes me want to slam my head in a wall right now because this painting has haunted me for the last 36 hours, you know, and I'm dreaming about it. And and you can't under you can't expect people uh to understand the nuance of what it is that that we do, both as an educator and and as an artist, because it has this magic about it that people crave. Um because everybody wants to love what they do, right? I mean, everybody. And that's something that we I I think we can kind of control a little bit. And and so one of my one of the things I try to encourage people is really to own what people think it is that we do, you know. And so many people, uh just in public, when I tell them what I do, and I say, Well, I'm just I'm an art teacher. And I do say I'm just an art teacher. And I do that intentionally because I used to, I used to try to dial up what I did and and it would offend me when people would be like, oh, that must be so much fun. And now that's the highest compliment in the world because that's what they crave, right? When they when they go, oh my God, your job must be so much fun. I don't, I'm not like, well, actually, you know, let me list out the snuggles. I I I straight up go, you have no idea. I can't even believe I get paid for this. Like the fact that I get paid to do what I do is crazy. Because I see it eat them up on the inside. And then that sounds like I'm out there attacking people. No, it's that I I believe that we're living um we're living a dream that a lot of people don't get to recognize, and that's doing something that we love. And that doesn't mean that it has to be easy. That doesn't mean that you're not gonna cry about it. That doesn't mean that you might go, I I walk out of the studio someday and I'm like, I'm never collaging again. I hate you. Like I'm gonna burn all of this giant bonfire, and it's gonna be epic. But then, you know, the next morning I come in and I and I'm like, oh, the smell of old paper, here we are again. Um and and teaching is very much the same, right? Uh, and so I I think that owning that and owning that for those of us that get to make and those of us that get to teach, and those of us that get to live in that that crazy world of of creating something that you know from nothing and to tell stories from our own life and to make sense of this world by making things that are musical or visual or performative. I mean, what a dream. Uh it it's what it's what people want, right? It's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 41:33

You know, uh Bryce, I know exactly how long you've been teaching because I've been in education one year longer.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

Um that's right. That is true.

SPEAKER_03 41:45

Because you did your student teaching with the same people that I did, and it was right after me. And um, it was just thinking about you've had this really amazing career in both education but in and in painting as well and collage. And I'm sitting here thinking about, you know, a a dare 20 something years ago, and you've been doing this for 20 years, and that's a really long-term like investment in life, right? Like that you've you put your heart, your soul, your your your artwork out in the world, which is really like putting your heart on display in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:23

Um, and it takes, as Matt kind of started this conversation with, it takes grit and it takes um some vulnerability. And I'm just curious, you know, what do you think is one truth you've learned over this this beautiful career?

