Kat Rhadans - No Wine in the Carpool Line

In this episode of the Reframeable Podcast, host Kevin Bellack speaks with Kat Rhadans, a mother of five and addiction recovery advocate. Kat shares her personal journey of struggling with alcohol addiction, the impact it had on her family, her path to sobriety, and the stigma surrounding female alcoholics. Her initiative 'No Wine in the Carpool Line' takes aim at changing the narrative around motherhood and addiction where she emphasizes the need for empathy and understanding in recovery, highlighting that every individual's journey is unique. This conversation highlights the power of sharing one's story to help others and the ongoing journey of personal growth in recovery.

Katherine “Kat” Rhadans is a mother of five, author, speaker, and addiction recovery advocate based just outside Kansas City, Missouri. A passionate supporter of recovery in all its forms, Kat emphasizes that no two journeys to sobriety are the same. She believes in meeting individuals where they are with empathy and compassion, recognizing that recovery often requires a unique combination of approaches tailored to each person.

Kat has been featured on podcasts, in magazines, and on television, and she has collaborated with alcohol-free and low-alcohol brands around the world.  Her popular Instagram platform, @No.Wine.In.The.Carpool.Line, boasts over 35,000 followers, where she hosts weekly LIVE shows that inspire and support others on their recovery journeys.

Katherine is a stay at home mother while enjoying a writing and speaking career on the side. She has a Self Help Book coming out next year.

www.nowineinthecarpoolline.com

Instagram @no.wine.in.the.carpool.line

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Transcript

Kat Rhadans - No Wine in the Carpool Line
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​[00:00:00] 

Kevin: Welcome everyone to another episode of the re frameable podcast, the podcast that brings you people's stories and ideas about how we can work to reframe our relationship, not just with alcohol, but with stress, anxiety, relationships, enjoyment, and so much more.

Because changing our relationship with alcohol is about so much more than changing the contents of our glass. This podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you.

My name is Kevin Bellack. I'm a certified professional recovery coach and the head of coaching at the Reframe app.

Today's guest is Kat Radhans. Kat is a mother of five, author, speaker, and addiction recovery advocate based just outside Kansas City, Missouri.

Passionate supporter of recovery in all its forms. Kat emphasizes that no two journeys to sobriety are the same. She believes in meeting individuals where they are [00:01:00] with empathy and compassion. Recognizing that recovery often requires a unique combination of approaches tailored to each person. Kat has been featured on podcasts and magazines and on television, and she has collaborated with alcohol free and low alcohol brands around the world.

Her popular Instagram platform, no Wine in the Carpool Line, boasts over 35,000 followers where she hosts weekly live shows that inspire and support others on their recovery journeys. Kat is a stay at home mother while enjoying a writing and speaking career on the side.

She has a self-help book coming out next year. I'm very excited to welcome Kat to our podcast. How's it going today? 

Kat: Thanks, Kevin. I'm great. I'm so glad to be here. I've been watching you for ages. 

Kevin: Same. I love the name, period, but no wine in the carpool line. I'm interested to hear how you started that.

Kat: Oh my gosh. Let me start at the beginning. I, no wine in the carpool line just started three years ago, but the journey of how I actually [00:02:00] got to know wine in the carpool line started eight years before that. So why don't I start there? 

Kevin: That's perfect. Let's do it. Okay, 

Kat: great. I was a young mom and I was married, had three small children under the age of.

Five. And I had a husband that traveled a lot for business. As the years were going on, our marriage was on the rocks. It wasn't doing great. And rather than really addressing I think what was going on with us, I started drinking. I wasn't really interested in talking about that because that was gonna be really hard and maybe it had something to do with me.

And I really, I didn't really, I wasn't interested in that. Like I had too much going on with the three little kids and just trying to get through that and be like the preschool mom and the ballet mom and the, I was a long distance runner, like the marathoner, so I was really busy living my life and I didn't have time to, I don't know, [00:03:00] really check in with myself and see what I was feeling and what was going on. And and I didn't want to. And I started drinking like heavily. We would go out a bunch on the weekends and I think part of that was because we're incredibly social. My ex-husband and I very social, both of us.

But also it was easier to go out, hire a babysitter and go out and like dance with our friends and go out to dinner and dance the weekend away together, but individually then, work on anything. And then my drinking really started to take off. He was traveling more and more.

I was home alone. I was insecure. I was just not doing well. And I would put the children to bed, the three children to bed, and then I would drink myself to sleep. And what started with a bottle of wine for a few months, a night, turned into a half a bottle of whiskey and then all the way to a fifth, all the way to where I was literally still waking up drunk and had to call a nanny to get my five-year-old to take her to kindergarten because [00:04:00] I couldn't get behind the wheel. Because even though I wasn't feeling like crazy drunk, I knew that I was not okay. Like I wasn't, right.

Yeah. So I, I got to that point and my hu then husband noticed and he said why don't we move to your hometown and see if we can, get you some more support. I can't stop working, so let's do that. So I did, we did, oh my God, it got exponentially worse. I tried to control it in every single way that I could.

I was going to outpatient rehab. I would stay sober for three months and then fall it off. And then, I'd think why don't I run another marathon? So I would train for another marathon and be able to stay sober for four or five months, and then I would fall right off. But I wouldn't fall off like Kevin, like one night.

It was like, I've, it was just the most fucked up I've ever been in my whole life. And my husband said, if you don't stop right now, I'm gonna take the kids and I'm gonna leave. And I didn't believe him because we had the perfect life. I [00:05:00] was a room mom, we played golf. We go to my parents' house on Sunday for dinner.

You know what I mean? We're, yeah, we're picture, we can't have this, I couldn't have it. I think the picture in my mind of what my family was supposed to be, I was so in such crazy denial that it wasn't gonna be like that anymore that I was. So I couldn't even accept that. And he took the kids and he left.

And I was in this empty house boxing shit up pathetically. And I was like what? Like, how, what has actually happened here? And so that went on for months, three or four months. I drank myself, just stupid. And I just, every day dust till dawn, it was. My ex-husband's choice. When I got to see the kids, I'd had no lawyer.

