Start Small, Stay Connected: Rethinking Alcohol and Change

Join Kevin with new co-hosts Frank Spinelli and Eric Fischer as they kick off a new chapter of the Reframeable Podcast. In this episode, they share their personal journeys and dive into the realities of behavior change, alcohol, and identity.

They explore common misconceptions around addiction, why so many people struggle silently, and how shame and labels can keep us stuck. The conversation highlights the power of community, vulnerability, and realizing you’re not alone.

You’ll also hear practical insights on slowing down, pausing instead of reacting, and why small, consistent changes matter more than big, all-or-nothing goals.

If you’ve ever felt like you “should be able to figure this out on your own,” this episode is a reminder—you don’t have to.

The Reframeable podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the #1 app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you.

If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. If you have a topic you'd like us to cover on the podcast, send an email to podcast@reframeapp.com or, if you're on the Reframe app, give it a shake and let us know what you want to hear.

Transcript

Start Small, Stay Connected: Rethinking Alcohol and Change

Kevin Bellack (00:05)
Welcome everyone to another episode of the Reframeable Podcast, the podcast that brings you people's stories and ideas about how we can work to reframe our relationship, not just with alcohol, but with stress, anxiety, relationships, enjoyment, and so much more. Because changing our relationship with alcohol is about so much more than changing the contents of our glass. This podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol.

It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. My name is Kevin Bellac. I'm a certified professional recovery coach and the head of coaching at the reframe app. Today, I'm excited to be joined by my new co-hosts here on the Reframeable Podcast, Frank Spinelli and Eric Fisher. I'll let them introduce themselves, but I wanted to let you know that we will be continuing to bring you a variety of conversations. You'll hear different combinations of us along with guests.

Interviews and solo led episodes all focused on helping you reframe your relationship with alcohol and the bigger picture around it So with that Frank and Eric, please give us a little bit about Your background and we'll get started with today's Frank go first

Frank Spinelli (01:19)
sure.

Yes. Thank you. ⁓ My name is Frank Spinelli. I'm a certified health coach with Reframe. And I am also a physician for 20 years based in New York. And I joined Reframe right around the pandemic. And it's really been really been enlightening being coach here, really enjoying it.

Eric Fischer (01:41)
Frank, that was awesome. My name is, that was so good. My name is Eric Fisher. it was good, Frank. was Frank. was Frank. Yes, you passed. Yeah. My name is Eric Fisher. I'm, I'm, I'm happy to be here. I'm a lifestyle and performance coach. am in recovery for alcohol addiction. I, I've been at reframe, I suppose now for just roughly one year. I'm a former minor league baseball player chasing that dream to go make it to the big leagues fell short.

Frank Spinelli (01:42)
I didn't know we getting graded.

Kevin Bellack (01:46)
Yeah.

past.

Frank Spinelli (01:59)
you

Eric Fischer (02:09)
⁓ and then went to LA and embarked on another career in the film industry. And throughout that 20, ⁓ five year process, I've been coaching, mentally and physically coaching athletes to be the best they can be. And, and, ⁓ and post addiction, I shifted my coaching over into this space and, you know, it's, it's incredibly important to me. So I'm, it's awesome to be here with you guys.

Frank Spinelli (02:35)
See, I learned something new about you already. I didn't know. That's incredible. I didn't know you were a minor league baseball player. That's cool.

Kevin Bellack (02:35)
Yeah.

Eric Fischer (02:37)
Hahaha.

Yeah. Yeah. Those bus rides and the peanut butter and jellies and the like, yeah, the overnighters. I'll tell you what the minor leagues is, ⁓ you know, you've got to want it. That's for sure. So yeah.

Kevin Bellack (02:53)
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. What's that?

Eric Fischer (02:56)
Nine years.

No, nine years. Yeah. Nine years. learn a lot. You know, there's a lot of drinking, a lot of partying. You know, you go hard. It's a high octane industry and it's a sink or swim industry. You know, you're, you're an asset or a liability and, and you learn that that professional sports is not now, you know, it's a love, it's a passion of the person playing or otherwise they wouldn't have had it in them to reach that, that, that level. However, I will say that once you turn pro, does take the

Kevin Bellack (03:00)
yeah.

Eric Fischer (03:26)
the autotelicity out of it, right? Because you're playing, it's a job, it's a job now. So yeah, it is different. Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (03:32)
Wait, can I ask a follow-up question?

Not that I know anything about sports, but where did you play and what position did you play?

Eric Fischer (03:42)
I was with a white socks and the Minnesota twins and I was a starting pitcher. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had four arm surgeries, took me out of the game and, um, you know, like I said, I became a liability and so there's the door. Yeah. It's the way it is though, you know, looking back, but, but, know, like one of the, one of the things is like, like when, when we talk about addiction and, and, and, understanding oneself and making, uh, intentional decisions and so on and so forth, it's like, I have that.

Frank Spinelli (03:48)
Wow, cool.

⁓ that's...

Eric Fischer (04:12)
I'm ADHD. And so I know where that gas pedal is, you know, it's a Ferrari brain bicycle brake. So they say, and, everything we did was hard, you know, like going hard, going hard in the weight room, going hard, running, going hard at the bars at night. And everything was just like, there was never enough, you know, of everything. And that just gets a taps into your bloodstream. And then post baseball, there's an identity. There's, there's, there's a.

there's a cognitive dissonance and not for everybody, there was for me, but there's a cognitive dissonance into how you're going to live your life. What are you going to do after this game is over? And, you know, and I really struggled with that. So, yeah.

Frank Spinelli (04:50)
I can't even imagine that. mean, you've sorta sounded like, you know, you're like a rock star. You know, you're playing hard, you're out there, you're performing, you got all these fans. I can't imagine going to a bar and all the attention you were getting. then, yeah, I could understand where you're not doing that. And it's not because you didn't wanna do it, it's because you were limited by, like you said, the liability. So that's gotta feel.

Yeah, I could understand where your identity certainly is like, well, now who am

Eric Fischer (05:20)
Yeah, well, you're young, too, you know, and so you're not. So what you what you're doing, I was defined by baseball since I was really young, growing up in Cincinnati, Ohio. I went to Archbishop of High School, a power school. And, know, and you do you become your identity is directly tied to that. And then when it goes away. Who are you?

Kevin Bellack (05:23)
Yeah.

Eric Fischer (05:44)
Who are you? What do you stand for? What are you about? What are your values? What does your life look like professionally and personally? And how are you showing up, you know, from when the uniform is no longer part of your life? Yeah, it's a challenge for I coach a lot of athletes who are transitioning out of the game. that's alcohol is for sure some sort of novelty, some sort of distillment down into novelty of opioids, et cetera, alcohol.

is the most common because you can just go down the street and buy it. So the barrier to getting it is just, you know, it's everywhere. yeah, alcohol is a major thing with athletes, yeah.

Kevin Bellack (06:14)
now.

Yeah. And what do we go where do we go to when sorry, you're out there. Where do we go to when you when that stress hits or whatever it's we go to what we know and yeah, okay, well, I don't have baseball anymore. I don't have this thing anymore. And I'm stressed and therefore alcohol has always been there for me. And it's an easy thing to go to.

Frank Spinelli (06:24)
Can I ask you a

Eric Fischer (06:45)
Yeah. And it's not just for athletes, know, anybody, think the common denominator of human, of human nature is being, being able to strive forward towards something, right? There's positive emotion or negative emotion and our brains are built in such a way to, accomplish and, and our brain is literally a brain and aim seeking machine. so, anybody, the common denominators, we all want to be the best we can be. And when, and when the tension gets too high, what do we do? You know, there's that escapism and

and alcohol, best friend that says nothing back is always there for us. So it's a balance. It's a balance.

Frank Spinelli (07:21)
Let me, can I ask you a personal question? Do you think you were already struggling with alcohol before you stopped playing or did that come afterwards?

Eric Fischer (07:24)
Mm-hmm.

⁓

Yeah, good question. I have the ability now to look back. It was, it was always in me. You know, it was like that, like that hit a dopamine and that euphoric high is it becomes hardwired in you. so, but, looking back, it was always like the one before we went out.

the pregame of it and then, and then one extra. However, I would never have considered myself an alcoholic at all. Cause I was in the gym. was in the gym. I was functional, but it was never all consuming until it was later, later on, quite a few years later, 15, 18 years later. yeah.

Frank Spinelli (08:12)
Yeah, I mean, just listening to you, I'm really going to be honest with you. I think you're downplaying it. I think most people don't become professional athletes. Most people don't get to be on stage or get to have a fan base. I mean, that is a...

That's ster, that's dopamine on steroids. You know, that is, you're getting a lot of feedback and just adulation and it's exciting. And you're swept up into this and you're going to different cities. I'm making this up because I don't know this, this life at all, but, and then you're going out and you're drinking and it's, it's a party. mean, like I, you're right. You're working hard. You're at the gym, you're playing, but you're also like, you're partying. It's like.

Eric Fischer (08:41)
No, but you're, that's it though. Yeah. Your suitcase, your, your suitcase living.

It is,

Frank Spinelli (08:55)
It's like a rockstar, reminds me of, so yeah, that had to be really like jumping out of a car on the highway when you stopped playing, you know? And I get that, that makes sense. That's really great that you thought it was so important for you to use your story to help other athletes who are gonna find themselves in a similar situation or finding themselves in that similar situation.

Eric Fischer (09:01)
No.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, I think it's important to be vulnerable. think it's think it's for me personally, it's it's it's it's it's it's become a conditioned precedent in the way that I live my life is to be open and to share and and for the benefit. Yes, for the benefit of others. But it keeps me in line to, know, selfishly, it keeps me in line. And, you know, I feel like that's important for.

everybody to understand that especially being a male like you're not alone, you know, like there's other people out there that are just like you and that's one thing that I really love about reframe is the community because the togetherness is not only healthy, but it's how we overcome hard things and continue to grow is being with one another.

