How to Handle Conflict Without Shutting Down

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If you know a conversation matters but you keep putting it off because you do not want to make it weird or make it worse, this is for you. This episode will help you understand why conflict feels so loaded and how one honest step can move you toward trust, real community, and belonging.

- Why hard conversations can feel emotionally expensive even when you care about people
- How to tell the difference between peacemaking and avoidance
- One low-pressure next step for saying something true without trying to fix everything at once

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

You're thinking about conflict wrongly. You're thinking the best thing to do is to avoid conflict. But what if conflict is the raw material for discipleship?

SPEAKER_03 0:16

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Light Life podcast. So excited that you're here. I'm your host, Liza. I'm here with Pastor Tim.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

Hi, Liza. It's good to be together.

SPEAKER_03 0:25

Good to be with you two. Before if they cut this out, we don't know if they will. We were singing the Kit Kat Bar.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

76 episode, which has a jingle.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

Break me up with a piece of the Kit Kat Bar.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

76 podcast. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

And we don't know why that makes sense, but it does.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

I mean, it makes as much sense as it needs to make.

SPEAKER_03 0:49

Are we okay? I don't know if we're okay. It's been a long day, folks. It really has. And speaking of long days, today we're talking about conflict.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Let's fight.

SPEAKER_03 0:59

And duking it out.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Duking it out.

SPEAKER_03 1:01

What's your best fight technique?

SPEAKER_02 1:03

I think go dirty fast. Like be the go low, go dirty fast. Be the first one out.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

When you say dirty, like what's are you like biting people?

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Yeah, right. Just yeah, clawing the eyes. Okay. Um, you know. I think sweep the leg. No mercy.

SPEAKER_03 1:20

You could probably take me physically. Like if we if we're in a fight, you and I. But I think my wit, verbally, I could really do some damage in any sort of altercation, like physically, you might have me, but I can be quick.

unknown 1:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:35

Same with like this is why I could never be in the military ever. Well, if they try to like. First of all, I'm emotional.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:45

I talk back.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

And I don't know. I think they would break me physically. But they would yell at me and I'd be like, why are you being so mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

And also, that mustache looks bad on you. Like I would just be.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Ooh, and then you'd be in big that wouldn't work out. They would get that out of you real quick.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

These aren't the real fights that we're actually going to talk about today.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Although it does pertain. Like it part of my story was definitely growing up in a conflict averse situation, family situation. Like I didn't want to start a fight. I didn't want anybody to start a fight. Like I wanted to be the peacekeeper, callmaker. And and so it was actually I often talk about, you know, going to basic training uh for the Army after college. Like I'm I'm 21 and I'm in basic training in Fort Jackson, South Carolina. And it's the first time really that I learned how to fail and resiliently stand back up. Like okay, not like failing this or getting you mad having you upset at me is gonna be okay. Like I we're gonna we're gonna make it through. Because the thing with basic training is that that's the whole thing is that they're gonna be mad at you.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

Like that's this is their for a long time.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Like for the history of the army, the the way that they figured out how to train you is to be really, really mad at you. And uh and yeah, that's like that's the way they're gonna do it. And they're doing that in order to, you know, drop and give me 10, drop and give me 20, just let's we're gonna they used to call it we're gonna smoke you. Like the whole platoon would get smoked by the drill sergeants, which meant like you're gonna do exercises, as they said, until the cows come home. And and right now the cows are in China. That's what they would say. That was a little afraid. That's my nightmare. You're gonna do sit-ups until the cows come home, and right now the cows are in China, so you just do sit-up, soldier. And learning how to uh recognize that this person's emotional anger toward me isn't actually um I don't I get to choose how I respond to that. And in the Army was the first time I was like, oh, you don't think that my boots are polished enough? Um, so you're gonna make me drop and do 20 push-ups. And early on, I was like, oh no, I can't believe it, because I really tried. Like, did can't you see that I tried? I tried. I wiped the boots more than the anybody else. I was wiping my boots. And uh it wasn't about the boots, it was about I want you trained, you know, physically.