He, it was just, he hadn't filed for divorce yet. It was just this terrible, what's gonna happen. And then things got really bad. I ended up with nowhere to live. I didn't wanna call my friends. I would not go to my parents' house. I couldn't get along with my mother. My dad and my mom had been married for 47 years, but my [00:06:00] dad could not go against my mother and she didn't want me there.

And I was too embarrassed to go anywhere else. I didn't wanna call my friends, my God. I was sitting next to them at the PTA, with the homemade brownies. And now I, we sold our house and my choice was go to rehab where we choose or buy. I wasn't willing to go to rehab where they chose, which is crazy because they chose Hazel and Betty Ford and they also chose the Farley Center in Williamsburg, Virginia.

And I said no to both, which is crazy because I'm affiliated with with Hazel and Betty Ford now so beautifully. So I just love them. I love them. I love them. Yeah. But I refused to go there because get this, it was too far from my children and they were in Virginia and Hazelden was in Palm Springs.

And so I wasn't willing to do that, which was pathological because he had already taken them and left. And I had already drunk my way, stupid for months. And so I was already away from them and everybody tried to [00:07:00] tell me that Kevin and I couldn't hear them. So anybody that listens to this, that has the alcoholic in their life that this is happening to, you're not alone.

You're not crazy and neither are they. It's part of this process. It's awful. Yeah. And I just. It lasted for so much longer, I think, than anybody would've anticipated, because I was sure that I wasn't crazy, but I finally really did have a terrible night where I was in this just disgusting rented house.

I didn't have any business being in, I didn't have anywhere else to go. I was hanging around with people that I didn't have any business being with people that I didn't know. I certainly weren't from anywhere near where I was from. And that was the point, right? I didn't want anyone to know what I had become.

I didn't even look like myself anymore. I wasn't even taking care of myself. It was, I was a shell of a person. I didn't have my kids. Fuck you. All I need is a bottle of whiskey and nothing, literally nothing else. Leave me the fuck alone. It was the most pitiful, saddest thing you've ever seen.

It was [00:08:00] just not even me and my parents. My, my mom could probably believe it. I don't think she ever thought I could do it, but my dad. Couldn't believe it because he knew that there was something left. And I had one really terrible night where I drank just so much moonshine and there was something in the moonshine and I wasn't able to like move.

I could think and I could see, and there was somebody else in the house and it was a terrible act took place. And I remember thinking, I can't, I think I'm gonna die. I think I'd like to die now. I'm gonna die now. I'm just, because after what just happened to me, I let that just happen to me because I was wasted and I drank and I, this happened to me because of my choices.

And that's, I still believe that. I don't believe that it was my fault, but I believe that the choices that I was making in my life put me in a place where I wasn't able to defend myself in a situation where I really needed help. I. Yeah. And I couldn't help [00:09:00] myself. And I, this is so funny. It's like the craziest story.

I have several actually crazy stories that are like, unbelievable. But I fell asleep and I, at some point, and I had a dream and I had prayed that I wouldn't wake up again. Yeah. And I remember dreaming like these bright lights and they didn't say anything, but it was like communicative to me saying it will never be this bad again.

This is the worst it's ever gonna be. Because I kept saying night after night before this happened Jesus, how much more do you need from me? What else can you show me? Because I was just praying all the time and I was like, Jesus you have to help me. I can't, I cannot live like this any longer.

I think I, I will die. And I knew that I was really close. Something really bad was gonna happen to me. Yeah. Yeah. And. I just couldn't take it anymore. And these, whatever this dream told me that it was the worst it was gonna be. And then that next morning I did wake up again and I called my dad and I said, can you come and meet me?

I need to go to rehab. And he was like, no baby, you need to go to detox first. 'cause he knew how bad it was. And so he [00:10:00] drove and he met me. We were in a triangle like the towns that we were in, and he met me at this. Public detox. I'd never been to a public facility in my life ever anywhere. Yeah. So it was a shock.

And I went there and my God, it was just, it was like two hours of like testing and everything because I had been assaulted, of course, the 24 hours before that. And I'd gone to the hospital for that and endured that. But now I was back at the hospital again because they needed to, do everything again.

And thank God they were like, your daughter's healthy, but she's gonna need a lot of drugs to keep her from seizing, so we're gonna need to keep her. I stayed for four days in detox. I, my DTs were insane. I was, they were always the same. My my DTs and I would have them when I was like during my like serious alcohol addiction phase.

I would see yellow spiders and they were animated and so I knew they weren't real and I knew that I wasn't afraid of them, but it was the weirdest thing. They would crawl down the walls.

I should do this. So that, is this on video? Could two people watch this? I feel like it is. Yeah. Yeah. They would crawl down the walls [00:11:00] like this or they would come right from my head and it was whenever I would have a serious binge. So I was used to seeing these spiders and they were always yellow.

Always. And they were so real. It was like Disney was right there. So that was going on. Oh my god. It was crazy. And like I said, this was a public hospital, so I had a roommate and poor God, God bless, God dang. She was probably like 70. She was binge drinking beer and her family needed her to go to detox because she kept talking shit.

And they were like, you're going to the hospital. It was like a commitment type deal. Like she went in voluntarily, but they went into detox her because she was being problematic with the family. Different situation than me. Yeah. Like my life had been burnt to the ground. I'm seeing yellow spiders. I'm like, hooked up to IVs.

What the fuck is happening here? I've done something bad. Oh, it was so bad. So that lasted for four days. And then I was fortunate enough to, I'm 

Kevin: going to probably dream of yellow spiders tonight too, by the way. Everybody that 

Kat: sees it is gonna dream of these yellow spiders. It was so crazy. I never saw them again after [00:12:00] obviously my, my dts were nuts.

I've heard of other people that have seen them though. The same yellow spiders. Theirs were different colors. Oh, really? But yeah. But spiders. There's gotta be some kind of brain chemistry behind that, right? 

Kevin: Is it just, people are generally afraid of spiders or something like that.

So it's just something, it's one of those common things. I don't know, 

Kat: maybe alcohol just does know how to mess with me. I just kept going back for more. It could deter me even with the spiders. Yeah. But after that, after the detox, I my parents my husband had left and taken the kids, so he was no longer interested in where I was going really at all.