Kevin Bellack (10:04)
Yeah. And I feel like I was just talking with somebody about this from the standpoint of like, we're all kind of, I kind of said we're all playing chicken. but it's like everybody, nobody talks about it or wants to talk about it because to talk about it would mean I have a problem is how I kind of looked at it. It's like, and I was like, well, I don't have a problem. I'm not an alcoholic. and all that, I'm not going to use that word or whatever, but we're all thinking it.

to some at some point or another, right? I mean, it's not like everybody who drinks is thinking that, I have a problem or or anything like that. But it's like at some point, at a certain point, it's becomes, you know, not not fun anymore or not fun as much or it becomes a coping mechanism that isn't that's a maladaptive one. Right. And so.

Eric Fischer (10:29)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Bellack (10:54)
it takes somebody to say something to be like, yeah, that's exactly how I feel too. Or, I'm not I'm not drinking right now. I've been thinking about that. I need to do something. How does that how do you how are you doing it? And just open that door, right? Just a crack. I think that's so helpful.

Eric Fischer (11:08)
Yeah, yeah.

Frank Spinelli (11:11)
Yeah, you know, it's so funny that you mentioned that because when you work with clients and I don't know if you had this similar experience, a lot of them come in without wanting to admit any kind of, I have a problem, but they're there. So they obviously realize something's wrong. And that's why I hate these words. Like, you know, I'm an alcoholic or I can't, it's just like, I think you get to a point, or at least I got to the point where I looked in the mirror and I was like, I don't know who this is. And I expected more from my life.

Kevin Bellack (11:30)
Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (11:39)
And, know, there is a great deal of shame involved in it. I think, yeah, you're right. mean, Eric, you know, going to reframe and connecting with people and hearing their stories. I've said it over and over again. I was one of those interlopers. was on the app, but not on the app. I'd never went to a meeting in my life. And then one day I was like, all right, let me go and really hide. those meetings are the game changer. Hearing people share and being vulnerable.

You know, not didn't make me feel better about myself. It just made me feel like, I wasn't alone. And I think that's what a lot of people relate to is that, ⁓ this is not just a me thing. This actually, a lot of people feel this way. So.

Eric Fischer (12:24)
Well, the togetherness of it all, I mean, as human beings, we're so rooted in connectivity and togetherness, you can take the most malevolent, nihilistic criminal and put them in isolation and that their brain turns on them. So one could argue that that's the worst form of torture would be isolation. so healing is, would it be? Yeah, healing, yeah, so they say that's what they say, yeah, that you're right, yeah.

Frank Spinelli (12:43)
action.

Kevin Bellack (12:47)
Yeah. Yeah, that's and that's one of the questions I have here. I was going to ask both of you and yeah, that we could discuss was what's something people misunderstand about addiction or behavior change. And I think that is a big one. It's like that. Sure, we can do a lot of things by ourself, but I think we also do things that we think we do by ourself that we get the benefit of other people teaching us in the past or.

supporting us now, but we don't acknowledge as much. it's like, could do stuff by herself, anything, any kind of behavioral change, but is that the best way to do it? Like why, if we could get help and it supports us and helps us more, I think, I think that's one of the biggest misunderstandings that I hear is the fact that, ⁓ a, can do this. I should just be able to do this. I can do, I can do all these things over here, whether it's at my job or somewhere else.

I can do all these other things. Why can't I do it here? And I think it's understanding, well, what's going on over here and just understanding the whole process. But what are your thoughts on various misunderstandings, whatever they might be, what comes to mind for you?

Frank Spinelli (14:00)
Well, I can tell you, I think you're on the right track. Addiction has a stereotype. We see it as the person of the street that's unhoused, that's asking you for money. We think that is an alcoholic. Or one of the things that we do constantly among people in small groups is we try to relate to each other in forms of stereotypes. So, and even when they're funny or

Possibly true. They're damaging. So I if I say to you guys well, I'm Italian and that's why I talk with my hands It's a way of me trying to minimize myself and trying to stereotype myself and we do that specifically with alcohol as the other so I'm not as bad as Kevin because I have a job I'm not as bad as Eric because I'm managing, you know

a career and I'm not got kids or where I don't have kids, but you know what I mean? Like we look at the other instead of just saying what you just said, which is look internally. So I, I feel that this has become problematic. I want to do something. I'm going to employ a team, a coach, or use an app to understand the science behind it and make myself better. And I think people get stuck right at that threshold of saying, so, take away the word.

That's what I say a lot in my one-on-ones. Don't call yourself anything. Just say you want something better for yourself. And really, I think Eric, you said it earlier, there are so many people who don't even know they want better from their lives. They're just stuck in their lives. And once you give them, once we remove alcohol or whatever substance they're struggling with, you realize that you have a whole life.

Eric Fischer (15:31)
Mm.

Frank Spinelli (15:41)
and that you can start planning. And so that's where I think those short-term goals, long-term goals come in because it's goals outside of drinking. And I think those are the biggest misconceptions is that, you know, I am not that person. I'm really not that bad. Or I don't, I should be able to do this on my own because of ⁓ X, Y, and Z. And that's really probably when you need it the most help. And also,

I think people get stuck, I don't know if you guys feel this way, on the rock bottom, where, well, I didn't hit rock bottom, or I had a rock, rock bottom's wherever you feel like you've had enough. You know, it doesn't have to be a DUI. I mean, and if it is, you know, we'll manage that. But I think people think of these really trope, stereotypic, alcohol movie ways of looking at it, instead of just saying, what do you want? And the good news, and I'll stop here, is that,

Kevin Bellack (16:15)
Yeah.

It's relative. Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (16:37)
You're seeing that switch. I mean, you're seeing it now that the World Health Organization says, we don't really understand why anybody drinks anymore. We don't find any nutritional value in it as opposed to the long ago. And we said, yeah, two glasses of wine isn't a bad thing every day. And you're seeing more and more like the Gen Zers, maybe they're using more marijuana. That's possibly true, but they're definitely drinking less. And I think they're looking at it as a generational thing and seeing their parents and their grandparents and just the

Eric Fischer (16:39)
Thank

Frank Spinelli (17:07)
What's the benefit of it only that, you know, makes people depressed and causes a lot of other medical problems that you could avoid if you just didn't drink or cut back severely.

Eric Fischer (17:19)
Yeah, I agree. Well said, Frank. I think that we we we do we think of the the addict, the alcoholic and if we close our eyes, we visualize that person. I was look, I did all the way up until I almost died from this thing and had to go to the hospital, went to inpatient rehab because I was so scared to ask for help. You know, I was so scared to ask for help. You know, interestingly, men, we will suffer internally and quietly even in the event of our own demise.

And I find that to be terrifying, you know, honestly, because we, need to hold up this kind of this, ⁓ this, this, this, this wall of strength and, I can do it all. And then, but, but, know, I was so wrong. I was so wrong. got into rehab and I can remember waking up in, in, in Okeechobee, Florida, outside of, of Orlando. And I thought to myself, man, not only is the sun shining, but I'm around people that

are the opposite of what I thought it was gonna be like. I'm in rehab with attorneys and salespeople and, know, I mean, you know, normal, just like us right here, you know? You know, quote unquote normal people, but we all have our secrets. Most choose to hide those better than others. And when you break free of that, and I think you said it well as well, that once we zoom out,

Frank Spinelli (18:25)
Yeah.

Eric Fischer (18:41)
and we understand that it's a okay to raise our hand and say, Hey, I need some help here. not only do we heal, but we realize we're not alone and we have the ability to choose and we have the ability to build our life in such a way that it's empowering. We can feel it and integrate that into our vision. If we want to call it that and start marching towards that. And the best people that I've been around now having the ability to look back, they're all surrounded by whether it's an executive coach, a business coach,

a life coach, a therapist, if not all the above, a community like Reframe. that's how we, you know, not, not, not just overcome the alcohol component and, the, or any other piece of novelty, if we want to call, just kind of like put them into a bucket, but we get to enjoy the fruits of our life, you know? And, and, and then we also are able to stand up and say no more than we're saying yes and set boundaries and say,

and be the best we can be if we take care of ourself as a byproduct of that we can be there for those that we love.

Frank Spinelli (19:40)
You know, when you said that about men having this added layer, I was thinking about the number one reason women feel shame is, can you guess? No, imagine what women feel most shameful about themselves. What about it? Can you guess? All right, you ready? Body image.

Eric Fischer (19:51)
They're higher in neuroticism. They are.

Frank Spinelli (20:05)
They feel ashamed about the way they look. Second is being a mother, like how good a mother they are. And women tend to like compare themselves to each other. Men, it's the other thing, being shameful of not being this bread-winning house, know, father, family man, this pinnacle that we have. And I think that's a lot of it. You know, what's really very endearing is that how many clients I get that are anonymous that are healthcare providers.

Kevin Bellack (20:05)
Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (20:33)
which has another level of shame because they should know better. Like, you know, healthcare providers should know better. You know the science. And one of the things that really, it breaks my heart is that they don't want to share our meetings because they're afraid people will know who they are. And I've gotten to a point where I think it's about framing, you know, really it's like, don't come in. I think you should come in with your head held high.

I want better for my life. This is not how I envisioned myself. I'm here to be a better person. I think when you start to look at it that way, like, you shouldn't feel ashamed of this choice. This is a decision you're making for yourself, not the decisions happening to you. There's so many people who don't get help for that very reason, and it's about the shame or the guilt, and it's all woven into it together. But when I finally do meet people,

and they let down their guard and they say, well, I can't let anybody know. I, you know, I'm a lawyer or a doctor or whatever they are. And you just think, let that go and don't worry about it. Just deal with what, what do you want? I feel like that when you start there, it's like, what do you want actually beyond this, you know, drinking. But yeah.

