How I Learned to Love Shrimp

Ignacia Uribe on some tough decisions nonprofit leaders have to make

• Amy Odene & James Ozden

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Short but sweet episode this week from Ignacia, author of a recently released book, CEO of a leading organisation in Latin America and mother to two small kids. We're delighted that Ignacia took time out to talk to us about her experiences right across her contributions for animals. 

We chat about Fundacion veg and their campaigns in both diet change and animal welfare as well as the decision for Ignacia to scale down her organisation and what led to this decision. We talk about the importance of country context in campaigning and the challenges when working in this field across Latin America. 

We ran into a whole host of technical difficulties during this episode with unstable connections so please bear with us during the chat and why not head to youtube to see if you can spot the point at which an entire day passes before we resume filming for the remainder of the episode.

Resources: 

How can people get more involved in your work? Are you hiring, do you need volunteers and where can people find you?

We don’t have volunteers all year round, but we do calls when we need them, so stay tuned to our social media accounts. We plan to hire a COO this year, so I’d have more time to do lobbying and PR which I think I'm better at, we haven’t published it yet but am very excited for this role.

Chapters
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00:00 // Start
02:36 // Inspiring figures in the movement
05:42 // How to be Vegan Today
10:42 // Balncing work and writing
13:51 // Impact of writing a book to everyday activism
15:51 // The work of Fundacion Veg
23:48 // Approach to campaigning
30:06 // Humanitarian issues
32:01 // Alternate tactics to protesting
37:30 // Biggest successes
41:46 // Senate language case
45:38 // Biggest challenges in Latin America

If you enjoy the show, please leave a rating and review us - we would really appreciate it! Likewise, feel free to share it with anyone who you think might enjoy it. You can send us feedback and guest recommendations via Twitter or email us at hello@howilearnedtoloveshrimp.com. Enjoy!


Ignacia: I think in the last years, our movement is so young here in general, but imagine in Latin America. So, at first we just did replications of what did work in the US or in Europe. And I think just now we are trying to develop our own strategies. But also, we need time and we need resources to do that. And it's not just about money, it's also about talent, and that's also one of our challenges. But it's all connected because as we have less vegan people in our countries, we have less people interested in working on this issue. 


Amy: Hi, my name is Amy. 


James: And my name is James.


Amy: And this is How I Learned to Love Shrimp, a podcast about promising ways to help animals and build the animal advocacy movement. A short but sweet episode this week from Ignacia, author of a recently released book, CEO of a leading organisation in Latin America and mother to two small kids. So, we're delighted that Ignacia took time out to talk to us about her experiences right across her contributions for animals. We chat about Fundación Veg and their campaigns in both diet change and animal welfare, as well as the decision for Ignacio to scale down her organisation and what led to that decision. We talk about the importance of country context in campaigning and the challenges when working in this field across Latin America. We ran into a whole host of technical difficulties during this episode with unstable connections, so please bear with us during the chat. And why not head to YouTube to see if you can spot the point at which an entire day passed before we resumed filming for the remainder of the episode? We really love Ignacia's work and so we hope you enjoy the episode. 


James: Hi, everyone. We are joined today by Ignacia Uribe, who is the founder and CEO of Fundación Veg, formerly known as Vegetarianos Hoy. They're an international organisation working in Latin America to promote plant-based diets and to reduce suffering of farmed animals. Ignacia was also chosen as one of the V-Label Food Heroes in 2023 and she's the author of the book How to Be Vegan Today, which launched last November for World Vegan Day. Welcome, Ignacia. 


Ignacia: Hi, thank you so much, James. Thank you. And hi, Amy. How are you? 


Amy Hi, good, thank you. Thanks so much for coming on. 


James: We'd like to start everyone off with a question about basically, who is someone in the movement that others may not know about and you find them particularly inspiring? 


Ignacia: Yeah, it's a difficult question because I think I find many people so inspiring, but I think someone that you might not know is Marley Winkler from Brazil. She's the founder of the SVB and she now is running the International Vegetarian Union. I think she has been doing this for a long time and she was kind of a grandma in the movement to me when I started. Like, she talked to me about meatless Monday, for example. Or back then, like more than ten years ago, we promoted vegetarian and vegan things in our webpage and she said: ‘Oh, you should only promote vegan things’ or stuff like that. So, I think for me she was very important. 


