106 - Breaking into Customer Success - Shannon Nishi

In today’s episode, we will be breaking into Customer Success and how to stand out when applying for a job in CS with Shannon Nishi. Shannon is the Director of Customer Success at Customer.io, and has been through a bunch of interviews on both sides of the chair herself. 

So in this episode, she shares with us:

• How to read your audience
• Processes for business continuity
• How to write a resume that speaks to the hiring manager
• Resume red flags and how to avoid them
• Mistakes to avoid in your job interview
• How to best prepare for a job interview
• What to ask at the end of a job interview

Thinking about giving customer success a try? Join us for expert tips on writing standout resumes and acing job interviews. 

Don’t miss out - polish your skills and get ready to seize opportunities! Because opportunities will come, but it’s a matter of how we react that will make all the difference.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

In today's episode I'm talking to Shannon Nishi, the director of Customer Success at Customerio. She is such an interesting and accomplished leader, and we start a conversation with our own experiences in performing arts. We both were either in theater performance or in music performance before transitioning into tech, so you will hear us both speak about the skills, overlaps and unique backgrounds that can propel a career in tech. And then we are going deep into tech careers or basically how to land a job as a customer success manager. So we start with strategies and tips on how to craft your CV to get noticed in the crowds and then how to prepare for the interview process. Shannon is sharing some of the tips of how to get noticed and what not to do, what mistakes to avoid. So if you're looking to get your first CSM role or if you're looking into transitioning into customer success role, this episode is for you. It can't get any better than hearing interview tips and advice firsthand from a hiring manager. So let's get into it.

Speaker 1: 1:12

Hi everyone, this is Marius Koby-Pilei and you're listening to Women in Customer Success Podcast, the first women-only podcast where remarkable ladies of customer success share their stories and practical tools to help you succeed and make an impact. If you want to learn more about customer success, get career advice and be inspired, you're in the right place, so let's tune in. Welcome to the new episode of Women in Customer Success Podcast. I am super, super happy today to introduce you my guest. She is Shannon Nishi, director of Customer Success at Customerio. Shannon, it's such a pleasure to have you here today. Welcome to Women in Customer Success Podcast.

Speaker 2: 1:59

Yeah, it's great to be here. Thank you for having me, Shannon.

Speaker 1: 2:02

I have so many things that I want to talk to you about, but shall we go through? I call it a few of the rapid-fire questions. Tell us a bit more about yourself, where are you based, and then, are you an interwirt or an extrovert?

Speaker 2: 2:16

I am based in Ottawa, ontario, and I am definitely an extrovert. I love being around people and getting the energy from other people. You know not that I'm out at all hours of the day, but definitely when I need to get into my happy place, it's usually around other people with shared interests and my friends and loved ones, that's wonderful Shannon.

Speaker 1: 2:39

if you would need to change your career tomorrow, what would you change it into? What would that be?

Speaker 2: 2:45

Yeah, it's interesting. I think I have a more practical answer, maybe, or a more serious answer. I'm super interested in psychology in general, so I sometimes think I was going to reinvent myself. I think I would maybe try and go back to school for psychology and either get into the research side or, I don't know, maybe eventually look at patient care, that kind of thing Ooh nice. I think the more fun answer that I always think about is that I know that I would love to be a DJ, like I definitely completely different lifestyle, but I would love to do that. I love dancing, I love being around music, I love seeing people having fun around music. So, yeah, that would be kind of my dream.

Speaker 1: 3:27

Now over the record, but it's on the record. Have you done DJing so far Like is there a place that the listeners can go and figure out ooh, that's DJing like. Remix by Shannon.

Speaker 2: 3:40

No, I wish no, nothing that interesting. I have some Spotify playlists and that's kind of the extent.

Speaker 1: 3:46

Well, it's never too late. Definitely something you can still do Now. Going back to your teenage years, when you were 16, would a 16-year-old niche be surprised to find you in this role today?

Speaker 2: 3:59

Absolutely not. No, I mean, I would be surprised, because it's definitely not something that I was even aware of when I was 16, right Like I don't know that customer success necessarily even existed as an industry, and at the time I was a performer, I was an actor, and that was kind of what I was focused on. That's what I was looking to go to school for and really honing those skills, and so if I were to fast forward to now and look at where I am, I don't think I could have envisioned that. But looking at the reasons that I like my career today and the things that motivate me and make me feel good, and where I am at currently at customer IO, I think it's all logical that I ended up where I am.

Speaker 1: 4:41

Obviously, it's all logical. Now, now let's figure out why. Because I really want to go back to your, as you said, 16-year-old self, some teenage years and the college years when you were studying performing arts, when you were an actress. Tell me more about it, like what did you study, what did you do? What type of performing was that?

