A running masterclass with Zachary Friedley and Eric Orton, Born to Adapt

Kia ora e te whānau. For our first podcast of 2024 Eugene and Matt have the pleasure of speaking with Zachary Friedley and Eric Orton. Zach is a returning Champion on DCR, having spoken to Matt on episode 202, and also being part of our Tarawera live pod in 2023.  Eric Orton is a first time caller but he will be no stranger to many of you. Together, they are coming down to New Zealand with 2 x Leadville Champ Adrian MacDonald to hold a Born to Adapt clinic and trail race in Rotorua on February 9th and 10th.  Born to Adapt was formed by Zach in 2021 to expand awareness around disabilities and foster spaces where everyone can have access to the transformative power of movement. He’s one of the only professional, above-knee blade runners  or “trail bladers”in the world. Zachary currently races as part of the On Trail Team, participating internationally in ultra and sub-ultra races including UTMB MCC, UTMB Tarawera 21k. Zach and Eric met during the creation of Born to Run 2: The Ultimate Training Guide, and have been working together since. Eric of course, best known for his is experience documented in the New York Times best selling book Born to Run and his own book of training philosophy, The Cool Impossible. Eric is the former Director of Fitness at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center and lives in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. 

Dirt Church Radio. Best Enjoyed Running.

Episode Links 

Born To Adapt New Zealand Registration

Born to Run 2: The Ultimate Training Guide 

Eric Orton - The Cool Impossible 

Run Wild For Joe Registration 

Run Wild For Joe Facebook Group 

On Running 

SCOTT Running 

Julbo Eyewear 

UltrAspire

irunfar

Dirt Church Radio on Instagram

Dirt Church Radio on Twitter 

Dirt Church Radio on Facebook 

Dirt Church Radio on Patreon

Ciele

Further Faster New Zealand

Transcript

0:09

Eugene and I would like to acknowledge the companies that, and brands that help Dirt Church Radio do what we do. We couldn't do this without the support of Scott Running, Ultra Spire. Of course, Wild Things, Currens, and Further Faster all great companies, all people who have been there through, uh, with us through Thick and Thin, and we would encourage you, if you're listening to this, to, you know, show them some love, go check them out on the World Wide Web, and we can't wait to keep going through the next year, so Eugene, Probably play the jingle now. Further, faster, there in Christchurch. Rocky is hairy and so is Badger. Jules is nice and Jack is delicious. Go further, faster, now. Oh, further, faster, there in Christchurch. Rocky is hairy and so is Badger. Jules is nice and Jack is delicious. Go further, faster, now. Dirt Church Radio. Episode 259 of Dirt Church Radio. I'm Matt Rayment. I am Eugene Bingham. Tēnā koutou katoa. We made it. Yeah, currently sitting in a very hot car at the trailhead after doing our last run of 2023, and it was hot and humid, very humid, very humid like running through thick soup. But yeah, nice way to round out the year, wasn't it? It was a bunch of us. Yeah, it was a good bunch of us. And for me, you know, in hindsight, bringing thick soup as nutrition. Not the most nice and hot though. Chicken noodle. Yeah, it was great. A bunch of people rounding out 2023, which, you know, for, has been challenging for many of us in lots of ways great run and here we are bringing you the first episode of 2024. Yeah, welcome to the new year, and a heel to tie high. Hey we, we, we've got a great episode coming up with a really cool interview. But we wanted to just give you a heads up. We heard from our mate Kate Shave about a very special event coming up next month. So, it's, It's called Run Wild for Joe, and it is happening from 10:00 AM to 4:00 PM on 3rd of February. And basically it's a trail run walk event that's being organized by the team from Worm Wellington running Meetup for three main purposes. To honor the memory of Joe Benbo. And acknowledge Joe's contribution to Wellington and Aotearoa trail running communities. To raise funds for Joe's family and the Mental Health Foundation New Zealand. And to provide an opportunity for the trail running community to connect and keep conversation going about the importance of mental well being and the things we can be doing to maintain that and support services that are out there to help with that. Last year, The Wellington trail running community, the whole trail running community of Aotearoa lost Joe and this is something that's been organized to, to, you know, as one of the events that there's been to try and, yeah, I don't know, how do you put that, to, to, well, as. As Kate said, to do those things, to honor him, to raise funds and provide an opportunity for conversation. So, registration is free. There's an option to do like an actual in person Wellington event or to do your own thing and register. It's Backed by a whole bunch of cool sponsors. There's some great links. You can read about stuff that we will put those links in the show notes, but basically have a read of those, get on board and do something. to get involved at the Run Wild for Joe event, 10 4 p. m. on the 3rd of February. Right, we should tell them about the interview that we've got coming up, Matt. Yeah, we should tell them about the interview. And I guess the thing, I'll just say one more thing about the Joe Benbo thing, and I think it speaks to the the cautiousness with what you you talked about, you know, we need to be clear on this, Joe, in a, in a, in a, in a, Moment of darkness made the decision to end his life. It's a difficult subject and it had a massive impact on people. And when you talk, you know, when people come together around this stuff and you'll see people post stuff on the internet, I'm here for you. I'm here for you. I'm doing this. You need to reach out. It's, it's, it's super well intentioned and it's super. You know, it's, it's a normal, reasonable human emotion. The thing that we can do to get together and to talk about is to get together in groups, talk about this stuff and just be really open with it. So if for nothing else, you know, even saying the words, it's very hard and it's very difficult, but even saying the words, you know, acknowledges what happened and then sort of. That process of healing for everyone and his kids and his family. And yeah, so very, very worthy and very, very necessary. And with, anything that Cate Shave touches, she does with elegance and grace and, and humility and humility and empathy. So, will be fantastic, I'm sure. But look, this week, again, sticking with worthwhile causes, Eric Orton and Zach Friedley, Zach's been on the show before episode 202, one of my favorites actually you know, professional adaptive athlete, trial runner, and Eric first time caller, but you'll know the name, Eric Orton, the coach of Born to Run fame. Together, they're coming down to Aotearoa to hold a Born to Adapt clinic and trial race the week before Tarawera, Feb 9th and 10th. Born to Adapt was formed by Zac in 2021 to expand awareness around disabilities and foster spaces where everyone can access the transformative power of movement. He's one of, as I said at the top, he's one of the only professional above knee blade runners or trial bladers in the world. Zac currently races as part of the on trial team, participating internationally in ultra and sub ultra trial races, including. UTMB MCC and the UTMB Tarawera Ultra Trial 21K, and Eric Orton, as we said at the top, best known for his experience, documented New York Times