How I Learned to Love Shrimp

Léo Le Ster on creativity in campaigning

• Amy Odene & James Ozden

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Léo Le Ster is a campaigner at L214, a French NGO focused on helping farm animals. Léo talks to us about L214’s creative campaigning tactics and the importance of open and collaborative brainstorming when it comes to generating new ideas.

Léo gives us an update on the state of the movement in France and insight into their organisation with a multi-tactic approach from investigations and campaigning to education programmes and lobbying.

Relevant links to things mentioned throughout the show:

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00:00 // Intro
02:55 // A recent mistake others can learn from
05:51 // Origin of L214
11:44 // Creative campaigning
26:59 // Brainstorming
32:24 // Seriousness and playfulness
40:14 // Meat consumption by 2030
44:45 // L214 Education programme
48:19 // Politics in France
57:44 // Campaigns during Olympic Games and Tour de France
01:05:17 // Closing questions

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Léo: And the first reactions to their strategy was like, well, this is too harsh. This is too much. We thought, okay, let's give it a try. Let's be harsher and such. And it worked. It worked very well for us. It is uncomfortable to do, to be harsh, especially in our personalities. Like, lots of activists are like, nice people. I don't know how to put it differently. And you're not gonna change your personality, you know. But the strategy, you need to trust it. You need to trust the process and the strategy. It works to be strong, to be firm, to be harsh. It has been shown over and over, and it has worked for us so well. 


Amy: Hi, my name is Amy. 


James: And my name is James. 


Amy: And this is How I Learned To Love Shrimp, a podcast about promising ways to help animals and build the animal advocacy movement. We are back after a short hiatus, so thanks everyone, for bearing with us and what a great episode we return with. We speak with Léo Le Ster, who's a campaigner from French NGO L214. Leo gives us insight into L214's interesting and very successful campaigning tactics spearheaded by their investigations, which once ended up being shown on national television. We talk on the state of the movement in France and how large events like the Olympics this year may not be the best opportunities to utilise for campaigns, but have influenced some unexpected vegan offerings. 


Amy: And it's the last chance to fill in our feedback form. We've had great responses so far, but are really hoping for around 20 more to get a good sense of our readership and what you want to keep you listening long term. So please take five minutes to fill this out - link in the show notes. We'd really appreciate it. Now over to Léo. 


James: Hi everyone. We are joined today by Léo Le Ster, campaigner for L214, a french NGO focused on farm animals and part of the open wing alliance. He started volunteering in 2017 and built a local chapter in Normandy, France. And then in 2018, he joined L214 as a full time campaigner. Notably, in 2016, 70% of hens were in cages in France. As of 2023, only 23% of hens remain in cages. And this is all thanks to corporate campaigns from NGO's across France, as well as, of course, L214. So thank you, Léo, for joining us. 


Léo: Thank you. I'm happy to be here. 


James:  We're excited to talk to you guys because as we'll come on to later, I don't know that much about L214. So I'm very excited to learn a bit more and hear about your work. 


Léo: Cool. 


James: The first question like to start with is inspired by our recent episode with Mahi from Albert Schweitzer. Is what's a mistake you've made recently, either as an organization or maybe individually, that's something that others could learn from. 


Léo: It's hard to know about your mistakes. I guess the worst are the ones you don't know about. So we've made a mistake recently I can talk about, I think, regarding words that we used in a campaign. We have a saying about animal rights, which is there is no need to exaggerate what animals endure because it's already so horrible. And if by mistake you make the smallest exaggeration, not even talking about the exaggeration, just something that can be controversial, that's going to be on you, that's going to be terrible for you, and that's something that happened. I don't know if we can talk about exaggeration, but that was something that was controversial in our public communication and we could have done differently. 


James: Can you kind of say more on what the impact on the organization was? Was it against a corporate target and they actually said, no, this isn't true about us? Or did the media pick up on it or what was the outcome? 


Léo: Yeah, the outcome is, I'm talking about it because the outcome was quite large. We got a lawsuit that is still ongoing. The consequences can be financial. That shouldn't be huge, but it's kind of like a defeat in some way, and it can hurt your reputation, even though we've been- L214's reputation is quite high because we don't make those mistakes. 


Amy: I think that's so interesting. And it's definitely worth remembering that, as you said, the conditions are horrible enough. You know, even just like having animals in cages, like, most of the public would agree that shouldn't be happening. And so you don't need to exaggerate or- I often think that orgs run this risk when they talk about numbers as well. We're constantly saying, like, millions, and it's like- it's just too difficult to comprehend sometimes. Obviously, the number is perhaps not factually correct, which is one challenge. But then secondly, I think there's also this issue of, like, wanting to express the issue in such a grand way that you use big numbers that people can't comprehend anyway. 

Amy: So, yeah, I think that's a really interesting learning and definitely, if it's going to end up in a lawsuit, something that orgs should be mindful of. 


Léo: Yeah. And so that's a very good example you're setting. Because that's the kind of case in which we all had this conversation, which is like, okay, let's try to assess how many animals we're talking about. And it's like, is it in tens of millions? Is it in hundreds of millions? I mean, it would. In my opinion, it would always be better to take the lowest estimation. Just that way you're not exposing yourself and it's already strong enough of a case. 


Amy: Yeah. Awesome. Well, one thing I would like you to talk about is perhaps the name. It's obviously incredibly unique in being called L214. Would you like to just speak to where that name came from? 


Léo: Well, the name is a reference to French law articles from 1976. This is quite a unique old article flow that defines animals as sentient beings. The word sentient can be a whole matter of hours of debates in France on vocabulary. It is defined by the law as sentient beings. And in this one part of the article, it says that the owners of the animals need to place them in conditions that is in accord with their biological needs, etc. etc. An interesting wording that leads us to think this law is never reflected as long as you encage, as you keep animals in a closed farm or whatever. And this is the article case that's being used by lawyers to sue some farms and organizations inside in many cases. 