Speaker 2: 5:03

Yeah, I started as a kid. I started doing musical theater as a kid. I think I did my first professional show when I was eight years old, just locally, when I was living in Colorado. I grew up in Colorado and so, yeah, I. So I do remember what was the name of the show. The very first show that I did was the King and I how long I had done some other elementary school stuff before that, but that was the first real, quote-unquote real show that I was in. But, yeah, I always danced and sang and enjoyed acting and so, yeah, that was something that I did through all my growing up years and then decided that I wanted to pursue that in university. So I ended up going to Chicago and I got my Bachelor of Fine Arts in musical theater.

Speaker 1: 5:51

Oh my gosh, this is just so awesome for so many reasons. Especially, my daughter is eight, she's singing, she will perform everywhere, like I used to go to music school and study that. So it kind of runs in the family and not that she has a choice, she just has to do music a bit. But it is just so fascinating for me that you are in musical theater because I think it's awesome and it's difficult, like it's not only acting, it's not only singing, it's combining all of those different skills at once and it's awesome and it's exhilarating and it's difficult and you were doing it. So what were the type of shows? Do you remember some of the shows that you were doing as a student or just straight after? Like, what were some of those most?

Speaker 2: 6:32

memorable ones. Yeah, I mean I did some really fun shows when I was in university with my classmates and a lot of them, you know, just not even necessarily shows that other people would know, but showcases and pieces that we put together that were very unique to that set of people, that played to our strengths, that we got to be creative with, and I think those really were my favorite because there was just so much collaboration involved and it's one of those, some of those performances that you just can't create again, right, because it was so specific to that cast of people and the directors and the choreographers. But, yeah, I did a lot of children's theater Aw huge. Yeah, I did some other dance shows and things. So a little bit of everything, a little bit of everything.

Speaker 1: 7:12

I mean awesome. I can just start imagining all of those different shows and thinking how amazing that. And then what happened? How long were you enjoying that until you realized, hmm, there is something else in life as well. What happened, yeah?

Speaker 2: 7:29

So I mentioned I was going to school in Chicago. I had graduated. I lived in Chicago for a couple of years after that and I don't think it's any secret. It's really a grind to be an entertainer and you're constantly auditioning and looking for your next job and it can be very mentally challenging at points as well. And I started to think there are other things that I'm also interested in and I wonder if one of those things is ultimately going to make me happier.

Speaker 2: 7:55

And so I kind of made a decision to step away from theater and performing in general and then was looking to kind of leverage what my skills were at that point. And because I was acting, I was serving, I was working in restaurants and bars and I was also working in retail, and so a lot of my resume was based on customer skills right and working with customers, and so I was trying to think of ways that I could leverage that. There's a great tech scene in Chicago and I was interested in getting into that, and so I started learning about ways that I might be able to start moving in that direction, and I learned about customer success, which this was in 2015. So it was still relatively early and you know different titles, different names, that kind of thing. It was like a very all-encompassing role, but yeah, I got lucky enough to find a company that was willing to take a chance on me, and that's where I got into tech.

Speaker 1: 8:49

Oh, that's so perfect. I see lots of parallels. I think I saw a name Customer Success Actually Customer Success Manager first time in 2016. What I would like to know, when you think about the performing world and being so close to the audience and basically like living and breathing what audience is doing to translate into the tech, into working with customer, because, on one hand, it is, you know your experience in serving in retail hospitality and then on the stage. What were some of the you know parallels or lessons that you can apply into both of those worlds, because I think we can start listing them forever because there are just so many. But what were some main ones that you've realized throughout the years?

Speaker 2: 9:32

I think the main one that I come back to all the time is just the storytelling element and continuity that is so important in performing arts and you know I spent a lot of time studying that and putting that into practice in my classes and university and I think that it's really important to have that same kind of story element or through line when we think about customer experiences in general, because as good of a product as you might have or as good of CSNs as you have, if the customer isn't able to follow the storyline and what the value is that they're seeing or how they're supposed to implement a product, if they can't connect those dots, then there ends up being miscommunication.

Speaker 2: 10:15

People are frustrated. It really is to me like putting on a production where you know you have to coordinate all of these elements and get the timing correct so that the person receiving all of that information is able to process it and receive the message that you want them to receive. And I think that you know just having that foundation of acting and looking at scripts and trying to figure out like, okay, how do you make this part make sense to an audience, that that comes into play all the time when working with customers, especially when dealing with more complex situations. Right.