best selling book, Born to Run. He's also the co author of Born to Run 2, Ultimate Trial Running Guide, released in 2022. The former director of fitness at University of Colorado Health and Science Center, and he lives in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. Which sounds pretty neat in terms of trail. It does sound sweet, isn't it? And it was a, a beautiful conversation and you will thoroughly enjoy it. But first, we should do this. Greatest Run. Greatest run, ever. Greatest run, ever. Greatest run ever, which is the part of the show. We ask you to run into us and tell us your greatest run ever. Doesn't have to be a race or mount summit. Might just be a run around the block, something that's sung to you. Summaries, and send'em to us at Dear Church radio@gmail.com. And this is from Martin Radnich. This one has been nearly eight years in the making, he writes, but super cathartic to get to put plan to paper. I lay on the snow, screaming my lungs out. An innocuous, slow speed skiing accident had unscrewed my leg in the middle, leaving my tibia and fibula a mess of cracked bone. A helicopter ride off the mountain saw me with eight screws and a rod through the length of my tibia, Rod Stewart, as he became to be affectionately known. Previously, never much more than an on and off again recreational runner, trail running became a focal point of my recovery, a source of physical strength. Yardstick for measuring proce progress and a deep mental satisfaction of being connected to nature by the trials on which I ran. Flash forward a handful more years, and I began being haunted by a deep gnawing pain through my leg and a growing sense of unease, appointments, diagnostics. No running feelings of helplessness, more appointments, a leg which lit up like a Christmas tree and a bone scanning image. I had osteomyelitis, a bone infection growing in this space between rod and bone. My body was now turning on the hardware, which had facilitated my recovery. Crutches. Bed rest, surgery, attempt to remove the rod, failed surgery to remove the rod, three months of antibiotics, an overwhelming sense of darkness, more surgery, and rod successfully removed, minused half a screw. Years later, again, my Saturday long runs saw me following the course. Of Te Awa Kaerangi, the Hutt River from Kaitoki to where it flows into Whanganui a Tara. The miles slip by effortlessly, diffuse high clouds shielding me from the heat of the sun, an aid station in the forms of Stokes Valley Petrol Station. Sorry, Stokes Valley Bar. The rhythmic crunching of the gravel under my shoes propelling me down the valley, with an undeniable lightness of both body and spirit, and a smile on my face the whole way, legs empty and cup filling. As I turned away from the river and ran down the Petone Esplanade towards my destination, through families out enjoying the day, I was struck with an enormous wave of emotion, with tears welling up in my eyes as I was ambushed by immense and unexpected feelings of gratitude. I had experienced some incredibly dark moments across the previous years, the highs of what running contributed to my life, the incredible low lows of contemplating what a life without running could look like, and the overflow of these feelings into my general state of being. But here I was, experiencing my greatest run ever. Fitter, stronger, faster and happier than I'd ever thought I could be. What if I knew that the best was yet to come? This phrase kept repeating in my head as I ran onwards. What if I knew the best was yet to come? The parallels between what we experience as runners and in life as humans have been well explored. We face high highs, low lows and the triumphs and setbacks which we experience and one can both contribute and detract from the other. Neither is consistently easy or effortless. Each can be messy and soul destroying or joyous and fulfilling. But as these similarities And differences which attract us to the process of running. I'm not happy every day, nor has every run my greatest run ever, but through it all now I'm reminded the best is yet to come. Wow, Martin eight years in the making, but certainly super worth the wait. And what a beautiful thing for a greatest run ever to bring you to the realization that the best is yet to come. That's fantastic. We, you know, the phrase greatest run ever sort of implies that this is it, but What you're putting so beautifully is that we don't know what the best is yet. So, thank you, Martin. That was astonishing. The rest of you, keep sending them in. I need to see Greatest Rain Ever. Greatest Rain Ever at GreatestRainEver. com. No, DirtRoofRadio at Gmail. com. Send them in. Okay, on with our chat with Zac and Zac Friedly and Eric Orton. This is amazing. Two great dudes who are coming down to Aotearoa to do something amazing for, you know, We talk about how trial can be really inclusive, but, but true inclusivity is something that, that, you know, we're still making strides towards. So, listen, enjoy. Thank you for being with us through the year and yeah, enjoy this. Yeah. But anyway, look, we should actually, uh, say welcome Zach Freedly. Welcome back to do church radio and, um, Eric Orton, my goodness me. What a pleasure to. To have you on the podcast and, um, you know, you, for those who don't know born to run, born to run to the cool impossible, you, you know, you've been doing the rounds with, with Chris McDougall recently, but, um, Zach reached out the other day, really keen to talk about something cool. That's going up. So why don't we just, you know, get to the point, turn it over to Zach and say, well, what, what are you up to, bro? As we'd say. Yeah, man. So the last since we've been on the podcast last, I signed a professional contract with on, I've been running all over the world and UTMB events. We've hosted some events called born to adapt, uh, this past February. So February, 2023, I came and ran and Tarawera 21k. And before I raced in that, I, I, uh, came a week early and connected with. Some amputees in New Zealand. Uh, the Pikiwanga Limb Service. My friend Matthew Bryson is their community outreach manager. Uh, also an amputee. And him and I struck up a friendship. And he took me around to some other locations. We did a mini running clinic, but like five people in a park, but it was still pretty cool to like connect with the community there. And it got me thinking while I was there, that'd be really cool to host an event there, uh, this coming year. And, uh, right after that event, I went to Ghana with on and did a running clinic in Ghana, where it was an inclusive running clinic where it wasn't just for. Disabled athletes, but it had wheelchair athletes, had amputee athletes, but it also had like these elite athletes that could potentially be the next Olympic runners for Ghana. And we all had this group, we did this like activities and it was, it got my brain thinking about how, how could I extend this into the Born to Adapt series, which is, you know, basically trying to invite disabled trail athletes, people that aren't aren't trail athletes yet out to the trails. So me and Eric, we're discussing this. And we decided to do a Born to Adapt New Zealand in Rotorua in February, February 9th and 10th, where we're going to do a running clinic on a Friday in the, um, I think it's called the Village Green Park in Rotorua. We're going to do a running clinic there for everybody, whether you're a Western States champ. UTMB champ, or somebody in a wheelchair, or somebody on a blade, maybe you don't even have a blade, um, get everybody together, take them through some cool running drills that Eric and I have worked on, um, and then the next day have a little race in the Redwoods. And, yeah, that's the thing, it's going to be Born to Adapt New Zealand. The link goes up live today, actually, so people can register. Um, it's free, it's a sponsored event by ON. So there's no cost to this, um, but we do have limited space of, uh, a hundred people. So we're hoping to fill all those spots and just connect with the New Zealand community and share the things that, uh, all four of us love here. What do you think? