Corner Crossing Part 2! The Backcountry Hunters and Anglers Perspective.

This week on the Montana Outdoor Podcast your host Downrigger Dale continues his look at the issue of Corner Crossing in Montana. This time he talks with the President and CEO of Backcountry Hunters & Anglers (BHA), Ryan “Cal” Callaghan. BHA is basically on the opposite side of Corner Crossing compared to Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks or at least as it relates to the court case that the two organizations are involved in. However, as Rigger put it, “When you listen to last week’s podcast and now this week’s podcast in a lot of ways both FWP and BHA are on the same side.” Watch or listen to this weeks and last week’s podcast and tell us what you think. Just like last week’s podcast, this week’s podcast is very interesting and we for sure would love to hear what you think and better yet make sure you get your comments into the Private Land/Public Wildlife (PL/PW) Advisory Committee and the FWP. Ryan at GHA is a VERY smart guy and gave some excellent comments and perspective in this week’s podcast so be sure and watch or listen and then tell Rigger if you think he needs to do another Corner Crossing Podcast down the road. Our hope is that this issue gets worked out so Landowners and Hunters keep a good relationship going that can get even better! 

Links:

• Click here to learn more about Back Country Hunters & Anglers.
• To watch last week’s podcast, click here or here to just listen.
• If you have any questions or comments for Ryan Callaghan, click here to send him an email.
• Of course, Rigger always loves to hear from you so feel free to email him anytime by clicking here.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome, welcome, welcome, everyone, to yet another edition of the Montana Outdoor Podcast. So glad to have all of you here to talk about everything you've always wanted to know about the great outdoors in Montana. Today we're going to continue our discussion about corner crossing. You may recall last week we had Christy Clark. She is the director of Montana Fish, Wildlife, and Parks. We had her on, uh, and she talked about Corner Crossing and kind of where FWP stood. And and really, we we talked uh a lot about just the fact that the PLPW was going to meet in Glasgow. They they met Monday and Tuesday on that. They wanted to get public comment. We talked a lot about the importance of all of you, and I mean all of you, getting your public comments in that no matter what side you're on of this issue, the more you get your thoughts known, the better it's gonna be. Because then hopefully solutions can be boiled out of that. You know, I I know uh often some of you get a little hot on issues, but if we keep our wits about us, be respectful to each other and and keep looking for solutions, I think we're gonna get this thing figured out, and we've got some great folks that are working on it, of course, FWP, but also my uh next guest with the backcountry hunters and anglers, and we're gonna hear all about their side of it. They're kind of on the the other side of the issue, though I hate to even say it that way, because really we just want a solution. So we're gonna get into that next.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