James: I think SUV or the Brazil Veg Society are a very impressive group. Yeah, I think their Meatless Mondays campaign is particularly successful across Brazil. And yeah, it's an amazing number of meals they are serving vegan or are being served vegan as a result of their work. So yeah, I think they're very impressive and I've never heard of, you said her name is Marley, is that right? 


Ignacia: Yeah, Marley. Actually she started and she convinced someone in the state of Sao Paulo to do Meatless Mondays in all schools. So, I think it's great now. Yeah, she's working in this other organisation right now. I don't know if you know it, International Vegetarian Union, the IBU, it's like a very old organisation. It's like back from the, I don't know, like the seventies. And they are not professionalised or anything, but they are like the keepers of the history of veganism. So, I think it's very interesting to have this connection between generations in our movement. 


Amy: We often speak about the movement being quite skewed young at the moment and I think that it is amazing when you hear and learn about different people who really were pioneers at that time. You think about the lack of vegan options back then, like what you must have to have gone through every day to be a vegan without replacements and alternatives. It's definitely a different time. So yeah, I love learning about people who were pushing veganism back then and not just settling for vegetarianism. It's very cool. 


Ignacia: Yeah, sometimes we forget to see like that there were people before us and yeah, we think everything is new, but yeah, it's amazing what they did with no funding or with anything in their spare time. And yeah, I mean, I think the professionalisation of the movement is very new, but there were also people before, so it's great to know them. And actually that she is from Latin America, it's like wow, you know. 


Amy: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, speaking of, yeah, pioneers, you recently wrote a book Como ser vegan Hoy or How to Be Vegan Today in English. James, you definitely have a one-up on me here doing the intro in Spanish. You've been learning, right, for the last few months? 


James: Yeah, I mean, the perks of travelling in Latin America means, yes, I've learned some things here and there, but probably –  I don't know, maybe I should actually try to read your book, Ignacia.


Ignacia: Yeah!


James: And again, that could be a good way because, like, often the words I know in Spanish are about, like, ordering food or directions, not about, like, veganism. So actually, this could be good for me. 


Ignacia: I know some people that have been practising Spanish through my book. People in Brazil and people in the US. Please join!


Amy: That's cool!


James: Definitely. We could have a Spanish vegan book club. It's a very niche thing, but, yeah, that could be fun. 


Amy: And so, Ignacia, what inspired you to write this book? 


Ignacia: Yeah, I have to say that I'm a journalist, so even before I worked in the movement, I worked as a journalist, and I think almost every journalist wants to write a book. So probably I had the idea of writing a book since I was very young, but I didn't know which kind of book. Like, I always wrote as a journalist in magazines, newspapers, and always wanted to write a book. And then when I started to work in the movement and I left my journalist career, I realized I had to write this book. But then I never had the time, you know, you had this idea in the back of your head, and it's like: ‘Oh, yeah, I really want to write this book’ but yeah.

And I think we need it because of the context. Like the cultural context, Spanish-speaking and everything. We cannot import everything. That's why I think in 2022, one day, I said: ‘Okay, I'm never gonna write this if I don't have a pressure on it, you know? So, I had different ideas. Like, I can apply to a grant to write a book, for example, and then I'll have the pressure of the grant, but then I just contacted Planeta, which is the largest publishing house here in Latin America. It's Spanish, they're from Spain. I contacted Planeta Chile, and I just pitched the idea of the book, and they offered me a contract. So, it was perfect. I was like: ‘Now I have one year, I have to write it.’ Yeah, I didn't know how to do it, how I was going to do it, but, yeah, I needed that pressure to do it. So, I think the inspiration was pressure. 


James: It's amazing you got such a big contract. And that sounds remarkably easy, I don't know. From people who I've heard trying to publish books, apparently it can be quite a big struggle. But it seems like you just contacted the biggest publisher and you were like: ‘Hey, here's my idea.’ And they were like: ‘Great, here you go.’ So, I mean, that's very impressive. And obviously now you did it. The pressure worked, right? So, congratulations!


