Recovery, Community, and Coming Home to Yourself

Join Coach Kevin and Frank as they sit down with longtime Reframer Max Miller — four and a half years sober, husband, father, and sales professional  to talk about the Sunday morning he decided to stop drinking and the life that followed.

They dig into why alcohol isn't usually the problem (it's the solution to one), the science behind why recovery isn't a moral failing, and how shame, isolation, and the "I should be able to do this on my own" mindset keep so many people stuck.

You'll also hear how Max navigates work events, business travel, and social situations alcohol-free, why moderation didn't work for him (and what trying it taught him), and the role community, accountability, and leaning into discomfort played in his transformation.

If you've ever wondered whether your best days are behind you, this episode is a reminder — they're not.

The Reframeable podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the #1 app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you.

If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. If you have a topic you'd like us to cover on the podcast, send an email to podcast@reframeapp.com or, if you're on the Reframe app, give it a shake and let us know what you want to hear.

Transcript

Kevin Bellack (00:00)
Welcome everyone to another episode of the Reframeable Podcast, the podcast that brings you people's stories and ideas about how we can work to reframe our relationship, not just with alcohol, but with stress, anxiety, relationships, enjoyment, and so much more. Because changing our relationship with alcohol is about so much more than changing the contents of our glass. This podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol.

It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. My name is Kevin Bellac. I'm a certified professional recovery coach and the head of coaching at the Reframe app.

Frank Spinelli (00:38)
Yeah, and I'm Frank Spinelli. I'm a coach here at Reframe with my background in trauma and health. I'm also a physician working in patient-focused research, and I'm really glad to be here again.

Kevin Bellack (00:51)
Awesome, Frank. Today we're joined by fellow reframer Max Miller. Max is about four and a half years sober. He works in the insurance industry and lives in Indianapolis with his wife of 10 years and their two-year-old daughter. He's passionate about people, their stories and self-improvement, just trying to become the best version of himself every day. Max, welcome.

Max Miller (01:15)
Hey, thanks

having me guys.

Kevin Bellack (01:17)
Yeah. Thanks for joining us on the show and sharing your story with us here today. um, yeah, I'm excited to hear it. How's your, are we at here? I don't want to throw out dates because I don't know when this will be released, but, uh, yeah, we're, we're hit. Yeah. We're in the spring hitting our, I know we were just talking about hitting, definitely hitting our stride here in Cleveland as far as a warm weather coming, but, um, yeah. How things been going?

Frank Spinelli (01:34)
Yeah, we're in the spring. ⁓

Max Miller (01:46)
Yeah, yeah. mean, first, I'd like to just say, you know, any time I get to share my story, it's such an honor because I remember being not sober yet, but knowing that I need to get help and I need to get this in gear because the wheels are coming off and I got to hear stories. And in particular, Kevin, I

heard your story and just thought, man, if he could do it. And I think, don't know how many years you're sober now, but I think you were a couple years sober maybe. Are you?

Kevin Bellack (02:21)
Yeah, I just

Frank Spinelli (02:21)
He just had

Kevin Bellack (02:22)
hit

Frank Spinelli (02:22)
an anniversary.

Kevin Bellack (02:22)
last week. Yeah, just last week was seven years. So.

Max Miller (02:25)
Yeah,

so you were a couple, probably three, almost three years sober and I thought, man, if he can do it, I think I can do it too. And then, you know, that was the thing that really gave me hope. And I guess if there's one thing, if you're listening to this podcast today, if there's one thing, you know, that I hope that you get from this podcast is that

Kevin Bellack (02:27)
Yeah.

Max Miller (02:44)
Your best days are not behind you. There is hope. There is a future. Though you cannot see it and you do not feel it, if you choose to hop on that app every day and do those daily tasks and join the meetings and get in the community and you don't have to call yourself an alcoholic. You can say whatever. You can just say, hey, I'm not drinking. That's fine. It's nobody's business.

if you choose to do that, you can have, you can be happy. And that was, you know, really when I decided not to drink or decided to be sober, I was like, you know, I didn't, I didn't really, I couldn't visualize what a life, not sober really looked like. and the vision that I had was, it was, it was sad and depressing because

Frank Spinelli (03:16)
This

Max Miller (03:34)
You know, I had kind of centered my, I had centered my life around having fun with alcohol and I thought it was fun. I did. But, you you learn about neuroplasticity and you learn about dopamine and how the brain changes and your sleep and as you remove alcohol from your life, the changes that you start to notice in your mental.

state changes and it becomes possible. So that's why I really like your intro where you say it's much more than just changing the contents of your glass. And that couldn't be more true. really has, there's so much more than just choosing not to drink. You're choosing to take your life back and get back in the driver's seat of life. And

Kevin Bellack (04:09)
of your glass, yeah.

Max Miller (04:25)
That's what I would say. If there's one thing you get from this podcast, it is that, hey, you know, your best days are not behind you and there is hope. And so my hope in sharing my story and why I always take these opportunities is that if one person hears this and they decide to make a change, then I've done my job. And that's really important in this.

Kevin Bellack (04:49)
Yeah. Even if it's you know, there's deciding to make a change, but there's even just like, I didn't know that I could go about it that way. Or I didn't know, you know, it's just even putting, planting the seed to give somebody that thought of, well, like, you know, yes, it doesn't have to be this way that I was thinking or that way. Yeah, because we get stuck in that, I think.

just talking with maybe my therapist this week. I can't remember if, no, someone else this past weekend about like the, you we feel, get, you get stuck in the comfort zone. We always call it, but it's not the comfort zone. It's, it can be very uncomfortable, but it's the familiar, right? So it's that familiar zone. And how do we break out of that?

Frank Spinelli (05:29)
Yeah, you know, I agree. There's something that you said that struck me, and by the way, you know, we just said that we've never met, so it's really nice to meet you and for you to share your story and how far you've come. One of the things that you reminded me of, which I had to speak about recently, is this identity of calling yourself an alcoholic. Like, you can do that if you'd like, or you don't have to do that, and I think...

Kevin Bellack (05:30)
BAM.

Frank Spinelli (05:55)
a lot of younger people especially like Gen Zers, they have a problem with that identity. They feel it's like a binary, it's either all or nothing. I'm either an alcoholic or I'm not and a lot of people...

gravitate towards platforms like Reframe only because it's just giving you options and you talked about neuroplasticity, it talks about the science. And I'm curious to know, did you know that going in or did you just say, well, let me start somewhere and then you're like, wow, my God, my mind's blown about all this science that I'm getting with these daily tasks.

Max Miller (06:32)
Yeah, that's a great question. I think I knew that it was doing something to my brain and my body. I mean, I felt like crap. So I knew there was something going on there. you know, learning. So when I went into it, no, I didn't really know that I was going to learn about, you know, dopamine and neuroplasticity and those things. I made I love to learn. Like, ask my wife. I'm always like telling her these random facts that

Frank Spinelli (06:37)
Yeah.

Max Miller (06:56)
don't pertain to anything or make any difference in anybody's life, but I think it's so interesting. And so when I, you know, that fit with my personality really well, you know, being able to, I'm very goal oriented, I'm in sales, so I set, you know, targets and I run after them like, you know, my hair's on fire. I don't have any. That's why it's fun. So.

Frank Spinelli (07:17)
Job succeeded.

Kevin Bellack (07:18)
Yeah, yeah.

Max Miller (07:21)
Yeah, the Reframe app just really fit well with it and it takes the shame. To me, it took the shame away, right? Because I thought, you know, there's all these people that can drink and don't need to moderate and don't need to like have conversations with them about how many drinks they're going to have. You know, I must be broken. And when I started learning that, OK, there's dopamine, there's neuroplasticity and all those things, which we've

hit on those two things, there's more than that, but, you know, and just talk about habits, habit formation. I was like, okay, I'm, you know, I'm working this system the way that it was, I, the way I was designed to work. What if I, what if I got addicted to being sober? What if I got addicted to, you know, working out and trying to be honest and trying to be,

Frank Spinelli (08:05)
Hahaha

Max Miller (08:13)
the person that I want to become? What if I put that much effort? You know, see the thing about someone who drinks every day or someone who's an alcoholic, know, alcohol use disorder, whatever, someone who frequently goes back to alcohol, you know, they have a skill and that is discipline. Because whether they feel good or not, they're going to come back, you're going to come back to that bottle. And you can harness that skill in the good. You know, the same...

