How I Learned to Love Shrimp

Aaron Ross on how to stay motivated and keep fighting for animals for 20+ years

• Amy Odene & James Ozden

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Aaron Ross has spent over 20 years working for farmed animals. His relentless dedication to this cause has seen him co-found two major organisations, The Humane League and the Open Wing Alliance and train and advise countless others around the world on corporate relations and movement strategy.

In this episode, we talk through an important topic, longevity, and discuss the advantages and pitfalls of this long-term dedication to this long-term fight. Aaron offers practical advice for those wanting to dedicate their career to helping animals and why staying involved over the long-term has immeasurable advantages.

We’ve really enjoyed delving into a topic that touches less on the organisation goals and more on personal experiences of a deep topic so if you or anyone you know would like to come on to talk about a different area in this same vein, please let us know.  

Relevant links to things mentioned throughout the show:

If you enjoy the show, please leave a rating and review us - we would really appreciate it! Likewise, feel free to share it with anyone who you think might enjoy it. You can send us feedback and guest recommendations via Twitter or email us at hello@howilearnedtoloveshrimp.com. Enjoy!


00:00

Aaron


Eventually, I did start to see the writing on the wall that there were much bigger systems in place, that just smashing things is just not going to change. These industries, like factory farming, are just so enormous. It was like a mosquito on an elephant. Like the stuff that we were doing; smashing a window is not going to stop factory farming. And that became very clear to me. 


00:31

Amy


Right. 


00:32

Aaron


So I started thinking about how this is going to be a long - I remember writing a letter to a colleague of mine back then about the shift of my thinking about how this is going to be a long term fight. And we need to think about ways that we can improve the experience of animals who are trapped in these systems while we're working to end those systems who keep them trapped. And that's where I really got into the welfare theory, and that's what started attracting me towards that camp. 


01:19

Amy


Hi, my name is Amy. 


01:21

James


And my name is James. 


01:22

Amy


And this is ‘How I Learned to Love Shrimp’, a podcast about promising ways to help animals and build the animal advocacy movement. What are the benefits of working in the movement, long term? Can longevity impact the success of the movement? If you've been wondering about your own career's trajectory, then this episode is definitely for you. We spoke with Aaron Ross, who's been working in this space for over 20 years and so is in prime position to talk about longevity and its advantages, as well as some challenges we might encounter that could prevent us from holding out. 
We learn a bit about Aaron's background and how he's made his way from a grassroots activist to being vice president of policy and strategy for the Humane League with countless global corporate commitments under his belt, and the practical advice he has for dedicating your career to this fight. Also, an exciting news: in the coming months, we'll be releasing video versions of all of our episodes on YouTube and are looking forward to hearing what you think about seeing the episode, as well as hearing it. 


02:19

James


Today we are joined by Aaron Ross, who is vice president of policy and strategy at the Humane League. He's one of the founding members of the Humane League, co-founded their Open Wing Alliance, secured some of the first ever corporate caterpillar policies, and has trained hundreds of activists around the world. And he now trains and advises organisations on strategy. So, welcome Aaron. 


02:39

Aaron


Thank you. It's good to be here!


02:41

James


Thank you for joining. We're very excited for this conversation!


02:47

Amy


I've had the privilege of working with Aaron in the past, so it's always nice when the guest feels very familiar and we can get into a topic that I know they're particularly passionate about and have the experience to chat about. So, yeah, I'm interested for this one. 


03:01

Aaron


Yeah, James, it's our first time meeting, so I think that will be a nice mix. And I'm familiar with Amy, but, yeah, I haven't met you yet, so hopefully that should make for an interesting. Yes!


03:13

James


Yes! Well, your reputation receives you. I've heard lots about you, so it feels a bit unfair on my side because, yeah, you're kind of infamous, let's say [Laughing]. At least in the companies that we look at and are relevant for the space!



03:27

Aaron


Sure, yeah. [Laughing]


03:30

Amy


Great! Okay, so, opening question: who's someone in the movement that people might not know of, that you find particularly inspiring? 


03:38

Aaron


Well, some people might know of this person or people that I'm going to mention, but someone who - or people that I really look up to in the movement - would be Wu Hung and Yu Min from the group EAST in Taiwan. I really love them because they are super humble but super effective, and they exercise this patience. Like, they have such a long term view of their work so that they really keep that in mind at all times when they're designing their strategy and throughout all of their programs, they just keep in mind the long game. And I find that really refreshing and inspiring and they're just super friendly people and I love working with them; I love all the work that they do. 


04:28

James


I'll link to EAST below so people can follow their work, I agree. They're one of the few groups that are farm-animal-focused in Southeast Asia. I think they're very impressive. 

But speaking of the long game, I think we're very excited because you're here to talk to us about a topic that I think is near and dear to your heart and should be for many people, which is, I guess, stamina and longevity in animal activism and how to stay involved. And obviously, you've been in the movement over 20 years, and that's no small feat. So I guess, thank you for that. 
And I guess we're very curious to basically talk to you about how you've done this, techniques people can use, the benefits of doing so, and also how other people can basically copy this and hopefully stay engaged, because sadly, we have a long fight ahead of us. 

But I guess before we get into that big, juicy topic, how did you first get into animal rights activism? 


05:18

Aaron


Yeah, I got into animal rights - it was in high school, so it's a very long time ago; I graduated in 2001. But in high school, I learned about the treatment of animals, particularly farm animals. I think it was in 11th grade and we were learning about Asia, actually, in history class. And my teacher was telling the class, you know, in some cultures in Asia, they eat cats and dogs. That was something that we learned. And I remember the students freaked out and they were grossed out, you know. And at that time, I had eaten all types of animals. I was into really weird foods. Back at that time, I had eaten shark and snake and things like that. To me I was like, what's the big deal? And I was like, we eat all types of animals here; I don't see a big difference in that. 

But I had a dog at the time and I thought to myself, I was like: ‘Well, I wouldn't want anyone to eat my dog’. So that kind of bothered me. And I went home and I was just like, sitting with this and I was like: ‘I don't even know what to do with this information’. I decided just to type ‘vegetarian’ in the Google search. And this was like, very early days of the Internet. And I remember some UK website came up and it just talked about factory farming and explained what it was. It was just about the system. And it listed three major problems with factory farming, which was the mistreatment of animals, the destruction of the environment and how it's bad for people. And I had always known that animals were used and killed for food; that was obvious to me. I didn't know that it was that bad. And I was pretty shocked when I saw that website. But I was sold immediately. And the next day I went back to school and I went to lunch and I still had, like, a chicken sandwich, but it didn't feel right eating it after I knew that information. So I went vegetarian that night and didn't know what I was doing. I ate, like, rice and beans for a while. I eventually read some books and went to a conference. I was like: ‘This is what I want to focus my life on. I want to make a difference in this area.’ And I joined a social justice group around that time. It was getting into all types of different social justice issues. We were protesting the US invasion of Iraq back at the time. We were feeding the homeless in Baltimore City. We were also doing some animal rights work as well. But I felt like this was like a really neglected area and it was an area I was really passionate about and I thought I could make a difference in. So I actually dropped out of that group and spun off and started my own organisation in Baltimore that was just strictly focused on animal rights and, yeah, been involved ever since. 


08:36

Amy


Wow, I love hearing these origin stories from such a long time ago, where there isn't this sense of there being this established movement already and really being at the forefront of developing a movement that's gone on and grown and gone on to be a global shift. It's always so interesting to know how these people kind of got in and got started. So you've been with THL since day one, like, one of the founding members. Can you describe what working in animal advocacy was like back then? 


09:12

Aaron


Yeah, it was very different than it is today. So this was again, like, in the early 2000s. I'm from Baltimore, so I was just working in the US at the time. But the US movement at the time was very radicalised. There was a lot of ALF actions. Maybe for your listeners who aren't familiar, it's Animal Liberation Front. And there was a lot of property destruction, breaking into buildings, rescuing animals out of them, like very radical protests. And there was a big split in the movement back then between these two different camps of thought. One was this more radical ‘animal liberation theory’ -  all or nothing type of activism. And then there were what they called ‘Welfareists’, which were focused on making incremental, pragmatic improvements for animals. And these two different camps, they did not get along back then. They were just seen as totally separate, mutually exclusive; a lot of infighting between those two camps. 