Ignacia: Thank you. I also had luck on my side because the publisher, the editor, she studied in the same university as me. We didn't know each other, but I think she knew, like, being from the same place and knowing people, like around. She knew I was going to write a book. Okay. We study here. We had these classes. So probably she's going to write the book. So, she trusted me. And also, I think because there were not many books about veganism here, it was also a good opportunity for them. 


Amy: What's the reception of the book been like? 


Ignacia: Yeah, I think it has been very good. In the first two months, half of the copies were sold. So that's very good, at least for me. 


James: Wow, how many copies is that out of interest? 


Ignacia: 3000 copies. 


James: Very cool. 


Ignacia: And it's just in Chile for the moment. So, then they can print in any other country where Planeta publishes, for example, Planeta of Argentina or Planeta of Peru or Planeta of Mexico. They want it. But it's a decision of every country. Yeah. 

The book is not for vegans, of course. And if we get to read it we will probably learn something, but it's intended to non-vegans. If you're vegan and you have a friend that you want him or her to become vegan, you can just give the book to him or to her. Yeah. I hope that those people that bought it, that read it are not vegans because many of them also have wrote to me as: ‘Oh, your book is very inspiring.


James: I think you mentioned before you needed that pressure. Obviously, at the same time you're running Fundacion Veg, which is a pretty large animal advocacy charity running in a few countries in Latin America. So, how did you balance running a large, impressive organisation with also writing a book, which is also no small feat. 


Ignacia: Yeah, and also I have two kids, two small kids. [Laughing]


James: There you go. 


Ignacia: It was crazy. [Laughing]. But what I did was that last year, I think it was the first year that I travelled a lot to conferences after COVID. So, I wrote a lot on the planes. It was perfect because there was no Internet, no one speaking in WhatsApp, no calls, no emails, nothing but my computer. And so, it helped me a lot and this year I'm gonna travel less because I don't have to write a book. And also, I think that the difficult part was to find the tone, how we say in Spanish, like, how you are gonna say what you want to say. But after that, I'll say that 90% of the book, I wrote it in two or three months. After you have that, and you have all the information, it's just writing. 


Amy: Yeah. Just bringing it all together, like, compiling the ideas that you already have in your head is just collating them, right. And putting it into something, yeah, readable and enjoyable. 


Ignacia: What did you say to something like: ‘Oh, I wrote from nine to twelve every day or something like that. [Laughing]. But of course, I didn’t. 


James: Yeah, ‘I woke up at 06:00 a.m… 


Ignacia: Exactly. But what I did was I ran the organisation during the day, and in the night, or in the trips, in planes or in the hotels, I wrote a lot. 


James: I mean, it's a much better use of your plane time. I'll often watch Lord of the Rings for the fifth time or something. So, I think this sounds much more productive. So, I feel inspired that I should be more productive with my travel. 


Ignacia: You know, now I get into planes, and it’s like: ‘Oh my God, I have free time. I don't know what to do.’ [Laughing]


Amy: [Laughing]. Yeah, you can just relax. 


James: Well, I guess, relatedly, would you ever write a book again? Or what are your thoughts on a second book? Maybe on a similar or different topic? 


Ignacia: If I go back in time, I'll totally do it again, like this book. But I don't have the idea of writing another book. I think I can still work with this book for a long time, trying to get it published in other countries, for example, or translated. I have a friend who is also a journalist. She's not vegan, but she read the book. And she said: ‘Oh, you know what? Every chapter should be a book.’ And I was like: ‘Okay, you write it because I'm not good at writing.’ 


Amy: That's great. It must mean that it's very rich with content. If they're suggesting it could be expanded, that's a good feedback to have. And how do you think it compares in terms of kind of impact in your role? Obviously, you founded this organisation. You're the current CEO. It's a big responsibility and having a lot of impact in Latin America. How do you think that does compare in terms of impact relative to that day job. 