James: So you're actually still using the same law in your lawsuits today?


Léo: Exactly. When you get in those very long pieces of law case and everything, you will find this L - according to L214, blah, blah, as in L214-1. That was a time where really the matter wasn't. It wasn't a matter in public opinion. The very few seconds you would get on a media, on a television or whatever, when journalists would ask the question that would be allowing you to answer, oh, well, actually, that's because animals are sentient beings. You know, it's recognized by the law. So interesting strategy to bring that up. 


Amy: Yeah, definitely. It's a good window to talk about it more like, as we have just done right now. Like, we wouldn't necessarily have asked the question, so what does it say in french law about sentientism? But obviously, like, having discussed it now, thanks to your name. So, yeah, interesting. So L214 started out doing exposé investigations. That was kind of the initial purpose of the organization, launch of the organization. Can you talk to us about what you know of those early stages and then perhaps moving into the progression from how they went from investigations to a more- a large organisation with many different departments and focuses? 


Léo: This talks about the history of the animal movement in France, actually, which is late in some ways compared to other European countries, especially as the UK. So L214 was founded in 2008. There weren't really many investigations in France. There weren't footage or almost none, and it wouldn't be shown on television and such. So L214 started doing a foie gras investigation, and they quickly moved to other investigations. Especially. There is a big cornerstone dating back to 2015, 2016, when L214 released two major investigations in slaughterhouses. Those footage, they were shown on public television, not only like small television, but like primetime news on major televisions, major newspapers. That did a lot for, you know, L214 and for animal rights in France. This is actually a time where I came into the movement as well, and many others did. 


Amy: So was that because of the footage from L214, like, you saw the footage and then wanted to get involved? 


Léo: Not me personally, but many did. And that could be found online, it could be found in the news, and that gave a reputation, that gave lots of credibility. Before that, it was like volunteer activists. Before. When L214 started in 2008, there was volunteers, very low funding, almost none. And it started growing after this, in 2015, the organization really grew. They already started expanding to other focuses and departments. The fundings that L214 got from this investigation really allowed to work in those different departments. 


Amy: What was the footage of the slaughter? Was it hens or?


Léo: No, there was big mammals. You had cows, sheeps. Terrible footage that were never seen before in France. That did quite a shock. It even led a few years after to a parliamentary investigation in all abattoirs / slaughterhouses in France. Yeah. There is a big cornerstone in that, 2016 or so. Yeah. 


Amy: Awesome. 


James: I saw a presentation I think maybe you gave at CARE conference either last year or two years ago. I don't exactly remember, but I think it was you talking about some of the campaigns that you had done in L214. And I remember watching this video. It was almost like a food delivery video. You're delivering these fake burgers, I guess, on a campaign about the cruelty in this particular burger chain. I don't actually remember who it was, and I remember it being, well, a) like, really well produced and put together and, like, very slick, but also quite interesting and creative and not something I've seen before. So I guess I'm going to curious and learn more about the campaigning tactics you guys use and maybe, like, the creativity. Did you think this, like, am I right, remembering that this kind of creative campaigning is a big part of your work?


Léo: So we're talking about those corporate campaigns, that was actually targeting Burger King, which later on committed to the European Chicken Commitment in France, in other countries before. This can also be linked to investigation, as in the footage, maybe they're not central. These kind of like creative videos that you can find online. Burger King L214 Burger boxes. You know, there are footage of broilers chicken. And they allow us to say that, yeah, we're talking about real things. We're talking about real farms in France that are supplying Burger King. And that's a major, I think, part of the strategy and which makes it successful. I think in many ways, when we meet with companies, with food companies, they know that we are talking about things that is happening right now in France, in their farms, supplying their chain. It's not something, just communication.


Léo: But the communication matters. Indeed, Burger King spends tens, hundreds of millions in communication and marketing. So our strategy is to do the same, but show the truth, show the reality. Those creative tactics, they are very much inspired from creative marketing, from Burger King, for example, which is a very avant garde creative company in France. So it makes for a good target. It was actually an interesting campaign that lasted quite a while, but they ended up being very fair, like many other food companies, when they finally committed, after another round, another campaign and lots of pressure, when they finally committed, the dialogue with them was very productive. They launched vegetarian options that didn't exist before. They did lots of efforts on the communication as well, actually, which matters a lot, communication on vegetarian alternatives. 


Léo: So that was a very good, interesting case for us for lasting campaign that we invested a lot in it, a lot of thoughts, stuff, brainstorming and energy. Yeah, it works. 


Amy: I've been running some creative idea generation sessions with organizations who could perhaps benefit from support with some creative ideas. And I often say in those sessions that because of the budgets that we're working against, as you were saying, like multi-million pound budgets and great ideas, we don't have the multi-million pound budget. So, my goodness, do we need a good idea? It has to be interesting. It has to be something that's going to grab the attention. And clearly that campaign did the job and eventually got them to commit, which is credit to you and the team for coming up and persevering. I think so often you do one campaign and it's like, oh, that didn't work. So maybe we need to change tactic or we need to change to a different target. 


Amy: How do you find the stamina to continue campaigning when they don't fold after one session? 


Léo: Oh, that's a big question. We get tired sometimes, it's fine. I think the engine to this work is you. And you need to know how it works. You need to know which kind of fuel you need for it. For some, it's rage. Rage against the injustice for animals, I think that's a major one that can be turned very productive. That's my case. That's how I get the stamina, I guess. I don't know how to answer it differently. 


