Episode 265 – Lori Kirksted – Leading with Vulnerability

Taking on a leadership role when you don’t feel ready can be daunting. For art educators, leadership can mean advocating for your program, supporting your students, or speaking up for the value of arts education. In this episode, the Creativity Department talks with Lori Kirksted, author of The Imposter’s Guide to Authentic Leadership. Lori shares what she’s learned about leading with vulnerability and authenticity. Discover practical insights for finding your voice, building confidence, and leading without losing yourself. 

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:11

Hi everyone, I'm Matt Grenler.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

And I'm Laura Grenler, and today on K12 Art Chat the podcast, we'll be chatting with Lori Kirkstead about leading with vulnerability through process, purpose, and self-doubt.

SPEAKER_02 0:25

We have with us a another wonderful person who We've just made best friends with. Well, that too, but you know, I mean, thanks to Davis for just connecting us with additional people and just yeah, just you know, when you have that pre-planning meeting with someone, and all of a sudden you're like, okay, we could just show up and just hit record and just see what happens and just yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

I've got that. But yeah. So we're very excited to have Lori Kirkstad with us. And uh, you know, let's just start at the beginning, Lori. Can you tell us a little bit about who you are and your background and your uh connections to the arts and all the things?

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Absolutely. So hi Matt and Laura first of all, like thank you so much for having me on this podcast. I'm really excited and I'm glad we're best friends now. So a little bit about me is I've spent about about 20 years in marketing, most of it inside education companies like Lexia and Core. Um, I started my career in agency work. Um, and then as I went into education, I was responsible for building content marketing and demand generation programs mostly. And at the end of the day, connecting these organizations with the people they actually wanted to talk to. So a few years ago, I did get laid off, unfortunately. I've I've actually been laid off three times in the last four years. So yeah, it happens. But a few years ago, I got laid off and I stepped out on my own and I started a consultancy called Content Uncomplicated. And I primarily work with education companies on the content strategy and execution with a strong emphasis on the long-form content that really AI can't master quite yet. And I have a deep experience in the science of reading, many things in literacy and math. Um, but the reason I'm here with you today is I wrote a book, and it's called The Imposter's Guide to Authentic Leadership. And that was primarily sparked by getting laid off and all of the emotions that it brought up. So what happened was when you get laid off, you feel a certain type of way about yourself, but then you start to hear from people. And what happened with me is I was noticing a pattern, and that same pattern showed up in pretty much everyone that I talked to. It's like you're really, really good at your job, and then you get promoted. And then the second you're actually in charge, instead of just doing the thing, it's like all of your confidence suddenly disappears and you feel like a total fraud. And you you don't expect that. And it's like, what is happening right now? It's almost like you snuck past like a checkpoint with like fake credentials that you weren't supposed to get through, even though you were promoted. This is yours. It doesn't feel like that. It's like, am I am I supposed to be here right now? So that that's what I did. I wrote it for anyone going through that exact transition, you know, especially for people who call themselves people pleasers, which I'm a recovering one myself, because a lot of the feelings that come from like they used to come from like getting the worth from the external validation. And then suddenly there's no one there because you are the boss now. You're not supposed to rely on external validation. And I think the way this applies to educators, like as I told you, my wife is an educator. So though, even though I'm in marketing and content marketing, I'm an educator of sorts. But I live with an educator, so I know how it is, you know. Um, but when I started talking to educators, I honest to God, I was blown away by how much it fit in because I'm I'm a corporate girly. I'm not in the classroom, but everyone feels this way. It doesn't matter what job you have. So, you know, that's really why I'm excited to be here, not just to talk about imposter syndrome and what to do, but especially to help educators and especially art educators, because that's a little bit different than the typical educator in the classroom.

SPEAKER_02 4:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Well, and I mean, I do my my job is a lot of what you just said, um, my job uh changed this summer, and now I'm working directly as the the well the boss for our publishing, our marketing, uh, comms teams in our in the nonprofit I work for. And those are not my areas expertise. And so, I mean, I am an expert art educator. I am a curriculum girl, I am a arts leadership girl, I am all of those things. So I feel this little bit of imposter syndrome at this very moment, Lori. How serendipitous. Yeah. But you know what else I've learned is um, and I knew this already because Matt and I had to dabble in, you know, how did we build the podcast and all of those things because we should independently.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

How do we run a business?

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Well, all of those things. But I do feel like all the arts connect to that creative content and the marketing and that side. So your brain is definitely a creative, which is exciting. Yeah. Um you know, one of the things that is interesting is that our educators, but especially art educators, tend to be hesitant to see themselves as leaders or take uh a leadership role or jump in the administrator pool. And a lot of that I think is because they would see themselves as an imposter because we are specialists and we see ourselves as art educators. So, how can we direct the math and science teacher or all those things? So, you know, I guess thinking about that, how can educators reframe that imposter syndrome as a sign of creative growth rather than a lack of their capabilities?