Ignacia: ‘It's a very good compliment because I see my job as a professional activist. So, I think the book is a way to get into new places where usually I or the organisation, we didn't have access. Starting for bookstores, for example, like in Latin America: if you go inside a bookstore, you don't see books about veganism. Probably some books about vegan cooking, but nothing else, like no theory or nothing to help you to become vegan. So, I think it's very complementary to my everyday job because I can also recommend the book or use the book in different places. For example, when I do like an interview with a media about the hens or the veggie challenge that we have, I can say: ‘Oh, you know, if you want more information…’ or if someone asks me about that after the interview, I can say: ‘Oh, you should read my book because I speak about this there.’ And I think it's also good because I have got invitations, for example, to speak about the book in different cities and not in vegan places, like literature places, bookstores or book cafes or places like that. I think it's a very good combination of both sides, kind of. 


James: Speaking of your work, I guess I'd be curious to hear more about your work at Fundoción Veg and specifically one of the key programs you work on. And also, what countries do you focus on? 


Ignacia: We focus on Latin America. We decided not to work outside Latin America a while ago. We thought about it, but then we said: ‘No we should keep it here.’ There's so much to do. And we started in Chile twelve years ago, and we have expanded to Argentina, Puerto, Colombia and Mexico. What we do, I think, can be grouped into diet change. So, we promote plant-based veganism all the way. And then we also join our welfare. So, we work with governments, companies, and people, but we don't do everything everywhere. It's dependent on the countries and the opportunities we see where we have different campaigns. Last year we did a very big restructure of the organisation. We were like 40 people and now we are 14, so we shrank. 


James: I think that's a big change. 


Ignacia: Yeah, yeah, it's a big change because I also think, like many organizations just want to grow, grow, and we never talk about that. Sometimes it's better to go backwards and see: ‘Okay, is everything that we're doing right? Are we having the same impact, for example, when we double our efforts?’ So that's what we did. Of course, it was very painful, but at the same time, I really think necessary to keep working in the way that we wanted. 


Amy: I love that, I agree. I think there's so little conversation in the movement around, you know, projects that aren't working as well as we would hope. Or perhaps thinking of ways to double down on the things that are working well and try and reduce that resource, but producing more. It's like a very difficult conversation, isn't it? Especially when you're talking about potential redundancies and people who are so passionate about the topic, you know, potentially having to look elsewhere and work on different campaigns. So, I definitely massively admire your decision-making there. Is there something in particular that was the catalyst for that decision? Something that really stands out as, like, that key moment where you felt like: ‘Actually we should be looking at downsizing as opposed to expanding from here.’ 


Ignacia: We grew very fast the first years. Like, we started being four, then eight, then twelve, you know, and were recommended by ACE, which I think also helped us a lot. But then two years after, we were not recommended for different reasons. Like, one of the main reasons of that was that the first year our countries were seen as very neglected, and then they changed because the movement is also growing here. So, they said: ‘Oh, no, those countries are not very neglected. You don't work outside Latin America, for example.’ I love ACE, but it's very difficult when you lose your recommendation. Of course, we have very good donors, and we have at the same time this board that they see us. And I understand it totally because in some part I agree.
They say, like, we should work as a start-up, you know, like, we should hire as a start-up. Like, try the people, and if they don't fit, they can go away in three months. But then you have donors asking: ‘Which is your rotation rate?’ you know? So, I think it's very difficult to combine both and grow very fast at the same time so that everyone is happy. Yeah, and without the ACE recommendation, I found it very difficult to meet all the expectations that everyone had about the organization. So, yeah, I prefer to say maybe we have to go a little bit backwards, and then if we want to grow, we will have everything that we need in place, because of course we had protocols and many things, but at the same time, when you grow so fast, you cannot have everything that you need. It's not like you work in a company and then you say: ‘Okay, I'm doing these two companies, so I'm gonna see what Adidas did’ and you can study in the university in a class the Adidas histories, you know. We don't have that in the movement, so you don't have the real support to grow that fast, I think, without making many mistakes. So, yeah, I took the decision to go a little bit buffered, and we're not small, we're 14. There are still organisations and very good ones with less than ten people. But I think it's a very good size for us right now. 


