Corner Crossing: What is it? Why Are Montanans so Divided Over it? What is the Solution?

This week on the Montana Outdoor Podcast your host Downrigger Dale talks with the Director of Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks, Christy Clark about the VERY controversial issue of Corner Crossing. Corner crossing — the act of moving from one parcel of public land diagonally to another parcel, ostensibly without setting foot in bordering private land — has long been a contentious issue in western states where public and private land is often checkerboarded. As Director Clark put it during the podcast; “I think really what we need to remember here, the reason, it is so divisive is because it really reflects two very cornerstone Montana values, right? Private property rights, profoundly important to Montanans. Public access, the cornerstone of Montana. It's our heritage, right? We're known for having fabulous public access. So, when those two issues butt up against each other, it's going to be a challenge. But I think in that challenge and in that middle ground, there's a lot, we can do to mine that. I think we can look at this as an opportunity to talk about what works, maybe what we haven't thought of.” So that in a nutshell is why if you love to hunt, fish and or just get out and discover Montana’s outdoors, this maybe one of the most important things you watchand or listen to in recent history. Another thing that Rigger and Director Clark talked about was the fact that there is a very important opportunity for all of us to state where we stand on this issue. That opportunity will happen during the Private Land/Public Wildlife Committee (PLPW) meeting June 1st from 8:30 a.m. to 5 p.m. and the 2nd from 8:30 a.m. to 2:45 p.m. in Glasgow at the FWP Region 6 office. You will also be able to attend the PLPW meeting virtually through Zoom. That is where you will be able to give your input on where you stand and, most importantly, offer your solutions on how we can settle this controversy! Gang, this podcast will be a great way to get important information and get your ideas flowing. So, what do ya say? Let’s solve this and get back to enjoying Montana’s Great Outdoors! Make sure you watch and or listen to this Podcast today!

Links:

• To read the press release about the upcoming PLPW meeting in Glasgow on the 1st and 2nd click here.
• Click here to join the PLPW meeting via Zoom on June 1st.
• To join the PLPW meeting via Zoom on June 2nd click here.
• Click Here to get a copy of the agenda for the PLPW meetings on the 1st and 2nd.
• To learn all about the PLPW advisory committee and to contact the PLPW board click here.
• Questions for FWP Director Christy Clark? Click here to send her an email.
• Questions or suggestions for Rigger? Click here to send him and email.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Today we're going to talk about a topic that is a little controversial in the state of Montana. We're talking about corner crossing. Corner crossing is basically where you've got, you know, the checkerboard land patterns where public and private land meet. Now the debate kind of pits recreationists against landowners. It's revolving around whether stepping diagonally from one public parcel to another without touching the ground on private property constitutes criminal trespass and invasion of private airspace. This has been a hot topic. It is got a little bit of, as some people claim, legal ambiguity. Montana state law doesn't explicitly declare corner crossing as legal or illegal. However, my guest, director of the FWP, Christy Clark, views it as illegal. There's a lot of other people that don't agree with her, and many on the other side that do. We're going to get into all that. See just where we all can shake this out. That's next.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

The Montana Outdoor Podcast is brought to you by Rocky Mountain Truck and Trailer, home of lost snow plows and accessories, and Diamond C trailers and accessories. Go to rmtte.com and see everything they have waiting for you online. Or just come by 5680 Expressway in Missoula and by Superior Hardwoods of Montana, delivering the highest quality lumber, paneling, flooring, and reclaimed wood products anywhere in North America. Let them guide you through the woods at their showroom in Missoula on Highway 93 South or at superior-hardwoods.com.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Now, before we get out and get going into this, I want to first recognize two groups that watch this podcast on a regular basis and are extra special to all of us here that work on the podcast and a great deal of those who watch and listen, in fact, most all of you, uh bring up the fact that you're glad that I mentioned these two groups. I'm talking about first our number one, our our active military. They listen on bases and from ships and that all around the world. And right now they're out working their butts off and risking their lives for us. There are really not words that I can say to do justice to how much we all appreciate what you out there are doing for our country. You all are, well, every one of you are very special. We're praying for you. And we're missing you. And indeed, we love you very much. We can't wait for all of you to come home soon. Also, another thank you has to go out to all of our veterans out there that watch and listen to this podcast. What you have done for our country, we all will never forget. That is a promise. And you'll always be very special to each and every one of us here. Thank you for your service. All right, now let's get into our topic today. My guest, the director of the FWP, Christy Clark, views Corner Crossing as illegal, as do many other groups. Um, and um so what I like about what you're doing, Director Clark, is you're saying, okay, rather than us all keep arguing over this, let's find a solution. And so you recently uh got a hold of the uh what we call the PLPW, that's the private land public wildlife committee, and said, look, you guys are pretty uniquely qualified to work on this. So why don't you get together and come up with a solution? So is that where we're at so far? Have I correctly done that?