Amy: No, I think that makes sense. I have a really funny image in my head because when I witnessed you campaigning was at an OWA summit where you were the one who was nominated to dress up as the big chicken. So to say that you feel your rage just it really makes me laugh to think of you inside this, like, ginormous costume of a chicken, but just really fuming inside. 


Léo: Yeah, I guess it's an interesting topic that makes me think about lots of stuff, including creativity. But I think you can be angry about what's going on. You can feel the need to have fun at the same time, it's not contradictory. Fun is not contradictory to seriousness. And you can also be sometimes demoralized when you see what happens to animals. There is not a huge range of reactions to this, but you can still be an optimistic person. I think the world needs more optimistic, happy, playful activists. 


James: I definitely agree with that as well, because at least my experience with animal rights and also climate activism is often, you have activist groups that are extremely serious and like I said, rightfully so. People don't tend to last very long. It's too intense, too traumatic, and then people eventually burn out and actually stop being involved, which is obviously not ideal. And then in the experiences I've had in Extinction Rebellion and Animal Rebellion, when things are a bit more light and playful and like I said, humorous, you can have both the serious campaigning and this lightness that keeps people going. 


Léo: Right? 


James: Yeah, it's almost like recuperation and. Yeah, I think that’s super important as well. 


Léo: Yeah. And I think we need to be. I mean, it depends. It's something about personality, obviously, but something that can help, maybe, is to take, to be conscious about how you can make quality work while having fun. 


Amy: I'm so pleased you've alluded to this, because it's something I'm really passionate about at the moment. I think often, because it's such a big and serious topic, we think it needs like a big and serious solution. And that just makes for campaigns that are quite samey and aren't really branching out into using humour or you know, more interesting ideas and I think that's a real loss for our space that we feel as though we can't use humour because it's such a, you know, serious topic. When I actually think, leaning into that and encouraging the public to think about these issues from different ranges of emotions could be a real unlock to just get more people talking about the topic. 


Léo: Yeah, right. Yeah, I totally agree with that. 


James: For you, are investigations like an integral part of all maybe the main campaigns? And my sense is at least some of the groups have been doing a bit less of them relative to previous years because actually we've done loads and the media is now less keen to pick them up. So maybe people think, oh, we've done lots. This isn’t interesting, doesn't get coverage, why should I spend. It does take lots of time and effort putting one together. So it seems like groups are doing a bit less and less of them, I guess. What are your thoughts on that? Do you think it's still an essential tool or how do you think about it? 


Léo: We are experiencing the same as other organizations in terms of attention and interest. Maybe not to the same strength, maybe, but comparatively speaking, our investigation used to get much more coverage in the past. That's not, that's not a secret. Which doesn't mean that the strategy is not working anymore. The strategy is still to put the footage out there, show that it exists and then you build a campaign above it. We still need to work a lot on price relation. That's a big topic. I love that actually. And we spend a lot of time thinking about it. That's a key component of our campaigns. The press, obviously. The base strategy, maybe it's obvious, but I will say it. But it's a fight about reputation. That's the only strength we have over those corporations, over those companies. We cannot force them to do anything. 


Léo: We can only say the truth about what animals endure for them, for their supply chain and when they will find that it's costing them more in terms of reputation to keep not committing, rather than committing to what we ask, which is something reasonable, something that everyone, every other company is going to be ending up doing. So then we are gaining over and then we can expect them to commit. Speaking about investigation in those campaigns, we've been talking about creativity, having fun, burger boxes. But I think a key of L214's campaign is that they are far from being mild. They are very tough, very aggressive, very controversial. We show hardcore stuff. We show them in picture, we use big words, we don't undertone it. When I said earlier, you don't need to exaggerate. Doesn't mean you should undertone it.


Léo: We're not trying to be nice. We're not trying to be loved. We are trying to say the truth. And I think this is something to be remembered, because those companies, I mean, there are people who are professionals, who are, even when we've been tough, we have so many experiences of relationships with some executives where it got very heated, and then after, it got extremely productive and professional and nice, if you will.


Amy: Do you think that's something to do with France, that you can push those boundaries and you can be a bit more harsh? Do you think it's cultural? Is it worth trialling and pushing in other contexts? 


Léo: Obviously, there is a cultural component to it that I would not be able to analyze right now. There was an organization called The Human League that some of my colleagues were able to meet, and the first reactions to their strategy was like, well, this is too harsh. This is too much. We thought, okay, let's give it a try. Let's be harsher and such. And it worked. It worked very well for us. It is uncomfortable to be harsh, especially in our personalities. Like, lots of activists are, like, nice people. I don't know how to put it differently. And you're not gonna change your personality, you know, but the strategy, you need to trust it. You need to trust the process and the strategy. It works to be strong, to be firm, to be harsh. 


Léo: It has been shown over and over, and it has worked for us so well. It is uncomfortable. You get threatened. You get actually sued sometimes. 


Amy: Yeah. 


Léo: And of course, you need to mitigate all this risk. Obviously, I'm not saying be careless. Maybe, at least for me, I know there is something of a rage in me that says, yeah, this is fair compared to what animals are enduring. We're not being harsh. 


Amy: Yeah, definitely. 


James: Can you say more about how you're aggressive or how you're harsh? I'm trying to actually conceptualize. Is it in the one on one conversations? Is it in the billboards and the comms you're doing? I would love some examples of how you actually do this. 


Léo: Yeah, it's both. Indeed, in the conversation, same thing. We can be both polite and firm. There is lots of strategy, of psychology, of negotiation going on in those rooms and everything. Out there in the campaign. It is very often worth showing the hardcore things that is happening in those forms. 


James: So you mean the worst footage you find? That's the stuff you'll talk about and you'll put out there? Is that what you mean?