Speaker 1: 10:47

Were you ever like intentionally trying to put the elements of a hero's journey into? I don't know, just like you know success or customer journey that we are doing? I know it's very, very different, but some of those elements of how the storyline goes and what has to happen, I just wonder, have you done it? It's your curiosity.

Speaker 2: 11:08

Yeah, I can't say that I've done it super intentionally in that capacity, but where I think that it helps me a lot is just as a leader for my team. Right, I'm trying to understand my team members' perspective and how we look at change and how we communicate change and the way that I present information to them. So, generally, anytime that I'm preparing an important presentation, whether it's to my team or an external audience or at a conference or whatever that is you know, I really lean on my processes that I had as an actor to figure out okay, what are the like key points that I need to hit and how do I connect all of those together and, you know, make this easy to follow and address the perspectives of the people that are watching before they have to ask the questions.

Speaker 1: 11:53

Today's episode is brought to you by Deploy Flow, your go-to team for cloud transformation, deployment services and managed support. Are you a US-based company looking to open European offices and operations? Our teams of experts are strategically located in the UK and Central Europe, catering to US companies seeking top-tier application support across Europe. Deploy Flow specializes in collaborating with scale-ups, ensuring seamless operations and optimal application performance. If you're about to open European offices and operations, partner with Deploy Flow and have a peace of mind. Book a call and find out more about top-tier managed IT support services deployflowco. Talking about the audience, obviously you're an expert in the audience, in connecting with the audience Extremely important as a CS leader or post sales, basically almost for everybody in business who works with customers. But probably for you it comes very naturally, but not for many other CSMs who need to try to figure out the room. You know how to read the room, et cetera. What are some things that like? How do you read the audience and how are you teaching your teams to read the audience in so many different contexts?

Speaker 2: 13:11

I love that question.

Speaker 2: 13:13

It can be really challenging.

Speaker 2: 13:14

I think it just requires a lot of awareness, not only of yourself, but just of the objective situation, and so I think that's always what I'm trying to encourage our team is to look at the details and the facts and get as much information as possible and to keep yourself on the same team as the customer, right, like, how do we look at whatever the situation is, whatever solution we're trying to put in place, and do it coming from the same angle as the customer, so that we're able to consider that perspective and put something in place that's going to make sense for them? And I think you know it's easy in the business world to quickly put up barriers or to create, you know, kind of them against us feeling in certain situations, and I think that's something that we all have to constantly fight and break down to understand okay, what is the perspective and what information am I missing here? It makes this make sense from the audience perspective and how do we close that gap? Because that piece, that like missing communication piece, is generally what's going to solve the issue and how you are really bringing those barriers down and you are really trying to get the audience to understand. Okay, what is the perspective.

Speaker 1: 14:14

And how you are really bringing those barriers down and you are almost becoming one with the audience, like you, all working towards a common goal. Now you reminded me of what you said earlier, how some of your previous productions at Univer so special, based on the costs right, and you can't repeat many of them, even if you have absolutely same script, but there is no chance they will ever be the same. So, even in business, no matter how many times you have the same process or, let's say, same presentation, same whatever, how is it important for you know all the let's say even internal teams to almost being in harmony, delivering that together? And I just love your example from before. Could you tell us more about, like, how do you work together in that, in that aspect, to deliver the harmonious performance?

Speaker 2: 15:04

Yeah, I mean, if we stick with the kind of performing analogies, when you look at a music score or a script like that is the backbone, right, and even though every single performance is different, that's the thing that's guiding everyone, that people can come back to when something goes off the rails. We all know, okay, well, we know that this line needs to happen, or we know that this song needs to happen, or whatever that is, and so I think that's why process it's the same thing. It's so important because you need to have those structures that support you so that you're able to kind of take those risks and detours. But then come back to what the process is, so that you know that you're ultimately going to end up at the destination that you want. And I think it's, you know, important to align with other departments on what those processes are, what pieces we're all responsible for, so that we can create, use that to create all of these different, unique experiences and still feel confident that we're, overall, headed in the same and the correct direction.

Speaker 1: 16:01

So process is your friend. Okay, since you've been in customerio, how many people did you actually employ or how many team members do you have at the moment? Because you started basically from scratch.

Speaker 2: 16:16

Yeah, well, when I joined the team, it was in the summer of 2020 and I was hired along with two other people and we made the team seven. So at the time, you know, it was a pretty small team and it was just starting to grow. Now we have 26 or 27 people on the customer success department. So it's grown quite a bit and I've been really fortunate to be involved in the hiring for the majority of the team that exists now. So I feel a lot of personal investment and all the players that we have.