Eric Fischer (21:46)
Thank

Well, mean,

if you think about that reason as we mature into adults, at least by age, right? Because it depends on, yeah, I mean, it depends on how our childhood affects us if we hang on to some of those childhood identities, but we lose the spirit of play as we get older. And we lose because of the explicit and implicit rules and laws from the family, the teachers, the coaches, the university, work, and then...

Frank Spinelli (21:59)
Some of us.

Eric Fischer (22:18)
government, if we want to call it that. And so we lose the spirit of play because now we have the burden of responsibility, oftentimes involuntary responsibility that we did not take on that we, know, responsibility that we actually want. Some of it is, is, is inherited nonetheless. But when we, you know, the spirit of play and joy and happy and laughter and curiosity, the only way we can laugh freely is if our worries are dismissed even momentarily so we can be present.

mindfully present so we can laugh at a joke. Otherwise, if we're not laughing at a joke, something else is on our mind. And so when we, when we take effort to zoom out, gain perspective and find those little moments of independent thinking, creatively, analytically, going for a walk, then we can, Frank, to your point, we can start to understand like, yeah, we, can choose, you know, I can remove this and I can add that and I can get help here. And then slowly alcohol entering our life is progressive and

it's progressive on the other side as well. So yeah, I think that the spirit of play is important as an adult because otherwise we were staying in the desert of confusion and aimlessness.

Frank Spinelli (23:28)
really like that. think pausing has been the biggest turning point for me in my across the board in my life. I think people don't pause and to be pausing it means you're being present and you're clear headed and whatnot and you can see you can ponder and I have these four P's that I anchor my whole life to and I teach people what I learned which is you have to practice pausing. So

when I'm doing it right now, like when you're talking, I'm telling myself, don't jump on his period of the end of his sentence, just stop and listen and pay attention, count to two and just hear people and practice this because in real life, if somebody is needling you or poking you, you wanna just, you wanna go up here. And I think that gets everybody all out of their comfort zone. And I think if you just pause and say,

Okay, so I noticed for me the big challenge is to pause and just be present and listen, actually listen to what you're saying instead of just getting ready to talk myself.

Kevin Bellack (24:39)
Yeah. And that pause, mean, you can apply it to so many different things. And it's so important to insert that in, right? It's like, instead of just, you know, I hear it in meetings, it's better to respond than react, right? Reaction is that immediate thing. Response is the pause and thinking about it. And to be fair,

Eric Fischer (24:43)
Yeah, ⁓ yay.

Frank Spinelli (24:44)
Everything.

Kevin Bellack (25:01)
I was just a couple, about two minutes ago, three minutes ago, I was sitting here. I wasn't listening because I was like, what did Frank, what did Frank, my ADHD brain was like, what did Frank say that I wanted to touch on? And, but no, so I have to deal with that too. but the, but yeah, the pause it's like, cause we don't do that. We, we, we react automatically based on the past and previous ways of doing things.

And I think that's one of the hardest things to do is to pause and reflect on like, okay, well, what else can I do now? You know, and I'm talking here a little bit about the, uh, if I'm getting an urge to have a drink or if I'm worried about something, how can I pause and just like, it's not even about alcohol, but it's like, Oh, I'm worried about something happening in the future or maybe tomorrow or whenever. And just pausing and being like, all right, well, let's look at it right now. What can I do?

Like, how can I approach that? And anyway, there's so many just yeah, just remembering pause. I had that. I'm surprised I don't have that as a tattoo somewhere. As a reminder. ⁓ But yeah, yeah, just the two little lines. Yep. I like it. I might add that on.

Frank Spinelli (26:05)
You just need a button tattoo to pause. But no,

Eric Fischer (26:05)
Yes, sir.

Frank Spinelli (26:14)
that's true. And you're right. It's, it's about everything. It's like, it's, it's not only the reaction that you're having, but you have, have you ever been in a conversation with somebody and you know, they're not listening to you and you're reacting. And the best thing for you to do is to just not react in the moment, but

This, you know, we're talking about it like it's easy. This is work. This, when we talk about we're doing the work, that's the work. The work is don't jump on people's end of their sentence. Pause. Ask yourself, why am I, like you brought up a really important thing when we, especially folks that are mindfully moderating and they're at a party, you know, it's like, tell them, don't drink right away. Pause. Think, drink with intention. What am I having another drink for? Maybe have something non-alcoholic.

Kevin Bellack (26:35)
Yeah. Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (27:02)
Honestly, I find it's a lot more work to be mindfully moderate. think it's a, you know, you're in your head the entire time, if you're doing it correctly. Otherwise you're just getting on that, you know, the F at bandwagon and you're you're just like, whatever. And that's what I try really to implement with myself where people is like, be present in the moment. Are you having fun? Do you need to drink? Can you have something else?

And think about all the things, pondering is the last part, know, think of all the things you're going to gain, you know, the joy of missing out if you didn't go overboard with drinking in the next day and having a good night's sleep and remembering the conversations you had. And I think when we talk about work and the work, and when people say I'm putting in the work, that's what I think it means. It's like, what are the, what are the tools I can rely on when things are getting a little bit

you know, hectic or in a tense situation.

Eric Fischer (28:00)
Yeah, I think it's on the, on the pause and slowing down. I, you know, we're, we're all old enough, to, grew up analog and you know, if you, if you ride your bike down the street and your buddy can't play, you know, you're not riding your bike with your phone. You're so there's, there's built in when we talk about boredom and slowing down and pausing growing up, analog was kind of built in to our life, at scale. so.

One of the tools that I use for myself that I, look, they really like it, but it's hard, driving in the right-hand lane on the highway with no stimulation. If you're walking in a group, if you're in a New York city or what have you, and you're in a group and you tend to walk fast, go in the back lane, go in the back of the group to walk. When you're at the grocery store, don't go to the self checkout, purposefully pick.

Frank, you're like, no way. It's hard.

Frank Spinelli (28:49)
No, I'm just, I didn't know these were

like tricks to learn how to pause. This is great.

Eric Fischer (28:53)
But it's, it's,

it's, it's really cool. You go into the longest line, no stimulation. when you're in a group setting, match the slowest drinker, match the slowest eater, you know, these tools at skit. they, they push on the nervous system and then, and then naturally there's going to be breathing with this, whether you think about it or not, there's breath work with this because, because you're so used to going so fast today's world is so fast, you know, you know, we don't, we don't, ⁓ pieces engineered.

And so you're not ordering peace and solitude and tranquility and the spirit of play maybe ⁓ from Amazon, know? Like we have to create this in a fast paced world. And so I think it's important because that also gives the, most of us think we think, but I don't think we think. I don't think we think creatively, strategically, analytically, critically, because of our life is so fast, we manage.

Kevin Bellack (29:32)
Yeah.

Eric Fischer (29:48)
one thing to the next, especially if we have young children, I will say. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, that's a good one.

Frank Spinelli (29:51)
Well, we're creating ADD. So let me ask you both, because

you both have children, correct? Do you allow, like these are just obvious things, I do not have children. I have a four-legged son, but he doesn't have a phone. Do you allow phones at the dinner table?

Eric Fischer (29:59)
Yes.

Kevin Bellack (29:59)
Yes.

Heh.

Eric Fischer (30:06)
Hahaha

Kevin Bellack (30:09)
it

Frank Spinelli (30:14)
Kevin's like guilty.

Kevin Bellack (30:16)
yes, otherwise I wouldn't have my phone at the dinner. No.

Eric Fischer (30:20)
Well, your daughter's a little older though, right?

Kevin Bellack (30:21)
My, yeah, my

daughter's senior in high school and, ⁓ and it's kind of laughing too, because we have a table that's our kind of, you know, table that we would eat at that houses, you know, whatever papers and things, book bags or whatever. And, and we joke that the coffee table or the little table in our, living room, is our dining room table, ⁓ that we eat at usually, cause there's just three of us. So,

Frank Spinelli (30:24)
yeah, that's all right.

Eric Fischer (30:24)
Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (30:44)
Ha

Kevin Bellack (30:48)
But yeah, like we'll all kind of have those. Yes, we have them. Long answer.

Frank Spinelli (30:53)
Yeah, because for

myself, mean, you know, like I said, we don't have children. So I've tried not to have the phone at the dinner table. But I also am trying to do this. I try to do these little things like you were mentioning, but I have to employ a couple of those. It's like if we're, you know, when you're at the end of the day and you're going to watch TV, it's like, I personally am like no more phone. Like I may look at it again, but especially

I like to read before I go to bed and I notice like, I'm like, put the phone away. Cause you could scroll all the time. And I think that just forget it. You're never going to go to sleep because you're just revving yourself up and one more video or one more reel. So I like that walking behind the slowest person, but don't, what if you get up on their back and they're like, get away from me. What are you doing?

Eric Fischer (31:41)
Back up,

back up, Frank. Back up.

Frank Spinelli (31:49)
There's this creepy doctor like riding

Kevin Bellack (31:51)
Yeah. If I, if I'm with my

Frank Spinelli (31:52)
up my back.

Kevin Bellack (31:54)
wife, that is not going to happen. Or my wife will be farther down. She can't stand slow walkers, slow talkers, whatever. ⁓ yeah.

Eric Fischer (31:59)
You

Frank Spinelli (32:00)
Yeah.

Eric Fischer (32:01)
It's hard.

It's hard. It's hard. And I think, you know, depending on, know, Frank, you mentioned earlier, ⁓ or Kevin, maybe you have rock bottom, depending on the severity of the outcome. And, and, and, and also I want to caveat that by saying, what may not be serious for somebody else is very serious for the individual, you know? So it's all relative. but if when you're, you know, change is hard, you know, one could argue that

We only change for two primary reasons. The pain of our current situation is worse than the pain that it's gonna take to overcome and heal. And then the other way, more optimistically, would be something like I set upon myself a vision that is so outlandish. That's that unreasonable, everyone calls you unreasonable, but for the person, it's like I sleep, I dream about it, I eat, I drink, I think about it, it's all consummating and ruminating. So therefore it's.

part of my identity and I am manifesting it as such before I actually obtain it. And so I think that change is very hard and the hard reality is that there will be things in our life that need to go. And one thing that I found very valuable for myself as well as other people is to slow on purpose, slow your entire life down as you see it.

