Light + Life Podcast
Welcome to the Light + Life Podcast, conversations on faith and life from First Pres Colorado Springs. Join us every other week for a 30-minute conversation about living the Christian life in our times.
Light + Life Podcast
Stop Treating Science and Faith Like They’re Enemies
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If science questions have left you confused, torn, or unsure what to do with faith, this conversation is for you. This is for people who want a more honest way to think about science, belief, doubt, and what it means to keep moving toward God.
In this episode we cover:
How worldview shapes the way you think about science and meaning
Why medicine, discovery, and faith do not have to be enemies
A practical mindset for staying curious when your perspective is getting rebuilt
Hi, I'm Hannah Castle. Um, I'm here with Tim today.
SPEAKER_01Hi Hannah.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and I'm just so excited to be asking you more questions. Uh, these ones are usually the ones that I don't like bringing up at the table, the dinner table.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, but if you have questions about how to hold science and faith in the same hand, then I would recommend sitting down, getting comfortable, listening, because that's where we're gonna be going today.
SPEAKER_03Nice. Nice. Yeah, welcome back to the Light and Life Podcast. We've got Hannah, Hannah filling in for Liza here today, and uh thanks for doing it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's awesome.
SPEAKER_00Of course.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's such a honor to get to hear your thoughts. And also thanks for being a safe place for me and um whoever's listening to just comfortably ask. That's rare. So I love that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well I love questions. I mean, uh, there's nothing more exciting than than questions. I mean, um, people asking uh it and maybe I have the answer, maybe I don't have the answer, maybe it's just um but it's fun to to grow through uh asking these questions. These the questions are the things that feed our growth. So so okay, so I'll ask you a question.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Hit me with it.
SPEAKER_03What was the first time? So you I just asked you earlier today about your faith and how you came to faith, and you you said that you knew Jesus like right out of the bat. Like you can't remember a time when you were living in a world where there was no Jesus, no God, no word of God, no Holy Spirit. It's all been there all the time.
SPEAKER_00That feels like it, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's awesome. I love that.
SPEAKER_00Very, very rare and unrelatable, but here I am.
SPEAKER_03So it's such, but that's what it's kind of what every parent is praying for. Yeah. Don't you know? Like every parent in the church, like that's what we're pre- that's what I'm praying for for my kids. So they just never know a time when the sun of God's grace wasn't shining on them in the morning. And um uh for me, I had more of a uh Christian upbringing in a a Christian church, but they didn't introduce a personal relationship to Jesus in that church. And so both my mom and I met Jesus later. I met Jesus through young life as a uh 12-year-old, and uh and my dad met Jesus uh later. My parents were divorced. Um, so long story and all that.
SPEAKER_01But mine too.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but yay. Yay, um maybe. Yeah, right. Tough stuff. But um, but to when was the first time knowing Jesus all the time, knowing that God's up there and in charge, when was the first time that you thought, oh, there might be some kind of like a th a problem here? Um science might not get along with what I believe about God or what I'm being taught.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I went to a Christian school, and I remember them taking us to the Denver Nature and Science Museum, and they had, I don't know, hired, or maybe this man had volunteered to take us through, and he had some like big thoughts about dinosaurs and yada yada yada and fossils and where the Grand Canyon came from and the space and aliens. And he had this question where he'd be like, if someone ever asks you how old is the earth, you need to ask them, What do you think?
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00And then I went home from this field trip, and my mom was like, Hey, Hannah, ask me like a question, how's your day? And I was like, the answer is what do you think?
SPEAKER_02Well, what do you think?