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SPEAKER_01 2:22

Thank you very much, Roger. Before we get into our topic, I want to welcome a couple groups that have been very important to our podcast, really important to all of us. One is our active military out there. We have active military that watch our podcast from bases, from um ships, even, and uh lately I heard some of them record it and take it on the airplanes with them. So we're honored that you spend some time when you get a little time off to uh watch this podcast. I know a lot of you that uh that work in the military are from Montana. That's a very proud thing we have here in our state. But most of all, we're just proud of you. We know that right now it's it's a little dangerous out there. So we're thinking about you, we're praying for you. We love you, and we miss you. So get home soon. And next, I wanted to welcome our veterans. We have so many great veterans that watch this podcast from all over Montana and really all around the world. So, welcome, veterans. Thank you so much for your service, including my daughter is a veteran. I I just can't thank you enough for what you've done for our country. Now, lastly, I want one more favor out of you, and that is to please subscribe, please like, share, do all that stuff. It really helps us out on YouTube and and all the other sites, 25 or so sites all around the world that air this podcast. So please do that. Of course, one way you can watch this podcast real easy. A lot of you go to our website a lot, MontanaOutdoor.com. You can watch the podcast right there too. So uh, in fact, uh this podcast will be coming out this Saturday. Uh actually might even drop a little sooner than Saturday, and there'll be an article on Saturday morning about it on MontanaOutdoor.com. All right, now let's get into the corner crossing issue. I'm so glad that this guest came and agreed to come on board with us because he's gonna give you some great insight on this issue and some great insight from a different perspective. You know, we got the FWP perspective, which tends to lean a little more. I I'm just gonna be honest with you, it tends to lean a little more towards the landowner type of type of thing, and that's because they they work with landowners a lot, which you know, they they've done a great job. I'm I'm gonna give them props here. They do a great job in helping get us hunters access onto private land. But now we get into corner crossing. That's where we're we're um say on public land, and we want to go to this next spot in public land right there on the corner, and there's private ground we're gonna cross over. Not gonna touch it, we're just gonna go over the top of it. Right now, that's considered trespassing in Montana. Uh, you may remember the the big case we had in Wyoming where they decided it wasn't illegal there. Different court circuit. So now it comes to here. Hopefully, this can get settled out of the courts, but may have to go to the courts, and that's kind of where it's looking to go. But we're gonna find out more. Cal Callahan, he is with the Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. He just popped up on your screen. Cal, thank you so much for uh coming on board here today and and uh talking about this very important issue. I guess first, Cal, let's learn a little bit more about you and about backcountry hunters and anglers. So talk a bit about where you're from and and uh a bit about your organization.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Well, first Dale, I finally get to say longtime listener, first time uh participant, I guess. So uh thank you. I did a lot of growing up in Missoula and all through uh college, we were listening to Montana Outdoor Radio, and um I was just discussing with a buddy of mine. It used to be for our group anyway, the only place that you could ever get ice fishing updates.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Yeah, still kind of is. Uh, there's a few more places out there, but yeah, we do a lot of ice fishing reports, which is uh, hey, a lot of us go all year round doing stuff outdoors.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Yeah, no, so it's been an awesome resource. So I'm I'm super happy to be here and thanks for having me. But um yeah, so Ryan Callahan, uh you know, uh to do the Montana thing these days, uh my family's been in the state forever. I was born over in Billings, went to school in in uh Missoula, did most of my growing up in in Missoula, and that's how the the big families all split up. So eastern Montana family and a western Montana side of the family. And uh now I'm over here in uh Belgrade, Montana, right out right outside of Bos Angeles. And um I have done all the kind of Montana kid things, right? I um tried to do some schooling at the University of Montana, dropped out because I had an awesome bird dog, was probably listening to your show too much, too, too distracted, and um had uh started guiding um fly fishing and hunting and did that for about uh 10 years full time and really all all across North America. Um and then was in you know what you'd call like the outdoor industry and started working uh for this first clothing brand called First Light based in Ketchum Idaho. So I left the state um for you know, we'll just call it a decade as the I was the first employee for the clothing company First Light. And while I was there, um we had all this big public land sell-off stuff going on, and I had the you know, the keys to the to the whole social media accounts and and did all the marketing for that brand and started weighing in as the brand on the fact that we need to keep public land and public access if we want to preserve hunting for the vast majority of Americans and certainly Western elk hunters, which is like our our number one market at the time. And that really put a big spotlight on this little tiny brand, and it elevated us um right up there with with the the really big brand. And it's kind of been um punching above our weight class brand ever since. And then uh I went over to work with Steven Ranella at Meat Eater. Uh, I was the VP of conservation there, so doing a lot of the same things, using those brand voices to uh at times lobby in DC and at the state level, and again, make sure that we have healthy habitat, um, public land, public access, and like we talked about off-air, but something that we should talk about all the time, um, the need for uh this stewardship ethos to be indoctrinated in every single person, um, because responsible use has got to go with access every single time because we can love these places to death. And um I was volunteering a lot and working with backcountry hunters and anglers, which is a North American nonprofit in the hook and bullet space, and it's a chapter member organization, so we have about 44 active chapters across the US, and our um North American headquarters is actually in Missoula. So I about six months ago I became the president and CEO of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. And uh, for folks who have been following that organization, um it was you know the hottest thing since sliced bread. Um we'll just call it about a decade ago. Membership was going through the roof over um our involvement in the public land sell-off fight, pushing back against the idea that public lands aren't valuable, wilderness isn't valuable, uh, we need to divest it, sell it, trade it off. And uh that's how BHA really got into center stage. And then uh since then, um we've gone through some leadership changes over about the last five years. And I'm actually the the third CEO in in the last five years, and I gotta tell you, I my whole life I've had jobs that people point to and look at and say, Oh man, you're so lucky. That's such a fun job. Um I'm so jealous, and this is the best job I've ever had in my life. And um it's just there there's nothing more pure than public lands, public water, public wildlife, access to those things, and um working to instill this sense of ownership in those things and responsible use and and having a hand in making sure this stuff is around in perpetuity, not just for this administration or the next administration, but um I like to say that our if BHA was a for-profit organization, our number one output would be creating leaders in conservation. Because what this organization does, um, and it's a tricky job as CEO, is we empower volunteers to advocate. So getting them to use their individual voices and individual backgrounds, and it doesn't matter if you're a college dropout like me, or uh an MIT grad, or a plumber, a doctor, a lawyer, whatever it is across the uh socioeconomic or political spectrum, your voice matters. These are your public lands, public water, public wildlife, and you need to weigh in, just just like you said. Like the PLPW committee was meeting, there's public comment available there. Make the time, listen in, and make sure your voice is heard. That's part of our process that we have that we're so fortunate to have. And I'm proud to say that we create those individuals at every level. And um, we provide opportunities to do real hands-on stewardship as well. Um largely we do like fence removal on Bureau of Land Management, lands, um, some juniper removal, uh, trail improvements. And um, it's actually just getting announced. Well, it may have been yesterday or today, but um, BHA is another organization that uh people think is much larger than it is. We punch way above our weight class. Um, but we just got uh the Bureau of Land Management's conservation partner of the year for our work on um fence removal in migration corridors. Nice, congratulations. And um we get we get volunteers out there on the landscape to interact with uh Bureau of Land Management professionals, professionals, state agency professionals, and they get it get their hands dirty and and make a big impact outside of impact on their public lands. And what we want to do is instill that feeling of pride in ownership, and with pride in ownership comes real stewardship. And as you know, um we need our state agencies to be the the most respected and the the de facto source because um without them on the landscape, um we see degradation of our resources, and um so I'm very proud to work hand in hand with state agencies all across North America and get the end user interacting with those state agencies in um really positive ways. Um now the tricky part is uh we are volunteer led. I see our employee base as highly motivated and professional, but we're we're there to support our members and make sure that they can uh make that outsized impact. And it's it's a different model than a lot of other member organizations where it's like, hey, you guys give us the money, we'll go make the the change. I want to make sure that uh Downrigger Dale gets his time in front of the Fish and Wildlife Committee or Congress or the Senate, and you get to give your story and why these places matter, and the ripple effects of that are are huge. So um, but those are passionate people, right? And they come to us because they're like, man, I want, I don't want to just raise money at banquets, I want to do the work.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Yeah and well, uh I'll tell you, your your members are passionate, uh, because uh right after I did the interview with Christy Clark, um, I got some very heated emails from some of uh the folks that are members of yours, which you know is great. I'm glad they're they're passionate. Some of them got a little uh a little testy and personal, but uh, you know, uh my my goal has always been that uh on issues like this, and typically this this podcast is more talking about hey, giving you some great fishing tips and hunting tips and things like that. Uh, we don't get uh into controversial stuff a lot, and so um my goal has always been hey, just let both, you know, each side talk uh and then let the people decide. Uh and that's the way I've always been. Uh I I don't like doing the the gotcha stuff or any of that. And and so anyway, uh when I had Christy Clark on, one of the things that she said is she said, you know, that this has been a very divisive issue because we're talking about two major cornerstones of Montana um society, really. And that is uh our public access, which is something that is extremely important to most every Montana, for sure. Uh every uh person that loves to hunt and fish in Montana. Access, we gotta have it. Then uh the the second thing is uh we're talking about our rights as landowners. And uh growing up on a cattle ranch, I you know my dad was was very adamant about who got to to hunt on his land. He used to be very open to it. Then one of our prize bulls got shot uh by a hunter.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