And I'd say the biggest change that I see today is I don't see that divide so much anymore. I think it exists to a degree, but it's much more marginalised. And I think the movement has matured where I think the movement now sees these two different camps just complementary to each other. They work to each other's benefit, and the lines have blurred. And I got my start in the very radical wing of the movement. But once I started getting into some of the welfare programs, I launched a Cage Free Campaign in the early 2000s, around 2003. I saw a lot of potential in that, because you could marry these two ideas; you could take these really radical pressure tactics, and then you can marry them with these pragmatic welfare asks. And that was just incredibly effective. And we saw immediate results from that, because all the actions that were doing put a lot of pressure on whatever company we were targeting. But from the public's eye, they could sympathise with what we were asking, which was these incremental improvements. So we had the support of the public, and we also had the pressure tactics from the radical wing, and that just created this new path for animal rights, which was really exciting. I think that is where we are today. And I think there's a lot of groups that are using that combination. And to me, that's really exciting. And I'm really glad that we've moved past, for the most part, ‘welfare versus abolition’. We've moved on to ‘Let's just make progress together for animals where we can and use whatever tactics we can to make that happen’. 


12:24

James


I totally agree that obviously, well, things in the UK were different, and I'm obviously much newer to the movement, but even some years ago, I think this kind of more ‘radical versus welfare’ (whatever you want to call it) division was much starker. And I think, yeah, in the past couple of years, especially, things feel much better. And like you said, it's not either or, it's both. And that people hopefully now appreciate that these different approaches play, like you said, complementary roles in the movement. And I think also, if you look at other social issues, it's extremely rare that there's only one dominant theory of change. Usually people work together synergistically and, yeah, reducing infighting is probably one of the best things we can do. 
And we also spoke to Dave about this on our first episode, actually, and also, then David Coman-Hidy, and also him and Eva Hamer formerly from Direct Action Everywhere, gave a talk together about some of these topics and why, actually, there's benefits of different theories of change. So I would say we've come such a long way, which I think is amazing - the just cohesive and coherent movement. 


13:23

Aaron


I'd say the other biggest change that I've seen has been just this injection of funding. When I got my start in animal advocacy, there was virtually zero funding for animals. I worked on the issue just in my spare time. I had to keep a full time job while I was starting the Humane League and getting that off the ground for many years. I mean, for about a decade, I just had no money. My bank account was always in the negative. There was just no money for animals, particularly farm animals. The shift to farm animals, I'd say, started to happen around 2005, from my perspective, where groups started coming online that focused on farm animals; The Humane Society International developed their farm animal department; the Humane League was founded in 2005; there's groups like Began Outreach. I mean, there's just this shift that you could feel, like farm animals were becoming a focus, and that was, I think, heavily influenced by the Effective Altruism movement back then, because it became very obvious when once one started looking at the numbers, the degree of suffering, et cetera, that all just pointed to farm animals. And I know from myself and the colleagues I was working with at the Humane League in the early days: we were getting into Effective Altruism in the early two thousands, and that really helped shift our focus. And, yeah, I'm glad to see that has remained a focus today. And again, that's another big difference that I see today from back then. 


15:12

Amy


Was there anything in particular that sort of influenced your path? You were saying there was kind of these two camps. Was there something in particular that drove you to one camp over the other? I guess they are quite stark in terms of, maybe perhaps even the personality type that goes to one or the other, or the kind of the outlook on the long term theory of change for the movement. Was there something in particular that you feel like made you a good fit for one camp over the other? 


15:38

Aaron


I was very attracted to the radical animal liberation camp when I first got in. I mean, I was young; I come from a home that had a lot of abuse in it and a lot of very serious mental illness. My stepfather was very abusive, who I lived with. And I remember just like, when I first learned about the animal suffering in factory farms in high school, one of the things that really made me want to get involved and stand up for animals was I related to the animals that I saw suffering. I saw them, and I was like, I know what that feels like. I know what it feels like to be helpless, not to be able to do anything about it, and to feel that abuse. 

So there was like a personal element there for me that was very emotionally charged, that I think made me very attracted to the radical wing. It was like an outlet to get out that anger, that aggression. But I was also - like, you have to keep in mind, I was in high school; I was very young; I was extremely arrogant; I thought I could do anything, and it was invincible. And just like the radical wing was exciting. It was exhilarating. Like, we would go out and we would get arrested all the time. Yeah, break things. And that was just fun. It was almost like a - I like to equate it to a slot machine. We would just go out on the weekend, and you never knew what was going to happen. You didn't know if all of us were going to end up in jail for the weekend or if there were going to be fights at these protests or were we going to be breaking into some building that weekend. It was always just exciting and exhilarating. Eventually, I did start to see the writing on the wall, that there were much bigger systems in place, that just smashing things is just not going to change things. These industries, like factory farming, are just so enormous. It was like a mosquito on an elephant. Like, the stuff that we were doing, smashing a window, was not going to stop factory farming. And that became very clear to me. 


18:08

Amy


Right. 


18:08

Aaron


So I started thinking about how this is going to be a long - I remember writing a letter to a colleague of mine back then about the shift of my thinking about how this is going to be a long term fight. And we need to think about ways that we can improve the experience of animals who are trapped in these systems while we're working to end those systems who keep them trapped. And that's where I really got into the welfare theory, and that's what started attracting me towards that camp. 


18:45

James


I can definitely relate to the excitement because I guess from my time in Animal Rebellion, there was a period where we would just do more and more audacious things, such as we'd block four McDonald's distribution sites on the same day. And actually, the next day, there was like hundreds of stores that didn't get burgers. And were like: ‘wow, this is amazing! We need to do more of this. This feels so good.’ But then there's some weird thing where we're almost, like, addicted to the adrenaline of just doing big crazy things. And it's like we think of a cool target first and then retrofit why this is useful. Not, like, think of some good campaign and put it all together. You end up being driven by weird emotional things rather than: ‘Will this actually help animals most effectively?’

But, yeah. So I can definitely relate to that excitement and energy, even though it's not necessarily the most important thing to be doing. 


19:33

Aaron


Yeah, exactly. I mean, sometimes the most radical thing you can do is put on a suit and go meet with an executive. 


19:41

Amy


Yeah, I love that. And did you feel like the view - did it go from a kind of localised understanding of what was happening in Baltimore and how that was affecting you and what you were consuming, to this more kind of global understanding of, like: ‘Okay, this is happening everywhere, and I want to help on a global scale.’ Or did that kind of come later? 


20:01

Aaron


That came much later. I mean, as you know, the US is just absolutely enormous. So when I started my organisation in Baltimore, we were doing a lot of different campaigns. Like, we're doing anti-vivisection campaigns and anti-fur campaigns, protesting the circus every time they come to town, doing vegan outreach, stuff like that. Cage-free campaigns, too, back then. But there's another group up in Philadelphia, and they were doing very similar, like, the exact same campaigns; very similar style of activism. I would go up to Philly and support their campaigns, and they would come down to Baltimore and support ours. And eventually I was like: ‘You know since we're doing the same thing in different cities, we could potentially franchise this model and export this to all major cities in the US.’ And I pitched that to the group in Philly. They loved the idea, so we started doing that. And that's actually how we met David Coman-Hidy, who you had on your podcast. He was our first hire outside of Baltimore. In Philadelphia, we opened up the Humane League of Boston. And Dave applied for that position and was just obviously a great fit and we were very lucky to come across Dave. And then we started opening this franchise model, like, all across the US. And we were eventually in a dozen US cities, something like that, doing this. And then that was maybe up till around 2015, where we were doing that model city by city. 

But then we started tapping into the international animal rights community. We were going to international conferences back then. All the companies that we were working with at the time, or against, a lot of these were international companies. Like, we were campaigning against companies like Burger King and Starbucks back then. And I remember having a call with an activist in Mexico and doing very similar style activism to them. That is when it hit me. I was like: ‘We could go after these companies; there's no reason we couldn't go after these companies in other major markets.’ And we decided basically immediately to hire this activist who we met in Mexico. And we launched our first international campaign. And we started putting pressure on US companies that had operations in Mexico. And it just had such an immediate effect. I mean, the companies got so terrified. They just reacted so quickly to that international pressure. And then it just very quickly snowballed from there. I mean, that was in 2015. And immediately we opened the UK office. 
THL opened up in the UK, and then we opened up the Humane League in Japan. And then we're going to try that similar franchise model that we had in the US, but in different countries. But very quickly, we started meeting all these existing organisations around the world who were doing incredible work. They already had networks they already established; they understood the local cultures better than we ever could. And that was when we had this idea of, like, maybe we should just form a coalition between all these existing groups instead of trying to endlessly expand the Humane League throughout the universe. That was the formation of the Open Wing Alliance. 