James: I think it's a really great decision because I think, yeah, I think too often groups or leaders can be fixated, like: ‘Growth is good. If we just get a bigger budget, we'll be more effective.’ It's just like: ‘We just grow and grow.’ And actually, like you said, your impact isn't necessarily correlated with how big you are. And as someone who ran a small charity, smaller than you guys, fundraising is also stressful. When you get bigger and bigger, because then there's more on the line, it gets harder and harder. So, I think that totally makes sense. Actually, if you think you can be very impactful with a small group, there's no reason not to do that. 

And I guess I'm also wondering, how has it felt for you when you compare more people versus now, do you feel more confident about the team? What do you think is different about then versus what you have now? 


Ignacia: Yeah, I think it's more comfortable and also more – I feel more attached, probably because I have time to meet more often with the team at the same time. Last year, I participated in lead for animals when I was in the middle of all this, it was very helpful. I remember someone explained to us that there are a certain number of people that in an organization or in a work team or a company, that when you reach those numbers, everything changes. And the first number for us was 20 people. And then we were, I don't know, 25 or 28. And I was like: ‘Oh, my God, like, this is true.’ And no one tells you this before, you know. And then I remember the other number was 70. I think now we are below 20 and it's very good and I think if you want to be more than 20, you have to be very prepared. 


Amy: Yeah, I think so many organizations in the movement experience these growing pains. We heard from Carolina, from Sinergia Animal, also Dave Coman-Hidy talks about this really openly. That kind of sense of expansion in the Humane League and moving from that small, really tight-knit team where everyone is aligned on strategy and kind of understands those core values of the organization, and then really kind of branching out into the Humane League now, which must be over that 70 point even. 

And so along with other organisations leading that way, in terms of informing the rest of the movement what it's like to manage that kind of team and those kind of staff numbers in terms of what changes as an organisation and where those priorities need to go, did you have a sense within that of the different campaigns you were working on? Has that also been more kind of focused and streamlined, or have you stuck with quite a broad approach with many different levers that you're trying to pull in terms of impact within the organisation, or was that also focused down? 


Ignacia; Yeah, what we did was that, of course, we stopped doing so many things, but also the administration team shrink a lot because when you don't have that many people, you don't need so much people for administration, which was like, at one point it was like, I don't know, five people in administration because you need someone for talent, then hiring people and then all finance and yeah, so there are many things. So, I think it was a little bit of both. Yeah, I think now we are good because we still have our main programs. And the thing with the programs is not that all of them advance at the same speed. So sometimes we have a program, of course it has its goals, but at the same time, if an opportunity in another country arises, for example with the same program, we cannot necessarily take it. We have every program in every country. So, I think we close some of those lines and at the same time we are open to work and the people of that state are open to work, for example, in another country when they need to. 


James: In terms of actual programs: on the animal welfare side, it's like corporate cage-free work and then some institutional meat reductions, I guess. Is it mainly working with schools, universities, and similar kind of institutions to have a green Monday or these plant-based days and those like the two main campaigns and also some legislative work on plant-based and animal welfare. Is that broadly right? 


Ignacia: Yes, exactly. We do more, for example, cage-free work than meat reduction for corporations. We are just now, thanks to our presidential commitment, working with the government on reducing their meat consumption in some of the offices, for example. So, depending on the country, I think we also meet a lot with big companies like Sodexo and Aramark and those companies to help them to get more plant-based foods to their clients. So sometimes we don't work directly with the university, for example, but we do work with Sodexo, so they put more plant based products, for example, in the university. 


Amy: How have you found utilizing tactics and campaigns that have worked really well overseas, fore example in the US or in certain parts of Europe that have been successful for many years. And then around the time of founding your organisation, how much were you aware of the other campaigns going on in different countries and how have you felt like building them in your own context? What are the kind of similarities and differences to those similar campaigns that are also working elsewhere, like the US? 


Ignacia: I have to say that in my background, I also worked for another organisation, an international one. So, I think it was my first approach and I learned a lot. It was the time when I realised we cannot import everything, when I said: ‘Okay, I need to start my own organisation, because not everything that works in Europe or in the US, for example, would work here in Latin America.’ It's very good to learn, like, all that has been done and then to try things, but then when those things don't work, and I think many of them suddenly don't work here… 


James: Do you have examples of things you can share of, like what didn't work when you brought it over? 