And and that's a that's a big chunk of cash and a giant inconvenience, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

And so growing up in a small town, um, people are like, hey, how come we can't hunt on your land? It's like, hey, you gotta talk to my old man. I'm working on him. Oh yeah. And he eventually did lighten up a little bit on it. But you know, our our our uh our pride of uh being a landowner and having our rights to that, that's super important. So we got these really important, passionate issues. What would you say, Cal, are your what would be the reasons you think people have gotten so hot on this issue?

SPEAKER_02 19:10

Language matters, Dale, and um and and uh you know repeatedly saying that this is a contentious issue and it's divisive only creates contention and divisiveness. Um as you said, and and I'll take it much further, right? Like this whole country, private property rights, the available the ability for the rank and file individual, not the nobility, to have the the right to private property and and to exclude someone from that property is fundamental to the United States of America. Now we don't yeah, at the same time, forever access to public resources have gone hand in hand with that. So I think it's it's you're not approaching it. It's very easy to get in too deep on these issues in you know the the echo chamber or whatever you want to talk about. Um we need to step back and look at what this is and understand that private property rights and public access to public resources have gone hand in hand in America since America started. We've been making it work, yes, for the most part, we've been making it work for a long time. And can it be hard and inconvenient? Yes, but by God, it is the American way, and we're and we're doing it, and I don't want to see that go away. So when we look at something, um I mean, look at every single fishing access site in the state of Montana. It is bordered by private property. That is a relatively small public corridor to a public resource that is bordered by private property. Glacier National Park, Bob Marshall Wilderness Area, huge chunks of public access bordered by private property with private inholdings within public.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Within there, yeah. True.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

The the examples are endless to how we have made this work. Now, I think in Montana specifically, you and I can talk about that as uh pretty informed people just growing up here, right? Um I'll tell you that the demographics have changed for resident and non resident, as as hunters in general across North America. Um, that we don't have, I mean, if you went back. The 1940s, and you drew five hunters out of a hat, I would say four out of the five hunters have a direct relationship to somebody in agriculture.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

An agricultural producer.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

I'd say that's probably accurate for sure.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