The same thing that got you there can get you out of it. And so if you just commit to, hey, this sucks and I've created this mess, but I'm going to get some help and I'm going to get out of this. you know, I tried to moderate. I did. went down that path and just didn't work. Never worked for me. You know, and I know some people, they can moderate and sometimes that's a way to get the ball rolling, right? Harm reduction.

That's great. know, any way that you can. And I remember, I remember being like, I bought these big boxes. Like you go to Costco, you can buy a big old box of Cinnamon Toast Crunch. And I was going through a big box of those a week and I went, I don't care. I don't care if I eat two boxes of these a week. I'm not drinking. And that's a win. Right? Now, I gained some in the midsection for that, but hey, I wasn't drinking. So.

Frank Spinelli (09:19)
You

Right. Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (09:34)
Yeah.

Max Miller (09:35)
Hahaha!

Kevin Bellack (09:36)
I literally pointed at Costco yesterday at the giant box of cinema toast crunch, because that's my wife's favorite. And she's like, no, just keep walking. I don't need that. Yeah. Yeah.

Max Miller (09:45)
Trap.

Frank Spinelli (09:45)
Yeah, that is a trap

and they make it so big. can't resist. You know, that's, that's another thing that you said you're just giving out these pearls. You know, one of the, one of the equalizers for everyone that joins reframe or who is in recovery, whether it's with AA or not is the guilt and the shame. And you get stuck. Like you were saying, you know, you, you're committed to it and you know, you're going to drink, but you're also trapped in this prison.

And one of the distinctions that was really enlightening is that this isn't about a moral failing. This is actually about neuroscience. Your body is craving dopamine and you need to give it to it. And when you get out of that loop, as you were describing, you realize, I can actually become addicted to working out and I can become addicted to being sober. How long did it take you to make that,

that distinction like, I'm not, I, I, is not a shameful thing that I, I've done something terrible and I deserve better. And it's not, it's more than just alcohol. I have a whole life I can live.

Max Miller (10:52)
Well, I guess maybe I should back up a little bit. You know, and one thing I would really, really, really like to point out is, you know, it's... there's... well, you know, my wife and... I might get a little emotional, but my wife...

stuck by my side. You know, and she prayed for me and...

She is really one of my rocks and I'm indebted to her and thankful to her for... Yeah, because the alcohol doesn't just affect the individual. It affects your friends and your family. I am so thankful that my wife did stick with me. And you know, I hadn't...

You I didn't get the DUI. I didn't get a, I wasn't abusive. It wasn't domestic abuse. You know, I was high functioning. You you asked when did, when did the switch turn? I was, I went to school. I have a degree in exercise science. You know, I was a CrossFit coach, functioning alcoholic. So, you know, I was already committed to working out and I worked out, hung over and everything. So,

I guess when I realized that, you know, I looked at it as just take it in steps. know, like, really the number one goal is just not to drink. So do whatever, whatever you can do to not drink. And, you know, I did hot yoga. I did, you know, I run half marathons. I do a ton of walking. I read books. You know, coffee with friends.

Kevin Bellack (12:19)
eight eight

boxes eight boxes of cinnamon toast crunch.

Max Miller (12:23)
a box of Cinnamon Tooth Crunch. mean, yeah, it's really because it's... And the revelation I had when I realized I need to stop drinking was I woke up one morning, it was a Sunday, and it wasn't a good situation. And I just went, I felt what it felt like to be dead. And I...

Kevin Bellack (12:25)
What does it take? ⁓

Max Miller (12:49)
I felt like, man, if I don't make a change, this is going to kill me. And I really believed it with my whole being that if I did not change, I'm going to die. And so I felt like what it felt like to be dead for just a sliver. I went to my wife and I said, hey, I'll never drink again. Sunday, I'm a believer. So we went to church and I went to the front desk and I said, hey,

you guys gotta get me help or I'm gonna die. And they got me, they had a counselor there, so I started seeing a counselor and then they also had a Celebrate Recovery. And so I started attending that weekly and got a sponsor and started getting my, you know, my coins, my tokens and I did a 12 month study, just a men's group, you meet.

you know, once a week for a whole year. And you just, going through material, you know, and learning about yourself. And, you know, I really just learned that, you know, the alcohol was the solution, it wasn't the problem. And until it became a problem, right? It was solving an issue. So I was using it to solve a problem until all of a sudden it was

Kevin Bellack (13:53)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Max Miller (14:00)
the consequences were so negative that I was forced to learn how to cope. And so it's like, I just look at it like I had an issue, right? I had trauma, childhood trauma, we all have it. We all have different traumas. And I was a hurt little boy and I was using alcohol to cope. And so when I realized that the problem

Kevin Bellack (14:17)
Hmm.

Max Miller (14:25)
isn't the problem, it's how I'm choosing to deal with it. And so, what I've had to learn in sobriety is, okay, I have to solve my problems with everything else other than alcohol, drugs or alcohol, right? What are healthy coping mechanisms? And that's what Reframe, you know, Reframe gave me healthy coping mechanisms. Like the daily meetings and the daily tasks and...

Kevin Bellack (14:50)
Yeah, and from there, mean, and by doing the daily meetings and or just any meetings and and doing the tasks like you learn more tools, right? And by doing that, you add to that. Yeah, that you. Yeah, toolbox toolkit, whatever we want to call it, because because like as you just alluded to, alcohol is a tool, right? I mean, it is something that we can use to, you know, which might start.

Frank Spinelli (15:02)
arsenal or yeah, toolbar, yeah, toolkit.

Kevin Bellack (15:17)
Obviously in this way where I would be like, you yeah, I drank socially I drank I binge drank in college and all that but it was I would come home from work stress and I had a beer and I felt better. It's like, okay, my brain was like, okay, do that again, you know, but it's it is that it does start in a lot of those types of ways and then grows into something that's Frankie alluded before about like not being a moral failing and yeah, because it's an addictive drug, you know,

Max Miller (15:30)
Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (15:45)
pushed everywhere. the only one. I don't know if anybody knows who actually said this line, but it's like the only drug you have to justify not taking. Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (15:47)
Yeah.

Yeah,

that's true. Yeah, I think that's one of the key issues. when I was listening to you, Max, and I am really very sorry to hear about your childhood. And I know you said everybody, but you know, it's what matters is your experience, obviously. And one of the things, what you just said, Kevin, what other product is glamorized is this. We have nostalgia for it.

Remember the time we all got wasted in college? like there's a fondness of it, even though we all woke up and it was discussed. A tradition. How do you even say.

Kevin Bellack (16:23)
tradition.

Frank Spinelli (16:27)
Happy New Year without clinking a glass, even amongst us, we're Italian, we can't clink water. It has to be alcohol, otherwise it's bad luck. So there are all of these traditions and myths and nostalgic and superstitions that are attached to it. It's really unbelievable. There aren't more. The only other product that's just probably as addictive and not good for you is sugar, by the way. And what a funny thing that when...

Kevin Bellack (16:40)
Superstitions.

Frank Spinelli (16:53)
folks give up alcohol, the transfer addiction that is most common is sugar. So, you know, it's, it's really interesting. What I really love about your story is that lucky you, you found this group, this men's group who were like unpacking your lies. And I, I have to say the men's group, I don't host it very often because of the time, but I felt like it was so necessary for men to get together. They felt very much more comfortable with each other to share.

And I can't imagine how that was for you. Do you think that was like the turning point for you?

Max Miller (17:28)
Yeah, yeah, because, you know, okay, so I read, I think it's called, I've read lots of books recently. I just started reading. I read one book a month. I love reading. It's easy. If you read 10 pages a day and your book's under 300 pages, you can read a book a month. But they said that,

The feeling lonely, loneliness is as bad as smoking 15 cigarettes a day for your health. Okay, and so what does that mean? That means that we were made for connection. And so when we're disconnected, alcohol isolates you because it's like, do I want to go to my cousin's baseball game or do I want to, that's probably a bad example, but do I want to go out or would I rather stay in and?

have some drinks, you know, be by myself. Like, it pulls you away. It can. It can pull you away. And so, the men's group for me was, you know, like I said, I tried to moderate. I tried to do it on my own and I thought I could do it. Failed miserably because I never got around other people who said, hey, you know what? I have that same problem. And, you know, and once you start realizing that you're not the only one, then you're like, okay, there's something here.

