Episode 261 – Dan Ryder – Making Every PD Count

In this episode, The Creativity Department welcomes back Dan Ryder to discuss how art educators can find value in professional development (PD) that isn't specifically designed for the visual arts. Dan shares how he adapts general education strategies for the art room, the ways he's supplemented the lack of arts-focused PD by creating his own learning opportunities, and the times he's been pleasantly surprised by professional development outside his discipline. Listen in for practical ideas and a fresh perspective on making every PD experience count.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Hi everyone, I'm Matt Grindler.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

And I'm Laura Grinler. And today on K-12 Arch at the podcast, we'll be chatting with our good friend Dan Ryder about outgrowing the agenda and keeping positive when PD misses your mark.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

I'm really excited because this person's been on here a few times and I think he's a stable at this point.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

A little bit. Like he's, I mean, to have Dan is always just a fun chat.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

And so for you, you always end up dying laughing. So it's the one.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

It's like an episode where I don't cry unless it's Christ's laughter. But uh so Dan comes on, I think, about twice a year, which is so awesome. Uh Dan Ryder, a very good friend. Um, Dan, why don't you take a minute to introduce yourself to the audience? If they have, if they're new to the podcast, maybe they don't know you.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

New to the pod. Hey, um, I am your stablemate, uh, Dan Ryder from the great state of Maine. Uh, 50 years strong. And uh yeah, I am the director of innovation and design at Community Regional Charter School up in Skowhegan, Maine. Yes, we have charter in the name, but anybody who knows charter schools of Maine knows we are all free in public. So uh we are all paid for by pupil dollars. Uh kid, the the money follows the kid. There is no outside money coming in uh to our schools. Uh, we make do with what we what we can and what we can scrape together uh through our own resourcefulness. Um, and we're uh a school that's based on personalized learning, uh proficiency-based, project-based, and uh generally trying to help kids become better problem solvers in our universe. So pre-K through 12. We're the only one like that in the state.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

So your title, tell us a little bit about your day-to-day.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

So my day-to-day is pretty awesome, even though it's kind of chaotic, because I can literally be doing just about anything in the district. So I might be facilitating a classroom seminar uh one minute, and then the next minute I'm helping a kid uh figure out how to run the 3D printers, and the next minute I'm helping a kid figure out how to navigate the relationship that they have with their uh estranged dad and whether or not they're coming to graduation or not, and how to handle that if they do. And then the next minute I'm sitting with the principal. We're making a design for professional development for this coming Friday, or and then how that will translate to the next two days, and then I might be cleaning out a toilet because what you're saying is your day-to-day isn't like a regular day-to-day routine. It really isn't. Like every day I show up and kind of go like, Well, these are the things I have on the list, but let's see what happens over the space of the day. But what's really cool uh for this coming year is I finally was able to pilot uh a program that I've already done before uh at my prior school. Um at the prior school, we called it the Success and Innovation Center, which was a combination makerspace and social work space. Uh and we smashed those two things together. So we we we create a problem-solving studio that uh focused on helping kids with the compass and the canvas. We helped them find direction, we helped them build and create what they needed in order to help them solve whatever problem they faced, and then we expanded that to not just kids but to the staff and to the community. I love that term from compass to canvas. That's cool.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

So now Well, it just it seems I mean it fits so well. We all know that social justice and the arts and innovation are all like hand in hand. Well, they're they're just good partners, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:20

And uh because innovation is really about, I mean, it's really about finding new solutions, right? Right? Like people like, oh, innovation technology. Well, in all, you know, honestly, yes, I end up being the de facto tech director as well, but I also spend about 20%, 25% of my time around tech direction, and then about 75% of my time around problem solving, helping kids, helping staff, helping connect with community, um, and doing that work. So we launched the Ravenworks, or I should say we relaunched that. We took a uh our makerspace, our digital makerspace in particular, and we we rechristened it uh with the same name, but it is now following the Success and Innovation Center model. So kids come in, they make a pass, they get uh a permission from their classroom facilitator. Hey, yes, they can come down and work for the next 20 minutes to half an hour. Actually, it's always it's always a uh 45-minute pass, but then they can just put a note saying send them back in 20 or whatever. Um and then the kid comes down, we work together on whatever it is they need. They walk through and I say, How might how might we be helpful? And then it's oh, I really want to do something about how gross downtown is. Can we do a downtown detox seminar uh or elective? And I go, sure, let's do it. And that led to uh a 13-14-year-old learner running a group of 12 other learners of across the age span from 12 to 17, going out and ever uh an hour every day and cleaning a different part of our downtown where our school is located. Wow, and that was one day, and then and then that same afternoon a kid came in and was like, I want to learn how to use the whack them art tablets. Okay, let's do that, and so on and so forth. And so it's so this coming year we've really formalized that that's going to be my my day-to-day role rather than being the fill-in sub for everything, which kind of which wasn't the plan, but it's a necessity, right? Like we just we just do what we need to do, right? And um, now it's going to be more that I am running the Ravenworks, I've got this great ed tech, I'm super stoked that he's gonna be there every day, so that if I need to step out, we don't have to close the space. He's there to help keep things going, support kids. Um, and he has a great relationship with the kids already. So I'm pretty I'm pretty stoked. There's gonna be I think it's gonna be a really good year. And um I still don't have any idea what tomorrow is gonna look like. But uh it's gonna it's uh the the goal is to make it a lot uh a lot more efficient and a lot more visible how we're able to use that space to make better connections with kids, families, community, and be more of a resource for everybody.