23:48

James


Nice! And the rest is history. I feel like you could spend a whole number of episodes talking at length about Open Wing Alliance, but we'll have to save that for another day, because today, Aaron, we want to pick your brain on something that you feel - well, it's both very important, I guess most people would agree is important, but I think it's sometimes hard to actually operationalise in your life. And I guess that's actually longevity in the movement and how to stay engaged in activism long-term. So I guess just first of all, I'd be curious to hear from you: why do you think this longevity and stamina is so important for animal rights activists? 


24:22

Aaron


One, it's such an underrated topic, it just doesn't get discussed very much. And I've just noticed through my personal experience of being involved over two decades, you end up gaining this grander view of the movement and the history of the movement, and you get to see it through different stages. And I think that's just enormously beneficial because you get to recognize progress. The question that you asked me earlier in the podcast, Amy, about what was I seeing different in activism back then versus now? You also get to see what was different about society back then and the attitudes towards animals between then and now. It's just absolutely incredible. 

I remember when I first went vegan, I went to the grocery store, and over 20 years ago, you'd be lucky if you found soy milk in the grocery store. You might find these cardboard veggie burgers, Boca Burgers or something. And that was basically it. And now I just see you walk into a grocery store with these aisles full of vegetarian foods and natural products, and you have vegetarian meats in the animal meat section at the grocery store. It's like you see these pendulum shifts happening. And that gives you perspective, because activism can be very frustrating. Like, you're putting your heart and soul into everything you're doing. And change can be very slow, almost imperceptibly slow. But when you stay in the movement long-term, you get to see these shifts happening. You get to see the fruits of your labour. And I think that's just one benefit. 
But I think the reason that it's important for activists to stay in the movement long-term is because, as we were talking about earlier, this is a long term fight. We are up against enormous systems and industries and governments who oppose what we're doing, like literal empires are standing in the way between us and helping animals. So this is not going to be a short-term fight. We're not going to make short term gains very easily, and we have to be in this for the long run. And when activists do stay in it for the long run, they develop these skills that just become so unbelievably valuable, and they can really refine their skills and have true command over what they're doing, and they can spread that knowledge. They could share it with other activists, share the mistakes that they've made. 
And then all the stuff that I was doing in my early days of activism, I had also learned from activists who came before me. So it's like that ‘you get to stand on the shoulders of giants’ saying; you just get to do that endlessly. So we need activists to stay in the movement long-term because we're in a long-term fight, and because it helps just become a much more effective activist when you do.


27:46

James


A bit of a random reference, but I read this kind of business book by Jim Collins, ‘Good to Great’ or ‘Built to Las’t. And he says, kind of, CEOs reach peak performance in some of the top companies after about ten years in the role, just kind of to your point of, like, it takes so long to develop mastery, and once you've developed it, you want to use it. It takes a while to get really good at something. And once you've kind of reached that peak performance, you're so valuable to the movement; you're such an asset. And like you said, you have this amazing context of who's doing what, what are the gaps, what works really well in this context. So I think, yeah, it makes total sense that you keep applying that kind of hard earned knowledge and skills to the problem. 
So, yeah, I think that alone, I think, makes total sense. 


28:25

Amy


Yeah, definitely. I feel like I've said on multiple occasions to multiple people that a really helpful thing would have been if we can download Aaron Ross into some sort of fact file of information that we can use to our advantage. I think it was always so clear to me, working on this topic and working with all of the different organisations, the connections that you have, the experience you've gained over this amount of time. It was like, man, it would be such a good manual for everyone to have a little Aaron Ross in their pocket. So, yeah, I definitely see the advantages over time. 


29:00

Aaron


You just build this deep understanding, and you build this deep institutional knowledge. The only way you can gain that is just through time. I'm just like your average run of the mill activist, but I've had a long run, so that's very beneficial. And obviously, the 10,000 hours thing, you get that experience, and eventually things just click over time. It's almost like learning another language. It's very difficult for a long time, and then all of a sudden, it just clicks, and you get this crystallisation of ideas and theories that I think is just so invaluable. And it's not like the movement just keeps going. It's like we keep having these problems come at us. We keep having setbacks in the movement. It's just like anything else in life. It just keeps coming at you. And that's why I think it's very important to just really be entrenched in it and be dedicated and have that commitment for the long term. 


30:12

James


Yeah, definitely. And I guess I'm curious to hear your thoughts on: do you think kind of burnout, or people kind of, for whatever reasons, dropping out or being less engaged in the movement is a key challenge? And how do you think that manifests in what we're seeing today? 


30:28

Aaron


Obviously, I think burnout is an issue, and it needs to be addressed. I guess I'm sceptical about how we address that or theories that have been shared on how to address that. I know something big that's being talked about right now is work-life-balance, and I don't know how much - I don't know how much I subscribe to that one. Activism is like a labour of love. And for me, I got obsessed with activism, and I was eating, breathing, and sleeping activism. It's like what I was doing. I didn't have much of a life outside. I had hobbies, I played music and things like that. But it's just like, that's what I wanted to do. That's what I enjoyed doing. And that obsession, I think, also really helps with personal development, developing skills, and learning. 
I think that just jumping in the deep end, I think, is a good thing. And I think that's how you get really good at something. You become obsessed with it, and you do it all the time. And I just don't know if that work-life-balance is, like, the answer to burnout. I think there are other answers to burnout, but I just don't know. I'm not completely sold on that concept. 


32:03

James


Do you have any thoughts, Aaron, on how people can develop this obsession? Or do you think of it as something people should try to develop because it keeps you, like you said, really engaged and focused and obsessed with learning, or do you think this is actually not a useful tool, or you can't really pick it up if something is kind of innate? 


32:22

Aaron


That's a great question! I know I just have that obsessive personality. Like, when I get into something, I just really get into it. From my personal experience, I don't know if it's something that could be cultivated or not, but I think I found such a benefit from that in everything, not just activism, but in other areas of my life. When I get obsessed with music, like when I'm writing a song, I will just get obsessed with writing this one song. When you're working one thing and you always have it in the back of your mind. You have these eureka moments because you start to connect things that are unrelated to what you're thinking about, because they're always just there in your head. And I think that's very useful. So that's something I think that could be - that part I think can be put into practice. It's not like an innate characteristic, but, yeah, the obsessive personality, that I don't know. I'm sure there's practices that you can do that can help. They can help you become obsessed or less obsessed with something. So I'm sure there's some things that you could be doing. 


33:31

Amy


I guess we're at an interesting point where, as you said, Aaron, previously, perhaps everyone was in volunteer roles. It really was done kind of for the love of it. There wasn't money in there. And so whilst we've seen the positive influence that adding an injection of cash into this movement has done, we've been able to hire much more aggressively, grow organisations to replicate the same successful tactics, expand globally. So whilst we have seen a lot of positives there, maybe also, would you suggest that has come with the cost of people joining the movement as a job, as kind of any other job, and less about that? Kind of really getting down to the nitty-gritty of putting your personal time and energy and maybe even money towards a cause that they were really passionate about. 


34:21

Aaron


I believe firmly that money - we need money, we need a lot of it to help animals. And that's just a reality. But I think we have to be careful because I think money does have the potential to destroy the movement also, I think for some of the reasons that you were alluding to, Amy, I think if we're not careful, money, or like a - we might be too focused on money or compensation or career, rather than the core objective being helping animals. And that is something that definitely concerns me because I was reading a book, I think it was called 33 Strategies of War. And they were talking in that book about just militaries that end up, like throughout history, that ended up relying on mercenaries, always end up having enormous problems because people that are in your group are just there for money and not for; they're not like true believers in the cause. And I am concerned about that problem replicating in the movement where the movement is so professionalised. If you go to any of these major organisations now, they feel very corporate. And I think there's some risk there that we should be very mindful of to not become like a soulless organisation that feels just like any other workplace, because then that's where the focus becomes - the focus becomes constantly just improving the workplace, building career paths, and the focus moves away from helping animals. It's the primary focus. 