SPEAKER_01 42:43

Um I mean, I think for me, one of the most beautiful things that I've taken away both from teaching and and being an artist is being able to be yourself and to be honest about what it is that's on your heart to create and um and and even how you teach. I mean, to own that aspect of letting it be personal. Um because I I would argue that you know, making art, even making art that people buy is not art. Um I mean, it it's really not. That might sound crazy, but it's not. It's it's not hard to I mean you could quit your job tomorrow and make art and sell it. That doesn't mean that you're gonna be happy. That doesn't mean that you're gonna be honest about what it is you're making. And so for me, and this this matches up with my teaching too, because I've been around so many teachers that are just phenomenal. You know, you watch them and you're gone, oh my gosh. Like that's that's freaking magic. And you don't know how they do it. And if you ask them, you're like, how what it like, where did you learn this? And then nobody's ever like, Well, I went to a conference and it was a you know, it's always this natural thing, like when we see. Those people, when we watch those people do what they do, and and I would say that the same goes for artists, uh that they're making work that is un not just unconventional, it's it's inseparable from who they are. I think that's what I've learned is that I in my in my making as many times as I've wanted to, and I've threatened, uh, and thank God for my wife, because I I'll be like, that's it, I'm gonna become a ceramicist. And she's like, that's great, babe. That's great. Just what do we need to do? Like, what kind of clay should we get? And I'm like, okay, I'm making a list, I'm throwing pottery. And she's like, this is fantastic. I'm excited. And that's the lots I need, right? Uh and and granted I haven't. I might, you never know. But uh that ability to chase something that's always been uh always been there for me, and it's something that I can't separate myself from. Uh the the way that I make and the the way that I'm speaking, the stories that I'm telling. I I find great beauty and um I think great value in being able to be a part of something that's real. And so for me, that means making work that is true and honest, even if people don't like it. Even if people come in and and I have this happen all the time and and it used to bother me, uh, where people come in and and I I blow it, right? I'm like, they go, hey, I love this piece, I want to buy this piece. And I go, excellent, can I tell you about it? And I should know, I should learn just to be like, excellent, let's let me wrap this up for you. But I'll say, Let me tell you about this, let me tell you about this story, and let me point these things out to you. And in doing so, those people go, huh. Okay, well, thanks. I think I've changed my mind, right? And that sounds crazy because it's a terrible business decision. But I wouldn't have it any other way. Uh for me, uh being able to make work that really truly connects with the person and and connects with what they want to wake up and see in their home or in their office every day, something that inspires them, that matters more to me than than you know, some some money. Um, and and I feel the same the same way about teaching, you know, when we when all we're doing is pursuing those, you know, exceeds expectation or bright spot, and that becomes our target when our target is an evaluation or our our target is an award, or our target is this thing that truthfully does not matter. Um man, we miss out on the beautiful parts. We miss out on the fact that we get to share something that we care about and something that we're good at and something that really does affect and impact people and change their lives. Um, and so I would say, who cares about the exceeds expectations? Who cares if you're a bright spot in every category? Be a bright spot in the category that you care most about. Like pour yourself into what matters, you know? Yeah. So I I guess that's my takeaway. Be yourself.

SPEAKER_03 46:59

You know, we usually have one last question. And then I think I think that was it. But I will offer you this uh instead. Um, do you want to do any shout-outs to anyone that influenced your career in terms of art teachers or educators? Um, because we like to offer those shout-outs when we can.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

Yeah, of course. I mean, Al Cannet, you already have said his name, uh, Terry Winsloff, uh, even Lud Strommeyer, who is passed away and probably playing chess or uh maybe basketball somewhere. Uh I think that in terms of um current educators that inspire me, um Rebecca Stone-Danahy has had a huge impact on me and just the the lens on the on the impact that I believe we can make um and how we can steer this ship for all of us and how we can do this as a community. Uh Latanya Hicks, who is now the high school co-chair uh for the development committee, is one of the smartest uh people I've ever met in my life. Christina Correa uh is powerful and undying, and like the woman is a powerhouse not only of knowledge, but of I I think of regret and gumption. Man, I have too many people in my life uh that have inspired me. But uh yeah, right now though those people are on my heart. Those people have uh done incredible things and continue and and they inspire me.

SPEAKER_03 48:34

Well, thank you, friend. Uh it's always a joy. And even though you're just up the road, it's just lovely to see you when we get to see you, and uh really appreciate you spending some time and sharing your wisdom with us today.

SPEAKER_01 48:49

Yeah, thank you both. It's always good to see you. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

So that's your word. I it is it's how I start the silence.

SPEAKER_03 49:02

Well, um, what what the listeners didn't know is that there were there were tears throughout that conversation.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

I was wondering, I was ready to I'm ready to tell you about the Klinux bot.

SPEAKER_03 49:12

I know, I know. I um I don't know, it might be my age, but uh it just there's so much when I talk to Bryce, and I don't know if it's like just the the keeping like everyone he listed at the end, people that I adore, yeah, and have learned something from myself.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

Well like just his his abundance of enthusiasm and just passion for doing the art and as well as being a teacher. It's that it's not necessarily the balance, but it's just his enthusiasm and just love.