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's, that's the thing, isn't it? We all love this sport and the more people who can come into it, the better. So what was the, I mean, you did that, that event last year or this year, sorry, in Rotorua. Um, what was, what was the feeling of that? What was the feedback you got from that? Was there a hunger for more? Yeah. Um, so I got a lot of outreach after, uh, Tarawera from people from New Zealand wanting to know how to get into trail running. Um, a lot of the disabled community has reached out to me and just asked me how to get involved. So that's what got me thinking that it definitely needs to happen there to maybe show How we can do it, how we've already done it here in the US and the reason why I picked New Zealand is it's already an inclusive environment and an inclusive community. Things work really well compared to like what we got going on in some of these other parts of the world. So I thought, what better than to come to New Zealand, do a really cool trail event and maybe video it, make a short documentary out of it to showcase to the rest of the world how real inclusion can, can work and have everybody. Can come and be a stakeholder and running so it all started to come together. We've been working on this. I think we had our first call about born to that New Zealand. Maybe back in March. I think Matt was on the call. Um, so we've been working on this for a while. Um, and it's just all the pieces are coming together and, um, we're just super excited to make it happen. It is exciting. It's, it's, I mean, and yeah, being on that, being on that call in February and, and, and having talked to you previously, you know, and, and you had this will to do this and this will to do this here. Um, it's amazing to see that. Yeah, you're going to be down in the village and then you're going to be in, in in the forest and how cool that will be. Eric, how, how did you get involved in this process? I, yeah, I, I met, first of all, thanks for having us on this has been, this is, I've been looking forward to this. So, uh, you know, I, I met Zach 2 years ago now, Louis Escobar, um, introduced us and we were just starting the process of writing Born to Run 2 and our whole impetus around that was to gather a bunch of. Runners that, um, might not normally be in a book or included and kind of big media and Lewis introduced us to Zach and we all conjugated in, uh, California to do a photo shoot for this born to run to book. And that's where I met Zach for the first time. And we just kind of hit it off. And, um, he started asking questions about running and. Um, you know, and part of this photo shoot kind of morphed into a quasi run clinic by me. Um, and so I was helping him with, with his running and we just kind of stayed in touch. He asked me to coach him this past year and we've just kind of hit it off as far as not only the coach athlete side of things, but also the passion to just really get more runners in this world. And, and just. You know, expose any type of person to the joys and fun of running. Yeah. So the, the, the clinic itself, um, what are the things that people can expect when they come along? What are the, what are the things that you're building into it? You know, we'll be part of this amazing event. I'm sure I got one thing that comes to mind right away. You know, the first thing that comes to mind for me is, uh, people are going to walk away with the joy of running. A lot of times you talk to people that maybe don't run. And I have some sort of like hatred connected to it, or it sucks, or we only do it for cardio. But I think, um, I want people to walk away with a joy of running and to find some sort of, uh, way to connect to it, maybe a new community that they didn't know existed. Because running to me isn't just about going out and hammering out a workout or running a marathon or even an ultra marathon. It's about this community that comes together that wants to live a healthy lifestyle, but also explore the planet in a way Uh, that I think is, you know, kind of, um, for everybody. And a lot of times, the disabled community gets left out of that. So, I think, uh, we can cross paths and get more people. Into the running community, and I, I think with what Zach's vision for this is quite unique is to include not only adaptive athletes, but able bodied athletes in 1 clinic. And that's, that's, I think, a really unique mindset to have. And from my perspective, what we're going to really talk about. How running is a craft and a skill, and that sometimes when someone's first starting to learn to run or even just think about running, they think of it from a fitness perspective or a performance perspective, and they lose out on that craft and skill that is the foundation that can lead to any other type of running that you want to do. So we're, we're really going to kind of tap into our relationship with the ground and how we can use it to our advantage to really, really create a lifelong, um, skill of running. That's, that's the thing, isn't it? Is that, that ability to be able to, um, yeah, see it as, as more than just like you said, Zach, some people see it as a punishment. Some people will see it, you know, and it's been used as punishments. And, and, uh, you know, in school environments and so on, hasn't it? It's like, you know, you guys have been messing up, go run around the field. Um, whereas what we want to do is share this, yeah, share this love of the sport and this build a skill it's yeah. It's it is. And it is, isn't it? It's a skill set. Well, I think if we look at golfers or tennis players or swimmers, they, they, they learn how first. And 100 percent of the time that we run is, is on with both of our feet and you go to a marathon and you see runners look 25 different ways, but that doesn't exist in any other sport or activity or skill, but running is never viewed that way. Um, so it just, again, leads, if we can learn how to run well, and it's simple, um, the, the joy is going to just return to us tenfold for as however we want to use running in our life. What, how, what's the, what's the challenge of. Being able to build a clinic and being able to teach people to run, like saying the 25 different ways that they, that they are, that the, the, the different abilities that they have, um, mentally, physically, um, their, their attitude to running, how, how difficult is it to come up with something that's going to fit all. Yeah. I mean, I, I think that's where our clinics are unique in that. I think many coaches and many, many athletes focus so much on learning how when they don't realize it's the practice of it that is the most powerful part. So for example, all of my techniques are based on having people feel what good is. To experience what good is rather than looking at a video or watching someone else run, we're going to put them in an environment where they can feel what proper and what good is, and then mimic that through time. And then to see it almost like a martial art, where it's something that we improve for the rest