SPEAKER_03 4:13

So I'm gonna stay mad at you forever.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

So I don't care if I don't care if it's your boots or your your you know your your uniform or I'm gonna find something, your haircut, the way you looked at me. Um I'm gonna put you on the ground and have you do push-ups because you need to do push-ups to get strong. So it is just um what I'm saying is like it taught me as a young man how to actually go through conflict and stand back up and say, okay, whatever this relationship is, it's actually going to endure this conflict and maybe come out stronger on the other side. I never had that before. I really didn't. So it does, it pertains to conflict.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

I think I'm similar, but I still separate workplace conflict and personal conflict.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

Okay, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

And what I mean by that is I think working in sales has made me want to get things done quickly and efficiently. And when someone gets in my way or isn't doing their job, I'm really aggressive. Okay and I'll say, why hasn't this been done? I need an explanation. Um I'll CC their boss, like I'm ruthless. Okay, truly. But then if someone which is a chill out a little bit, like have some grace, yeah, I realize that that's a flaw of mine. But personally, if I um if someone has wronged me, there's a chance you might not know. Like if you hurt my feelings, there's a chance that like I'll I'll avoid it forever and hopefully I'll forget it. I'll forget about it and I can move on. And the reverse of that is if I've wronged somebody and they've addressed it with me, you'll never see me again. Like I don't if I know that I've wronged someone and they come up to me, I like can't physically face it. So I'll I'll do one of two things. I'll either aggressively try to make them like me and get on their good side, which makes them not like me more.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

Because I make the situation worse by trying so hard to like make things better, or I run away because I'm like, oh my gosh, this person hates me. It's too much, I can't take it. So isn't that fascinating though? Like I can I can be really direct in a workplace when we're like we when we have a shared goal, but it's in my personal life and it impacts me and my relationships, I'd almost rather die than have a hard conversation. Yeah. What is that?

SPEAKER_02 6:53

Yeah. I think the fear of um I mean, the closer someone is to you, the more they can hurt you. That's just the way it is. I mean, the closer someone is to you, the more you care what they think about you. So uh, you know, somebody that's just passing down the street and saying, you know, you stink. Well, all right, fine, you know. Or like online trolls or things that, you know, just folks that are just gonna, you know, fire off an email at you like that sermon was trash and you're a terrible person. And and um like awesome. Okay, like great, man. That that I appreciate your input. Um I mean I don't appreciate, but it it's just like that it just doesn't even come close, really. It's like um I can understand that you're over there and I wish the best for you. But then the closer you get. Oh, wait, you're my child, you're my wife, you're my parent, you're you're my best friend, and they say something critical, then it it's gonna be so much outsized. The emotion of that is gonna be so much outsized because you're you care a lot more about what they think. The closer they are to you, the more you care what they think.

SPEAKER_03 8:04

Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

And I think part of that is um is too, you feel like, well, you know, the two challenges are to be known and to be loved. You can be loved and not known, and then you realize, oh, this is just a f this doesn't feel real, right? You can be known and not loved, and that's painful.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 8:25

But the real desire is of the human heart is to be known and loved, fully known and fully loved. And uh when that starts to get sort of threatened, or you think that's happening and then it doesn't, it falls apart, that's a lot of pain. So of course you're afraid of of um of stepping into a place where pain is a possibility.

SPEAKER_03 8:46

Have you ever been in a situation where avoiding conflict has made things worse? Can you share an example?

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

Hit me with it.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

Well, yeah, I'm pretty open in my, you know, because um church leadership is is different, right? Because it's both personal and professional.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

Right. Oh yeah. See, I'd be at war with myself.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

Yeah. So always. So you're in a little war with yourself.

SPEAKER_03 9:14

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Like, um, am I the pastor, the champion of uh of an ever-tolerant, fathomless love family? Am I a leader who needs to make have these crucial conversations of why isn't that done or where are we going and why aren't you why aren't you on board? Um am I both of those things somehow at the same time? Is it professional? Is it personal? Is it spiritual? Is it so those things really get, I think, in my role, um, it's hard to keep all those things parsed out. Um, but uh because I'm I grew up with a kind of a desire to not prompt conflict in my family situation, um, I have to be thoughtful and direct about um, I need to have a crucial conversation. And so, you know, setting up times for, hey, uh, this is a meeting where we're gonna have a crucial conversation about X and trying to be, I've had to learn um methodologies that I have to intentionally deploy. Because if I just leave myself to my own devices, then I'll just let things go down the river and say, I hope somebody works this out.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

I hope it fixes itself down.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

I hope it fixes itself down the line. Um so you have to learn how to have those those crucial conversations.

