This episode is proudly brought to you by Vitally.io, the leading all-in-one customer success platform. Visit vitally.io/women today to schedule your demo and get your Airpods.
Join us as we sit down with Margriet Paagman, who remarkably transitioned from a sales role in a global printing company to leading the EMEA customer success team at Contentstack.
Margrit shares her journey filled with challenges in adapting to a new industry, culture, and language, and how her team's support was instrumental in her success. She transitioned from hardware to the Saas industry where she started as an account director and climbed the corporate ladder to become the VP of Customer Success at Insided.
In this episode, you'll hear proven strategies and experiences of leading teams through significant changes like mergers and acquisitions, highlighting the importance of transparency and communication.
We talk about the qualities of an effective leader, emphasizing the importance of listening and helping team members maximize their strengths. We're also dispelling myths about career progression.
So, tune in and don't miss out on an opportunity to hear practical advice on career growth and leadership.
__________________________________________________ About Women in Customer Success Podcast:
Women in Customer Success Podcast is the first women-only podcast for Customer Success professionals, where remarkable ladies of Customer Success connect, inspire and champion each other.
This episode is proudly brought to you by Vitally.io, the leading all-in-one customer success platform. Visit vitally.io/women today to schedule your demo and get your Airpods.
Join us as we sit down with Margriet Paagman, who remarkably transitioned from a sales role in a global printing company to leading the EMEA customer success team at Contentstack.
Margrit shares her journey filled with challenges in adapting to a new industry, culture, and language, and how her team's support was instrumental in her success. She transitioned from hardware to the Saas industry where she started as an account director and climbed the corporate ladder to become the VP of Customer Success at Insided.
In this episode, you'll hear proven strategies and experiences of leading teams through significant changes like mergers and acquisitions, highlighting the importance of transparency and communication.
We talk about the qualities of an effective leader, emphasizing the importance of listening and helping team members maximize their strengths. We're also dispelling myths about career progression.
So, tune in and don't miss out on an opportunity to hear practical advice on career growth and leadership.
__________________________________________________ About Women in Customer Success Podcast:
Women in Customer Success Podcast is the first women-only podcast for Customer Success professionals, where remarkable ladies of Customer Success connect, inspire and champion each other.
Welcome to Women in Customer Success podcast. Today's episode is brought to you by Vitaly, the all-in-one customer success platform.
Speaker 2:
Take a qualified demo with the Vitaly team and get a free pair of AirPods. Vitaly maximizes the productivity, visibility and collaboration of your customer success team, helping to increase NRR and streamline operations. With Vitaly, your team can focus on the tasks and work that matter, while powerful automation takes care of the routine stuff.
Speaker 1:
See why.
Speaker 2:
Vitaly is trusted by leading B2B customer success teams. Visit vitallyio slash women today to schedule your demo and get your AirPods. Welcome to the new episode of Women in Customer Success podcast. Today I have a pleasure of welcoming Margrit Pagman to the show. Margrit is currently heading up the EMEA customer success team at Content Stack. Margrit, this was a long time in waiting. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3:
Thank you. Thank you for having me Good to be here, excited about it.
Speaker 2:
Margrit, seems like you're based in the Netherlands. Would you like to give us the idea of where, geographically, are you located at the moment?
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I'm close to Utrecht. Everyone knows Amsterdam. Utrecht is only 30 minutes away, so close to the center. Everyone knows in the Netherlands, amsterdam, oh lovely.
Speaker 2:
So, Margrit, would you say you are an extrovert or an introvert?
Speaker 3:
I'm an extrovert, yeah, love to connect to people outgoing bring a lot of energy.
Speaker 2:
I think that brings you energy. That's really good. And last of rapid fire questions, tell me, would the 16-year-old you be surprised to find you in this current role?
Speaker 3:
I don't think so, because I always love to be around with customers. So always when I was on high school I worked in restaurants, in bars, to connect to people. Also had that commercial background. Yeah, I want to earn money. So I think no, she wouldn't be surprised.