But my parents were particularly my dad, and they got me into, I could choose between the Farley Center or Betty Ford and Palm Springs. And I chose the Farley Center in Williamsburg, Virginia because it was the closest to my kids. And I thank God that I did, because I went through several rehabs before that.

And I, it wasn't the rehab's fault. I just wasn't ready. I just [00:13:00] wasn't there yet. And I feel bad for some of the therapists because they were, it was 12 and 13 years ago and they were really insistent that I do it their way and I was really insistent that I could do it in a way that wasn't their way.

And so we kept butting heads and they kept calling my family being like, this bitch has like oppositional defiant disorder. And I'm like, I don't, I'm just telling you're fucking wrong. And I was right. Look at this. 12 years later I was right. But it was tough. And it was tough to try to beat my head against a wall like that.

And they were beating their heads against a wall too, because they really believed that they were right. And I do have to say, even though the 12 steps and aa, that's not what I used long-term to get sober. I don't believe that I would've gotten sober without the 12 steps. That's what we used in the three months that I was in rehab.

Yeah. And that's what I used for the year following, simply because back then it was the only program that really was proven. And so I did do it. And I've gotta say if you're grasping at straws and you don't know where to turn, if AA is a proven program that has saved millions of lives and so I think, and I give and take from everything, and I've [00:14:00] taken some aa.

For everything that I've done. But where was I

Kevin: you were in the, is it the Farley Center? Yeah, so I just got the Farley. 

Kat: Have I? Yeah. Have I told you that? No, I haven't told you. He served me with divorce papers yet. 

Kevin: No. 

Kat: No. Okay. Cool. So I go to the Farley Center and I know that I'm gonna be there for three months, but I also know that my children are gonna be able to visit me like every other weekend, which, and it's a guarantee that my parents will bring my children to me so I don't have to depend on the charity, which is what it was of my ex-husband who hated me at the time.

To let me see my kids. He was using that as a tool. It was really fucked up. And I think a lot of people do that. Don't do that. If you're watching or listening to this, don't use those kids. It's not Right. I can't, anyway. So now I get to see my kids every other weekend. As long as I'm following the program, which included the 12 steps and I did, and the Farley Center.

And I think that there might be other places like this. I can't. Speak to that because where I got sober was the Farley Center. But like I said, it was it was a 12 step [00:15:00] program and it was like a campus. And so we had houses and the women were together and the men were together, and you could go to meetings and all these kinds of things together.

And it was a place where everybody, it was a community really. And that's where I went and I did three months there. I was nearly successful. There were times that I was not right after. But I wasn't quite finished drinking. I had, my husband had left and I had just left the Farley Center.

And along the way I had been in this book club and been in the bookstore a whole bunch during my time at Farley during my three months there. And after the first maybe three or four weeks, I started noticing this man, it's completely inappropriate. I was in the middle of a divorce. I've been served with divorce papers in rehab, and I met this man that had never been married before, who was obviously looking for trouble.

And that was me. And I ended up marrying him six months later, so I didn't. We've been married for 12 years now. I have to say that it's my wonderful husband, Matt, that I write about all the [00:16:00] time, that I speak about all the time. He does public appearances with me. But I credit him, I wasn't even sober when Matt more or less brought me home like a pound puppy.

I was leaving rehab. I didn't have anywhere to go. I continued to mess up. My mother said, you can either go to a halfway house or you can't hang out with us anymore. And I was like, I'm not doing that. That doesn't really sound like something that's gonna work for me. And my now husband said I'm a resident and I'm not crazy.

So I've got a next room in my place and I think it's really near your kids if you want it. And like I said, I ended up marrying him six months later. Yeah it was a tough road to recovery. My, my hus, my now husband Matthew, like I said had a really hard time right after I left the Farley Center and moved in with him.

And I played all the games and. I was almost finished. There was no major rock bottom for me with that. I had several but I had been sober for maybe four or five months when I found out that Matt and I were expecting our first child [00:17:00] together. And of course that was nearly 11 years ago now, and we've had two, two sons since.

But that sort of gave me a cheating way to get in some sobriety. 'cause I had been sober for three or four months and then found out I was expecting. And so that was an easy, when you're pregnant it's easy, okay. That gave me a leg up. And then I'd been sober for over a year and I was like, oh man, I've been sober for over a year.

This is crazy. I never thought I would get to, I truly, Kevin. I really did believe that. I was like, one of the, what is it, the. Sick and suffering one of the 2%. I really thought that I was such a terrible alcoholic, but I could never get sober. Turned out I just wasn't ready to quit drinking yet. But I really thought that I was one of these people that like could not be helped.

I was certain that's how in denial I was, that's how much I wanted to drink. But yeah, I think that my journey towards recovery is not an unusual one. I think a lot of the moms have to lose everything to get to where we are. 

Kevin: [00:18:00] And that was, so that was like 11 years ago, right?

Because, yeah. And so that what was it, five months, after, was it five months before you were pregnant and then the nine months after? So that five months before Yeah. Was when it started. Yeah. That's and isn't it, I just think about this. Isn't it crazy that like you. I'm, maybe you thought about this, I'm sure at times because you were given the option to go to the Farley Center at one point, right?

And you're like, no, I'm not doing that. And you went Yeah. Elsewhere. And had you had gone, had you have gone there, you probably wouldn't have gone back again, and then you wouldn't have met your husband, wouldn't been in that barn, Barnes and Noble. 

Kat: Yeah. My husband and my husband and my dad saved my life.

I wouldn't and unequivocally would not be here without those two men. And I never would've met Matt. I don't believe. I maybe because the universe wants us to, had to be married. We would've been married some other way. But my God, what are the chances that I meet someone in rehab? I have [00:19:00] three kids of a hopeless alcoholic.

This other man has no baggage. What, what are the chances? I mean that this, and he was patient with me and kind to me. And yeah, the fact that it worked out is really astounding. Yeah, unusual. Very unusual, I would say. 

Kevin: I like your flex too, okay, my kids, won't see me drink. Yeah. 'cause I was actually gonna ask you too about the, your older children 'cause you have three older and two with Matt, right?