SPEAKER_00Who told you that? And make them question their sources. And that was the first time my mom was like, How's the field trip? Blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I I'm confused. When yeah, all this guy did was tell me these questions I'm gonna be faced with, but didn't actually I I couldn't read the plaque at that time that said the earth was scientists, let's believe.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00I think that was probably my first time. But then the another time that comes to mind is I had a friend who was um she was a super believer in what she believes. Like not just faith, but like also politics, science, facts, all of that jazz. And one day she was saying these things, and I was just sitting listening to her, and I was like, I didn't get that in my textbook. Or, oh, that kind of doesn't line up with maybe what my spiritual leaders have poured into me. And so that was the first time mentally I was like, oh gosh, uh-huh. There's a lot of things I believe is truth that are not going well together right now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then that friend saying, like, and and you know that, Hannah, right? Like, you know that's true. And then I was like, Oh, am I an idiot for not knowing where dinosaurs came from if they roamed? Am I an idiot for not knowing about life on other planets? I don't know.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00What about you?
SPEAKER_03So you felt intellectually so your textbooks and things were Christian perspective Some Yeah, and then in and then middle school I did go to public school.
SPEAKER_00Okay. And you know I wasn't listening. I was in the back doing my own thing. I was clocking which guy I had a crush on.
SPEAKER_03I do know you well enough to imagine that you were not totally locked in to what was going on up at the front of the room. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, eventually I did have a public A public school education.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Christian college too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, GCU lopes up.
SPEAKER_03GCU lopes up. Yeah. Nice. Nice. Go back to the code.
SPEAKER_01They don't really talk about God much though. Yeah, it's kind of a personal thing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yep. So for me, um so I I got so I came to Christ as a again as a 12-year-old. I was in junior high. What we called it here junior high. Most people call it middle school, but it was it was just um seventh and eighth grade were the only ones in that building. So they called it the junior high. And um or wait, maybe ninth grade. No.
SPEAKER_00Mine was sixth, seventh, eighth.
SPEAKER_03In the middle in middle school? Right. Mine was just seventh and eighth.
SPEAKER_00What a dark place.
SPEAKER_03Which is really weird.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um and I barely survived that.
SPEAKER_00Me too.
SPEAKER_03But the Lord came and saved me. And so so I grew up, you know, in a public school setting, and um and but early on in my faith, uh, the young life leaders in my life, the uh the older uh high school Christians, I knew that there was a sense that the school system doesn't love that you're a follower of Jesus. And in fact, my young life leader would, if they wanted to spend some time with me at lunch or right after school, uh, they were not allowed to come on the campus of the school. And I was like, you're kidding? Like, I can imagine people that are not allowed to come on the campus, like, isn't everybody allowed to come on the this was a different time too. Like, this was not like like we we have with the the horrors that happened of shootings and things that have raised the security spectrum so much. No, this was like the school's like part of the community. It's like walking into the library or walking into the and like, oh my gosh, if like if you're a Christian, you're not allowed to walk onto the grounds of the school. Like, what is this? So I knew there was some animosity. And um and I think one thing that that I remember was uh we had a biology teacher in I think ninth grade, and um and I could say his name. I I wonder if I should.
SPEAKER_00Drop, name, drop, name, drop. But but I'll say something if you say something.
SPEAKER_03There I know, right. But there are listeners who might know what I'm talking. I think if I just describe him, but he was a really big guy, and he had a uh a uh goatee, and he stood on he said I I just remember this. He would sit and teach from a lectern, and he would sit on a stool and his leg would never stop shaking. He was one of those guys whose leg would never stop shaking while he was talking. And he he explained evolution to us and biology and what science says, and he would regularly drop things in, like, I mean, they don't teach you that at church, but I need you to understand this is what reality is. And your parents never told you this, but this is really the real deal. And um, and so if you were in a Christian in that class, you just felt like, oh, um, this guy has a different paradigm of what life is than what I've been learning in Bible study, what I've been learning um that God made the world, made us, loves us, there's meaning and purpose. And I remember um just kind of trying to absorb this idea of what if the whole thing was just pure what I would call now materialistic naturalism, was just pure godless, accidental uh biology and chemistry. And like that, love is uh an accidental biological chemical reaction in my brain. And I would try to just sort of like absorb that for a while, and uh, and then I was just so glad that it's that that there's nothing in that that rings true to me. It's like you've gotta be nuts. You that takes more kind of like uh faith and discipline in my mind than it takes to sort of accept that maybe this was all made by a God who has some intentions for me. I don't know. But I remember that as being a distinctive. And then there was a teacher of psychology in the high school.
