Shame, Science, and Second Chances: Breaking the Cycle of Trauma & Drinking

Join Coach Kevin and Coach Frank Spinelli — physician, trauma-informed coach, and Reframer — as Frank opens up about the journey that brought him to Reframe: a childhood trauma buried for decades, a pandemic that unraveled the life he'd carefully rebuilt, and the moment he woke up in his basement not remembering how he'd gotten there. Frank doesn't hold back and what comes through is a story about shame, denial, and what it actually means to want better for yourself.
The conversation digs into:

- Why knowing better and doing better are two completely different things
- How shame works — and what happens when you stop trying to outrun it
- The difference between quitting drinking and actually doing the work
- Why labeling yourself an alcoholic might be getting in your way
- What "transfer addiction" looks like and how to spot it in yourself
- The non-binary approach to recovery that's changing how a new generation thinks about alcohol

The Reframeable podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the #1 app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you.

If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. If you have a topic you'd like us to cover on the podcast, send an email to podcast@reframeapp.com or, if you're on the Reframe app, give it a shake and let us know what you want to hear.

Transcript

​[00:00:00] 

Welcome everyone to another episode of the Reframeable podcast, the podcast that brings you people's stories and ideas about how we can work to reframe our relationship not just with alcohol, but with stress, anxiety, relationships, enjoyment, and so much more. Because changing our relationship with alcohol is about so much more than changing the contents of our glass.

This podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. My name is Kevin Bellak. I'm a certified professional recovery coach and the head of coaching at the Reframe app.

And hi everybody, I'm Coach Frank, and I'm also a health coach and a trauma-informed coach, and I'm trying to be well-behaved because Kevin's my boss[00:01:00] 

Uh, no pressure No pressure at all. I know, as I just like screwed up a couple times there. I just threw you off track all of a sudden. Well, uh, yeah, I, I always, uh, say I have to slow down as I s- before I start to read the intro because I always-- If I go too fast, my normal, uh, voice can tend to... Reframable Podcast it just kind of- It'll trip you up.

Yeah ... pushes it all together. The Refram able Podcast. It sounded good to me. Yeah. Something in my brain was like, "Nope, do it again." That's the nice thing. We can- Of course ... we can always cut that part out. We'll leave this in, but, uh, so today, uh, we're gonna be talking with Frank and hearing a little bit of his story, whatever he'd like to share with us.

And, uh, yeah, we'll, we'll go with, uh-- We'll just jump into that whenever you're ready. But, uh, how are you doing today? We'll just start there. I'm doing good. You know, I, I was actually in Germany last week. Yeah. I was in Munich. I had to go [00:02:00] to a conference, and you know, a lot of what I do also in addition to reframing and coaching and all those ac-activities, which is growing by the minute, which is exciting, is I also do patient-focused research, and currently it's primarily in COVID, if you can believe it or not.

I did a very large scale-- I led a very large scale survey in 10 countries and trying to gain people's perspectives on COVID in various places like Europe, the United States, and Asia. And the results have been really intriguing, and so you submit them to congresses, and there is a very big, uh, infectious disease conference, and it was held this year in Munich, and I got not one, but two abstracts, so I had to go and present, which was really...

It's interesting because I don't know if you remember, but the pandemic to me is still not over because the travel ban has lifted, but companies aren't really excited about sending you out there. But this year, for some reason, it feels like we're back in the travel mode. [00:03:00] So I haven't been on a plane to Europe in a very long time, and it just felt really odd in a way, but exciting.

And then you, of course, you're in Europe, and by the way, I mean, I went on a walking tour of Munich, and they said you have to know three things about living in Munich. One is people love Jesus, people love pork, and people drink beer. Did you know the average person drinks one point five liters of beer a day, and the bars open at nine thirty AM, and there is a breakfast beer, and then in the summer it goes to three liters a day.

And I believe, and I could be wrong, that you can drink from twelve to sixteen under supervision, and then after sixteen you can attend Oktoberfest, um, without Like a [00:04:00] guardian or a parent- Okay ... or whatever. So, so it, it was interesting to be around that environment talking about reframe and, you know, trying to develop good habits because beer is so pervasive.

I mean, Kevin, I am- Yeah ... I could not believe it. I mean, there are beer gardens, and it was really fascinating. I mean, most restaurants are geared towards beer, and we were with my, um, my boss, who was this really chic woman. I mean, she's from Argentina, but she lives in the United Kingdom, and she's there in this beautiful outfit.

And we sit down, and we're ordering food, and I'm not joking, the server says, "What would you like to drink?" Uh, you know, and she said, "M- you know, I'll have water." And he literally went like this, "What?" Like, because she didn't order beer. Yeah. And it was just, you know, it's just the cultural thing. So yeah, it was really fascinating on many levels.

Wow. Traveling again, going to Europe, presenting, but also being around alcohol. And you know, it's one of the things that I think you and I know we have to [00:05:00] talk about at, at our community meetings is that, you know, we could say trigger warning all we want. We could say activating. Alcohol is around us, and we have- Yeah

to learn to live- Yeah ... with it, not ignore it. Yeah, I mean, there you know, we can do a lot to avoid situations- Yeah, exactly ... that maybe focus on that or whatever. Uh, you know, there's all kinds of things that could set us off or that, you know, just cue up those thoughts. So I could be-- I always use the one, I could be driving down, you know, now I have the electronic, like, billboards on the side of th- the roads and highways.

I could be driving down the highway, and a billboard comes on with something I used to drink or whatever, and I could be like- Yeah ... oh, immediately go there Let alone when everybody, I had to do all the math here. I'm like, "Okay, 1.5 liters." I'm like, "What is that?" A... So 50 ounces, about four, four, let's, four 12-ounce beers, obviously.

And, and so- Well, okay. I didn't even think of that but- ... the average person's, the average person- [00:06:00] A day. A day. Wow. A day. Yeah. Uh, a- and you know, it was actually really... And then not only that, I mean, you know, when you're flying and pushing alcohol on you. Like, "Would you like another drink? Would you like a drink?

Would you like..." Yeah. And I'm like, "I'm good." You know? It's like- Yeah ... so you really, it really is a test of your willpower as well. Plus, you know, I've just gotten to this point where I'm like, it's just, you know, you could see people, like, the travel is tough enough. Could you imagine being traveling and bombed, you know?

And there are- Yeah ... people like that. Yeah. I mean, I've, I've done it- ... once or twice. Not all the, not a lot. I didn't travel too much for work or anything like that, but- Yeah, yeah ... I could think of one or two times when there was some significant delays that kind of derailed my, any plans I might've had, and that's when I was drinking, not even caring about it.

Yeah. That's, uh- A lot of reframers say that airports are still a huge activator for them. Yeah. Like the whole process of ... And, and it's true. It's like walking into [00:07:00] a casino. There's bars. Yeah. Exactly. You know? It's- It's the only place that it's okay to drink at any time of day. Yeah, right. Exactly. And you know, and if you're lucky enough to belong to a lounge, there's free drinks there.

So it is, it is really, um, you know, we talk about this topic often on community meetings is how do you navigate not only going on vacation, but the travel, the travel itself. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, yeah, that's, um... Any suggestions from this trip since it's fresh before we jump in? About how to avoid? You know what?

I, I, I- Like what did you focus on? I think it's always your plan. You have to go in with a plan, uh, whether you're moderating or just wanting to be alcohol-free. It's a plan. I, I knew, and this is gonna sound really crazy, but I didn't... You know, it was six days. That's a lot of trip for me, uh, leaving home, being in a hotel.