SPEAKER_03 10:34

Wow. Yeah, I think there have this is a hot take. There have been times where avoidance has worked out for me.

unknown 10:44

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 10:45

And that I know is not a good thing to say because there's been times where it's really not worked out for me. Especially internally, I'll let things faster and faster and faster, and then I blow up, and now I'm the one that looks bad. And like say in a roommate situation, or like someone's really wronged me, and I have not told them why I'm upset or that I'm upset at all.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:12

And so every little thing they do, I'm te I'm keeping mental track of, yeah, which is so not cool or not fair. But then there have been times where I've I've calmed down and let it go, and nothing, nothing bad has happened. So I guess my question with that is like, how do you how do you know the difference between like, hey, I really just don't want to cause a problem, I really don't want to make things worse. How do you decipher the difference between like unhealthy avoidance and like truly just wanting to keep everything at peace?

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Right, right. Yeah, how do you enter into conflict as a Christian in a way that's fruitful? Um because honestly, you don't it isn't just, hey, let's go low, strike hard, you know, win. That's not what we're at. Um, but we recognize that conflict is part of life in community, it's part of life in church, it's part of life in our most cherished relationships. Um, and so how do you enter into conflict fruitfully? And uh, I think it is true that you have to um if something's there, you have to first of all be honest, that's there. Like don't don't talk yourself out of it. Don't say, I think that was just uh maybe I was misreading it or something. If there's something there, then let it be there. Let it be there. It's there. Take it to the Lord, say, Lord, is this is there a there there? Does that make sense? Like because if you don't um if you don't go go toward it when it's just a pinch, like, ooh, that was like that felt like a pinch, it's actually just gonna grow and get worse. So going towards it when it's smaller keeps it from becoming an eruption or an uncontrolled emotional conflict, or um getting into a situation that you regret where you've said things that you wish you could take back, uh, where it becomes more hurtful. And so I think that's the the first thing is to say, Whoa, that was I felt like a pinch there. Pay attention to those things and say, I think there's something there. That doesn't mean you have to respond right in the moment, but you need to recognize I think there's a potential conflict there. And at some point we're gonna need to sit down and and name it.

SPEAKER_03 13:35

Address that.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

And address it. Um so uh when when I was in the again, when I was in the Army Chaplaincy, one of the key things that chaplains could do is help uh marriages to survive, survive a deployment, because a lot of marriages crash in a deployment. Um and so we did a lot of training for couples on how to navigate the separation, uh, the two different parallel experiences. You know, one person's in war, one person's at home trying to run the family without the other. Uh they're both going through hard times, but very different experiences. And now you're gonna come back together. And uh what we would train couples on is uh how to fight what we called fighting for the marriage. So it's like you need to learn how to fight, but you need to learn how to fight in a way that is healthy, and that what you're fighting for is the marriage. And so you're not fighting over this, you're not fighting each other. You're fighting for the marriage.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

I love that.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

And and so if you can name a conflict and say, this is getting the way of our relationship, and the goal is that we're, you know, that we're a stronger couple, or the goal is that we're a stronger friendship, or the goal is that we're a stronger uh part of the church together, uh, or part of our staff team. Now you've got the conflict, the problem, and you're putting it in front of both players and saying, how can we both fight for the better of this problem? How could we both solve this? So it's not a my problem, your problem, it's an our problem, and maybe we can put it out ahead of us and start to uh still have conflict, but now instead of it being an interpersonal conflict, it's a constructive conflict towards a goal.

SPEAKER_03 15:18

That's beautiful, and I think that's something that you could say even to someone if if we take you know that picture of a marriage and we bring that into the church and the church body. I think a lot of people that come to church um are too s are are scared to be honest, myself included at times. Um to be honest and to be real and to be authentic, because that's where real relationship starts is again being known, being loved, being honest, yeah and having grace for one another. But what would you say to someone if they're wondering or if they are scared to enter into church community? If you know they're thinking, can I actually be real here?

SPEAKER_00 16:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:09

Are the other people here real? Is everyone just operating under this weird shield of like church kindness and no one actually really cares?