SPEAKER_00Yep, that's what I remember. What you're describing or just described was my psychology class. Oh, tell me, oh gosh, like is this all chemicals? Like, how can a God love me if it's just chemicals? Or yeah, the psychology, go ahead.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So that so that was in you're in the public school system and there's a psychology teacher. And did Christians like watch out for that teacher or they did for a philosophy teacher.
SPEAKER_00One of my Christian I knew this teacher was a Christian, and she said, What's your schedule, girl? And I said, I got philosophy this year. And she said, You better pray your heart out before you enter that door. I said, Oh gosh. Yeah, what's going on in there?
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00But psychology just happened to be an existential crisis waiting to happen.
SPEAKER_03For you? Yeah. That c that class? Oh yeah. Oh, I want to hear about that. Okay. But it was the same thing in at my high school. There was uh uh Mr. Blank and and everyone would talk about, oh, if you're a Christian, because he would actually make a speech at the beginning, like, I don't want any Bible verses on your answers to these questions. Um, we're gonna be talking about um uh you know the big questions of life. And I'm he would say, I'm just gonna tell you right now, if you if you're a Christian walking in here and you think you're gonna be a Christian walking out of here, you're gonna get a C in this class. I mean, he would say that like outright.
SPEAKER_00Oh gosh.
SPEAKER_03Which is amazing, right? Yeah. So you would like early days of my Christian faith and spiritual warfare days and thinking about angels and demons and spiritual darkness and spiritual light, you know, walking by that class, I could feel like the chill of the cemetery, you know. And I'm just like praying, like, oh Lord, go in there, send the light in there. And I had friends that were in there that were fine, and you know, Christian friends.
SPEAKER_00But A's? Did they walk out with A's?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and they got maybe like a B minus. That's okay. Yeah, I know. B minus is fine.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, just praying over that. The schools are a weird place.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, they are a weird place. But I I started to get that sense that, oh, there must be some big divorce between faith and science.
SPEAKER_00Well, how would you I mean if it is a divorce, faith and science, I don't believe it is. I believe personally that God created science.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So then faith is also science. And I'm not running these science experiments, so I have to have faith that this medicine I'm putting in my body is gonna work. Or I'm not the one looking at global warming, or I'm not the one so there's faith in that too. But in your experience, how do you comfortably start to hold both?
SPEAKER_03Both together. So I've been on a pretty intense and long intellectual journey. Um, and it it went through uh sort of undergrad and then into uh theology at the master's level for seminary, and things just really started to light up for me of studying systematic theology, biblical theology, um, historical theology, like what are the doctrines of the faith. Um, but then uh I really got excited about philosophy, like ancient philosophy. And so, like the next place God took me was not really like, hey, let's have a big fight about molecules. It was um uh actually, I'm reading these ancient philosophers who are trying to answer the big questions. And and a lot of what they're saying, like I just really love to hear how they made sense of the world. I'm just I'm just like excited. I'm excited about uh how um these pre-Socratic philosophers looked at at change and constancy and time and matter and um and how they interact and how you can never dip your hand in the same river twice and stuff like that, and like how uh I was just leading men's Bible study this morning, and I I put something on the whiteboard called Xeno's Paradox. Have you ever heard of Xeno's Paradox? Ancient philosopher, pre-Socratic philosopher, and he basically had this brain bender that said if you want to get from point A to point B, the first thing you have to do is go halfway. Do you agree?
SPEAKER_00Sure.
SPEAKER_03Wouldn't you agree?
SPEAKER_00I think so. Yeah. Are you gaslighting?
SPEAKER_03I'm getting you into a problem. So so okay, so now I've gone halfway between A and B. Okay, so there's a segment left. The only way to get across that segment is to first go halfway. Wouldn't you agree?
unknownOh no.