36:22

Amy


I do find this topic particularly interesting because I also think that I've witnessed within the movement that we sometimes rely too much on this sense of mission and perhaps missed opportunities to recruit people who are experienced in other fields or other specialisms within the movement and bring them in, because we're so focused on that mission. And organisations, for example, saying that employees need to be vegan, for example, is perhaps off putting to people with tons of experience who could add a lot of value and worth to this space by comparing with professional industries that they've worked in potentially for 20 years and bringing over best practice to help us progress in the movement, because it is a difficult fight and I think personal passion can get us so far. 

But then we're talking about going against these huge giants. So actually, people with experience in going against these giants, like perhaps bringing them in to help us on this side would be a really helpful endeavour. So I feel like I've always found that interesting between that kind of worry of mission drift and sense that money and the cause isn't at the root of what we're doing. And that could pose a challenge, but also restricting the movement in that way that, unless you're passionate and are going to go to the ends of the earth for the animals, then this movement isn't for you and perhaps not worth your time. So, yeah, I feel like I have opinions in both camps on that. 


37:59

Aaron


I mean, don't get me wrong, my life has become dramatically better once I had money to survive on. 


38:05

Amy


Sure!


38:06

Aaron


And stability. But there is a certain point where it's just like, I don't need any more money and I do worry about it. I mean, it's a trade-off though, right? One of my favourite quotes is: ‘there are no solutions, there are only trade-offs’. And I think the trade-off here is, yes, the money injection. We have a lot more activists, like you were saying, Amy, we have a lot more groups around the world that can be supported. People can have some stability in their lives, and they can work on animals full-time. I mean that's a huge benefit. But yeah. The trade-off is the mercenary effect and the focus becoming more on career than animals. And that's an interesting trade-off that I think about, and it's hard to strike that balance. 


39:08

James


Definitely. And another relevant thing that I read semi-recently is - so Mark and Paul Engler, who wrote the book, This Is an Uprising - this is not public, but maybe I'll share it in the show notes, because not that many people read than listen to podcasts, relatively. They wrote this memo for the Sunrise Movement on professionalism within social movements because the Sunrise Movement basically grew from this ‘small grasses’ group. So this huge non-profit with the budget of 10 million people. And the Englers were basically advising the risks of staffing up. And one of them was actually, the more staff you have, the more everyday activists feel like: ‘Oh, it's not my job to do stuff because there's paid people who are paid really well to do this work. I'll just do a few things here and there. I won't get seriously involved and actually kind of dissuade people from being really more engaged than they would be.’

So I guess the similar kind of risk here is actually by having lots of paid staff, are we reducing the number of people who are otherwise taking on responsibility and roles? So, yeah, I think I'll link that below as another interesting discussion or point in this salary versus not trade-off. 

I guess I need to return to the idea of longevity a bit. I guess I'd be curious to hear in what ways this kind of, like - over time, you said you kind of built up experience and knowledge and things and skills. Are there any particular ways that come to fruition in your work such that you've kind of been: ‘Oh, I'm so much better placed to make this decision or run this campaign now compared to ten years ago.’ And, yeah, do you have any examples of this kind of longevity benefit? 


40:39

Aaron


Oh, so many. I mean, a really basic example is just public speaking. So when I first started public speaking, I was so cringed, I was terrible at it. I look at some of the talks I gave…


40:56

James


[Laughing]
It's how I feel as well. I think so many people feel that way about themselves, so it's really not surprising. 


41:01

Amy


[Laughing]


41:02

Aaron


But I think I was objectively bad. But I've never taken a public speaking course. I went toastmasters for one day, but that's the extent of my public speaking training. And that was something I just, like, learned over time. I just learned by doing it over and over and over again. And that's something that the longevity can provide; like that opportunity just to keep trying and keep refining. And eventually I just became good at it, and now I really enjoy doing it. And that just came from time. And part of this is like, you just have to be willing to be the fool at first. You have to be willing to completely humiliate yourself and take on that embarrassment and put yourself in that vulnerable position. But if you just do that over and over again, eventually you're not the fool and you're not humiliating yourself. Well, maybe sometimes socially humiliating yourself, but not on a regular basis. But you end up growing from that. 

And that same experience has also happened with campaigns that I ran. Just like, you get to see what works and what doesn't work over time, and the trial and error becomes smaller and smaller. Of course, when you step back… in campaigns (corporate campaigns) you see companies also evolving. They start becoming immune to some campaign tactics. So again, you gain this bird's eye view of, like: ‘Okay, these tactics, these are very effective tactics. They worked for a long time, but there are signs that they're not working as much now. So maybe we need to tweak things.’ And then there are just, like, timeless tactics that just always work. So you get to gain that understanding. And I think that puts you in a good position to make those judgement calls. 

Like when we are designing a campaign, same thing with negotiations, where we go in and do the boardroom with a corporation or sitting down and trying to get them to do something that they really don't want to do. You just get to learn through your experience and refine that over time of what to do in a corporate negotiation, and you just become very comfortable at it. I was shaking the first time I went into a corporate meeting. I was, like, visibly nervous. But over time, it becomes so normal. It's like driving or something. It just becomes second nature. You don't even think about it when you're doing it. 


44:09

Aaron


And how long do you kind of mean by how long did it take for you to kind of reach mastery or reach a level where you feel really confident? Are we talking like two years, five years? What kind of time do you have in mind? 


44:21

Aaron


It's an endless pursuit, really. I think there's always room for improvement. One thing I do in my free time is study Martial Arts, and I really enjoy Jujutsu. And in Jujutsu, there's a saying that a black belt is just a white belt that never quit because you learn these skills over time, you go in knowing nothing, and then the only way to master something is just to keep doing it over time. The point where things really start to click - you got to do it for at least a few years, at least three to five years, to move up a belt in martial arts terms. And I think to really master some of these skills, I think it can really take a solid decade for some things anyway. 
I'd say, like, negotiation is extremely complex, and that is probably one of the areas that would take longer to progress in and to really get comfortable and get highly skilled at. I'd say it would take, like, probably a solid decade. 


45:42

Amy


And do you think there's a cap on that? Because you've obviously had many different roles. You've kind of started in that street activism, radical work, moving to corporate policy work, and now provide strategy for the movement and leadership. Do you think that progression has aided your ability to stay in the movement long term because it's something new after maybe like 5, 6, 10 years, there's like a new challenge, a new task that you're getting to grips with and becoming obsessed with? Do you think changing your role across the movement during that time has caused you to want to push yourself further and stay in that movement long-term to learn more? 


46:23

Aaron


Yeah, I think there's definitely an element of that. It definitely provides some variety over time. So you're not getting…the seven-year itch is definitely real. I've definitely felt that several times throughout my career where I was like, I need to switch things up and do something different now. But yeah, I think there's a point where, especially once you start teaching others things that you have learned, that it’s just like, highly rewarding. So it's like, one of my favourite things to do is just go share my knowledge or give workshops on strategy. I just love doing that. And then I love seeing individuals, organisations take what they've learned and just run with it and put their own style on it. And I love seeing that. That's one of my favourite things to do. 
But it also is beneficial for you, because when you teach something, then you also gain a deeper understanding of it. It helps crystallise ideas in your mind that, maybe, were not so clear before you had to explain it to another person. And I think that's a really exciting place to be in as well. You're still doing activism. It just takes a different form when you're teaching it. But yeah, that also can help provide that variety that some people need. And I'm definitely one of those people - I'll get obsessed with something, but I also need that rotation, that variety in my life. 


48:04

James


You also get very granular in your work, and I've never, sadly, been involved with any of your kind of corporate campaign or negotiation trainings. But I've heard good words from Amy; that they can be extremely thorough and detail oriented to the point of putting mascara on. I guess I'd be curious, what are the benefits of mascara? And two, do you think this level of granular versus zoomed out approach also helps you kind of maintain longevity? 