Slow, and that includes the phone in the evening, the phone in the morning, and it's slow, and there's tremendous amounts of humility when we start small, because otherwise that could be argued as our ego and our pride working on us. And so when we start very, if we think we're too good to start small, then what is that? What does that say about us if I'm too good to start down here? And so I think slowing down, slowing everything.

Frank Spinelli (33:36)
Say about us.

Eric Fischer (33:46)
way down, which includes how we drive too. So like right hand lane, not all the time, not all the time. Somebody watching this is going to be like this Eric guy.

Frank Spinelli (33:49)
You know what, you know what, I, I love that. I know, I know I'm joking. No, but the other

part of it is like, you know, even, even with work or I find myself not reacting to an email, like not just going like, my God, I got to respond to this person. It's my boss or whatever. And just saying, okay, you got an email from your boss. Relax.

How important is this? You're going to answer in a timely fashion because I see people, my other colleagues who will respond and it's a mess. They didn't even spell check it. And I'm like, dude, what was so important that you had to rush to answer? And then I think to myself, should, you should answer that same question. So maybe it's a lot what you're saying. Slow down. There's no rush. Nothing is that urgent. If it is urgent, then answer it. But

really, I like that whole thing. I think I need to write that on a t shirt. Maybe Kevin, you should make one slow down radical radical. What is that? We slowing down and we can think of a word radical pacing radical pacing.

Kevin Bellack (34:54)
⁓ practice radical empathy.

Eric Fischer (34:57)
Just, yeah, just be like, be like Bruce Lee, man. Be like water, you know, be like water.

and, ⁓ but you know, all that, like you just described that, that, that, that fight or flight, the amygdala kind of taken over. that's all that, that all, ⁓ that at the end of the day and the sun's going down, all those sorts of behaviors, lend itself to escapism, you know, and, and, and, and then here we are at that 5 PM hour, 6 PM and then.

Kevin Bellack (35:05)
So again.

Frank Spinelli (35:19)
Right, right.

Eric Fischer (35:23)
you know, God forbid something goes wrong at the house or something unpredictable with the kids or the partner or what have you. And all of a sudden it's like, where's the wine? You know, like right now I need it.

Frank Spinelli (35:32)
Yeah. Yeah. No, you're right.

So you're always keyed in because you're living that life of immediacy, responding quick, driving in the fast lane, doing self checkout that you would keep that high. It's like, all right, now I need a drink. I deserve that drink. And that's a whole topic in itself, the reward drink. And then I had a, I had a terrible day. I need a drink. You know, like there's always an occasion to drink.

Eric Fischer (35:40)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (35:55)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, there's always, yeah, there's always a speck. You can make anything a special occasion. Yeah, the pause, the slowing down. And Frank, you mentioned something about, I think I would say, I don't know if this is a reach, but like removing, like, because I think we typically will, the reason we need to slow down is

typically because we have too much in our life. And yes, we have to do things. have to, whether you have kids or pets or you're a caregiver or your job or whatever it is, like just kind of keep overloading our schedules with stuff. Some of it, some of you have to, yeah, some of you have to do, but you talked about putting your phone away when you read at night or something like that. It's like, if I want to do this thing, I have to do this thing.

Eric Fischer (36:23)
Mm.

Frank Spinelli (36:39)
And it's not healthy.

Kevin Bellack (36:50)
I have to put, that's why I have like a walking billboard for that Opal app that shuts down my phone at certain times and blocks me from using the things. Now the issue is I have to let it turn on. So there are ways around it, but usually it just blocks it all out and I can't use it. I can't go down that rabbit hole of YouTube or Instagram or whatever.

Frank Spinelli (36:57)
⁓

Kevin Bellack (37:12)
I think for you know, sometimes we have to find ways that force our hand, you know, as far as like not allowing us to do something. You know, not having alcohol in the house if I don't want to drink at home, like so whenever that six o'clock stressor hits, and I'm like, I want a glass of wine. It's not there, right? Yes, I could go get it. But that adds that extra barrier and it adds a little pause. But yeah, like removing.

Eric Fischer (37:18)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Bellack (37:37)
what to remove too, I think, and what's important and kind of that's a slow process, I think like we can do it quick, but that's more it's harder, right? Whenever it's everything's intertwined, whether it's our jobs or, you know, their family life and whatever we're doing there, it's how do I little by little change, you know, redirect this ship? It's like I can't just turn it on dime, but

Eric Fischer (37:59)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Bellack (38:03)
where can I do it little by little? And I think that's what we miss. We just want to change it. We just want to fix it. I think it's one of the biggest barriers too is like, we don't we want to do we want to stop something like let's just say I want to stop drinking, or I want to cut back and moderate. But I want to keep everything else the same and it just doesn't work.

Frank Spinelli (38:06)
Yeah.

You know, when you both were talking, I was thinking that my takeaway is I like this idea of small incremental wins to bolster your confidence. So I'm going to do these little things step by step. I'm going to change and it's going to make me feel confident that I can do it. And when you were talking, Kevin and saying, you know, the, the, inclination is to do a big one. But then when we do the big ones, we feel deprived. We're like, ⁓ I did that. And now I can't do that anymore.

And I think, you know, I think that was really the key is what you're, what you just were describing, Eric, is like doing the little things like, for example, I'm going to be totally honest with you. So we're taping these podcasts, right? We have the schedule. I, I'm going to be at a conference next week. And in my mind, because my craziness was like, I can do it.

How do I figure out a way? I'm in Germany, by the way. I'm going to figure out a way to make it because I don't want to say no, because I'm a people pleaser. You know, and I was thinking to myself, relax. They'll, can manage without you. It'll be better if you're present and you're fully there and you're enjoying yourself as opposed to just being like, yeah, I can call. It'll be like three o'clock in the morning. know, like it's crazy how what you can, the merry-go-round you're willing to get on.

which I think is what a lot of people describe, especially in Reframe, but the drinking is like, you'll get on that merry-go-round knowing, knowing the outcome, but you'll do it anyway. And I give this example all the time. If a child touches a stove and burns its finger, it says pain and something imprints in its brain and they won't touch the stove anymore. But a person like amongst us,

could have the worst hangover of their life and still think, well, better have the hair of the dog that bit me because I need more. And it's not a moral failing. It's because your brain has been rewired to say, no, we need more alcohol. So get with it. And I think that's one of the things it's that merry-go-round that you get on that you realize, I don't think I've ever met a reframer ever who ever said, did, I.

Eric Fischer (40:27)
Mm-hmm.

Frank Spinelli (40:39)
I didn't know what I was getting into. They knew when they took that drink after being hung over that they were getting back on that merry-go-round and they did so willingly, even though they felt the guilt and the shame, but it was what I hearing now is if you could just make one small step, that's why I feel so good when somebody comes on a meeting and they're like, it's day one. And I'm like, you know what? It was the first day you didn't drink. You showed up at a meeting. You shared.

These are all wins. These are great things. Don't come here with your head down. This is a day one. That's a great achievement of you. So I look forward to that, I do like, I'm going to, all right, so I'm going to take home today is drive in the slow lane more often and not store.

Kevin Bellack (41:23)
Yeah.

Eric Fischer (41:24)
Yeah, yeah. Well, our brain is anticipatory in nature, you know, and dopaminergic. And so it narrows, there's the alcohol, gimme, gimme, gimme, dopamine, right? Because it can't differentiate between something healthy and not, it just wants.

And then starting small, each task, and then you can think about starting something, abandoning it, it's going to linger on you until you complete it. And so these small little actions start and complete, start, complete. They stack Jacob's ladder upwards into the ineffable. And so it's like, and people have, think expectations wrong as well. It's like, set a goal too far out. So as I marched towards it, I abandoned it because it doesn't feel like I'm close, right? But then.

the smaller we shrink that goal, it's more palpable in terms of that momentum and action fuels momentum, not the other way around. And so it's the action of that creates the momentum forward. And that's sustainable, right? Because if alcohol is over here and our life is over here, if these compel us, then over the course of time and have deep meaning with adventure and responsibility, et cetera, inside of our life,

Then the alcohol stays put because this over here is worth more to us than this, then the lust and the pleasure staying in bed. That's Marcus Aurelius, Kevin. know you love stoic philosophy.

Frank Spinelli (42:45)
Yeah, it's amazing how many people

I just love

that you said Jacob's Ladder. was like, good movie, by the way. ⁓ you know, I think I couldn't agree more. I feel that every client wants to get to 90 days and I'm like, can we just park that for a second? Can you get, can we do a week? Let's just do something really doable and win and see how you feel and reflect on it.

Eric Fischer (42:52)
Yeah.

Thank

Kevin Bellack (43:05)
Yeah.

Eric Fischer (43:06)
Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (43:16)
And I get it. get it. I totally get it. Cause that was me. I want to be a year. want to be nine months. You know, you know, I want to be able to tell these, big stories about the 90 day meeting and say, hit a hundred, know, like sometimes you hear these and it is a double edged sword. And I, I do, I don't know if you guys enjoy them. I like the mixed meetings where people are either alcohol free and mindfully moderating. I think it's one of those things where you need to be exposed to everything. Cause that's the way life is.

Nobody's gonna be like, I'm drinking. I'm sorry. Trigger warning. You know, you're watching TV. And what I love is, when people will direct message me saying I feel so bad because everybody has like these hundred days and I'm like, I'm like, I didn't drink. got five cups this week. And I'm like, but that's good. That's your journey. And you should, if that was your choice, you should feel really proud. I think it's one of the

Kevin Bellack (44:02)
Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (44:08)
That to me is where is what separates reframe from anything else. It's the ability to Really? Reinforce in people that we're using science To make better choices for you not for you or you it's for what's right for me And that could be very different and I think what that's what gives people I think confidence which is what alcohol does it leeches you of your confidence so you don't know what you're thinking

Kevin Bellack (44:35)
Yeah.