SPEAKER_03Oh no. And so so I'm gonna go halfway in that segment. Well, now there's still a segment of distance. The only way to get from there to there is to go halfway first. You have to go halfway first. And what he what he said was, now how on earth does anything or anybody get from point A to point B? Because you always have halfway to go first, and that's gonna go on for infinity. Isn't that dark? Isn't that a shame?
SPEAKER_00I wish you never told me that.
SPEAKER_03It's a brainbender. You just sit in a dark room and you stare, you know, a thousand miles out, and and you just realize that actually I can't even walk across the room logically.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Like, I'm really stuck now. And then that thought without dropping into the an infinite abyss.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And but I love stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's like, okay, I really gotta think about this, or how um, and and so one of the things that the ancients uh thought about a lot, non-Christian ancients, was how is it that the order of my life matches the order of the world around me in a way that I can comprehend it? Uh, how is it that I can come to understand um where the fish travel and what when to expect to catch some of them? How is it that I can understand how uh the corn's gonna grow and how much water it needs? How is it that I can understand how to build my home and uh and to build my my family and to build my my business or to build a city together? And so they called that, they actually called that logos, which means word, and they talked about the logos is the rational order of the universe. Then if it wasn't in me as much as it's in the universe, I wouldn't understand the universe. I wouldn't be able to communicate with others, and I wouldn't be able to communicate with the universe in the sense of being able to interact with it in a way that I can technologically advance my life. And so just thinking about that stuff is like, wow, I just I love thinking of those big picture things. And if you get into that space, you start to realize that the modernist divorce between science, you know, and faith is a total farce. Like science is an act of faith, it's a constant act of faith. There's in fact, the the scientific method is to propose something that you're not certain of, but you believe. And then to walk towards it in in sort of almost uh um almost defiant or or determined ways. Um but as you walk toward it, you learn more so that you actually stop believing that, and now you're gonna believe something else. And then you're gonna start walking toward that, believing that it exists before you actually see it. And um and that's how science actually operates. And so that's that's going down a big road, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You got me fired up.
SPEAKER_03You got me fired up. Yeah, and you get all the way there, you gotta go halfway first.
SPEAKER_00You could be in here all day.
SPEAKER_03I know. Or for infinity.
SPEAKER_00Well, um I I'm not gonna name drop because this person is not in my high school life. He's in my current life.
SPEAKER_02Good.
SPEAKER_00Um, so my husband and I have a dear friend who um over at our house all the time. And one day I walk in and I'm in a great headspace. I am loving life. I walk into my house, the boys are already there. And our friend says pause the game because it's Smash Bros. night. That's when they played.
SPEAKER_03Is there Smash Bros. night at your house? Tuesday you can't come. Tuesday is Smash Bros. night?
SPEAKER_00They've maxed out at four people. At least that's what they told me.
SPEAKER_03Well, if there's a gap.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_03Like if somebody can't make it or something. Okay.
SPEAKER_00But so I'm walking in, they pause it, and so I'm thinking, this is serious. Is like someone engaged? Did someone die? Like, why are we pausing this? And usually they don't acknowledge my existence in the room if I walk into Smash Night. Like, I just gotta respect the night.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00They're in it. So I pause the game, and the friend says, or Trey, my husband, says, Hannah, like he has a question he wants to ask you that I'm not able to answer. Okay. I'm like, I know everything. I got this.
SPEAKER_02Good.
SPEAKER_00So then he says, There's a lot going on in the world. And I was like, You're so right. I'm I love a person who's with the current events and is not in La La Land. Yeah. And he was like, Explain it.
SPEAKER_03All of it.