Léo: There are few cases of footage that were too- too much? Yeah. We are rational beings and emotional beings, and there is no taboo talking about emotions and translating them in words because we're talking about photos, about footage, but then we translate them in words and it is fine. I think it is normal and is acceptable to translate those into words that are anger when the suffering of these animals is such. 


Amy: Yeah, for sure. And I think that hybrid of being a passionate and kind person, empathetic person, and then, you know, still holding on to that rage and transforming that into effective communication and negotiation, I think, is something that is really great in our movement. And I think there's a few, like, key players who demonstrate that really well. For example, like Aaron Ross, who I think just epitomizes, like, you can be incredibly kind and a good, you know, really great person, but also translate that rage and anger into really great work. 


Amy: And I would recommend his, I think it's also his CARE talk that we'll link in the resources about negotiation and how it's about strength, but being fair and being practical with what you're asking and how, and the approach and exactly that, you know, coming in the right attitude, recognizing that they're people and that you're trying to convince them of something. I think that rings true to a lot of my experience of the really great negotiators in the movement. 


Léo: Sometimes in our campaigns, we are bothering, we are a pain in the ass. We are addressing real people working. They have their eight to five job, they have their families, and they are nice people, and you don't want to bother them. But you need to remember, at least in France, there is a notion about how, when we are, like, causing some disturbance to a company, how much is this company able to defend itself? Usually those companies are so much bigger than us, they have so much energy and time and people and resource to defend themselves. And in many cases, judges ruled that our approach, even though it could be considered aggressive, it was measured, it was balanced compared to what the company can take. 


Amy: Yeah, interesting. How do you start to brainstorm for a campaign and keep things exciting? We talked about creativity, coming up with new ideas. What's your approach within your campaigning team to keep that energy and that stamina for new ideas? 


Léo: We like to challenge each other in our team. We are not afraid of healthy competition. We have brainstorming sessions that are positive and etcetera. But then we need to assess risks. We need to assess the weakness of such idea. That's the part that makes the idea much more stronger. And we're not afraid of this. We are lucky to have an organization that's very, in some ways, very horizontal, but it's not, I don't want to say the word, because it's not that way. There is hierarchy. There is a sense of hierarchy, but within this hierarchy, there is lots of freedom to express. That's what I meant. There is lots of freedom to experiment. There is lots of freedom to try. And, of course, there are some security around that. 


Léo: Like, if some action is deemed risky, we will bring that up and we will try to find something to make it more secure. 


Amy: Yeah. 


Léo: But I think it's an important aspect to be bold, not be afraid to clash. Yeah. This is something that we enjoy doing. 


Amy: Yeah. And it's a hard balance, right? Because you want a room where normally, virtually also, which is really difficult to be, like, creative as a team when you're all sat on a call. I personally much prefer to be in a room writing on things and generally expressing in that way. But there's a balance, isn't there, between having a moment where all opportunities are yeses. So, like, yes, great idea. Let's build on that. Yes, yes, yes. No idea is a bad idea. Get them all down. But then there has to be, like, a rigorous review process of, like, okay, practically, like, what can we actually take forward? And I think perhaps organizations fall into a trap of, like, too much criticism in that initial stage. 


Amy: So, like, you feel like you can't contribute anything because maybe your idea is going to be, like, shot down, or someone will say instantly, like, oh, well, that wouldn't work because of a legal perspective, but maybe it was the next idea that was coming after that one that would have worked. So there's definitely this balance between, like, that initial safety and space where you can just practise generating ideas. Then the refinement, which obviously, you know, maybe a legal team or some leadership needs to be involved in. Do you find that struggle, or is it, like, more difficult for new members of staff to understand that? 


Léo: I mean, you put it so much more clearly than I could have, so thank you. What I would comment about this is I find that in our organization, most difficult part is maybe the second, the refining difficulty. I think we sometimes lose a lot of time on it. We waste time by being too. Trying to be too nice. 


Amy: Do you mean too nice to each other because you don't want to offend someone's idea or too nice to the idea? 


Léo: Well, I guess it goes both ways. The refinement process is something very rational. There is a part of unknown sometimes, but the risk assessment is something that, at the end of the day, someone needs to take account for the risk assessment and need to close it. And that's something that's sometimes wasting time in our process. One thing that in my team, we are very careful about and aware of is the bias, the risk of saving it for later. You know, like, oh, it's not good enough. The perfection mindset, state of mind, you know, like, oh, it's, we don't have enough time, this idea, because lots of ideas, they kick in the process, ongoing, and you're like, oh, so we have three weeks to do it. We can't do it. No, we're gonna do it. We're gonna do it because it's not gonna happen later. 


Léo: Many people and organizations can relate on how many ideas were brought in, and they were like, oh, we're gonna save them for later. And you never get around to it. 


Amy: And there's that testing phase, isn't there? There's somebody that I kind of follow. She does the marketing for Stephen Bartlett, who has the most, The Diary of a CEO, the most successful podcast in the world, I'm gonna say. And she says about those really early stages of, like, really treasure that opportunity, especially if you're a new organization that you can just test things. You can just, like, really treasure that. Don't see it as a burden, that, like, oh, but I just want, like a million followers on Instagram. It's like, no, like, test everything, try everything, because there's not that many people coming back at you. You know, you don't have that brand responsibility of, like, oh, God, you know, she, now she can't just say anything. She can't just test new ideas, because if it goes wrong, it's like this huge empire that could fall. 


Amy: So actually really benefiting from those early stages to just throw some things out there and see what's happening, see what's going to work. And I think a lot of early organizations could really benefit from that approach to just try trial and error. 