You know, I'm not the only one that's struggling with this. maybe if we, all of us together, stick together, maybe we could all accomplish our goal of not, you know, using and abusing. And so, I remember I was, see, I would have been 28. Yeah, 28 at the time. And, you know, there were men from all different walks of life. And I was the youngest one. Some of them in the group were, you know, in their 60s on their second marriage.

Frank Spinelli (18:51)
Yeah.

Max Miller (19:11)
been in prison and you know they looked at me and they were like I wish when I was 28 years old that I had the epiphany that you have now and I thank God that I figured it out you know or that I had that opportunity to wake up because some people don't some people you know rock bottom is when you stop digging

Kevin Bellack (19:34)
Yeah.

Max Miller (19:36)
you know, and everybody's rock bottom, because that's what people will say, that's gotta be his rock bottom. That first DUI, I thought for sure that I got it.

Frank Spinelli (19:43)
Yeah, I think that's an important distinction. Not everybody needs this DUI accident. mean, the goal is not to have that and you fortunately did not have to go through that to realize that. The other thing you said that when you talked about shame, I keep thinking so much of, you guys read a lot, one of the books that stands out for me most is Brene Brown's, I Thought It Was Me or something. I'm messing up the title, I'll look it up. And her, It's About Shame, which I...

did a lot of research and her saying is the only antidote to shame is connection. It thrives in the isolation and that's what alcohol does. You know a lot of times when we talk about the shame spiral, it begins with the use.

or the misuse or the slip-ups or whatever you call it. And then the second part is the self-incrimination. You're a mess, you always do this. I knew you weren't gonna be able to stick to it. The whole part of that cycle that really matters most is not the slip-up. It's the incrimination. It's the voice that tells you you're worthless. And so the only way to break that cycle is the connectivity. So finding that men's group and realizing

you know, what a gift this was. I mean, I guess for you, what a blessing it was, you know, to really find them at 28. And also for you to have a wife. I mean, that's amazing that you have a partner. We forget about the sphere of influence. We always think whenever I work with people, and I don't know, Kevin, if you're like this, when we talk about our why, I always say the why has to be specific.

but it has to be about you. The first one has to be about you. The second part could be my wife, my kids, whatever. But the first part is why do you want to stop drinking or why do you want to mindfully moderate? So that's really great. So you said how long were you in that group with the men?

Max Miller (21:34)
It was a

whole year of Saturday mornings, a couple hours every Saturday. you know, and had a sponsor, got a sponsor and, you know, that was just somebody that had been sober for a while and was able to sort of, you know, take you under their wing. And, and that was really important because I leaned on him a lot in the beginning, lots of phone calls. You know, when you're trying, like when you're trying to change.

Because you think that your decision to not drink is one decision. Like, I'm not drinking. But if you could zoom out. Like, if I took myself four and a half years backwards and went, this would be your life four and a half years from now, I wouldn't believe you. I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I gave up one thing and I gained everything.

Frank Spinelli (22:16)
Yeah.

Max Miller (22:21)
And with, you know, alcohol says, hey, keep me with you. I'm going to give you, you're going to get, you're to get some happiness. You know, you're going to have fun. And you were, you were talking about those commercials, the commercials, or I don't know if you were talking about the commercials or not, but just the way alcohol is marketed, right? It's like, show, show the, the, and the marketing, show everybody the morning after waking up, after the Superbowl. Put that on the video.

Frank Spinelli (22:29)
Yeah, it's your frenemy. It lies. Yeah.

Sure, yeah.

Kevin Bellack (22:48)
Yeah.

Max Miller (22:50)
You know, waking up, not being able to get up because your alarm's going off, throwing up, feeling like crap, you know. You're operating at such a low vibration, such a low level of existence. you're, you know, what you're doing is, the way I look at it is you're taking the volume on your life and you're just turning it down. And so everything in your life, your potential, like, I love being sober. I'm in the business world.

Kevin Bellack (22:51)
Yeah.

Max Miller (23:17)
you know, with sales and stuff. And I love being sober because I know that I get seven out of seven days of my week to be clear minded and work towards my goals. Where if my competitor is, let's say he's drinking Friday night, Saturday night, well, he's got five out of seven days. I'm going to get two extra days on you. You know, it's just, it's a competitive advantage. And

Frank Spinelli (23:27)
sharp yeah.

Yeah, know,

speaking of that, how did you navigate that? Because sales to me, whenever I'm working with people in sales, I mean, I just came back from a two-day meeting with my company and you know, the alcohol is everywhere and it's free. And I was wondering, what are some of the tips that you learned to navigate being around your colleagues and who are drinking and you're not?

Kevin Bellack (23:46)
Yep.

Max Miller (24:05)
Well, first of all, that's a great question. you know, in the beginning, I really demonized the alcohol. And to me, it is a demon, right? It wants to suck my soul away, right? But that's my experience. And so, you know, when I'm around other people that like to drink or whatever, like, I really don't care about your relationship with alcohol. I don't. But for me, I can't drink. So I'm not going to be ashamed of that.

Frank Spinelli (24:14)
Ha ha.

Max Miller (24:31)
You know, and so I just get a, you know, I have a, favorite drink is a seltzer water with a lime and a splash of cranberry. It's refreshing. It's tasty. And yeah, maybe it looks a little fruity, but I just, I, I'm just not ashamed because who it, who I am without alcohol is such a better version of myself that, you know,

Frank Spinelli (24:40)
Yeah.

Max Miller (24:55)
You don't have to look at people and say, I'm not drinking. Like really, nobody really cares about what you're drinking. Like people don't, like it's you, it's your insecurity. It's my insecurity of what I think other people think about me. But the reality is, is everybody's sitting there wondering what everybody's thinking about them. So if I just don't care, then I don't have to worry about it because most people are worried about themselves. And

Kevin Bellack (25:03)
Yeah.

Yeah, they're worried.

They're looking for OK, when when's the server coming back? I need another drink. That's what I was worried about.

Frank Spinelli (25:21)
Ha ha.

Max Miller (25:22)
Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (25:24)
Yeah.

Max Miller (25:25)
And you know, there's a lot of type A people that, to be honest with you, it might be a little more enjoyable to have a conversation with them after they've had a drink because then they can converse. You know, I'm naturally extroverted and, you know, what I won't do is I won't stay out late. So once somebody starts repeating themselves or slurring their words or they get a little wobbly, see ya, I'm going back to my hotel, I'll get a Ben and Jerry's.

And, you know, like, seriously, I do. I get Ben and Jerry's. Like when I'm traveling, it's Ben and Jerry's and I'll get Longhorn Steakhouse. Like I make it fun. You know, I do.

Frank Spinelli (25:53)
you

Yeah,

that's so funny because you bring up such a good point. You know, I was at this meeting, I'm going to try not to say anybody, but you know, somebody big came over to the table where we were sitting and you could just tell just from the gesticulations. Okay, this guy's, this guy's in it. And you know where I go in my head? I go in my head.

I don't want him to be embarrassed tomorrow. So I make up some excuse after like a little bit of conversation. I'm like, Oh, I got to use the restroom. And I get out of there. I find like, I, I'm like you, once you start repeating yourself, or once I hear the slurring, I'm like, you know what? This would be a good time for me to, to check out. And so I'm going to go to the bathroom or I'm going to, you know, going to go somewhere else. That's a good tip.

Max Miller (26:44)
Yeah.

Well, and it's just understanding like, you know, my boundaries are for me. They're going to keep me safe, you know, and the people that love you and care about you are going to respect your boundaries. And the people that don't love you and don't care about you won't respect your boundaries. you know, it's my job to make sure that I'm safe, number one. And so I got to put, you know, my wife and I, early sobriety, you know, my wife was such a team, is such a team player, you know, we came up with a game plan.

when we would go to events and stuff. you know, we were fortunate that we didn't really get put in that position all too often. But in early sobriety, was a head case. know, I couldn't go out. I couldn't go to restaurants. I couldn't be around it. You know, I really, really struggled. And I remember my wife being like, is this what it's going to be like? Like, is this how you're going to be? And I'm like, no, I promise. like, I'm just, my brain is recalibrating.