SPEAKER_02 7:55

It's all folded under the umbrella of creativity, which is amazing.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

Yeah. Absolutely. Like critical creativity is at the center of it. And we've talked about critical creativity in the past, which I love. You know, um, I'm glad that you kind of started with about next year because this conversation really is it's coming for kids and teachers in our school district about two weeks from when the teachers have to report back. And so I know that the person I'm sitting next to is starting to think a lot about uh going back to school and you know, the year, the outline for the year, but also like what am I walking into for professional development? So um we wanted to have a little conversation about back to the school kind of PD and PD in general. Um, and so I'm gonna turn it over to my husband to ask the first question.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Well, okay, yes. Um, thank you for putting it in that way.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Um I appreciate that you're not stressed about what's coming up at all, Matt.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

I'm I I mean I'm I'm not, but at this, I mean I am a little bit in some ways.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

You don't seem nervous or concerned in the least.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Oh, well, okay. Uh that's good. I I have that facade. Um you know, um, you know, as we it's interesting because you never know, as we were talking about before we started recording, you never know, and Laura just mentioned it, what you walk into as far as welcome back to school. Let's talk about our goal for our campus or our goal for the district or whatever that is. And usually there are it's leaning towards math, leaning towards reading. It's leaning towards you know, those those crucial and not that art is not crucial, but those what they consider those crucial subject areas. Um they're tested, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

They're held accountable for those.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Yeah. Um, you know, and that can sometimes change your your mental state even before you even walk in the room. And just kind of curious, like, you know, how do you mentally translate some of those things, some of those strategies, um to actually make them more for a creative, you know, classroom, a creative environment. Because it it is not just about art teachers and walking into those PDs, but I mean, it can also play into the art teacher as well.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Well, yeah, but it's I mean, uh but I think for art teachers in particular get kind of I feel like you guys get stuck. Say it. Just say it. It's it's all good. Well, you get stuck as the weird like stepchild kid that everybody's like, no, they're fine. Yeah, they're fine. We love them. Like they're technically part of the family.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Oh, they're they're the weird fringe, right? The weird family member, got it.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

They just look, they're special. And and we we don't really call them specials, like literally. I know we call it specials. No, it's allied art. Oh, that makes it feel so much better. Allied with whom? Itself, right? Because the only time you pair them up with anybody is with Jim, and you're like, that's not the same, right? Like, like, come on, what are we doing?

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Um music, PE, art, they all fit.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

I think that's the the the trouble. Well, there's there's a couple of troubles I think there are only two. Um, but the big one, like overarching, knowing that you know, we're not on an infinite podcast here. Um but we have this tendency, one, especially at the beginning of the year, to try to cram big, big thinking into a small amount of time and assume that it's going to work. When the assumption should instead be this probably won't go great in terms of like over time, whether the thing that we say in August is going to actually carry through to the end of the year. In part because it's uh absolutely reflexive to whatever has come before. It's not proactive to what we see might be coming. Right? Like when was the last time you went to a PD that was like, so this year we see coming up? Or we know that in the next five years, this is the trajectory that our district is going towards. And so we want to kind of get ahead of things.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Yeah, that's that's not how I mean, honestly, like I in a Texas world, and I don't know about other states, but here it's always also this new law was passed, and you have to now do this. And so it is it is definitely just reactive to whatever challenge the state has put in front of us, typically.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Right. And then it's not really about professional development, it's not about developing your skill set or your craft or or honing that which you have already, you know, gotten to a a fine sheen in the case of Matt, right? Like, like he already has so much. Like, what are we at this point? Like, we're really just walking into year 24 or something, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

Something like that. Right? Let's freaking go almost a quarter century.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Let's not put it that way.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Yeah. Well, you know, and you're half a century.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

So I think and I do think though, Dan, that's like the it is so hard. Like, you want, I mean, my my mindset was always like from both sides of it, being the person putting on the PD and and from the person receiving the PD. Like, I'm always going into it's like, how can I get the teachers happy and excited to be back with students? And they're they're not always in the best mindset to come back, and then you say, Oh, we have to do this law, or like, oh, right, you have to you have to do that, or oh, remember, you've got what is the bloodborne pathogen thing you got to do every year?