SPEAKER_00 6:24

That is such a great question. So I I think it comes down to visibility, honestly. Like when you were just saying this, when you're in your classroom, you are the expert. You're the boss in your classroom. There's no question, even if you don't feel like it, all those kids are looking at you like you're the expert, right? So, like you know, you're medium and you're kids, and like you know when your project is going off the rails before it does, because you you're the master of that ceremony right there. But the second you step into leadership, whether it's like actual type, you could be the person that other teachers are turning to for advice. So it doesn't have to be formal, but it's like you're suddenly out of that comfort zone. And this is really important here. It's your brain, it reads unfamiliar as unqualified. Like, think about that. Unfamiliar is not the same thing as unqualified. Like, it's not a flaw in how you think. That's really just how brains work in general. They treat new things as dangerous. I mean, sometimes with me, I treat new things like, ooh, that's novel, ooh, that's really fun. But then the the next layer of, oh, I'm in charge of this. And it's uh it's really paradoxical because how can you be afraid when you you've you've never done this before? So how how could you hold yourself up to any standards when the standards aren't even there yet? But you know, the thing I want people to hear is just remember that the discomfort that doesn't mean you don't belong there. Right. Like it's a signal, but it doesn't mean, oh, you're you're a faker, you've got to get out of here. But it is telling you that you're doing something new. And you talked about this before. Like, I really think creative people, they're more equipped than uh anyone else in the building, I think, to do that. Really, honestly, if you think about it. You you make decisions without incomplete information, you you don't get handed a finished like vision of a piece before you start, or you're responding to what is happening in front of you in real time. And it's with art, you trust art is all about trusting the process, right? You don't see it at the end. So I think I think that's leadership is trusting the process. So instead of trying to talk yourself out of the doubt, I would say reframe it as notice the doubt and just tell yourself it's just the feeling of not having done something before, not that you can't do it. Those are two very different things.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Kind of on that note, sometimes or most of the time, when I feel discomfort in something new to me, that's also a signal that it's a learning opportunity that, oh, I can dive in and learn something new to better to be a better leader, so that I can better support these people or this experience or this, you know, team. And I really think of that discomfort as just a my brain signal to say, hey, it's time to dive in and learn something new, which is what we hope. I mean, for all people is to be lifelong learners. So I that's how I look at it a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

I totally agree. We spend so long trying to become experts in our field. And what does that mean? You you become an expert and then there's nothing else to learn. There's always more to learn, but right? What does that mean? You don't just stop learning, there's always something else to learn, and the world's always changing and everything's intersectional.

SPEAKER_02 9:47

Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm thinking of several different points. I'm thinking of, you know, times where I have conversation with other subject areas, and they're we just sit there and just start kind of popcorn ideas, and all of a sudden I'm like, well, hey, you could do this to tie in that. And they're like, Oh, never thought about it that way. Or, you know, or I'll be sitting in a meeting of some sort, and all of a sudden, um, you know, I hear this thing that all teachers, as as air-quoted, all teachers have to apply or use in their classroom. And then all of a sudden I just start I just start thinking about the the connections that it does have and the ways that like I'm like, oh well, that makes perfect sense because I can use it this way, or I already am using it that way in my classroom, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

So well, I again just going back to the creative piece of being the art or arts educator, um, because I think this applies to our our probably some of our music and theater friends as well and dance friends, is that we we really are those teachers that can pivot and be flexible and make different decisions in the moment, whereas sometimes that's harder for other curricular uh experts. And I think that that's that is the nature of being process-based and really thinking in a way that doesn't always have an end product in mind necessarily. But the product might be that we want our students to be critical thinkers, that we want our students to be lifelong learners, that we want our students to appreciate the arts as adults, you know, versus this very finite product, you know. And I think having those big open-ended um kind of, well, in curriculum world, we call those enduring understandings, that helps us be the creative leaders in the in the space, especially when we're talking to other educators. And I think that goes to like working, and I don't know, Matt, if you've had this experience, but I know I've been in teacher meetings, and um I think this is part of what propelled me into leadership in campus administration was that I could think outside the box for how to help a student, you know, a struggling learner or uh a behavior uh challenge, things like that. Oftentimes I would find myself as the one speaking up and saying, Well, have we tried XYZ? And could we think about something different? And those kinds of uh, you know, open-ended risks didn't come from everyone in the room. And that's kind of where I found that I was gonna, you know, start moving into leadership.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

