Building Momentum: Burnout, Identity, and Lasting Change

Join Coach Kevin and Coach Eric Fischer as they sit down with Gina Welch — a  nurse practitioner with 26 years in healthcare, a Reframer (three years alcohol-free) — to talk about identity, escape, and the long work of becoming someone new.

They dig into why heavy drinking is rarely about the drink (it's about what the drink lets you not feel), how working in an ER through COVID turned an already-heavy habit into something Gina did to forget every day, and why someone who built her entire life around drinking — the schedule, the friends, the rituals — described herself as "the last person" she'd have imagined giving it up. 

The conversation digs into:

• Why identity matters more than discipline in lasting change
• How to feel feelings instead of escaping them
• The "brain ruts" visualization 
• What maintenance looks like three years in
• And the small moments of distraction that change everything

The Reframeable podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the #1 app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you.

If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. If you have a topic you'd like us to cover on the podcast, send an email to podcast@reframeapp.com or, if you're on the Reframe app, give it a shake and let us know what you want to hear.

Transcript

0:05

Welcome, everyone, to another episode of the Reframeable podcast, the podcast that brings you people's stories and ideas about how we can work to reframe our relationship, not just with alcohol, but with stress, anxiety, relationships, enjoyment, and so much more. Because changing our relationship with alcohol is about so much more than changing the contents of our glass. This podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. My name is Kevin Bellak. I'm a certified professional recovery coach and the head of coaching at the Reframe app. And I am Eric Fisher. I'm happy to be here today. I'm also a coach at Reframe and I am in recovery. Yeah, I'm looking forward to a, to a, to a good conversation today. Yeah, likewise. Today we're joined by fellow reframer Gina Welch. Uh, she has worked in healthcare for 26 years and has made it her job caring for everyone else. She's currently three years alcohol-free now and finally able to start caring for herself as well. Welcome, Gina. Thank you. How's it going today? How's it going this week? It's going really well. Yeah. I'm here in Montana. It's beautiful weather here finally. Yeah. Yeah. What, uh, we- we're like chilly and rainy like the past week. Like I think a week ago, uh, it was like hitting the 90s and I was like, "Okay, this has to stop," and it listened. Uh, and I was happy. I, I like cold. Rainy, not so much, but… May have been a day to drink with the weather the way it is, you know? Spring's around the corner, the weather's getting better, people are around the pool and- Yeah you know, it's always an excuse, you know, to have a drink, so. It's funny because I was like, you, you kinda paused there, and I was like,"Okay, expand." I'm like, "Which one? The good weather or the bad weather?"'Cause I was like- Yeah, both … thinking both would be a good day to drink Sure. Didn't matter. In the past, yeah. Yeah. Like, oh, okay, it's sunny and warm, we're gonna be at the pool drinking. It's not, okay, well, now we're gonna… Well, now we're stuck in the house, and like, okay, now I'm sad and I'm gonna drink because of that. Yeah, Netflix and the couch. That's it, yep. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Well, Gina, do you wanna, um, go ahead and tell us a little bit about your, your, your journey here? Yeah. Yeah, I do. Um, one thing I always say about the fact that I now am three years alcohol-free, I have always said that I was the last person that I would've imagined letting go of alcohol entirely. Because being a drinker, a heavy drinker, was basically part of my identity for… Ever since I was a teenager, you know? I probably had my first drink when I was maybe 12, and then, you know, drinking pretty much whenever I could since I was 14 or so. But even before that, I remember when I was a kid, like, I couldn't wait to drink. I was excited about it. I, I remember, like, my parents sometimes used to drink red beers. I don't know, I guess they were with tomato juice. Mm-hmm. But I used to pour red Kool-Aid into my glass and be like, "Oh, I have a red beer." Or, you know, I would pour apple juice and pretend I was drinking beer because I couldn't wait. It, it seemed so great. And so I even had a dysfunctional relationship with alcohol before I ever had a drink. As I was excited about it right away. And then as soon as I could drink more often, I drank more often. And, you know, we can talk more about this later on, but I kept, as I progressed further and further into my life, there was always these, this stepwise approach to something that would push my drinking even further, you know? And, and it would push it a little further and a little further, and I never went backwards. I never scaled it back. Yeah. You know? Well, I guess I shouldn't say never. I have three kids, and I did, I did stop while I was pregnant each time, but, but that was for such a different reason. You know, that was specifically for that and for my kids. It didn't have anything to do with being for me. Mm. But yeah, I can, I can see all these places in my past where, where my drinking escalated after this thing, and then it never let up. It just kept escalating and escalating and escalating, um, until it kinda started reaching critical mass during COVID, and I've heard a lot of people say that because they were isolated at home or whatever. I was working in the ER at that time, and I was actually in charge of the ER, and it was just a scenario that led my drinking to go beyond anything I ever would've imagined, and that was kind of the beginning of the end for me, is just the way that it went for the next few years after that. But ultimately, I mean, it surprises me to say it, but by every objective measure, I would have to… You know, my life is better than it was when I was drinking. So, and that was, it was amazing, amazing to learn that over these last… It's been about four years, actually, since I got reframe. So yeah, been about a four-year process. What, uh, like you talked about those shifts, and I, I know exactly what that is. It's like, okay, it's, it's always like kind of going trending upward, right? But then there's those times that something happens, and it like sets that new, I think- I don't know if it… I, I picture a graph from, like, economics class where it's like that market shift, like something happened to shift it to a new level. Um, you know, a- and like we can have that, and it's like, yeah, it never, it, it never shifted down to a lower level until I obviously shifted down to, uh, not drinking eventually. But what led, I, I guess what, maybe what led to some of those, but I'm curious what led to whether it was just downloading Reframe or saying like,"Okay, I can't keep going this route." Yeah. So like I mentioned, I was working in the ER, was in charge of the ER. I was charge nurse, and that by itself was just this incredible amount of stress, you know, because- Yeah … I was managing all of the nurses. If any of the doctors had any problem, they would come to me. If any of the patients had any problem, they would come to me. Uh, if any of the ambulances came in, were mad for any reason, they would come to me. I had to manage the helicopters that were coming in, you know, and it was just this constant all the time. But then when COVID happened, oh my gosh, it was, it was just this level of craziness that nobody could have imagined before that, and especially at the beginning when nobody knew what was going on. Everywhere else closed but us, you know? And so we were the only place that people went, and it felt very like we were sacrificial lambs there, you know? And nobody else wanted to be exposed to this thing. Nobody else would go in the rooms. Like, X-ray wouldn't go in the room. Lab wouldn't go in the room. Nobody, you know, but, but it was like,"You guys, you guys go," you know? And- Yeah … and so that was just this, this huge stressful thing. And it was also really politically polarizing at that time because there was this huge contingent of people that were super strongly anti-vaccine, didn't even believe that COVID existed, you know? And meanwhile, we were seeing death on a scale that we had never seen before, even working in the ER, and I've seen death, you know, more times than I could possibly count. And, and then we'd have people, you know, screaming at us that COVID wasn't real until they died from it, you know? And there was almost this animosity toward healthcare in some of the people, you know. It was about half and half where I'm at here. And if we even asked people- You know, whether or not they were vaccinated and, and it just would turn into this big fight, this big screaming match almost a couple times. And, uh, so I basically, you know, I was, I was drinking heavily before that, but after that it turned into a very intentional thing. Like, I would come home at night and be like, "I don't want any memories of this day," you know? And, and I would just start drinking the second I got home, and I would drink until I passed out ev- you know, every night. And then it, and then of course it turned into nights that I hadn't been at work, and that's just what I was doing every day, no matter what. And so like so many other people, I know this is so many other people's story, I downloaded Reframe at some point because I was, you know, just obliterated out of my mind drunk every night. And I don't remember downloading it, like so many other people. But then I, then I realized that it was there, and if it had not be- had not been for the cut back option, I never would've even considered it. Never would've even… You know, because there was no way that I was gonna quit, you know? Absolutely not. Like, no way. So I started the journey of trying to be on cut back, and I, I mostly used Reframe as a drink counter at first. And I did that. You know, I'd read the articles. I didn't even realize that there were meetings until six or seven months in Hmm. And, and then when I first saw them, I was like, "Ugh, I don't wanna go to a meeting. That sounds terrible," you know? Um, but then cut back was not going great. I mean, I did cut back. I cut back a lot, which the way that I cut back probably kept me from ever having any actual withdrawals. I'm pretty sure I would've if I had tried to cut, you know- Yeah just go cold turkey. But yeah, I started actually going to Cutback meetings for-- I decided to, to try it, and it was… I didn't say anything for a long time, and then, you know, I started