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Yes, you've captured that well. You captured that well. Um, PLPW was it is it is designed to assist fish wildlife in parks in these types of uh situations, you know, these sticky wickets where we're trying to solve a problem. Um, I mean, litigation is it's an option, right? It but litigation tends to be even more divisive. This this is already divisive. And I think really what we need to remember here, the reason I mean it is so divisive is because it really reflects two very cornerstone Montana values, right? Private property rights, profoundly important to Montanans. Public access, the cornerstone of Montana. It's our heritage, right? We're known for having fabulous public access. Um, and so when we when those two issues butt up against each other, it's going to be it's going to be a challenge. But I think in that challenge and in that middle ground, I think there's a lot, a lot we can do to mine that. I think we can look at this as an opportunity to talk about what works, what maybe, maybe what we haven't thought of. And that's what I asked PLPW. Like, hey, you guys have a meeting coming up. This is your venue, this is what you do already. Is there something? I mean, do you want to look at our access programs? Montana, Fishwild Life and Parks has an enormous suite of access programs that uh many, many private property owners participate in. And we're really fortunate that way. Uh, that's part of what makes Montana so spectacular, is there are lots of places to hunt because people are enrolled in block management and Pala agreements. And so we have a lot of opportunity, plus we have a lot of public land. However, 65% of Montana's land is privately held. And so if we want to expand access, we're going to be needing to reach out to the private landowner. And this, you know, and and and dividing, you know, uh Montana, you know, private landowners against public access, it it just doesn't work. We just need to find that middle ground. That's what we're looking for.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

Well, and what I find is whenever whenever we we run straight to the courts to try to solve something like this, using the outcome is not gonna make anybody happy. And so the idea of trying to to look for an alternative outside of it, get some discussion going, I think is a great approach. Um, one of the things that my email box gets full of, with you know, being a the basically the only outdoor kind of podcast that we do, plus the the live radio show we do every week, uh every Saturday morning all across the state, you know, we're we're talking to folks that hunt and fish and landowners all the time. And uh one of the things that keeps coming up is, well, wait a minute, this really was decided because in Wyoming, the 10th Circuit said, hey, that's not illegal. But we're not governed by the 10th Circuit, we're governed by the Ninth Circuit. So um I think rather than viewing that as a as a negative, that's that is actually kind of a positive because it it really, I think, allows Montana to kind of lead this and get to a final thing that's gonna try to make at least as close as we can everybody happy. What would you say if in the in the perfect world, which rarely is, but uh what would you say the FWP if if you could uh Director Clark say, uh, I decree this, what what would you like to see happen?

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Well, I would like us to all get along, right? That's that's all. No, I I you know, talking about the litigation, it's a long game, you know it is, and it's gonna take probably years for the courts to sort this out. And and like I said, that's one approach. It's expensive, it's time consuming, and it it does add a little more acrimony to an already challenging situation. I think ideally what I would like to do is I would like to ask for voluntary access, right, through enhanced access programs. I mean, we have an access program that is sadly very underutilized. It's called unlocking public lands. And that was the whole point of that was to help us find, you know, those swaths of land that are uh that are blocking large swaths of public land. Um, and so I would like to see us continue down that path. Um, it's is it gonna please everybody all the time? No, it's not, but there is there is a, I think, a way to approach this that isn't so divisive, even though I mean you can take these two enormously important Montana values and you can match those up in a collaboration and everybody wins, right? Um, you know, we did um we did a land acquisition in the big snowies. I use this as an example. Small purchase of land that opened up 100,000 acres of public lands. And those are, I mean, and I think we can identify more of those. And if we had an enhanced uh access program that identified those, I think that that could solve the a lot of the issues. That's my hope. If I had a magic wand, we all played nice in the sandbox.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