And don't get me wrong, it, it was work. You know, it's not like going to Europe. Yeah. [00:08:00] I took a night flight, landed, and went straight to an all-day meeting. So I knew in my mind I had to sleep on that flight. I had to. So I imagined the whole thing. You're gonna be... I-- You need to go to sleep. You need to feel fresh.

You need to wake up. It's gonna be a time change. And once I did that, once I knew the whole arc of that 24 hours, there's not a doubt in my mind. Like, I knew what I had to do. There's no... I wasn't even open to the temptation of it because I was like, "Listen, you've got to be, you've gotta be on. You're presenting.

You're on." So when you-- When I, when I, even when I talk to clients, it's a matter of just envisioning what success looks like. How do I get myself there? What, what does every step look like? And, and honestly, it is work. I mean, when we say I, I did the work, those-- this is what we mean. You actually put in the work.

You imagine what-- You futurize or you imagine what success would look like, and then you [00:09:00] execute it to the best of your ability. And then every day is also a challenge because you're going to receptions and other activities where there's a lot of liquor. Yeah. And you just have to know in your mind, this is-- I was reminding myself over and over again, this is work.

I need to be on top of things. You know, my boss is here. You know, certain things like that. So that's what really helped, I think, for me. Yeah. Yeah, and I can hear people now. But then I was so anxious about that, like you're like, "Okay, you have to sleep. You have to sleep. You have to be ready for tomorrow," and then what happens if you don't?

And then I could see people It'll be like, I have-- I, I need to have a drink now because I'm-- need to get that sleep. Yeah. But, you know, it's like that's a dangerous game to start playing then too, because- Of course ... 'cause if that doesn't work right away and is, you know, it's gonna make things that- Yeah, you start future tripping all the bad things that could happen.

But, you know, I'm good about lists. I'm good about, like, writing out. And then, you know, the other thing I did, um, and this is another tip that I [00:10:00] think is really good, I wrote down all the things I gained. Like, I landed. I didn't forget anything on the plane. Yeah. Have you done that? You know, because I was drunk, you know.

Or I got there, I got to my hotel, I unpacked. I was, I was ahead of my schedule 'cause I felt really good about everything I had achieved. So reminding myself, you know, "This is good. You not only succeeded, but you got all these benefits you didn't even know you were gonna get," which was I ate breakfast, I was ready, I was clear.

I was, I was still tired, but I wasn't- Yeah ... I wasn't wrecked. Yeah. Uh, well, good. Glad that was, uh, hopefully a good experience and so COVID's not over. Okay. I was-- Yeah, I was thinking about that of like, you know, what, what's the cutoff point? Like, what, at what point does it, uh- Yeah ... does it stop or is it just perpetual now?

But, uh- It's gonna be, it's gonna be like the flu. It's here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You'll have different waves and, [00:11:00] you know, hopefully, you know, we won't have it like we did in 2020, which is good. But yeah. Yeah. Wasn't good for us then, but... No. Yeah, so well, why don't you... Where, where would you like to jump in? How do you wanna, how do you wanna start this?

Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, I guess we could talk about maybe how I joined Reframe. I don't know. Would that be- Yeah ... or even before that? Yeah. Well, I mean, my background- You can go as far back as you'd like, but, uh, but yeah, it's joining Reframe. Well, I won't go back to infancy, but- Yeah ... but, uh, you know, I'm a physician by training.

A lot of-- I'm based out of New York, and that's where I practiced for many years, and I loved it, and I was primarily working in the virology space, so HIV, hepatitis, not... And then later came COVID. And I was a full-time physician, and I loved life. And I started writing articles, and that eventually led to a book, and I wrote a book [00:12:00] on gay men's health, and that led to a radio show on SiriusXM.

And I was a, I wasn't a host, but I would come on once a month and answer questions, and it was really a lot of fun. And that led to my appearance as a HIV expert in certain documentaries, which was also really great. So I had a really great career working in as a physician but also as an expert. Mm-hmm.

And something happened. I was on tour, uh, for the book, and I met some folks that knew me when I was a kid, and we were growing up together in Staten Island as Boy Scouts, and, uh, I had had a very traumatic experience in Boy Scouts. And because of that recollection of it, it reminded me of that. And when anybody has ever had a trauma- You forget, you know?

You, you get out of it and [00:13:00] you don't remember it every day unless it's really fresh. So I hadn't remembered what happened to me when I was 11 to 13 for a very long time, and that, that night I did remember. And, you know, I don't know, this is like probably 2010. Okay. So, you know- I was gonna ask, yeah ... we didn't, we didn't have ChatGPT yet.

Google was working, you know. You know, it's still in its infancy, but I looked up the Scoutmaster who had molested me, and I found something really horrifying. I found out that the year after I told the Boy Scouts of America and my parents, and after my parents were shamed into keeping it a secret, he adopted a boy, he wrote a book, and he was on the Today Show where they, um...

And he was also father of the year. And so that began a very difficult period in my life where I hunted him down and I worked [00:14:00] with the police and wore a wiretap. The reason why we did this is because he hadn't only adopted one boy, he adopted 15, and they all had special needs, and three were still living with him.

And I called him, you know, I called him a few times with the police, but I called him once on my own and of course he didn't remember me, and I'll never forget. I was working with an amazing therapist at the time who was helping me with trauma, and she said to me, "Child molesters see children like a alcoholic sees a glass of wine.

You're just another glass of Merlot. He doesn't know who you are. You're not a person to him," which made a lot of sense. Yeah. It, it hurt- Yeah ... but it made a lot of sense. Lo and behold, we, we brought him to justice. I mean, we, we, uh... He got... He died within a year. You have to remember, I, I didn't tell you this, he was not only the Scoutmaster, he was a highly decorated police officer.

That's what added [00:15:00] layer, that, all this complexity. So I don't know what, what killed him in that, in that year. I, I'm assuming he may have been murdered. I don't know. But the point is, it ended. And like so many people, I had done all the work in therapy for years. I wrote a book- Yeah ... about my experience. It was a memoir, and it got published in '13.

And I felt I'm good. And I was really happy. I was also married by this time. I was successful in my work, and I had done that for many years. And so imagine 2013, now 2020, uh, the pandemic hits, so now we're going full circle. Yeah. And I think what the pandemic did to all of us, was it threw us in a situation we weren't prepared.

And fortunately, some people had family, some people were isolated. For me, uh, I felt like I was detached from a lot [00:16:00] of the pillars that were holding me together. And as a person who experienced trauma, that trauma of COVID was very unsettling. And so I think... Well, not I think. I reached for alcohol, and I drank like millions of other people.

And I, you know, one of the things that's really funny is that how available was alcohol to us? Yeah. I mean- It was, uh... What is, uh... It was a- Es- essential ... essential, yeah. I was looking for that word. Yeah. We- It's essential. Yeah ... they did, they didn't close it. In fact, so, you know, all the statistics show that the alcohol went skyrocketing, the use of it.

Yeah. And, um, at the same time, I am also, uh, one of the lead witnesses for this, uh, lawsuit, class action suit against the Boy Scouts of America, which is 90,000 survivors. And we actually won. It was probably one of the largest settlements [00:17:00] in the history. And again, great, I'm s- I'm feeling so great about it, but something happened, and this is what my tipping point was.

We h- were made to ask to fill out a, I believe it was a 47-page questionnaire about the abuse, and it had to be in very specific details. And this just... I think I, uh... Well, I didn't... I keep saying think 'cause that's my mechanism of denial. Yeah. I drank myself silly to the point where I don't remember filling it out.