48:30

Aaron


Yeah, absolutely. Happy to talk about my makeup preferences, but, yeah, I think you just hit the nail on the head where you talked about this big picture view and also the granular view. I think having both of those in view is extremely helpful for staying in the movement long-term and also helping you make decisions and becoming better at making decisions. And that bigger picture view, I think that really can only be gained through time and experience. The more granular stuff, like the tactical stuff that you were just alluding to, that also takes time to refine. So, yeah, mascara during corporate meetings, that is on the granular-levers-level. So I do wear makeup when I go into corporate meetings, and there's a good reason for this. I do wear mascara because one thing I've noticed over time in meetings is that eye contact is just very important and people are just constantly looking across the table at your eyes. So I decided to start experimenting with putting on mascara just to draw more attention to my eyes in the meeting. And just a little tip for anyone listening who's into makeup. I put on just enough mascara where people ask themselves, is he wearing makeup or are his eyes just really pretty? But, yeah, there's like - these little negotiations are perfect example where there's these little dials you can turn just a little, that can make a big difference. And a great way to learn that is just by, again, just staying in what you're doing and doing it for a long time, and you got to just have patience to get a grasp of these things. It took me, again, many years before I started dialling in some of these. 


50:39

James


Tactics, staying in for a long time and also experimenting. Right. You kind of had this hunch where: ‘Hey, this thing could be useful. I should try it out.’ And then you try it for a bit, look at the reaction. So I think this idea of experimenting with potential things, and then you have the time to actually see the feedback of each tactic. So, yeah, I think that's a really great insight. 


50:55

Amy


Do you think that process of being able to get on the granular level came with a little bit of kind of privilege, I guess, from those early days of it being less driven by funding and KPIs, and it was way more time to just sit in an idea and experiment and get into that granular level. Whereas now I certainly hear from organisations that there's real pressure to get the commitments right, so they get a big grant and they set KPIs against that. And it's like: ‘Ookay, we need five corporate commitments by the end of this year.’ It's really perhaps somewhere in Africa or Asia where there just isn't that precedent set. And so there just isn't…Yeah, I guess I'm interested to hear from - you know, maybe others listening to the podcast would think: ‘Wow, like what I would give to have the time and space and resources to feel like I could get into that granular level and do all of these different tests.’ Perhaps that feels like something that was rooted in having the privilege of time in the past, and maybe there isn't the capacity for that now. I don't know. Do you feel like we should be opening up more capacity and resources for that kind of experimentation? 


52:03

Aaron


I definitely think the answer to that is yes. One of the risks of the movement growing so quickly and organisations - I should say more organisations growing and growing so quickly - is that you can start to feel the weight of bureaucracy and start drowning in administrative stuff and processes, and it can create an atmosphere where it's not as easy to be innovative in and where you don't have room to experiment. You're under pressure, you have to perform again. There was a trade-off factor because in the early days we didn't have money, so were all working jobs and doing this in our spare time, so we didn't have time in that sense. I think there was this sweet spot where the organisation was growing and we became sizable, but weren't so large, where there's a lot more of the administrative processes that don't make as much room for that. And it's very difficult, I'd say, to design a workplace when you're working in a large organisation that does make room for this. We do talk about this a lot and in theory we keep trying to find ways to build in room for experimentation and innovation, but it is very difficult to balance that with being diligent on process as well. Yeah, I think that is definitely a key challenge, and I think you're right that zooming in on some of the granular details has been a privilege of time, of just doing it for a long time. 
But I think that's just yet another argument of why activists need to stay in the movement long term, so they do have the time to develop and refine some of those skills. 


53:56

James


It would be good to chat about reasons why people don't end up staying in the movement long-term and what actually challenges that. And I'd be curious, in your kind of experience, seeing people come and go, what do you think are the biggest threats to people actually staying involved long term? 


54:11

Aaron


There are so many. Maybe it might help to break these down categorically. Finance is one. So financially, I'd say, like, the challenges that we were talking about earlier with the finances of maybe having a lot of money in activism creates its own challenges. So then you have that market competition where if someone is really working and they're really interested in their career, they might see another opportunity and go and move over to a different job that's not in the movement. Or not having enough money. I mean, a lot of organisations don't have money where they can pay really healthy salaries, and not having enough money is also a problem. 

I think there's other challenges that pop up that are just psychological. Staying in the movement, being like a lifer in the movement, can be very difficult, because you want to make these changes for animals. But change again happens slowly and incrementally, and there are setbacks, and it can be very demoralising sometimes. And the cage-free egg campaigns that are popular right now, I think are like a good example of that. We're asking for such a small change, but it takes so much to get that change, like, so much energy to get that change. And then sometimes you get these setbacks. We get the industry trying to overturn some of the laws in the United States that have been forcing cage-free, as an example. And all other movements face this as well. We see that where things are just decades of work are just overturned with the stroke of a pen. And it’s tough to go through that and put all of your energy and your heart and soul into something and just see that progress wiped away. But that's the reality of a movement. Like, we just have to keep trudging forward and take those setbacks and just keep moving forward regardless.

It could be psychologically very difficult as well. And then you have the social factor. It can be socially very difficult. The animal rights movement is not a large movement. It's a very niche movement. Everyone knows each other pretty much, or has some degree of connection to each other. This creates challenges with people's love lives, like dating in the movement, and then you cause rifts, like when you break up. If you have a disagreement with someone or people don't like each other in the movement, this can cause major problems because we're such a small movement. I know organisations who refuse to talk to each other. We're talking like one out of just a few dozen, like a handful of organisations that exist. And then when two groups don't want to work together, that creates huge logistical challenges. But, yeah, it can be tough socially, too, when you do dedicate your life to this and maybe the people around you - we have this global community that might feel large, but in reality, locally, I mean, I know almost no one who cares about animals deeply around me, my family, or my local circle of friends I hang out with or go to the bar with. I love hanging out with them, and I love these people, but they're not on the same page in terms of dedication to animals. So there's like this diaspora of animal activists around the world who are connected digitally and maybe at conferences a couple of times a year, but at home, it's a different story usually. And that can be tough on people, too. 

So I think there's a lot of these barriers that just can make it very difficult to stay in the movement long term. And then I think there are also just pitfalls, like these traps that people can fall in. And I think we're happy to talk about some of those. But I think that it's important for people to be mindful of if they want to stay in the movement long-term. 


58:34

James


Whenever I go to AVA or any of the big conferences, I always leave and I'm like: ‘It would be so good if we all just lived in the exact same place. It's so fun hanging out with all my friends in the same place, so intentionally, it's like, why can’t it always be like this.’ So if anyone wants to set up this big animal rights community somewhere, please let me know. That would be great. 

And I agree, I think the social network thing is super important. There's actually a really good book by professor Hahrie Han. It's called How Organisations Develop Activists, and it speaks about how actually, one of the most important factors that predict people joining activist groups or social movements, is their social relations. And often people are most likely to join when they have, like, a change in their social circumstance; you either move to a new city, you leave, or join university. And then people often stay engaged because of the relationships they build. And you're like: ‘Oh, wow. All my friendship circle cares about this. I can't let them down and not come to this meeting or do this campaign.’ So it kind of keeps you in the movement long-term. So I think, yeah, that social element is super important. 


59:29

Amy


There's been a lot of talk over the last few years, and obviously, as the movement is progressing and professionalising, organisational culture has played a really big part, I think, in how organisations are developing and trying to be sustainable over the long term. Do you have any thoughts on how much an organisation's internal working culture affects that kind of dropout rate and how comfortable people feel staying in the movement long term? 


59:58

Aaron


I think culture is incredibly important, and I think the larger the organisation, the more difficult maintaining culture is. They go on a smaller scale. It can be easier, like when you're just dealing with a handful of people in an organisation, it's very easy to create, like, a culture. The norms of the culture, they spread much easier. Everyone knows each other. They have that contextual knowledge about the organisation, that when you're in a large organisation, you have to teach that context, which is very difficult. In large organisations, you have a lot of rotating doors where people come and go. So you have to constantly teach that. In the small organisations, I think it's easier to keep people involved longer-term because the culture is just a culture of dedication. It's like this small core of dedicated people. And when you're around those people, it is so contagious. You can just feel it viscerally. These are people that don't quit. These are people that are committed. These are like my people. You feel that; it's like a very almost tribal feeling, and that's very difficult to replicate in the larger organisational settings. I think that would be really cool to explore, how to do that because I think that definitely affects how long people stay. That was a big element in my life. For me, staying very long term is most of the Humane League's history. We were very small for like 15 years. We were just this tiny group of dedicated activists. And then only in the more recent history, we blew up and got very large. 
But that has been a challenging challenge for us; the internal culture and kind of maintaining that same feeling of unity. And we have this common enemy, this industry, a giant industry that we're fighting - that starts to feel lost a little, and it's about trying to find ways to respark that. 