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SPEAKER_01 12:54

I haven't heard new ideas. That's what I'm hoping PLPW comes back with is maybe something I maybe something we haven't thought of, right? That would be right, that would be amazing. Um, but in the, you know, in just raising the awareness of the public access programs that we have, because really what I know for sure is that our private landowners are very generous. And they, you know, they enroll in block management, they sign, you know, public access agreements, they give us access, you know, we do a lot with private uh land, public fishing access sites. And so I feel like we're really blessed to have very generous uh private property owners in Montana. Are they all and a lot of them just allow public access without any sort of uh any sort of incentive, right? It's just what we do. It's they recognize that, you know, hunting and fishing and hiking is a big part of Montana's heritage. And a lot of landowners love seeing, you know, a guy or gal, you know, shoot their first buck and, you know, or take down their first bull elk. And so I think it's it's already organically in Montana's genes, right? It's just how we're wired. And raising the awareness of the access program, maybe we'll get some people thinking about, yeah, I I can see, I can see that's important. I I I think I will sign up for some of these programs this year, maybe when they haven't. Um, and you know, Fish Wildlife and Parks just wants to be there to facilitate, to help. You know, we're we're asking the legislature, legislature to give us more full-time employees for access managers so we can get out on the landscape. So those folks that are signed up in those access programs that are maybe experiencing some hunter fatigue, we can step in and we can say, we'll help you manage that. We'll help we'll help direct people and and help with with you know some of the impacts that you're feeling.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Well, I think one of the things that uh FWP did really well when you guys came out with this um it's up to us campaign. And really, I I viewed that more as more than just a public service kind of thing. I mean, there were some solutions kind of tickled around in there. And a big one was okay, let's talk a little bit more about uh what landowners expect from from hunters and recreators and and what hunters and recreators expect from landowners. And really, I I thought that was a masterful program. I thought it was a good idea and it got discussion going. And and we saw landowners, some of them, say, hey, you know, okay, yeah, I might I might go for that. I could, I guess I could do the block management thing. So, I mean, there's stuff out there that that's there. I just think my hope is uh that we we kind of get this my way or the highway mentality out, yeah. And that we say, okay, the the idea here is to find for solutions. So this meeting coming up Monday and Tuesday with the PLPW, what I mean, what are they gonna do in that meeting? Is is that a public thing or um how are they gonna start the discussion?

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Yes, it's a public meeting. They had a full agenda anyway before I uh asked them to take this subject up. So I probably added another day to their agenda. But um, but you know, it's a group of 13 people from very diverse backgrounds. Uh so they will, I mean, they'll tackle the issue. They're very aware of it. It's been, you know, it's been in the news, it's it's been all over social media. And so they know they know what what what's in front of them. And they're just gonna, I mean, hopefully they'll just come up with some some ideas. I do expect them to take a look at our existing access programs and are they adequate? Are we doing enough? Do we need to, you know, dust these off and freshen them up? And so they'll be doing that. And then I'm assuming that they will be bringing new ideas. Uh that maybe, maybe something that we haven't thought of, maybe something that somebody knows works well in another state that uh we could we could adopt. And so that's what I'm that's what I'm anticipating from PLPW. Um, and then there's an opportunity for public comment at that as well. And uh the meeting is in Glasgow, but there's also a Zoom option for public comment. If people want to tune in and if people want to share their ideas, that public comment period is is an excellent uh platform for that.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

Yeah, the meeting is going to run from 8:30 to 5, uh, and that's uh on June 1st, and then 8:30 to 245 on June 2nd. And then after the June 2nd meeting, the members will participate in a field tour and and you know kind of go from there. So uh just so I can understand this, so during that those two days is is that where they will be getting public comment from from people?