SPEAKER_00I said, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, I cannot.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00But I can say I I couldn't. I was just sitting there. And then he was like, okay, now can you try to explain why all of this is happening and you believe in God? And I was like, yeah, I believe in God. Um, I believe in God because He's good. Um, do I think this world is good? No. Do I think there's goodness in it that God's created? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But I don't believe that war is God. And that God is like this puppeteer that's like, and this side's gonna win, and this side's gonna die, and the other. But I do believe that God is good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then I just started getting teary and emotional, and I looked at him and I was like, I know your heart is hurting, minus two.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And what that's all I could meet him with is the answer of it just kind of sucks.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And there's a lot going on. Um and my husband and I are like, What is the next question he's gonna face us with? If it was at first, there's badness in the world. Right. And I was like, Well, the next thing is science. Like, can we believe in both?
SPEAKER_03Okay, because he's done that before.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he's always bl and we're like, I don't know. He and he's so good. I'm so bad under pressure, but our friend is really good at catching us off guard.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00So if you don't mind, I've got some questions that I've been thinking of that I'm like, he could potentially hit me with.
SPEAKER_03Okay, do you want to act like him and I'll act like you?
SPEAKER_00Um yeah. I think that'll make it more comfortable. Um okay, this one might be too direct. So you can say yes, no, we're not gonna do that.
SPEAKER_02Oh, all right.
SPEAKER_00The first one I'm thinking of is medicine and modern medicine.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Because we do have some people who are saying, Yeah, God created the medicine. Uh there's other people who are like, no, we can be all natural.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00I'm just a twenty six year old girl. I don't know. I don't know what to do. My mom Was such a little hippie girl that she was really, oh yeah, she was giving us all the herbs and stuff. I'm gonna be like, girl, I'm getting sick. And she would say, Well, have you taken a clove of garlic down the throat? Up the nose.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I'm just trying to solve world the world's problems. Do you feel like you get faced with the whole medicine thing at all, with all the people you interact with?
SPEAKER_03So there are some branches of Christianity where to use medicine feels like you're not praying, you're or you're you're not trusting God enough.
SPEAKER_01Pray away.
SPEAKER_03Um and I have um uh Abigail and I uh my wife have a a dear friend from college days, and she walked away from her faith and is still away from Christian community and would not call herself a Christian. And the basis of that was that her mother was in a Christian community of that sort and got breast cancer and refused to go in and find any medical treatment for it, and she died. And so she lost her her mother. And um that's not the camp that I'm in at all. And I think as a Christian, I think you should one what what we should look at is um as as God put Adam and Eve in the garden, he said, now cultivate it, now till the garden. And and uh since we're in like a faith and science like thing, I'll I'll say like, whatever you believe about Adam and Eve, okay? But this this story of God creating humanity includes this notion that I'm putting you in the world, and your job as a human being is not uh just to sit with the world as it is, but your job as a human being is to cultivate the world, to make something of the world. And so I don't want you to leave it just as it is. I want you to use your capacity, your intelligence, your creativity, your imagination to take the components of the world and make something of it for flourishing and for good. Make something that's true, that's beautiful, that's good. That could be artistically, that could be scientifically, that could be technologically, and we're watching how human beings have this creative capacity. You know, I mean, it's something that is very unique to the human race as opposed to the um uh humans versus animals, right? So God intended us to sort and to understand and to utilize the things of creation to uh do what? The greatest command. Love God and love each other. Neighbor, yeah, each other. You nailed it. You nailed it, yeah. And uh and so as I'm making things of the world, I want to make things that are alleviating human suffering, that are helping people to be healthy, that are helping the people to get over sickness. What a beautiful, awesome thing. And it's isn't it profound? Like they're still like running into I mean, uh this isn't probably how they think of it, but they're still like running into the jungle and finding flowers and lizards and stuff. I mean, there's still stuff of creation that just has not even been someone's like, you know what, if you take this and you know, it's like you're that's insane. Or if we if we combine this compound, or if um boy, uh my uh cousin, Abigail's uh cousin, uh he went through, he's he got a biology degree, and he spent like his first seven years in