of our life. And I think that's where people stumble as they they're looking to learn how, but really they're looking for that muscle memory. That's required and they keep trying to learn more and that's where they get frustrated. And so we're, we're going to kind of tackle that. How do, how do you learn muscle memory? So good form, good strength lasts for as long as you need it to last. It's interesting, isn't it? Like you, you talk about that process and I just think about when people are starting out running, it's often about. You know, seeking that, uh, it's either pace or it's, it's, it's, it's, it's seeking to expand that cardiac kind of, uh, ability. But the strength part of it is so vitally important. What, you know, key takeaways for a beginner runner, I guess, or any, or anyone wanting to, to look at it. What are the sort of more effective or intuitive ways that you can. Enhance your strength around, you know, good running form or running form that is efficient. Yeah, from my perspective, it starts with the feet. And our relationship with the ground again, you know, 50 or a hundred percent of the things we do running is with our feet, but no one trains the feet. You know, I likened it to a rock climber. If, if a rock climber, aside from them climbing, what, what do they train? They train their fingers because they're their lifelines, right? How we train our fingers affects how we use our forearms and that's their lifeline. And if we start to see our feet as our lifeline, As runners, we might have a little different perspective on how we train our feet, how we train for strength. And to answer your question, a lot of the most important and potent strength training we can do is while we're out running. Um, jump training, training, our eccentric, our landing, you know, the, the, the yielding or the landing of that takes place while we run is the most important because that, that really allows us to absorb that force that goes into the ground before we take off. And so much strength training is focused on just the opposite of, of the takeoff. And so again, these are drills that we're going to do at the clinic and drills that anybody can do while you're out running that, from my perspective, is the most potent and the most functional for running because it's, it's that myth, isn't it? All you need to run is what technically, yes, or you need to run as a pair of running shoes and, uh, clothing or not, as the case may be with some of your increased vehicles mates. Um, but the. It's so much more than that, isn't it? You, you have to add in an, especially in the sort of modern world and you think about ultra trail and races and all that sort of thing, you add in all these external things that if you're not a pro athlete, frankly, you know, we all know as runner or I know as a runner, the first thing that goes out the window for me is that, that. If I have the choice between doing a strength workout and going for a run, I'm going to choose to go for a run every, every single time. Um, it's really great to hear that that's actually something that you can, you can do within the, the art of the, the sport that you love at the same time. Yeah. And I, I hear it all the time, you know, the runners that think they don't need strength training are the ones that need it the most because they don't think they're competitive or they don't fall into that elite category, but they're the ones that need it the most. And they're probably maybe the ones that have not a lot of time either. So, like you said, you know, they don't have time to go to the gym. But my point is that probably the stuff that's being done in the gym isn't so beneficial. It's, it's what we're, it's, it's not that we can do it outside to save time, but what we can do outside is most beneficial to begin with. So the. What can you give us an example of what that means in practical terms? Um, and the things that you're looking at and yeah, so a couple of simple things, you know, I mentioned how, um, run form is easy. It's the muscle memory that we often don't think to focus on. So just to learn simple run form for all your listeners, just stand up, take your shoes and socks off and run in place. And if I've done I've done camps here in Jackson for 20 years and I give them that, that instruction and I have, everybody's in a circle and they're running in place with no shoes or socks on. And they all look identical and I didn't have to coach them. All I said was run in place. Everybody strikes the ground the same way. And everybody feels the same versus, again, the example of going to a marathon or a race and seeing everybody run every which way. So just simply running in place is going to allow you to understand how to strike the ground. Okay. Jump, jumping up and down, stand up on top of a chair and jump off. No one's going to heel strike. I don't have to tell you that's going to hurt, but most people kind of revert to heel striking. Okay. So that that's one, just to understand your relationship with the ground as we run. But then some simple drills is again, a lot of jump training where you're maybe balancing on one leg and just jumping forward onto the same leg. and pausing and jumping forward again, maybe five or six times jumping and landing on the same leg. Because again, now we're training that landing a pause and then a takeoff to all control our muscles. And that's what most people are missing. And that eccentric, that landing training, that jump training is all aimed to help us control our movement and control, control our strength, which for the most part is what's missing in a lot of athletes. And real quickly, from a real world standpoint, learning to run downhill as a workout is very, very, very good strength. We often hear downhill running is bad for our knees. Well, it's bad for our knees if we do it wrong, but if we can run downhill for a very short period of time, you know, what happens when you don't run trails for a long time and you go out, you get sore, right? Because you're not used to it. Okay. Same thing. Downhill training. Can be wonderful strength training. Zach, what is this, the message and the, the ideas that, that Eric has talked about, what does that mean? How, how does, how does that apply for you and for adaptive athletes who, you know, you run with a blade, so you, you're having to adjust to some of those things that Eric is talking about and how are you able to spread that message that. You know, there are, there are, there are applications, uh, for adaptive athletes too. Yeah. So with me, Eric and I have been working over a year now and I've been able to finish some of the hardest trail races on the planet and been the first above the amputee in many of these races to ever finish. Um, and it's just given me more power with my body, more understanding of my body, more efficiency with my body. Less times between runs to recover. Me and my wife just talked about this the other day. I used to be down for like days after a long training session where I couldn't hardly move. But I can recover quicker. Um, I can just use more of my body. I have a better understanding of my body. And I think as a person with a blade, a lot of times coaches won't go into the aspect of your body. They're just trying to get you to do volume or Um, just move your body and not adjust different things of your body because maybe running with a blade is perceived as like super challenging, which it is. So we better not tweak anything. But the small tweaks that Eric and I have done have changed it completely for me. Um, just even with like UTMB, my first time at MCC, I