Kevin Bellack (27:31)
Yeah.

Max Miller (27:37)
I promised it would get better and sure enough it did but we had a plan, you know, and her and I came up with and she was with me in that and, you know, she was never really a drinker. I mean, she was always like a one glass, one drink kind of woman anyways. So when I stopped, she was like, well, I might as well just not drink either because I sleep better and feel better. And so neither of us drank and we love it.

Kevin Bellack (27:37)
Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (27:37)
It's

true.

Kevin Bellack (28:06)
I think that's such a important thing to keep in mind there is like, I mean, I thought it a lot of people do think that it's like, is this how it's going to be forever? And what your wife said there? It's like, shit, like, well, this this looks like it's gonna suck. Like, and that's what we think. But, you know, it's just that it goes back to that familiar thing. We just don't know necessarily what it's going to look like or when.

Frank Spinelli (28:22)
Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (28:32)
We might be ready, but yeah making sure that you're doing what you need to take care of yourself is important And knowing that it's not always going to be that way like you you planning and doing that you know Okay, let's talk. Let's talk through the plan for tonight. Let's go through that. We have to do this every time No, because you get better as with anything you get better at doing that and then you just look at it and be like You know the next time it's like you can use that information

for that and so on and just becomes a lot easier. But you have to learn like how long were you drinking? I was drinking like 20 plus years. It was gonna take a little bit of time to adjust the way I did things, right? So giving ourselves that space, so important. Yeah, and.

Frank Spinelli (29:15)
I think,

you know, the other part, don't you think like you brought up something else when you go out and you're not drinking? People don't care. They really don't. And we think they do because they're like, he must have a problem. That's why that's what we think is the inner voice in our heads. But it's so clear that, you know,

What, one of the things I talked about as well is like, you just have to find what is the joy of the missing out. Like you said, Joe, instead of the FOMO and yeah, it does take time. And I think once you do put in the time to do the work, and I know we say all that, but that it's true. Once you do employ the habits and use the tools, it becomes automatic. You don't have to think about it. Do you have to always like have a game plan with your wife before you go out? Probably not anymore. Right.

You're probably like, now we know what it is. It is what it is. think one, I honestly think sometimes when I think the bigger struggle for a lot of clients is learning how to mindfully moderate. That takes a lot of effort. Like you're always thinking tonight I'm going to be drinking and what does that look like and how many times, when do I stop and do I get somebody to be accountable for them? When you're not drinking, it's just, you know, it's just not even on the menu. So I don't have to worry about that.

So was that hard for you with trying to mindfully moderate in the beginning?

Max Miller (30:30)
Absolutely.

Kevin Bellack (30:31)
Definitely.

Max Miller (30:34)
my gosh, it was such a failure, dude. It so

bad. So bad. No, it never. You know, and I think about it now, you know, had a friend who was like, he's like, what if I could just be like your like part, like I'll hold you accountable, you know, like I just make, and I'm like, well, that's not your job, dude. And people, people that don't have a problem don't have to ask themselves how many drinks they're going to have.

Frank Spinelli (30:52)
Yeah.

Max Miller (30:58)
I mean, that's, you know, in so far, maybe not, I don't know.

Kevin Bellack (31:01)
Yeah. No,

no, I agree. I just think it like it's like, yeah, if you if you don't have if you feel like like you don't have a problem, you have no problem with how alcohol shows up in your life. Yeah, you're not sitting there being like, oh, I'm going to have two tonight and the only two and all that you probably default to that.

Frank Spinelli (31:04)
No, I mean...

Max Miller (31:05)
What? Like my wife?

Frank Spinelli (31:15)
counting.

Max Miller (31:19)
Yeah.

Yeah. No, it's way easier. and I remember, like, there was a night where my wife's like, hey, you get two drinks. And I was like a sad puppy dog because I'm like, I only get two drinks. That's just me. I'm just just getting started, you know? And and so I would rather not have anything. You know, what's the saying? It's one's too many and ten's not enough.

Kevin Bellack (31:44)
Yeah. Yep.

Frank Spinelli (31:44)
Yeah. Yeah.

Max Miller (31:46)
So again, like I said earlier,

Frank Spinelli (31:49)
that

takes wisdom, you know what I mean? When you say, what did you say? I fail, I bonk, you actually didn't. You may have felt like that, but you learned something. You really did. It's data. It's more data. you, yeah, you learn something about yourself that you know, I'm just not that person. I'm not that guy. So, you know, and it reinforces your choice for not drinking now. Yeah, that's really good.

Max Miller (31:56)
⁓ yeah. Correct. Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (31:57)
Yeah,

always feedback.

Max Miller (32:01)
So.

Absolutely.

Frank Spinelli (32:14)
I do find a lot of clients come to you that want to mindfully moderate at the start, Kevin, or is it a fair share of like abstinence where you are? Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (32:21)
I think everybody well, I mean, I guess it depends on like where they are in their

in their quote unquote journey, right? Because I feel like unless something like specific happens to you or somebody tells you or maybe it's health or maybe it's law legal where there is someone who's just like you can't drink anymore. Everybody starts off by trying to cut back, right? I mean, period. think that's a 99.999 %

Frank Spinelli (32:30)
I'm

Right.

Max Miller (32:47)
Absolutely.

Kevin Bellack (32:49)
you know, people, because it is something that's usually been in our lives for years. And, and we've have, we have had good times with, you know, and drinking and all of that. And so, yeah, why would I totally remove that? And it makes sense, right? I'm going to try and I'm going to try it this way. First, I just need to cut it back. She dial it back a bit. Yeah. ⁓

Frank Spinelli (32:59)
Yeah.

Max Miller (33:11)
Just dial it in, bro. Get

Frank Spinelli (33:12)
Yeah.

Max Miller (33:13)
it under control.

Kevin Bellack (33:13)
Like I told

my therapist, I've said this before here, but it's like I don't have an off switch, so I'm hoping that you can install a dimmer switch because I just need I just need to tone it down a bit. And that was the thing. I took a break and I was always like, can I when can I drink next, though? When can I drink next? When am I going to be fixed? And that's that's an important distinction. Yeah, that's an important distinction I do make now. More recently is like, OK, even if you take a break with alcohol, I don't care how long it is.

Frank Spinelli (33:20)
Yeah. ⁓

Right, right, right, right, right. Yeah, when am I gonna be fixed?

Max Miller (33:30)
Right.

Kevin Bellack (33:43)
If you take a break and you don't drink like me, like seven years, okay? And if I go to say, okay, I'm gonna moderate now, that seven years gave me tools for life, right? Things that I can get through without a drink and all that. But once I reintroduce alcohol, it's a different ball game. Now, I didn't practice moderating.

in that time I wasn't drinking, right? So I think we always think that, because I took a break, even if it's, you know, just like doing a dry January, doing a month, doing a week, it doesn't matter how long. It's like that doesn't, that helps me, but that doesn't help me necessarily once I start.

Frank Spinelli (34:08)
I see. Yeah, you.

Right, right. Well, it didn't go back and cure you. You know what I mean?

Kevin Bellack (34:23)
It's not the same, at least.

Yeah, not that

it's like even has to be something that's cured because then that goes back to do I have a disease or do I have a problem or whatever? But it's like.

Frank Spinelli (34:33)
No, but I do think people

feel that after a month after a year, like I'm good now now I can do it and then when you have one you're like, wait a minute, but you know, you know, it is got to be fair balance to say some people do and I have had successful clients that stopped drinking, they just weren't happy and I think that's the key. It's not you were saying I think earlier like

Max Miller (34:39)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (34:50)
yeah.

Frank Spinelli (35:01)
It was the solution. They realized that they were unhappy. They were just unhappy drinking. They woke up, they didn't feel good. You mentioned the Super Bowl commercial. They don't show you the people waking up saying, I hit my wife or whatever. Like the disasters that happened that potentially could happen. But I have had people that had an extended period where they were like, okay, how do we do this? And I love that because then it's like science. It's like, okay, let's do an experiment.