01:02:14
James


Do you want to get back to the pitfalls you're talking about? I'm curious to hear what those other pitfalls are - besides other kind of threats - why people are dropping out? 


01:02:21

Aaron


Yeah. There are a lot of pitfalls related to staying long-term that I think activists can fall into, and a lot of this has to do with just, like, I'd say, just basic common courtesy and good behaviour and social settings. I think this is the biggest pitfall, and if you make a mistake here, I think it can be like a fatal mistake. When you're working for a long time in a small community, like the animal rights community, you're dealing with a lot of the same people over and over again, and you'll see them, especially others who end up staying long-term. You'll just see them, like, for the rest of your life, you'll just see them at these conferences, and you're going to interact with them. 
So I think maintaining good, positive relations with everyone can be incredibly challenging, but I think it's really worthwhile putting the effort into, because as soon as you do have a rift between someone or with someone, you're going to feel it, and it's going to have consequences in such a small community. So it can take a lot of effort to act a little, take the high road more often than you might typically would in your life outside of the movement, where if you did have a rift with someone or someone did something that was very offensive to you, it might be easy just to write them off, just shun them. I think you just have to take a more tactful approach in the movement and finesse relationships a little more. 

I think you also have to be aware of dangerous people. There just are people that exist in the world that want to attack other people and want to bring down other people. And I think it's very good to be aware of the signs of those types of people that may be dangerous and might want to engage in reputational harm to people who - obviously some people who deserve reputational harm because they do bad things. But there are people that I've come across many times in my career that are really just interested in reputational harm for the sake of it. And I think being aware of that is very critical to surviving in the movement long-term. 

And then I think you just have to be smart with your love life, which is much easier said than done because you're dealing with emotions and love. These are intense emotions. I used to date within the movement, all my partners were in the movement, and I realised over time, I don't know if that's such a good idea or not. Maybe it's better to separate that. I don't have a definite answer on that. But I've definitely seen romantic relationships be the cause of huge rifts and the reason why some people drop out of the movement, because they just have to see these people they have horrible histories with. So I think just being wise about your friendships and your romantic relationships and just your relationships in general with other people you're dealing with. People are sensitive and they fight and they have histories, and there's a very real possibility that you're not going to be friends with some people that you're friends with now, in the future. So I think managing that in a diplomatic way is important for long-term survival in the movement. 


01:06:18

Amy


I really recognize how interconnected all of the movement is, and I want to just maybe give you an opportunity to clarify that. Also, we're not talking about tolerance of negative behaviours. So perhaps, like, there are really serious issues that are happening in organisations and not just for the sake of the movement, tolerating that because it's the right thing to do for the animals or to keep the movement afloat. I think maybe it would be good to just speak on that, to reaffirm your position on, maybe, the more serious cases in the movement where tolerance just can't be expected. 


01:06:53

Aaron


I hope what I said before is not conflated with tolerating bad behaviour, because that's definitely not what I meant. Yeah, I do think not tolerating bad behaviour is a very good thing. We need to keep bad actors out of the movement because they are just dangerous for the movement. So the MeToo movement, I think, was one of the best things that ever happened to the animal rights movement because it did weed out some very bad actors, and that's what we need to keep doing. We need to keep the movement safe, and we need to keep the movement full of good people that have very good intentions. People can make mistakes, and that's different. But people that have a pattern of bad behaviour, they do need to be extricated from the movement, and that is also very good for longevity. 
We don't need dangerous people in the movement that are going to harm other activists and then have them drop out of the movement. The movement is fragile, and we need to keep as many activists in it as possible, and we don't need dangerous people affecting others and making them drop out. 


01:08:04

Amy


I don't think you did say anything contrary to that. I think it's just worth that extra sort of clarification. Thank you! 


01:08:12

Aaron


Absolutely! Yeah, thank you for that!


01:08:13

James


Building off the challenge, I'd be curious: what have you found personally quite challenging over your past 20 years and staying involved? And how's that journey been to you? 


01:08:21

Aaron


Like I said before, definitely the finances were very hard on me. I had no money for the first 20 years I was in the movement, and that was difficult. I didn't care about it much, but it was very difficult, like, constantly just having no money. 

And then I'd say there's also been this struggle that I've had of trying to find the line between friendship and professional colleagues. Because you'll find, sometimes the people that you work with, you'll engage with so often, and you'll do things together. Like, you might travel on a tour together, you might visit a new country together, and you can have these really intense bonding experiences. And then the lines between friendship and colleagues get very blurred, and you have to remind yourself at all times, like: ‘Okay, this is still my colleague. I have to be professional here.’ Even though we're not in a work-setting. So, that can get really awkward sometimes. And I've definitely crossed that line in my past where I'm like: ‘Oh, this is just my friend now.’ And I didn't act professionally, and then that got me in trouble. And that was like, I'm very mindful of that now. I take, like - I'm professional at all times, inside and outside the workplace, but you don't want to swing the pendulum too far in the other direction where you're just like, you just walk around like a drone, like a robot, and you need to still bring yourself to your work and be yourself while still remaining professional. And I think, again, this line is very hard to find, but I think bringing yourself to your work is important, one, for longevity, so you're not just like, in this actor role at all times of being someone you're not. That's just not sustainable. But two, it's just, people like being around other people. And if you're bringing yourself and you're an interesting person and you can have cool conversations and you can hang out, you can go out together and have a good time. That just creates more bonding experiences, that improves your relationship with the people that you're working with and your colleagues. That, to me, has been a challenge, I'd say, for longevity - trying to find that line. 

And then some of the psychological challenges I've struggled with have been seeing the movement experience setbacks or start to plateau in progress. After putting so much work in that, demoralisation can be very tough. Are we allowed to cuss on this podcast? 


01:11:25

James


Yeah, I think it's fine. 


01:11:26

Amy


Yeah. 

[Laughing]


01:11:27

Aaron


Okay, cool. Even when things are at their shittiest, if you just keep going forward, you will start to see progress. It's just not always very linear, and that's hard to keep in mind because I think we're just psychologically driven towards, or thinking that progress is linear and that's just not how the world works. It's like progress, almost like an emergent force. Like it comes out of just lots of activity that you're doing around an issue. Yeah, this is how it works. 


01:12:02

Amy


Has there been points along the line where you felt: ‘this is too much’? I definitely recognize in my time in corporate relations that just the setbacks, the ‘No’; you've been working with someone in a company for months and months, and then that person leaves the organisation, so you're needing to start again from scratch. This endless cycle of challenges, particularly in that corporate relations role. Has there been a time where you've thought: ‘You know what, yeah, this is too much’? And also perhaps as a side: have you thought about what you would do outside of the movement? I guess because you've been in this since school, right, college, graduating - is there like a position that you think: ‘Do you know what? If I had this life again and I chose a different path, I would do this position.’? 


01:12:53

Aaron


Yeah. The corporate work, like the corporate negotiation work, can be especially demoralising because like you mentioned, you're just going around meeting with all these companies, you're constantly emailing companies and these dialogues, and all you're hearing is ‘no’ all day long, or you're just getting ignored. That can be. Though for me, that actually energises me when someone says no or pisses me off. That is what turns my brain on. So I get really into it when that happens. So that's been a benefit for me in the corporate work. But that can be really tough. Like just constantly getting told ‘no’ all the time and getting rejected. That can be very tough. 