his career coming up with a dye that will attach to the plaque that causes um Parkinson's, so that if you take this dye, they can track how much plaque is building up in your brain that's gonna cause uh-oh. I see the Parkinson's or Alzheimer's. It might be Alzheimer's. But and they did it. Like they figured out how to make this dye that sticks to the plaque that causes the disease. And it's like, this is awesome. And does God want us doing that for his glory to love him and to love others, to use our capacity to make something of the world that helps? A hundred percent. Um now, I will say that sometimes uh we put an end that we want to see above the means. Sure. And so maybe we are um, for example, I would not uh be a proponent of um things that you saw in Nazi Germany, or uh things that where a human being is being abused in order to come to a scientific end. Uh or there's you've got to get into a lot of of good, thoughtful questions of not only can we do it, but should we do it? Yeah. And not only uh is it gonna be done, but how is it gonna be done? And uh not only do we have this technology, but where did it come from and what cost was spent for it? And I think those are questions that very often don't get asked in the medical community because people get too narrowly focused on I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna create this capacity uh to technologically manipulate the environment to get the result that I want, without asking, like, is this healthy? Is it good? Is it true? Is it beautiful? And uh, but I think what's wonderful is to study science and to find all the ways that pursuing it in a a God-honoring way actually broke open results that otherwise probably would not have been would have been found.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That is like a an epiphany moment for me of science can be good and it can be can be awesome. Yeah, but the key is like like anything else, glorifying God with it. Um singing could be good, but then like how is the singer using it to glorify God? And just like anything else that God has gifted us.
SPEAKER_03So art can be good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And and amazingly, um when we don't allow and I'll be honest, it really has gotten to the point where it it's usually a childish perspective. Even scientists, you know, even secular scientists see that as a childish divorce of knowledge because they recognize how much faith plays a part in moving forward in science. And uh so to to turn um, and gladly we've had really good figures in science lately who have uh united faith and science in a different way. It's actually usually ethical secularists who try to create this sort of division. And it they're doing it for different reasons. Um but I want to recommend a book.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Okay. Yeah, what do you think?
SPEAKER_03Um, this is probably the most one of the best and most unread books out there about this. Mary Midgley. Mary Midgley is her name, and the book is called Science as Salvation, and she is a Christian, and what she does is she studies um places where uh the philosophy of science got in competition with Christianity, and she brings to bear like this is how these people saw the world. And they really believed that science would save them, and they were putting their faith in it, and here's how it ended. Like, here's where it went. And it's just such a good book, and I bet nobody's read it.
SPEAKER_00I haven't. Actually, I have.
SPEAKER_03Oh, really? No. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00Mary Midgley.
SPEAKER_03Mary Midgley, Science as Salvation. Oh, it's so good.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Yeah. So go home, read this book, and also what I'm gonna try to do after this conversation is really think about the what what I'm believing and the possibilities that it could have to glorify God. And yeah, really analyzing my worldview on science, on salvation, on all of that. Um but I think what my takeaway is from this conversation is just that there is space for both things in one room. Like I don't have to be like, all my logic leaves now that I'm with the Christians. Right. Like, no.
SPEAKER_03No, there's so much room to grow in knowledge of God and of others and of creation. And in fact, if God didn't make us all in order with one another, there'd be no opportunity for that. But he did. And he's put us in a world that he longs for us to discover and enjoy and cultivate and make something of. And he's given us the capacity to do that. And science is just one expression of that. Um, so yeah, ask your questions of science, ask your questions of faith, um, ask those questions together. Don't assume that because you once heard from some one person that Christianity cannot comport with this idea in science. Um maybe go a little bit deeper. Go a little bit further. Um, hold those two things in tension for a while, and maybe see how there's there's more to understand than um kind of the single blog post understanding that you might be going with.
SPEAKER_00Just stay curious. Stay curious.
SPEAKER_03That's okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you.
SPEAKER_03Hannah, thanks for filling in to be Light and Life Podcaster. We want we want Liza to feel good. She doesn't feel good right now, and so uh we're uh grateful for her. And thank you everybody for being part of the Light in Life Podcast today with our guest host, Hannah Castle, everybody. And uh awesome job. And keep pursuing Jesus and making something of the world for his glory.