having my camera on. I started sharing. I actually started to feel like I had a little bit of community there, which was cool. But I still was having this thing happen that I would try to have some alcohol-free days, and I was knuckling through it, you know, the alcohol-free days, and I was just waiting for my day that I could drink, you know? And I was just like, "I gotta get there." And then when I would have my drinking day, I would drink probably more than I, than I ever was, you know? And then I would, then I would be sicker the next day because I wasn't as used to it anymore. And, and so it was just this cycle that I kept doing. And then there was an instance that happened with a trip that I took where I just drank super heavily every day. I was drinking with my brother. I flew home. I got drunk in the airport. I drank an entire bottle of wine when I got home. It was just, you know, it, it was this crazy, crazy time of drinking. And all the while, I'm supposed to be on Cutback, you know? And, and I just got so disappointed with myself that I was like, "I have got to put together…" My, my goal was, like, five days, 'cause I could never get by day four. And I was like, "I have got to string together five to seven days of being alcohol-free." And yeah, I don't, I don't know. I could, I could keep talking about this for a while. There was, uh, this crazy miracle that happened with that, actually. I got to, like, day four, and I could never get by day four, and I basically got to this point where I was like, "This is so out of my control. I am at the end of what I'm capable of." And, and I just kinda gave it up to I don't know what, God, you know . To just be like, "I am completely helpless in this," you know? And I woke up the next day and I couldn't smell or taste anything. And I was not sick. I took several COVID tests, you know? I was gonna say, that, that's the first thing that popped into my head. Oh, you got COVID. Yeah. Nope. Me too, yeah, yeah. Nope. And that was actually beyond when that was even a big symptom, you know? Yeah. But I took several COVID tests. They were all negative. I never got ill in any- Mm-hmm … appreciable way. Mm. But not being able to smell or taste anything kept me, like I was able to not drink, and that went on for 10 days. Mm. And- So, so you woke up on, on day five? Yeah. With that? Okay. Yeah. So that went on for 10 days, and it is… So it was, I was like,"Well, if I can't taste it anyway, it'd be a total waste," you know? And I, I s- I'm not gonna do this. And so I, with that, was able to go 17 days alcohol-free. And so after that I was like,"Well, I got to my goal," you know? I've g- I'm good now, I'm fixed now, you know? Yep. Mm-hmm. And so I decided to have a couple glasses of wine. This was, red wine was what I was doing then, and that was, like, allowable for me. I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna have two glasses of wine." I had two glasses of wine. I was out with my family for dinner, and it flipped the switch, just flipped it. I, I came home and I was like, "I need all the alcohol right now." Like, I just, I have to, I have to keep drinking. I, I'm… It just flipped the switch in my head. And through the cut-back process, I had gotten all the alcohol out of my house, because I learned that I needed to do that. And I went digging through the cupboard that I used to keep alcohol in. I was gonna go to the store. Um, I went digging through this cupboard, and I had a tiny, tiny little bottle that still had a little bit of Jagermeister in it. Sorry if that was, like, a trigger I should have warned about. No, it's just a trigger. But- I just kinda threw up in my mouth a little bit just thinking about it. Other than, other than that, you're fine. Yeah. That was a- So I had, I found this-… go-to for me … little itty-bitty bottle that was in the bottom of this cupboard that I used to keep my alcohol in, and there was probably, like, a third of the little bottle left, and I just slammed it right away. And I went to the sink and I refilled it with water, like, just in case there was a little bit more, and, and I drank that. And then I went and filled it up with water again, and I drank that. And I'm standing there at the sink and I was like, "This is ridiculous." Yeah. Like, "This, this is unbelievable. I am so completely out of control." And that was the beginning of me going alcohol-free. I didn't know for sure if that was gonna last, but that, that Jäger, that was the last alcohol that I ever had, so. That's, that's so f- that's so fascinating. I, I mean, isn't it amazing? Now, now you, now, n- I mean, all of us here, but you have the ability to look back and how the brain changes, and we're exposed to it at an early age, and then we age up, and then it becomes an issue at some point. And what, uh, uh, looking back on that, are, are you, are you in tune with that old version of you? Like, do you remember her, or do you, have you worked in such a way to put certain parts of you in a real way behind you now that it's been four years? What else have you done to kind of outgrow the old version of you and take these steps towards living an alcohol-free life after, after, after- You know, I, I imagine all of our rock bottoms are so different, but that seems to me, that story is so palpable for me personally. It's like an, it's like a, like an aha, kind of like a waking up- Yeah … type of moment for you. And then it stuck. And so what else have you done kind of onwards to maintain living an alcohol-free life, especially early on, early on too, I guess? Early on was a totally different ball game. What I s- I definitely do remember, I r- I, you know, I, I have good memories of what it was like when I was so excited about drinking. I just feel so different from that now. I kind of look back on that part of myself and, and it makes me, you know, a little sad. I wasted so much of my life being drunk. But I've also gotten to the point where it's like, well, I, I can't go back and do anything about that. I can only, I can only move forward. And, uh, yeah, in, in early sobriety, I spent so much time on it, so much time, so much effort. I went to, like, four or maybe five meetings a day if I could get 'em. There, when I first went alcohol-free, there weren't that many meetings yet. I think there were maybe two or three. But I also kind of got really involved in Reframe during a time when it was really ramping up, you know? Um- Mm-hmm.'Cause we're, are we talking, like, obviously 2022? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I feel like we just, like, started, uh, like f- I wanna say, I'd have to look at this, but four years ago, like right now, this timeframe would've been, like, we created our first, like, women's and men's meeting. Yeah. And, you know, and, and we probably had, we have, like, I don't know, three, we have a average about 10-plus a day on Zoom now, 350-plus a month. Back then it was, we had our daily check-ins. They were half-hour check-ins, I think, still. Yep. And so, yeah, there was definitely a lot less meetings to choose from. Mm-hmm. But yeah, so hitting those up- Yeah … as, as many as you could. Yeah. And, um, and then I read all the Quit Lit. I was just, I was always in a book. You know, I was listening to books if I wasn't reading 'em. So basically, it's like, staying alcohol-free was what I was thinking about constantly. You know? Started journaling. When you started having journaling meetings, I was going to those. Yeah. And then when we started having the healthcare specific meet- the helping professions meeting- Yeah that's where I really found, like, a home in, in that. Started getting really comfortable with sharing there, and that's how I started building a community, you know? And, and ultimately- Having that community around me and meeting those people and talking to them even outside of ReFrame, that is such a huge part of what count- kept me alcohol-free. Like, over and over again, I would have these times where I wanted to drink, and I wanted to so bad, but I would then come to this choice of, like, I had these people in my life now that were really important to me, and I would either have to lie to them or show up and tell them that I had drank, you know? And, and the amount that I didn't wanna do either of those things was enough to keep me from drinking that day, you know? So it was just, yeah, like meetings, Quit Lit, community. It was, it was just ba- I felt like it was just about all I did other than going to work, you know? So it was so labor-intensive, and then, and then it was also really motivating the further I got to be like,"Well, I never wanna go back to the beginning of that because that sucked." You know? It's like, "I never wanna do that again." So yeah. Well, you talk, you're, you're speaking a, a lot of the day ones that we, that we hear about in a way- Mm-hmm … because it's like the closer we are to, to… So it's progressive. It enters our life, and we deem it a problem at some level at some point, um, and then we decide to be proactive on it and take some action to work, you know, away from it, and that's progressive as well. So, so to mitigate, so community, showing up even when you didn't want to, and, uh, being proactive and, and self-educating. How long, you know, to help people who are watching and listening, those, those early one-week, two week, a month, the two months, like those, that, that almost gravitational pull, a lot of this is, is, is that dopamine blast, those first couple drinks. But nonetheless, like, looking back, how, how long did it take you for those urges, you're, you know, you're showing up every day multiple times a day at ReFrame early on, for those urges to kinda dissipate over time? There's that, that window of, of people kinda losing hope in a way at times, and then because they go back. How long did it take you to kinda separate from urges? Hmm. Well, I guess I would say it probably took me about three weeks before I didn't wanna drink constantly. For some reason, I had a really hard time between, like, day 55 and day 75. I don't know. It, I, I was doing a little bit better before that, and, and I don't, I just had a really rough time around then. I remember looking forward to 90 days as such a huge milestone because there was the 90-day meeting, and, and it was- Yeah … like this, this place to get to that That just felt so far out there. And then, you know, getting past 90 days was really cool. I would say, you know, and, and there were still triggers and times that I'd kind of get pulled back, but by the time I got to, gosh, I would say about four months, I, I really w- didn't have the constant triggers. It would take, it would take something like Christmas, like Thanksgiving was really hard. Christmas was really hard, 'cause those, those were days that, you know, before