SPEAKER_03 49:48

And I love that you know, I I was thinking about, and I'm sure some of our listeners have watched him, but uh Vincent Van Nope, who's on Instagram and he's an art teacher, I don't know his real name, but he's he the joke is like a lot of times is he he does these things where like other teachers will ask him about you know making art or they think he's got an easy gig or you know, all of these things that we as art teachers just are like you're using well, you we're very used to, but we're also very cut off on. Oh, yeah, like and so to hear Bryce's take on that after teaching 25 years, it's funny because I know Bryce used to be annoyed by that. And I do think that there's something that after, you know, you start out as a young teacher and you're all enthusiastic, and you, you know, we we ebb and flow in our careers as we do in life. And I think that uh, you know, just hearing him saying, you know, it is the greatest job, like and kind of pushing that back on other folks because they clearly aren't as happy in their choice of profession or you know, getting to do something they love. And yeah, there's so much extra piled on us, uh and and sometimes it doesn't feel like we're always doing what we love, but we chose this profession very intentionally. And you know, we chose to support kids and support them in a very um intentional way through the through the visual arts. So I mean, I think that that's one thing, but I also commend him, you know, as as you know, Matt, I'm kind of going through like a style change and this weird, you know, I'm I don't sell my art, but I'm always making art. And I've really been on the struggle bus and in some ways. And it it's just nice to hear this reaffirmation of like it's not easy, and that you know, there's times where you want to burn it. And I feel like I I recently posted something on Instagram that was very vulnerable for me because I'm like, I don't know, is this kitschy? Because I really feel like it's a little kitschy, yeah. But the response was it's it was it had some beauty to it, so that was nice, but I think it's hard, it's so hard.

SPEAKER_00 51:54

Well, and I think you know, going back to what he had mentioned earlier as well, was just the idea that you know, we we build up in our head of oh, you gotta have you know the right scenario, you gotta have the perfect setting, you gotta have the perfect this, the perfect that, and there are so many things that can stop you. And I think that was an affirmation for me to really kind of re-evaluate my practice and just kind of well just get backing up. Yeah, I mean, it's it's easy, just so easy to do. I know this, you know. I've I've been probably um without for quite some time, and so and definitely need to get back into it. I I really do.

SPEAKER_03 52:38

Well, I know like even just doing some of the morning pages helps you those different things. I think I think uh interestingly enough, as a family, we're reading atomic habits right now, and I think that there are some things in there that's like, you know, you just think in terms of grit and resilience is that you build some habits in and you you I think even listening to Bryce, I know well, and I just know him him personally, I know he's got some habits around like his day and he gets up early, and you know, there's just uh there's some of those habits that are built in so that he has time to make art and be an art teacher. Yeah, yeah, you know. So I think that those are some some key.

SPEAKER_00 53:16

Hey, so speaking of those some of those resources, we just dropped a whole bunch, but uh where can our listeners go if they wanna find out some more of those resources?

SPEAKER_03 53:26

If you want the resources, you go to DavisArt.com.

SPEAKER_00 53:29

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:29

Yeah, I mean they've got resources. We gotta remind people just, but davisart.com has a lot of free resources, and in particular, they uh manage this podcast for us. And in that, what they do is they post every podcast and they post a resources page connected to it. So if you go to their free resources page on DavisArt.com, you can find the podcast and you can find all the resources for every podcast.

SPEAKER_00 53:56

Hey, you know what else they can do?

SPEAKER_03 53:58

What else?

SPEAKER_00 53:59

They can uh send us a message either through social media or uh email. Um, you know, they can find us on Instagram at creativity, or send us an email, um, maybe with a suggestion of an artist or uh just about anything else, and comments about our our podcast episodes, but at the creativity at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_03 54:26

So and we do our best, although both of us have some attention issues. So uh we're we're always trying to read those and and uh follow up. And even if we don't respond, we've definitely read them.

SPEAKER_00 54:36

And hey, you just had an answer. I was I was like, yeah, I did. That's right. I was just gonna say that. I had somebody who reached out to me and wanted to hear about uh or get all the info on like a lesson that I do, and uh was able to share that with them. That was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03 54:50

No, that's cool. That was really nice. Um, I wish I had our name written down right now, but thank you to the listener that sent that email. Um, and then the other thing we'd love it if you do to help keep this podcast going is to wherever you listen to the podcast on Apple or uh Spotify or you know, wherever, um, if you would rate and review it, we'd really appreciate it. Um those rate and reviews matter and it helps us keep it going. So thank you for doing that and thank you for listening, and we wish you a very creative week ahead.