And I don't I can't say that now. I don't think that's accurate now. If you were to pull four four hunters out of a out of a hat, they're gonna have uh a first within the family connection to agriculture, or maybe even a secondary one. So there's real education that needs to be done on just the basics, like what the agricultural calendar looks like. Um, you know, why the hell are Hanelope spooked to Helen Gone that in that mid-October range? Well, it's because we're rounding up cattle and we're getting them off to market, right? And it's like there's things here that are very beneficial to the producer and the hunter, but we're not doing a very good job of talking to each other right now. And we got to build this community, right? And right what the agricultural community needs to understand is, and and hunters need to understand too, excuse me, is we are in need, dire need of intact landscapes. So we need these big producers to be on the landscape. We don't need those family places to be fragmented. Um, we want working producers on the landscape. It's better for um all sorts of wildlife connectivity and biodiversity. Um, it literally creates healthy, huntable wildlife populations.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

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SPEAKER_02 26:16

So I I think that this is more of a bell curve situation when we talk about contentious issues where we have a tail on the the far on one far side that doesn't give a damn about most things, including private property rights. They just care about what they want when they want it. And then you have a tail on the other side that um really does want to exclude for their own personal benefit. Um, and that can be cloaked in a lot of um different little sales pitches. In the middle, you have a lot of people who are in this lifestyle of being outside, creating food for America. Um they're not opposed to uh the public knocking on their door and hunting on their property so long as they know that they respect that place and they can see how much work goes into creating a healthy grazing property or uh you know whatever ag they're involved in, right? Uh row crop agriculture or or just hay alfalfa, right? Um and you say, Oh my gosh, this is a gorgeous place. I can't believe you're letting me hunt here. Thank you so much. That goes a long, long, long way. Absolutely. And then you stack on the fact that you know how to open and close gates, you know where to park and where not to park, you know what a muddy road uh can be in terms of cost in time and diesel fuel to repair it. And you know about noxious weeds. Um my god, we got a lot of stuff that we agree on. And then um you also throw in the fact that that most folks just love being outside and you want to be left alone while you're doing it. Um that can be said of our agricultural producers as well as our our our hunters, right? And this corner crossing situation here in Montana forever has just not been defined. And it's kind of become a little bit of a political football here, where um recently the the state has tried to get rid of the gray area and say, oh, it's illegal. Well, we've had a hundred years of people accessing public ground, and it's at this point the corner locked the places that are accessible through the corner is about 871,000 acres in the state of Montana that is used, and people not myself, because uh uh being involved in in uh a place of notoriety and spotlight, I didn't want to be involved in anything contentious, and I don't don't want to be hassled. Um is uh I I didn't corner cross, have not corner crossed, but there's plenty of people who do, and there's plenty of landowners who do not care so long as they are not bothered. Exactly. Absolutely, and the hunter doesn't want to be bothered. So unfortunately, we're at a spot now where the last thing that we wanted was to have a bunch of notoriety on this subject, and you know, the the story of Wyoming, you have uh absentee uh, you know, recreational landowner um calling in from Florida, harassing the game warden, trying to get the game warden to cite these legal access hunters. He refuses to do it. So he harasses the sheriff, the sheriff refuses to do it, so he harasses the county attorney. So the county attorney eventually says, okay, they retroactively issue citations to these hunters, um and all of a sudden, four years later, the Supreme Court of the United States looks at that case and says, the lower court standing, the lower courts ruled appropriately, it has standing, we don't need to review this.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

You know, one of the things that that that I have found in in my long life is that when when it ends when something ends up going to court, usually the outcome is not favorable to either side. You know, and and you you it's not a guarantee. Right. You ultimately end up saying, yeah, you know, we should have just tried to work this out. Uh and I and you have made a lot of sense on the things that you're talking about today. Uh, because I again I think just like you were saying, words matter. I think if we if we tone this down a little and say, wait a minute, this really doesn't need to be a divisive or contentious issue at all. I mean, really, landowner and hunter have been working this stuff out for a long time, and I think we still can. But I also agree with you that I think the the the demographic and the the the the typical hunter and the typical landowner, especially in Montana, is a little different now. I got into a discussion a while back uh about uh the fact that we do have way more these days uh absentee owners in Montana. Uh and some people that aren't even absentee owners that say moved up here. And I'm just gonna use an example. Let's say you moved up here from from uh Los Angeles, and you you bought your first ranch ever, and you found a place that says, Hey, this is this is safer, it's better, it's a better quality of life. And this is where you've been watching that Yellowstone TV show a lot, yeah, and you've been watching that Yellowstone TV show, so then all of a sudden you're getting these knocks on the door of people saying, Hey, I want to use your land. Well, you're not used to that. Well, whoever does that, you're from an area where neighbors hardly ever talk to each other, and so right away you're on the defensive. Also, we have a lot of new hunters that have moved in here and are learning to hunt and all that, and they're not used to how you interact, and they're not used to, as you pointed out, very well of what a farmer and rancher actually does. And so I really think uh the education side of it uh for both sides could really help a lot of you know getting people together to say, hey, um, we can work this out. Here's here's some ideas, here's how it goes. I think um the other thing we can probably push a little harder is that look, if if you force this to go to a court or whatever, nobody's gonna be happy with it. Let's work this out. I guarantee you we can find a way for you, Mr. Landowner or Miss Miss Landowner, to to uh have a way to know who's crossing your land, but still allow those hunters and that to get across to go to that public land that is theirs, by the way. Uh so I think we can do this. Uh, and I really hope that organizations like yours can can be that great educator to come in and say, slow down a bit. Here's how we can do this. Um, how how many members does uh backcountry hunters and anglers have now?