And the next morning I woke up in the, you know, in the basement with my computer. It was completed. I didn't remember anything. And I reread what I wrote 'cause I wanted to make sure I did it accurately, and I did. But the idea that I filled out a survey about abuse while blackout drunk really bothered me.

And I remembered I joined Reframe, and I loved the whole concept [00:18:00] of it, but I did what I call the toe in the water. Okay. You know? You're just kinda joining Reframe, and you do- Yeah ... the tasks and, you know, I'm kinda doing it because I'm in denial because I'm a doctor and I shouldn't have to do this, and I shouldn't be-- I should know better.

And so that went on for a little while. And, you know, you know, again, I, I, I feel it's important for a lot of Reframers to understand when we talk about rock bottom, I don't think you need-- I think it's also, like, it's not a one-size-fits-all. It doesn't have to be this calamitous disaster that happened. And fortunately, fortunately for me, that didn't happen.

I just think when the really turning point was I looked in the mirror one day and I was like, "Who are you?" And you had so much- expectations for yourself, and you want so much more for your life, and you're lying to people, and you're hiding your drinking, and you're [00:19:00] pretending, and you're blaming it on this victimhood of being, uh, you know, molested.

And, and valid at a point, but I just said, "I can't do this." And I remember I restarted Reframe. I, I didn't, I didn't delete the app, but I really engaged, and I remember I started the meetings, and I think the meetings were a game changer. And by this time, I had already been a coach for years as well, but it really clicked for me.

I've been doing that ever since, and I have to tell you, um, one of the things that I was really focused on during the pandemic, from the period of '20 to '22 and then beyond, was I feel such shame about what I've done, and the shame is so pervasive, and it is something that everyone talks about over and over again.

I have interviewed hundreds of people [00:20:00] who had been molested or who had been... who broke up with their husband and they didn't know anything about his secret life, or they lost their job, or... It's always comes back to shame. And I thought to myself, I was really focusing on books about shame, and they all sort of touch on the same thing.

But again, it was what if you could look within yourself at what the shame is really telling you instead of trying to get past it or move on or, you know. Like, the shame doesn't go away. It just doesn't, and I'm sorry to tell you that. Yeah. I wish I had something more inspirational. But what if you could turn it into something that's guiding you towards something?

And I think a lot of what we do at Reframe is focused on non-judgment, recognizing, observing, mapping, all of the things, and I developed a framework called the COMPASS framework. And, um, I've been applying it for years now, [00:21:00] and I... Again, a- another part of it was a lot of people had said to me, "Did you think you'd ever write a follow-up to your memoir?"

And I'll be honest with you, Kevin, I had no interest in writing a follow-up memoir. Okay. I think a memoir about child molestation is also tough. It's, it's, it's a tough read some people can manage. Some people are deterred by it. But you know what else, Kevin, which is really creepy, and I'll share it with you is you get pedophiles who read it like porn.

So I was very cautious about how much I described in my memoir about being molested. I didn't want it, didn't wanna contribute to this- Yeah ... conversation where I'm making people get off on my book. So the idea of doing that again was just too much. But I was interested in writing about the compass framework and- Mm-hmm

what led me to it. So the, the [00:22:00] new book that I've written is sort of a hybrid. It's sort of, it's called Narrative Nonfiction, where you tell your story, basically what I've told you, that led- Yeah ... to this point, and then how I apply what I learned. You know, reframe, I think- I think. I keep saying that. We Frame, I know- I do the same thing

has, has helped me so substantially because I think it f- it's just based in science. It's, it's- Yeah ... based in this idea that there is more than just this one way of approaching sobriety or recovery or mindfully moderating. A lot of people really appreciate, and what we hear more and more, is that Gen Z-ers, they want this non-binary attitude about what could this look like for me.

And I think when people feel there's choices or they feel that they have agency, they think, "Oh, this isn't a moral failing on my part." You know? "I actually have a say in this, and I can actually do something about it." And so that's [00:23:00] what I like. I like that. I like working with people who see what you said in the introduction.

This isn't about your glass. This is about your life, and what more do you want out of it? So. Yeah. Yeah, 'cause that's just having that non-binary approach, right? 'Cause I mean, I've shared that, I sh- just shared on a meeting yesterday for kind of like a speaker share type of thing, but some of my, what led me up until, up to stopping drinking, which never thought, you know, that wasn't the plan.

But along the way it was like, well, there's AA or I could just keep drinking. Those are like the only two options that I- Yeah ... felt they were. And it's like, but AA was like, I saw it as abstinence, right? So it's like, well, that's, it's not like I'm never gonna drink again. I just wanna- ... I just need to cut, I just need to cut back, right?

I just need to... And so I feel like I got, I got stuck for a lot longer without doing anything because there was only one option- One more ... that I [00:24:00] thought- Yeah ... was there, right? And now more and more there's, there, the, you know, obviously now the internet and social media and all that, there's, you know, a lot of different avenues that people can go down.

But yeah, having that agency to understand and, and, you know, decide for yourself like, well, is, can I do this? Can I try this and see how that works? If no, like, well, what about this? And, you know- Right ... keep working at it. Absolutely, and, you know, again, if AA works for you, good for you. Yeah. Good. Use it. I just think there's also a bit of like, it's, it feels a little like sometimes it's antiquated.

Like you have to do it this way. It is a stepwise thing, you know? There is a dogma attached to it and that turns people off. Okay, great, and then like you, what are my other options? Well, do it on your own, willpower. You know, just suck it up and just do it. And I think what I hear more and more is that [00:25:00] people just appreciate evidence.

They understand that, you know, we, we have to pivot. You know what's so funny? Before we had the pandemic- You went to a place for AA. You went to some basement of a church. And, you know, no, no shade to the church, you know? But you went somewhere. And then when we didn't have that, became, everybody became a Zoom or a Teams expert.

You know, you need to constantly pivot. People are changing, and certainly you're younger than me, but, like, the generation after us doesn't drink like your generation, certainly doesn't wanna drink like my generation or my parents or my grandparents. You know, like, we're no longer living in the Mad Men world.

And even though drinking was very common, and a lot of my clients who are in their 50s or 60s will tell me, "You know, there was a pitcher of martinis that my father made every afternoon." I mean, drinking culture was a lot different. [00:26:00] So I think, I think attaching it to steps and some higher being works, but I think we also have to pivot more and more with the times that we are living in, and that's why I believe more and more, like, Reframe found their niche.

They're very solid with their science, and that's certainly what drew me. And we have so many healthcare providers, um, who are a part of the Reframe community who love that piece about it. Like, okay, this I can wrap my head around. There's science. I get the dopamine. I mean, you know- Yeah ... I was watching this, I was watching, um, this Netflix series, I don't know.

It was called Beef. I don't know if you catch the, the second season. It's ... Why does that sound familiar? I'll have to look at that. Well, the fir- the first one was amazing. I just started the second one. And the, the guy has an addiction, and so he listens to, I don't know if ... They're, they're not podcasts. I think he listens to meditation, and all I kept hearing [00:27:00] was, "You're, you're waiting for the dopamine burst," you know?

And it all of, it was all the neuroscience that we talk about, and I thought, how funny has this all of a sudden become, like, just part of our lexicon of what we talk about? Like, everyone knows that this is a dopamine hit, that we're just feeding this addiction to dopamine, and that we're dysregulated, and so that we can't, we can't do anything about it unless we jump off this merry-go-round and stop this loop.

So I real- that's why I felt when I first joined, I hadn't really immersed myself in it. Plus, I was also in, in a lot of denial, like a lot of people. I mean, I- Yeah ... I didn't think I had a problem. And, you know, and that's because I was looking at my history. I was like, I grew up. We had wine. My parents had wine Every day.