Max Miller (35:08)
Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (35:27)
It's gotta be parameters. How many, how many days? Put up the guardrails. And again, it goes back to what you saying, Max. It's work. It's not easy. don't, yeah, you're training yourself.

Max Miller (35:35)
It's an exercise. If you're doing an exercise, would you rather do a

Kevin Bellack (35:37)
Yeah.

Max Miller (35:40)
really hard workout or just not workout and get way better results?

Frank Spinelli (35:44)
Yeah, right, right,

right, right. Yeah, so that's why, but, you're right, it's not everybody that can do it. I mean, I would say my success rate is not very high, but there are people, and I do support them because I also think it's evidence, again. You know, they might do it for a month and be like, you know what, I slipped right back to where I was, not good. And I'm like, okay, we learned something. You know, you didn't.

Max Miller (35:58)
Correct, yes.

Kevin Bellack (36:06)
Yeah. Yeah.

Max Miller (36:09)
Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (36:10)
Nothing

bad happened, but you learn something about yourself, which I think is important. And, you know, it's funny where I you know, where I noticed this it's right around the 90 day mark. When people have not been drinking for about 90 days, I feel like the first 30 is the recovery phase. The second 30 is more along. You're seeing the neuroplasticity. Maybe you had that pink cloud or whatever that when you get to 90 or you forget, I call it, it's been called,

Max Miller (36:19)
Mmm.

Frank Spinelli (36:37)
Is it radical nostalgia where you're like, remember when we drank and you're like, maybe I can, maybe I can do it. You know, and then you're like, well, you know, it's whatever it's a, it's some holiday. It's plant a tree day. Let's have a drink. And then, then they're like, wow, it didn't work out. But

Max Miller (36:51)
It's like 90

days ago, this intruder came in, lit your house on fire and ran away and then you got a good look at him. And then 90 days go away and you're like, oh, that same intruder's here. Let me open the front door. We don't recognize. We don't recognize.

Frank Spinelli (37:03)
Because

Kevin Bellack (37:06)
Yeah.

And over the course of that 90 days, sorry for the insurance comment here, but I got a brand new house built. Not that that's even possible in 90 days, but I got a brand new house built with insurance money and everything's new. And it's like, it's all because of that guy. So I feel good now. So maybe it's different. I'll let them in this time.

Frank Spinelli (37:10)
Yeah.

We get it, it's a metaphor.

Max Miller (37:22)
it

Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (37:28)
Yeah.

Max Miller (37:32)
Well,

and yeah, I think your guys's point on the moderating, I'm not anti-moderating at all. Yeah, I think that, you know, whatever you can do to reduce alcohol, if you notice that it's an issue, do that. Get started somewhere. And I guess for me, I did try to moderate. I did. Didn't work.

Frank Spinelli (37:40)
Yeah, no, I didn't think you'd say that, yeah.

But

you know what else, and I think this is part of it, is that you can join AA, you can join Reframe, you can do whatever you're gonna do. If it was, if you were drinking to mask something, which is what most people do, they're trying to suppress or just put a towel over an issue you don't wanna deal with, when you do become,

sober after a while, those problems resurface. And if you don't meet them head on, like what you were doing, you were going to a men's meeting, you were under covering past issues, you were dealing with them head on. If you don't do that, you're more likely to go back and drink because that was the reason you were, you're like, my God, I'm not gonna remember this now. I don't wanna deal with that. So let me call that guy who burned my house down and see if he can do it again.

Max Miller (38:28)
Correct.

Yeah. Well,

and that's where, okay, you know, I have a couple thoughts for people that trying to get sober. I've heard this before because I've had some friends of friends who knew I was sober and they had a connection and they've reached out, you know, and said, hey, Max, could you talk to this person? And that's happened a couple of times. And one of the common themes, and this would be for me, too, this is what I wanted to do was

It was to act like, you know, the house that I caught on fire, so my life, that was on fire. I wanted to all of sudden make a decision to get sober and then act like that house that I caught on fire, my life behind me, wasn't there. And go, oh, you know, I'm not gonna focus on that. I'm just gonna focus on, want, everything's gonna be great. I'm gonna be so happy. And it's like, no, no. That is, to me, that is so wrong.

Why don't I had to sit in when I sat in the reality of the decisions I had made in the life that I had created, right? It wasn't the life I wanted. When I sat in the reality of what, you know, being a liar, not living up to my full potential, when I sat in that reality,

and sat with those uncomfortable feelings, that's where the transformation started. And I think that we don't want to be uncomfortable.

And I started adopting uncomfortable practices. I started doing fasting and cold plunges and vigorous exercise. And I really pushed into, OK, I want to become this new person. I'm going to let suffering in. I'm going to let it all in. I'm going to face this thing head on. And I'm going to admit where I fell short and I'm going to own it. You know, and I read a book, like I said, I read books, a book I would recommend to anybody.

is by Jack Canfield. He wrote a book called Chicken Soup for the Soul. That's the author, but this book is called The Success Principles and he has... There's 66 principles in there, but there's one principle that if you don't apply it, none of the other principles work. So it's the Keystone Principle and it is that we must become 100 % accountable and responsible for every decision, everything that's happened.

you know, that's happened in our lives. And so when I decided, okay, I'm going to be accountable. I'm going to be responsible for not only what has happened to me, but what my future is going to look like. And that is where the transformation came. It wasn't just deciding, you know, not to drink was the first step, but it was, you know, I'm going to be accountable here. And so, you know,

going to reframe, men's group, counseling. I mean, had two counselors, friends, family members, sponsors. Like you need do whatever it takes. Create an army. Create a wall of people that can surround you and help you. And there's no shame in that because we all, you know, we want what's best for the people that we love. And there's I feel like there's a stigma in the older generation for

getting help.

Frank Spinelli (41:59)
Well, yeah, of course, think well,

Kevin Bellack (42:01)
Yes. Yes.

Frank Spinelli (42:03)
you know admitting you have mental health issues admitting you have Addiction issues is very stigmatizing for many people and for many reasons and it transcends not only age but cultures There are certain cultures where you don't admit weakness particularly among

men. And I think what you were saying, if I can rephrase it, is almost like you were leaning into the shame. You weren't avoiding it. You were like, all right, I'm going to do these plunges. I'm going to feel all the feelings. And when you describing it, I was like, that's called accountability. And then you were like, that's what it is. And I was like, yeah, that really is what it is. You know, it's so funny. You know, it goes back over and over and over again.

Max Miller (42:35)
Thank

Frank Spinelli (42:44)
You, people come to Reframe and they're wrecked. You know, they're very, they're displaced, they feel detached, they feel distraught, and it's really sad. And then when you get past a certain hump, which is not very far into the future, you realize, the alcohol's not the problem at all.

It was never the problem. was the vehicle I used to help me get where I wanted to be. And it always comes down to...

I'm misaligned with the values I hold dear in myself. And you were saying I've turned into a liar. You know, I'm not being accountable to my wife. All the things you hold dear. And then once you realize that shift, you know, I get it. You know, it's almost like you find the last piece of the puzzle. You're like, I get it now. It fits. I'm really just better off not drinking because I'm more aligned with my core values, which are more aligned with.

what I hold dear, which is my health, it sounds like, and it sounds like your wife, and now you got a baby. So that's really great. It really is. It takes a while, but like you said, you don't know the life you could have unless you start somewhere. Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (43:57)
Yeah.

What would you say? You know, talking about all like that army of support around you that group. So what would you say to somebody who you're telling this to and who's like,

I don't I can do I can do it myself. I can figure it out. I know my issues. I can do it myself. I don't like to ask for help or things like that. What's the argument against? I'll I'll. Lead it and say stubbornness. ⁓ Well, no, it's not like arguing, but like, would what would you come back to them? Yeah, what's the counter as to why they should do that? Perhaps what's the benefit?

Max Miller (44:23)
I wouldn't argue with somebody like that because they're not ready.

Frank Spinelli (44:25)
Yeah.

What's the counter, yeah.

Max Miller (44:35)
You're saying somebody is saying I can do it myself.