I mean, I start to see it as like me being being the educator in the room, and you see a student struggling with a concept, you actually sit down with them, you talk with them, and then you start like pulling kind of abstract qualities about that concept, or things that might be somewhat related, or at least you know, sort of parallel to it, and then all of a sudden the kid is like, oh. You know. Um, I'm starting to think about you know our our creative friends and and how we sometimes do have a picture in our head of what you know leadership might look like or is supposed to look like. Um, you know, it's supposed to be polished and we're supposed to be a certain way, and we're supposed to be all put together and and all of that. You know, how do you supposed to wear a suit or a tie, um or a Star Wars tie, if if that. Um how do you balance kind of being open about you know what you don't know as as a leader, kind of main but still maintaining confidence because you don't want to seem like I have no idea what I'm doing or what I'm talking about. And then that's when that imposter sinks in.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

So you know, this makes me think of it's like two things. When you say polish, I'm thinking of like what someone looks like, and I think of one of my middle school art teachers who always wore only purple and had paint all over her, and like that's the art teacher, you know, that's what you think of, and that still does exist, but it does I but more on the internal side. I always come back to this distinction between confidence and certainty, like because people treat them like they're the same thing, and they're definitely not. Like certainty is I have all the answers, which is crazy because you don't. And confidence is I trust myself to figure this out even when I don't have them yet. So I I really think that's the big distinction here of those two are two completely different things to be running on. Like the whole thing, fake it till you make it, you can't just take that at face value. You can't freak out. Like, yeah, we're just gonna fake a little bit of confidence. Don't freak out, but also don't fake things you actually don't know. Your job to fill in those gaps, you know, and admit that you wouldn't have been promoted unless I would hope that someone thought you could do this, but it's not gonna be you show up the next day and you know how to do everything perfect. You're a teacher, right? You know what it's like for a student to go from preschool to 12th grade. You don't learn everything all at once. This is the same thing with this new career progression for you.

SPEAKER_03 15:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

So I think about a teacher stepping into a lead role for the first time. Like, there are things that in my corporate world as a content person, I never had to worry about budget. I wrote my things, I made my videos, I did my podcast, and it was great. You get the gold star. This is wonderful. But I can imagine, you know, if someone's never had to justify a budget to an admin in their whole life, you can do it. No one doesn't have the the ability to do it, but if you have never, it's literally what words do I use? What format? What do I use? A spreadsheet? You need to have someone teach you how to do that, but then you put your own spin on it and you know, that sort of a thing. So I just think that kids can tell when a teacher is faking stuff. You know, kids can see through you. Oh, yeah. And adults can too. And it's like you have to have this. I like to say that one of my superpowers is I can easily spot the vibes that are not great. Like I can tell when people are lying to me. But also, too, as a leader myself, when I can see people are struggling, I make the space, you know, for lack of a better phrase, a safe space to say, it's okay if you don't know this. Like you haven't done this. Let me show you. Then if you don't do it the next five times, that's different. But that's that's a big, big distinction here. Certainty, nobody is certain all the time. Even if you are the CEO and people think you should be certain, there's no way to be a hundred percent certain. But having confidence in what you do know and knowing that there are things you don't know and that everything can go off the rails because we don't know what tomorrow's gonna bring. That's different.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

I'm I'm thinking about my past experiences of teaching elementary school. And you know, there there is, there is a level of salesmanship, if you will, of information, you know, for students. Because if you can exude some of that confidence or some of that excitement in, you know, whether it's something you absolutely hate doing, then it definitely bubbles over and kids will some some will really buy in and you know, some will take a little bit more time, but it's it's very interesting to see your level of confidence that you bring to it um when you know presenting it to students or people, adults, whomever.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

So yeah, I I well I'm just thinking a lot about this because I've I've transitioned through lots of different roles, and I'm thinking about the number of times I've said, you know what, and I just believe in transparency. I don't have the answer right now, but let me do some learning and let me work on this with you, and and we'll find that answer together.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