Ignacia: I know, for example, the pressure campaigns work very good in the US and in Europe. Like, people in the companies worry a lot about what the people outside see, like the building with signs and everything. Yeah, it doesn't happen here. Like sometimes the buildings are not in the middle of the city, so they’re just shared, you know, and activities are in front of the building and there is just like highways. And probably because they know that our organisations are not that big here, I think they really don't care that much. Yeah, that's one of the examples. 

I think also it's something about culture. You know, people here don't care about animals as in the Global North, probably because there are more social issues and so many people just think: ‘I don't agree with that.’ But some people say: ‘Oh, and they have said this to me, why are you talking about animals when there are so many kids starving?’ You know? 

Yeah, of course there is like a feeling also inside the whole culture that we have to fight from inside and sometimes we have to change the approaches. That's one of the talents that we have here, to have the time and the resources to think in different strategies and not replicate everything. 


Amy: I think that's so crucial and so relevant for the success that you've had, and the success that many organisations that just start up need to sort of have; the confidence to have developing their own strategies, looking at what works for their country context. I'm interested to know: what is your response to the opposition or people, you know, suggesting that we should be looking at humanitarian issues first? Do you have kind of a statement that you've managed to compile that links some of those issues that people are facing and the animal agriculture industry? 


Ignacia: Yes, we don't have a statement, but of course we try to explain that everything is connected. But I think there is also a very strong cultural thing in Latin America trying to oppose these kind of ideas. And because were already colonized before. So, I think when some ideas come from outside, they have a stronger opposition. For example, it's very common that, I don't know, like I go to the government and I say: ‘Oh, you know what, the health organization already said that meat can cause, like cancer’, for example. They say: ‘Oh, but we don't have Chilean studies saying that isn't.’ But it's like, come on, they already did this, you know. Yeah, I think in Latin America sometimes that has a lot of weight, you know, like this vegan thing that is coming from abroad and it's important. So that's what I think. 

It's very important that we develop our own strategies and we develop our own everything, like our own leaders, our books, our own everything. So, it feels that it's part of our culture and it's not something that we just inverted. 


James: You said you adapted your tactics and you said some of this stuff when you protest outside companies, like that happen in the US and Europe, it doesn't work so well in Chile or other countries in Latin America. So, I'm wondering, how did you innovate and what tactics do you find that work for you to actually pressure these companies or work with these companies to be better at animal welfare or better on plant-based food in lunches or whatever. 


Ignacia: I have to say that we don't do the protest outside the buildings. We have never done it. We are always the good cop because as we work with companies in animal welfare, our tactic is that we're always a good cop because we want also that to work in the diet change. So, if you are the bad cop in welfare, you cannot do diet change. So, I think that has been one of our approaches and that we mix both a lot. For example, if one company does diet change, then we offer them the animal welfare and it works both sides. Like if someone does a commitment about being cage-free, then we offer them: ‘Or you can have a vegan option’, for example. Yeah, we also work in the traditional way, for example, the good cop and bad cop, with other organizations. So, I think that works a lot. But usually, sometimes they get angry because of the protests, and they think we're all the same. And it also maybe backfires, you never know. 

But…what I want to say is that abroad – I don't want to say easy, but usually when I see a campaign (because we are part of the Open Wing Alliance) , for example the launching of a campaign in Europe or in the US, and you see all these organisations coming together, you probably know the results; you know that they are going to have a commitment. Sometimes here it doesn't work that way. So, I don't have all the answers, but I think we have to be innovating all the time. 


Amy: And do you think you have sufficient time from funders, I guess ultimately to be trailing different tactics? A lot of organisations are under pressure to get commitments. That's what we want to see; that's how we're going to have progression. Do you ask for or are you sort of granted opportunities to have time to experiment with different approaches? 


Ignacia: We have not asked for that directly, but we always try, for example, when we write a grant, we try to see which way will be the best way and also have the chance to review, for example, in the middle: ‘Okay, is this working or is that working?’ And then I have had conversations with donors, for example, saying ‘This campaign is not working.’ And I would say: ‘We can change this campaign for other things.’ And sometimes they tell you: ‘I prefer you stick to this campaign’ and I just think: ‘Thank you so much for telling us.’ 