missed a cutoff by like half an hour. Um, the same cutoff a year later. in a rainstorm with six inches of mud and wind, I was an hour under. And that's just from the training that we've done, you know, I'm the same, same body, same blade, same stuff. The only difference is the way that, uh, we utilize my running cadence and my foot strikes and my awareness. So it, it'll change. Everything for a person, uh, that has a blade. So is that, so the, I'm conscious that we talked about inclusivity and part of, part of what, um, the way that we talk about running as we talk about foot strike, we talk about, um, you know, the way that, that, that, you know, we land and, and, and, um, he'll strike and so on. How does that. What's trying to get to, how does that impact on. The adaptive community, the people who want to get out there and run trails and how can we, um, adjust our language or, or do we need to, um, to make sure that we are, when we talk about these concepts, when we talk about these things, we're including people who do run, you know, who, who are amputees or, or are running, you know, without, um, some of the tools that we have. Yeah, I think for me, a lot of the amputee and disabled community has this. Immense amount of pressure to be this hero or they have to run a marathon or they have to be this like freak athlete when in reality, uh, it's, they don't have to do that at all. They can run in their backyard. They can run in their. Wednesday group run. Um, so I think letting people know that out front is the most important thing, because then you'll get more participation, but then knowing that it may take somebody a little bit longer to run a mile, you know, like I tell people all the time, my first 5k took me almost an hour, you know? Um, and if I would have had this like goal of somebody would have been like, well, you're not a runner unless you run a 25 minute 5k, I may have never ran again. But I think throwing those goals out the window and just making the goal about moving your body and making these adjustments to fit your body is going to get more people to stick with running. Does that answer the question? Yeah, it does. And it's interesting, isn't it? You look at, I don't know if you've ever seen the page, your boy, Scott Jurek, and it talks about there's, there's one, you know, how comedy informs basically our life and it's. Probably the most in one of the most accurate representations of trail running. And there's that one that says, yeah, bro, trail running's so diverse. And there's that photo at, at the Trailhead. Everyone's got a uba, everyone's a dude in a Cali cat. You know? Yeah. I think it's that thing. It it, it's that thing, isn't it? Like there is that, um, that that pressure, if you are in some way an other, and I'm perfectly aware that, you know, Eugene and I two, middle class, middle age white dudes, um, but what has it been like for. You think that not only, you know, if you have an adaption or, uh, you know, a disability, what's it been like? What's the feedback been from quote unquote able bodied people who've come to, um, to the clinics and engage with people who have different levels of ability, different levels of, you know, um, of movement. What have you. Been struck by the fact that that's been, have you had any feedback around that? Yeah, I've got a lot of people that have come to born to adopt, uh, that happens at born to run, it's happened two years now. And a lot of people just didn't know that people with disabilities could even come to a place like a ranch and do an activity, whether they're in a wheelchair or they have cerebral palsy. Like people just see what they see. They have blinders on, you know, they're just really comfortable with. What they see every day and it's not, it's not nothing to do with them has a lot to do with like what the media feeds people. Um, what, what they see on TV or on Instagram or advertisements and a lot of times they see those same people that you just described that are white dudes driving Subarus running trails. You know, they don't show a guy in a wheelchair moving around, uh, off road or they don't show a guy with a blade or a girl with a blade. You know, so it's just basically kind of the media's fault, in my opinion, um, feeding what we think is the typical runner. And I think that's where I get to come in and do the stuff that I've done with ON, is kind of break that mold and change that perception. So it's all about perception, you know, um, and a lot of times our environment shapes our perception. And I think things like this and includes, that's why it's important to get Everybody together, you know, like if this running clinic has somebody that could be a world champion runner with somebody in a wheelchair and somebody with a blade that's never been on a trail, it gets them in a setting that they may have never been in and then changes perception. And then you get a lot of perceptions changed around the world. You can change the paradigm of. Of life for people everywhere. It's, it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting, isn't it? There's that, that sense of what, um, and when you look at when, you know, we've just been, uh, Eugene, I've been lucky enough to, we traveled to Australia and we got to work at an ultra marathon doing commentary. And one of the best things about doing commentary at an ultra marathon is that you have. 2,750 people across these four races, and you have 2,750 different body types. You have 2,750 different experiences. You have 2052, you know, however many different, um, human beings. And, and there is a lot more, there is a lot more diversity. Then, um, what is perhaps portrayed? Sure. Obviously, you know, um, the longer distances that you go, there are primarily, you know, it's primarily, uh, Men, but certainly at, you know, thinking about, you know, 50 K up to 50 K, 100 K, there is so much more. It's sort of starting to, uh, appear that it is becoming a more diverse space, which, which can only be, um, a good thing, right? Yeah, I think the more we have conversations like this, the more events that we're hosting happened. I think you'll start to see it be more and more, uh, diverse. I mean, I personally, from my world experience, I feel like there's a lot of work that needs to be done. Um, but I mean, that's what we're doing, you know? I mean, you got to start somewhere and we started here in the U S and I really am excited to get it international. And hopefully this will just be the first of many events like this around the world that catch on and five years from now, we'll see people with disabilities all over the place running. Um, what is the, the, do you feel, you know, Matt mentioned the race in Australia and we caught up with, uh, my Troy sacks over there. Yeah. You might Troy Zach and you know, he smashed out another race, um, found that, you know, he, he, you know, he's astonishing athlete and the Australian sports hall of fame. Um, but I kind of wondered as, as Troy walked away and, you know, we'd called him across the line and, and then I think of. Oh, what's the pressure that comes on someone like Troy and someone like yourself who are out there at the moment pushing the boundaries and hopefully one day. It won't be unusual to see people, adaptive athletes or people with disabilities and races. But right now, you know, you're at the, you know, you're on the beach head. Does that come with a pressure? Um, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't. Um, first off, Troy, I, I first heard of Troy because of you guys last year when we were on this podcast. And then me and