That's usually my line.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

Yep. Which makes sense. You don't know everything, and that's part of leadership is connecting the dots for other people to find those resources, the areas of information. You don't have to do it yourself, but it's connection.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Yeah, and I'm big on collaboration and transparency. Those are some of my keys in leadership, and I think that they go a very long way to building trust with your team. Speaking of teams, or lack of team, or lack of team. Um, depending on uh the situation for an art educator, they might be the only in the building, but there's a lot of times where they aren't the only one in the building and they take on a new title as uh lead teacher, or sometimes, you know, I know I've had elementary teachers in our school district that they might be the only one in the building, but they're the lead teacher for a group of elementary art teachers. Um, or there's a department chair. So, like let's say you're in the fine arts department and you become the the art uh arts chair, you know, that kind of thing. There are administrative demands, just like you were talking about, like ordering supplies and uh building a budget, because that's something that happens at a school level, Yvonne. And and then there's like checking on all your people to make sure they're getting all the work done and they're they're following the guidelines and that there are safety regulations and all those things. And it's really easy to get swallowed up by the admin just demands, which is not great for an artist person, because then they get they get kind of mired down and they they they just don't have that same artistic self-worth. And I'm curious how you would recommend going about maintaining authentic connection to identity, their artistic identity as an artist, as a human being, because I think that's something we often don't talk about too, is just like self in like stepping outside and being your personal self, and then that balance, because I don't and I don't even know if balance is the right word, but the leadership balance.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Yeah, that's such a good question. And what I really picked up from that is like this sense of loneliness of when, like, I think about this. Like I told you, um, my wife now teaches math and science, but before she was uh Esteam, you know, engineering and arts in Kid Lab and was the only one at a charter school. It is very different now that she has a team of fifth grade educators and they all work together. So I think about that a lot, like especially as someone who's a freelancer. I'll come in and be the sole person. So a team of one is still a team, but it's lonely. I think that coming back to what you're saying, if you're an art teacher, you might be the only person in the entire school who has the perspective to register that like a certain decision is gonna hurt your program, or that like the isolation gets misread, and people just kind of look at you as like the specialist in the corner, even when you become in leadership, yeah, but they're still like the leadership of the specials or what have you. So I I just keep coming debt back to like the internal self-worth, and that's all about values because like your job is your job, right? You we all want to care about our jobs, but that is one fraction of who we are. Whereas for me, it used to be like 99% of who I was. So I think it practically it starts with talking about your value. And a lot of art teachers, I think they walk into these conversations and they're already translating everything into whatever they think administrators care about. And like engagement numbers, whatever buzzword, like and yeah, there is a place for that. But like if you're if that's the only language you're using, it feels like you're negotiating like on ground that was never yours to begin with. Like, what are what are we doing here? Say what you actually see happening with kids because like you're the person who's actually seeing, and that's the value you bring, and just all of that. Like when you finally sit down to advocate, you wanna be the person who's pointing at the list of things that. Like we can get done, we will get done, not just always fighting about everything. So it's knowing like what you want to stand for, looking at the job ahead of you and saying, I'm gonna do this, I'm not gonna do this, and making decisions that yes, all of our decisions are for our students, for our schools, but you got to put yourself first as well.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Yeah, yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

You know, I'm just I'm sitting here thinking about you know, leading teams, and so many times I've had folks that are like, Well, this is what I'm supposed to do. And I'm like, well, step back from that for a minute and asking questions about who is that good for? And then also, what does that look like in time for you? Is it realistic to be putting that kind of energy and you know, putting yourself into that kind of situation? And is there another pathway that might serve the same purpose but not be so challenging or take away from your soul? I mean, to be honest, and I mean, but it's true, like there have been times where I'm like, you know, yeah, let's be student first, but is there a different way? Because that what I see in front of me is something that's going to be the hardest path that is not good for you, teacher. And I need you, teacher, to be in your best place so that you can be there for the students. Because if we're student first and you are not able to be present fully as a as a terrific teacher, then what's what are we doing?

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Yep, you know. I just keep coming back to all of this as like art teachers, our doers, they're creators, and like you get to admin, it's exactly what you said. It's like, what am I doing here right now? For me, I know what my job is, but it's like, is this why I got into this? Like, what is what what's the point of all this? Because I just like everyone else have bills, want to make money, but I also want to be happy where I work. I don't have to be happy every single minute. It's a job. But when the core of who you are and what you actually like to do slowly gets stripped away, you're like, I'm the head of arts something, but I don't actually do any art. So that's you know.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Yeah. So I tell people essentially my job is to teach teachers and lift up teachers so that they can be the best art teachers for those students that they possibly can be. And that's kind of my lens. So even as my job and my responsibilities change, there are things that maybe I should hand over to somebody else. But if I do that, then it takes away part of the happiness for me. So I have to look at the trade-offs and say, you know what, is there something else I can hand over to somebody else? Because if I don't get that one week a year to teach to actually be the teacher, I am not gonna be happy. And so, how can I look at the the all the responsibilities and delegate in a way that still provides something? I always think of our friend Nick, who says, you know, she talks about the goals and the soul. And like, does that do they align? Do your goals align with your soul? And so, yeah, that's how I think about it. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

So I'm thinking pretty much about those same lines. I mean, I I also do a lot of presentations for teachers. Yes, a lot of it is student leaning, but I have them I have them doing the process as well. So that way they are one making and they can see, you know, that process and be able to take that home with them and be able to use that in their classrooms. Um, and hopefully do it at home too. But I'm also thinking about, you know, people are usually asked, like, what do you what do you see in a leader? What do you see in your supervisor? What do you, you know, how do you view them? Um, and a lot of people say, okay, I want them to have an open door, or don't want them to be, you know, transparent. And sometimes that requires you to be vulnerable as as a leader, as even as a creative, because you're making something and then you're putting it out there. Um, you know, but also having um kind of clear boundaries. And I'm just curious, like, where's the where is that line, or how do you go about it? And maybe that has something to do with the goals and aligning with your soul too. But like, how how does that uh between the you know the human authenticity and your and colleagues, but also still kind of maintaining your leadership point?