Kat: Yeah. 

Kevin: Because they have, so I was wondering if you, if there was like a different perspective that you have on that. 

Kat: They were so young when I suffered. The oldest was six. They were, six and, gosh, let's see maybe seven, five, and three when I got sober. So they were so young and I was such a good hider.

Do you know what I mean? I was such a good concealer that I don't think they just, even if you ask them about it, I get, sometimes I get trolls on my [00:20:00] page that really like to hit me hard and my kids will come on the page and be like, bro, we're right here. Yeah. 

Kevin: Yeah, so what are they trolling you on with respect to that? 

Kat: So this is, can I just bring up a topic? 

Kevin: Sure. 

Kat: So a topic that I find that I'm actually trying to speak out about is the stigma of the female mother, alcoholic. When I, when my husband took my children and left, there was about a six month period where I just drank myself nearly to death.

And people would say, you're a mom. How could you not love your kids enough to quit drinking? 

Kevin: Yeah. 

Kat: And the answer is, it's not about that. It's a pathological disease. That doesn't have anything to do with a timeline. It has to do with a sickness. And it has to do with the time that person is ready to get sober.

And it's their path. It's totally their journey. I and I just can't say that enough. I don't think that, like you've said there's no [00:21:00] one person that's gonna do this the same way. And I think that the women take a harder hit, and I'm gonna say this straight up. I think the women take a harder hit than the men do.

Because having small children and being an alcoholic, I was au automatically labeled a terrible mother. It didn't matter that I'd been sober for three, four or five years. I started no wine in the carpool line because I was eight years sober and I heard some women talking smack in the carpool line about me.

They didn't know that it was me, but they were talking about me and I was like. What the hell is this? I've been sober for eight years and you're talking smack about me in this, in the carpool line. Like number one, shame on you. Get over it. What the hell is your problem? But number two. Yeah. Why? Why? Yeah. We need to change this narrative. Fucking now. And that's exactly what I started to do with no wine in the carpool line, is to say, you know what? If you guys wanna talk about this, if you wanna talk about it and spin a narrative in some way that it isn't, I'm gonna get online and I'm gonna be one of the first women to get online, and I'm gonna tell you the real deal.

I. Because no one in the carpool line was one of the first ones. I didn't even [00:22:00] know that there were other, and, but they certainly weren't like mine. So I got online and just started telling my story one reel at a time. And it didn't catch on for probably a year, two years, maybe 18 months. You know how things start, yeah. And I didn't care if it was catching on or not. I just wanted people to know I'm not ashamed of what I went through. Because look at where I am now. I was like eight years sober. Yeah. I was raised in a beautiful family. I had custody of my children, I was successful in every other area of life.

And I'm walking around this private school, ducking my head because I'm afraid that there are women talking about me because of what they knew about me from all these years ago when I moved to the new town with the ex-husband. And they all knew the tea. Fuck that. Yeah, I came to play. Let me show you how good I can be.

This is not what I came here to do. That's what I did. And. I think that we need more women to speak out about it. I think that we need men to interview us. I think that we need women to have a stronger voice in this community and and really speak up for themselves and and do [00:23:00] something that's new and different that we haven't, that we maybe haven't had before in the realm of sobriety.

I just think that the female alcoholic mother is is someone that we haven't studied quite enough, and I'm one of those people. I just don't think that we've quite gotten to where we can be as far as the female woman in sobriety and still an addiction. 

Kevin: Yeah, and it is bullshit because it is a total double standard if that was me and my wife took, my daughter away. 

Because it's not just like how could you lost your kids here. Why are you drinking? It's because I'm shattered from losing my kids. And this is the coping mechanism that I have. This is the thing. I know what to do to make me feel better or to make me forget, or to whatever it is to drown that out.

And so it's not as easy as oh, you should just want to do it. There's a lot of things that a lot of people should want to do and we don't. Right? I kept drinking long after I got diagnosed with a fatty liver and that, and, and I was sitting there thinking to myself every night, like, why the fuck am I doing [00:24:00] this?

And that's what I knew I was, I didn't know what else to do. But total double standard for that, because yeah, I would've, that would've been brought up for me, but that wouldn't have been the narrative of like, how could you with your kids and things like that. Oh, and 

Kat: I've heard how could you, I try not to read a lot.

Of the viral reels, because when they go viral, they end up places that you don't want them. But oh my God. I've had people, oh, dozens of times over the years at hundreds maybe be like, get on my page and go off on me and tell me what a terrible woman I am, what a terrible mother I am. They should have, the state should have taken my kids and never given them back.

Everybody should have, I should just go this and that. I think people have so much trauma from their own issues, obviously, especially with alcoholic mothers, your mom's supposed to protect and nurture you and care for you, and she's not available for you, I assume that would fuck you up in some way.

So if she's drunk, she's not available to you.

Kevin: Yeah. 

Kat: I think I've had [00:25:00] people on my page absolutely say horribly mean things to me. Yeah. And I never, I want everybody to know, I never take it personally. Usually I don't pop off back usually. Unless I really have to for someone else's safety.

Yeah. But I understand, I totally understand. And I can understand people that are listening to this or watching this being like. Wow, you are the worst. You drank for months after your children were taken away and you didn't do anything about it. You didn't care enough. And that's just not true.

And I'm really sorry that some, that others are not able to understand that it is. And it's been proven, it is a scientific fact that our brains are different than the people that don't have alcohol use disorder. They're different. And we, oh God, it's the compulsion. It's every time that the non-alcoholic wants to pick up their phone and look at it, that's what it's like when you're trying not to take a drink.

Don't pick up your phone for a day. Let's say it's a day when you're not working, there's no internet, you're at the beach for the entire day. There's no reason you don't have to have your phone, you can't have it. Or if you're a smoker, put your cigarettes or your vape or [00:26:00] whatever up the entire day. Why don't all of y'all come and talk to me in nine minutes and tell me what you're doing?

'cause you're gonna climb on the walls. Seriously. There's something that you're addicted to. It's the same shit. It's the same thing. Why are that? It's the same kind of, I wanna pick up my 

Kevin: phone right now just 'cause you told me not to. 