Speaker 2:
So there's some entrepreneurial spirit up there, for sure.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, yeah indeed.
Speaker 2:
Okay, so I think it's time you tell us how did you even start your career and then ended up in customer success. I heard some references to restaurants. So tell us all those early years as well, because everything counts here Well.
Speaker 3:
I started my career at an employment agency Randsteldt. So you're talking to the people who are looking for a job and you're talking to the companies who are looking for people. And there I found out that I really love to go outside of the office to visit customers, talk with them like, hey, what kind of people do you need? Find out what their needs were, and I prefer that more than talking to the people who came into the office to looking for a job. So that's why I find out my more commercial part, and from there I moved on to OCE. It was later acquired by Canon. It is a global but from origin Dutch printing company and I started in sales there.
Speaker 3:
So I got my own book of business, a car, a laptop and a phone and just went out in the field and tried to sell as much printers as possible. It was a really good way to learn sales. And from there I went from smaller accounts to bigger accounts, into sales management. I worked there for quite a long time, worked for 14 years in that business. Wow, what I really liked there was when I was a sales manager, so managing a team of young starters. So that was the beginning. So sales, always customer facing and guiding teams. And then, after those years in hardware, I was like, okay, this is, I want to do something else. And I had an orientation phase you know what else could it be? And stumbled into the SaaS business, learned about all those scale up startups with the energy, and that's when I started with Insighted, the first as an account director.
Speaker 2:
So you went from Canon, as you said, from selling hardware, then to SaaS business, to Insighted, and you mentioned something about, you know, the whole process of figuring out what was next. What were the first impressions of that change like hardware to software as a service? And then what was even the learning journey? Because you were already in leadership positions, you were leading sales team and, as you said, you had the card and you went out and you were selling like hardware. And then you transitioned into this whole new world. Like where do you even start in such a big job, transition to learn whatever you have to to get a job. It's impressive already.
Speaker 3:
It was hard, it was absolutely hard, it was a huge thing. So I gave back my car and went with a train to Amsterdam, to the center of Amsterdam. I came from a global corporate and back then we were with 40 people. Absolutely the first month it was super difficult because everything was different. The only thing was the same. So I started as an account director because I thought, like I know how to do it and then I will learn the software. A different culture. I changed from only Dutch customers to international customers, so everything in English was also a change and a different culture. And then it is just like, okay, I just start doing it and see what comes on your way, pick it up step for step, and sometimes it grew over my head. But also, I think, in a lot of those scale up startup environment, everyone is in there together. So I had a team at one side that was always there to help me, to explain and to guide me and, yeah, so working together towards me ramping up.
Speaker 2:
I will definitely want to find out even more about your actual career and insider and customer success. But while we are still on this topic of transitioning, that was almost a decade ago. So you transitioned from hardware into software as a service, different market, different industry and different language as well. So from speaking Dutch now you suddenly needed to speak only English for business. So obviously lots of change and it's great to hear how you acknowledge it was almost overwhelming at some point, but the company was there to support, so it seems that the environment was supportive. But when you look at the current climate today, what would be maybe one piece of advice that you would give to somebody who is looking to enter not even only customer success but like SAS world from completely non-even tech background, or maybe from hardware, maybe even from hospitality industry? So what would you say is like the main thing that they should have in mind when they are transitioning from such a different environment into SAS?
Speaker 3:
Always keep believing in yourself, because you know way more than you think. Also, if it is in a different space, it is working together with customers. That was in my case. That's everywhere the same. So if you know you have your skills and you know where you're good at, that you can use everywhere. So keep the trust in that. And I always say, like, knowledge you can get, everyone can learn about SAS and how it works. But keep the trust on yourself, like, okay, I know how to talk to customers. That's what I always kept telling myself.
Speaker 2:
That's really wonderful. I like how you want to encourage everybody to be positive because, as I said, there are some skills for working with people that are almost irrelevant of the industry. Okay, going back to your career, now we are in inside it. A few years ago, you started as an account director, so you were firstly in sales. How was it all going and what made you start leading customer success team?