Léo: Yeah, totally agree. My experience of creative thinking is about, again, playfulness and being light about it. So I would recommend, when I think about that, I'm not so big on pep talks and such. I don't watch those. But I did watch an amazing talk from John Cleese, a Monty Python who's actually a doctor in philosophy, amazing person who gave a speech about creativity. And I remember that so vividly how he made this speech, starting to explain the difference between seriousness and playfulness and humour that you can make jokes and still be serious, which he does make. While he's talking about this, he keeps making jokes. 


Amy: And the jokes are going to last the test of time. It's like a talk from the nineties, isn't it? I feel like some of them are a little risky for now, but you get the idea. 


Léo: Yeah, I didn't watch it in a while. That was maybe ten years ago or something. I do remember that he tried to give some jokes. His point was nothing complicated. But he says it takes time to go in an open mode, to go in a mode that allows you to be creative when you are on your day to day life and doing your list and blah, blah, there is no way you're gonna switch and shift in a second. It's like psychological, neurological. You're not gonna be able to play and get out of the box like that. 


Léo: So you need to take time to do nothing, do something else, whatever, and play and bounce a ball on the wall, you know, I mean, like, literally, in our work, which is very specific, it is interesting to benchmark, to check what other organizations are doing and such. And I think many of our good ideas, they were actually built from two different ideas, two different things that have been done before. Like, for example, I'm thinking about this campaign that we did against a major broiler producer, LDC, in France. That was their number one brand, Le Gaulois chicken brand. Some companies, I remember McDonald's, they did open days in the, in their farms, obviously, that would be very, you know, controlled and everything. And we thought, oh, this open days in a farm is amazing. 


Léo: I mean, if people could only see what's actually in a farm when it's not like little chicks and it's been cleaned up and everything, you know, like, if people could only see that, how could we do that? Okay, let's keep that on the side. And then that was a time when we used a lot of advertising trucks, you know, because it's so convenient. You know, you put a huge billboard. When you cannot get the billboard in the streets, in front of the company's hq. You know, you get a truck that can actually park right in front of the headquarters. So you get your picture, you get your people, your protests, and you have all, it's all in one picture. So it's like this thing with the truck, with bringing it. That's totally. There is a connection here. 


Léo: We are thinking how to bring people to the farm. So why not bring the farm to the people. And that's what we did. The animals less obviously, there was no ethical way to bring animals in the truck. We put actual, real litter, a genuine litter from an actual farm of theirs in the truck. We put televisions showing the footage of the farm to recall the chicken. We put actual feed plates. We did a real thing, miniature, of course, and we invited, actually, we invited passerbys, which is something that we would see in their reaction. And obviously, they would hate the smell. They would think it's loud. There was obviously the sound of the birds and everything. We didn't expect it was so bad. Blah, blah, blah. We brought politicians and they told us that led to a very much more qualitative talk with them. 


Léo: Much more productive than just talking about. So those chicken, they are 20, they don't have natural light, blah, blah. Well, you can actually experience that right now. Put on your boots and come in the truck. And that's it. So that's an example of, you know, two ideas brought back together. 


James: I don't know loads about L214, because my sense is that you've been a bit further from, like, the effective animal advocacy community, whatever that means. But I guess I'm curious to know more about you guys. Is there anything unique about how you guys work as an organization or things you guys do that makes you particularly successful or just different to other groups? 


Léo: It's hard to talk about L214 as a monolithic structure. It has changed so much in the past years. We went from about 45, 50 staff in 2016. 2020, we were already 80 and 100 right now. Talking about animal advocacy, advocacy in general. There are some people who are indeed in the movement for a while and some other who are. Who have not been, you know, volunteering or whatever, handing leaflets. And that's fine. We need both for different things. 


James: Yeah, I don't know. It was so, like, 100 people is actually much bigger than I thought. It's a totally flat salary for everyone. And it's a french median salary. I think that's super interesting. Can you say more about that structure? 


Léo: Yeah, that's something that's very dear to many people in the organization. It was set as the median to be something fair. It is something that allows us to work full time for animals. We have a budget, 2023, around €9 million. 75% of the budget, a bit more than 75% of the budget is from donations, small donors, and we have a 16% share from the Open Philanthropy. 


James: A very large portion is some small dollar donations. I think that's quite amazing. 


Léo: That's been built over years. As I said, the popularity of the organization was built over years. And I think it has something to do also with the fact that no one else was doing it in France. Before we had the RSPCA kind, we had the PETA. There wasn't, like, a radical organization that was doing both, like, radical goals, but, like, reformative and progressive, and accepting some welfare strategies. That was, there wasn't none of those in France.


James: I'd be curious to learn more about that particular thing. I think that is a bit unique in that when you have abolitionists kind of like ultimate goals you have, you don't really accept incremental welfare reforms. Like, for example, I used to work for Animal Rebellion. Our goal was end animal farming and fishing, or like, a plant based food system. And we didn't really work on anything incremental in the middle, were just like, we'll do these big protests and these campaigns, and it was a bit everywhere, and weren't ever trying to get incremental welfare reforms or any kind of that much incremental stuff. It seems quite unique that there's this, I think on some linked websites, it says, abolish meat, shut down slaughterhouses. So you have pretty radical goals. Then, obviously, you still work with companies on BCC and cage free. 


James: I'm curious, how does this tension work within the organization? Do you think it works well, or how did it come about as well? 


Léo: When L214 started, it was quite unique to bring up such a radical idea about how we should treat animals, not treat them, actually. Back in 2015, 2016, that was never heard before. People in France, they started getting online, learning about it. Some did earlier, of course, but there weren't so many. But I guess a strong mass discovered the issue in around 2015-2016, and there were lots of debates. They were pretty strong. Abolitionists versus welfarists, 2016 to 2020, I would say. And what changed is that, well, lots of people from L214, I know there, did amazing work debating these issues. Our case was found to be quite strong with this welfare strategy. We started from 70% hens in cages in France in 2016, and today it accounts for 23%. 