Troy met at Tarawera. And then he actually came to Chamonix a couple of weeks early and stayed with me. In my apartment that I rented, uh, so we got to spend a significant amount of time together and me and that guy. We're a ruckus. Let me tell you, when we were on the trail in Chaminade, you got a guy that's like six foot five with a blade and there's me and there's me running around, we had people breaking their necks all over the place on the trails, looking at us, you know, cause they'd see him come by and then they'd see me come by and the look was just like, what in the hell is going on? Um, so it was really cool to spend time with him. It was the first time in my life that I got to spend time with somebody with a blade on a trail. multiple days in a row. So we were just having the blast, you know, but I think for me, pressure wise, I don't have any pressure. I know Troy doesn't really have any pressure, but I think there's a lot of pressure that's given to people with disabilities because we've glorified a lot of these stories in social media where these are Paralympians, you know? Um, so imagine walking down the road. And because you're wearing a pair of shoes, somebody looks at you and says, Hey, Ever heard of the Boston marathon? You should go try to win that. Or, or, Hey, you ever heard of the Olympics? You should try to go do that. Like that's literally the life of anybody in a wheelchair, anybody with a blade. So like, that's the like mandatory, like thing that is like, Hey, you got a blade. You should go be a Paralympian. That's insane. You know, if you think about it just because they have this thing. So there is a lot of pressure put on that community. To go be this insane superstar just because of a, they're in a wheelchair because, you know, they have a blade. So I think just kind of breaking that stigma that, Hey, go join your Wednesday run group. You don't have to race a race in your entire life, but you can be a runner. You know, you don't have to do a half marathon or a 5k. Just go hang out with your group on a Wednesday or a Tuesday and, and go run and have a beer or a coffee or whatever, kombucha. And that's what I'm trying to break and trying to get through to people is there doesn't need to be this like pressure to perform. It can just be a community activity. Um, but you know, me and Troy do like to be out there. You know, being the first at these events. Troy was the first below knee finisher at OCC. Um, he guys a machine, you know, and we were there for each other. It was really cool. He was there for me. Troy actually popped out of the bushes on my course, uh, my race. I had like 10 K left and. Troy jumped out of the bushes and was like, come on, man. Like it was pretty cool. And I did the same for him and ran him into an aid station in, in Argentina. And, um, it was cool to, to see that, you know, that we're two guys at the top of our sport, you know, but it doesn't have to be that. Like, I want to see people come to a run group. And just connect, it's all about connection. And that's, I remember talking to a friend who's in a wheelchair as well and in terms of media reflection and she was kind of rolling her eyes about this amount of stories she sees about people with disabilities who are. Quote, unquote, an inspiration. And it's like, I don't have to be an inspiration. I just want to be me. You know, like I don't, it's not my job to inspire you or to, um, you know, to be your kind of hero story or something. I just want to just be me. And that's kind of, you know, that's, that's what you, that reflects what you were saying, Zach. Yeah. I think the inspiration, so everybody. Everybody in the disabled community has their own unique experience. Some people get really bummed out because they're just living their life, going to the grocery store and someone comes up to them and says, Oh, I'm so inspired by you. It's like shopping. You know, I'm just like living a normal life. Um, and for me, I'm not going to be the inspiration police. And trusting everybody on why it's inspiring. But I do ask people, you know, to think about what makes it like, what makes it inspiring, you know, somebody just living their life. Um, and we could have that talk all day long, but that's just what I say to people is figure out what's inspiring about it, you know, and like kind of unpack that for yourself. Rather than tell somebody, Hey, you're moving around in a shopping center. You're so inspiring. Like, why is that inspiring? You know? Yeah. It's like with most of these things that, um, you know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Right. It's, it's, it's, it's not about the, it probably says more about the person who was inspired than the person who's doing the inspiring. Eric, I want to pivot to you and talk about inspiring and think about pressure. I mean, how has it been? You know, you started coaching a dude. a while ago, um, who was pretty broken down, pretty beaten up. And, and that, I mean, that was Chris McDougal, right? And now you've, you know, you've written a bunch of books. You've been the part of, of, of what has been a real mass movement and, and. It's not a paradigm shift, a real awakening in the sport over the last sort of 15 years. What's that process been like? Oh, wow. I mean, one, it's been life changing or I guess maybe not life changing, but it certainly took it, took a turn for a really good, good path. Um, and to be, you know, kind of on the world stage as far as. Um, you know, helping runners, I think, you know, what's missed and born to run was in the people I hear from is that it gave people hope, hope that you can run without injuries, hope that running is good for us. Hey, Oh, there's this ultra marathon distance. What's that all about? So it gave hope to a lot of people in a lot of different ways that I, again, I think was lost in at least the initial kind of message of the born or the barefoot part of it. To me, you know, the barefoot part is very, very small. I mean, you get to, I think a hundred, page 106 before barefoot's even mentioned in the book. Um, you know, so I think for me, it's been more about that hope that Chris and I joke, and when I speak, I tell people how many would, you know, line up for a race knowing that you're going to come in last. And not too many people raised their hand, but Chris knew he was going to come in last and he inspired millions of people. And so kind of maybe piggybacks off the inspirational talk we were just having is that you can come in last and still inspire somebody. And to me, that's ultimately what Born to Run was all about. Yeah, it's, it's interesting, isn't it? There's that, that, that notion of the, that notion of the last place finisher and, and again, you know, just very fresh now minds having, having that, um, having that experience of being with that last place finisher, um, It's a, it's an emotional, it's an emotional rollercoaster. Hey, it's, it's, it's right through that continuum of, of effort and engagement and, and I guess not talent, but ability you, you're sitting with someone who the, the effort is no less worthy. What I think, um, us as humans, it's, it's human nature to want to know what's going to happen before you do something. And that's really what kind of handicaps so many people. Um, and I think if we can look beyond of what's going to happen and just see the joy in something that we want to do, that really kind of takes care of whether it's the pressure or the fear of failure, whatever it is, um, that I think can really break down all these barriers that we're talking about. And I'll just tell