SPEAKER_00 14:24

The videos oh, we finally we crack that nut. We've been we've been and and the districts that are doing the the bloodborne pathogens and and all those required things for asynchronous video, like these are why we're glad it's 2026, we all have the internet, we we can do a lot of that uh not any less important, but also entirely pedantic, right? Like that's the whole point of it, it's to just be instructive, it's not supposed to like like break open new new ideas and thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

It's yeah, no, absolutely. But I do think that there's like this checklist though that is overwhelming to teachers when they come back, right? Like they're like sitting in a PD, like Matt was saying, about math or reading. And if you're not a math or reading teacher, you're wondering like check out especially when the instructor is not making it relevant to how can you infuse those techniques in your subject area, in your curriculum.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Oh, oh yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, right, and then and then you also then sometimes get the well, let's hear from art.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Let's let's put you on the spot.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Let's put you right on the spot. And and I'm sure the art teacher would love to partner with all of you, and you're like, uh kinda, yeah. Also I would, but uh yeah, that's really complicated because my schedule has been turned into this jigsaw of time. Absolutely, and I'm never on prepping and every other Thursday I get 20 minutes with the fifth graders because we've determined that fifth graders only need art for 20 minutes every two weeks, while third graders need it for 45 minutes every three weeks, like every third Wednesday of yeah, yes, right.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

So what do we have to do about it, right? Because we can convention about it. You're off you often feel like you're the person that's babysitting so that the rest of the staff can have conference conven uh planning together, and you're like, I want to partner with you, but exactly, and that happens so much, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:40

So the question is like like what can we do about it, right? Like, what's what options we got? So we got options as the people sitting there hearing it because we may not have any say in it, and then we've got options when we do have some say in it, what we can do about it, right? And I get to have a little bit, I'm lucky, I'm a district admin now, so I get to have a little bit of say in how we do things. Um and I'm and I'm really fortunate. I'm not responsible for all the P for the PD, but I am like a voice in the room helping share.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

You get to help guide it.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Yes, and I offer a lot of PD. Like I I and most of it is one-on-one type stuff. But uh for my money, uh, what I think districts and schools of of any size benefit from is when we focus on professional development that is more about uh mindsets and conceptual frameworks than about discrete tasks.

unknown 17:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Which I know is contrary to most PD that we get at the beginning of a year, right? Most of it's how to use this curriculum and that curriculum meet meet these needs of this test and that test, or or this law and that law.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

You know, I it's funny, as I was writing out these questions, I was um thinking about something my dad used to say who was uh who was a wrestling coach and would take us to numerous wrestling camps. And one of the things he would always say was, you know, whether what makes it a good camp or a good, you know, whatever, a PD or whatever it is, if you walk away with at least one thing. Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Just one.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Just one. I mean, it it could be a really vague idea, it could be a concept, it could be a really finite detail. And I think that's you know, that's part of kind of what keeps, you know, needs to keep you focused, is that looking for that thing looking for that thing. Yeah, is it is it all gonna pertain to you? No, you know, and and it goes back to what you were just saying about proactive actions because if you let that kind of start to bog you down and be like, oh my gosh, now I gotta do this, now I gotta do that, then that kind of takes away from your your passion of creativity, you know, that burnout, no matter whether you're a brand new green teacher or you've been teaching for what a quarter of a century, as you so nicely put. So it's I mean I heard a few turns. So it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

It's okay. Yeah, I think there's and we've both been around for about half a year.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

Yeah, he just hit a nerve there because he that he literally just turned 50. I think. Yeah. So me too! Last week. Imagine that. Oh my gosh, you guys are birthday buddies. Um so I I I like that you said that, Matt, because I think that that's really I mean, my hope is that people listening to this are thinking, yeah, it it, I mean, especially as the the oddball, you know, in the room. You know, and I mean oddballs I mean that with the most love ever. I mean, I I've been in this profession and I'm gonna continue to be in this profession much longer. And I we are sometimes on the we're not the first thought, like that's just what it is. But I love that you said like going into it, what's the thing that I can try to do? Well, I can try to look for a takeaway and not get so worried about like all the other things, or maybe I can look for a thought partner, maybe meet somebody new, or like I mean, I think too that uh when I go into a PD, I'm thinking not just thinking about the content, but I'm thinking about who can I network with, who are who are people that are like-minded and looking for those like-minded, you know, per people because you know, as art teachers, if you're the only art teacher in the building, you've got to find your like-minded folks because you need to know who they are. So, you know, looking for those takeaways, and I'm I think too, we are in a time of education where burnout is real for every teacher in the room, not just the art teacher. And I'm curious, like, what are your thoughts around you know the mindset walking into the beginning of the year and trying to think forward and be proactive about preventing your own burnout?