I mean, my mother still does. You know, they drank every day. And so I didn't even drink every day, but it was something about the pandemic that just pushed [00:28:00] me over the edge. You know, I, uh, for better or for worse, it coincided with that Boy Scout survey, which really just shook me. And I'm very fortunate that I was able to really reintroduce myself into the Reframe world.

Like, I could really understand what my choices were, and I think it, it really came down to choices, really having choices. Choices with how you went about- Yeah ... making this change? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think once you tell me no, I get very, like, "No, I'm not doing that." So it was the i- well, what do you want?

The idea that you were picking are you on the AF track or the Mindful... Like, it seemed so foreign to me. Yeah. I was like, "Really? Some people drink?" You know, and I think sometimes what I like most, I don't know about you, I like the mixed meetings most. I like them when they're all there because it's sort of like this is the real world.

Yeah. There are people that drink. Yeah. You have to get [00:29:00] used to it. Yeah. You can't be saying, "Oh, I need a, I have a trigger warning." You know, I'm sorry, you can't do that. If you watch TV, it's, they're drinking, they're smoking, all of those things. So I really, I really feel like even now as a coach- After all this time, I still learn things every day where you're like, "Wow, you just blew my mind."

'Cause the, because I think that's one of the most important things is that there are people that are very vocal and they talk about their journey. I mean, I'm doing it here because, you know, you're interviewing me. I don't typically talk a lot about myself. My, my coaching style is, I think it's important that I talk about, a bit about myself.

I like the idea, and I was taught this a long time ago, where, you know, the coach or the therapist or the, the person is sort of a mirror to the client or the person that you're talking to. Like, it's good that they see you, but it's also good when they project onto you. And I always think [00:30:00] to myself, things are going well when my client gets mad at me once, you know?

'Cause that means they're comfortable enough to just be like- Yeah ... "You know, I don't like that." Yeah. And I'm like, "Great. Great." And I'm not great that you're mad at me, but great that you can say you're mad at me or you didn't like something, and I think those are the breakthroughs I look for in people. And, you know, the, it's a tricky, it's a tricky thing what we do.

It really is. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've met some incredible coaches, but at the same time, I don't take for granted every day how tough it is. Well, because I mean, it's so, yes, it's, you know- Did I just complain? No, I don't think so. Uh, uh, at least I didn't see it like that. The, uh, you know, we're talking about alcohol, right?

Yeah. And but we're not. I think that's the- Yeah ... that's the trickiest part is like, is first I think sometimes the trickiest part is getting people to see that, right? And to see like, well, it's not, it's not about, like we said in the [00:31:00] beginning, it's not about alcohol, right? It's not about the contents of your glass.

Yes, that is the overarching issue driving this, but it's why am I reaching for that glass? Why am I reaching for that drink? And that's, you know, there's a million different infinite number of reasons w- you know, across everybody, and we can't just, we can't, you, you can't just... You have to give yourself time.

You can't just solve it. Right. So like, like when you came on Reframe, you tried it. Yeah. Oh, I like this, but it sounds like it maybe fizzled out a little bit. Yeah. It did. To, I don't know if that's the proper word that you would use, but, or the same word that you would use, but, you know, we hear that all the time.

Like I ask, if I ask someone like, "Oh, how long have you been on Reframe?" It's always like, "Well, I downloaded it-" "... you know, back in '22." And then that's why I love the fact that w- it's an app, and like you mentioned about the, how things changed from in-person to virtual. That was one of the reasons why I went with- [00:32:00] It was easy.

I, I, I'm lazy. I always say that I'm lazy and I just need to do things as simple as possible, otherwise it won't last. But like going to an AA meeting, first of all, walking into an AA meeting blind with nobody-- Like if I knew somebody, fine. Like if they were like, "Oh, hey, why don't you come with me?" If, if they told me that, uh, I'd be like, "Sure."

Uh, but going to, uh, going in there cold, going into having to go to a therapist office every week or month or whatever. No. That's why I was like, I signed up for BetterHelp. I went online, virtual. I'm like, if this doesn't work out, I can just cancel. Um, and seven years later, I'm talking to Nicky DeMaro. Uh, you know, so it's, it's like, it's how can we-- One of the reasons why I came on full time and I changed my career was because, A, it was cut back and quit, so people had an option.

People had an entry point [00:33:00] if they were like, "Well, I'm not gonna, I don't wanna give up drinking forever." This is an entry point to explore how it's showing up for you. And two, it's in your pocket. It goes with you. I think you're absolutely right. I mean, it is an entry point where-- 'cause you're not going in there saying, "By the way, before you come in, you have to agree never to drink again.

You have to agree to..." Like, it's like too much. So now you're saying, "Listen, we have choices here. So you wanna not drink? Let's just talk about what, what's going on with you right now." And I think that is the key. You're right. It's, it's not so much about the alcohol, but it's you have to get there. You know, you're, you're drinking as a reason.

It's the vehicle that's making-- You're drinking as the vehicle to make you avoid what there's something else there that you don't want to address. Yeah. And I think for a lot of people, that's very hard. And, you know, for the clients that I see with Reframe, it's always the discussions are about alcohol initially, and then all of a sudden we never talk [00:34:00] about alcohol.

Like, I w- I mean, I'll ask, I'll check in, I'll be like, "How are you doing?" But we're not talking about alcohol anymore. We're talking about goals. What do we wanna do? What, where do I see myself? You know, or relationships with their family, their loved ones, friends. You know, it's, it, it invariably it's about something much deeper rooted.

And once you get past that, you realize, and it's tough. These are tough conversations as well because, you know, people are really becoming vulnerable and they're talking to you about their- secrets that they might not have ever vocalized to anyone, you know, that's, that's, that's intense. Yeah. Well, like you mentioned too, you know, being, being a doctor, being a coach, you know, you, you knew, you know all the things.

Like- Yeah. I know better ... uh, yeah. It's like you don't know all the things, but you [00:35:00] know, uh, what alcohol is doing, uh, more than the average person, let's say. I'll put it that way. Um, and It sounded like, and you can correct me here, that that made it, like, harder for you to- Worse, yeah ... adjust it because- A lot worse

well, A, there's shame- Yeah ... or guilt, whichever m- it might rise to. But, you know, related to that, like, oh, I sh- I, I know what to do here, but knowing and doing are two different things. So, you know, how do you-- what would you tell with somebody who's like, "I, I can do this on my own. I'm gonna keep trying to do this on my own because I know, I know what's wrong"?

Yeah. You-- I think you're hitting on something. Like, it's, there's a difference between knowing and doing, and when you're in the thick of it, you know it's wrong. Like, you, every-- I have not met one person at Reframe who thought, "My life was great. I don't know what happened. I just joined Reframe." Like, you know.

What's that Jelly Roll [00:36:00] song? Nobody, nobody enters the room at a winning streak- At a winning streak, yeah ... or something. Yeah. Like, you know something is wrong, and so the questions you need to ask, let's say, for everybody who's not part of the Reframe community that's listening to this, if you suspect something is wrong, if you are not happy, that is a big signal for you.

And so I always thought when I was-- before Reframe, I was thinking to myself, "It has to stop. This isn't good. I don't like where I am in my life." I actually started to create lists, and I would say, "What did I want out of my life? Where did I think I would be, and where am I?" And th- clearly, there is a misalignment.