Kat: I know. No, I know. Now we're talking about it. That's how I was in recovery.

So yeah, I think that's something that I've been trying to get out to, but that's why I started. No one in the carpool line and how I ended up here and how I ended up on your podcast and, talking to people about this was just because I was really sad that the narrative for the mother who has alcohol use disorder is so negative and is so nasty.

And, and it's so hard to shake. I had shame over my alcohol use disorder and those months that I spent drinking that I like said I was trying, but I wasn't trying. I carried that shame with me until I started no eye in the carpool line for eight years. I had been sober for eight years and I was still ashamed every single [00:27:00] day of what I was doing for a three or four month period and letting myself be ashamed of it and reminding myself of it and being like, you don't deserve to have a good day today because of your past.

And yeah, you don't deserve to be happy, Catherine, because you were so bad. Look at what you did. Everything they said was right, and I let that go and I replayed and replayed and replayed and I was even replaying that shit after I started no one in the carpool line. And as I started writing and reading and meeting people, I started to realize wait a minute.

Oh my God, I need to forgive myself for this. Oh no. Okay. Other people feel this way too. And that's when, I realized I wasn't alone and I wanted to keep doing it. 

Kevin: And that's why it's so important because yeah, you're gonna have trolls, you're gonna have people who trolls and people who feel very strongly about, oh, that's, you're such a horrible person.

You, me, anybody for what we do. But it's not a, it's not about us usually. Like they see that and people can make judgements, but it's usually not about us. It's about, yeah, what they're [00:28:00] bringing to that comment with them. And I always tried to focus on, it's you know what? I can't care about that.

I'm not one, I don't like drama like that. I don't want to get involved. And I've, I'm not saying I dealt with it. I, I don't have reels that went viral or stuff like that, that I had to deal with it. But I would've, yeah, I would've been ignoring, deleting comments and just, be like, all right, cool.

Because all I care about are the comments that said, thank you so much for sharing this. Yeah. This helped me so much today. That's what's important because by you using your voice the way you are, you know what, in that same carpool line that you were in, where they were talking about you, there's somebody else reading and listening to you that you are helping.

And that's what's important. 

Kat: Gosh, you too, Kevin. Thanks for saying that. I hope so. I just, I remember sitting like, back in the day, it was Facebook back when I was, before I was sober, we didn't have Instagram or, anything else. Yeah. And [00:29:00] I would, I remember scrolling away the nights on Facebook, just looking at pictures and drinking and crying and being just so upset that I couldn't stop drinking.

And knowing that I couldn't, and knowing that my life was gonna change at some point, I knew that it would because I knew that I couldn't stop and just being so sad and wondering what was wrong with me? I just didn't know, and I and I was just so mortally embarrassed because I didn't know anybody else like me that was an alcoholic.

I didn't know any other moms in the class that were alcoholics, right? Nobody was talk. Sometimes I still don't. And I really don't I get dms occasionally from people that I know saying, Hey, I'm struggling with this, that. And I'm like, oh, I had no idea. I'm so glad you dmd me. 'Cause you never know. I just, yeah. I never wanted another woman and it'll happen until the end of time. But I didn't want, I. If I could help one person not fucking cry their nights away knowing you're okay. I promise you can get better, because I really didn't think that I could. I swear to God I really didn't, I didn't really want to ever stop drinking because I [00:30:00] loved it so much.

I needed it so much. Like it was the only thing that like, loved me all the time. It made me feel like, okay. About me, like I hated myself so much that it was the only and why you could look at me and wonder why did you hate yourself? I don't know. It was all a thing, but I did and I, that was the only thing that would like, ease it, yeah. And then when they took, when my ex-husband took the kids. That's when it was just like, just kill me now. I'm, I was a stay at home mom. I don't wanna be anything. I can't be anything without them. And my God, it was the fight I think of my dad and my husband's life, my second husband, Matt's lives to get me sober.

And they did. And I owe my life to them. Absolutely. Yeah. And every, and I think my page to them, and I think my platform to them, because I wouldn't have spoken out had they not saved me and then encouraged me to talk about it. My dad did. He would. He said, you've got to, you gotta talk about this somehow because there are other ladies that feel like you.

Yeah.

Kevin: And you did it too, right? [00:31:00] You got to that point. I remember you saying earlier about you kind, I think correct me here. Like you got, and you were just got to that night and. I don't wanna say that night, like it was just like one thing, but it's the, I can't keep doing this anymore.

There's like sometimes that switch that gets flipped and we think there's switches that get flipped all along oh, this is the last time I'm gonna do this and all that. But when you really you can know the big ones and it's just Ugh, 

Kat: I've said this before, and people are gonna think I'm really lame or whatever.

It's like a spiritual awakening. I had bottoms, like rock bottoms. I did some bad shit when I was drinking and I fucking, ooh, made some big mistakes, man. Real big. Yeah. Things I regret and things that I definitely don't, but, that last day, it was so weird. It was just like, I knew I was done and it was like, oh God, I think I might be done.

I hope I'm right. I hope I can trust this feeling. 'cause you don't know even then if you can trust anything you're feeling. Yeah. 'cause you've done [00:32:00] this so many times. You've tried to quit so many times. You don't know if it's really the last time. And even worse than that, nobody else trusts you either.

And so they're like, yeah, sure. It's the last time. Yeah. Show me. Sure. Isn't 

Kevin: that, is that Missouri's must state motto? Show me the, show me state. Oh 

Kat: my gosh, Kevin, you just blew my mind because it's true. I got sober in the show me state. That's exactly like what it was too. I had like my husband and my dad.

My dad was 700 miles away. I was in Missouri. My dad was in Virginia, and my dad and my husband in order to keep me sober. And it did, it worked Like before I found out that I was having my son, my el my eldest son with Matt I. Before I found out I was having him, they would give me these schedules like 7:00 AM to whatever PM and I'd have to check in and blow breathalyzer videos and like they took my keys and you couldn't order drinks back then, like to the house.