SPEAKER_02 34:53

You know, I think within the state of Montana, we're 3,500, I think. Um and and nationwide, how many do you have? You know, nationwide we're only about 30,000. In fact. What we would call active members, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:09

But but they're all passionate about the outdoors and and love to hunt and fish, I would assume. Obviously, given the name, why would you why would you belong to it otherwise?

SPEAKER_02 35:18

Yeah, they're not landless people either, right? These are people all across the political spectrum, and there's plenty of landowners within our membership as well. And there's plenty of outfitters, and there's plenty of people in extractive industry, and you know, and certainly what I would say to uh our our members who unfortunately called you a little too heated, uh, is we got to remember that the landowner on the other side of barbed wire fence is a public landowner too. They have the same rights to that public land as we do, the public wildlife as we do, and the public water as we do. And we're all gonna get a heck of a lot further down the road if we're at the same table talking about this stuff because we have a vested interest in the same things. And to go back to that Fred Eshelman example, can people just imagine how different it would be had he said, you know what? How about you fellas from Missouri park on my private property? You don't have permission to hunt on it, you only have permission to step on that public land and keep going, only on public land, but my fear is that you guys parking on the county road and accessing the corner today is gonna grow into 30 trucks public parking on the public road, right? And what do hunters not want to see? Yeah, 30 trucks parked at the same spot, absolutely, right? And the landowners don't want to see it either. Um there is we're all talking about the same things, we all have the same fears. And again, the people that are the most vocal talking about this stuff are just in it too deep, and they're thinking about the the tiny things and the what ifs. We need to zoom back out and talk about the practical application here, which is moving from public land to public land without stepping on private property. And right, everybody just goes about their day.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

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SPEAKER_02 40:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

And uh and so I'm looking there and I see this uh this ad for this property and says uh X number of acres bordering public land. Uh when you buy this, you will have all this public land that in in essence will be yours. And I thought, no, why the hell do you have to say it that way? Because you're you're you're creating a an assumption here, and and especially for somebody that may not know a lot about it, that's retiring and moving up here. Now they kind of think that's what they got. And you know, that there could have been a way better way of doing that. And so for a realtor to say, hey, this border's public land, so one of the things need to let you know is you will have a bit of a responsibility too to make sure that that you can get with hunters and and work out a a way to to to access that. I mean, wouldn't that have been a lot easier than saying these these little things? So again, I think if we start looking at this a whole different way, and and one of the things that that I really wish would happen with a lot of say landowners is go hunting with the hunters for a day and just see what they do, and vice versa, you hunters, let's go out and work the fields with the landowner a little bit. And I think what once we get renew that respect for each other, I think this is not even gonna be a an issue.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

So we have so many examples of it not being an issue. Um at this at the same time, um I feel it every single day. And and I I'm you know, I've had a long spoiled life uh running around on public lands, way more than most people ever dream of, between work and and you know, putting putting life aside. I I just had uh my first child here at 43. I told you he's he's 11 days old now. Um congratulations. Uh to prioritize spending time outside, and it's primarily been on public land. Now, you know, being from the state, I I have family all over in agriculture and and um and and often have the choice of hunting with exclusive access to private land. Um but um be it on the private side or the public side, I I do see bad behavior. Um, and you know, our game wardens can fill you in on this uh more than I can, but interviewing landowners across the state by far and away, the bad behavior comes from people who genuinely do not know. They just don't have a clue. So we need to crank up that education and get it in front of them wherever they are. And one thing that I would dearly love to move the needle on with Montana Fish, Wildlife, and Parks is the fact that we have great education resources, but we don't require anybody to actually use them. So With the exception of the um uh safety bear identification. Well, no, Neil, because um, or you do you prefer downrigger?

SPEAKER_01 44:11

Uh either one's fine. Most people call me rigor, it's just over the years. That's what I ended up. People changed my name whether I wanted to or not.