Yeah. that, yeah, what's, what's, what works for you, but it's inevitable of what comparison is the thief of joy, right? And you mentioned earlier on about, uh, comparing downward, right? Like, well, at least I'm not as bad as Kevin, right? And, and that's an easy, that's an easy way to justify what, how I'm showing up, but also we compare upward and we feel bad about ourselves too.

And it's like, how can I compare upward and have that pull me like, Oh, look for, you know, Frank's in 90 days. I can get there too. Um, versus, Oh, I'm never going to get there. And, and I hear it a lot and I try and it's not correcting, but I'll, I'll throw in a little bit of context when, you know, I hear people where I'll just throw out random numbers like, Oh, I've been on reframe for

41 days and I'm 40 days with alcohol free right now. And so everybody who's within that kind of window of time or fairly new, just threw their hands up and be like, what the hell's wrong with me? Right? And I'll always throw out that awesome work, right? For that person, great job. And for everybody else who's sitting there like, you know, why can't it click for me? I'm like, you don't know what this person did leading up in

Eric Fischer (45:44)
Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (45:59)
to the least past 41 days, right? They could have tried this in many different ways over the last decade. And this kind of is where it's sticking perhaps or whatever. that comparison, like you don't know, we're never comparing apples to apples, we're different, right? So, you know, compare upward and motivate yourself that way. Don't compare downward and be like, well, at I didn't do that poorly. And say like, what are the people?

who are further along than me, who are successful at mindfully moderating, who are successful at being alcohol free, what are they doing differently? What can I try?

Eric Fischer (46:32)
Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (46:33)
That's a good point.

Eric Fischer (46:34)
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. heard that reminds me of something I heard from Mayweather, the boxer. He was on this guy's, you know, when he was coming up into authority and fame and money and et cetera, he got started getting invited to all these big yachts. And, and his buddy asked him, like, weren't you intimidated?

that you're on these people's yachts. And he said, no, because I'm going to get my, I'm going to get me a yacht. So I'm asking them what they do to get their yacht, you know, because one day I'm going to invite them to my yacht. And sure enough, but Kevin, think that's well said. It's like, ask if somebody's doing well.

Kevin Bellack (46:59)
Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (47:09)
It's like, ask them, what are you doing? You know, what are you doing for your weekends? What are you doing when you're in social environments? What are you doing when you're on a work conference and, you know, that there's going to be, you know, at the end of the conference, there's all the drinking and et cetera. How are you succeeding through all of this? and, and so it's not a comparison. It's like, Hey, you know, we're in this together. You're at reframe, I'm at reframe, or maybe it's not a reframe. Maybe it's at a church or what have you somewhere else outside. It's like, you know, asking somebody what they did to achieve and, and,

Because I think it's important to understand surrounding yourself with people who are already where you're looking to go is an important mindset.

Frank Spinelli (47:47)
Yeah, in life in general, you know, just I love that Kevin. think that's another t-shirt. If you could just figure out what is that guy doing right? Or that woman doing right? Then maybe I need to learn it. I find that that is really when you start, I start leading forward and listening to people. like, these are great. Cause I am always feeling, I'm sure you guys do too. Like I'm learning just as much every meeting than I'm, you know, helping someone.

Eric Fischer (47:48)
Yeah, and life. Yeah, yeah, And life, yeah.

Frank Spinelli (48:14)
And the one thing that makes me really sad is when people come on and they're very apologetic or they're like, I know I'm not doing well. I'm like, you need to really turn it around and just find a way to look at things in a positive way. And it's tough. I'm a pessimistic person myself, and I'm always looking at what I could have done better. Even on meetings, I'll hang up and think, I could have answered that better, or I could have helped that guy.

more and maybe I should reach out, but I do think it goes back to your, Eric, the small things. You just have to do one small thing today. And one of the things I've been doing in the group coaching is I do it. There is this thing I read about pillars being sleep, movement, nutrition, and stress. And you rate them from one to 10. How well you're doing from one to 10, 10 being great. I'm managing like, you know, nutrition. Great. I'm doing great.

But stress, I'm a three. And if you just pick that one and say, okay, stress this week, what is one thing I can do? What one small thing. And it may be what Eric said, just drive in the slow lane tomorrow for 10, for 10 minutes, or just, you know, listen to something meditative. think we do think in big, we have to do these big grandiose things.

Kevin Bellack (49:38)
Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (49:40)
to actually do the work when actually you're so right. I think that's the theme today is being present and doing something small that you can feel really good about yourself.

Kevin Bellack (49:51)
And it's not, I used to think like doing the life wheel and things like that and great, you know, rating like, and stress and it's not going from a three to a 10, right? It's asking myself, what can I do this week to get myself to a four? You know, and I think that bringing it down is huge because otherwise it's like, well, how do I fix all this and fix it? Yeah, fine.

Frank Spinelli (50:00)
It's not.

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (50:06)
Well, yeah.

Frank Spinelli (50:12)
i'll never be a ten! or you're at

a meeting and you're like erik's a ten, i need to be a ten!

Eric Fischer (50:18)
Well, you know Kevin it might not be a three to four it might be a three to a three point one You know like it might be I mean really really I mean because that's

Kevin Bellack (50:23)
Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (50:26)
Or,

you know, it's even more important when I tell this to patients all the time. Don't look at the one number. One number is data in time. It's a Polaroid. Look at the trend over time. That's why I like milestones. I do. I mean, I think milestones are fun. They give people a sense of accomplishment. But what I think about is, the four pillar exercise today, revisit it in two weeks, a month.

And then ask yourself, where am I with those numbers? And look at what the data is. If there's anything that really changed my whole outlook is this is a nonlinear journey, but it's progressive. So as long as you're going in the right direction, it's good. However long it takes, don't worry about it. Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (50:53)
Yeah.

Yeah. And look for that progression.

Like there is progress, even if, you know, it's easy to dismiss like, nothing, I'm not doing anything differently. Nothing's changed. It's like, all right, well, okay. You've been doing this for, you've been working on this for a year. This past year. Yeah. This pat and you're still here. A and this past year, like the number of drinks you had compared to the year before that, like, is it less like, and

Frank Spinelli (51:23)
You're here.

Eric Fischer (51:33)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Bellack (51:35)
Yeah. The answer could be no, I drank more. Obviously I'm trying. I like to ask questions that I kind of know the answer to. and, usually it is that you're, can see progress somewhere and yeah, where is that? But it's, I like your comment about like doing it two weeks from now, two weeks from then it's a snapshot in time, right? How I feel today about that could drastically change in two weeks because of anything. ⁓

Frank Spinelli (51:58)
I'm laughing

because it reminds me of my dad used to look at the microwave and go, hurry, hurry. I'm like, dad, relax. It's already fast. Like be patient. But that's the way it is. You know, if you're, if you're too busy thinking it's got to change today, then don't look at it every day. It's like, it's like almost like weighing yourself every day. Well, don't do that.

Eric Fischer (52:04)
Yeah

Kevin Bellack (52:09)
Yeah.

Eric Fischer (52:21)
Well, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's, it's, it's

also, and Frank, you said this, this early, the, ⁓ cognitive load that, that, that, that is, is oftentimes all consuming with a moderating and I can only have it on this day and I can only have three and because our brain always wants what it cannot have, you know, and

So you can think about that middle school. If you're infatuated with somebody and you want to take them out and get to know them and you know, you're this little cute little seventh grader and whatever, but your brain, may not, it may, you just may need one date, one coffee to find that that's not the person that you want to date or you might really like them even more, but you don't know yet because you haven't taken them out yet, but you're infatuated. So the brain always is going to be seeking that out. Right. And so when we self-police and put in these imposed

⁓ self-imposed rules and laws, like I can only, the brain says, well, last night you had drinks on the couch watching Netflix and you didn't go out and you were, everything was fine. And then you fell asleep and then you woke up and yeah, you were a little tired, but you still got to work and everything was day. Okay. But, but it's, it's that it's in the brain and the body always, you know, we're always seeking homeostasis too. So it's like, you know, it, it's, it's, it's how can be, how can, how can the self love and self compassion.

and understanding that we can help ourselves while also challenging ourselves too. know, like it's a balance of how much do I need to police myself while still allowing some cognitive flexibility and depth and latitude to continue moving forward, albeit however small we're starting out. But anytime we're like, I can never do this, the brain goes.

Kevin Bellack (54:01)
Yeah.

Eric Fischer (54:06)
You want to bet? You know what I mean? You can never. Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (54:13)
Yeah, I mean, that's

Kevin Bellack (54:09)
Hold my non-alcoholic beer.

Frank Spinelli (54:15)
a, that's a tough one. mean, you brought up something which we could probably spend a whole hour talking about is like, how much do you push your own clients with coaching? Or how much do you wait to see where you are because they're telling you a narrative.

that's probably in their mind, the way they see their lives and you're thinking, I've been with you for a while and I think we need to push this, you know, move the dial a little bit. And I find that you, God, I was just thinking about my own life and like where I was questioning myself and thinking, you know, what have I done and what could I do? And you know, you're right. You want what you can't have, which isn't necessarily always a bad thing, but

Eric Fischer (54:57)
No, no, it's

not. ⁓

Frank Spinelli (55:00)
When it's impossible, then you're just setting yourself up for failure, which I don't like. ⁓

Eric Fischer (55:04)
Yeah. Well, it's delayed.

It's delayed gratification, right? I mean, anytime you sacrifice your version of tomorrow for today, that's pathological.

Now.