SPEAKER_00 21:00

So, what first I just gotta point out that if I went to one of Matt's dad's camps, I would love to come out with just knowing how to hear my coach scream.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

So I was already ingrained with hearing his tone, and I knew it out of anyone. So, yeah. But anyway, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Yes, no, I just I didn't know this about your dad, and that just brings me tremendous joys as a as a former assistant wrestling coach who was only an assistant because he knew how to manage children, not because he knew about wrestling.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

I mean, being a teacher and a coach does help you with that in the classroom.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Oh, it was pretty much like can I just get the kids to their to their match? Can I just they have all their all their stuff, and then can I sit there and clap and pretend I know how to give them advice? Um, but anyway, I digress. No. So one of the things I like about approaching professional development from a proactive place and seeing what is coming forward is something that my dear friend Elizabeth Ferkis, uh who's the principal at uh CRCS at the at the Overman Academy site, the upper school, she and I talk about this all the time. And it's about how can you have a PD that's optimistic? And how do we how do we come into a space excited by what we're about to do so that we can be even more excited when we are gonna go and actually do it, right? Like when like how do we how do we create an environment that isn't just like hey, fun in the moment, because we've all laughed and had great times and PD days, right? We've all been with the colleagues and like there's there's some sort of an activity or something or some conversation that comes up and everyone's in a great mood, right? It's it's rare to have a day that's just like a funeral. Right. So so we know that those moments exist, but we're talking about instead is not just having a moment like that, but coming in and we're going and saying, Hey, here is what we want for a theme for the year, or here are here are our big takeaways. We want kids to feel like they belong, and we want them to be willing to take challenging intentional risks, like mitigated risk. Not things that put them in danger, but try things that are new for them, be willing to to try and fail. And what can we each do within our locus of control, within our classrooms, within our impacts areas that encourages uh that uh you know, these outcomes that we want to see in our kids. And when we go in like that, then it becomes this like, well, what if we did this and what if we did this? And what if you did this? Well, I did this and this. And as we start talking about what could happen, we're focused more on possibilities, and we get into we can get into a generally more optimistic, you know, creative space, and then we can talk about like realities and and and constraints and what we have the function inside of, but it doesn't have to start with that, and it doesn't have to start with everything we're doing wrong, it can be more about everything we want to bring to kids that we want them to find joy in.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Well, I think that's interesting because Laura was saying earlier about the um the thought partners, and I I know that over the last couple of years, um, you know, since I moved up to middle school, um, I look towards my my um my French and Spanish teachers. And all of a sudden I, you know, I'm sitting with them and we're talking about stuff that they're working on and or are gonna want to do. And all of a sudden I'll be like, hey, you know what? Blah, blah, blah. You should try, you know, or you could add this component, and they're like, I never even thought about that. So, like, as you're sitting there, as you were just saying, as you were sitting there kind of popcorning ideas that leads into that kind of natural positive mindset or that that setting. So I think both of you bring a great point. Sorry. Oh no, it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Let's talk at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

Yeah. I was just thinking, I mean, some the the two things together, like coming into it from an optimistic place and a what we're doing well, and then you know, what do we want to bring kids this year? And then thinking about you know, the collaboration there is like there's there, I think one of the things that sometimes we don't do well is see the commonalities of educators. Like we get so, especially at the secondary level, we're like, uh I'm doing that island, and that's what I do. Yeah, the islands, and I think the silos are such a problem sometimes. And I wish we would just talk about instruction. Is it like like uh like let's just talk about instruction together? And like, what are like like you said, Dan, like what are the things we want to bring these students this year that are gonna bring them excitement and joy and get them plugged into actually like caring about whatever it is we're trying to teach them?

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Yeah, you know, one of the things that uh we did, I mean, this is so long ago at my my last school, but I loved I loved it. We did a a thing, uh, we had a literacy committee, and we tried to approach literacy um a very deliberate effort to constantly be reminding ourselves of the actual definition of literacy, which isn't reading and writing. It's it's able to solve problems, able to make meaning, able to uh explain to others, right? Or or teach to others, uh, and and um able to uh demonstrate complex understanding, right? Like like the definition of literacy is that's why you can be literate at all these different things and literate in some ways and literate in others, and right. So when we did that, then what we would we did a couple of different, I think we called them literacy fairs for lack of a better term, but the people on the committee like set up a bunch of stations where the staff could come through and see a bunch of different strategies on display, and then wasn't now you need to go through all of these, it was pick one or two that align really well from your perspective to what you're doing, because these are either they were either like research-based, and we hear that all the time, and I hate it, but because where was the research done? Oh, with a bunch of suburban uh affluent kids in you know middle America. Okay, well, yeah, yeah, because that's what all of our kids are like. But but the but the idea of of still having something that's got some that's got some some weight behind it in terms of of the research or or you know the backing of of some endorsements, right? Plus some things that are kind of those those ideas adjace, which is kind of like what my critical creativity stuff, if you break it all down, you can figure out that they're that they're built on the spines and and the skeletons of stuff we've been doing and doing and doing, uh, but just with uh a a creative expression lens on top of it, right? So uh the idea just being if we can help those people find one or two things that we know help, and we can get them to adopt it and then talk about it. Hey, you're gonna use one of these with in in good faith for the next month, you're gonna use it regularly, which means like in a month and in every other day block school, that means you're gonna come up with like three different times you used it, right? Like that seems reasonable. You're not doing it every day, but every but once a week over the next month, you're gonna use the strategy. That's fair, and then bring in some exemplars of like what kids produced and bring in stuff where kids struggled and bring in. Let's look at the struggle, like what went what didn't go great on this, like uh and get away from well, the kids just lazy. Well, are they, or were they just not interested in the content, or were they not interested in were they struggling cognitively with the right strategy? Like, what's actually going on? And we can look at quote unquote fails, you know, with with those lenses with a lot more value in them, and then we can be open and honest too. Like, I totally explained this wrong.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Whoops, like or not wrong, just you know, in a different way that uh I've had yeah, I've had conversations with kids before, and like I'm sitting there talking with them, and they're mad at a previous teacher who's like, This teacher thinks I'm dumb because they keep explaining it the same way and it doesn't make sense, and then all of a sudden I'm like, Okay, hold on, let's change your mindset just a little bit. And I was like, you know what? They were explaining it to you in a way that made sense to them when they first learned it. So that's how they're I said they're making sense to them, even though it may not make sense to you, and all of a sudden, like their whole mood, their whole demeanor totally changed, and they were like, Oh, I didn't even think about it that way.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