SPEAKER_00 26:44

I don't know if that's I love that. That's that's such a great question because it's a good transition to talking about, you know, we're talking about leadership here, but really we're talking about authentic leadership. What does that mean? Well, in the book, what I did was I took Dr. Bill George's five dimensions of authentic leadership. One of those is heart, and that is exactly what this is talking about. It's I want to have an open door policy. For what though? It can't be for everything. So I and I learned that the hard way. Fully admit that. I was a young manager when I got my first management job. I also was in my mid-20s where everyone else was around the same age. So I kind of took the whole thing of like, I'm a cool mom, like, yeah, this is awful. It's like, but you are you are the man in a way now. Like you have different responsibilities. So I think the confusion here is being open about your process and unloading your unprocessed feelings onto the people who report to you, because those can get really tangled. Like if you tell your team you're still figuring out how to handle a hard conversation with the parent, I mean, that's useful to them. It shows them that struggling with something doesn't mean you're failing at it. I think that's like giving a gift to them. But if instead you're telling the team how anxious you are about the meeting or like, oh, I don't know how we're gonna do this, it's I mean, I'm a parent. We all are, it's just the same thing. It's you kind of have this level of confidence where I'm not gonna tell my kids everything that's on my mind, just like I'm not gonna tell my direct reports everything that is on my mind. But I'm gonna be honest with them in a way that's gonna allow us to connect on an individual basis. That's very different. Um, I feel like if you are the one who is not um setting the tone, then it's gonna get set by someone else. And your job is to be that leader and to not lie to people, but to be honest about the situation at hand. And I've been in situations where I have said, like, I'm nervous about this upcoming presentation, but I don't just dwell on it. I'll mention reasons because I'm not sure if we'll have these numbers in, and then you make a plan. But sometimes there are leaders who tell the team too much. They just do. And sometimes it's hard because you know that when you're a teacher and you have this information that maybe you shouldn't have, you can't do anything with it. So it's just unloading onto the teachers, and it's like, so what am I supposed to do about this? Aren't you supposed to be my lead, my head of something to help me? Like, don't just tell me to write my learning objective on the board again, things like that, you know? So that yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

Oh we've heard that one before.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

I mean, I do boundaries are important, obviously. And this is with any job. People are like, you can't be friends with your boss. I don't think it's black and white like that. There is nuance to everything. I have I am friends, and I say that with different shades of meaning with every single person I've ever met on this planet. Some people are my best friends, obviously, some people are acquaintances. I'm not gonna speak to the CEO of a company I'm trying to pitch the same way I would my best friend. But there is always gonna be this same level of authenticity. And part of when you become a leader is, you know, with more power comes more responsibility. It's just the way it is. You can't operate the the way you used to operate. And a lot of that is emotional management.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

No, I was gonna say I remember writing in article in one of my leadership classes. I used that line, and I'm like, that was really cliche, but it still rings so true. It's true. It's so true.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

It is.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

Also, Spider-Man's everywhere, and I'm seeing all these commercials, so it's just stuck in my brain right now.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Well, yeah, but it's such a good one, and it's it's I mean, it frames a lot of the the things I think about for sure. You know, um, I'm thinking a lot about the world we live in in the United States right now and education's place in uh just funding and different things without going any further. I'm just gonna say that it the funding is at risk for the arts, um, it's at risk for all of education. And we've seen a lot of grants go away, we've seen a lot of um challenges. Uh, Matt and I happen to be in Texas, which is a whole can of worms. Um, and I think advocacy is a really important place uh for educators and especially arts educators to consider their voice right now. And I think that starts at a very local level, and the most impact you can make is at a local level. But I worry that arts educators feel their voice doesn't carry weight because all the things we've talked about, how they're you know, often so low in the building, that they do things differently than the the other the majority of the teachers, they're not core, they're special, all of those things. So, what are some practical steps that educators can think about to really lift their voice and their authenticity to start even at the school level to talk to their school leadership and maybe quiet their internal doubt?