SPEAKER_02 44:19

Well, yeah, we don't have control over the nicknames, do we? That's right. But uh you can go online, state of Texas, get done with hunter safety in 20 minutes, come back to Montana's website, click the affidavit thing, and and you're a licensed hunter in the state of Montana. You don't have to participate in hunter education. True. And it doesn't matter if you're 10 years old or 110 years old. So, um, and it's not just the kids making the mistakes. I'll promise you that.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

Um, well, that's that's what I liked about the FWP's program of it's up to us. I was very encouraged by that. Of okay, yeah, yeah, now this is a good idea. You're talking all about access and how to get that access and how to interact and all that. So, are you kind of saying maybe that actually should be a class?

SPEAKER_02 45:13

Maybe that should be a requirement, even if we created a 10-minute curriculum on that agricultural calendar and where to park, where not to park, a little bit of noxious weeds just for me, um, and uh how to open and close gates, and um and that was the you had to complete that course. And if it were up to me, I'd make it for residents and non-residents. Uh absolutely great idea. You got to complete it once a year to access the block management material or or purchase your conservation license.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

Um, there you go. I've just I think we're gonna see that might be something that you just have to watch that video, certify you did it before you get your conservation license. To me, you know, and maybe you got to do it every year or every other year or something, you know.

SPEAKER_02 46:08

You know, hunters, anglers, everybody likes to gripe, right? But we also know how amazing the opportunities in this state are and taking 10 minutes, yeah, taking 10 minutes and creating some goodwill with with our ag community and and hopefully moving the needle on good behavior is absolutely worth it. Not a bad idea at all. I I like that. I like that. And you know, it it we're not the reality is we will never have enough game wardens on the landscape to enforce the rules and regulations, nor how have we ever in the history of hunting, right? Um, we used to just convert all the poachers into wardens, right? And that that was the give the fox the keys to the name.

unknown 47:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:07

Think about that poor guy. My god.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

But it was that um responsible use stewardship ethos, that respect for the regulations, the understanding that hunting is a responsibility sport. And if we want to go up uh to Georgetown or wherever and drill a hole through the ice and and find that big old brook trout, um we have to do it in a responsible way, or it's not gonna be there next year, right? And it's certainly not gonna be here for for our kids, a little nipper there screaming in the background. Um and that takes a social buy-in, right? We can't just say, oh, the state will fix it, the feds will fix it, the game wardens will fix it. That's just not realistic, right? We need we need to, just as we have for a hundred plus years, regulate ourselves and understand that this is also our responsibility, making sure that that folks who are out there representing as hunters and and anglers are doing the right things.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

Well, I've kept it here uh a a long time, but I I want to finish it with uh and I and I ask uh Christy Christy the same thing. Uh if you know where do you see this going then, you know, to to to solve this and and so we can you know move on from it and say, okay, I I think we got a good working idea to to to get this going. Uh if you had a magic wand and and or or you were the king of Montana for for a for a for a day, what where do you see this solution being? What what would be your idea to to make this move in the right direction?

SPEAKER_02 48:56

Well, I mean, you're exactly right in the fact that a lawsuit is net is never and should never be uh the first thing that you go to, right? And and you just got a time that it was absolutely not um and certainly not anything that I wanted to be involved with in uh six months on the job here, right? Um I was adamant that this was not going to happen. Uh unfortunately, we had the conversations and and was was told verbatim that there was no wivel room on this subject. So we were at an impasse. So um there's the possibility that this lawsuit runs its course and we get uh the result, whatever that result may be. I I firmly believe if we run this thing all the way out, uh we're gonna have defined public access via the corner from public land to public land. Um the other thing is because I and we are so confident, um the players get their butts to the table, and we figure this out legislatively, and in good old Montana fashion, we have a concrete, durable solution written into law, eliminating that gray area, enforcing, preserving, reinforcing private property law, and guaranteeing public access to public land. Right?

SPEAKER_01 50:41

Um Do you think there's a possibility of creating uh uh a scenario ever of sitting down and saying, let's let's reapproach this question again? There's gotta be some wiggle room, gang. Uh because if there isn't, then somebody's gonna create it. You know, a guy in a black robe is gonna create some wiggle room. So why don't you and I just get it fixed? Do you think there is a way to create some of that wiggle room you're looking for?

SPEAKER_02 51:18

I don't think there's been a law created ever that didn't require that, Dale. So I I absolutely there's absolutely there is.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

Yeah, because I I think if if you if you and FWP or the other players involved got in there and put that together, what would be awesome is for you then as a group on both sides going into the legislature and saying, now codify this, let's get it into law. We we've agreed, this looks good, let's get it done. Do you think there's a way to do that or no? Oh, I I I know there is.