Speaker 3:
Robin van Lithel was the founder CEO of inside it. After only two or three weeks he said to me like, hey, you know most about account teams, how to connect to customers, etc. If you want to make a plan for the existing account team, go ahead and let me know. So I created a plan like, oh, maybe we should do this, we should do this focus on different topics. Presented to him and he was like, oh, it's a good plan, so let's start doing it.
Speaker 3:
And I was totally surprised, coming from a big corporate where, if you have to make a decision, there were five layers to who needs to approve something. And I was so happy like, oh yeah, this is what I wanted to be able to influence, to have short lines. From there I started with that plan in implementing different processes, talking also to people who needed maybe a bit more commercial mindset. And then from there I came the team lead from the account team. But it was in the first one half year and also in the beginning I had still had my own accounts but was also acting as a team lead. And then from there, back then we still had the account team and the consultancy team. It was in the beginning, seven years, eight years ago, when everyone was transitioning a little bit to customer success teams, and then afterwards we merged the account team and the consultancy team into the new customer success team and I was leading that team as well.
Speaker 2:
Okay, so loads of leadership experience. So from account team to customer success team and then, basically, when Insight had merged with Gainsight, you were VP of Customer Success at Insight. Tell me a bit more about that moment in time Obviously very successful kind of exit or merger from a company. Gainsight is acquiring Insight as to be part of their family because obviously they recognize the whole new trends of digital customer success and communities huge part of it. So, as a leader leading customer success team through that change, how was that really for you and for your teams? Because, firstly, it's an unusual situation Like companies are doing it from time to time but not every leader experiences merger in their career. How is it leading the team and what do you have to do with a team to make sure that they are still fine in all that uncertainty?
Speaker 3:
Yeah, it was a few rocking months for the team because in the leadership you know it's coming and then it's announced. So then the team is surprised and happy and also like how it's going to affect me and my job. What I always try to do and think it's super important to be as transparent as possible, share as much information as is allowed so that the people in your team know, feel involved, feel part of the change. So that's what I did is communicate as much as possible and also Gainsight is a very open, welcoming company. So, yeah, a lot of people Kelly Capote, who became my direct manager, the CCO of Gainsight, as she set up meetings with the team, one-on-one with the team. So my people in the team they felt really welcome and also inspired because, yeah, it's quite cool if you work in customer success and you can work for Gainsight and you work with Kelly, with Nick, so it was also inspiring. So people are also excited because it was a cool step in the journey.
Speaker 2:
Absolutely. As you said, you get to work with Kelly Capote, you get to work with Nick Mera, not only seeing him on the stage but in some company meetings, and it definitely can be all very inspiring. I also did have a pleasure, as you mentioned Kelly Capote, to speak with her in the podcast and I just want to confirm she has been on the episode 48 for the listeners if they are interested, and Kelly is talking about her climbing off career ladder and becoming CCO from basically a CSM in a few years. Okay, back to you and back to your career. So we already established that you led teams through many different circumstances, from merger and acquisitions, from also changes in the organizations, from COVID, obviously, from loads of changes in the past few years. When it comes to customer success especially, what does it mean to be a great leader from your perspective and what are some of the practices that you always believed in as a leader should do?
Speaker 3:
I think and I also try to practice that it's so important to listen to the people in your team and what problems do they have? What can you take them off their plate? That's operational. I'm here to support the team. And then, on career, career wise, it is, I think, super important to have ongoing conversations with the team members Like what do you want to achieve? Okay, what is needed for that? As a leader, you also have to be realistic, like is it possible? Is this the right way for the company, for you, and always have to look like what are the strengths of the team member? Is a team member using enough of his strengths, because then he can grow, he or she can grow, or is the job not the best fit on the strength? So let's see how we can maximize your strengths, because then the value the person delivers is the best and the most of the time they are the happiest.