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Interesting. I mean, I think this kind of touches upon what we talked about already with knowing your values. It's like it's a shift for how you talk about them. So I feel like a lot of art teachers walk into these meetings. Like I already said this already. They're they're talking about translating everything into whatever they think the administrators care about. Like, you know, the buzzwords, the numbers, but so I would say uh keep a running list, even in your notes app, of like the specific moments your program did something nothing else in the school could do. Right? It is different. It's gonna be different. You're gonna produce different things than a math or a social studies teacher. So when you finally sit down to advocate, you wanna be pointing at that list instead of arguing and pointing to how you feel in the moment. Like that's a really big thing, too. We you're hired to do something to produce results. Like we're education is all about outcomes, right? So no one really cares how you feel. I mean, I I do as a person, but in in the school system, how you feel, they might talk about that, like satisfaction, but it's that's not what this is about. You have to look at input-output. And I think that's that's the best way. And there's a big education piece to this because if whether it's art or music or whatever special, if you're like this little tiny part of the school, you're so incredibly important. But let's face it, no one's really thinking about you. They're thinking about like in Massachusetts, they're thinking about like MCAS and all these tests and all these things. And it's like, well, we can just skip our special because we need more time to do X, Y, and Z. And it's like when that's the culture of your school, how do you expect to get any respect or any advocacy when that's where you start? So I I would say you gotta start from the data. Everything's about data, right? Even art. Which sounds kind of counterintuitive, though.

SPEAKER_03 34:08

You know, no, it's actually not at all.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

I think it's a perfect way to start because I think, you know, well, in NAEA we talk a lot about data visualization, which is is easier to do in in the art ed world in some ways, because that if you're an elementary art teacher and you teach the entire school, you have this very broad, wide impact. And then you can take these photos of these amazing exhibitions of your students and see all the parents coming out. You know, I think one of the things we struggle with as art educators is feeling a little lost in the shuffle because we don't have the same performance is as a music or a dance teacher, right? So, or a theater teacher. They get these performances and the administration comes to their performance, and there's like a little bit of yay yay and all that. And I think we have to work harder to get them to come to our art exhibits, you know. But I think when one of the big things I used to do is I would take tons of photos, I would blast them on the school social media, number one, and then I would send an email if the principals didn't show up, and this often happened for our district-wide shows. We would have six to seven hundred parents come out for a district-wide event at a night, and maybe one of the 25 elementary principals would come. And I would kind of, I mean, I would just be like, hey, look glad, glad you were able, your teacher was able to participate in this event. Look at all the parent response, look at all, you know, look at all your happy students, and I would send pictures, not to kind of, but also so that they knew that we were bringing in numbers, you know, it goes back into the data. Like, I think in their mindset, they think nobody's coming out for an arts exhibit or a visual arts exhibit. And I think sometimes they they don't know, they don't know what they don't know. And so when you show them, hey, you missed out on this opportunity to be in front of this many parents, they're like, oh, whoa, I didn't know. And then you start to see a turnaround and you start to see them come and you start they start to understand and know that you are impacting, like I said, hundreds and hundreds of students, depending on the size of your campus. And a high school art teacher has 180 students. I mean, that's you know, there is a big impact. And so taking those photos, getting that data, getting the numbers, counting, you know, and getting an estimate of how many people came out for a show, how many parents are volunteering in your classroom, you know, all the donations that you're getting, uh, different things like that, trying to, you know, or and sometimes comparing, like this is not a fun one, but budget is a big thing for art educators. And a lot of art educators, the the principal's like, here's a hundred dollars, and you're like, Well, I'm supposed to teach 600 kids with a hundred dollars, and this is a consumable based on like it's all consumables, we're consuming these materials, and then you know, you start to, you know, not all districts have a system where everybody has a an allotment based on the number of students they have, so you start to survey people and say school X next to me has $500 and I only have $100, and school Z over here has $700, and you you've got to give them the comparables as well. I think that that's really important. Um, and and uh the other thing I would say about advocacy is don't ever come just to complain. Always come, yeah. Like that's one thing I I always say. Like, and I think Lori, that goes back to the feelings, right? Like we have feelings that maybe we're less than or we're put upon or things like that. And you know, sometimes unfortunately, that shines through as complaints. And you want to come through with, hey, look at what we're doing, but we could really use a little bit more help in XYZ. And here's how you can help. Here are my ideas. Yep. I think coming with the ideas and the excitement is really the key.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

A hundred percent. And you know what this really speaks to? It's just how much are the arts valued in our society, in our school, in everything. And you know how much things are valued by how much money gets put behind it. But I think about when, you know, a lot of people might think, oh, that that that's nice. They did a nice play, they put a nice art show on, that's nice. It's like it's not nice. We need to tie it to, like maybe not test scores, but what if you have this big school culture initiative on making kids feel like, you know, belonging is a big thing or whatever, anything. That is art is how you express. And I think that is thinking about what are the district priorities, the school priorities, and thinking like an admin and managing up, doesn't matter what job you have, knowing how to speak to the people who are in charge while still keeping like your soul intact, means I'm happy with my day-to-day, that is a unique balance. It takes for me at least quite a while to get there. But once you get there, it's almost like you cracked a code. Oh, okay, I understand now.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