Léo: And the people in the industry, the executives, the heads of the industry, they are saying, like, the end of cages is near. It is gonna happen. Obviously, this is not the end for animal movement, but it is. I think everyone can assess that. It's a victory. So we're gonna keep pushing for these victories, and we're gonna keep being radical. L214 actually decided to focus its strengths on a new goal for the whole organization. It's a 2030 goal. We want to reduce meat consumption in France by 50% by 2030, which is a very ambitious goal. We have victories about welfare indeed. And we find that meat consumption in France has not decreased yet. It's kind of a plateau, unfortunately. I think that's what happens in many countries. But this average consumption is orientated to smaller animals, which leads to more animals being killed. 


Léo: We needed a goal to reduce the amount of animals being bred and farmed and slaughtered for food. 


James: Can you say more on how you think you'll achieve that, what kind of campaigns you'll do? Because I know some- 


Léo: We don't know, we're just improvising. We're gonna make mistakes. We are impatient. That's something that I thought when we talked about brainstorming, about strategy. You know, it's often deemed something negative to be impatient. I think it's good to be impatient sometimes. We found that the food industry is the key sector holding the power over animals. I mean, the political sector is obviously an important one as well. That is to put in relation. But we will focus a lot on corporate demand. We don't have the wordings yet, we don't have the strategy. Exactly, but it is going to be an ask about 50% reduction, about a reduction of meat. Food companies will have to put in the necessary means, and they will have to commit to an end goal in their supply chain, distributors, the spare markets. They have strong power in this. 


Léo: They need to have a goal and a commitment for what they sell. Same for the fast food area. And the producer will need to follow the movement as well in the offering. Alternatives, more alternatives.


Amy: Lots of great initiatives. Clearly, lots of different avenues for change L214 are working on. So you've got the corporate campaigning, you've got your investigations. Now we're hearing about some diet change work, and you also have an education program. Would you like to speak to this and perhaps how that is looking to make change for animals? 


Léo: Well, I cannot speak much about it, to be honest. It's not really my area. It is an amazing team that's doing amazing work that's been also very controversial. They were confronted with lots of resistance from the industry. The industry is already in the schools for a very long time in France. I don't know about the rest of the world, but they do trips to the farm, come on and drink some milk, eat the meat, look at the animals. They're happy. It is an ambitious work to come after that and to be like, okay, so here is another thought on that, another point of view. And I am very admirable of my colleagues doing that. I think they do it amazingly. They are editing quarterly magazine for youth. The quality of it is, honestly, I can say that I have no part in it. 


Léo: It is extremely qualitative. Talking about history, psychology, ecology, geography, biology obviously. Every angle is accounted for. To talk about not only farm animals, but there is a focus and there is a thing about farm animals, but not only. You have interviews from inspiring people, lots of graphics, drawings and everything. And obviously its age appropriate. So I was talking about how we like not to be mild and talking about education. Obviously it is much milder in graphics and in words, but that's actually a performance to be able to say the truth in words that are appropriate. So shout out to the team. And I've done some school presentation and all in high school and such, which is much easier. They are adults and that was amazing experiences to be confronted with young adults from, I don't know, 16 to 20. 


Léo: If we're talking about the strategy, I think it's quite obvious that it's interesting to be able to show another point of view about animals, to say the least, to people who are able to change their mind and who are going to be consumers and citizens for the next 60 years. 


Amy: Yeah. 


James: It's funny you mentioned the school trips. I actually, when I was ten years old, I think I also went to a farm on a school trip and drank some milk. In this case a goat, I think a goat's udder. Anyway. 


Amy: Oh, wow. 


James: I know.


Amy: Directly from the udder?


James: Yeah, yeah. Squeeze into my mouth. Yeah, yeah. Looking back, I'm like, wow, that's extremely weird. 


Amy: I mean, they still offer. So you get there's like free cow's milk to schools in the UK. So they. We have for like healthy bones. Right, right, yeah. They get a glass of milk as a break- in their break on a morning. 


Léo: Yeah. Same story here with strawberry syrup. Sometimes in the morning. Yeah. 


Amy: Not from the udder, thankfully. 


Léo: Not at all. 


James: Maybe we can ask about another team within L214, I guess the political team. I'm curious to hear what you guys work on in the political context. Obviously, France is a challenging place, I think, to work. But I'm curious, what kind of activities does the L214 political team work on and how's it going? 


Léo: It is politically peculiar, I think - France. Recently, the government, the majority, they try to bring in a law to forbid using words such as steak or sausage for plant alternatives. So the industry is working very strong for a very longer time than we have with politicians. Our political team is doing an amazing job in what we can call lobbying in some ways. But also I think it went from some important task from L214, which is to inform and to give knowledge and power to the people, to citizens. And that's what started our politic animal- politics and animals website observatory. It's kind of like it's a Wikipedia for animals and politics. It's a catalogue of every politician's position, which can be translated to a vote law proposal speech in front of a media or something. 


Léo: Any position that does good for animals or that does bad. So it's recorded that way. And there is a mark, a note that's given to this position, plus or minus. The algorithm is then transparent and open source and everything. And it gives a grade for every politician, individual and every political party. That's a very interesting tool that we know is being used a lot by politicians, by journalists, by observers. It's a lot of work from contributors. We have volunteer contributors who are doing an amazing job, but we have also staff members, obviously, that are doing this job. So this is really the foundation of this team. 