Kevin Bellack (55:19)
Anytime

you sacrifice your version of tomorrow for today. That's pathological. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (55:25)
There's a t-shirt, there's a tattoo! ⁓

Eric Fischer (55:26)
It is, it is. It's, it's, those are

sociopathical tendencies. They are. It's like you sacrifice tomorrow for today. Yeah. I mean, people P that's slogan worthy all over social media, but it's psychologically true. And so, and, and, and so, you know, it's, ⁓ it's interesting. They, you know,

Frank Spinelli (55:34)
today. ⁓

Yeah, I don't think so.

Kevin Bellack (55:46)
Because we're programmed

for immediacy, right? On an evolutionary standpoint, like survival, yeah.

Eric Fischer (55:49)
Yeah. Survival survival

Frank Spinelli (55:50)
Yeah.

Eric Fischer (55:54)
and, we're tilted towards, towards pain as well. You know, I mean, we can think way we have positive, we have pain and pleasure way back when we had to do a lot of work for a little bit of reward. You had to spend three, four or five days in the, in the, in the forest to catch your deer. You had to build your, your housing had to be built with your hands and bare feet in the woods. And so a lot of pain.

Frank Spinelli (56:12)
Right, right.

Eric Fischer (56:19)
for a little bit of reward. Now it's tilted the opposite way. so our ability to hold pain and discomfort, our threshold for that is lower than it was just not too long ago, just 25 years ago.

Frank Spinelli (56:25)
Now we want all pleasure and positive reinforcement.

Kevin Bellack (56:27)
Yeah, no pain.

Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (56:39)
Wait, I'm fascinated. So let me ask you something related to that. Do you think this is why the younger generation is so triggered and activated because they are always getting too much positive reinforcement and they never had all that pain, that their pain threshold is very, very small?

Eric Fischer (57:02)
Well, yeah, it's well, well, well, it's. Yeah, I mean, it's it's.

Frank Spinelli (57:03)
I'm sorry if I'm blowing, you know, if I'm taking this in the wrong direction. But what you were saying made

Kevin Bellack (57:05)
would yeah.

Frank Spinelli (57:08)
me think like in my generation, my dad's generation, my God, they worked like dogs. My father had two jobs. I mean, he made nothing. And all he did was try to put me through medical school. And then I'm thinking like, I meet people, especially, you know, when I'm with colleagues and the younger ones, they're like, ⁓ I can't handle that. And I'm thinking, really?

You should be able to handle a lot more than that, know, far be it from me to tell you. But that's interesting that we have, we were programmed for pain, but now it's tilted in the other direction. Wow. Never thought of that.

Eric Fischer (57:35)
Hmm.

Kevin Bellack (57:42)
Yeah, which is probably

better, right? Versus suck it up and just do it or whatever that mentality. ⁓

Frank Spinelli (57:51)
Yeah,

life sucks. Just keep going.

Kevin Bellack (57:53)
Yeah, it's probably good to talk about

like, you know what, I'm not going to work 18 hours today. know, but yeah, finding the balance. Yeah. Walking uphill in the snow.

Eric Fischer (57:59)
It's a balance, yeah.

Frank Spinelli (58:02)
with no shoes on and build my house.

Eric Fischer (58:05)
Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (58:07)
exactly.

Wow, that is something. Yeah, now you have me thinking about what is one small thing I'm gonna do besides driving in the slow lane is definitely, I have to think about being more intentional and now pausing more.

Eric Fischer (58:09)
said.

Kevin Bellack (58:09)
Yeah.

Eric Fischer (58:22)
Well, you know, it's true. know, we, we know it's speaking of kids. We know this to be true. You know, like anytime our child is scared to do something, what do we do? We encourage them to do it. To provide it provided it's safe, you know, because it puts us on the edge. You know, we there's order, there's four primary human domains. There's order, there's chaos, there's sacrifice and they're suffering.

Frank Spinelli (58:31)
See you.

Eric Fischer (58:46)
And so when, when we know a whole lot about a lot of things that's order and chaos is the unknown, the dangerous, unpredictable, but chaos inside of chaos there within also lies our untapped potential. so anytime we step outside of what it is that we know, it puts us on the edge. And that could be argued as the definition of growth. And so when we have, when we have the, the, child who's naive, but also, tangled up with a lot of willpower.

as well and and we say you can do it. You go go try that thing. Go go out there and explore. That's putting them on the edge. And it's a little bit of a spirit in there that pops forward. And now they're a new version of themselves. In the frag in that little fragment of time. That's why we play basketball, pick up basketball with somebody who's at or above our level. Because it's no fun. It's it's authoritarian and and you're tyrant if you

Frank Spinelli (59:36)
of us.

Kevin Bellack (59:37)
Yeah.

Eric Fischer (59:42)
You know, enjoy playing. So yeah. Yeah. So the beauty of life. Yeah. So the beauty of life, you know, if you want, if you want, if you want your best shot at putting alcohol in its proper spot, this is why I'm a big believer in, ⁓ and, and, and taking care of your body, because not only is it cosmetically visible, you know, so you get rewards from outside in, you know, you get the pat on the back and.

Frank Spinelli (59:43)
Yeah, I mean, you could say that about anything. It's like chess or, yeah.

Kevin Bellack (59:47)
Yeah.

We want the goldie locked down.

Frank Spinelli (59:50)
You

Eric Fischer (1:00:11)
you know, whoa, you're looking great. You've lost five pounds. Your skin's cleaning up as well, but it's dopaminergic. So it's positive neurochemically pushing us forward. Right. And then, but also we build trust with ourself for showing up and we confidence is earned, not granted. So each time we go to the gym or go for a walk or go on a hike or go on a little bicycle, you know, expedition, what have you, the brain afterwards goes, ⁓ man, I like that.

You know, like you are just on the bike for 10 minutes. You went on a five minute walk because in six months that walk might be, you might be walking half marathons. You just don't know. And then as a consequence, your nutrition is cleaned up. Your sleep is better. The alcohol stays over here because the brain starts saying, Whoa, I like this. Like when you do those pushups, I really kind of like that. And you're looking better before you take a shower and the looking in the mirror. Like there is some cosmetic to that, but it's, it's intrinsic, ⁓ at, at a root net net.

Frank Spinelli (1:00:56)
Thank

Eric Fischer (1:01:06)
value, it's intrinsic. And so I don't know that the pain is where we grow. There's pain either way. There's pain staying the same and there's pain growing. So I think doing hard things is fundamental to human preservation.

Frank Spinelli (1:01:20)
What were the four chaos order

chaos order? What was it?

Eric Fischer (1:01:25)
Sacrifice and suffering. I don't, yeah, anytime, every day, yeah, every day you go to work, that's sacrifice. Cause you could always be on the couch scrolling on Instagram. You know, that's a sacrifice.

Frank Spinelli (1:01:27)
Sacrifice and suffering. Okay. I'm just

Yeah, okay. Well, I do, do, well, that was interesting.

Eric Fischer (1:01:42)
And

I don't mean that at all from like a religious connotation, although I realize it does have some of that in there.

Frank Spinelli (1:01:46)
No, I'm just curious about it. Some philosophy

of somebody's, right? You know, what you were saying about pushing yourself, I do agree. I also agree wholeheartedly that, well, for me, in my experience, there was always two types of patients. I talk about this, you know, when anybody gets cancer or has a heart attack, my good friend just had open heart surgery. Healthy guy.

blindsided, but he had the surgery. He's like, I'm reading and Frank, I'm going to go to this specialist. There is the engaged person. And then there's the, why did this happen to me? Why? And I find that in our world here, you see almost a mirror of that. You see, I have to give up drinking. was generational. I was going to be, I was going to be an alcoholic anyway. Or there's the.

you know what, I'm working out more. Almost the transfer addiction becomes something really positive, like eating right, exercising. And I'm thinking, that's great. Yeah, those are one of the best transfer addictions. Somebody that's going to just be, I'm gonna be totally into my body and really just take care of myself because, let's face it, we're getting older and that's a counter to our whole existence. So I totally agree with that. think once...

The most, when I see people that I'm working with turn a corner is when they're doing that. When they're, maybe not like marathon running, but at least they're like, you know what? I'm watching what I'm eating. I'm making sure I do my steps. And I'm thinking that's all great.

Kevin Bellack (1:03:17)
Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:03:22)
Yeah.

Kevin, or do you, do you see that as a common denominator? Do you see health and health and, exercise as the client or individual sees it? Cause I mean, you think about exercise, you might think, I've got to be in the gym for an hour. And that's not really what we're talking about here, but do do you see, do you see, exercise and strength as a, as a common denominator for healing from an overcoming alcohol?

Kevin Bellack (1:03:23)
Yeah. ⁓

No, yeah.

I don't know that it's necessary to go into. I I think it's helpful. Like, any time we can help ourselves feel better, right? I don't know. I kind of hesitate to say that it's a common denominator, meaning everybody who's had success with it has done it. But I do feel like focusing on what I'm gaining versus what I'm

Eric Fischer (1:04:05)
right, yeah, I said that wrong,

Kevin Bellack (1:04:13)
deprive you know versus what I'm quote unquote being deprived of. If you know when people see it as that as like oh I can't you know have that anymore and I can't go out with my friends or I can't do this thing again versus what am I gaining from this and that gaining is part of I think a big part could be like how's how's my health what am I gaining from my health perspective and that can take me going to.

Frank Spinelli (1:04:14)
Right.

Kevin Bellack (1:04:40)
work out more or, you know, eat better and things like that. I think it's I think it's definitely helpful to incorporate those things. But I think the focus on what am I gaining versus what am I? Frank, I think you mentioned the joy of missing out before, and I heard something recently on a YouTube clip of somebody saying, Romo, the relief of missing out. And I like that, too. I like that, too. Like from the oh, I'm relieved that I don't feel like.

Frank Spinelli (1:04:57)
Yeah.

⁓ okay. A relief.