But and I guess they're still in a job at the Ravenworks, Matt. I think I could I think we could use you at the Ravenworks because that's the exact conversation so many times, and that John has so many times. It's like have you just thought for a minute that maybe they're not out to get you?

SPEAKER_01 31:25

They just don't maybe they're a human being, maybe they're having to push down a lot of stuff, and then all of a sudden it just triggered something. Um, you know, I was I think one of our other questions was gonna be about those strategies and things, but I think you you really kind of um hit a lot on that. Um, but I'm I'm kind of curious in the idea of you know, let's say you try all these things, let's say you look for your thought partner, you do all these things, what what do you what do you do? Like what if all those things aren't working, if those things, if you're still finding yourself struggling, you know, looking maybe like an unconventional space or you know, or or look bigger than just a thought partner. I I don't know. I'm just really kind of curious if you have ideas or suggestions about what to do if you find yourself still struggling.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

Like, so if your campus sucks. I mean, or no one, I don't I don't necessarily know about that. Yeah, where if you're just not finding it there, is that what you're saying? Like if you're not finding the right in front of you.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Where else can you go to look for that to really be able to unconventional or conventional, either way?

SPEAKER_00 32:41

Right? So I guess uh a couple suggestions that I make is it's why it's helpful to be part of communities of communities of practice is such a cornfall way of saying it out, but it but to be a part of a community that's bigger, right? So so even if you're uh an introvert, which I love introverts, I'm actually a closeted introvert. I actually need lots of solo time to recharge, um, even though I'm very comfortable in groups of people. Um but uh like I really think that having an outlet where you can ask that question, um like here's what happened. I'm stuck. I don't feel like I don't really know that other people around like in my building are quite getting it. So if that's on LinkedIn or Blue Sky or or Facebook or whatever, whatever your your method is, right? Like having having that group. But then you got people who are like, well, I don't really want to get into being public about my my stuff. So then I kind of do like something I had to do when I felt like I was uh a kind of a department of one when I shifted my English teaching to to design and engineering focus, and like people are like, that's great, just don't make me do it. Um is I just kind of had to look inside of what's my locus of control, like where can I like where can I go with what I'm being told I need to be doing, and how how like what's the smallest thing that I could do where I still feel like it's valuable and I'm getting excited about doing it for myself, yeah, right? So you're sitting in that PD and you're like, Oh, I wish I had a thought partner to help me with this, and I don't, so it's just me. And I'm seeing them say, we need to be doing, let's just use writing across the curriculum, right? Because that's that's one that shows up all the time, right? Or reading, because right now we don't talk about writing anymore, we're just talking about the science of reading till we are blue in the face, right? Or numeracy, whichever we we want. Um, I'm about to do a computational thinking uh class for a week uh with my buddy uh that we're we're running for the University of Maine. And um we're gonna be talking about computational thinking and game design and combining those two things, right? So we could we could go down a math road, right? You're like you're hearing all the stuff about kids need more numeracy, and you're like, I really like I don't know how I'm gonna get in all these projects that I wanted already. We're playing to do around color, around shape, around texture, around right, like all these composition skills, right? So you just start looking for yourself as what's the smallest deliverable that I could do that gets me really excited, right? And like just kind of shrink the world down as that's actually something I learned from Elizabeth is shrink the world down so there's fewer options. You know, here's my goal is how might I, you know, in this case is I because you're you're working on yourself, you don't have those other people, but how might I and and push to like looking around the room going, well, what's the thing that brings me the most joy when I teach it? Right? Because then I'll have that thing I already love. Like I love like say I love sculpture. Cool, all right, we're gonna use we're gonna get the clay out, and we're gonna we're gonna use the the non-hardening clay so we can make lots of mistakes and everything will be fine, right? And our fingers will smell bad, and then we're gonna, but it's cheap and we can get the bucket of yeah, modeling. And it's it's all like greasy, and so I'm gonna buy a bunch of those little those little um condiment cups to put their like their little mini project in, and you're like, okay, so I gotta do numeracy and I gotta do computational thinking. All right, we're gonna do patterns. We're gonna do patterns and we're gonna do sculptures and we're gonna use patterns in our sculptures, and we are going to make little they would be the equivalent of a meeple for a board game. That's the size we're we're cooking it because we're gonna make it really small, but it has to use a repeating pattern within your figure, and then you need to partner because I don't want you to become you don't have to become best friends with these people here at the beginning of the year that are in your space that you don't know very well yet, but you do need to make sure that yours has a pattern that is either shared, replicated, or sequential to three other people. So you do have to say, All right, this is the kind of thing I want to do, is I want to do a pattern, a dot pattern. Okay, cool. He wants to do another pattern, but he's gonna do it instead of dots, it's going to be lines, but it's going to be the same pattern just in lines, and then this other one is going to do divots, and this other one, and so we all have the same pattern, but in three different ways, so we can look at repetition and right, and these different ways of thinking about how do you find a pattern, right? And then maybe you bust out that game set that drives me insane because I can't right, but you bust that out as a little warmer, right? And you're like tossing down the shapes, and they're like, tell me when you guys see a set, and someone yells it out, I see one, where is it? And they come up and they tap their fingers on it, and you're like, Yes. By the way, it's a use a document camera or an old iPad, put it on so it's up on your screen, and have it look down. Although I do love hover camps, they're really cool, they're just a little pricey, but they're awesome. Um but um, but something like that, where you're like, okay, I didn't have someone else. I know I love doing this. I've got to work in something that I'm not sure I'm feeling, but I'm gonna use the thing that I already love because if it doesn't go great, I'm still gonna go do this thing again because I freaking love culture with kids, right? Or I or I love doing doing um textured acrylic with kids, or I love doing uh scratch scratch art with kids. Like I just oh, I can't I can't get enough of doing it, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:19