Kevin Bellack (44:38)
We they heard

they just heard you share like all the all the people and that sounds like a lot of work and I don't like to ask for help. I like to do it myself. Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (44:41)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Max Miller (44:49)
Yeah, normally I'm... Yeah, there you go.

Frank Spinelli (44:50)
You know, you know what mine is? I'll go for it before you. So you could think

this happens, in not often, but there will be that first encounter and you know, I'm talking about Kevin where people come in and they think you're going to wave a wand and it's all going to be great. And you say, this is what we need to do. This is what we need to do. they go, you know what? I don't know if this is for me. I typically can do everything on my own. And I go, okay, great. Why don't we agree to let's see how you do in a week.

And if you're where you're at and you're happy, you're feeling like you're going in the right direction, then go for it. But I'm still here if you need me, because you're right, Max, and I'll let you, shut up. But you can't argue, because they're already in their mind thinking, the door is shut, I'm not doing this. And you just say, okay, call me in a week and tell me if you're you're at, because all you need is another week and you'll see. But I don't say that part.

Max Miller (45:27)
No, no.

Kevin Bellack (45:28)
No, yeah.

Max Miller (45:42)
No, mean, you

guys are the coaches, so you guys know way more than me. But I mean, I would say, yeah, call me in a month, call me in a week. I've always said that.

I don't want to get into my family life too much, but I don't have a lot of contact with my family. And I've always said that, you know, I'm not going to go beat on their door and explain, you know, hey, this is what your life could look like. But if they ever ask me, if anybody ever asked me, hey, how do I, you know, how do I, how do I get a life that I love?

And you know, life isn't, I don't always love my life. Life is hard, you know. It's just a lot harder when you're a drunk. But anybody, know, because if somebody comes to me and asks me, it tells me that, they really want help. And somebody that's not asking you how to get help, you know, and I know some people just maybe they want help, but they don't know how to say it. So you could reach out and offer that help. I don't think there's anything wrong with offering that help, but

Frank Spinelli (46:25)
drunk.

Max Miller (46:47)
And you know, maybe this is more towards family. feel like the more you know somebody, the less likely they are to open up to you. That's probably another topic for another podcast. ⁓

Kevin Bellack (46:55)
Yeah, maybe.

Frank Spinelli (47:01)
But it is

tricky, I mean it is tricky. Also there's the other, the tricky part is first of all somebody has to ask for help, right? You have to want help. The second part that I find is very tricky is when you get somebody and they're not rock bottom, but they're low.

They're more apt to listening and then all of a sudden, you know, something magical happens. They don't drink for a few days and they think, I got this. And then they fall by the wayside and you, it breaks my heart actually, because I feel like they just slipped back into the old pattern and it's very easy to do that. And I think that's the same thing with people. When you try to give help or when somebody, I don't know if this happened to you where they were like, could you talk to my husband or could you talk to my friend? And you're like, I

could, I don't really know what good it's going to do other than I'm here if they want to talk, but they should probably make the first move because it can be seen as aggressive.

Max Miller (47:56)
Yeah.

I had a husband reach out to me and they had children and I just said, hey, like, your wife's job is to get sober. Your job is to make sure your kids are safe. And she ended up, we ended up connecting and it ended up, think, I don't know, she's probably a couple of years sober now, but I think that

you know, for them, it was really interesting because like the husband kind of knew that it was an issue, but they didn't really know. And I was like, hey, like, I want you to know that this is not good. And if the alcohol stays in the house, it's probably not going to go well because I, know, there had been lots of issues. So,

Kevin Bellack (48:42)
And this is already at the point where like she was working on this and you kind of brought that up as far as like, okay, maybe maybe you don't have that in the house.

Max Miller (48:50)
Well, she...

Yeah, yeah, I don't think she had... I think she had tried to stay away from it, like maybe moderate on her own and it just... it didn't work. And then, you know, there were issues that kept happening and so... But now she's doing really well now. I mean, I see her Facebook posts and it's really cool to see how far she's come.

Frank Spinelli (49:13)
How much do you think, you you said your background is in health as well, how much do you think health plays into most people's reason to stop or to moderate?

Max Miller (49:27)
Yeah, that's a great question. I think more now.

Frank Spinelli (49:29)
I'm three for

three today with the questions. Sorry, man.

Max Miller (49:32)
Yeah. Well, I would say, you

know, in today's day and age with the science and everything that's coming out, you know, you look at the national heart, someone, the heart, I'm slipping on the words. They used to say like one was it one glass of wine for one or two. And now it's zero, I believe. Zero. World Health Organization. Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (49:49)
Yeah, one or two. Yeah. Zero, yeah, the World Health Organization. Yeah, because they went

back and they looked at that S-curve and they were like, no, no, no, no. Actually, that doesn't make any sense. but you know, isn't that funny? But really, people bought into that and listen.

Max Miller (50:02)
And it says sponsored by Budweiser. More drinks! my gosh! Alright.

you

Frank Spinelli (50:14)
Listen, we all know that, I've talked about this before with Kevin. just came back from Germany. On average, people in Germany drink a liter and a half of beer a day. My mother has a glass of wine, but it's like this big with dinner. I think it was falling into this idea that people were living longer and they happen to be drinkers. had nothing to do with the science that the fact that it causes problems with your heart, it causes problems with your liver. It's carcinogenic.

So then the World Health Organization finally came around and said, actually it's zero. So you're right.

Max Miller (50:49)
Yeah,

Kevin Bellack (50:49)
Yeah.

Max Miller (50:49)
and I would say that, you know, I think there's lots of people I know that are like, I just don't drink anymore because I sleep better and I feel better. And as I think a lot of people recognize that, you know, they didn't have a problem with it, but the one or two drinks they would have, you know, a couple of times a week, they would notice, hey, I'm not sleeping well. I mean, you talk about just wrecking your REM sleep, you know, it's

Frank Spinelli (51:15)
Not only that, it's exponentially worse as you get older. You you're drinking at 65 versus 50 versus 40, you know, one glass of wine, forget about hard liquor. mean, the impact it, no, I mean, the impact it has on people, and not to mention, you know, there's a new fad that's coming out and I was asked to comment on it. It's called buzz balls. There are these.

Max Miller (51:28)
Yeah

Frank Spinelli (51:40)
You know, round, spherical, colorful, fruity drinks that have 15 % alcohol. And the Gen Zers who don't really drink, they're probably the most sober conscious, although they do smoke a lot of marijuana in replacement of the alcohol. They're, you know, they're doing it to down it. I mean, this isn't something you sip. And so they were asking, what is the, the impact of that? And I'm like, it's a disaster. You don't want to be drinking 15 % alcohol in one shot.

You know, and imagine the impact and what is really problematic for this type of intentional intensive drinking is that it's the fruity part. You don't realize how, you know, this is an impact. This is a lot of alcohol, but you're like, this tastes really good. It tastes like, you know, it reminds me of like when the vapes were fruit flavored and kids were like, I love this.

Kevin Bellack (52:31)
Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (52:34)
I'm like, yeah, it's masking all the dangers because it... Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (52:36)
Yeah. There's no barrier for entry. Like, you know, smoking a cigarette or drinking

rot gut, whatever alcohol, or I was just talking to somebody about my mad dog, uh, college phase. Um, yeah, there's no like barrier, even if it's like a white cloth versus the buzz ball. It's like, it's still, or whatever drinks like that. I mean, it called specifics, but it's like,

Frank Spinelli (52:44)
drinking straight vodka, yeah.

Max Miller (52:50)
I've heard about this.

Frank Spinelli (52:51)
He he.

Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (53:06)
Yeah, like it's just easy now. It's easier.

Frank Spinelli (53:08)
And not only

that, talk about nutrition. You're now adding the two most addictive things, sugar and alcohol into one lovely beverage. I mean, you know, it is, but this is becoming something of a problem. I think there's even a song called Buzz Balls, but I think this is what happens when, of course, this is what happens when you have generational drinking or generational.

Kevin Bellack (53:25)
Naturally.