Speaker 2:
I couldn't agree more Absolutely. Leading with strength is something that I started experiencing and practicing a few years ago, which I'm very happy to, came across the whole concept. I don't know how was it in your career before then, but when I was especially individual contributor and before going into the leadership in a way, you're always told that you have to develop so many different skills, and especially skills that you don't naturally have or you don't naturally inclined because they are not definitely your strengths, and very often you know I needed to develop those skills. I don't have to mention which ones now, but I felt oh, it's just because I'm required, right, why can I not only do things that I'm really good at, and then you double down on them and then somebody else will do all the other things? Because by the time I learned it, somebody can do it 20 times better and faster.
Speaker 2:
And then you know, fast forward a few years after I became a leader and also got to know the whole concept of leading with strengths, which wasn't always the case, and I was just super happy to discover that and started leading my teams with it, which for me makes just so much more sense. But then even in CSM career, like they are just so many different skills and there is a whole array of different capabilities that one person needs to have. So when you're assessing that strength with a team, what do you do? When they should really have some of the maybe even crucial skills that they don't, but they are needed in their role, how do you orient them to develop those skills, even if they don't come naturally, in order for them to still do the job really well?
Speaker 3:
If it really needed and someone doesn't have it, then let's see what kind of training we can offer you. Maybe I can coach on the job. And it can also be if a person really doesn't have a skill and maybe also is not interested in developing. It can also be that, hey, maybe you're just in the wrong job, which is fine, Because there are other jobs who fits better and bring you more energy. And I think in the scaling companies or growing scaling companies, jobs change, requirements change, so it can be that there is in another team a job that fits better. So that's also an option. And I think I always try to be open about that as possible, because it is more important that you are in the right job then that you create everything to fit in a job where you're currently in. Always try to have that open discussion with someone.
Speaker 2:
Oh, absolutely. There are a few kind of career meets that I hear very often that I wonder what is your opinion on it. So the first career meet, especially in customer success, is my manager is responsible for my next career step. What do you think about that?
Speaker 3:
No, I'm not responsible for your career. I can guide you, I can help you, I can support you, but in the end everyone has to take their own responsibility and together you work towards next steps. But it is the person him or herself who has the ownership and, as a manager, you can guide and you can support, but I'm not owning it.
Speaker 2:
I like that. I completely, completely agree. In fairness, when I was an individual contributor, you know, back a few years ago, I also felt as, oh, when the performance comes, then you can have a conversation with your manager and then let's see what they say, like where would I fit next or what could be the best next step. And later on I realized maybe too late for that position that it's absolutely not the case, right, Because, as you said, everybody is responsible for their own career. Managers are here to support and it's so great to hear how you have been always supporting your team members to see what are their strengths, to recognize them to you know, maybe upskill, but also to understand when the role is maybe not the best fit for them. So it looks like we agree on that. Managers are there to support career growth, probably in any direction, even sometimes outside of the company, right? But career is everybody's individual responsibility.
Speaker 3:
Totally agree.
Speaker 2:
Totally agree, take ownership, take ownership, absolutely Okay. The next myth If I change the role, I'm starting all over again from scratch.
Speaker 3:
No, I don't agree, because it was a bit the same what I said in the beginning. You have your skills, so you have some basics, and it can be in a different company, it can be in a different job, but you always bring your own skills, your own experience with you which you can use again, and sometimes you have to learn new content. Now I just started at Content Stacks, so I have to learn a new platform. But you take so much with you processes which are the same, and way of working, how you communicate with customers, so there's so many stuff you take with you what you already have gained during your career and you can reuse again.
Speaker 2:
Looks like we are just agreeing a lot this morning. I'm not having any controversial thoughts because you were just saying exactly what I think as well. And in customer success especially, I always like to say how I, even coming from musical background, I found my career home or professional home in customer success, because almost every background is welcome and there is so many different tools and companies you can work from, so you can always find things that you know and skills that you know to apply in the role. So we agree on that one as well. The third and last myth I would like to hear from you you shouldn't change a role in less than two years. In other words, you should stay in one role two years and only then change.