And yeah, they did everything they had to do to ensure that I would be successful. And I fought them most of the time. But in the end, yeah, it ended up working. So I feel like a lot of people are really hopeless that it [00:33:00] weren't won't work. And I also feel like a lot of family members are really hopeless that their loved one will never, ever get sober.

And that sucks. It's so hard. 

Kevin: And what do you, if somebody asks you in that case, like if you have a friend come up and what would you tell them what to do and maybe more importantly, I don't know which one's more important, but what not to do. 

Kat: So if someone asked me for help, 

Kevin: if someone said, Hey, my.

My wife, my kid, my so and my kid, my yeah. 

Kat: Thank you for asking that question. I, the very first thing that person needs to ask themselves is where are they coming from? Are they coming from a place of love? Are they coming from a place of hurt? Are they coming from a place of anger? Is it a combination of all of the things?

Most likely. But the overriding thing has to be love. And if it's not, you gotta find somebody else to do your bidding. Man. Get out. Get out. Because if it's not love, it's gonna backfire because they're gonna feel controlled and 

Kevin: judged 

Kat: And yeah, judged, [00:34:00] challenged it's just not gonna work. And if there's any kind of a battle between the recipient and the giver. We're not gonna work this thing out. This has to be coming from a place of love. And it has to be coming from a person who, the person who's sick can receive from. Don't do this with a person. You've had a battle ax with your entire life. You're gonna lock horns and nobody's gonna win.

Someone might die. Someone might die. You gotta step back. 

Kevin: Yeah. And you've 

Kat: gotta figure out who's the best person to communicate with this person. And once we find that person, I have found, I, and I'm not an expert, but I know what worked for me. And I know what works for a lot of the people that I'm not a coach either.

And I will never be. But what has worked for many of the people that I have gotten involved with is finding that person that's coming from love. But you have to be ready to surrender to that person. And you have to be ready to say. I will do whatever it is that you're requiring of me. And that person has to know you gotta have your plan ready.

You've gotta know what you're gonna do. Are we gonna ask for a 12 step [00:35:00] program? Are we going to say, let's, maybe you need some therapy? What's going on with you? I see that things are going on here. Are we at a point where we're like, yo, you've got two ddu DUIs in three weeks and your wife left you, it's time for rehab.

Are we there? It depends on the point where they are, but wherever it is, it needs to come from a loving place. It needs to come from a PO point of compassion and kindness. Because the loved one or the family member, even if they're not really a loved one right now needs that. But, and with that, they need the accountability.

So I don't like to use the term tough love. It's just love. You need to find the person that's able to give that, but also have the requirements at the same time. And for me, it was my dad and it was my husband, Matt, and they were the only two people at that point that I knew loved me no matter what. That I trusted, I thought everybody else had lied to me, and everybody else fucking had all these things like, oh, Katherine, we'll promise you this.

If you do this or if you don't do this. I didn't trust anybody and nobody trusted me, [00:36:00] so I found the two people that I trusted the most, and I let them, I. Guide me through my recovery. And I think that's really important too for the person who's suffering through addiction to, to recognize that they're gonna have to surrender to somebody, whether it's to God or to a human being.

Yeah, you're gonna have to do it and it's gonna be tough. But I would say if you've got someone who's struggling, the very first thing you need to decide is who's the best person to go to that person and what level of care do they need? And is it something as simple as, trying to find an app for them, saying, look, I've got this great app reframe.

Yeah, I've got this book that I can, that, that I can recommend. I've gone to a meeting before, maybe that's not anything but just making sure that it's coming from the right place rather than a place of resentment. Because if it is coming from a place of resentment in my experience, it can be incredibly harmful.

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And yeah, 'cause for me it was the it was probably my therapist. That's what I did. 'cause I was like, I'm not gonna go to AA because I'm not ne I'm not never going to drink again. It's not like I'm not gonna drink [00:37:00] again. That was where I was at. I know I need to change.

I can't keep doing this, but I was still never gonna close the door on it. So I'm like I can't go to aa 'cause that's closing the door on it and that doesn't, that won't work. So I made up all those excuses on why I didn't know any alcoholics because again, it's that thing where, we're not out there, with a sign on.

I, that was me. I don't call myself that. I never did. It was never helpful for me. So I didn't, yeah. And it's, I just didn't. No where to go. So I signed up with a therapist and I and I often think, or I used to think, and I, and people have asked me I, I don't know if my wife I think we've talked about this a while back years ago, but felt resentful to me because why couldn't I say this stuff to her?

And it's it's not about you, it's about that. I was ashamed of the fact that I couldn't stop, so I couldn't, my husband said 

Kat: the same thing. 

Kevin: Yeah. 

Kat: Why couldn't you say this to me? And I was like, it's not about you. Yeah. It's not about you. It's [00:38:00] nothing to do with you. 

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. I can't say this to you.

I can't do this. I can't say this to you because I am ashamed of the fact that I am in this place and thinking this stuff and going through this right now. And that was, so compassionate. I had my therapist, which I just met with this morning, six years later we're still meeting. And it's helpful just for life, not just, I don't need her to not drink anymore.

I need her to that. She's one of my guard, she's one of my guardrails that keeps me on track. 

Yeah. And I know we can, we're running up on time here and we can wrap it up here soon.

All right. So what so now you started no, no wine in the carpool line and that was 2022, you said? I believe so, 

Kat: yes. 

Kevin: Hitting three years here. And Yes what's changed? What's different now? What's your focus now from, obviously 11 years ago to three years ago, obviously there's a lot of stuff in between that happened, but where's your head at now with everything and [00:39:00] where you're focused on what you're working on?

Kat: Oh, gosh. From 11 years ago, my whole life has changed because I'm sober, obviously. So my whole life has changed. I. I really can't believe when I look back, like when I read my journals and I look back at myself when I was still drinking, I can't believe that was me. I just can't believe it. I was I don't know.

I was really weak. I pushed myself around. I allowed myself to be pushed around. I just wasn't really much of a fighter anymore in any regard really. Other than fighting, quitting drinking. 

Kevin: Yeah. 

Kat: Sorry, I just lost track. What was my question? 

Kevin: So what are you focused on?

Kat: Oh right 

Kevin: now and working on now. 