SPEAKER_02 16:18

Yeah, church is definitely a place to have this sort of like um glowing mantle of false kindness sort of take over. And uh what's really interesting is uh to watch the ministry of Jesus, how many times is Jesus in conflict? It's almost like every page. And a lot of times those are the moments where the teaching starts to come out, where uh these are moments where we're really gonna move ahead, like we're really going to advance. Uh just this morning, leading men's Bible study, um, we were in John 5, and uh a man was healed on the Sabbath day. Jesus said, Take up your mat and walk. The religious leaders are really mad about that. And that's the occasion. They're getting mad, and it said they persecuted Jesus. We don't know what that looked like, but they start a fight. And Jesus said, and Jesus answered them, and then there's this long, I mean, like a page and a half of teaching about Jesus explaining, I and the Father are one, I do what the Father commands me to do. My father and I are both working all through the Sabbath, we're always at work. Uh, I this you know, so all this teaching comes out uh because of this, prompted by this conflict. So I was um captured by this idea at a conference last year where someone said, uh, you're thinking about conflict uh wrongly. You're thinking the the best thing to do is to avoid conflict, but what if conflict is the raw material for discipleship? Like what if you can't actually grow as a disciple without the raw material of conflict? Would that make you think about conflict differently? And would that make you want to, you know, go into it? And that doesn't mean eh, I can't wait to go to church and start a fight. Right.

SPEAKER_03 18:09

Can that be the little clip we put on social media is that that one phrase? That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

Like, you know, I can't wait to get in there and start up a fight.

SPEAKER_03 18:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

Um but but if there is conflict, it isn't something to race away from. It's something to explore.

SPEAKER_03 18:28

And lean into.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

And lean into.

SPEAKER_03 18:30

Wow. That's really cool. And I think I mean the same is true with any relationship. Yeah, or any issue that you're experiencing, you can't be propelled forward unless you have these setbacks, and conflict is one of those setbacks.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:46

So wow. I think have you ever seen conflict handled badly where addressing it has turned into a problem?

SPEAKER_02 18:58

Um Have I seen conflict handled badly? Absolutely. Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 19:02

I guess poorly in a way that you're like, oh man, maybe I should have said nothing. Has that ever happened to you?

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Aaron Ross Powell Well, you I mean you this idea of avoidance, like avoidance is a really bad word, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 19:13

But there is and and it is. You know, when there is conflict, it needs to be approached as much as possible from a mature, non-defensive, um mutual sort of goal, like as an opportunity for discipleship, an opportunity for growth. Iron sharpens iron, let's hash it out. Tell me where you are, let me tell you where I am. Uh let's meet again, tell me where you are, let me tell you where I am, and we're going to grow together through that. That's all the mature things. Now, throughout scripture, we also find regularly direct teaching to Christian leaders of Christian communities about what to do when that is not fruitful, right? So the big text about conflict is Matthew 18, like of Christian community uh conflict is Matthew 18, where if someone is, you you know, if church leadership feels like, hey, someone is off base, then what do you do? You go, you confront them. If they don't change, you gather an elder and you go and you talk to them again. You're off base, you're on the wrong track. But then do you remember how Matthew 18 ends? It says, and if they don't turn, you tell the whole congregation, and then you break ranks with them. And so it's like, whoa, like that's not a happy ending.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

No.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

And then there's and then there's throughout the uh pastoral epistles, Paul telling Timothy over and over again, in fact, he names people, right? I mean, there's names of people like this is not how you want to get your name in the Bible. No, it's like like don't talk to that guy. Um and and what Paul explains uh over and over again is that you know what? Uh there's mature walking through conflict to form Christian disciples, and there also come times when that is no longer fruitful, where someone is in such a position that anything you give them is something that they're going to throw at you. So you hand them a peace pipe, they poke you in the eye with it. You know, you you tell them a little bit about yourself, they use that to to uh you know to build up arguments against you and to come and attack you or to gather others to try to you know to attack you, all that stuff. So there's there's a a point where you just say, look, it's not avoidance, but this has gotten to the point where this is over. And what's interesting about healthy conflict in the New Testament is there's nowhere that says it's your responsibility to submit yourself to fruitless attacks. And so, oh, you have to go and you know, you have to get chewed on again, you know, you have to get you should go get chewed on some. No, actually, that's going to hinder the church if you're in a in a position where this conflict has gotten to the point where it's demonstrating that this is just a fruitless attack and there actually is no mutual growth, there is no maturity here. And so it's time to just sort of say, Bless you on your way. I'm blessed on my way. And maybe that maybe God will bring a season around where this can come up again and we can find a new ground. But sometimes uh conflict does come to that point of look, we just need to go two different ways.

SPEAKER_03 22:32

Yeah, and I guess you what you're saying is conflict can kind of lead to clarity in a way. Um I think a lot of times conflict spurs you to pray and discern about given situations. So if I'm, you know, someone who says, I want to find my people, but every hard conversation makes me want to disappear. Hello, it's me, Liza. What would you want me to feel from God? Like how would you tell me to approach God into this situation?