Speaker 3:
I don't agree. Curious if we are on the same page as there as well. Now it's okay to change because a company can change, so you can be in a company of being very happy in the company and then there can be some shift in the company so that your job is changing and also you can be in company, which is not a good right fit. So then move on, which is fine. And as long as you can explain a new recruiter, then it is okay. And I can imagine that recruiters look to resumes, like to have that like ideas, oh, some people are stable, etc. But yeah, I think as long as you can explain why you made some moves, why you choose to move on, then I think it would be fine.
Speaker 2:
I mean, you personally have experience of working in one company for many years and then in another company for what? Seven, eight years, so you already have experience of being for a long time in one company. But I have been at a conversation at the table when we were discussing candidates and when there were so many knows at the table because a candidate has maybe less than two years of experience in particular jobs, which I would actually agree with you. Companies change, especially now in SAS. The environment having somebody for two years in your company, in your team, is almost a big deal because it seems that people are moving so much faster. So you shouldn't be waiting for two years only. So this is really good to call out that you said. As long as you can obviously not even explain but talk through all of those experiences and what you learned and skillset that you got, even within less than two years, it should be absolutely fine.
Speaker 2:
I just remember early on in my career I left one company because I became bored in my role and I was doing it really well and I wanted to move the role and I was told, yeah, you're good for it, but you're here less than it was 18 months, I think less than 18 months. We have a rule it has to be 24 months, otherwise we won't even look at the application. And I was really just this heart, because I was way too bored in the role to wait for another how many months. So I'm also glad you said that companies change and it's just fine. Just kind of own the skills that you gathered throughout those years.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, totally agree, totally agree, and always stay close to yourself. So if you have what you just said, like I was bored, yeah, then keep the momentum and do fully your heart and just then move on. It's fine and you can always explain it if you have those thoughts.
Speaker 2:
Speaking about being bored at work. Obviously not the greatest thing, right, but it's not one of the signs that you should look in potentially new role Like are you growing enough? Does the role excites you more? So what would you say? What are some signs that a person should look while thinking whether they are ready to move to another role?
Speaker 3:
if you experience that you mastered everything in your current role and also broader that you have, because it wouldn't be okay if you are with a company and then if you're bored and just move on, inform your manager, talk about it and most of the time if you're getting more senior in your role and potential to make a career step within the company, you get extra assignments, some extra Task or a guide, someone who's more junior, for example. So I would say, talk about it internally before you move on. So there are signs indeed that you muster everything you do. But then Naturally, especially in the business where we are, where all the companies are changing, growing etc. Yeah, there will be so much space for extra task and that also sets you apart within the company that you can be ready for your next career step Internally and that's better than being bored and look outside a company for next career step.
Speaker 2:
I would say this is such a good advice and, in fairness, if we are thinking about customer success, I don't think anyone can be bored on their roles at the moment with so many different things coming into csm's plate. Any of my role at that time wasn't even in csm, it was like project admin, so I got bored from repetitive tasks. But it is really great advice and thank you for giving that advice. Always, when you feel that maybe there's no one changes in your job, that you learned what you Could learn, just ask for new assignments, for stretch assignments, new projects. I've seen times and times again how those are the things that set you apart for the promotion and people who do that. They are the ones who get promoted because Just by proactively asking for those projects you definitely set yourself apart in Europe. Promotion material, that's how I like to call it.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, totally agree, totally agree, and it's super important to keep that in mind.
Speaker 2:
Okay, my great, I'm super happy that you shared some of your leadership principles with us today. I have one more question for aspiring leaders. You already told us so much about the leadership style and you know what to look for, etc. For people who are really good individual contributors, how could they move up to leadership role? Does it always have to be people leadership role or there should be some other avenues for their career growth?