You know, I mean, just a one last statement. I mean, just thinking about that, the number of times in which I've invited my admin to just come into my room to see what they're working on, you know, to see where those connections are happening. That's when, you know, if they're not really versed in the arts or the or any, you know, that direction, then they start to kind of see, and then they then they do kind of get that clarification, and then it makes it easier to be able to have that conversation with them later and be like, hey, uh, by the way, we are running really low on whatever, you know, is there any is there any money or anything we can use to buy to buy those extra supplies? So, Lori, as we start to wrap up our conversation, because I know we could sit here and solve all of the world's problems, um you know, we have our we have our hardest question, and this is everyone knows it's coming, but yet everyone still struggles with it. Um if you would like to leave our listeners with um anything, words of wisdom, advice, topic, further deeper dive into something or something we didn't even talk about, um, what is it you'd like to leave our listeners with as we conclude our our interview?

SPEAKER_00 40:59

I would like to say this. I found that when I express it like this, people sort of their eyes open up. It's like growing up is hard to do. Growing your in your career is also very hard to do. But there's a difference between doing things that are hard and are worth it, and then like needlessly suffering and doing things the hard way. So I want people to know that the self-doubt, it doesn't just disappear once you get here. Like it doesn't vanish with like, you know, once I hit 10 years of experience, it's gone. I'm a director, it's gone now. No, no. You're still who you are inside. It what actually happens is like it's always gonna be there. It's always there, it's who you are, but you don't let it run the show anymore. I don't want people to think I need to be a totally different person. Um, you know, I'm a leader. Who is that? You're still the same person. You're gonna pull out different pieces of yourself. You're gonna choose which parts to shine a light on and which parts maybe to dim in certain situations, but you're still yourself, right? Like I think the goal was never to get some version that has no fear. It's a human emotion. We're never gonna get rid of these emotions. You shouldn't feel you shouldn't be mean to yourself because you're feeling these things. You shouldn't panic because you're feeling these things. I mean, I've been through a lot of therapy, so a lot of this is influenced by like CBT and therapy talk, where it's like feelings are feelings. They're there. You can't push it away or it's gonna get 10 times heavier and come scream back in your ear. So with this, I've been doing, let's say, I've been doing content my entire career. I still get nervous every time I'm talking on a podcast or I'm on a webinar, like my hands are clammy. But I have to just talk to myself and say, like I talk to the little girl version of myself, honestly. I speak out loud sometimes, and I was like, that's okay. Everything's gonna be fine. You know how to do this. But it's kind of like taking how you speak to your students and applying it to yourself, too. Because deep down inside, we're all these little tiny babies who grew up to have these jobs and we're like, what am I doing here? I'm the boss, you are the boss, and you can do it.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

That is amazing advice. Yeah, and I really, really appreciate that. I feel like you are talking to me right now, so thank you very much. I'm gonna take it straight to heart.

SPEAKER_02 43:30

23 years of teaching, and I still wonder and question myself. So yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 43:36

Um, for our listeners, we always leave resources, but I know that you have a book out, and I would love you for to just tell the listeners about your book and where they can find it real quick.

SPEAKER_00 43:48

Okay, so the book is called The Imposter's Guide to Authentic Leadership How to Stop People Pleasing, Overcome Imposter Syndrome, and Lead Without Losing Yourself. Okay, so this book is for. People who got promoted for all the right reasons, and that they still lie awake wondering if someone's gonna figure out that they don't belong here. So it's like you built your career on being dependable. And you know, that's kind of the skill set that leadership doesn't reward anymore. Um it asks you to generate the standard yourself. Like you're not looking to what am I supposed to do? You're creating the programs, you're setting the standard, you're putting the bar where you need to put the bar. But if you've spent your entire life not being able to trust your own judgment, that is a huge ask. You don't even know where to begin with the rubric because you're always holding something up saying, is this right? And you can't do that anymore. So this book really is to help people stop looking for external validation and realize in their heart of hearts they can do this. You're gonna get it wrong, but these are some guidelines. I don't want people to go into these new positions, totally fish out of water with no resources. And that is what happens. You know, they might, in the corporate world, teach you how to have a one-on-one, or here's and we have all of our all-hands meetings, but they don't explain how it's going to be an identity shift for you. Your promotion, it doesn't just change your title, it changes your relationship with yourself. It's entirely different. So what I did was I took Dr. Bill George's five dimensions of authentic leadership, which are phenomenal. It helped me put a lot of language to things I'd been experiencing for years. But I felt like there was something missing. A lot of these, um, I would say just it leadership resources in general, they already assume you come from a place of confidence. So those say, do X, Y, and Z. And people like us, who have imposter syndrome or are people pleasers or whatever, maybe have high anxiety, we don't know how to do it. So I took those and I explained how he he describes it, then I interpret it through the lens of a people pleaser, and here's how I think about it. Then I tell stories and say, here's how I discovered what purpose, values, relationship, heart, and self-discipline mean. And then the most important part is each chapter ends with some leadership activity prompts so you can actually start figuring this out. Because the whole point of this is not just to read this book, put it down and say, there you go, let's go to work tomorrow. It's short, it's it's only a little bit over a hundred pages. Um, it's less than $10. And that's the whole point is I want people to just start doing something. This is a very consumable resource, and it's speaking to people in a way that I think is very honest. It's not saying, here is the one way leadership is gonna look. The whole point of this is leadership looks different for every single person, and the only one that can figure it out how it's gonna work for you is you. I told I'm telling the stories about how I figured it out, and I still have not figured everything out. You know, I'm I'm in my middle of my career, I probably still have 20-ish more years of working left. So I'll talk to you in 20 years and see where I land. But I can tell you from doing a lot of this professional learning on my own, I I'm a better leader, I'm a better person, and I feel better about myself. So I just want to help other people do the same because work is hard and everyone wants to grow in their career, but you shouldn't feel terrible while you're doing it.