Kat: So 11 years ago it was completely different, but three years ago when I started no wine in the carpool line, I was still honestly, I think I was still a little bit self-conscious about I. My recovery. I had finally had [00:40:00] enough where I just wanted everybody to know, because I felt everybody's talking about you anyway.

And they weren't. Some of them were, but not really. Yeah. But that's what we think, right? Yeah. So I was like, whatever, everybody's talking about me anyway. I might as well write it. And then yeah, so much has changed for me since then. I have grown into, I think, the person that I was always supposed to be.

I'm who I came to be on this planet now. I'm hopeful that the work that I do every day not just online, on things like podcasts or on anything, any program that I'm fortunate enough to be featured on, I hope that I'm able to spread awareness for alcohol use disorder and the people that suffer from it, the family members and the people that are suffering themselves.

I just wanna spread love and compassion and kindness. I just want to let people know that they're not alone on either side and that there really is recovery. And the difference in me three years ago and today is that I was operating at probably [00:41:00] about 40% then, and I'd say I'm like 110 now. I'm, there's nothing that could make me happier than writing, reading or speaking about recovery and recovery based programs and recovery needs for women, moms, families, children of alcoholics spouses, anything like that.

And that's completely different. I am confident, I am quite sure of who I am. Yeah. I don't need to ask anyone's opinion for any decision that I make during the day because I am sure that I will consider it long enough to make the right decision. And if I'm. I'm pretty sure that I can't make the right decision.

I know that I'll sleep on it until I can, I'm more deliberate now. I'm more thoughtful, now I'm more careful. And I'm far more grateful. I love my life. I can't believe that I'm able to say that because it wasn't like that 11, 12 years ago. It was really tough and I didn't think that I'd ever [00:42:00] be here.

So yeah I'd say that it's completely different. And what I'm working on now, gosh, I have a lot of great podcasts booked to be on and doing my lives. And gosh, Kevin, I don't know if you ever come on lives, but I would love to have you on 'cause I haven't heard your story yet. 

Kevin: It's been a, it's been a while.

I keep telling myself, I'm like, I need to get back into Instagram. I've just been like, silent for a over a year now. And 

Kat: you're a ghost boy. 

Kevin: I know. And I'm I need to, I'm like, okay, now am I gonna jump in now? Am I gonna jump in now? Yeah, I'm gonna start 

Kat: blowing up your page and then you're not gonna be able to deny it.

Kevin: So Yes I will I'll say yes to anything pretty much but no, I would love to talk more as well, but that's, I love like all the things that you were just saying about because what I heard before was even up to three years ago when you're 

Kat: Yeah. 

Kevin: You were you said, I'm quite sure of who I am now, but three years ago you were seemingly seemed to be focused.

I. On the old you right. Focused [00:43:00] on completely. I was 

Kat: totally focused on what other people thought about me Yeah. And who they thought I was because I was so desperate to prove to them that I'm not who you've heard I am. I'm not this crazy alcoholic person. That's crazy. I was crazy alcoholic cat for a very short period of time.

Yeah. I did a lot of crazy shit. But God, that's not who I am. Like, let's, let me flip this and let me help anybody else that I can along the way. I don't know if I help anybody truly. And I'm not just saying that I know that we can get sober support in a lot of places. I hope I hope I helped someone just because Yeah, that's true.

Even three years ago, Kevin, I was still super insecure. I can tell you that speaking out about the disease and not letting it own me anymore has changed my life completely. I just, yeah. I can't tell you. It's given me a freedom that I couldn't possibly have ever thought that I would have the courage to have.

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's, that's a powerful thing. Um, and, And yes, I mean, you have, you've definitely helped people for sure. I can, I'll just, I can, I don't need to [00:44:00] know anybody to, to know that, right? Because I mean, I, I, I credit 

Kat: cringe. 

Kevin: I credit, like reading a line from a book as a huge, my a huge like thing that pushed me to make a change and really what, or a line in a song or like all these like little things like from 6, 7, 8 years ago that stick in my head that wow, were meaningless to me at the, not to me at the time, but are, that are meaningless little things.

But you never know what one little thing is gonna hit. With somebody and work with somebody, because as you said, yeah, we're all different. And it take, it, it's different approaches are needed. For sure. Yeah. One of the things that you just asked, like there's, I have a, my, one of my first tattoos I got on my shoulder here was a line from a blue October song.

I remember driving in the I wasn't drinking, I picked my daughter up from somewhere, but it was like the January [00:45:00] that I got my therapist and I said I can't keep doing this. I was driving my daughter home from somewhere and the song came on and it said, maybe in another lifetime I'll find a way to say these words to you.

And it said, I should have been a better man, but a should have, could've, would've, isn't what a better man would do. 

Kat: Oh shit. 

Kevin: I, I got fucking chills right now. But I was, I just remember looking over at her. I don't know if she was sitting next to me or in the backseat. I can't remember. She was 11, so I can't, she's probably next to me at that point.

But. That hit me like a ton of bricks. And that was like a week before I, it wasn't the last time I drank, but it was a week before that I credit with my like, bottom. And so it's just like those little things like don't those little, what do they call 'em? Like shimmers, glimmers, something like that.

Ha. I don't, 

Kat: no, I don't know any of the lingo. I'm really out of touch with that stuff. Yeah, I dunno. I really am. But yeah, the little tiny the most insignificant things they really can mean a lot, [00:46:00] right? 

Yeah, 

Kevin: yeah. It's not about the big thing. It's not about the, it's all the little changes we make or all the little things that push us.

I think. I dunno, I don't wanna get too whatever with it, but but no, thank you. Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your story and. Thoughts and ideas here today. And yeah, they we'll we will, we'll wrap it up here with a little segment we just call, what did you learn this week?

And it could be completely off topic, not sobriety related at all. A little nugget for the listeners. Mine is just, I'm, we talked earlier about maybe I'm sick and I'm recovering from my daughter got sick on vacation and I got her sickness like last week. So now my thing is I need to drink more tea.