Like it's called scorpito.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

Scorpito. Yes, super cool word.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

I know it's a brilliant and I love it. And I I think it what I love about it, Dan, is it's just a a great example of uh, you know, just getting excited about what you already love and trying to think through how can I blend things in a way that that uh supports the mission of whatever the the administration or the school and or the district is kind of uh setting forth, but also allows me to still do the thing I love. And I think that that's that's the perfect place to be in, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:06

And I know it's super hard, but be really loud about it. Like, like, and by loud, loud is relative, right? But like shoot it, take a bunch of pictures and shoot them off to your director of professional development, your your superintendent, your building principal, and whomever else is on like whatever your team might be, right? And and it's not a br it's not bragging, it's just hey, I just wanted you to see like this is how we're trying to do this, and if you had any feedback, that would be great. The kids are pretty proud of what they did, and I just want to make sure that I'm not messing them up, right? Like, I like I'm checking, I'm I'm checking for my own knowledge, like yeah, is this accurate to what your goals goals were? Right? Like, I just had them create all these representations of of their comprehension of this text that was there in the in the curriculum book that I know the that the whole seventh grade received, and while like we couldn't really pair up to do it because the timing was never going to work out. I grabbed a one of those, I found a passage from early in the book. Kids said they'd already read it, they're like, I already know this, like, but do you? But you're right, and then and then we went and we did um, you know, we did value, we did, we did 10 values, uh like, or yeah, we did 10 value black and white graphite drawings.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

And their constraint was they had to have all 10 values from a vet from a value chart that they made that we can then go over with the and they have to self-assess and put their little value chart and put the the square over with masking out the rest and match it up to their value chart. Okay, right, to show that you understand like what the protagonists in this one-page story experienced.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

Love it. Um I think going back to the the communities of practice, I would like to just bring that forward again because I know in my own world and uh my career, having a connection to my state uh art teacher association and and obviously national, that having those people, and they're not in my local, like right here in front of me, but knowing that I can reach out to those people or build a professional learning community with those folks also was like a game changer for me personally. Um and I think you know, sometimes people don't know necessarily what the the the benefit of being a member is, but it to me it's mostly the connections you make more than anything else. It's with the people. Like, you know, there are people that I'm gonna meet at NAEA that I would have never met, you know, and they're now going to influence my thought on instruction in a new way. And even though it's not like a formal plc, like I've got a little text change with like four people that I met at NAEA or something like that, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

And you and like Maine is fortunate that I know our art art teaching community or our education community is also very connected.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

Extremely, we know them very well too.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Right? And they're super, they're super good, right?