And there's also, like, the other aspect of corporate work which I don't think we've touched on yet, which is the travelling. And this is probably not just with corporate work, but a lot of activism requires a lot of travel. And I don't know if you ever read that book by Kafka called Metamorphosis; very famous, like classic book, but basically in Kafka's Metamorphosis, the book is about a travelling salesman, and he goes to all these different cities, stays in all these different hotels, and by the end of the book, he turns into a cockroach. And I love that book because basically, what that book is about is, like, when you travel that much, you become unrecognisable to your friends and family back home, because travelling changes you. You have all these different experiences. You're on your own a lot. You're meeting all these different people you would never interact with. It's hard to keep a routine and be healthy on the road, and you just come back and you're just like a different person. That's, what I feel like when I travel a lot for work, I come back and I'm just like - I feel like a different person. And I really relate to that book. But I think that can be a big challenge for staying in the movement as well. If travelling is a lot of your activism, a lot of your job, that can also take a toll. 


01:15:19

Amy


Yeah. 


01:15:19

Aaron


And the second part of your question about what I would be doing if I wasn't in the movement, like, travelling around a lot, there's probably a few different paths I would have taken. I'm really into astronomy, and that's something I study in my free time. Probably do something with that. It's just like a huge interest. I don't know why. I just find it fascinating and more interesting than any fiction or anything like that I've ever read. So I'd probably explore something in that field. I also love to write music and play in bands. I'd be doing that a lot more if it weren't for activism and, what else… I'm also into antiquing, so I recently opened up my own antique business in my spare time and probably be doing a lot more of that. 


01:16:18

James


Wow, that’s cool!
You find the time to run a spare business on the side? That sounds hectic!


01:16:25

Aaron


That is also a labour of love. I was already doing that in my spare time. I go hunt for antiques. I've been doing that for many years. And then it's not like I don't run, like, a major business. I just have, like, a booth in an antique mall. 


01:16:41

James


But just like, nine figure,  nothing major. 

[Laughing]


01:16:44

Aaron


Yeah. 

[Laughing]


01:16:47

James


Also, I studied astrophysics in uni. That was my master's degree. So if you ever want to talk about planets and space, I used to do a lot of thinking about that. So we can always talk about astronomy. 


01:16:58

Aaron


Oh, really? I would love that!


01:16:59

James


Yeah, let's do it. I can send you my thesis. It's a bit dry, but I swear there's good stuff in there. 

[Laughing]


01:17:03

Aaron


Yeah, I would absolutely love to read that!


01:17:07

Amy


Are we linking that in the show notes? 

[Laughing]


01:17:12

James


We'll definitely link my master in the show notes. Yeah, it was looking for water, aka life on other planets. And actually, after I left my university, the team I was going to stay with and do a PhD (but I didn't in the end) they actually found water for the first time ever; liquid water on a different planet outside of a solar system. Obviously, that was like, kind of crazy. 


01:17:34

Aaron


Wow. I'm tempted to jump into that, but I'm not going to do it for the sake of the podcast. 

[Laughing]


01:17:42

James


We'll close that tangent there. 

You and Amy have both spoke about some of the challenges of corporate relations. I'm curious, what kind of people do you think, in your mind, are a good fit for that corporate relations role? 


01:17:52

Aaron


Well, they are very hard to find. Corporate relations takes - I think it's an unusual combination of characteristics. I think you kind of have to have this ‘I'm-going-to-win’, ‘sore-loser’ mindset combined with a very high level of diplomacy. So it's like, you have to be willing to go into a corporate boardroom, threaten high level executives to their face, get in major arguments and super high pressure conversations with them, but then also maintain this level of diplomacy and be able to still leave a door open and work with them and come across as reasonable and approachable. It's like this bizarre balance. 

And you'll find a lot like - I find I'll notice a lot of corporate people who are really good at corporate relations tend to have other problems, or can tend to have other problems in their work life, because a lot of these traits can spill over into areas that you don't want them to. These are very tenacious people, so you sometimes just have to keep that in check. But I think people that are really good people who have that tenacity, that ‘I'm-going-to-win-no-matter-what’ kind of attitude; that can also really finesse relationships with other people. I think that combination, it's hard to find that combo, but once you have it in someone - and Amy was very good at this - once you have that in someone, those people are usually very good at corporate work. 


01:19:39

Amy


So I'd love to know, Aaron, kind of just to wrap up this section then, in terms of some really kind of best practices for increasing longevity, as we've said, you're kind of - and I really feel this - like an exceptional example of a lot of the things that you've been talking about today. I think you have an incredibly positive reputation. There's many people in the movement who would class you as a friend as well as a colleague, really maintaining that composure, but also being highly strategic on a both global level, but also really on a granular level. So I think you're obviously putting a lot of these things that you've learned and are really a stellar example of these best practices. 

Do you think there's kind of skills and traits and ways that you can develop a lot of those essential assets to make longevity more likely in the space? Or do you find that it's much more externally motivated and it's how the movement is going to progress? What do you think that balance is between things that we can do ourselves versus how the movement needs to be shaped in order for us to feel like we can stay there long-term? 


01:20:47

Aaron


Yeah, I definitely think that there are some best practices that people can put into place if they want to increase their longevity in the movement or increase their chances of staying long term anyway. And one, as we talked about: ‘just don't shit where you eat’. Just be careful with romantic relationships in the movement and even friendships, and try not to blow up relationships in the movement. They will come back to bite you. 

A little bit of a contrast of what I was saying earlier about the work life balance fallacy, but I think keeping hobbies and being interested in other things besides animal rights can also just be very helpful. Provide that variety that I think human brains need and just make you more interesting of a person when you're hanging out with other activists, too, and non-activists or non-vegans. In a sense, if you surround yourself with people you want to be like, you're just going to take on some of those characteristics. Like, my grandmother always told me when I was growing up, she's like, she always said: ‘you can't fly with the eagles if you hang out with turkeys’. And that always stuck with me. I think it's very true. You got to surround yourself with people that you want to be like, because we all like to think of ourselves as really independent entities. But the truth is, we're all very influenced by outside sources. And if you surround yourself with people that have really good characteristics, you will start to be influenced by them, and you'll start to take on some of those characteristics. 

I was very lucky to be surrounded by some absolutely amazing people, like David Coman-Hidy you had on your show earlier, Andrea Gunn. These types of people just had such a positive influence on my character. I highly recommend being conscious about who you choose to hang out with, and then really just making up your mind to commit to something, I think, can make a very big difference when you make a conscious commitment to the movement and just chain yourself to the movement and you just go all in. I'm going to be in the movement for the rest of my life. This is what I'm going to do. You will figure out ways to do that, but you do have to fully commit. You can't just be half in, half out. 

There's a saying like: ‘you can't ride two horses with one ass’. This is a perfect example. I think you got to be in it and you got to commit to being in it. And that commitment, I think, will increase the chances of you being in it long-term. 


01:23:41

James


I'm curious if there's any ways you've kind of made that commitment in physical or in a way that's just not in your brain. Have you ever written that down? Have you told other people this? Or how do you kind of really solidify this commitment? 


01:23:52

Aaron


Well, I got a tattoo on my stomach in giant letters that says vegan, and I'm not even joking about that. 


01:23:59

James


That's a pretty good way to sign that. Fair enough. 


01:24:02

Aaron


Yeah, I’ve just done it mentally. I've mentally made up my mind that this is what I'm going to be doing. This is my life. There are always multiple paths in front of you at all times, and you just have to choose. There's always multiple paths. And I think if you just consciously choose to stay on this path, your chances of actually saying it will increase. 


01:24:29

Amy


And what do you think we can do as a movement? I think perhaps we all sit in a relatively privileged position, living in western countries, developed countries, recognizing that we have salaries that are livable and competitive. And how do we sort of support the rest of the emerging movement in order to feel like they have a shot at getting to this point where turning something that's just a passion and perhaps has been voluntary, led into something that is a sustainable career and can support them and their families financially? Is there things you think we need to practise as a movement to ensure that the chance of longevity in the movement is accessible to everybody globally? 


01:25:22

Aaron


Yeah, I think the first thing is we need to get these groups resources. There are just so many amazing groups around the world that are just under-resourced. They're taking on massive, ambitious problems with very few staff or no staff, just volunteers, and it's incredible. But they could be doing a lot more if they just had the resources to do it. So I think that is like a huge priority in my mind. It's one of the main things that we do at the Open Wing Alliance. We just exist to provide resources to member organisations to provide them with networks and a network to share information, skill sharing, and points of connection with other activists and actual funds as well; we provide grants to our member organisations. So, yeah, I think that's probably the best we can do. And also, there's a lot that we can learn from these organisations as well. And I think just interacting with them and being able to have that conversation with these groups about how we can support each other and just making those connections and just having that network in place, I think is just enormously helpful. 