SPEAKER_02 23:13

Well, where do you think that fear comes from?

SPEAKER_03 23:17

If I'm honest with myself, probably how I'm viewed by other people. Okay. Like I want to be viewed as like a kind forgiving person.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:30

And I want I want to be that and I want to be viewed that.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:34

Viewed as that. And the fear is that addressing conflict comes across as like I'm harsh and not someone willing to give grace or extend grace. Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:48

I mean, I actually don't know. It it depends on each situation where I'm experiencing conflict or avoidance, but it I think the root of it is I want to be viewed as like competent, mature, yeah, kind. And all the all the good things.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

Yeah, you it's an identity question. So if you're in a conflict and you're genuinely drawing your identity from that that person on the other side of the conflict, then you're gonna be in a difficult spot. You're gonna be real emotional, you're gonna be anxious, you're gonna be disturbed because your identity is in question in front of that person. I mean, you're you're resting your value in what they think of you. And so that's just going, you know, um you're you're just gonna be um in despair. You're just gonna be in and or anxiety of if you say the wrong thing, I collapse.

SPEAKER_03 24:45

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

And um so it's nice.

SPEAKER_03 24:48

It's my fight or flight.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

Fight or flight.

SPEAKER_03 24:50

Yeah, it's on full alert.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Yeah. So what does the Lord want for us? He wants us to know that our identity is rested in him. And that uh any relationship that that we're in. Um I love you and and I want to be in a relationship with you, and uh I want us to be friends, I want us to be um husband-wife, I want us to be, you know, happily uh father-son, whatever it is, the the conflict that you are that you're in. Um but inside I know ultimately Jesus Christ has defined my value. And so you could walk away from this conversation thinking I I can't ultimately be responsible about what you think, right?

SPEAKER_03 25:36

That's true.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

Uh you're gonna think what you think, you're gonna respond how you respond. And I can't really get in there and change that. I can't manipulate that. If I think I can, that's just gonna increase my frustration. Like I'm gonna stew on that. How can I get in there and change that? I can't actually get into your head. So um, you're gonna, I'm gonna share with you who I am before the Lord, why I've done what I've done, what whatever it is. And I have to be okay with the fact that you might walk away and um and think very little of me, and I've got to be okay with that. But I think the other thing that we often need is we need to go through these crucial conversations, these conflicts, so that we know that you know what? Actually, this relationship can endure honesty.

SPEAKER_03 26:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

You know? And and and then you're getting close to known and loved. Not loved and being unknown, uh, not being unknown and loved, but known and loved.

SPEAKER_03 26:38

What do you think and as we wrap up our time here, and I know we've talked, you you've said a lot of helpful, wise things, thank you. Um what do you think one small step to listeners, which myself included, if you're avoiding hard conversations, not to fix everything, but you know, what's one honest, low pressure next step they could take this week or next week to start kind of moving towards trust trust and truth and honesty in a loving way.

SPEAKER_02 27:13

Well, and honestly, and we didn't get into this, but when you do stuff like that marriage training on conflict, there's a lot of very um intentional logistics to like uh we're gonna sit together at the right time, we're going to speak in certain terms, like we're not we're not gonna go uh totalizing like you always or you never, or um we're and we're gonna speak um I statements like, you know, I'm not gonna talk about you, I'm gonna talk about me, or I'm gonna talk about this problem that's in front of us. Uh we're gonna exercise active listening. There's all kinds of like Wow. Like there's stuff you gotta know how to do to have conflict become raw material for true, mature discipleship and growth, or for feeding a relationship rather than destroying it. Uh there's stuff to learn in that vein. Um, but what I would say is one thing, you know, one thing walk away out of a podcast is to say, um, to be honest, I think this really bothered me. And I think rather than uh sitting on it or stewing on it or multiplying it, um, I think I want to trust this relationship enough to tell this person um when you did that, it made me feel X and see where it goes. And then you do your best to say, this isn't about you, it isn't about me, it's about this thing that's out in front of us. Um when you left the dishes in the sink.

SPEAKER_03 28:58

I like that one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 29:02

That that's super helpful. Thank you. I think um, yeah, ultimately as a church body, relationship community is so important for our faith.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:15

And to help encourage the faith of the people around us. So if we're avoiding, we're we're not only breaking relationship with the people around us, we're hurting our relationship with Christ.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:29

So um, this has been a really awesome conversation. Thank you guys so much for tuning in and for supporting the podcast. Um look forward to seeing you next time.