So we talk about core values, uh, a lot, especially, like, in my groups as well. What-- how would you describe yourself? Okay, I-- it's easy. I, I'm a guy. I, I'm married. I'm a physician. Easy. Three, top three. What are my core [00:37:00] values? And those change every once in a while. And are they aligned? Like, do you see yourself living your core values?

And if you don't, if you think this isn't good, then you probably need help, no matter if you're a, a doctor or an astronaut or, you know, a teacher. It doesn't matter because addiction is one of those things that it's the equalizer. It makes us all the same. It really does. This is a neurobiological, physiological mechanism of action that happens to people.

And yeah, there are people that don't have this problem. Well, there are people that don't get cancer, you know? It, it's just, what can you do? And I think what's more important is to not ask yourself why I'm like this, but why I continue to be like this. Like, why don't I want better? And, and for y- for me, I just had this drive to say, "I want better.

I wanna be happier. I wanna be healthier." I w- I just wanna experience life to the [00:38:00] fullest and not have it tethered to this drink, which in the end isn't serving me at all. I've never met one person who is part of the Reframe family who has gotten to a point where they were very happy with their relationship with alcohol, thought, "Yeah, you know what?

I could go back to where I was and not be so upset." No, they all feel the same way. Once I closed that door, I felt great. I felt different. Yeah, and 'cause, uh, I mean, it shows, I mean, 1.5 liters per person on average in Germany, uh, you, that you threw out earlier, you know, that's average. So obviously, there are people who are gonna drink less than that.

Obviously, there are people who are gonna drink a lot more than that. But, you know, h- I would say you don't have to be like, "Okay, I'm drinking three liters a day to have a problem." You could be drinking 1.5 liters. You could be drinking- Absolutely ... one drink a, a week, or, you know, I'll just keep it at, on the low end, uh, and still have an issue with it, right?

Because it [00:39:00] impacts you in a certain way, and I think that's the most important thing that, uh- People don't realize or we, uh, I never, I never thought of before. It was I had a problem or I didn't, and it's like, no, everybody who drinks, you know, on a long enough timeline, at some point is gonna have a problem with it, whether they are admitting it outright or not.

Because, you know, how many times have we woken up after, even when I was in my early 20s, being like, "I'm never drinking again," right? Yeah, of course. And, you know, you go right back to it, but forget it. Who cares about the... I hate the, I hate the prob- oh, d- oh, do you think you have a problem? I'm like, I hate that question.

I hate that, you know, "Did you think you were an alcoholic?" I, no, it doesn't mat- that's not a good question to ask. It's like how it wasn't impacting me well, let's say that. And yeah. I, you know, I think you're right. I, well, not that I think you're right, you are right. Uh, one of the other significant things is you [00:40:00] brought up that's important to underscore, it's, you know, you could drink a, a liter and a half and not have a problem, or you could drink a glass and it'd be a problem.

I think it's all subjective. It's really, it's personalized. I like to go back to why are you drinking? I'm depressed. I am lonely. I can't tell anybo- You know, when, when, when folks are mindfully moderating after a period of sobriety and they wanna try to incorporate alcohol into their lives, I said, "Okay, good.

We're gonna talk about this and let's see how you do it." And I, I recently had a client who said, "You know, I have this two drink minimum maximum and, you know, I had a family member visiting. We were having a good time, and I drank over that." And I said, "Yeah, you see the difference though? Typically, you drank because you were alone.

You drank to be secretive, and here you drank with your sister and it was you were having a good time." I think there's a different context there. Now, am I [00:41:00] celebrating it? No. She went over what her- Yeah ... has been her maximum and she is not happy with herself. But she also, I think the rationale for why she chose.

I always go back to, what is your intention? What do you want? I mean, did you choose to drink more or did you just say to yourself when you wake up the next morning, "Oh, I don't know how that happened. I don't know how I got..." You know, there are different contexts where you have to look back on what choices you made that led to this, uh, and then say to yourself, "Okay, where, where did I go-- where did I misalign myself with what my core values are?

Where did I stray?" And I think you're absolutely right. It's not, do you have a problem? Are you an alcoholic? Yeah, these are all labels. Yeah. And that's identity. And that's identity- Yeah ... which is not the problem. Yeah. So that's probably where I stray a little bit from AA. I don't know about you, the idea of saying, "My name is Frank, and I'm an alcoholic," makes me want to- Never did it, never will.

Yeah. I- 'cause that's identity. [00:42:00] It's not about the identity. You're, you're Kevin. And- You're a dad. You're a husband. You're- And I haven't had a drink in almost seven years. I'm not going to say that I'm an alcoholic. For the rest of your life, no. Yeah. Uh, how, I'll, I'll be like, "Okay, I'm in... How about this? I'm in remission."

Or, you know- ... is that the right, uh, term? Like, like I'm not re- I'm not in recovery, I'm recovered. But I could always- Again, but it's, it's the labeling ... go back. Yeah, exactly. It's the labeling. So if you attach yourself to this identity, and we all subscribe to the same identity, that to me is almost like admitting we're in a cult.

Well, a- and here's the one thing I will say is like, if it works for you- Absolutely ... great. Then, then, if you, if it works, if it works to define yourself as that and say, you know, "Hi, I'm Kevin, and I'm an alcoholic," so that I, you know, for me personally, that I know that is who I am, that is what I have to be careful of and not do, and that is the mo- you know, [00:43:00] to keep me, you know, that's do it.

But I'm also the same person who says, "If you don't wanna do that, don't do it." Like you don't have to say that. Yeah. I- You don't have to label yourself. Yeah, and I, again, you know, I know maybe I'm hitting AA hard, but I think what I'm getting at is if you do, if you do the research and you find what works right for you, go for it.

I think that's amazing. Anything that works for you is good. I don't care. I mean, there are people who don't eat meat. There are people who are keto. It's what works for you. I don't think there is a mine is better than you. But I do feel that the trap for people, and we see this sometimes in, at Reframe, where people identify by their drinking, or they identify by their behavior, and it more or less I always train them, you're a whole person.

You have multitudes, you know? And you have shown that you have power to ch- make changes. And so I [00:44:00] like just bringing people and lifting them up to see what more they can achieve as opposed to, you know- You know, defining themselves by the number of drinks. That's where when I get a little bit detached from people is when we start talking about the number and how many, and I'm like, "That's great.

You can do that on your own with your own little graph and stuff." We need to talk about what is, what is getting in the way of living the life that you want. That's the obstacle. Now that you- Yeah ... and especially, let's, so we've moved on, right? So once you've eliminated alcohol from your life, what's stopping you now?

Because those things don't go away. You still have to address them. Yeah. And I think now that alcohol isn't the problem for a lot of people, then you have to think beyond that. And the other thing that you brought up is there is no mindfully moderating for a lot of different programs. There is just one way, which is sobriety, and I think that's where we're running into trouble with especially younger people.

They don't wanna be [00:45:00] told, "What, I gotta quit s- drinking or not drinking?" It's like, well, let- let's explore what the options are. Yeah, and let's learn tools to help us either w- whichever way I'm gonna, not, I- ... I started doing, I started doing my hand motions in two ways, but I'm like, no, i- in whatever way, you know, you want to go.

Because yeah, I mean, and because, you know, abstinence isn't, you know, if, if, if you, if that works for you, great. If it, if you want to work towards mindfully moderating, then work towards that. And it's still the same thing that you're saying there. It's still identifying, like, what are the reasons why I might- You drink

reach for that drink. Yeah. What, what's-- where are the disconnects in my life and, and things like that. And then, you know, I think mindfully moderating, cutting back is... I think no matter what we do, it's, like, always kind of, uh, reevaluating and reflecting on where we're at, because, you know, I, I know [00:46:00] people who, you know, over the course of time working at Reframe or whatever, like, they'll get to a point that whenever they started, let's just say the year before they started, and were like, "I wish," you know, "I hope to have, you know, be down to X number of drinks a month.