Speaker 3:
I would say first ask yourself a question do I wanna be a leader? Because you can also be a specialist with. That's also career path. Not everyone gets energy of leading people. So I think that's super important for people to think about that, because you should do what brings you energy and, yeah, sometimes looks like, oh, yeah, you need to be a manager. That's the highest goal, but it's good to keep that in mind. And also, yeah, career wise, if you are a good specialist, it's super important for companies and I think more and more now companies are also Rewarding those who are specialists, so it's not necessarily going to the managerial. So that's one advice for the aspiring manager like, think about that.
Speaker 3:
Love the other avenue. I would make sure, before you start discussions, think about it yourself, speak to your colleagues, speak to customers. What do you see as my strength? It's good to get this feedback from everyone, not only from your manager. Talk to your friends. It is also important to have that feedback and then you know, like, what fits me best.
Speaker 3:
So different angles to make career. And it can also be that if you're now in current customer success and you can also be a leader in other teams, you don't have to be a customer success team manager and you can move to onboarding, to support, maybe to product. It really depends on where your heart goes. That's really lovely advice and what I always advise, and it is really true.
Speaker 3:
I got in the beginning of my career. If you want to make a career step, then you always want to have it today and not tomorrow. But then I learned when I am back at my time at canon. They told me like you get a career promotion when it's so obvious that you should have that promotion. And that was also with what I had in the back of my mind when I said, if you get bored, pick up extra, touch, guide someone else or do some extra projects, because then is sometime when there isn't a vacancy. It's no brainer that you will become the new senior team lead or what else, but then it always takes more time than a person him or herself once. So that's good to keep that in mind.
Speaker 2:
Oh, that's such a good call out, because very, very often it doesn't happen that the vacancy is open and then people are thinking who should be a good fit for the role. They already have people in mind, but also people say you are basically doing the role already for six months probably, and then you are officially stepping into the role. Very often that's just how natural it happens when people progress naturally and taking all of those extra assignments that you spoke about. Yeah, agree, yeah, okay, mark, read. So, as we wrap up, I would like to ask you one more question. What is the best feedback that you heard from your team members about you as a leader?
Speaker 3:
Oh, that I'm always listen and make sure to put the team first in the company, my team. I think that's what's the best feedback. Yeah, they, yeah.
Speaker 2:
Oh, difficult question. I picked up that throughout this conversation. You mentioned listening a few times, so definitely it seems that comes really naturally. It's your strength, so that's a good feedback. I don't know if I should ask that. Actually, we always learn more with mistakes that we did right. So have you ever heard any feedback that made you maybe even uncomfortable as a leader but that really helped you lead teams differently, in a positive change, in a better way?
Speaker 3:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was in the beginning of my career. I was first time manager. I had someone in my team and I had no natural fit with that person, so he was looking at me, like, okay, you don't understand me. And I was, I was, yeah, all our communication was difficult, et cetera.
Speaker 3:
And then I spoke to someone who was coaching new managers and I explained that and she told me, like you have to look better, you can always learn something from everyone in your team, because if you are annoyed about him and he's annoyed about you, so that was a bit of the. And then she said, okay, ask more questions, because there is something he can do really well, and the other way around, so you can learn something from him and he can learn something from you. So go back, ask more questions, make sure you understand why he is annoyed, make sure to understand why you are annoyed. So I always took that advice, just so, mainly in, you can learn from anyone something and just look better. And that was, I think, a super good advice that I had in the beginning of my career.
Speaker 2:
That's absolutely, I think, wonderful advice to wrap up this episode as well. Never write somebody off right. You can always think the ways how you can learn from them. That's really beautiful advice. Yeah, I agree, this conversation was so lovely to have you here, and thank you for sharing all of those beautiful wisdom that you have gathered through your leadership experience.
Speaker 3:
Thank you for having me. It was really a pleasure.
Speaker 1:
Thank you for listening. Next week new episode, Subscribe to the podcast and connect with me on LinkedIn so you're up to date with all the new episodes and the content I'm curating for you. Have a great day and talk to you soon.