SPEAKER_02 51:53

I I absolutely know there is, and and the membership of backcountry hunters and anglers, like I said, they're they're passionate about a lot of things. Access is one of them. It would be a bedrock uh principle of the organization, Public Land Water Access Association, um, a really fantastic group here in the state of Montana. Um, I would say undersung heroes in in a lot of places, just because they're they're not as well known. Um, but they are dogged fighters for access and and just keeping legal access, which uh, you know, as we talked about, like a lot of the ownership turnover in the state of Montana, um, there's a lot of assumptions being made on what access is or is not um provided by the state. Stream access is something that we gotta defend all the time as our public easements. Um, and PLWA does an absolute fantastic job with that. But when we saw the escalation of language implying that corner crossing is in fact illegal in the state of Montana, um we had to act because every season is some kids first and an old dog's last. Uh that's the thing I keep telling myself, right? The value is invaluable, right? We can't sacrifice one for the hope that we're gonna figure something out down the road. And just like we saw with stream access in the state of Montana, it it took a lawsuit to get people to the table and figure this stuff out, uh right.

SPEAKER_01 53:48

And sometimes that's that that's where it actually can be a useful tool uh of getting people to the table. Is it's a way to force everyone to the table. And uh so I guess here I and I appreciate your your guys' passion and the fact that I think you've got some great ideas, just great ideas. So my hope is that you know, one that people can not always look at FWP as oh, they're the bad guys and they're trying to take all our stuff away because they're not, they have no motivation to do that. On the other side, just because somebody wants to codify uh something into law to make sure it's right, doesn't mean they're out of line either. So um I think there's a way to do this, and I I I want to thank you and your organization for for standing up and saying here's what we believe, because that's how stuff starts to move the needle. So I appreciate that. And I really hope uh that both uh FWP and uh backcountry uh uh hunters and anglers will will be able to come together on this and be able to hopefully walk into the legislature and say, we got it, gang, we got it handled. Now get this codified into law so we we don't have to have this argument again. Uh so that's my hope, but um time will tell.

SPEAKER_02 55:19

Dale, I got I got three really quick things here. First, okay, I am a Montana kid, I love Montana fish, wildlife, and parks. I have enormous respect for every employee within that agency, and they they bust their butts. Um and if you're listening, I I appreciate you so much. Um, and I I love having you on the landscape. Um our organization, BHA, is actually working with Montana Fish, Wildlife, and Parks on another lawsuit um uh against a group that um would like to eliminate a lot of the elk in the state. Um so I don't want people to these lawsuits happen all the time with state agencies when you get to a situation where there is an impasse, um, and you just need to have enough conversations on the front end to come to the determination that there is no other path forward. And and right that's what we've done. Um second thing is uh corner crossing is not a perfect thing. We keep hearing about problem corners, and I want people uh listening to this program to know that problem corners do exist, which would be an unmarked corner, a uh improperly placed pin, so a corner that's not at the actual location, or a uh corner that uh you just cannot step across without going onto private property. Those are would all be examples of uh problem corners. Uh everybody references these. To my knowledge, backcountry hunters and anglers, backcountryhunters.org uh is the only place that has a mechanism for identifying those problem corners. Um, you can go to our website, it's an ARCIS, so you just punch in your lap long of where that problem corner is, and then we can follow up with you. That's awesome. Yeah. If if necessary, with the necessary agencies, we'll provide the volunteer hours to come out and augment that fence for public access and make it wildlife friendly at no cost to the landowner. You additionally get to uh go rub shoulders, and we typically have some wild food and maybe a cold pop at the end, um, with awesome representatives of the hunting community that absolutely steward and respect both private and public land. Um, so there's an added benefit there. And then um at the top of your show, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it um talking about our active duty and retired military. Um, one of the things that I helped form um when I was just a volunteer, and I still am a volunteer in a lot of ways for backcountry hunters and anglers was our um Armed Forces Initiative, which is uh oftentimes through uh the rec department or program on our bases throughout the world. Um we have volunteers in our Backcountry Hunters and Anglers Armed Forces initiative that will help new people to base understand the hunting opportunities, fishing opportunities that exist on base or adjacent to base. And then uh we also provide stewardship opportunities to uh go get your fingers dirty and uh do the things that we do oyster bed restoration, um, you know, waterkeeper work, um fence poles, habitat work, um, the list goes on and on. And then we'll also do educational opportunities for those service members. Uh, because we heard a lot of stories about uh young, young, uh enlisted folks who go out and cause a bunch of trouble. And they say, Well, I didn't even know there were any other options. So we want to make sure that folks know that those options do exist. And wherever you're stationed, there's hunting and angling opportunities out there. And um there's a lot of folks, too, who get back from uh their service positions and uh need a little direction, but they don't necessarily think that those fun opportunities that that are out there and the fishing trips and the hunting trips are uh for them. So they appreciate the opportunity to go uh provide more service by busting their butt, uh, creating habitat or access uh for the American people. Because these these people, um they man, they my heart goes out to them. They do a fantastic job, and um they they need options for support.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:42