Eric Fischer (1:05:04)
⁓

Kevin Bellack (1:05:09)
shit like that person does after, you know, drinking all night or whatever. Um, or whatever it is. Uh, but the, yeah, I think like shifting our, I think it's actually a daily task titled this, like shifting our perspective to gain right away from what am I missing out on? What am I depriving? I don't know. I feel like I kind of went off on a tangent to your question there, but

Eric Fischer (1:05:10)
Mm-hmm.

Frank Spinelli (1:05:32)
⁓ No,

think necessarily it's not necessarily working out. mean, I think why I love those four pillars that I named is the one isn't exercise, it's movement. So if it's dancing, if it's walking, if it's yoga, if it's Tai Chi, I mean, it's like, think part of the...

Eric Fischer (1:05:34)
I thought it was good.

Kevin Bellack (1:05:45)
Movement, yes.

Frank Spinelli (1:05:55)
process of realizing that alcohol is no longer going to be a major part of my life is understanding your identity. So who is this new person? Well, this is person who's going to be more mind, body, spirit, which I believe in. And part of that is being present in your body. And how do you do that through movement? mean, when I, mean, I don't know about you guys, but I'm at a desk all day, like right here. And I literally have to go outside with my dog.

walk when it was at an office, I would walk around the block. mean, it's incorporating movement because we know that movement really does help stimulate neurotransmitters and gets your body moving. So yeah, I think, I think you're both saying the same thing, whether or not it's exercise in a gym or not, it's still activity.

Eric Fischer (1:06:39)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Bellack (1:06:41)
Yeah. Yeah.

That's my, let's see where that cross off already today. I crossed off. have to do in my habit tracker. I have to stretch for five minutes, do two pushups. did five, so I'm good there. ⁓ I have, I have to do 10 after I do the pushups, I have a resistance band on my desk here that I do 10 rows from my back. and then walk one minute and now

Eric Fischer (1:06:54)
Yeah

Frank Spinelli (1:07:02)
wow.

Kevin Bellack (1:07:04)
I would like to do more of those. like to get down and do, put, know, two pushups 10 times a day. And sometimes maybe I'll do four or five. it's like finding, yeah, it's movement. I kind of broke them out for very specific reasons, but at one point I had walk and move and that move could have been stretching that move could have been a dedicated workout, whatever. Yeah. I think broadening and I say that because I think with anything.

Frank Spinelli (1:07:19)
I love that.

Kevin Bellack (1:07:32)
whatever we're doing. You know, I think breaking it down to what's the entry point for me and how can I check off that I did it today? How can I show up for it? Yeah, I'd love to do 45 minute walk every day. I'm probably gonna go down on my treadmill tonight and walk for one minute to check off that box. Because yeah.

Frank Spinelli (1:07:50)
And guess what? But guess what?

You give yourself permission not to do it today. Like that's what I say to people all the time. You can have aspirations of doing whatever you said, like 10 pushups and, but there's going to be a day where you can't. And so you just give yourself permission to say, okay, not today. And it doesn't mean you failed. It's just, you made a choice that today is the day I can't do everything on my list and not feel bad about it, feel good about it, that you made a choice.

Kevin Bellack (1:08:16)
Yeah. Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (1:08:20)
But I love that. I have one where I have to do one minute plank and one minute wall sit. Because I hate doing that. And I'm like, well, at least I'll feel like I've done something and I get off. But I love that you do it like.

Eric Fischer (1:08:27)
Mm.

The wall said

I like the plank and the wall said to especially when that anxiety and the nervous system comes up because it smashes up against that nervous system and then releases. Yeah. Yeah. You hold it until failure and it's just like, Whoa, that was just enough to kind of, can calm down now for a second.

Frank Spinelli (1:08:39)
yeah. You have to engage your core.

Hahahaha

Yeah, that's true.

Kevin Bellack (1:08:52)
And it pushes you past

it, right? Usually because you're like, I want to stop a lot sooner than the timer is going to run out. ⁓

Eric Fischer (1:08:54)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Frank Spinelli (1:08:57)
⁓ god, that was tough. ⁓

Eric Fischer (1:09:02)
Yeah. ⁓

Kevin Bellack (1:09:02)
All right,

so big takeaway for today, drive in the right hand lane and don't pass people. won't be doing that.

Eric Fischer (1:09:10)
Just try it. Just try it for a minute. One exit from one exit to the next.

Kevin Bellack (1:09:13)
⁓

I always, my wife always complains, like she goes downtown still for work and there's two ways to get downtown from where we live. There's, there's hugging the Lake here in Cleveland and driving on like a 35 mile an hour road for the most of it, or going the highway. It's shorter this way. It's faster this way. So she always goes that way. And I'm like, I always went on on Lake road.

Frank Spinelli (1:09:16)
Okay.

Kevin Bellack (1:09:40)
because I loved listening to my audio books and I don't care if it took me five extra minutes or 10 extra minutes. It's not that big of a difference. Plus it was more consistent. Yeah, it was more consistent ⁓ of a drive too. And so I loved it when, we got stuck in traffic. Great, I get to listen to my book more. So it's like, I almost wanted to interject that, like find a reason to be in the slower lane too, that you enjoy it. ⁓ That was mine.

Frank Spinelli (1:09:48)
And you get to see water. You get to see water. Yeah.

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:10:00)
you

Frank Spinelli (1:10:05)
Okay, there you go.

Eric Fischer (1:10:05)
Yeah, Mm-hmm.

Kevin Bellack (1:10:08)
But,

⁓ yeah, she's like, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, yeah, I'm going to take my chances on, on 90 with construction and accidents and all that. ⁓ but, ⁓ all right. think I talked about a lot today. and we'll just maybe start wrapping it up here. since, know, I figured I'd throw out some little fun rapid fire questions for you.

Frank Spinelli (1:10:13)
Take the hot break.

Eric Fischer (1:10:18)
That's funny.

Frank Spinelli (1:10:25)
Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (1:10:36)
And then we can close with you know, what do we learn this week? Maybe if we have any nuggets But simple things coffee or tea

Eric Fischer (1:10:44)
coffee.

Frank Spinelli (1:10:45)
coffee.

Kevin Bellack (1:10:46)
Yeah, I have two coffee tattoos, so I'll just say that as my answer.

Eric Fischer (1:10:49)
do you?

know.

Kevin Bellack (1:10:52)
Alright, next question. Morning person or night owl?

Frank Spinelli (1:10:57)
Morning.

Eric Fischer (1:10:59)
You know that I've struggled my whole life with that Create it. Yeah, so do I like creatively when I'm if I'm writing or whatever creatively I'm better at night Productive in terms of like business and getting things done that are not creatively inclined. I'm better in the morning

Frank Spinelli (1:11:02)
I changed.

Yeah, I like waking up before no one, before everyone. mean...

Kevin Bellack (1:11:19)
Yeah,

Eric Fischer (1:11:20)
Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (1:11:21)
I like that.

Eric Fischer (1:11:21)
Let's see. There's, there's, there's problems with that for me though, because it's like, I don't really have a lane for consistency. I have struggled with that quite a bit, honestly. Getting, getting the slow lane.

Kevin Bellack (1:11:32)
Get in the slow lane.

Frank Spinelli (1:11:32)
No, yeah, I can't help it. Yeah, you're in the slow lane.

No, I even on the weekends, I can't help but get up early. I have a whole routine. If you're productive, I guess.

Eric Fischer (1:11:39)
I mean, I'm still up early. I just don't know how still up early anyway. Kevin, what are you, Kevin?

Are you morning or evening? Are you?

Kevin Bellack (1:11:48)
⁓

No, I'm currently more I've currently been more of a night owl I have been both I've been both a morning person a night owl and both at the same time, which is not good. So I don't recommend that But yeah, like I'm This week after I just came back from vacation this week. I'm focused on Operation early bird for myself. So getting back to it

Frank Spinelli (1:11:53)
Hahaha

Eric Fischer (1:12:11)
Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (1:12:12)
you

Kevin Bellack (1:12:13)
I

have a question here, like one book to change your life. That's a bit dramatic. I'll say what's one book that you would not hesitate to recommend to somebody? Doesn't even have to be like the most, the number one.

Frank Spinelli (1:12:27)
I do have one, honestly, and it is sort of related to somewhat of a journey with alcoholism because she says something in a book, and I wish I knew because I would have looked it up. It's called Special Topics in Calamity Physics. I know it's crazy, but it's about a young girl and her journey with her father, who is a professor, and she's a genius. And the book is written in a very difficult way because there's a lot of annotations, but she said something in the book that

encapsulated the experience of alcohol. And I can't think of the quote, but I'll look it up and I'll tell you next time I'm back on the podcast. But it's one of those books where I read it and I have a rule about reading. If I'm walking with my iPad to the bathroom, then it's a good book because if I can't put it down and it's not for everybody. Some people really criticize the annotation, but I thought it was very original. I really looked.

Eric Fischer (1:13:14)
Mm.

Frank Spinelli (1:13:22)
I always wanted to read more of it. And I thought she said something that made me realize that she understood the journey of people that struggle without.

Eric Fischer (1:13:30)
Hmm. Yeah. I'd say, you know, it's, it's, ⁓ you know, if you want a great psychological read, the middle passage, Hollis rooted in young Gary and psychology, I'd say for this podcast, I'd say, seven habits of highly effective people, Stephen Covey. I think it's traditional. It's practical. There's psychology, there's leadership, there's understanding oneself in an approachable manner. There's sys it's systemized in a way.

through the rules and laws, what have you. An easier read. It's not as elevated, but yeah, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, Stephen Covey. That was a foundational book. And then I will say as well, I had a client, I try to read as much as I can, and I had a client bring the middle passage to me, James Hollis.

Kevin Bellack (1:14:08)
Nice.

Eric Fischer (1:14:21)
107 pages, intellectual read, it's high level ⁓ to a certain extent, but it's on, it broke my brain, boys. I'll tell you what, it is unbelievable. It's really, it's really the middle passage.