Frank Spinelli (53:32)
celebrating, like you would say, or traditions. Eventually, certainly my nephews probably don't drink like I did. my, then the nephews that come after them are probably not going to. And so what happens to marketing ramps up. So they go to TikTok where there are, they make them fun and fruity and like, let's just, just have one, but you got to have it all at once. You know, so the marketing is catching up to.

even the habits and still even after the COVID pandemic where people weren't congregating as much, we talked about this last time, the one essential, what was it? Alcohol. So, you know, I think, yeah, it's really problematic. even sometimes we even when there's undisputed facts about what alcohol is doing to you, people overlook it or they doubt it.

Max Miller (54:08)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, ⁓

I mean, I was, yeah, in the health and fitness industry. I have a degree in exercise science, so I knew, but I didn't care because...

Frank Spinelli (54:32)
Yeah, I know.

Kevin Bellack (54:33)
I can always find data that supports what I want to do.

Max Miller (54:34)
⁓

Yeah, exactly.

Frank Spinelli (54:36)
But you were

also showing up. See, I think that's where people make the distinction. I got wrecked last night, but I still made it to work. I still put in a full eight hours and I did a good job. Now I deserve a drink. Yeah, I could do it.

Max Miller (54:44)
Right.

Kevin Bellack (54:48)
Which probably made Because it just reinforced the fact that, I could do that, even though it

Max Miller (54:49)
Well, yeah.

Kevin Bellack (54:55)
was wrecking my insides.

Max Miller (54:56)
Well, we all come up with our own justification system, right? So, know, hey, if I'm not, if I'm making all my meetings, I'm making all my phone calls, you know, I'm doing my workouts, you know, I'm not beating anybody or directing my car. Hey, I don't have a problem. If I had a problem, if I had a problem, someone will get hurt. And all the...

Kevin Bellack (55:00)
Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (55:00)
Yeah, exactly.

Mm-hmm.

Or if I had a problem,

my boss would have said something to me, so therefore I'm fine. Yeah, it's like, yeah, you put it on somebody else.

Kevin Bellack (55:21)
Yeah.

Max Miller (55:24)
And so why?

Kevin Bellack (55:25)
I drink my alcohol

out of a glass, not a brown paper bag. It's fine.

Max Miller (55:28)
Yeah, yeah.

Frank Spinelli (55:28)
Hahaha

⁓

Max Miller (55:29)
Well, and that's like, I remember telling my, I talked to conversation to my grandmother recently, you know, and she knew, she knows, I told her, you know, hey, I'm sober. And, you know, she was like, you weren't, you really weren't, you weren't that bad. Like you weren't, it wasn't that bad. And I'm like, no, grandma, you just, well, you, you're, your version of an alcoholic is the homeless dude underneath the, the interstate with the brown paper bag.

You know, saying,

Frank Spinelli (55:56)
Yeah, well she

also loves you though because she doesn't want to think she may have done something to make it go wrong for you. It's just a loving way of saying you aren't so bad.

Max Miller (56:03)
And that's ⁓ a really good point, Frank. Yeah, that's a

Kevin Bellack (56:04)
to make you feel better, ⁓

Max Miller (56:07)
good point.

Frank Spinelli (56:07)
Yeah, it's hard for parents, you know, some when I went to my niece's wedding I had intentions of having a glass of champagne I thought I'm gonna give myself a glass of champagne then we went and I was like, know what? I'm having such a good time Why ruin this why make it all of a sudden mental gymnastics and I was I was purposely drinking non-alcoholic beer so it looked like I was drinking because

You know, in my mind, I'm thinking everybody's staring at me and my mother goes, have a drink. It's okay. And I'm like, God, my poor mother, she doesn't want to think about maybe her son shouldn't be drinking at all. But I just said, no, it's okay. I'm having a great time. Don't worry. mothers and mothers and grandmothers. You gotta love them. Well, I know we have to stop at five. You want to do our nuggets? Kevin?

Max Miller (56:42)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Kevin Bellack (56:55)
Yeah, was there anything else that

you wanted to that you feel like you needed to not needed to but like wanted to touch on or share?

Frank Spinelli (56:56)
Yeah, anything else?

Yeah, what else you'd like to share for anybody

out there? Yeah.

Max Miller (57:05)
I thought I felt like I had one more thing, I might be slipping my mind. You know, I just I think that this is reframe such a good, such a helpful tool, you know, and this this platform saves lives. It does, you know, and you guys coaches, you know, you guys are the heroes taking your time to.

invest in people like me, you know, who thought my best days were behind me and they're not. And guys, I have such a, you know, such a successful business that I'm running. A wonderful wife, a child who I get to show up for every single day. And gosh, and it started with, it really did. I downloaded, think, you you guys were running,

like a beginning of the year special. I think that's when I downloaded it. It was like December 31st or January 1st. And I went, I'm in, I'm going to be a reframer. And I got enough points to get this shirt and

Frank Spinelli (58:10)
Wow.

Kevin Bellack (58:10)
Yeah.

Max Miller (58:11)
And that every

time I put on the shirt, have, you know, it's like a piece of home, you know, like I came home to myself through reframe. so, yeah, if you're if you're somebody that wants to cut back, wants to quit drinking, just, you know, I would just say, what's the worst that can happen? You find out that, you know, you didn't like it. I don't know. I mean, maybe you get your life back. I mean, I think that's those are.

Kevin Bellack (58:36)
Yeah.

Max Miller (58:36)
could go one way or the other, know, give it a shot, you know, so.

Kevin Bellack (58:40)
Give it a shot and try. mean, and just a shout out to you for like, OK, no waking up that Sunday morning and being like, not doing this and then immediately going and saying, I need help. What meetings do you have? You know, and it's not just one thing. Like there's no magic.

Frank Spinelli (58:40)
Yeah.

Right, right.

Kevin Bellack (59:03)
I'll say there's no magic pill, but it's not about pills either. It's about, you know, just, could be, it could be a pill, but yeah, there's no, there's no one thing that, just magically works. Right. And it's like, cause we said, it's like, there's different reasons why I reach for a drink here and here and here and here and here. So there's going to be different things I need to help me with that.

Frank Spinelli (59:07)
magic wand.

Max Miller (59:11)
Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (59:24)
Sure. And just so, you know, I want to just say, you know, thank you and very well said, but I want to also say, and I'll speak for Kevin, the relationship with coaches and the reframers is bi-directional. I get just as much out of every meeting, every engagement. really just really feeds my soul. So I'm glad that you get a lot out of it, but we get just as much in return.

Kevin Bellack (59:25)
video.

Yeah, absolutely. mean, I don't know where I would be right now as far with respect to alcohol if it wasn't for reframing a different way. But yeah. Yeah. Well, all right. Well, thanks, Max. What were some of the things I was looking up here on the side? You were close, Frank. I thought it was just me.

Frank Spinelli (59:54)
hahahahah

Right.

yeah.

I thought it was just me, that's the book, but it isn't. So it's a long title.

Kevin Bellack (1:00:14)
But it isn't. Yeah, making the journey.

Making the journey from what will people think to I am enough. That's Brené Brown's book he mentioned. I was looking up something, Max, you said something about the demon and the like, I remember I couldn't find it really quickly in a search, but like the whole etymology of like alcohol or something is like something about a spirit there and stuff. So.

Max Miller (1:00:24)
Mmm.

Frank Spinelli (1:00:25)
Right.

Ha ha ha ha.

Kevin Bellack (1:00:42)
I wasn't able to get that, but then I was going to mention, you talked about Jack Canfield's book and I read the 30 day sobriety solution, how to cut back or quit drinking in the privacy of your own home early on. And that was, I thought a helpful book because it had a lot of new tools that I learned from there. And there's one other thing I was looking up. I was looking up generations and when they started and ended and all that. Cause at one point, Frank, was going to say, I'm like,

Frank Spinelli (1:00:48)
yeah.

Max Miller (1:00:56)
and

Kevin Bellack (1:01:12)
I'm like, cause you said like Gen Z doesn't like the word alcoholic or that I was going to be like, Gen X doesn't like it either. ⁓

Frank Spinelli (1:01:16)
Mm-hmm. Yeah,

I'm sure.

Max Miller (1:01:20)
Yeah, I don't think anybody wants that label and that's fine. Like, I tell people just say you don't drink. It's nobody's business.