I'm, I'm here now, and I wanna be there." And then they work towards that, and I've seen people get there and then be like, "Yeah, I don't wanna stay here." Like, "This isn't what I want anymore," right? And it's evaluating that along the way- And adjusting and keeping working on yourself. How is this thing showing up?

That's where it's like you don't have to hit a certain level of number of drinks or whatever to- Right. Yeah. Exactly ... start looking at it and be like, "Nope, I don't like, I don't like how this is showing up anymore." You know, it's so funny because, uh, you said something that made me think of like patients I knew when I was in full-time practice who would give up crystal meth or alcohol and would become really [00:47:00] entrenched into their CA and AA and like really like became part of that team, and they would go skydiving, and they would do things together as an activity.

Like, they became solid people. But They became, they started using steroids and working out. And I was like, "Wait a minute, wait a minute. So you gave up crystal meth, or you gave up alcohol, and now you're, like, addicted to steroids." I go, "Don't you see? You never really figured out what was the reason for your addiction, and you never really did the work.

You just stopped, which is great, but don't you see how you just picked up a transfer addiction in the process?" And we're not gonna argue the merits of which one is better or worse for you, but that's what I di- that's what I didn't want for me. I didn't want me to say, "Okay, great, all you have to do is drink two, you know, get [00:48:00] two cups and, you know, you're good this week."

Like, I don't wanna be doing all that math in my head. It was like, how do I feel? Do I wake up and think I feel good about myself? Am I making better choices? Am I showing up the way I intended? Is my marriage better? Am, am I really being present for my mother who is 90 and I'm her primary caretaker? Which, by the way, she doesn't need my help, but you know, in case.

And you know what I mean? Like, I found that those little things, like I was on calls with my mother on Sunday and I understood her and listened to her. I heard my sisters. My sister went through a very prolonged battle with kidney failure and had to get a, a kidney transplant, and I... You know, you're there for them and you feel really good about just being the person people can rely on.

And I wasn't jumping out of a plane, not that I would do that anyway, but I really didn't wanna be, I guess because I'd seen patients like that, I didn't wanna be that. I didn't wanna be somebody who [00:49:00] just swapped out alcohol for something else and said, "Oh, I can do this. I'm not drinking anymore, right?"

Like, you know what I mean? You sort of play those games. Yeah. Yeah. And we've all done that, like where we, we're doing little, like, it's called smoke and mirrors. It's like, "But I'm not drinking, everybody," and, and you're like, "Wait a minute, wait a minute." And I just, I didn't want that. So I, I felt that always, from the very beginning, it wasn't about the alcohol.

It wasn't about the alcohol. I mean, alcohol is the problem, but what is underlying that problem that was making me, uh, think I needed to drink? Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know. I feel like a lot of times people get stuck in that, in that framework. You know, it, it's interesting, like I think Reframe is sort of one of those things where it's like a ferry.

It's getting you from-- You get on the ferry and it's taking you to another place, but some people don't get off the ferry, and they stick to this- Yeah ... identity instead of moving on and saying, [00:50:00] "Okay, what else now? Now Reframe helped me. Now what? Now what do I do? What do, what else do I need- Yeah ... to learn about myself?"

And I think that's what comes from all the different various types of meetings. The meetings, if you-- for those of you who are listening, then the meetings are not about, all about alcohol. You know, it's about other things that might be going on in your life, and I think that variety, like caregivers and, you know, professionals and women and men meetings, I mean, those are the, those are where you're listening to other people's lives and the impact alcohol had, but what, how they overcome it and where they're at.

And I think when you hear those stories, it's very inspiring. And so I-- You know, a client actually told me this. She goes, "The problem with a lot of people," and she's a psychiatrist, and she says, "They get on the boat, they get on the ferry, they just don't get off." And so they remain in this one state where they're identified as, "I'm an alcoholic," and they stay there instead of pushing themselves beyond that.[00:51:00] 

Yeah, I agree to a point. Yeah, go ahead. Well, I would love to- Well, no, I mean, I, I agree, but I, I think, yeah, if you're stuck, I think if you're just focused on checking a box, you know, not, you know, if it's not adding growth, you know. And I-- But I think that's where, like with meetings especially, like I'm trying to...

And that's where I think even the daily tasks on Reframe, not-- This isn't a pitch for Reframe, but the daily tasks for Reframe, you know, eventually broaden as well, and, and you're covering a lot of different topics that aren't specifically related to alcohol and all that. And that's, you know, the, the meetings too, I think.

I think we have a lot that are, are sharing a lot of different tools that, a-again, and this is kinda where I, uh, needed to get to myself was I was-- talked about this yesterday, about how, um, I binged lots of quit lit, like all the literature, all the books that people wrote about [00:52:00] giving up drinking and all that.

And about, I think I hit 10, 11 months, you know, alcohol-free at the time, but I was listening to it a little bit longer than that, and I was like, "I can't keep listening to these books." Like- ... "I'm done. I'm out." And then I binged the-- And then I swung the, to a different side, and I binged about 180 hours of Stephen King books.

So then I got to the point where I'm like, "Okay, I can't listen to any of these. Like, what else?" But very all or nothing, um, there. But the, uh, 'cause I said to myself, I was like, "Am I gonna have to keep doing this for the rest of my life?" Yeah. Like, am I gonna have to keep working on this and focusing on alcohol for the rest of my life?

Because I was worried about that. I was worried about always being on that ferry, as you said. And I had to kinda reframe it into, well, what am I learning? Like, what am I doing? Oh, I read the, you know, I'm reading books that, like self-help and all that, that help me cope with things in my [00:53:00] life. Like, it's not, you know, I can pull this apart.

Like, yes, I read this and it's helped me related to my alcohol consumption or staying alcohol-free, but it also helped me with this work issue I had, and it also helped... You know, so I, that's what I looked for. And so it was all, you know, it, it was and it still is about that growth, and that's what I try and bring to in like community meetings, and all, all of our coaches do Yeah.

It's about, you know, it's about alcohol- Growth ... but it's about growth. Um- You know, is it... It's so funny. Do you ever, do you find, like, you... I mean, I'm sure you have at this point, where you have clients that'll say to you, "When do I stop?" Like, "When do, when can I stop?" And I'm thinking, "Well, you could stop today if you'd like."

I mean, but it's, it's not really about a finish line. It's like, how do you feel? And what do you... Uh, what... And you said this and I wrote it down. It's like, what am I learning? And are, if you're still learning and [00:54:00] growing, then isn't that the point? Yeah. I mean, you know, certainly there are clients that are like, "I don't think I need to see you every week," or there are people like, "Yeah, I still do the daily tasks, but I, um, don't get on meetings every day."

Sometimes, you know, people go to meetings like more than two, three times. You do what you need to do. But I, I think that's an important inflection point is like, you know, you know, you said, what, 11 months a year, where you're like, "All right. I think I got this." And I think it's natural for people to take a break or, or try to navigate it so that they don't feel dependent on anything.

I think we all- Yeah ... feel like we're, we have addiction potential for everything, and that scares us. Yeah. So we don't wanna become addicted to Reframe or AA or whatever. Yeah. And I think it's normal to say, "Can I just, can I just stop for now?" And I think it's always a, it's an open door here. You know, we're here.