SPEAKER_02 43:30

I love your main art teachers association. They are I know actually know the the president and the yeah, like they're just like amazing. And if I'm just gonna say like that the and they're small, right? They're small, but they're so they're amazing.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

Yeah, I mean, they're they're small, but they're very active. They are constantly offering things and doing things. And I I don't know how you would be an art teacher in Maine and not know that they exist or and Or that they have a very like they're very affordable, they're programming, they're they're super like tuned into what's actually going on. Uh they seem and they go up, you know, they've had their they're up and down with like anything, but every time I've been apart or or been in a room with them, or we host uh I had uh we hosted a little gathering uh at at my school. Oh, this is a couple years ago now, where they needed a place to meet, centrally located in the state. And I was like, uh, you can come to my school and and you know, and then it turned into me sitting with them like and us kind of workshopping and collaborating on ideas for like two hours when I thought I was like, don't you guys have meeting stuff you need to do? Like, but it was just they were getting inspired by our space and and it was just like a it was really positive. Um but it's like those exist for every those exist for for for every weird subsection of education, right? And it's just a matter of hunting them down, or it's a matter of like the weirdo on the other end of a call. I like I I'm thinking like um I don't know if you guys know Donnie Pearcy, um, but he's just this amazing educator um in Kentucky, and he's such a good dude. And he uh he just sends me memes. I love that or he'll send a thing that he did or some goofy thing, but he he put up his ISTE schedule this year as a um MS DOS prompt where you typed in commands and it would list like his schedule. But if you typed in a bunch of Easter egg type things, you just messed around a little bit, it was all 1980s like movie themed stuff, and it was it was it was amazing. It was just like it was so cool. And it was like when I I saw my Insta, I was like, oh dude, that was so great. And I was laughing. I'm like, you know, you could also, and like we just got going for a few minutes on these ways that like, oh, how'd you do that? And he's like, Oh, I use like I use an AI coding tool, and I just like I kind of it took me a minute to kind of figure out how I wanted it to be, and then I just started getting really too obsessed. And I'm like, oh, but you could do like with kids, you could have them create websites from different eras that have to reflect historically and culturally what was happening at the time while also having authentic like math knowledge and that like we just started ideating on it, and that's all just because we shoot little dumb messages back and forth to each other.

SPEAKER_02 46:54

Well, I mean, we the three of us wouldn't be friends if Twitter hadn't been a thing 10, 15 years ago. Like, I mean, that's that's the thing. You just score one out for Twitter in the old times. There it is. That's the old time. Way back when way back when.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

I mean, Dan, I know you've been on here a few times and you know how we um start to wrap up our podcast. Um, we could spend probably you know as long as we could with talking with you, but um likewise our last our last question is sometimes our our most difficult one, but uh you know, what do you what's something you want to leave our listeners with, especially as we talk about, as some aren't gonna want to hear this, going, you know, getting ready to gear back up and and go to school soon or start back.

SPEAKER_00 47:44

Just lean into the joy. Like, I know that sounds like I know it sounds like a Hallmark card, and we'll make a movie out of it, like for like the Christmas season, and there'll be this lady who goes back to her hometown, and there'll be this guy who used to be kind of dorky and blah blah blah blah. It'll be called lean and a holiday celebration, but really like I and it's hard, and I'm the first one to admit it. I I have uh I wear my heart on my sleeve, I get frustrated, I do this thing called getting underbitey, it's not great. It's it's like this cold dead dad stare that I and this clenched jaw, and kids know when I'm in a not great mood. Um and it can happen during staff meetings, it can happen during class, it can happen at kind of at any time. But I'm going to therapy, I've been going therapy for years, art therapy, by the way, and that is normative. Um for real, for real. But um but what helps me most personally is when I remember like what I get excited and joyful about doing, right? And we get to an end of a school year, and true story, I get to the end of end of the school year, and it's very often that I'm like, oh, could we just have two more weeks so we can do this thing that we just kind of came up with, or oh, I cannot wait till fall so we can do this, or we start planning the next year. And other people are like, We let's can we just get through? Can we just survive? And I have those days too, but it's really more like oh, but the possibilities kind of awesome to have, right? And my friend Ben uh Luce, who who works there at CRCS, he has this vision for this year of doing a whole year of tabletop gaming, board games, card games, uh role-playing games as a structure for building community and with you know different types of leaderboards and also like number of games, kind of taking board game geek and like seeing how we can turn that into a cultural, like uh a community culture piece, especially since we're trying to push away from screens and and and more deliberate in how those are deployed and used. And um and and I'm just I'm so excited, he's so excited about it. And it's just that's a sort of thing. Like it doesn't have to be that everyone should do that. No, but if you have people on staff who are tuned in with the kids and he did a whole year of doing board game related electives and seminars, and he got all this like kind of a critical mass of our of our student population all know Mr. Luce plays board games and and stuff, and they don't know that I was weird because there's my whole giant uh cabinet of them back there. But it's fine, it's fine. I'm not jealous at all, um, or feel like I've been left out at all. Um sorry, therapy next week. But just leaning into that so it's so good. And then to know that your leader is leaning in because Elizabeth's like, yes, let's do it. And he knows I'm an enthusiast, and I'm like, yes, let's do it, because I'm all about game-based learning too. And I'm like, oh dude, we can run a seminar that's all built around Catan and we can do this and this and this and this and this. And it yeah, it gets it got a little like crazy out of control, but that's the joy, right? It doesn't mean the other crap isn't happening, it doesn't mean that we're not also dealing with this, this, this, this, and this, or our kids aren't struggling with this and this, or our colleagues aren't feeling this and this. It's just like when we go into the PD, if we go in already expecting uh to just have our spirits crunched.