Kevin Bellack (1:01:20)
⁓

Yeah. If the label works,

Frank Spinelli (1:01:28)
please, yeah, we

can get into a whole, yeah, some people fall into that trap of the identity. They need to be an alcoholic. But, you know, if it gets you through the night.

Kevin Bellack (1:01:29)
go for it.

Yeah. Yeah. What's the unknown? It's like, if if that's

part of my identity now, like, who am I without this? How do I how do I deal with stress if I don't if I'm not drinking? It's just like that unknown. So all right. No.

Frank Spinelli (1:01:44)
Right, right, right.

Max Miller (1:01:51)
Gosh, this was

so much fun.

Frank Spinelli (1:01:53)
I'm glad. Thank you so much for sharing your story. It's going to be very helpful, especially for a lot of people. So appreciate that.

Kevin Bellack (1:01:54)
So yeah.

And that leads us to what did you learn this week? True to form, I got nothing I'm going to think about in the next 30 seconds. This could be completely off topic, not sobriety related at all. But a little nugget for the listeners, something that you said like, huh, I didn't know about that. Or I just learned that this week. Anything come to mind?

Frank Spinelli (1:02:04)
The Nugget.

I got mine.

Yeah, I got mine. So I guess I'm gonna date this because we have Mother's Day coming up and I always think about, I don't really think about it, but you the other day somebody said something to me. said, mother is also a verb. You can be very mothering. And.

I gave me lot of appreciation for my mother. She's 90. I never had a grandmother, but my niece became a mother. So my sister is a grandmother and my mother is a great grandmother, which makes me a great uncle. And so it made me really just step back and think, wow, all these women in my life, cause you know, they've how they nurtured me. I was the only boy and I had two older sisters and I really, I really

think in my own life and the way I approached medicine was very much like a mother. I feel like I mother my dog, like I'm the mother of the dog, you know, and I feel like there's, I don't have any sort of shame or stigma about saying that. And I think if anything, my nugget is going to be, I'm going to celebrate my mother.

better than I may have had in the past years and really let her know it. So if you do have a mother or you have somebody that is a mother to you, I suggest you do the same this week. So that's my nugget.

Kevin Bellack (1:03:42)
I'm not following that.

Frank Spinelli (1:03:43)
Alright, come on Max, you got a nugget for us? You probably got tons.

Max Miller (1:03:47)
Well,

so I read this book, this doesn't really have to do with sobriety, but like you were talking about generations and it's called Reparenting the Inner Child. It's a new book, Dr. Nicole LaPera. It's the new science of our oldest wounds and how to heal them. But ⁓ yeah, but she talked, you know, she talked in there about the generations that came before you.

Frank Spinelli (1:03:49)
Yeah now.

love that.

Max Miller (1:04:13)
You know, and I think about my grandmother who I spoke about earlier. She's from, she's 100 % German. She grew up in Germany. And I think about, you know, her parents and where they come from. you know, because we are, we are a byproduct of the generations that have come before us, right? We carry that DNA from generation to generation to generation. And, you know, there are some qualities and skills that

I have some gifts that I have. Well, you know, one of those is I'm very relational and I get that from the generations from before me, my personality, my DNA. so my nugget, guess, would be is, you know, because we like to focus on the things that are wrong with us. We have a negative bias, right? It's to keep ourselves safe. But what if we folk, you know, what I thought about focusing on

the good qualities that I have that have come from the generations before me and being grateful and thankful to them. And I don't know, that was a fun, that was a really fun practice for me to just share some appreciation for. Because I would love to hear stories from like my great, great, great grandfather. Like what was life like? I'm sure we could, you could do enough research with the internet today to figure that out. to hear the stories from them, well, I'll never get to do that.

Frank Spinelli (1:05:22)
Right.

Max Miller (1:05:32)
so I don't know if that's part of, you know, your third, like getting into your thirties, your late thirties, where you start to think about stuff like that. I feel like an old person, like being like.

Frank Spinelli (1:05:42)
Yeah, but just think you'll be able to do this now for your daughter and your grandchildren because of everything that you, you take it forward, I think, in a lot of ways. So that's something that you hold value. You'll do it now for your generations to come.

Max Miller (1:05:47)
Yeah.

Yeah, and I also, you know, I'm thinking about my legacy. Like, what do I want? You know, what are the generations after me going to say? And I'm writing that story today. And it's, you know, the thing about sobriety is I remember and maybe I'm getting off track, but I remember early on going, how am I going to be sober for like a month? Holy crap, a month is a long time. And I remember just joining a meeting there like just bro, just do today.

Just don't drink. You could think about drinking tomorrow, but today, just don't drink. And then you get, you know, that's how it's done. And so, the decisions we make on a daily basis will affect our legacy.

Kevin Bellack (1:06:37)
Yeah, that's like getting away from.

like specific goals, specific outcomes, not that goals and outcomes, you know, focusing on that stuff isn't good. It's just we're like, we focus on that. I have to do 30 days. I have to do this long. I have to do forever. I have to do. But you can't do that. And you can't do that today. Like, how am I going to? And so when we get overwhelmed, we we think like, well, I can't do that. So I'm just going to stop today.

versus, yeah, maybe I'm shooting for that, but why am I doing it? And can I do that today? Can I focus on my why my reason today? Because yeah, that's you stole my I eventually I'm flipping through my bullet journal here that I just I was like, I'll share about like, I just started doing gratitude journaling again. I'm like, one thing a day one line a day here, I'm going to add and I'm like, of course you talk

Frank Spinelli (1:07:16)
Yeah.

You

Kevin Bellack (1:07:29)
gratitude and like, all right, now I got to scramble and find something else here. ⁓

Max Miller (1:07:32)
It's long hanging fruit.

Frank Spinelli (1:07:34)
Well, you wanted to go last.

Kevin Bellack (1:07:34)
Yeah.

I didn't want to go last. just didn't have anything yet. But

I will share a quote that I read recently that I like. And it's something that everybody knows, at least part of it. But yeah, the gratitude thing is good. I was reading what's called Show Your Work. No, I'm reading Show Your Work. I read Keep Going by Austin Kleon.

More for related to creativity and writing and doing things like that. I his books are great. They're short, engaging, cool, you know, lot of good tidbits for life. But this one was he had a quote from Abraham Lincoln in there. And it said, it is said an Eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent him a sentence to be.

ever in view and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words, and this too shall pass away. And he said, how much it expresses how chastening in the hour of pride, how consoling in the depths of affliction, and this too shall pass away. So, but yeah, I always remember seeing that actor thing with Tom Hanks and Robert De Niro and.

I don't know what that was for, but you know, Tom Hanks is sitting there. He's like, I wish I knew this earlier in my life. He's like, this, this too shall pass. He's like, things are, things are bad. Things aren't going well. This too shall pass. Things are going great. You're on top of the world. This too shall pass.

Frank Spinelli (1:08:50)
Yeah.

Dish

to, yeah, it's very humbling.

Kevin Bellack (1:09:01)
and helpful, I think, because especially whenever it's we're struggling, right? It's not going to lie. At least things don't last forever. I don't know if that was a nugget, but it was a recent nugget that I

Frank Spinelli (1:09:10)
Yeah, well it's good.

Well, it was a nugget because I didn't know the origin, so thank you.

Kevin Bellack (1:09:14)
Yeah, yeah, that's true. neither. All right, I'm using it. All right. All right. Thanks, Max. Thanks, Frank. Any parting words from either of you that you'd like to share?

Max Miller (1:09:19)
Thank you. Thank you.

I'll share, hey, you too, I hope we get to talk again. I'll share my favorite, favorite, favorite, favorite quote by Albert Einstein. And he said, your imagination is the preview of life to come.

Frank Spinelli (1:09:24)
Yeah, pleasure meeting you.

Sure.

Kevin Bellack (1:09:40)
it. Frank, got a quote? want to round out? Okay. Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (1:09:42)
No, no, don't. put me on the spot. I think that's a good one to end with. That was good.

Max Miller (1:09:43)
I'm

Frank Spinelli (1:09:46)
Okay.

Kevin Bellack (1:09:47)
All right. Thank you all for listening to another episode of the Reframe Mobile Podcast brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. And I want to thank you again for listening and be sure to come back for another episode. Have a great day.