Léo: They are using that to now they are leaning more and more into demands, kind of like corporate demands, but for politicians, for town halls, like cities, this has shown good results in political elections, local politics, and we've done a little bit of more national presidential election. Some observations, analysis that we integrated into this website, this observatory. 


James: I think it's an amazing website. We'll definitely share it below because, yeah, it's such a big wealth of information and yeah, there's stuff in the UK that's a bit similar, but they don't ever include animal welfare. They include other issues, but they don't include MP's voting on animal welfare. So I think this is a really cool one that you have. And it'd be cool to have this for each country, basically. 


Léo: And obviously I didn't mention it, but at the end of the page on to check what your local MP is voting for, whatever you have the option to click and tweet, to click and mail, to, you know. So all this data is there. It's getting AI powered here. 


James: You can't go an hour without mentioning AI. So I feel like someone had to say it. 


Léo: What time is it? That's checked? 


Léo: It's actually very promising. The work they are doing. It's our web and coding team with some exterior staff and everything they are doing a job that's mind blowing, that will lead to what we want, which is much more information and much more power to. To act. It's not so recent that I found from where I don't know the legitimacy to actually talk to a politician. I can imagine how 99% of the people are like, who am I to even talk to them? Well, you actually should, and we are giving you the tools to do so. So it's not a gadget, it's power, and it's very promising. And I think it will give good effects. And we already have some background on it. And there was a law proposal in France in 2018. I want to say 2018, I think.


Léo: For the end of cages in France, and at the time it was much more simple, but we already had those tools and they led to probably lots of MPs. They told us it was the largest citizen lobbying they've gotten later. 


James: Oh, wow. That's amazing. 


Amy: Wow. 


Léo: Yeah. So, I mean, this is linked to something that we already know as well, which is that people care about animals and people who care about animals. 


James: Yeah. They care enough to do stuff about it. 


Léo: They just need the tools. 


James: Yeah. I guess I'm curious to hear more about. Yeah. France generally, I think French culture and like meat, it is very intertwined. And I think, like you said, France has done some, or tried to do some negative things on labeling of plant based products. Can't use certain words, all this kind of stuff. What are the main challenges that you face? Maybe on the political landscape or maybe culturally? And is there any ways you've changed your work as a result to suit that context? 


Léo: The intensive farming sector found its way to start cooperation with the police. They had a cooperative cell, police cell, that is watching any critics and aggression to the farming world, to the farming industry, which is quite crazy. It was started in 2019. We had some human rights organization helping us and attacking this new police cell. They removed the surveillance aspects of it because they had some surveillance means and goals, and they managed to take it down, bring it to the highest court in France. So there are some disturbing and very aggressive moves from the industry, and they have their entries in the political world, for sure. That can be found in French culture, traditions, food, meat, etcetera. Obviously, it is also linked to a sector that is very powerful and very heavy. 


Léo: France hosts the number one broiler producer in Europe, number one cow meat producer, I think milk product, we are amongst the leading industry. This weights heavily in the balance when we're talking to politicians, for sure. This is a challenge, but it doesn't mean we're still gaining lots of attention. And there is only one way that can go. The industry needs to adapt to the change that the world needs, and lots of them know about it. Maybe they were just a bit slower in France and they were a bit slower, but they will adapt and they are adapting. 


Amy: Just to clarify on this sell point. So this is a collaboration between the industry and the police so that there's a dedicated space to survey people who are working against the industry? 


Léo: Exactly. And that was obviously, there was lots of communication to tone it down, to make it nice, to make it legitimate, which was like, yeah, we are defending farmers against, you know, theft. You know, like, they get their GPS stolen very often, which is actually when you go in the files of what is filed down as a complaint, as a- it's like 90% or more of the complaints. They are just theft that have nothing to do with animal rights, you know, GPS and fuel. But they take that and in a small line later they say, oh, and we also do surveillance on whatever can be criticizing and demining animal husbandry.


James: Wow, it's crazy. 


Léo: They also did that for environmentalist groups, you know, which allowed them to do some police raid on public meetings for environmentalists and some police force to do investigations about. Investigation about investigations on animal rights. 


Amy: Something I'm intrigued to talk about in France, so you're hosting the Olympics this year, and I wondered if you tend to plan around these large scale events. Is it a good opportunity to utilise some public attention and some campaigning? I know also the Tour de France is one of the most televised sporting events, like, ever. Are these good opportunities for you to capitalise on that type of media attention, to try and make some noise for animals? 


Léo: Well, the opportunity is obvious, as you stated it, and with. We had our attention on it for a while, especially since, for example, the Tour de France hosts partners that are like our campaign targets. So we've been trying, but we don't have so much background on it. But from the small experience that we've had, and I'm going to talk about my opinion on it, is that this kind of events, the Tour de France, is so large, so secured, that it is difficult to get any attention in it. Our experience in France is that the little we've done with posters, billboards, things on the side of the road, for example, you have the Tour de France on the asphalt, you can write encouragements for the cyclist and everything. So we thought, hey, we're going to put in our message, yeah, it's not happening. 


Léo: You can put it, and then there's a guy watching it, like, right behind you before the cyclists come in with the cameras. And even if you find a way to actually do it, the producing team of the Tour de France, they have a little delay that allows them to, and they are amazingly skilled producers that will shift the focus of the camera, whatever you do. The only thing that in the past few years have gained attention was actually Extinction Rebellion, or another group, kind of the same in France, that managed to glue their hand to the asphalt and delay the Tour de France. So that's a pretty radical thing that leads to big lawsuits and such, which is not something at the time that could be an option for us. 