you a quick story about Zach. Um, he was. He spent most of the summer in Chamonix, France training, and I got a message from him saying, Oh, dude, I. I just had this amazing trail, trail run, training run, where we looked at part of the course and proceeded to tell me that there was this whole section. I forget how long it was, but he had to crawl along this trail. And I'm thinking in my mind, why did he have to crawl? And I said, Zach, why did you have to crawl? And he goes, well, the exposure on the other side of the cliff or on the cliff side was so steep and so extreme that I didn't want my blade to buck me off the mountain. Wow. And I'm like, I would never, ever thought, even consider that that would be a possibility. And that would, that really just come through me way, I was like, wow, there's so many things that we don't understand that other people are going through. And that I think is what really is the powerful part about what Zach's doing. Zach, do you remember that? I mean, obviously you, um, hopefully you remember that run. Cause that sounds amazing. Yeah, it's, it's actually one of the famous sections of OCC and MCC. Uh, there's, there's like metal cables in the side of the wall and it's just like round thing that you circumnavigate up to this hut. It's sketchy. I mean, I, when I got there, I stopped and I was like, holy shit. Like. This is part of the course and then the people that I brought with me weren't even running the race They were like, bro this can't be a part of the race and i'm like dude it it says it's part of the race and they were just like stunned and That's why we were there to like wreck you so that didn't happen to me on race day so I could just Power through and I know what I was getting myself into. Um, but sometimes I mean for me running i'll do anything I mean if I gotta crawl Whatever, you know, like it's part of it. Um, and of course I don't want to fall off the cliff. Uh, sometimes I got to be, you know, safe and crawl. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm with you on that. I don't want to fall off a cliff either. In fact, I have been known to go on hands and knees across the ridgeline. Uh, in fact, Matt has, Matt has witnessed me going hands and knees across a sketchy Single log bridge, just because I was, you know, a bit scared of falling in and wasn't too confident about my balance. So yeah, I'm, I'm with you on that, Zach. We don't want to fall off cliffs or off ridgelines. And I had to do it in weather, which is another thing it was, it was, it was raining and like visibility was not great. Um, and then on race day though, I had the same race day. Weather was snow, wind, rain, mud. So it was good to have that in a training run. Yeah. Experience, you know, any kind of weather. You've been there. Yeah. It's not indoors. Eric, you've also spent, you know, obviously decades studying ancestral cultures and studying the ways that, that running has been part of people's cultural history. Now, how, uh, it's a huge question, isn't it? But how does, how does that work inform what you do today and how, how, you know, and is that a two way, um, exchange? I think the aha moment around that was realizing after seeing hundreds of hundreds of athletes, um, that our bodies are all meant to work the same way. And once you start to understand really what that truly means, then you can understand what any athlete needs, whether they're injured or not. We all need to move and we all move the same way. We all need to use our feet to fire our glutes. We all need to fire our glutes. We take stress off our hip flexors. So regardless of what you may think is unique to you, we all move the same way. And therefore you can start to put systems in place that can help, you know, millions, millions of people. Um, and so that, that to me was kind of that aha moment. And then once you have this umbrella understanding of how the body works, regardless of who it is, then it becomes simple. It doesn't have to be, you know, a one size for everybody. Then you, you start to work with this, the human population and, and then you can train anybody the same way because we all work and operate and move the same way. And people have a hard time with that. They, they want to be unique, right? You know, Zach's perfect example is like, I joke with them all the time. So his, his blade leg is his right leg. And his other leg is his left leg. And I always call his bad leg, his left leg, because he is an engineered really, really good, right? Like it's nice and springy and nice and elastic energy. All that we want as runners. Um, so we have to work on his left leg. Um, so, and that, those are some of the tweaks that we made initially that, you know, what he explained earlier of why it transformed his running because regardless of he has a blade leg or not, that left leg needs to operate a certain way and that's all we put in place. It had nothing to do with him being an adaptive athlete. It had to be him as an athlete, like we all can be. And, and training the body to move a certain way. I just hark back to that thing and I was reflecting on what you're saying around the fact that we all kind of, and tying up threads of this conversation. And I was thinking when you were, when you were talking there, it sounds like harking back to that thing that running should be. You know, and you were talking about drills and doing drills while you're running and, and, and my automatic assumption was even with that, like, I don't have time for that. My God, I got to run, you know, I've got an hour and 10 minutes on my program or whatever it is. Um, how do you emphasize, do you find that people come to your clinics or there's, there's kind of, because I guess the other, the flip side of this, You know, you're saying here's this naturalistic movement. It's something that we, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's within us. It's accessible to all. Do you find that people sometimes have a fear that there's that like anything else can be a bit, uh, autodidactic, right? It can be a bit like you, if you don't do it this way, or if you, do you know what I mean? It can be like a pressure rather than something that frees you up. How, how do you navigate that with people? Yeah, I think that's, that's part of the art of coaching. You know, you know, from my personal coaching business side of things, you know, I think I'm really good at understanding the psyche of each individual within my coaching business. But then when I start to see, um, athletes in clinics, um, and this will be a boring answer to your question, but you, you can't tell them anything. You've got to let them feel it. You've gotta let them feel it in their own way. And many people learn differently. And so you have to have enough, um, quivers in or enough tools in the quiver to throw at these people. So all the different types of people learning, um, practice is taken care of by what you have them do. So you're convincing them based on what they're doing, not what you're telling them. And I think that's a huge distinction of they athletes need to feel things. You know, I, I used to coach swimmers and a good swimmer can feel a bad stroke, right? And they just learn to adjust that feeling rather than have to get out of the pool and wonder what it looks like. And so I want runners to start to see and feel what good is so they can adjust while they're out there. And then it becomes that lifelong adjustment without it being a stressful thing. And what tends to happen initially is that there is a lot of thinking while you're going out, but through time you