unknown 47:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:24

Well, we hope you don't come back in 20 years that you come back sooner than that. So, you know.

SPEAKER_01 47:31

Well, this I hope I'm living on a mountain somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

That'd be pretty bad if I'm like, guys, I still haven't figured it out. It's been 20 years.

SPEAKER_02 47:42

Can I come back on the podcast again?

SPEAKER_01 47:45

Well, we do. We, uh Lori, you've been a wonderful guest, and we really do hope you come back a lot sooner than 20 years from then. And we just really want to thank you for being with us today.

SPEAKER_00 47:57

Thank you so much, you guys. And if anyone wants to keep in touch, I'm at the Imposter's Guide on Instagram. You can find me on LinkedIn, Lori Kirkstead. Um, my website is LoriKirkstead.com. And um, I just really appreciate this. It's been really nice to get to know you guys. And I love that I can combine my book with the education space because, like I said, I had this written sort of with corporate people in mind, but it is legitimately for every single person who has a job. So I just really grateful to be here and thank you very much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 48:34

Well, well, oh, you're starting now.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

I was just thinking that it's it's that you know, just in leadership, because I I spend my summers on leadership. Like my summers are all about leadership. We do the National Leadership Conference, we do School for Art Leaders. I I spend a lot of time thinking about leadership, and I think she's really hit on something that we don't talk about enough, and that's just like the the confidence, the creativity, the the voices that we have to quiet, you know, um, you know, feeling like you have what you need to be uh a leader, and then also thinking about like how does that fit in the world of happiness and how do we maintain our happiness? And yeah, we have a job to do, but we shouldn't have to go to work every day feeling unhappy about it. And I there's just a lot there. And uh, you know, the goal for me, one of my guiding posts is you know, thinking about goals and my soul and how they all fit together. And I I think I'm really um excited to connect more with her at some point and and just uh on a personal level talk more.

SPEAKER_02 49:41

Yeah. I mean, I had when when we had our pre-meeting, I there was just yeah, it was like fireworks kind of going off as far as yeah, Laura's gonna be all about this. I I mean I knew I knew it would be. I mean, it it she's just so easy to talk to um and so passionate about what she does that it just was just a great uh phone conversation earlier.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

So well, I'm so glad that Davis brought her to us and that you you had a chance to kind of connect beforehand and it was a really good chat. And then so thanks, Matt.

SPEAKER_02 50:16

Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah, hey, um people want to uh you know introduce us to other people or give us some more suggestions, where can they go? Or maybe even take a look at resources that she talked about.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

She did talk about resources, the resources pieces, yeah, not recess pieces, although they are my favorite. Um so back to resources.

SPEAKER_02 50:40

Resources.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

I think that uh Davis does an amazing job with us, I just have to say. So shout out to Davis, they have the podcast and all the resources that go with every podcast on their website under DavisArt.com slash free resources. Go to K12Art Chat the Podcast and check it out. And just check out all the there's a there's a link to resources right next to the podcast. If you want to listen to the podcast there, you can, but you can also listen to wherever you get your podcasts. But back to your question about if they wanted to connect with us, yeah. I'm gonna throw that one back to you.

SPEAKER_02 51:16

Oh, okay. I see now. Um I see what you did. Yeah. Um, so you know, you can find us on Instagram at creativity. You could send us an email if you wanted to, you know, have a longer more than just a uh a DM. You could uh send us an email at the creativity at gmail.com. Um we would love to hear from you on suggestions or topics or artists or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

Yeah, so thanks for reaching out. Thanks for connecting with us, thanks for listening and subscribing wherever you listen to the podcast. Make sure to rate and review, it really helps us with content and keeping the podcast going. Um, but again, as always, thanks for listening. That's the most important thing, and we really appreciate you and what you do for students every day, and we wish you a creative week ahead.