01:26:35

James


When you're answering some of the ways that you've stayed engaged, you kind of spoke about slightly, kind of broader mindset shifts. So you spoke about committing to the movement long-term, like surrounding yourself with good people who are also committed and also having a healthy work-life-balance that involves other habits. I'm curious, besides these kinds of broader mindset things, are there smaller tactical, behavioural things you do as well to keep yourself motivated and energised long-term? 


01:26:59

Aaron


There's one thing that I do that sometimes gets me in trouble, but I find it very helpful, and that is building in a lot of room for deep work and deep thought. One thing that bothers me about moving into - like, I saw the shift from when I was doing activism in the early 2000s, we didn't have cell phones. We were printing directions out on paper to get to the protest. One thing that has bothered me about the movement moving to the digital age is this constant bombardment of messages at all times. And I find that very oppressive to creative thought. So, I purposely build in a lot of my schedule to have that deeper work, and sometimes it feels slower, but the outcome is usually much better and higher quality. 

And I think that it just also feels more sane and sustainable. So I'm not the quickest at getting back to messages, and that's one of my big flaws, personally and professionally, both areas, actually. But I find, like, when I put proper thought into something - because I'm a processor, so I really like to process information - I find when I have that room to do that, yes, the downside is the trade-off we talked about earlier. The trade-off is that it's sometimes a slower process, but I find the output to be a lot higher quality. 


01:28:36

James


I'm also a big believer in deep work, and maybe we'll link Cal Newport's book Deep Work, which is, I think, some of the first stuff on this, which I think is amazing. But I'd be curious, what does that look like for you, tangibly? So does that mean you kind of start your day with no meetings for the first, like three or four hours? Or how do you put that into practice? 


01:28:53

Aaron


No. So I still have a lot of meetings that are just mandatory or necessary. But I like working a lot in the evening. This is something I do personally. When there's not that bombardment of messages, things are quiet. My mind just feels like it comes alive. So I will sometimes just work just a couple of hours. I'll work five, six hours throughout the day, but then in the evening, a lot of times I'll work at night or in the evening, and I can just get so much more work done and my work is so much higher quality. It's like I'm a different person in the evenings when things are quieter. 

So I'll build that into my schedule. Like, I'll make sure I go to the gym during the day or in the morning if I have any errands to run, like going to get groceries or to get my car fixed or something. I'll make sure to build in time for that during the day and then come back and have a couple of hours at the end of the day to work. So that really works for me - building in a couple of hours each day to have some deep work time. I know that's not for everyone, but that does work well for me. 


01:30:04

James


Yeah, I think David Coman-Hidy told me he gets up really early, starts working at like 06:00 a.m. So I think he's kind of the opposite end. And he starts things really early because again, I think he likes the quiet in the morning when people aren't awake and sending emails. And I do something kind of similar as well. I basically don't check emails till midday, which is really nice. But then if you do check sometimes you're like: ‘Oh no, I'm thinking about this thing and I can't focus.’ Anyway, we'll share all that stuff because it's really interesting. And he wrote an even more radical book called A World Without Email, which sounds crazy to many of us, but I haven't actually read the book. We'll share it anyway because it's probably interesting. 


01:30:40

Aaron


Oh, interesting! I heard that he wrote a new book, but I didn't know what it was. 


01:30:45

James


Yeah, about how email, even worse things like Slack basically are destroying our attention span and how there's now so many small interruptions and all the context switching, which means basically we can't, like you said, get into this flow state of deep creative work. 


01:30:56

Aaron


Oh, interesting. I'll have to read that to affirm my belief and practice. 

[Laughing]


01:31:03

Amy


Just a quick side shout-out to the parents in the movement who are probably just smiling and nodding at this idea of flexible time where you can just really get into deep thought. It makes me want to cry. [Laughing] So yeah, shout out to you if you also work in the movement and have children and don't have a lot of those privileges of time, I can relate. 


01:31:25

Aaron


Probably not exactly what you're going through, but two months ago I rescued a dog who's special needs and demands attention at all times throughout the day. And she has huge FOMO. Like if I get on a call, she just immediately starts bothering me and oh my god, it's taken up so much of my energy throughout the day and completely destroyed my schedule. 


01:31:48

Amy


Yeah, that's good; sounds about right. 

[Laughing]


01:31:49

Aaron


I got some sense of what that might be like. 

[Laughing]


01:31:51

Amy


Moving on to some closing questions then…

Thanks, Aaron! I think this has been a really insightful episode, and I want to just initially shout-out to Ula from Charity Entrepreneurship, who regularly provides really insightful questions for the podcast. Really puts in a lot of time and effort into sharing what she'd like to hear from the different guests. And this is one such question, which is: which two people would you invite to the table where the most pressing matters of animal liberation were discussed? 


01:32:23

Aaron


Well, the first one would be someone who's dead, but if they were alive, I would invite them. And that is my personal hero. It's his Hypatia of Alexandria. She was one of the most brilliant people who had ever existed. She was the headmastress at the Library of Alexandria, which held all the world's knowledge. At the time, she was a teacher in mathematics. She was noted as being like the first female astronomer. She was just wicked smart, so definitely like to have smart people in the room. 

And then outside of that, I would combine that smartness with someone who's very powerful. So whoever is the most powerful person in the world right now, I'd have them in the room. 


01:33:13

Amy


Who are you saying that is? 


01:33:15

James


I did not see that. Yeah. Who specifically? 


01:33:18

Aaron


I can't tell at the moment. The world is a mess. 


01:33:20

Amy


Yeah, fair enough. 


01:33:23

James


So we've mentioned a few resources, which we'll link below. But Aaron, I'm curious, on the topic of longevity or anything else you think is valuable, I'm curious, what kind of media recommendations would you have to the listeners in terms of books, podcasts, essays, or something else? 


01:33:37

Aaron


One of my favourite podcasts is Jocko Willink. So the Jocko Podcast. And Jocko wrote one of the most influential books in my life, which is called Extreme Ownership. And basically the book is just about how anything that happens or could happen, think about it as if it was your fault. And I think that helps illuminate what you could do about it. Obviously, not everything's your fault and not everything's in your control, but that type of mindset of owning everything that happens, it just illuminates what you can do or what you could do about things. A very simple concept, and it's just like any other kind of, like, pop science book where they repeat the same concept over and over again. That's what they do in that book, but it's a good concept that's really been useful in my life. 


01:34:40

James


Any other kind of resources related to the animal movement more broadly, things that are interesting and worth plugging? 


01:34:48

Aaron


I've tried finding good resources on negotiation without a lot of luck. So one of my recommendations might be, if you're interested in negotiation, I don't think reading about it is the best practice. I've read a lot of those books, and I found them interesting. They're very interesting, I didn't find them particularly useful, though. I think it's just one of those things you just have to do; one of these you have to do and experience, and you learn over time. It's not like something that you can put in a textbook or you don't have, like can't put into a flowchart very easily. So I think if you're interested in that, connect with someone who does it and try to do it with them or see if they'll do some role playing with you or take you to a meeting or something like that. 


01:35:44

Amy


And how can people get more involved in the work that you do? Are you hiring right now at THL? Is there anything you want to plug before we close up? 


01:35:55

Aaron


Sure, yeah! We're always hiring at the Humane League. Well, not always, but we hire a lot. So if you're interested in applying, just go to thehumaneleague.org. All of our open positions are updated there. They're always kept up to date, so if you see a position up there, it means it's still available. You can also just learn about our work there and also learn about the Open Wing Alliance as well. 


01:36:19

Amy


Well, thank you so much, Aaron! Yeah, real pleasure to work alongside you in the movement. And it was a no brainer for me, thinking of guests that would have an interesting spin on just a topic, and especially something like longevity, which we just need so much more of in the movement. So, yeah, thanks so much for your openness on your personal experience of that and all of the insight on how we can encourage and support this long term sustainability of the movement that we're all in!


01:36:53

Aaron


It was super fun!


01:36:54

James


Thanks so much, Aaron!