start to feel things. And then it becomes subconscious because you just feel good and bad and adjust. And you, sometimes you don't even realize you're adjusting it. That was not a boring answer. I'll answer to going back to the fun, um, comment. I think it's important to realize that just like everybody learns differently. Everybody's fun factor is different. I love running up 3, 000 feet of climbing is as hard as I can. That's fun for me. That's not fun for everybody. It might be fun for you guys, but fun might be just running around the block. So I think in breaking down the barriers in this conversation, don't place what you think is fun on other people, because their fun might be completely different than your fun. Zach, what's your fun? I like a lot. I don't like, I don't have to come back down from those 3, 000 foot coming down. Exactly. His fear is the downhill. I can go up all day long. Coming down is another story. But what Eric was just talking about the other day, we did this strength workout in a training session where I was doing one leg hops on a decline on a descent and doing it on my like, you know, toes or whatever, not my heel wasn't touching the ground. And I did those down and then I right after that had to do 30 second. Uh, downhill repeats, and on the first one, I felt my body engage in a way that it has never done on a downhill, and it was from those hops, and I felt the energy like flowing through my left leg in a way that didn't get bound up in my knee. Um, and it only happened on one rep, but I still was like, oh. That's what this is gonna feel like so it just kind of makes that feeling connection And it's really kind of cool when that when that happens. Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, how cool is that when you are running and Like you say Eric, you're not you're not necessarily thinking about it but but it's just like you you're in this moment was like this feels good and It's such a great feeling isn't it? Zach? Oh, it's like you're geeking out. It's like Trying to like win a level on a video game that you've been trying for so long and you finally had that breakthrough which I don't know anybody plays video games, but I used to have me a lot, you know But it's happening for me out in the woods In my own in my own skin So those are the moments that I really look forward to that's what makes it fun for me is it is challenging it is difficult But it's cool to have those little bitty victories that pop up and the most random workouts, you know Yeah. Wonderful. Eric, have you been down under before? Have you been to New Zealand before? I have not. I was meant to go I don't like eight years ago, maybe, and it fell through. So I'm really looking forward to, to this. Um, yeah, I, yeah, it's, I'm really, really super excited and grateful for Zach to want me to tag along and for on, for putting together such a cool, um, sponsorship path for Zach. I think that's very special. Um, that is allowing him not to have that pressure that you talked about earlier. Yeah. And Zach, of course, you're coming back here. What are you looking forward to? Man, I love New Zealand. Um, I'm looking forward to connecting with the community again. Um, and doing, you know, this running event and just getting to know new people. Um, of course, racing car aware is really cool, but I think for me, it's just getting new people into running that maybe wouldn't have got into running otherwise. It's about community building to work. We're going to provide some food. We're going to have a DJ. We're going to have fun. It's about fun. You know, hopefully people's fun is listening to some music and running around. Um, and it's free. So hopefully, uh, I'll give you guys the link for people to check out, um, sign up. It's February 9th and 10th. in Rotorua. And if you need some help getting there, I'm trying to get some funds from on to help some adaptive athletes and maybe, you know, hotel or something. Um, so we're going to try to make it really accessible for everyone. That's why it's free. It's so good. It's so good. And, you know, getting into, like you said, you, you'll be there, you both be there for the week and then there's, you know, you'd be around for Tata Weta, which is awesome as well. Um, I mean, thank you. You have one more thing. Oh, go on. Yeah. Yeah, there's more. So I'm bringing a legend with me on my own trail team. Uh, two time Leadville champion, Adrian McDonald is going to be there as well. So he'll be at the running clinic and the race. Um, so if you want to meet a Leadville 100 champ, I think Adrian's got maybe the third fastest time at Leadville in the history of it. Which is a very, you know, famous race in the United States. Um, if you want to meet Adrian and pick his brain, come to the event. Oh, that's amazing. We'll certainly, we'll certainly share the link and, and, you know, it'll be, uh, hopefully if we're around at the same time in, in Rotorua, it'd be great to see you again, Zach, and it'll be lovely to, uh, to meet you in person, Eric. I, we have had Zach on the show before. Um, so I'm going to. I've already asked you this question, but Eric, one of the things that we do on Dirt Church Radio is we ask everyone who comes on as the, as the final question, what's been your greatest run ever? Oh, man. Um, I like to tell people it's always the one that sneaks up on you and you didn't anticipate. Um, and to me, I think it has to be, I'm going to cheat. I'm going to say I live in the Teton. And so. Right outside my door every day is special and I love going to the grand Canyon, but to answer your question, I'm going to say Ometepe Island in Nicaragua, where there's two cone volcanoes. One's dormant and one's active and you, so one's dry and one's really wet, and then they have holler monkeys in the trees. And so you're running up and down these volcanoes with the monkeys. And so it was just something that I had no preconceived notion of what it was going to be. That always sticks out in my mind is one of those greatest runs. Wow. I think that's our first greatest run ever from the Nicaragua and possibly our first greatest run ever involving monkeys. Isn't it, Matt? Hello monkeys. Fantastic. Well look, thank you both so much for coming on. You know, um, I wish you a Merry Christmas and, um, safe travels down under. And we'll see you real soon, hopefully. See you in Rotorua. Yeah, thanks so much, guys. Yeah, thanks, guys. That is going to be super cool, that clinic. Um, we should try and, I mean, even though there would be three weekends in a row, we should try and wangle it. We should, we should definitely do the day trip, and we'd encourage you all to come down too. Check it out, check it out. But look, thank you, what a Wonderful year it's been and thank you to you very much for tuning in and supporting us. We're on social media at dirtchurchradio. You can email us at dirtchurchradio at gmail. com. You can find us on all the podcast platforms, like and follow if you fancy, and you can download direct from the website, which is dirtchurchradio. com. Don't forget to write in with your greatest whanewa. We'd love to hear from you and people love. Hearing them as well. Heaps of feedback about it. They're on the website, which is dirtchurchradio. com. Have a look, think of your own one, send it in to us, dirtchurchradioatgmi. com. And thanks to our sponsors, Scott Running for the Faster Currency Alley. Thank you to our Patreon Patrons and Wild Things. Stay tuned for our show in two weeks when we have another great guest lined up as a horse in the car park. Hei kōnei, hei kōna. Thanks Rigby.