James: Can I try to understand that? So, you were saying you think one of your campaigns isn't working very well, so you want to change it. And they said: ‘No, you should keep it as it is and just keep doing what you're doing. Is that kind of right? 


Ignacia: No, I mean, I said this campaign, like the whole campaign is not working like the way we expected, so we can change this for another campaign, you know, like another adding up probably. And sometimes they say: ‘No, I prefer you to stick enhanced even if it's not working.’ And then we say: ‘Strategize inside that’, you know? So yeah, we're trying different things the same. But sometimes when everyone is doing hen work and you don't have that many commitments in these countries, sometimes they feel like you should try to help other animals, you know? 


James: Is that because you feel like you're almost, you know, exhausting the low hanging fruits, like all the companies that are more likely to commit, you know, have kind of committed by now because you've been working with them for a while? So, everything is just getting harder and harder. Is that your experience? 


Ignacia: Yes, totally. And not just in Chile, also in Argentina or Colombia, actually. For example, one of the things that we stopped when we did this restructuration, we stopped doing the hen work in Argentina, for example, because there were no results. And it's probably the country where people tell you most about, like: ‘Why are you doing this for the animals at the same time that we have all these kids and all these people and everything, you know, in need.’ So, yeah, one of the countries that we stopped was Argentina because we could stop, you know. We will keep trying, but it's very difficult. 


Amy: So, you've spoken about some of the challenges, you know, perhaps expanding quickly and the challenges that brought. What are some of the biggest kinds of successes that you've had as an organisation? And perhaps you could just name a couple that you're particularly proud of in terms of the impact that they've had in the regions within which you work. 


Ignacia: Yeah, if I have to choose, I would choose two. One is the presidential commitment that we have. We got it when Gabriel Boric, which is now the Chilean president, was a candidate; he signed with us a commitment of ten points to help animals and especially farmed animals. So, six or seven of the points were farmed animals. So, we're working a lot on getting him to accomplish this. So now we're working very hard on that. 


Amy: Can you expand a little bit more about what that commitment is and what the point system means? I'm not familiar with the system there. 


Ignacia: I said points because it's like the translation of Spanish, but it's not like he's going to earn points or anything. It's just like it has ten different things that he said he was going to accomplish if he was president. Now he is president. So, one of the things is to support the appeal for buying cages for hens; that's one of the points. Another one is to promote plant-based foods inside the government. Another one is about fish, like welfare laws for fish. So, it's like ten of them, but six or seven are about farmed animals. Just one has been accomplished, which is the one for banning animal testing for cosmetics products. So that one is the first one that he accomplished. We put that on the commitment, but it was a law introduced by other organisations. 

And, yeah, we're working on that. So, we have often meetings, for example, with the team of the president, and we work with them trying to see which are the best ways to accomplish this commitment. 

Another big win: we have been talking for many years with the system that gives the food for the public schools in Chile, so they can have ideally a bigger option, and a plan-based day like Meatless Monday, at least. So now that we have this commitment, we said: ‘Oh, you know what? Now the president has this commitment we can advance and move forward on this.’ And since this year, actually since March when the school system started again this year, they have one plan-based day in every public school. So, I think that is like the other win that was huge for us and it's not for all students, just for the older ones first and then they want to expand to the kids. But we could accomplish that because of the presidential committee’s efforts. And I hope it stays after this president, because we're going to have elections in two years. 


James: That's all amazing. I think to get the president to pick, you know, to commit to ten seemingly quite impressive and broad things to help farmed animals or other animals, I think it's amazing. And then to get every public school to have at least one plan, basically, I think too, a huge win. Congratulations! And, yeah, I guess now is the tough bit of implementation, right. It's trying to chase the president while he still has power, saying: ’Hey, you said you do these nine other things.’ So, I can imagine that's hard but very important work. So, yeah, I mean, those are two huge wins in my eyes. 