'cause I got my Jocko tea here that with a little honey in it that I put on put in. And that's been helping me through this. Not cough too much. But it's good. And I'm a coffee guy. [00:47:00] I've, I got two coffee mug tattoos. I got just all I can, no, all that stuff. And it's just, it, I. Love it. And I do not drink enough tea.

And I need to start switching it into the mix. That's my nugget that I learned this week. 

Kat: Oh my gosh. I absolutely love it. I actually learned something I. New this week for myself. It was a task that I learned that was new this week and I learned how to comfortably ride in a four-wheeler. I have never in my life enjoyed ATVing four-wheeling any of these kinds of things.

I know people absolutely love them, including my sons. I have never in my life loved them before, but I had the opportunity this past week. I was on sober women's retreat, speaking to women about their sobriety. And one of the things that they had, we were on a ranch in Texas, was ATVs. And so I learned how to, I, I didn't learn, let's be real.

I'm gonna be honest with, I didn't drive one. [00:48:00] It's not that I drove one, my friend Morgan drove it. I was a passenger, but I learned like how to hang on and actually have a good time doing it rather than just be freaked out and not enjoy it at all the entire time. So I don't know if that's a good learning experience or not, but I tried something that I didn't think I liked and enjoyed it.

Kevin: That's awesome. And what. What is the trick? I'm curious now. 

Kat: Oh, I was holding on to the top side thing and I scooted all the way over to the right so that I was like in the edge of the A TV and then I didn't bump around. I think before I was just bumping around so much. It was just so uncomfortable.

Uncomfortable. Yeah. I just held on really tight. Yeah. Oh, and something else Also, I didn't know with the, at TV, there's a little square on the like right hand side, foot thing for you to put your foot on and push down. I had no idea. Literally Morgan was like, Kat. What are you doing? Because I was like, I'm ready to go.

And I know I looked. You looked exactly. I was like, ready. And she was like, what the fuck are you doing? And she reached over and she like, manipulated my leg and [00:49:00] moved me. And she was like, now you're ready. And then we went and I was like, oh, this is more comfortable. 

Kevin: Yeah. It's okay, thanks.

Nobody's told me this before. Thank you. Yeah. That's hilarious. Yeah I was thinking of, I, I hate, I'm not a horse. I don't like riding horses and never put on it. And I did some dad daughter stuff where we, that was part of it and my daughter wasn't big on it, which I liked because I'm like, I don't like getting on a horse.

Didn't wanna do it. No. And I was just, the one time I actually rode one for any length of time, I was like, the whole time, I'm like, Nope. I actually, I had the old horse blue who was in the back of the pack, so we were moseying. I like blue. But yeah nobody tells me how to do this stuff and I just, you just expect me to jump on and know.

It's no, tell me. 

Kat: Sobriety, I guess, like getting sober finally. I like it. No one knows how to do it. You just try to figure it out. Stick your butt in the corner and hold on. 

Kevin: Stick your butt's. Like the best 

Kat: analogy ever. 

Kevin: Hold on. And just mosey just go slow. Yeah. Love it. [00:50:00] So thank you for that.

And anything that you'd like to, there we go. Anything you'd like to share for the listeners where they can connect with you more? Obviously we've talked about no wine in the carpool line. I will share your website and that in the show notes. And I know you wanted to share a book as well, so go for it.

Kat: Yeah. And no one in the carpool line.com and I think we're having cat radiance.com pretty soon. We're gonna switch no one in the carpool line over. It's gonna be a little shorter, but stay tuned for that. Anyway, y'all, this book Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea, it is about a woman who's suffering through alcohol use disorder with her family.

It's a novel. It is coming out this month. It's by Jessica Gure. And I'm telling you, I really do believe this will be on the New York Times bestseller list. It is. My favorite novel of the year. We all know that I read a ton, Jessica Gure, between the Devil and The Deep Blue Sea. It's one of the first novels of Quit Lit type.

It's absolutely groundbreaking literature. And I think when the critics see this [00:51:00] they will agree with me because we don't have a lot of fun quit lit stuff. Like we have a bunch of romance novels with people getting it on and drinking and like all kinds of other shit like that. But where the things where the woman is suffering through and the dad is oh my God, Lee, if you don't stop, I'm gonna this or that, it's here.

We haven't ever had it before. I read this book in two days. I'm, I just, I love it. I actually have a review in here because I like it so much. So you can find that on my page or on Jessica GRE's page and yes please go buy this book. You'll absolutely love it. Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea, it's already won a bunch of awards.

Kevin: Yeah, thank you. And you can also, and 

Kat: then buy mine next year. 'cause it'll win a bunch of awards too. 

Kevin: And we will have to have you back on when your new book comes out. Yeah, I, if you're handing out advanced copies, I will,

Kat: I'm baby there. There'll be an art coming your way. 

Kevin: I will take one.

And and you can also, b you can also pre-order you can also pre-order this on Amazon too. I didn't, if I would've waited three seconds if you saw me looking off camera, I was [00:52:00] sitting here click pre-order. 

Kat: So sorry. Yes, you can pre-order this on Amazon. It's just amazing.

She's gonna have a bunch of book signings. I'm having one here for her in Kansas City in July. So if anybody's interested in meeting Jess or me you can come to that. I'll put more info up about that. But yeah, absolutely. Great book. Kevin, thank you so much. This is so much fun. I've been watching you for years.

This is. Really great. I've had the best time. 

Kevin: Yeah, likewise. I really appreciate you coming on and chatting and it's been great to connect. So appreciate that. We will be anxiously awaiting. No pressure. Your book coming up. What? Me too. Yeah, exactly. I'm sure that's a, I'm sure that's a fun process.

We'll talk about that at some point. It's cool. Anyone that's 

Kat: thinking about writing a book, talk to me first because I thought I was finished like three years ago. I'm serious. Like it was finished and they were like, wow, this is okay. Anyway. Yeah, totally. Kevin, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

You have to promise to come on my live. I'm gonna DM you [00:53:00] dates 

Kevin: abs. Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. All right, we'll end it there. And thank you all for listening to this episode with our special guest, Kat Radan. So the re Frameable podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol.

It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. And I wanna thank you again for listening, and be sure to come back again for another episode soon.

Have a great day.