Frank Spinelli (1:14:33)
check that out as well.

Kevin Bellack (1:14:34)
James,

did he, do you write the broken mirror? Uh, I wonder if that's a, I feel like, yeah, cause I have that over here and I got, I think it's called the broken mirror. And I think it's him now that you say that I was, thought that name sounded familiar and I remember I opened it up and it just, I read some of it. I have not gotten back into it yet. It was very, I had to chew a chew on it a lot and like digest it and all of that. But I opened it up and I read.

Frank Spinelli (1:14:35)
Okay.

Eric Fischer (1:14:37)
he may have, not sure. This book is, this book is power.

Frank Spinelli (1:15:00)
Thank

Kevin Bellack (1:15:03)
It wasn't even his quote. He put a quote at the beginning on the first page that blew my mind. And I was like, all right, I'm going to go think about this for about a week. And I have to, I'll think I have it right over there. I'm not going to grab it right this second, but yeah. Um, I'll have to check that out. Um, both of those, uh, I would, would, my answer people who know me will probably guess, but, uh, I would say if I had anybody I have,

Frank Spinelli (1:15:14)
Yeah. Stopped him dead.

Eric Fischer (1:15:15)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (1:15:32)
hate recommending things to people just because I don't know like what you like and all that. Zero problem. I know. say the daily stoic is mine. That's the because I feel like it helps with many different things. It's like, you know, giving us different perspective, but also something daily to do and creating a routine and things like that. So one habit you refuse to skip.

Frank Spinelli (1:15:36)
Well, you asked. ⁓ okay.

Eric Fischer (1:16:00)
going to the bathroom. Hey, I, boom, boom, boom, boom. have to have some humor, Kev. got to have some, one habit.

Kevin Bellack (1:16:01)
Sarah?

Frank Spinelli (1:16:08)
Yeah,

I've been obsessed with doing a Duolingo every day. think I come in the thousands. I've been doing it for years every day. It's crazy. Like I'm obsessed about it. So I still can't speak Italian, but you I'm doing it.

Eric Fischer (1:16:14)
⁓

Kevin Bellack (1:16:17)
wow.

Eric Fischer (1:16:19)
Hmm ⁓

Kevin Bellack (1:16:22)
I was gonna ask, yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:16:25)
I'd say playing the piano. Well, know, it's special to me for one primary reason. Well, two, I enjoy it. I'm not, you know, I'm not going to sell out a theater, I tell you that. But when I got out of rehab, you I was broken down and I think we're going to get into this more on another show. you know, I was really lost, boy. I was really, really like lost.

Frank Spinelli (1:16:27)
wow, I learned so much.

Eric Fischer (1:16:51)
I've learned that you only need a little speck of hope to hang on to. And when I got out of rehab, I needed a little something because I was alone. I needed something to do that could push me just a little bit. the piano was something I'd always wanted to kind of do. And so ever since then, these years later, that's one thing that I try every morning to put like 10 minutes on. So ⁓ that's it for me.

Frank Spinelli (1:17:12)
All right.

Kevin Bellack (1:17:13)
Yeah, nice.

Yeah, mine's read one page of the Yeah. Yeah, and I, I have I

Eric Fischer (1:17:20)
Okay, yeah, that's a really good one.

Frank Spinelli (1:17:20)
that's a good one. Yeah, that's a good one.

Kevin Bellack (1:17:26)
I've been tracking it this year since the beginning of the year on the my habit tracker like the actual pages I read so I'll sit there and be like oh I read 42 pages of this on vacation or whatever today and I I mark that down so I can see like Already, I'm like averaging I think 18 pages a day this year and like I've read like 1800 pages and all that and yeah, it's uh So but there's a party of like 40 of those days where I only read one page like so it's like, know, but

Frank Spinelli (1:17:28)
Hahaha

Eric Fischer (1:17:43)
wow.

Frank Spinelli (1:17:43)
Wow.

Kevin Bellack (1:17:55)
showing up and opening up the book. There's been days when I'm like, I'm just going to read this one page and because I don't have time. And then 13 pages later, I'm like, I guess I did have time. So.

Eric Fischer (1:18:04)
Yeah,

you know, I love that. I'm going to, I'm going to take that from you, Kevin. That's a good one. Yeah. That's really good. That's really good because I struggle. love reading, but it's like intermittent, you know, it's like, but one a day, one page a day. Yeah. I love it. Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (1:18:08)
Yeah, Daily Stoic is my go to as far as one.

Yeah. Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (1:18:18)
read before you go to sleep.

Kevin Bellack (1:18:20)
Yeah. And that's, so that, that I'll, share my nugget first for this week. So what did you learn this week? And this could be completely off topic, not sobriety related little nugget. And my thing is, is like last year I went on vacation and I was like, you know what? I always, I was sitting there thinking of what books I'm going to take. And so I'm like, I always take books and I

barely pick them up and I never read them. Right. So last year I was like, all right, pick a book and you will finish that book. You will start it, finish it. And I did. It was, I read the one thing by, I forget their names, Keller. and, and so this year I'm going on vacation again. I'm like, all right, what book am I going to read? And now it's up the ante. How many books can I read even? And cause I found YouTube rabbit hole Ryan holiday and sharing like, if you want books that are

you know, quick reads, can read in one sitting. So that's my nugget. If you want to finish a book, get smaller books. so I read, I read four books and I read, ⁓ about a third of this one, but like, got this book in the mail and it's Seneca on the short, on the shortness of life. It's not even like a, I didn't realize. Yeah, it's a pamphlet. It's like 50 pages. I read this, I read this in the airport.

Eric Fischer (1:19:16)
Yeah. ⁓

Hmm.

Frank Spinelli (1:19:23)
god, that's a...

It's like a pamphlet. ⁓

Kevin Bellack (1:19:36)
And I finished it about an hour into the flight. So I finished it. So I checked the box. like, I checked the box. Got some momentum right out of the gate on that. And then it became kind of a game. It's like, let's see how many of these I can read. yeah, so that was my nugget. If you want to finish a book, just get a small book.

Frank Spinelli (1:19:40)
wow.

Eric Fischer (1:19:51)
Mmm.

Frank Spinelli (1:19:57)
That's a good one.

Kevin Bellack (1:19:58)
Build some momentum.

Eric Fischer (1:20:02)
One thing, you want to go Frank or you want me to go?

Frank Spinelli (1:20:04)
nugget, mean, I'll be quick. I know I, this is something I've come up with myself. It's not like a book or anything, but I have made a deal with myself. Like I have a mom that's 90 and we, know, whatever, when somebody calls me with problems, everything, I find that I would have been the person that would have jumped on that. And now I try very hard, which has become a habit I have to do.

which is I have to be more of the person that when somebody's experiencing pressure, that my job is to relieve the pressure. Like if my mother calls me and tells me, they deducted too much money. I'm like, well, they don't know what they're doing. Instead I'm like, okay, how bad is it? Maybe I'll call. Like I'm always trying to be solution oriented. And it's a nugget that I've been doing for a little bit now because I find that my personality is to react and get upset.

And I find myself saying, okay, think about what are the facts? What can you do to help? How can you talk this person off a ledge instead of pushing them out on the ledge further? So that's my nugget. I don't know if it's a nugget, but it's certainly a habit that I'm trying to do more of in my life.

Eric Fischer (1:21:19)
I learned this week that, and Frank, being a doctor, you'll understand what I'm saying here is all the writing I've done up to this point in time has just been for myself. So call it creative writing or what have you. But now I'm in school getting my masters and I had to write this essay, a clinical essay, and I thought I was gonna jump out of my skin because it was three pages, five pages of like,

Kevin Bellack (1:21:19)
a good one.

Eric Fischer (1:21:46)
clinical type writing, you know, and I learned that I need to improve my writing, improve my thinking this way. But then also I learned once again, I'd say I learned this, but I had forgotten and then came back to it. And it feathers in walking and stretching and breath work and everything else is like when you feel the angst building, stand up and just get out for a couple of minutes, you know, like don't don't sit in it. Like when you feel that

ruminating, even if it's not thought, maybe it's in the body, get up, get moving for five or 10 minutes and then come back and you're, you know, you're a little bit more clear. But Frank, I, I'll tell you, man, this type of writing is like, it's really pushing me or was cause I'm just now I'm just getting started. So it's like, you know, it's exciting, also, you know, anyway, that's what I learned. I learned that, once again, to stand up,

Frank Spinelli (1:22:29)
you

Good I can't wait. Okay

Eric Fischer (1:22:44)
and get moving. And yeah, and at the end of the day, you know, it's going to be all right.

Frank Spinelli (1:22:45)
Take a break.

Kevin Bellack (1:22:49)
Yeah, I always quote a quote a previous podcast guest of like when you're stuck in here in your mind, get into the other 90 % of your body, like get into your body. Emotions are better in motion. But but same thing like if you're yes, if you're struggling at some point. Yeah, unplug. Reboot. ⁓ No, those are great. Thanks for sharing.

Frank Spinelli (1:22:50)
Well, that said...

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:22:59)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

That's it.

Kevin Bellack (1:23:15)
Yeah, thanks Frank. Thanks Eric. Today's episode will be back next week with another one, but I'll thank you all for listening to another episode of the Reframeable podcast brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. If you're enjoying...

Frank Spinelli (1:23:15)
All right.

Eric Fischer (1:23:17)
Thanks for having me.

Kevin Bellack (1:23:42)
this podcast, please like, subscribe and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. I want to thank you again for listening and be sure to come back for another episode and have a great day. And do either of you want to say anything in closing that I sit in here telling myself I should have asked you before I started reading the outro.

Frank Spinelli (1:24:00)
Nope, thanks for having me.

Eric Fischer (1:24:02)
Yeah, yeah, it's been fun. I'm zipped.

Kevin Bellack (1:24:03)
All right.

Frank Spinelli (1:24:05)
Bye.