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Yes, yes, there will be public comment opportunities throughout the agenda. Yeah. And I won't be in attendance in that. I'm at a conference out of state during those days, but I'll tune in um via Zoom as much as I can.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

So this would be a good opportunity. And for those of you that listen to this podcast on a regular basis, I have preached this and preached this, and I'll crawl right back up on my soapbox and say it again. If you don't like what things are doing, the best way is to give your comments. You know, I I my email, half of my email box gets full of people saying, Well, they shouldn't have done this, they shouldn't have done that, and I'll email back and say, Did you comment on that? Well, no, I didn't do that. Well, that's what you got to do, right? Because if everybody starts chiming in, somebody could have this great epiphany that we all go, hey, that works. Yes. So I hope people will do that. Um, and either get on Zoom or or go there. And by all means, if you need links or anything like that, if you go to the podcast description, which you know, looking at YouTube, you'll see that you know it says uh read more. You can click on that, and there's the podcast description. I'll put links in there so you've got links to be able to get into this stuff and find that. Uh, of course, you can always email me, downrigger at montanaoutdoor.com. I'm happy to send you links. Uh, my goal is if if we can do like we've done so many times, gang, on this podcast, is if we just all get together, something's gonna bubble top, I think.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Yes, yeah. And I like that. I mean, that's what we do in Montana, right? We all, you know, get our cup of coffee and come to the table and let's sort through this. Let's sift it, sort it, cut it, let's figure out where it lands in a place where where we can we can collaborate. I mean, that's what that's what I love about Montana is we do always try to find solutions. We really do. Um, and you know, just letting the you know, we could we could at FWP just sit on our hands and shrug our shoulders and say, well, we'll see what the court says, but that's not our style in Montana, you know? No, no, no. We we're you know, these next few years, we're gonna try to solve this. I mean, not that it's ever gonna be perfect. Because like I said, when we have those enormously important values competing and bumping heads, we're gonna have we're gonna have conflict. And that's okay. It's okay to disagree. But in the meantime, and in the middle of that, is a lot of gold to be to be mined. I really believe that. I think that's where good ideas and opportunities come from. And and I'm excited that PLPW is engaged in this now. I'm excited. I I got text messages um all throughout the evening last night telling me different ways that they can do them. Some of them were facetious, but some of them were ideas. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

So people like I guess they're pretty entertaining emails sometimes, but hey, you know. Yeah. But yeah. Rocky Mountain truck and trailer. Truth is, the Montana Outdoor Podcast wouldn't exist without their incredible support. And if you've been enjoying these episodes each week, maybe it's time to support the folks who help make it happen. So here's the question Do you need a trailer for work, for hauling gear to your next adventure? Well then, go see the folks who already get what you're about. You see, if you listen to this show, you've already got something in common with Rocky Mountain Truck and Trailer. Like you, they love the outdoors, they work hard, and they're dang good at what they do. Their job? Helping people like you get your work done faster so you can get back out in Montana's great outdoors. Rocky Mountain Truck and Trailer carries a full lineup of Diamond C trailers, gooseneck, equipment, dub trailers, well, you name it. Whether you're hauling a few supplies or towing the big stuff, Diamond C trailers are built to handle it all with reliability and ease. Plus, they service everything they sell. Need your trailer rewired so the lights work the way they're supposed to? They'll take care of that too. Got a new truck? They'll get you set up with the accessories you need, installed and ready to roll. And don't wait until the last minute to schedule your trailer service. Do that ahead of time so your gear's ready to go when you are. They also stock a huge selection of parts for boss snowplows and diamond sea trailers, and if it's not in stock, they'll find it. Need financing? Well, they've got you covered there too. Need a gooseneck or fifth wheel hitch for that rodeo trip or family outing to the Great Outdoors? Yep, they install those too. Rocky Mountain Truck and Trailer. They're in Missoula at 5680 Expressway. You can call them at 406-549-4243. Or check them out online at rmtte.com. That's Rocky Mountain Truck and Trailer. RMTTE.com. Now let's get back to what Rocky Mountain Truck and Trailer helped create the podcast. I really think that that that we can do this. Um and what what my goal is, you know, this this kind of is getting this discussion started on the podcast, but what I will hope is, you know, I mean this this podcast, believe it or not, it's crazy, but it is now in the top one percent of podcasts in the nation.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Wow. Congratulations, that's quite an accomplishment.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Yeah, I mean, we've got over regular listeners in over 2,000 cities in crossing 80 countries.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

Uh uh plus you know, every town, every county in Montana, all that. So can we figure this out? And I think if we open our mind a little bit, and that's where, you know, sh if you if you're not comfortable giving your public comment, well, send it to me and I'll pass it on to Director Clark, and I'll pass it on to the people and we'll we'll get it figured out. I I really think we can.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Right. What I know doesn't work is it doesn't work for me to sit behind a desk in Helena and not listen to the people out there that are, you know, that are on the landscape and that understand how these issues are and they feel them firsthand. And they're so passionate about them. And I we we need to hear from them. We need to hear from those folks. We need to find the solution. We really do. There's durable solutions out there, I'm convinced.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