Uh, you can come back whenever you want, but I [00:55:00] encourage you to. And, you know, do people give up for the wrong reasons? Yeah, sometimes they do. A- and you understand, and they come back and you just say, "Yeah, it's okay. You know, it, this happens." But I, I do think that's what, you know, when you were reminding me when you, people say to you, like, "Why, when," you know, "When can I stop?"

And I love your answer as well. Are you still learning anything? Yeah. And when you say when can I stop, you mean like going, you know, doing Reframe, going to meetings or going to AA meetings or whatever? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. The, uh... Yeah. 'Cause we all just wanna get to, we all just wanna get to a finish line, right?

And be done. We just wanna check the box and be like, "Okay, I moved on." Yeah, I wanna graduate. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the-- I think we have to-- And that's, I think that was part of my graduation was realizing like, okay, well, and, and I don't... Somebody asked me, I don't know if-- I think someone asked me when I was sharing, uh, like when did you, [00:56:00] maybe when did you, I can't remember how they put it, but when did you realize like that you were done?

And I'm like, "I don't know. I don't know." Like I, I think that's a hard, uh, 'cause there were, I think there were points in time when I was like, "Okay, I can see myself doing this for a long time." I s- never said forever and never will, um, just because I don't, it doesn't help me. Yeah. Yeah, I don't like that. And then, and then like, um, I would say that in maybe six months.

I was like, "All right, I'm feeling good. Let's shoot for a year." And then a month later it was like Thanksgiving and into Christmas holidays and all of that stuff, and I was like, "Oh shit, okay, I'm gonna drink at the end of this month," was my plan and all that. And so I, I think I bounced around a lot and I just kept, just keep going.

Um, yeah. Do you do that where you check in with yourself like, "Where am I? What am I thinking?" Like is anything pl- or are you just like, "This is me now"? I mean, one of my guardrails that I said, what one of the things [00:57:00] that keeps me on track is my therapist, which I, I alluded to meeting her tomorrow and almost weekly for seven years.

Like, not necessarily weekly, but-- And early on I was just paying BetterHelp rates and all that, and then eventually she went out on her own. So now it's like I'm, I'm, I'm going through insurance, which I'm lucky, you know, I'm very lucky that I was able to do that, right? Both then and now. And if, if it wasn't taking insurance and I was paying full price and all that, then I would, you know, maybe have to adjust.

I would, I would, I would adjust the frequency, but I would still meet with her, you know, at least monthly. And, you know, I kinda, we-- I kind of view it as not a therapist, but a coach now. Yeah. A coach. Exactly. A coach and therapist when I need it, because that's the thing. It's like I don't, I don't talk to her.

Like if I'd stop talking to her, like three years in or two years in- Mm-hmm ... like I got a little antsy when she was like, "Do you feel like we still need to meet?" Or when she threw that question on [00:58:00] occasionally. Now it's like, "No, I don't think we do," but it helps. But I want to. Yeah, but it helps. I want to.

And so, you know, it, it helps me with not, uh, don't even talk about alcohol anymore. Um- I would imagine, yeah. Why, you, why would you at this point? Yeah. But, you know, that's the, that is the natural progression of coaching and therapy, is that at a certain point it becomes conversational, where you're just checking in.

You're just being present. And it does, it does hold a lot of significance. Don't underestimate it. You know, uh, I have a medical mentor. I am very lucky. He's like my best friend. I've known him since I started, uh, residency training. He was there day one. I love him to death, and I speak to him probably every day.

And if we're not talking about problem-- And he, he will-- He's so gifted that I could be talking about, [00:59:00] you know, my sister or whatever. I'm picking on my sister today. But he'll say to me, "You see how that's bringing you back to your childhood because she treats you like her younger brother, even though you're a grown man?"

And he'll do it in a subtle way where I'm like, "Wow, I just..." You know, this was-- I called him to just be talking about this new show I'm watching on Netflix, you know, and here we are. I'm getting a little bit of therapy. So that's what I mean. If you have a therapist or a coach where you can bounce things off, you don't even realize it's a, you know, on a s- on a conscious level that you're actually reaching out to talk about stuff that's important because it's top of mind.

I mean, it happens. So I'm not surprised you're still committed to it, and you know that. The funny thing is you just said, "No, we don't h- I don't have to do this, but I want to." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what I would do if I, you, you know, I'm so fatalistic. I'm like, "What, what am I gonna do if you drop dead?"

Like I have to go get a coach and a therapist. I'd have [01:00:00] to pay somebody. Yeah. But it, it happens. I mean, you know, I think about that all the time because, you know, the other thing about coaching and therapy is they know so much about you. I mean, there's a shorthand now. I mean, you know, so you can just show up and be like, "You know, I'm gonna tell you something."

I'm like, "I already know what you're gonna... You know-" Yeah ... "I already know where this is going. I've been down this road." And sometimes you just need that. You need to be redirected or reframed. I, I, one of the... think that's one of the great things about being a reframer and then a coach as opposed to just being a coach, is that I got exposed to a lot of people's styles, and the styles of different coaches and physicians that I've worked with have informed me as a person.

And I think I talked about this on one of the earlier episodes where I realize now, like, I'm not so eager to jump on [01:01:00] or, or pile on. I'll be like, "Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a... Let's, let's think about this from someone else's perspective. Let's think about it the counterpoint to this." And that wasn't me.

I mean, that was not Frank. Frank's normally be like, "Yeah, get 'em." You know? Now I'm like, "Wait a minute, guys. Let's think about this. Maybe, maybe they were thinking of it this way," you know? Yeah. And, and it's, it's... You know, I'm not always right, but it is, it is a good practice, at least for me, when I'm faced with situations I don't wanna be in- Mm-hmm

to think, "Well, okay, what, what's actually the opposite of this situation right now?" And it's helped me immensely at work, specifically with bosses who are, like, having a bad day, and you're like, "Wait a minute, wait a minute. This is not about me. Maybe there's something going on." Yeah. Pro- Think of it that way as opposed to...

And, and I learned that a lot from my mentor, you know? He just helped me immensely, and he did it all the whi- he does it all the while without being [01:02:00] judgmental ever, which I think is key. Key. It's key. I was talking, telling you about beef, and now all of a sudden I'm like, "How does that make, how does that-" Yeah.

Yeah, those keywords, it's like, wait a minute, that's like the, the antenna goes up I'm being therapized. Yeah Yeah, no, but that's so true. The... Yeah, and, and because it's-- I read, I read so much, I, I, I, I don't have it all- Yeah, you do. You're- ... all at hand, and I'm, like, trying to remember something that I just read yesterday that was just on that point about, like, basically it's not about you, right?

It's not about you. Uh- I think there's a book called It's Not About You, right? Pro-probably. Uh, but, like, that's like the, that was the quote I was thinking of. It was, it was that was the, uh, essential, you know, back, uh, or the essential, uh, point was, you know, we're all kind of living in our own [01:03:00] movie. Yeah. Uh, you know, everyone else is just supporting actors, actresses, extras-

all of that, and we're the same in theirs. We're an ex- I'm an extra in someone else's- Yeah ... and they're supporting actors. You're an extra in somebody else's movie. So- My two analogies just like that, I'm probably stealing this from one of the books you read, is you've let alcohol play the starring role in your movie.

Now it's time to become the star of your movie again. But you are absolutely right. You are literally a stand-- You're, you're a supporting character in everyone else's movie, and once you accept that, you'll feel a lot better because you don't have to take everything so personally. Yeah. Like, it's really not about you all the time.