I would start drinking at, you know, in the morning. So i- you know, and that was like that context of drinking. But yeah, I would say that it was maybe four months, five months, and, and I didn't feel like I was thinking about it all the time. Mm. Yeah. I think that, that context of drinking is, like, so important for people to be aware of, because, like, I was hitting Thanksgiving and Christmas at seven and eight months, and so I was cruising from, like, month three or four to month six, seven, and then all of a s- I can't believe I just said six, seven. Six, seven. Yeah, I know. My daughter in my head. Uh- Oh, yeah, mine too I can't believe I couldn't get past that without saying it too. But like, I, I should cut this out, but we'll just leave it. Uh, the, uh- We'll leave it. You've gotta leave it … but it's like that context, right? It's like, oh, I'm at s- why would I, you know, somebody might be like, "Well, why am I at seven months," or, "Why am I at four months and feeling this?" It's like, well, Thanksgiving, I didn't go, I didn't hit that holiday in the first period of time, right? And I feel like that's so important. I, I hear that all the time, and I try to remind people of like context, like the first time I'm going on vacation, the first time I'm hitting this holiday or this milestone or this or that, or ha- you know, dealing with grief or dealing with excitement and celebration and, you know, all those things, they're all different, right? So, you know, understanding that, okay, I didn't go through this yet. Even if I went through something similar, maybe I didn't go through this exact thing, and I, I almost say think like just giving yourself a break on that, right? It's like understanding that, okay, these, these triggers, these cravings, urges, thoughts, whatever we wanna call them or whatever it is, you know, that's showing up are gonna happen, and for different reasons. So it's like, okay, well, why did that show up this time? Okay, it's because it, it, it's Thanksgiving, and this is a time, like every Wednesday before Thanksgiving, I think it's called Blackout Wednesday, I would go out and drink, take the day off and do all this stuff, right? And so, you know, just be- being aware of that and, and looking out for w- you know, what's coming up I think is so important. But- Mm-hmm … yeah, that's, it's interesting too, the 55 to 50, 75 days. I feel like at a certain point, you know, do you feel like it was like just becoming kind of your normal, and it's like, ugh, okay. It's like the mu- it becomes mundane almost. Like it can be exciting at first to be feeling better or to be working on something. I feel it kind of creeps into that, like, space where it's like, okay, like how, is this it? Is this what I'm gonna be doing now? Right. Yeah. And, and actually, I remember that during that time, I don't remember the name of it, but the book I was reading that was about, like, addressing alcohol and, and that kind of stuff, it, reading it was actually making me think about it more. Mm-hmm. Like it was making, it was- Yeah … written in such a way that it was making me want it. And I remember waking up, like I was having lots of drinking dreams at that time, and I remember waking up from a dream That I was, like, drowning in whiskey, and I knew I was gonna die, and I didn't even care in the moment because I got to drink. Hmm. And I was like, "Man, this is messed up." Um, but yeah, that was, that was during, during that, like, 55, 75-day timeframe. Yeah, it's so fascinating, isn't it? How, how all of us, you know, how, how we… I mean, mine was more extreme. I was in the hospital, and it was kind of like a radical, I mean, there, there was a radical understanding that I wasn't drinking again. What my life was gonna look like in the future was a big old question mark. But in the moment, I, I mean, I just put myself in, in a situation where I d- you know, uh, I was either gonna go, you know, meet the man upstairs or make a choice to dec- to, to change, you know? And so it, it's, uh, quite fascinating that we're all different, and then we get the pink cloud or… And then some people, like for me, for example, those urges honestly weren't, I've never really had them, interestingly. Yeah. But other people struggle quite a while, and then there's the pink cloud, and then all of a sudden, Kevin, back to your point, it's like we wake up one day and we go, "Oh, is this what my life is now li- uh, you know, is like?" And there's a There's a, you know, there's, there's a feeling of, like, normality in a way, but also coupled with anxiety and, and, and uncertainty with how, you know, what our life is gonna look like in the, in the future. And, and knowing that environment, um, and dri- you know, drives behavior, so tied to our behavior and choices. Like, as you f- got further and further away from alcohol, did you have to reshape, uh, the people in your life? And not necessarily remove people, but just kinda maybe redefine what some of those relationships look like and maybe change… You, you mentioned before as well, so you changed, uh, you changed jobs even, careers even. Like, i-is there anything else that you had had to kinda, like, rethink and reshape and to, to s- further stabilize your, your march forward? Definitely. Definitely. And that's, I think, secondary to that I had built my life around being able to drink, you know? And I had so much structured around when I needed to be drinking by, you know? I, I basically, unless it was forced on me or unless it was something that I could drink at, I never made plans past 4:00 in the afternoon because I needed to be drinking by then. And if one of my kids had a concert that I had to go to at school or something like that, oh my gosh, I resented that 'cause I wasn't gonna get home

until 8:00 or 8: 27:21

30 at night, and I was supposed to have been drinking for, like, four hours by then, you know? And so I, I had so much of my life, I would only go places that I could drink at, and I would only go places with people who would drink with me, you know? So there was so much of that that I had to restructure and find substitutes and substitute activities. I actually, my next-door neighbor for years before that was my drinking buddy, and we would kinda, you know, egg each other on and, and she was actually a pretty forceful person in that way. Like, I would, I would say, "Oh, okay, I, this is getting pretty bad 'cause I have to work in the morning and I gotta go," and she would, like, open beers and shove 'em at me, you know? So she, she was pretty, pretty forceful that way. So- I basically stopped hanging out with her at all because that was such an en- like, an environment full of traps, you know? So I was like, I just, I just stopped going over there entirely. And then at the beginning, too, alcohol substitutes were a really big deal for me. It's, it's gotten so they're, you know, that's not near as big a deal. But I know some people say that they actually get triggered by, by alcohol substitutes, but there were a lot of times where I really felt like it, it saved me. Being able to have something in my hand, being able to, you know, have that replacement was a, was a big deal for me, especially at the beginning. Yeah. The, the, the non-alcoholic drinks are, I don't know if I'd call them controversial, but yeah, they really work really, really, really well for some, and then others, other people don't really care for them. Yeah. Especially that red wine. I've heard the wine isn't- Oh, yeah. It's not good … isn't very good. Every once in a while- But it seems to be-… I'll hear somebody say like, "Oh, I've had this one, and this one is really good." But yeah, it's hard to… Uh, whereas beer, I think they, and non-alcoholic beer, they have it kinda down- Yeah at, at this point. And I actually, yeah, I just went ne- next door to a grad party, uh, this past weekend and brought my Guinness Zero with me just to have. Yeah. Some of the NA beers are creepily similar. Like, it would, it would creep me out. Like- Yeah … are you sure there's no alcohol in this? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Guinness is one of those where it's like, okay, I can't go back and compare right now, but, uh, somebody else, uh, like, I feel like it tastes exactly the same. Me too. Yeah. And yeah, it's just if it, if it feels triggering for you to have one of those, or it might be if you haven't tried them yet, don't do it is my advice. Uh, but if you try it and it works, then that can be, yeah, it's just that, you know, keep the ritual, change the recipe, right? It's like that- type of thing that can just be a little bit more comfortable at a setting where you're out with people or, uh, anything like that. But, or even I know I've had them, like, coming… I, I cut the grass, and I was like, "Oof, I get this hot. Like, I could really go for…" I'm like, "Do I have anything?" And I looked, and do I have any non-alcoholic, and I did have a Heineken Zero, and I'm like, "Okay, that tasted damn good." And I probably hydrated myself more because of that, instead of dehydrating myself for, with the alcohol in it. But, uh, yeah, those can be helpful. Um- Did you find yourself… So, so they say, I mean, depending on who you, who you, who you speak to, of course, but so the, that, that urge and that, that all-in on the alcohol side when somebody removes the alcohol, so everything has an opposite. If we say yes to alcohol, we're saying no to something else, right? So right has no definition without wrong, good and bad, et cetera. So if we're saying no to the alcohol, and then loss gain maybe is one way to look at it too, is like we're saying no to the alcohol. Where else have you, have you found that has helped you put your energy? Well, this, I was also in kind of a unique situation for this because I would hear a lot of people that would talk about how much free time they had in meetings. That was always a big, that was always a big thing, and that was absolutely not the case for me at all because I went back to school, and so I was in graduate school. And the first month or two that I was in grad school, I was trying to balancing it, balance it with being able to drink by 4:00 in the afternoon, and it was not going well. So that was, that was probably part of the things that contributed to me stopping. But, uh, that I, I was like, "Man, that sounds like a hard problem'cause I don't have any free time." Uh, so it was, you know, I, I filled it up with, with studying and really threw myself into school, in addition to that I was reading all the Quit Lit and doing that kind of stuff. But it, it was, it was kinda lucky for me early on that I had something that was that time-consuming because I heard lots of people struggle with having the free time and what to do with it. You, you had the free time, you just, it was already filled. Yeah. Right? It was like, yeah, 'cause that is, that can be a difficult thing. But, uh, uh, 'cause thinking about the op- the, it sounded like you started school while drinking, right? I did. So yeah, balancing that with, you know, like you said, starting at 4:00 or 4:30. Yeah, and that's the, that's the time you, quote unquote,"found," but it was already found. It's just, yeah, you were able to- Yeah apply more of that to it. That's great. Well, I was also spending an extreme amount of time on meetings too, as much as I could. Yeah. You know? So that's what I was doing with a, a lot of my time. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, Erica, I thought you, I thought you were gonna, I don't know. Oh yeah, no, I was just thinking like, you know, have, have-- So, so, w- so with your, with your, so your master's degree set a new aim for yourself longer term, it seems like. Yep. And, and, and without a, a vision, I, I, I, I tend to really like this, this topic is setting a vision, you know? It's do- figuring out what it is that we wanna do with our life moving forward and kinda the gri- a few things that grip you, your career, finances, relationships, health and wellness. It can be a nu- it can be the world is at your disposal with how you think about it, but setting a vision. So did that o- once, once you started removing alcohol from your life, now you're back in school getting your master's and, and that's your aim, did that further kind of cement you day over day in helping you, uh, put alcohol behind you long term because of where it is that you felt like you were going was clear? I mean, the brain re, is a, is a, is a goal-seeking machine, literally, so positive and negative emotion, and without longer term aims, the brain can, can default downwards into novelty, aimlessness, learned he-help-helplessness and hopelessness, et cetera. So like, how, like h-how, how important was, was, was, was not only the education, but then what came after finishing your degree? Was that a, was that a major part of you, of you staying away from alcohol long term, was setting a, a vision for yourself moving forward? It was. It was a big part of it because- You know, I, I was working in the ER. I was in the ER for 15 years, and that was, like, my specialty, you know? I was, I was kinda, you know, I was in charge. I was the person that anybody would go to for questions, and I had so many students with me over the years. Oh my gosh. And I always thought that I was gonna be in the ER until I retired. But going back to that time with COVID again, and the way that I started drinking during that time, I kinda morphed into this experience where I just stopped feeling anything. Like, I just felt like I was dead. And I, I hate to say that I stopped caring about my patients, because I always wanted the best for the patients. I mean, I, I never lost that. But I felt like I lost the ability to feel anything, you know? And so once I started realizing, like, I am not having any emotions about anything, even outside of work, I started thinking to myself, "I think I need to get out of the ER." And that was part of the goal there, because I'm a nurse practitioner now, and so I have my own office. It's totally different, and that was part of the goal, that I was like, it was, it was a little bittersweet because I loved the ER and I loved it for a long time, but I was also looking at this point out in the future, like, "And I'm gonna leave it 'cause it's time." And it was a huge motivator. Because I had had those couple months where I was trying to go to school and drink at the same time, and it was like, that is not working. And so that was, yeah, a very big motivator to, to not pick it back up, is that I was working on this, this big goal. Yeah. So you, so you, so you naturally kinda put yourself in the, in, in, in the, what would it be? The, the center of a, of a road that's splitting, right? So you can, you can stay where you're at and keep the current job and continue to have drinks, but, but yet the longer term vision, the goal that you set for yourself longer term, that won. Yeah. Because you, you, you just, you know, maybe unconsciously kind of pushed yourself up against a choice you had to make, and the longer term vision is, is, is what you chose, so that's, I mean, that's incredible. You know, oftentimes that does what it, that, that is what it- Um, I mean, in combination with the meetings and community and the journaling and all the tools, right? But when we're congruent, we're, we're in alignment, those choices that we make in a practical day-over-day world are much easier when we know where it is that we're going. Yeah, definitely. When, when did you make that switch from being in the ER to full-time with being a nurse practitioner? Um- Just curious the timeframe of that… I actually just did my last shift in the ER on April 4th- Oh, okay … this year. But I've been-- I graduated in August of last year, but I had-- I gave up my bid in the ER, so I wasn't working near as much. I was, you know, I was working one or two days a week, and then trying to kind of juggle both of them. Took a little while to get my practice going and, you know, get it up to a level where I could actually make enough money doing that. And yeah, so, so I just got out of the, the ER- Okay … entirely in April. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Um, yeah, I was just curious, like, yeah, how long were you-- Was it like a quick patch over in the beginning, or I, I'm guessing it took some time there. So, uh, yeah, 'cause I was just interested in the thoughts on, yeah, if you were still doing that as it, you know, maybe full-time, how that would've played into this. But making this switch, I'm assuming al-also reinforces you taking care of yourself, you doing this and not o- I, I don't wanna say overly stressing yourself because, I mean, we're, we're always stressed. We're always gonna be worried about things at work and, and all of that. But it sounds like just a different, different and better situation- Yeah that you have transitioned into. It is. It's a, it's a completely different kind of stress. I mean, there's still- Yeah. It's, it's been a lot to transition 'cause it's, it's like a lot more responsibility personally on me in some ways. Yeah. But it's not life and death all the time, you know? Yeah. And, and that's what I had gotten so used to, and I think that was part, you know, along with the heavy drinking, of why I wasn't feeling anything anymore. Because no matter what you see at work, you have to walk into the next room, you know? Yeah. You, you watch, you watch somebody die, and then you gotta go take care of the next patient, and the next one, and the next one. So you, you just kinda… You can't have the ti- You can't sit and process a loss. You can't, you know, it… You can't cry for this thing that you just saw happen. I mean, maybe a little, but it's, you know, you, it's just this constant, no matter what horrible thing just happened, you really can't sit with it. And so it's, it's just, it's just totally different now. Yeah. Yeah. There isn't, you know, nobody comes in dying to see me anymore, so. Yeah. Yeah. And, and on top of that, too, it's like, yeah, dealing with, you know, working with patients and that, and then also you're dealing with coworkers and like you said, like, the a- the ambulance per- uh, person from, the EMT or whatever, like, they're all coming at you for, with issues, right? Yeah. Nobody's coming at you to be like,"Good job today," or whatever. It's always- Like, so I think, I feel like you're probably being just ta- uh, just constantly stressed and taxed because it's like constantly dealing with supporting people, but also supporting other people who are coming to you with nothing but problems, because that was, yeah, your role. I was getting stressed out just hearing about that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it, I mean, it makes sense, too, right? Because drinking and novelty from, from social media, pornography, opioids, alcohol, the harder drugs, those are all escapes from something. Yes And so, you know, when, when it's normalized, I mean, this depends on, on our age too, but, but, but the three of us here together are, are old enough to remember what it was like to grow up analog. And then so there was boredom and life was very different. And then if we had… My parents were drinking at the end of the day. My dad, mom and dad would have some beers and, you know, talk about the day and all that. And so it was exposed for me as well. And you were exposed early on, and alm- and, and even mimicked what, what the parents were doing- Yeah at a young age. So that's like, you know, that shapes us, and then all of a sudden we're in this high octane and it, and you thrive under chaos, so you're a decision maker and a leader. So there's a part of you that kind of loved it in a way, and then there's that escape. But yet again, when you, when you set that aim and then take the action on the, on the day in and day out piece as well, I mean, what are some of the things that you, having the ability to look back and, and to somebody who feels like, "You know, I'm never gonna be where she is," and then I, and then you hear the other stories in the community, and some people are 90 days and a couple years, but they still stay around Reframe, you know? They still stay around the community because it's so important to them. What… Anybody who's listening, you know, better on the other side, so to say, like, what are some things that you notice that are just, like, like maybe have surprised you on how good your life is on, on the other side of this now that you have a job that's a little bit more predictable? It's not, it's not boring or mundane, but you've engineered some sort of peace in your life that keeps you, and it's service oriented, so you're still helping people and you're still kind of like in that same trajectory. What are some things that, that, that will encourage people to, to say like, "Hey, keep showing up. We know it's hard, but it does get better"? Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, it really does. I guess, you know, it's, it's not nearly as hard as it used to be. I, I get… You know, there's, there's a song, I forget who sings it, but, um, it's, you know, it gets easier, but it never gets easy, you know? It's, yeah, I, I, I guess it's, that's almost, that's almost the opposite of what you asked me. I'm like… That's… Because things still come up from, from time to time. But what I can say Has come out of this is this unbelievable freedom because I really, to needing to drink. Like, you know, like I said, that I, I had it set up that I had my whole life structured around when I could drink next, and that I needed to be doing things that I could drink at. And, um, and it's just, it's just so amazing that I don't have that anymore. It's so freeing. And I guess one of the biggest differences too is that early on, I had this resentment, and, and I think that's what was going on during that day 55 to 75 day. You know, I, I was like, "Why do I have to deal with this, and other people don't seem to have to deal with this?" Like, why, why is it, why do I have to deal with this problem and other people don't? And, and that was back when I was still thinking of drinking as, as a reward or, you know, as, as something that was like a prize or something special. And I got to this place probably after about six months or so where I started looking at it like, "No, I actually, I deserve a life without this," you know? And that was this amazing transition where it became not something that I was missing out on, you know? And, and I struggled with that missing out on it thing quite a while, but it was so incredible to start looking at it like, "Yeah, I don't- I don't need that. I'm, you know, this is awesome. And, and to get to that place where I stopped looking at it like something that I was missing out on, that, that has just been the best shift. Yeah, you, you, you moved from extrinsically focused to intrinsically focused, and then from, from more of like a, an outsider in perspective into, like, autonomy. So a lot of these psychology folks, let's say Jung and Piaget, and there's a number of them, say that we're all moving towards autonomy. Hmm. Every human being, and so, so you came, like, like the, the lights came on, the, the brain kinda woke up and you said, "You know what? I'm not… I'm gonna… I'm kind of, I'm thinking about this differently," so whereby we reverse it and say,"I deserve to have the life that I choose, and I'm gonna build towards this irrespective of what other people think, and I'm gonna do it my way, put the mask on myself first be- while the plane's going down," because as a… because in turn you can be there for those that you love in, in your life. But I think that's really, you know, it's amazing. You know? Isn't, isn't it amazing? Yeah. As we fight as hard as we can, and it takes some time, and the cognitive load, we plan in the morning, we're planning in the evening for what the drinking schedule's gonna look like, and we're in this tornado, and then all of a sudden we can remove ourself, or we do remove ourself and look in on it, and we go, "Oh, now I kind of understand." And it's not to say that we're, every day is without a, an urge, or every day is not without some sort of obstacle in front of us, but yet we're, we're more resilient and we're more clear and more confident in ourself to say no to that because we're saying yes to these other pieces of our life that continue to drive us forward. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I guess the other thing that started happening, too, the further I got into it, is when I first went alcohol-free, like, I didn't wanna tell anybody. I was really ashamed. Like, I was ashamed that I ever had a problem, or I didn't want anybody to know that. And so the first couple times that I went out or went to a concert or something like that without drinking, I would make sure that you couldn't see the can of alcohol-free beer. I would put it into a regular glass so it, it just looked like I had beer, you know, 'cause I didn't, I didn't want anybody to know. And that's something I hear people talk about in meetings quite a bit, too, is like, "Well, what do I tell people? Why do I tell them that I'm not… H- how do I tell them that I'm not drinking? Or what kind of excuse can I make?" You know? And I feel like once I also stopped viewing it as as much of a reward and something I was missing out on, it also led me to this place where I didn't care what other people were thinking, and I almost got a little defiant with it. I, for a while, like if somebody asked why I was not, wasn't drinking, I'd be like, "Why are you?" What's, what's the matter with you, you know? But yeah, what I, what I usually say anymore when somebody asks, if anybody asks why I'm not drinking, I usually say that, you know, I went pro, I went pro early so I could retire. Yeah. Nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Honesty. I mean, do you, do you, do you find that, and Kevin, curious your view on this too, is like that perceived fear of what other people think, right? Yeah. That one of the, one of the fundamental fears of human beings is, is being embarrassed in front of our peers. And do you, do you find that people even care to begin with, or they're just overly c- they're… I mean, so m- so many people, you walk in a room of a, with 100 people and 95 of them are all thinking the same thing. They're thinking about how, how they're being viewed towards everyone else. Yeah. You know, only a small few are those, you know, true independent-type thinkers. Do you, do you feel that, that people even care at all whether you have a drink or not? I'll go some do, right? Okay. And- Some do Fair. Fair … why, why? Because I think, you know, we always say that I kinda go back and forth on this, like anytime somebody says something or like, "Oh, you're not drinking?" Like, it pushes you on it. You know, we, we tend to say or I'll tend to say in a meeting like,"That has more to do about them than it does about you." Yeah. Which is true, I think. Yeah. But I don't wanna say that, like, everybody who says that has, like, a problem necessarily. Sometimes it's just what people say, right? Some pe- sometimes it's just to make conversation or it's just like the normal thing that someone will say. And so you, you kinda wait and see, like, "Well, are they really gonna push this or are they just joking around?" I know I was, you know, worried about that. I would not have had the Guinness Zero next door because I didn't have a tall can holder to put it in. In, in the past I always talked about my, my Yeti can holder was my little security blanket. I would just pop a soda or a non-alcoholic beer in there and shut the cap on top, and I'd be sitting there with that, and nobody could see what I had. Yeah, you could see a little bit of the top. I definitely would've had that next door, and I've had that next door, uh, you know, early on when I was like, I didn't wanna draw attention to myself. I didn't wanna get asked questions. I didn't wanna be pressed with it. And because I wasn't comfortable with it. Once I got comfortable with what I was doing, or at least more so, like, then I'm like, "Okay, I don't care as much about that." I didn't put as much emphasis on worrying about what other people might think. But I mean, that, that fear, I think, is real. A- especially if like, you know, Gina, I know you mentioned this. For me, it was like a big part of my identity and, like, I always was bringing, like, "Hey, you gotta try these new things." And like, I was always talking about or it was always- Yeah … part of my life, so therefore, for it not to be was very shaky and uncomfortable ground. Oh. So- Yeah, it's tough. It's tough. Yeah. I don't know if you felt the same, Gina, or- Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Like I s- being a heavy drinker, it, that was such a forward part of my identity. I, you know, I was always talking about, you know, which beers I liked and which kind of things, and, and everybody that I was around knew that about me, you know? And every time I ever went out to dinner with anybody, I would, I would always be, you know, getting something to drink and always drinking at concerts, always drinking at baseball games, always drinking no matter what we were doing, you know? So it was a big change, it, and it was a change that people noticed. Yeah, so, and one of the really uncomfortable things about that for me during that time too was that I can look back with some shame during the time that I was drinking That I have been the person before who was like, "You're not drinking? You're no fun." Mm-hmm. Yeah."Come on." You know? And, and I remem- I've been that person before. Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I look back now and go,"Ugh, what an, what a jerk." Yeah. That's a hard one. Same. That's a hard one, starting to… Yeah. Yeah, I'm with both of you, too. Yeah, that's a hard one, navigating those, those waters of, of the people that are in our life, you know? And so I was curious how you, how both you guys handle that. Yeah, I was, I was similar, I suppose, at the very beginning. And then you learn about human behavior and you're like, oh yeah, the ones that are giving you a hard time, it's because you're, you're separating yourself from the herd, and you put a mirror up- Yep in front of some people, and it's, you know, it's that whole thing, too. And then the ones that, you know, are very secure, um, in themselves aren't the ones usually that I've found are, they're not really the ones kind of like nagging you. Yeah. But it's hard. They kind of- You know? That's a hard… That's, that's hard when we try to pull back from alcohol, whether it's going alcohol-free or cutting back. That's a, that's a, that's a, that's a hard one. Yeah. Yeah, 'cause I, I… And I'll say, too, like, nobody… While I kind of like might try and minimize that whole thing about like that's more about them than it is about you, you know, I, I do 100% think that people who don't have an issue with their relationship with alcohol or, or have a f- you know, their relationship with alcohol is just fine or, you know, it's whatever, it's not a big part of their life or whatever, like they're never gonna give you shit for- Yeah. Yeah … not drinking, right? And so it, it's, that only reinforces the fact that, you know, when somebody does, yeah, it might be just a offhanded comment that wasn't really a big deal or just a kind of a joke 'cause, you know, I'm go- I'm going to hang out with my brothers or friends and stuff, you know, we give each other shit for random stuff and it's all kind of in jest for the most part, right? But yeah, there's definitely some of those thi- some times where it is, you know, like people feel… And that's why I didn't wanna like, I, I didn't wanna talk about it either'cause I didn't want people to think like- Yeah … "Oh, you think you're better than… You're not drinking now, all of a sudden you're better." I'm like, "No, never said that at all." Yeah. Yeah. Never at all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's like if somebody gets healthier or loses weight or starts working out or training for something, and like the, people come out with that, too. Like, "Oh, look at you," like, "You have to go home early so you can run during the morning," or whatever. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's like, because I'm pissed that I'm not doing that. Right. Yeah. I found that so many- If not- … of those conversations that I had early on would always turn into, like if the person was giving me a hard time, it would turn into them justifying why they didn't. You know? It would always- Yeah … I, I got a lot of people explaining to me about why how they drink makes sense, and they don't think that they really have a problem. There was a- Yeah … I, I remember having a lot of those conversations. Yeah. I remember saying a couple times, like,"Dude," if I'm talking to a friend, I'm like, and, and they're like, "Yeah, I only really drink on, you know, usually on the weekends with people, sometimes on a Tuesday or maybe a Thursday if there's, like, a basketball game on or whatever." I'm just like, "Dude, I, you know, I'm not, this is no judgment on you. This is just something I'm doing." I'm like- Yeah … "You do you. You don't have to give me the rundown. If you wanna talk about it, we can, but, you know, I don't feel obligated to do this right now." Yeah. Yeah. And then, yeah, and I wanted to mention, too, on that 'Cause I always thought that too, like this was a reward. This was something that after a tough week at work, I deserve this on a Friday night. And I kind of just been, especially lately, just really hammering on this, like alcohol, food, whatever, like alcohol's never a reward. We think it is. I think- Mm-hmm … I, I know I did. I think we think that is. But I think looking at this from a different perspective is, you know, especially from like a habit formation, a behavior perspective, it's the thing that we do to get, get the reward, right? We want to relax. We, we want to unwind. We wanna celebrate something, and we think like, "Okay, that is the reward I'm giving myself for this." But it's… No, it's the feeling attached to it. It's the actual relaxation. It's the actual feeling of accomplishment when celebrating something or whatever. This is just like part of the response that we do. And so when we uncouple that and say like, I, I know when I used to say like,"Oh, I deserve a drink because I had a tough week," I look at it now as like, well, what was I actually saying there? It's like, I deserve to relax, but with alcohol, if I was inserting that into the equation, I also deserve to feel shittier the next day. Uh, I deserve to drink, start drinking earlier the next day to feel better. I deserve to get shittier sleep. Like, I'm also saying that I deserve that when I said I deserve a drink, because I couldn't have the relaxation part without the shitty part too. So I think looking at the whole picture, it was a kind of a eye-opener for me to start like, yeah, seeing it for what it really was and not just that little bit that was good at night, like the unwinding, the connection, the whatever. Right. Yeah, anyway. Yeah. I remember feeling very much like, like I can't relax without this. Mm-hmm. You know? Like, like I need this thing, otherwise- Yeah … I couldn't even imagine, like how do you unwind- Yeah … without a drink, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, well, on, on that note, I'm curious, like if 4:00 was your started the witching hour- Yeah how do you, what do your evenings look like now? Well, let's see. Uh- Or, or, or early on, whichever. Yeah, yeah. I, I guess that's, that's really where a lot of the alcohol replacement came in, especially, especially early on. Because, you know, when you talk about those, those little habits and those little things that are, that are driving us, I mean, I always opened a bottle of wine while I was making dinner every night, you know? And, and so it was that kind of stuff, like, like still pouring something into a glass and still having something that I was sipping on while I was doing that. Yeah, but- But now I actually go for walks in the evening. I have shows that I watch if I'm hanging out with my kids, and, and I actually remember them, you know? Yeah. I… It- Not that, not that we never put the TV on or anything, but I would just sit there with my drink and basically melt into the sofa while I was, while I was drinking and not remember anything about the evening. And, you know, I actually, I play cards with my kids now. You know, that's, that's another thing that it's, I actually have relationships with, with my family that feel so much more significant now because I was just getting drunk before. You know, and so that's really rewarding, too, like, to have the actual relationships with the people I'm around. Yeah. So connect- connection, tightening up, being, being present with your family, remembering the shows, which sparks convers- good conversation that's trusted and rooted in integrity, and, um, there's a curiosity to that as well. Yeah, so, you know, it, it doesn't take… You know, oftentimes people think that it takes a massive overhaul to change our entire life to overcome the alcohol, and it doesn't. That's not really the case. You know, sometimes, sometimes you do. Sometimes you need to kinda gut and restart, and then other times they're little tweaks. You know, little tweaks, little changes in how it is that we view a situation, showing up just a little bit different each time. You know, so sometimes… So do you feel like it were the, it, it was… I mean, you had the big shift, master's, uh, still in, still s- like adjacent to what you were doing before career-wise, but then- Yeah so, so do you feel like your changes were more, like, more gradual and mindful and gaining awareness over time, uh, you know, compared to, like, an overhaul of your life? Yeah, I think for the most part, you know, I mean, my, my entire life isn't that different. You know, it was, it was mostly, uh… It- There is so much to be said for learning how to feel your feelings. It, it… So much of my drinking had to do with that I didn't wanna feel, and just trying to get away from, from discomfort in any way that I possibly could. But now, like, being able to actually feel things and actually being able to experience my life, I feel like I'm Actually living my life in a way that I never really was before. I was just trying to get away from it, you know? And, and just that has, has been really amazing. And can be one of the most difficult things, right? Oh, yeah. Because if we are escaping a, a certain thing that we are feeling on a regular basis or that, you know, that comes up, right? It, it can be that like, "Well, how the hell am I gonna do this without alcohol?" That, you know, for me it was like the work stress. It's like, "How am I gonna get through that without a drink? That's what I- that's all I do now. It's my only tool." And, and it's almost like I had to just show myself. I had to, like, take s- take that break. I had to… Which wasn't an easy thing to do. I needed support for that and… But it's like once I saw it, I remember working and being like… I remember one night it was like w- all, we were, had all these deadlines hitting and I was just like, "Why am I not more stressed right now?" I'm like, "Ooh, it's because I'm not drinking." Because the alcohol was j- only adding, you know, fuel to the fire of that stress and making it worse. Yeah. And so, but I think it's like sometimes we have to show ourselves and prove it a, a bit, but I think if we can l- look and listen at other people who are getting through that and, and see that, like, okay, well, you know, they're all saying that it does get better, so if I can just believe that and work towards that and keep going, you know, that can be enough, right? Yeah. In the beginning. Yeah. And- Yeah, emotions are, uh, you know, emotions are, are, are challenging and interesting and, and a lot of people, you know, some people think it's… And you know, I was this way. I was this way. All the, the whole woo woo and all that's all fluffy, you know, like sitting with the emotions and breathing through some, you know, breathing through it. And like, I was that, I was that guy, you know? And then, and then you, and then you change, and that's the beauty of, of our, of our brains and, and the neuroplasticity, you know, that, that, that I'm hoping everybody knows at least a little bit about nowadays, the, the ability to change. But, uh, so would you, would, so would you classify your ability, like from an emotion standpoint, to observe and to, to kind of invite the emotion in? What, how do you think about you being able to kind of, uh, partner up with your emotions might be one way to look at it, rather than pushing them away and escaping. Are, do you have any kind of tools that you use for yourself, whether it's breathing or naming the emotion or- Or going on a walk, or how do you, how do you process the feelings that you have, or even the thinking for that matter, and being okay with those, but understanding that they too, yes, will change? Yeah. There's, there's a couple things. There's a couple things that I do. First of all, I really like, I really like the saying, "The only way out is through." You know, I, I… 'Cause I've identified now, I didn't know this before, I, I thought that I drank because it's this reward and I deserve it and all of this, but now I have it identified so clearly that I drank to avoid feeling. And, you know, that's… So I would always try to push feelings away, push feelings away, and that, you mentioned neuroplasticity, Eric. Um, I'm a, I'm a really visual- Hmm … person and a, and a really visual learner, and so I had this picture of my brain in my, in my head. And I grew up in a really small town, and there were lots of dirt roads around there. And so I have this picture, dirt roads, when they get washed away or they're real muddy for a while, they get the really deep tire tracks in them, and, and the deeper they get, the deeper they get in there. And, and it's so hard to get up the sides of those. And so I picture my brain having these deep, deep ruts in them, that I spent my whole life carving those deep ruts into my brain. And the whole process of giving up alcohol and learning how to feel my feelings and realizing that no feeling lasts forever, and, you know, learning to distract myself with something else, learning how to journal, learning how to do all of these things, was like this slow process of digging myself out of these deep ruts that I have in my brain. And I started to make these new pathways around the deep, deep ruts. And, and I think of it, you know, every once in a while, those ruts are still there. And I, and I actually have a s- a sound that I imagine in my head that, like, I just go, you know, and, and fall right back into those ruts. Because they're still there, and they're still deep, but I've created so many other pathways out of them that I so much more naturally stay on now, you know? And so that's, that's a visualization that, that really helps me. Like, okay, you're, you're back down in the deep ruts. You're sitting in the mud. Now get on one of your other paths. Mm. You know? Get, get on one of these that you know you like being on these other paths better, you know? And, and it's like, yeah, it's better. It's better up there. It's better out of the deep ruts that are in the mud, and, and I know that, you know? So it's just easier to do now the more time I've spent on these other things. Yeah. I, I like that analogy. It be- it, it reminds me of, well, uh, by Carl Jung, the observer, right? So you are the observer of your paths, let's say, right? And you get to create some on your own, too, that are brand new and fresh. But yet you can- because it's clear, you can see where those pitfalls are, those clunks. Yeah. And it's not to say, again, that you won't, like, slide back in there for a second, but, but, but you have it now th- so if you're aware of your thinking and you can kind of observe, being so visual bec- I, I relate to that myself as well, is that now you can kind of like y- well, you can avoid them whenever possible. Because there's, there's probably a feeling associated with that as well without, without- Oh … being, you know- Yeah … when, when you're out of alignment like that. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's that satellite view, you know? Because oftentimes we get so stuck in the weeds and, and everything becomes narrow and emotional and reactive, and it's just kind of like, you know, that's, that's that zooming out so we can actually think about what it is that we're about to do, so the intentionality behind our, our choices and actions. Yeah. Yeah. Was there a practice? Was that nat- did that come just kind of semi-natural for you, is to step out like that, or did you work with somebody to help you get there? Or did that, or was that s- something you had, or have you always been an observer of your own kind of thinking in a way? Oh, no. No. Um, I think I, I spent so much more time in the kind of perspective of if I feel bad right now, things will be bad forever, you know? Mm. That's, I think I've spent most of my life being more like that. I think the process of being, of attending so many meetings, really it was like, like little itty bitty therapies all the time, you know? And, and it's… I got so much out of the meetings, and I would take my journal And, and have, you know, every little gem that I got from a meeting or everything a coach would say that was really meaningful, I would write it down. You know, 'cause, 'cause otherwise I would've forgotten them, you know? And, and I flip through my journals now and, and it's just like, oh, what a great, what a great piece of knowledge that is. And, you know, and so I've amassed all of these little things over this time, like all these little nuggets I've gathered from, from other people and from coaches and, and that's, that's really how I regarded it, is like these little, little microdose, microdose therapy Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a- Yeah … it's a good way to say it. I mean, the, our, our, the, the Reframe communities do have a Carl Rogers kind of like person-centered approach whereby everybody in the community, whether you're a coach or not, is, is, is sh- is seeing everybody in, in an unconditional positive regard is kind of what he says. See the client- Yeah … if you were a therapist in unconditional positive regard, lead with empathy, you know, and, and, and, and see them as, as good people, you know? Yeah. And there's a, and there's a trust that follows that, and then when people show up like you do, that brain just slowly, you know, it's so important to fill it with the right sort of thing, and then over time we have these moments like you've had, and like all of us have had, and people that are watching and listening I hope will, will have for themselves at some point too, just keep showing up because the brain will change, and then all of a sudden you come to realize, like, okay, this is temporary and it'll get better, and it's not, you know, do or die. I don't have to catastrophize everything. Yeah, and it, and it takes time, you know? That's- Yeah … but yeah. It does. And practice, right? And practice, yeah. I mean, I think practice, checking in on our emotions, and I know that Reframe does that now where, you know, we have like, "What's your stress level today? How's your mood? What's your energy?" Mm-hmm. And, and kind of factoring that into other things that you're putting in, but there's apps out there that do it, and, uh, yeah, you talked about woo woo and fluffy, and I'm sitting here looking at my throw pillow on my chair on the other side of my desk here- … that has a, that is a feelings wheel on it. So, you know, just diving in and, like, practicing that I think is the only way that we can, whenever you, you kind of went like this with the blind- you know, putting the blinders on where you're getting n- narrowed in, it's like, but by practicing it in some way regularly, like that's how we, we're like, "Oh, wait, what am I supposed to do here?" Like catch ourselves- Yeah. Yeah … y- you know- Mm-hmm… quicker and quicker over time. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, and thanks for the plug on, I'm always, like, talking about this, you should have a, a journal if you're at a meeting and just, like, write all the things you hear down that- Yeah … that stand out to you because, uh, yeah, what is it? The proverb, ancient proverb, "The faintest ink is better than the best memory." So I- Mm … will always throw that out because- Oh, I'm gonna steal that one. That's good … yeah. I, I mean, I, I'm gonna say, I, I'm gonna throw in Zen proverb or something. I don't know. I can't remember the origin off the top of my head, but, uh, yeah, that's like, yeah, I'm not gonna remember. Like, oh, I'll remember this whenever the next time I have… No, I'm not gonna remember shit, so. Yeah. No. Well, you know, the, it's an important distinction I think because when w- a lot of folks think that journaling is that deep dive into the soul- Yeah And that can be, you know, you can do inner work and shadow work and what have you. I mean, a lot of people love that type of writing. You- Yeah … stream your consciousness, you have prompted writing. And then there's, like, data collection type journaling. Yeah. You know, lean into your curiosities and write down what feels kind of sticky for you. Revisit it every once in a while. You're filling your brain up with really great, you know, strong pieces of information, and, and, and the stickiest of the sticky will, will stay with you and help you change and help you- Yeah see the world through a, through an objective lens, if there ever, if there is such a thing as objective even. Yeah. But nonetheless, I mean, journaling is, it- it's intentional thinking. So important. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And- I got- Go ahead … colors and all sorts of different colored pens- Mm-hmm… that I could write different things in different colors, and then it would be… Yes. Yes. Love it. Yeah. Then it would be visually interesting for me. Yeah. And, like, if I had a quote or something that a coach had said in a meeting that I thought was particularly wonderful, then I would make all these, like, colorful decorations and stars around it and everything so my eye would get drawn there. Um, and I just, you know, it, it helped to make it more fun like that, not just pages and pages of black writing. Mm. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and the negative side too, you know, people p- like, uh, journal in such a way… And, and putting your calendar together too, I find interesting. Like, build a calendar that you actually love to look at. You know, fill that thing up with rewards after two, three hours if you're still in the workforce. After a couple hours of deep flow sty- type, style working, then give yourself a reward at the end. Same thing with journaling. Like, you know, don't, don't neglect, uh, uh, the w- what it is that you need to look at that's challenging, but also, you know, build a jour- maybe you have two of them. Build a journal also that is, you look forward to carrying with you, you're proud of. It's a best friend. Mm-hmm. Speaking my language here. All right. Yeah. And you mentioned, you mentioned nuggets too, so we'll, as we wrap it up, we will talk about our nugget of the week. But is there anything, uh, Gina, that you'd like to share in closing? We, we appreciate, yeah, you coming on, sharing your story, and sharing all this great knowledge with, with us and everyone listening. Um, any- anything that you'd like to share just in parting before we get into our nuggets of the week and then wrap it up? Well, one of, one of the biggest things that I've been kind of grappling with recently is that, you know, I just hit three years, and I'm, I'm not on five meetings every day anymore, you know? And, and I've almost, I've gotten to the point now where the, the not drinking part of it isn't-- Like, that's not hard. That's, that's not the hard part anymore. It's, the part that's still hard is the feeling the uncomfortable things and, and the stuff that I used to avoid and all that kind of stuff. But I've noticed a few times here that- That as I'm getting a little further out, that I'll not go to meetings and not look at my journal for a while, and kinda let some things drop because, you know, I'm busy and not really thinking about alcohol that much. But almost invariably, when I do that, I will find myself sliding a little bit more, a little bit more into kind of the negative feelings, and maybe some more times where I'm thinking of, "Ugh, this is a situation that I would drink in." Not necessarily that I, that I'm considering drinking, but thinking about it a lot more again. And it's, it's really taught me that, that maintenance is still such an important thing. It doesn't take what it used to. Like, I don't have to spend hours and hours and hours on meetings a day, but if I don't do it at all, then things'll backslide. So I've, I've really gotten to like the value of even if I only take out my journal and write a sentence or two, it, it puts me in that mind state. Or if I catch half of a meeting while I'm getting ready for work, it, it sets me up. You know, I don't need to sit on meetings for hours, but if I catch 30 minutes of one even, it, it'll kinda keep the maintenance of that up enough for me that, that if I don't do that, I don't do as well. And so that's- Yeah that's a big, a big, big thing that I've learned. So finding that minimum dosage. Uh- Yeah … minimum, uh, required, uh, amount. I mean, because yeah, it, it is like a natural progression I see a lot and I've felt, and it's like, okay, I don't, you know… I, I burnt out on Quit Lit, but I had to still do, I still had to listen to maybe a podcast or two here or there or- Yeah you know, i- if I wasn't doing one thing- 'cause I just, you know, needed a change up. I still needed to do something to keep me focused. And like you said, that maintenance. And I always think about it as, like, guardrails. Like, what are the, what are my guardrails that keep me when I start to veer off track, and they're-- that's gonna help me bounce back. So that could be a, like a regular therapy appointment or a regular meeting that you attend, or e- and even if it's like you said, like, okay, it's, I'm not gonna be able to catch this whole thing, so I'm not gonna go. No, if you can pop on for five minutes and listen in, you don't have to put your camera on or anything like that, that could be helpful- Mm-hmm just to keep that in front of you. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I think if I can just change my mindset enough, like the guardrails, like you said, it keeps me from veering off course too far. It keeps me, keeps me from- Yeah … falling back into the deep ruts near as much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Thanks for sharing that. Well, we'll end with, uh, you know, the, the what did you learn this week? So this is our little fun little segment. It can be completely off-topic, not sobriety related at all or anything like that, just a little nugget of something that you might have picked up this week and anything that you learned, um- Does anybody wanna go first? I actually have one. I've, I've got one too I just thought of. It's very short. Yeah, no pressure, Gina. It's, usually at this point I, I'm happy that I have one 'cause usually I'm like, "You two go," because I'm still trying to find one in my brain. So no worries. Um, do you have one, Gina- Eric?… or do you want me? All right, I'll go. I'll go. I was reading a meta-analysis set data, data little piece, uh, that… So I'm left-handed and I'm ADHD, and so I, you know, kind of pay attention to this stuff. And if you are left-handed, you are 3.49 times more likely to be ADHD than… Well, left-handed or they called it, uh, both-handedness. So if you have some ambidextria, ambidextrous, uh- Yeah … tendencies to you. Um, yeah, so I thought that was, that's what I learned this week. Wow. It's kind of fascinating. So if you're left-handed or if you have, if you're ambidextrous, you're three and a half times more likely to be AD- ADHD. And ADHD is the, is the number one passed down trait from parent to child, second only to height, which is- Wow … fascinating, right? So it's environmental and it's, yeah, it's passed down, so. Well, this just seems to be- I got that from my dad right there. I know, I know where I got mine from. My dad is, that's my father for sure. Well, this is some cosmic alignment going here before, uh, 'cause even before you started talking, my nugget this week also had to do with ADHD.'Cause, uh- Do tell, do tell. Yeah … I was reading… Well, first of all, I'm a psychiatric nurse practitioner, so I treat people with ADHD and, and that kind of things. But I was just reading an article about that they did this study with children with ADHD, and 70 of the kids in this study had some significant kind of sleep disorder. Yeah. I'm not surprised at all, yeah. And insomnia is the biggest one, but there's also a really high incidence of sleep apnea- Mm-hmm … which I didn't know, and I was really surprised by that. And I was like, I think of sleep apnea as something that, you know, you get when you're older and, and, uh, but yeah, a, a lot of kids with ADHD also have sleep apnea. And then that totally makes sense because constantly interrupted sleep only makes things like ADHD worse, you know? It's, it's just like this- Yeah … vicious cycle. And so that was, that was my thing that I learned just today, actually. Hmm. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, sleep apnea. That, I, I di- I wasn't aware of that one. That one's fascinating. Yeah. I'm definitely gonna be going downst- downstairs, uh, right after this and telling my daughter, uh, that her left-handedness caused her ADHD, even though it also came clearly from me. But yeah, she is, she's, she writes left-handed, but she is, uh, she use, I think she eats with her right hand and she does different things. Yeah. Like she's definitely ambidextrous with some things, but she writes with her left. That's interesting. I'll have to- That's it right there … look at that. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, see. My nugget's just from, I was listening to, this has gotten, this has gotten, this line has gotten me thinking more and more about, like, what I do and what I, you know, talking with people, you know, at work as well as my own stuff that I'm working on. But I was listening to Diary of a CEO podcast- Yeah … and they had James Clear on. I think this was, like, last December or something. And so a client sent this to me, and I started listening to it, and I, one, this one line that James Clear said was basically to- he was talking about identity and all of that, and how, like, you know, habit, habit, uh, what's the, what's his line? True habit change is identity change. That he said, "To want an outcome without the lifestyle needed to get it is just torturing yourself." Ooh. And I was like- Okay … I was like, "Oof, that's good." And that's so true, right? I mean, 'cause it's I, I know, I know early on it's like I wanna, I wanted that outcome of, like, drinking less or whatever, but I wasn't really willing to change anything. Or, you know, I'm looking at things now and I'm talking, I'm looking, I kinda went through this thing. I'm like, "What do I say I, I want? What outcome am I looking for? What lifestyle is kind of needed to get an o- outcomes like that?" So I'm going through this whole thing myself. But yeah, to want an outcome without the lifestyle needed to get it is just torturing yourself. Mm-hmm. Um, so it's like what do I need to change? And it, and again, we don't have to change everything all at once to, to get something, but we need to start working towards that, right? And even identifying the things I'm not, like, willing to change just yet is a good practice, I think, to, to take a look at and see. But yeah, that kinda… He said that. I was out, was out with my headphones on cutting the grass, and I, I kept stopping throughout the whole thing to, like, take notes on my phone. Eventually I got my pocket journal to to write in as I was doing it. Uh, that, that took me two hours instead of one to cut the grass. But I was like, yeah, when that came on, I'm like, "All right, let's rewind. What, what was that again? I'm writing this shit down." Yeah.'Cause that's- Yeah, that's good … I think an important, um, something to think about, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well- Yeah, that's that zoom out, too. That's that- Yeah … that's that manifest, that's that manifesting before you are. You know, if you- Yeah … if you can see, if you can see a year down line, downstream what it is and who it is that you're gonna become and what, what, what, what behaviors and what people and what places your, that, that future you is going, those habits, you know, fall in line to that. Once they're aligned as to who it is, I mean, changing your clothes, you know, changing how it is that you dress. It could be small, tiny little things, you know? Yeah. Yep, definitely. Yeah, that's a good one, Kevin. Well, yeah. Thanks, Gina. Thanks, Eric. It's been great. Um, yeah, any, any, any parting words that before we… I, I can't think if I'm missing anything about wrapping up here before I- Well … uh, take us out. I do, I have, I have one more little, little, little thing- Okay that I'll, that I'll talk about. It just, just to illustrate that how important one tiny moment of decision or one tiny moment of distraction can be, has to do with, I actually, I actually told you this story when we met in person, Kevin. Um, there was a time about three weeks into my alcohol-free time where my husband was out of town, kids were gone, nobody was in the house. Perfect prime time for me to drink. I mean, I, I would've… It… That's a time where I would've just gone nuts. Like, it was almost, it was ridiculous how much alcohol I would try to get into myself in a situation like that. But it was about three weeks in, that was my situation. I had… That I was gonna drink. I had, I went and got my car keys. I was like, "I'm going to the store." You know, whatever. This is too hard. And I actually had my car keys in my hand, and I was like, "Why don't I look at Reframe and see if there's a meeting right now? Well, I guess. I guess I will." And I got on Reframe, and I had no idea, 'cause it wasn't a normal time that I would go to meetings, and there was a Kevin, a Kevin meeting on, and it was, it was like a f-

4: 1:23:01

00 one for me or something like that. It was a time that I never went. And that was one moment where, like, I had decided to drink. I was, I was gonna do it. And just that bit of distraction, that sitting through the rest of the meeting, the, you know, absorbing the meeting and getting into what was being talked about, that was enough to change that decision for me. And I, I have no doubt that that early on, when I was only three weeks into it, if I had drank, I, I probably would've gotten right back into it. I mean, I don't know what would've happened after that. But, just, just to illustrate, you know, of do something to distract yourself. Do, you know, just reach for something in that moment, because without that distraction, I'm not sure what would've happened, you know? I'm- Yeah … and I'm so thankful for little things like that. Goosebumps again. I, I know, and I'm k- sitting here, I feel like, 'cause in Zoom meetings, I, I feel the need to, like, put a heart up for it- … and I can't on this platform. But no, that's… And be- yeah, I love that. Thanks for sharing that. And yeah, uh, but that, not to keep harping on this, but that came because you were going to them. Like, you were practicing that. That was part of it, so it was like that thought that even pulling out your phone, uh, was a, was an oppor- was a possibility- Yeah … was because you were doing that consistently already and, yeah, that's- Yep … that's awesome. I had been practicing, practicing- Yeah … for that moment, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. It's a good nugget, too, to end with here. Yeah, that is a good one. That's why I'm being so quiet. Yeah. Thanks, Gina. Uh- Welcome. Yeah. It's been great. Appreciate this. And thank you all for listening to another episode of the Reframeable podcast, brought to you by the Reframe app. Uh, Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. I wanna thank you again for listening, and be sure to come back for another episode. Have a great day.