SPEAKER_02 51:57

And that's what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 51:58

Yeah, we've we've lost before we've even shown up.

SPEAKER_02 52:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:02

But if we go in, you know, uh, you know, kind of Juliet style and look to like if looking, liking move, right? Like what let's see what happens, right? And lean into those those little those little joys that that make us do what why the heck we're we're teaching creativity and while we're teaching art and while we're teaching design. There's gotta be a reason.

unknown 52:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:31

And it's because it's joyful, because if it ain't, what are we doing?

SPEAKER_02 52:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:38

Dan, I just really gotta just tell you thank you. Um, we greatly appreciate you coming on here and and uh meeting your your apparently two podcasts a year quota. Um we just can't thank you enough. Thank you so much for being on here.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

Oh, I love it. I love hanging out with you guys every time. Thank you so much for asking. Because uh I'll always say yes. That's what we're hoping for.

SPEAKER_02 53:05

That's yes, we yes, absolutely. Thanks, Dan.

SPEAKER_00 53:09

You're the best. You guys are the best.

SPEAKER_02 53:13

As always, a super fun conversation with Dan. Uh when is it not? But I know he's just you know, you meet these people along the way at education, and you're like, wow, just so much to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 53:25

And it's crazy because we keep talking about how we want, and I don't think we've actually met physically in person and in either quite a long time or at all.

SPEAKER_02 53:36

So yeah, I know that that's wild, but you know, I do find that uh in all his uh humor, he is also a really grounded and incredibly smart human that has so many uh points of wisdom to share. Oh my goodness. I think you know what unites us in our philosophy and Dan's philosophy is this idea around community and connection. And at at the central theme with this idea around professional learning or sitting in professional developments at the back school time, and maybe they're not hitting the mark. No, you know, he brought forward that you just got to keep looking for those people that are the right people for you.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

Yeah, to continue that because you never know, even the people you might be teaching with or had been teaching with at campus for a while, and you think, oh, there's no way we don't have anything in common, you'd kind of really be surprised, and next thing you know, you're sparking off ideas back and forth, and like, hey, how about this? Oh, hell how about that?

SPEAKER_02 54:41

So I think getting out of your silo, and you know, even if it's just down to like looking for what is your goal this year? What is your goal?

SPEAKER_01 54:52

Well, and I love the fact, you know, I well, I always find it interesting and kind of uh humbling in a way when when we talk with him because I always forget that he you know started as English, as language arts, and you know, and yes, he was creative even in even in that, even in another subject area was still pulling a lot of those creativity pieces into it.

SPEAKER_02 55:23

So well, and he reached out to us in in K-12 Art Chat back when he was on Twitter, and you know, it's just a perfect example of you don't have to teach the same subject area to have similar goals and mindsets around education and educational philosophy. And when you can find those people that that are there for you, then it helps you avoid some of the burnout and some of the you know frustrations, especially when you're sitting in a professional development that you're like, what is what what am I doing here? You know, and I also liked you know the idea of just trying to get one thing out of it, just just look for that one thing, you know.

SPEAKER_01 56:04

So, you know, uh my dad, even though he was a coach, was a science teacher and uh a very creative science teacher before it was even considered the thing. So, but you know what else? Uh you kind of hit on the idea of you know the people and being interested and and all the things you can look for. Where where can some people look for some more information?

SPEAKER_02 56:30

Well, we try to say this every single wrap-up. I think so. But I just think it is really a truly wonderful free resource. If you go to davisart.com and you look under free resources, you will find our podcast in every episode, and right alongside it, you'll find a list of resources to accompany it. So get in there and start looking around, go back and listen to some some older podcasts and find those resources. There's a wealth of information and resources there that you can, you know, just dig into. And I I I appreciate Davis for housing all of that for us.

SPEAKER_01 57:06

And, you know, if people want to connect further or connect with additional people or even with us, um, a really good way to do that is through our social media on Instagram at creativity. Um, or send us an email. We would love to connect with you further and can send you and share more resources with you at the creativitypt at gmail.com. Um, we would love to hear from you and love to hear you know feedback about our episodes and about any episode or one we might have in the future.

SPEAKER_02 57:40

Lastly, if you can rate and review and give any feedback wherever you listen to this podcast, so whether that be Apple, Spotify, Amazon, um, just give us that thumbs up and I sound like a YouTuber. But it does help us if you do rate and review the podcast. Subscribe. Yes, thank you. Um, so make sure to do all the things. Uh, but most of all, make sure to have a wonderful and creative week ahead. Thank you.