Right. And that's that comes back to what I've I've said so many times to a lot of you out there in your emails, and that is look, I I'm not trying to, you know, be on the side of FWP or any of that. I I truly believe that you know, as as a broadcaster and podcaster, our job is to try to get as much info out to you so we can all work together on this. But the one thing that that gets me a little hot with you folks is when you say, oh, they don't really listen. They say they want public comment, but they don't listen. Let's clear that up right now. Director Clark, when you say you want comment, you guys actually read those comments and indeed are interested to get them. And they have affected your decision making, haven't they?

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Absolutely, absolutely. I take public comment very seriously. Um, I return uh emails, I read my emails. I mean, it it's a lot, it is, but we that is how we make those decisions. We can't make these decisions, you know, you know, just sitting behind our desk here in Helena. We've got to get out, we've got to talk to people, and and we do listen, absolutely. And you know what? We're not all gonna agree. And some of the suggestions we won't be able to take for a variety of reasons, right? We're we're you know, we're limited by statute, we're you know, we're limited by some of the things we can do, but um, but we always appreciate people taking the time. That's what makes our jobs so meaningful is the people that we serve, right? That's what this is about. It's about you know, Montanans.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Right. Well, I want to thank you for taking time uh uh because this is a great way to kick this this discussion off with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people that watch this podcast all the time. So now we we got the discussion going. Ball's in everybody else's court. Let's see what's going on. Any final comments? I know you got a lot of stuff going on, but any final comments before I let you go.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

I just want to thank you so much for the opportunity to come on your show and have an you know, have this discussion. I appreciate it. People like you are gonna be the ones that carry this message and help us get to the bottom of this. So I am most grateful to you. Thank you, and to your listeners, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

You bet, you bet. And uh when do you think we'll we'll hear some things back? My last question for you from uh this meeting on Monday and Tuesday. Kind of what what's the goal?

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Do you think my guess is in the next week or two we'll hear something? You know, um Environmental Quality Council, that's the interim legislative committee that I answer to. Uh the last meeting that we had with them, the lieutenant governor gave her corner crossing presentation. And then at the end of that, EQC asked, could you guys come up with some ideas for bills that EQC would carry, right? That the committee they could be committee bills. So that that's that's a big ask. So there's that platform, there's the the legislative session coming up as well, right? That I mean, that's what we're gonna be kind of focusing on. So we have these opportunities, but it seems like a long time until the legislature gets going, but it's not, it's a short time, right? So we're in a pretty compressed time frame. So I'm thinking this stuff is gonna roll fairly quickly.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

Okay, well, good. And uh here here's really all of our opportunity to get this thing solved before we have to run to courts and everything else. Wouldn't it be nice for you to be able to tell the legislature we got it, we already solved it. Got it.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

Yes, yes, I would be delighted, and so would they.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

Yeah, yes, really they would. We all would. So all right. Well, uh, Director Clark, thank you so much for coming on the Montana Outdoor Podcast. Don't be a stranger. We'd love to have you on again sometime soon. And and we'll just keep this discussion going and we'll pass on the comments to you.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

All right. I would love that. I would love to be back.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Well, there you have it, folks. There is uh uh FWP director Christy Clark. Um, so let's start thinking about it and doing it. Until then, folks, um, be safe out there, be good to each other, and we're gonna see you next time here on the Montana Outdoor Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Thanks for watching the Montana Outdoor Podcast. You know, there's no way we could do this podcast without the incredible support of sponsors like Superior Hardwoods of Montana, home of the largest selection of in-stock, high-end wood products and flooring in the western United States. Let them guide you through the woods at superior-hardwoods.com. And of course, Rocky Mountain Truck and Trailer in Missoula, home of both snowplows and accessories, and Diamond C trailers and accessories. Go see them on the web at rmtte.com. We'd love to hear what you thought of this week's podcast. When you get a minute or two, shoot us an email and tell us your thoughts. Same goes if you have any questions for rigor or this week's guest. Just send your questions or comments to Downrigger at MontanaOutdoor.com. Hey, don't forget we should be dropping a new podcast this next Saturday. Until then, gang, we hope to see you soon out in Montana's great outdoors.