So I appreciate that very much. As a father of a disabled veteran, uh that that is uh means a lot to me, and thank you for that. That's that's very important. Uh I can't uh thank you enough because uh for what they do, uh I've seen it firsthand. It's uh it's tough, tough work, and it's it leaves the mark for a long, long time.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:06

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, we're in this age of like these extended deployments again. Um and we just I I because I'm in contact with them all the time, we just had a bunch of folks finally get back from a very long and and extended deployment and in some places that I sure wouldn't consider fun. So they're they're fishing bluegills and doing all sorts of cool things right now. And it's well earned.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

Yeah, one of these days, uh one of my goals is is to uh, you know, we always talk about you know that the entertainers will go to the uh the bases around uh and and entertain the the active duty, and and I would love to someday set up a deal where we could do wild game cookouts for active duty members and bases around the world just to give them bring that taste home to them, you know. So let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:00

Yeah, we call that venison diplomacy on the B. There you go. Thanks.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:04

Yeah, exactly. I would love to do that uh because we have so many great uh viewers and listeners. But hey, thank you so much for your time. This is this has been wonderful. Uh uh love the organization, love what you're trying to do, and uh uh thank you for bringing the the other perspective into this because really it's I don't even think it's the other perspective. It it's it is what it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:29

Everything's contentious if we want to make it, nothing has to be if if we don't. Um, and then the last thing I'll say, besides thank you so much for for having me, Dale, is to my BHA members. And I hope there's listeners out there that become BHA members because uh membership is the thing that makes us independent um and makes us uh impregnative. Nobody's gonna mess with us if we have a large membership, right? Um because we're there to elevate your voices. But um my BHA members, you be nice to Dale, you be nice to everybody. Language matters. You bring the facts first and you focus on the policy, not the politics.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:17

Yeah. Yeah, I hear you. Well, and that's part of that goes along with the job. So I'm I'm a big boy, I can handle it, but I do appreciate that. Sometimes it's people they're they let their passions get ahead of their minds sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:29

But that's what it is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:32

Well, we'll uh uh in the podcast description, gang, uh you'll find a link to Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, and that way you can uh click on that link and go learn all about this organization and what they do and all that. And uh I I uh encourage you to do so. I think uh that that'll give you uh just some some great resources that you didn't know you had. So check that uh out. And of course, as always, uh there's lots of links uh to uh uh things that uh we do as we go along for reminding you about hunting deadlines and things like that and regulation changes that are coming up and things like that. So yeah, we try to be a good resource for you out there, and uh, but you got to find that little podcast description usually on YouTube and that you'll see it where it says more. If you click on that, it'll expand, you'll see all that stuff. So, anyway, there it is. Uh well, um, Cal, thank you so much. I appreciate everything that uh you had to say today, and don't be a stranger, let's get you back here.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:32

Let's let's make it happen, Dale. Thank you. I'd still keep keep talking to you, but I got an 11-day old that I'm gonna take on his first mushroom hunt here. So fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:43

All right, dad. Go be the dad. Take care. All right. Well, there you have it, gang. Uh that that gives you another uh perspective on it, and I think we've we've really given you a lot of great information. Now we all get together and make it right. That's what we do here. Uh, we've got lots more coming up, some really interesting stuff from the State Parks Foundation. They've got uh a couple new state park things they're working on that uh we're gonna feature on the podcast here coming up. Uh, plus um we've got the the lot of information that you folks had emailed me about on the uh there was some warnings about consumption of fish in Montana. And I just uh recorded a podcast that'll be out soon with the uh Health and Human Services, the DEQ, and the FWP. Uh and we cleared up all that. And I think you're gonna be very happy with that podcast because you'll be able to eat a lot of fish. You're gonna be okay. But it's an important one to watch. So that's out there too. But we sure answered a lot of your questions. People freaked out a little on that one. So there you go. We'll talk to you soon. Until we meet again, gang. Uh, be safe out there and be good to each other. We'll see you next time here on the Montana Outdoor Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:02

Thanks for watching the Montana Outdoor Podcast. You know, there's no way we could do this podcast without the incredible support of sponsors like Superior Hardwoods of Montana, home of the largest selection of in-stock, high-end wood products and flooring in the western United States. Let them guide you through the woods at superior-hardwoods.com. And of course, Rocky Mountain Truck and Trailer in Missoula, home of all snow clouds and accessories, and Diamond Sea trailers and accessories. Go see them on the web at rmtc.com. We'd love to hear what you thought of this week's podcast. When you get a minute or two, shoot us an email and tell us your thoughts. Same goes if you have any questions for Rigger or this week's guest. Just send your questions or comments to downrigger at MontanaOutdoor.com. Hey, don't forget we should be dropping a new podcast this next Saturday. Until then, gang, we hope to see you soon out in Montana's great outdoors.