Yeah. You know? And that's even- Fred was right ... closest- It's, sometimes it's just a tree, you know? It's not a penis. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and even, and I, and even in, like, my wife and daughter downstairs right now, like, even theirs. Like, you know, it's... Yeah, I'm a [01:04:00] supporting actor, but I don't know. You know, my daughter just got home a little bit ago, and like, you know, I don't know what, what's going on in her movie today.

You know, that if I go down and just throw something i- in and she reacts in a certain way- Blows up. Yeah, like, that's not because... Well, it might be because of what I said, but- Might be. I'm not saying I'm, uh, flawless here, but one-- So before we wrap up, I wanna ask one quick question. Oh, yeah. That's right.

That went fast. I know. Sure. If you had any thoughts, I'm like, what's-- I wrote this down earlier. I was like, what's one way someone listening could start working with shame instead of against it? Yeah. Well, I mean, if- Feel free to reword that in a- No, no, no. I, I totally got what you mean. If you are experiencing shame, certainly if you are still struggling with traumatic childhoods and revisited during the pandemic and still find yourself unsure of how to navigate this, please, by all means, if you can and [01:05:00] have it afforded to you, get therapy or talk to someone.

If you are reaching for substances to mask that, realize that that's never gonna be the answer. Certainly working with somebody might be very helpful to you, at least once to just reach out. And I think the most important thing that I ever learned was that- The shame you experience or the shame I experience and still experience was not something I deserved.

No one really deserves to feel shame. Nobody's life has been improved because they were shamed. Never. It's one of those things that I can live by. So you have to first accept the fact that something happened, you had nothing to do with it, you are certainly not to blame, and you certainly don't deserve to feel shame.

So if you can start there, that might be a good place to start. And what if that shame is coming from myself? [01:06:00] Well, it does come from yourself as well. Same thing applies, right? Yeah. Yeah. Same thing. Okay. Well, you're, you're telling yourself. Yeah. See, the difference between guilt is and shame is, guilt is I did something and I feel bad about it.

Yeah. Shame is I feel like I'm unworthy. Yeah. I am bad. You didn't do anything. You just... I'm a bad person. Yeah. And that's the difference. Yeah. There's humiliation, there's shame, there's embarrassment, and then there's guilt. The, the one that doesn't really follow an activity or something is shame. Shame is just I'm a bad person and this is, and I'm- Pervasive

unworthy or I don't deserve this. Yeah. Yeah. And you do deserve happiness, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, thanks for sharing today. Yeah, thanks for having me We can, uh, we can move on to f- wrapping this up and f- what, what did you learn this week? Uh, is this, is this my nugget? This is, yeah, this could be completely off-topic, not sobriety related, just a little nugget maybe that you [01:07:00] learned this week for listeners.

I learned something very important today. Not today, but this, this year. And Kevin, it is my, uh, birthday tomorrow, so- Happy birthday Yeah. Thank you. Wow, he sang a little bit. So for many years, I don't know why I avoided my birthday. I despised getting older. I don't like looking back. I don't... You know, I just hated the whole idea of it, celebrating it and feeling like, you know, I was getting old.

And I don't know why I did this to myself, but what seems so counterintuitive to me as a person and as a coach is that I preach that the most bravest thing you could do is to look yourself in the mirror every morning and say, "Today is gonna be a great day." Which I still think is important to do. So why wouldn't I apply that logic to my birthday?

Well, I've changed all that, and I'm not even having a big birthday. This is what's so crazy. It's just another birthday. So I am no longer [01:08:00] going to pretend it's not my birthday. I am no longer c- going to pretend that I'm getting older. I'm no go... I'm going to now embrace this trip around the sun, which I kinda think is fun.

And so tomorrow, because it is my birthday, I'm going to wake up and I'm going to say, "Today is going to be a great year. You're working very hard. This is tough, but I am really proud of you." And we talk a lot about science at, at Reframe, which I think is really great. Of course, you know I love the neuroscience, and when we think about all the studies about self-compassion, about the affirmations, they work.

I mean, it's irrefutable. So why not apply that not only every day, but especially on your birthday? So that's my nugget. It's my gold nugget, uh, for, for the week. Yeah. So celebrate your birthday. You made it. Yeah. What did your father used [01:09:00] to say, you told me? Yeah. He goes- The only, the only way to- Uh, scientific studies have proven that people who have more birthdays tend to live longer.

I just Googled it because I was like, "I couldn't get it right." Oh, good. It was so- it was something to that effect of like, you know the secret- I love it ... to, uh, living longer is- Is ... having more birthdays. Yeah Something like that, but yeah. I love it. Scientific studies have proven that people who have more birthdays- Live longer.

I love it. I love it's based on a scientific study. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, and what, what, what did I... This isn't my nugget. I don't even know if I have a nugget anymore. But, uh, 'cause I just turned 46 in, um, September, and oh yeah, 'cause I always thought, thought this too. It's like that this isn't my 46th year, like I'm in my 4...

I'm 4... I'm gonna be- 47 ... 47 officially. God, you sound like my mother. But, but that's closing out. I [01:10:00] closed out 46 then. Like I- Yeah, you did. Well, it's, you made it a year ... 'cause yeah, year zero to year one, you know, it's like that's a year. So I always looked at it the other way and- Well, it's like your anniversary.

You celebrate it- Yeah ... after the one year, you know. Yeah. So but that's not my nugget, and that's not that. That's just, that's just math. Um, I don't know what my nugget is. What are you gonna have? What are you... Are you getting anything special for your birthday? Did- No, I have to go to an all-day meet... Yeah, we did that this weekend.

Okay. I got all these gifts. Yeah. Yeah, it was great. I had a great day. Yeah. My, my, my- Well, I'm on Facebook, so a million people will wish me happy birthday, so. Oh, that's like... I, I hate that, 'cause then I'm like- It's assaultive. Yeah. But it's nice. But yeah, it feels good. But uh, yeah, 'cause my, uh, soberversary is this week too, uh, so my nugget is- That's right.

Right ... my nu- I don't know what my nugget is, but my wife's on top of it because I- Okay ... I, uh, I'm like, "Of course, you [01:11:00] know, when you go to Kelsey Elizabeth," which is the fancy little cupcake place around here, uh, bakery. "When you go to Kelsey Elizabeth next week, you can blah, blah, blah." And she's like, "What do you mean?"

And I'm like, "Well, you're gonna get cup- my cup- my cupcakes, right, for- Oh, I see. I see ... gotta cele- I gotta celebrate." You've already said what's gonna happen. She's like, "Yeah, I already have it on my reminders for that day." You're fabulous. "I saw it on the calendar and all this stuff." So she is on top of it.

Um, that's not a nugget- Sounds good ... but that's a shout-out. Hey, that's good enough. Shout-out to Ange.

'Cause I have very specific cupcakes, and they're, they're very basic, but they're delicious. Okay. Well, you'll have to send me them, a picture of you having one. Okay. It's like white almond cake with almond- Wow ... frosting or whatever. So yeah, it's basic. Uh, anyway, I didn't have any nuggets. I don't know. Nope, we'll just leave it at that.

Uh, all right. [01:12:00] Thanks, Frank, for- Yeah ... sharing. Anything else you wanna add about where people can... You know, obviously people can find you on Reframe, but anywhere- Right. Right ... anything else you'd like to plug or add, uh, feel free. No, not yet. I mean, the book will be out in August, so maybe you'll have me come back and we'll talk about it again.

Yeah. Absolutely. It was a great one. Um, all right. Well, thank you all for listening to another episode of the Reframe Mobile podcast, brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you.

Uh, if you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. And I wanna thank you again for listening, and be sure to come back for another episode. Have a great day.