Amy: So, there's something else I've seen recently in an update from you and your organisation, which is really exciting, and that was around the Senate language case. I'd love to know more about what happened there and how your organisation contributed to the success of the case so far. 


Ignacia: In 2019, some congressmen introduced a bill to define the term meat. So, they said it is just for animal flesh. And the bill was, we say, sleeping in the Congress for a while. But then in 2022, they started the discussion of it in the agricultural commission, and that's when we decided to step in and participate in the commission discussion. We went twice to the discussion there and then we also lobbied a lot of the other congressmen. But the thing was that these things went a lot worse because some of them asked to include other words such as burgers, sausages, ham; so, they also could not be used if they were not from animal flesh or if they had less than 50% of animal flesh in it. 

So, yeah, that was like, the worst scenario. And then we lobbied the Senate and we got that. They went back to the original bill, the original project, just for meat, like, the meat work and also for probably cultivated meat. And then we also got the minister of agriculture to support this in the final session of the Congress, which was this week. And then finally everyone voted. So now, you cannot use the word meat for plant-based meat or for cultivated meat, but then you can use it for ham or sausages or burgers, when packaged, that they are plant-based. So, yeah, it was very hard because we had to put aside a lot of our own projects that we had during this time to fight this battle. 


Amy: Yeah. 


Ignacia: And, yeah, I think it's kind of a victory, but it's like, I don't know if you use this in English, but we say in Spanish, like a pyrrhic victory. So, you win something, but you are losing so many things on the way. So, I think it was like that. And in the future, we are going to see what is going to happen with the cultivated industry. Because now it's not very developed here. It's just like one or two projects working on that. But probably in the future, when cultivated meat is all in the world,  we will have to take back this issue. 


Amy: And we're seeing this so often, aren't we? This has happened in Europe; there's been cases which other organisations have fought against. Is there something specifically linking those congresspeople with animal ag.? Do they have, like, an outside agenda in order to put that forward? Are they, like, deliberately protecting the animal industry? 


Ignacia: Yes. Especially in Latin America, the political power is very linked to the land. 


Amy: Right. 


James: Shifting gears a bit, I'm curious to hear what you think are some of the biggest challenges facing the movement in Latin America. 


Ignacia: Yeah. For the challenges, I think our culture is the main challenge. Our culture is very linked to meat eating; eating meat in the last centuries. And also, the political power, right? Yeah, it's very linked with the land. So, I think, culture and political power. We are still some years back from what is happening in other parts of the world. 


Amy: So you spoke previously about moving from one organisation to starting your own organisation, perhaps thinking that there was different tactics or ways of working that could improve the situation in Latin America. Do you think there's anything currently that could be done differently to perhaps improve the overall state of the movement there? 


Ignacia: It's a very good and also very hard question because I think in the last years, our movement is so young in general, but imagine this in Latin America. So at first, we just did replications of the work in the US or in Europe. And I think just now we are trying to develop our own strategies, but also we need time and we need resources to do that. And it's not just about money. It's also about talent, and that's also one of our challenges. But it's all connected because as we have less vegan people in our countries, we have less people interested in working on this issue. 


James: Yeah, I think that's a really good point on the talent side of things, because without really good people, it's hard to do amazing campaigns and innovative stuff. And that kind of stuff can also bring in more people. So, it's like, where do you even start if you don't have a really good critical mass to begin with? So, yeah, I think how to have this pipeline of really talented advocates can be hard. And I think when we spoke to Carolina, I think not everyone who works with her is necessarily vegan, because if that was their bar, it'd be very hard to find people in some places for some roles. So, I think it definitely makes sense that the talent is a challenge you guys are pumping up against. 


James: Thank you for sharing all that wisdom and talking about the various bits of whether it's your book and the journey and scaling down your organisation to 14 people. This has all been very interesting to us. 


Ignacia: Thank you; thank you so much. 


Amy: We've really struggled with technical challenges throughout this episode, so we just want to thank Ignacia for her patience recording this great and insightful episode. We usually ask about media recommendations, for which we will link Ignacia's answer in the show notes, and also how you can get more involved in her really important work across Latin America. So, thanks again, Ignacia, for your time and energy in this podcast, and we hope everyone enjoys it!