Amy: And I guess they're saturated, right? Because all groups want to. Everyone goes, oh, big event. Like, let's get our message there. Let's get our message there. And actually, perhaps it's the quieter moments, like in the aftermath of something like the Olympics, that's going to take over the city where there's not that much, there's not that many stories, there's not much to talk about where you can capitalize on a moment of stillness or some quiet from the press. 


Léo: Exactly. It's all about adapting. And when you talk about this, it makes me think about a big advice I can give to other groups is to capitalize on local press. I don't know about other countries, you know, how it works and everything, but it's shown very good results for us in France. The local press is going to be interested in a protest in front of a Subway restaurant in the city all the time, and you don't need to invest so much in doing so. You know, a few placards, leaflets, and I'm not demining it. It's work, and you need to do it right. It gives a good results, it's good pressure, and it's. And it's good grassroots work. You know that actually you are seeing people, you are leafleting, which is something that's very dear to me. 


Léo: That's how I started, and I still believe that's kind of like an amazing way to advocate. You meet new volunteers, and it's this kind of thing, like we've been talking about how you learn by doing. And it's the same with the volunteer movement. You gain volunteers by volunteering and by protesting. The more you do, the more you get. I think it is that simple. Obviously. Do it right. Don't forget about social media, blah, blah. But at the end of the day, you gotta be there. And it works so well for movements. It's so precious. We should not give up this kind of work. 


Amy: Well, thanks, Léo. I feel like, yeah, that took us on a journey that I certainly was very interested in, particularly from the creative side. I'm extremely biased on this kind of topic, but great to see and hear about those working in practice and the ways in which you're bringing that type of creativity into the work at L214. We do close off by just asking about some news that you're perhaps grateful for or excited about recently. And actually, for me, going back to the Olympics, I saw that they're offering 60% vegan food to the public and they've committed to 30% for vegetarian for athletes, which is exciting. It's getting some press here. I saw that on a few social feeds. So it's interesting that such a big event is having some narrative conversation around diet change there. 


Léo: Yeah, that was an amazing news. That was unexpected. Totally unexpected from what I know. At least we did nothing for it. And I don't know whether another group, another organization did anything about it. 


Amy: Just claim it. Claim it. 


Léo: I mean, I think we all agree that there is no point. It's like. And it's even better. I mean, if that's how it is. 


James: That means it's happening organically. Exactly. 


Léo: It's even better. I mean, so many good news and talking about organically good news, we see. I talked about how we're coming from very far, from a very low amount of alternatives in France. Very difficult to eat at the restaurant and everything, and it's getting better. I was in Brittany the other day for holidays and everything, and I find that more and more restaurants in France, they offer vegetarian, vegan alternative, which they didn't 5-10 years ago. The supermarkets, which is an even more important part, I find they are offering more and more alternatives. And I think we are still lacking in linear metres, in density of those fridges. We need more space, but the products are there and they are good. Also, the quality is getting higher. It's making me so optimistic because I think that's the way it's going to work. 


Léo: We're going to change the face of what supermarkets have to offer. The same way we see in Germany, in the UK. When you go there, obviously, compared to France, your eyes are full of stars. This is the future. And it's happening. It's already happening. Even in France. Yeah. 


James: You mentioned a few pieces. Well, a few interesting videos you'd like to recommend. Are there any other kind of media recommendations you'd have to people, articles, books, videos, etcetera? 


Léo: I'm not good with that. I have no advice to give you. I don't. You know the work of Peter Singer on his dear friend, an activist, Henry Spira. It was translated in France very lately. I mean, it's already, it must be six years at least now. Maybe, maybe less. But that was an important reading for me. It's like a fundamental strategy book to me. But more importantly, we talked about stamina, about being a good activist or whatever. I think it's important to be happy, to do whatever makes you happy, to find your place, and it's important to get your nose and your head in something else. If you like reading novels, do read novels. It's not going to take anything away from your passion and work with animals. Quite the contrary. 


Léo: It is good to be anchored, to have a foot in reality. We sometimes suffer, I think we sometimes suffer from delay and difference between the world that we see in our eyes how it should be and how it is really. And when we find out, oh, people are not moving fast enough, it's like we should be in constant contact with the world, I think. 


Amy: Yeah. The real world.


Léo: To be aware. Yeah. 


Amy: Yeah. Well said.


Léo: So don't forget to watch, you know, Hollywood movies. I mean, you don't need to watch Ted talks all the time. 


James: Well, I'm hopefully going to watch Deadpool vs Wolverine. 


Léo: Right. Certainly. Amazing marketing. You can pick, you can pick stuff from it. You know, just turn off your advertisement blockers and stuff like that. You need to watch those. Watch those. 


Amy: Get spammed.


James: It's good life advice. 


Amy: Yeah. Nice. And is there any kind of final pitch for L214? Are you hiring? Do you need volunteers? Obviously. Donations, of course. Anything else you want to plug at this point? 


Léo: Volunteering in France is amazing, I think. It was an important part of my life. I enjoy doing it so much. So if you find yourself listening to this and you think you are not made for it, this is normal, and it doesn't mean you shouldn't try. This is what we do. We try to make L214 a tool for everyone to appropriate. So if you feel like you want to just use it however you want. I think it is always good to start small and, oh, I'm going to join a local chapter. We have 40 of them in France in. 


Amy: Wow, amazing. 


Léo: 40 local chapters in every region. You can join and give a few leaflets. That's going to be an amazing experience for you. 


Amy: Well, thanks so much Léo. Again, really insightful episode. Lots in there. Again from a different context, really different political setting. It's always really fascinating to hear about really great campaigning work in the region. So thanks again for coming on and yeah, I hope everyone enjoys the resources and the episode. 


Léo: Yeah, thank you for the opportunity and send me a message about those videos. Tell me what you thought.