Speaker 1: 16:46

So definitely you spend the last few years interviewing a lot, because to hire so many people, you need to spend a lot of time talking to people. Okay, let's speak about that. It is such an incredible market. Actually, just today I have seen some interesting stats. Let me see if I can pull them up. I think that, yeah, it's actually vitally, I guess. Put the study out saying that 23% of CSMs are actively looking for their new jobs. Okay, so many others start saying how they are feeling burnt out, etc. But there is a chance that obviously there are so many people constantly looking to enter into customer success world or to change their roles and, as we know, with so many layoffs, there are hundreds and thousands of people very experienced that are on the market and it's absolutely difficult to even get the interview. So, with all of your experiences, would you like to tell the audience, like, what are the things that they could do to firstly land the interview, and then we can move on with so many other aspects of that process how to get noticed?

Speaker 2: 17:55

Yeah, it's such a tough market right now and I think it's really important for anybody that's going through the interview process right now just to recognize that and give yourself some grace and some space and recognize that you're constantly opening yourself up for regaining, for rejection, and it's a really vulnerable state to be in and I think just objectively taking a step back to recognize that helps with the process of it.

Speaker 2: 18:17

It's interesting, obviously, I've been to hundreds and hundreds of auditions and I've been rejected hundreds of hundreds of times, so it's really interesting for me to go through the interview process because an audition is basically like the shortest interview ever and, yeah, I think just just giving yourself that grace is really important.

Speaker 2: 18:33

But, yeah, I've been a part of a lot of interviews over the last couple of years and definitely happy to share my my own take on what makes a good interview and what's important to me as a hiring interview.

Speaker 2: 18:43

I think that you know, as you're applying for so many positions, it can be really easy to just do I'm just going to submit to everything and I have my resume, maybe I have my cover letter. I'm just going to submit, submit to, like, as many places as I can. Obviously, it's important to get the volume out, but I would also challenge yourself not to start applying or going to interviews or submitting just to submit if you're not ready to like put in the preparation specifically for that role. Because just with the amount of people that are applying now, right, like if you have if you're not taking the time to really answer the questions on the application or to make sure that you know your cover letter is matching the description of the role, then you're not giving yourself a fair chance in the pool, and so I think it is important to just be thoughtful about, like is this actually something that I want to spend my time on, and don't burn yourself out on a bunch of opportunities that you're not actually interested in.

Speaker 1: 19:39

Cool actually see those applications and cover letters. How do they have to look like? The CVs and cover letters that, let's say, talent team would even put it in front of the hiring managers? Because even putting lots of effort into the letter, now being unsure, will it even reach the person who can understand what the letter says in the way it should be understood? What are the typical?

Speaker 2: 20:06

processes now. Yeah, I think it's different at every company. For us, I myself, I've looked at many, many resumes and will help go through that resume process. I think it's really interesting in customer success as well, because you have people coming from so many different backgrounds. Not every resume is going to look the same. There's not necessarily a specific set of skills that you can see that somebody is objectively qualified for and say this is the fit.

Speaker 2: 20:33

I think when it comes to your resume, it's really important to just make it easy to read and clear. I see a lot of instances where it's tricky to because there's plenty of customers or sorry companies out there that use different AI softwares and things to scan resumes. I know that part of it is people are looking for certain keywords in the resume. I do also see a lot of resumes where I can read the job description and I can kind of tell you, put customer success manager on this job description, but I don't think it was actually a customer success manager role. I can appreciate these skills are transferable, but don't lie about it. I think just making sure that it's clear and that it's logical, that everything in there makes sense and that you can pull out a clear story is really important. As much as it's really nice to see a nicely designed resume, the most important thing to me is that I can easily read the content and that there's nothing there that's immediately disqualifying the candidate. Make sure that you're reading through the job requirements and you're not adding something in there that might be really confusing to the person reading the resume as to why that's included or anything that is in conflict with what they've said that they want for the role.

Speaker 2: 21:47

Then I think the other thing is cover letters. I know this is so debated whether you should have a cover letter or whether you shouldn't. I would say I see a lot of companies make cover letters optional. I would say, particularly if you're coming from a background that isn't directly customer success, but you know that you have translatable skills. Use the cover letter to your advantage to explain that, because so often I'll see a resume where I'm really interested by this person. They have an interesting background. Maybe it's not exactly customer success, but now I want to know why do you want to be in customer success? Do you know what it is? Do you know what the role entails? How do you see your value translating into customer success? I often will look to see if they've included a cover letter at that point and you just have such a better chance if you're using that cover letter to your advantage to show this is what I specifically bring and my awareness of the role.

Speaker 1: 22:38

That's such a good takeaway. Really, try to put a cover letter, try to write it and explain. Really, this is your elevator pitch, your chance to present yourself as the best candidate. If you're not using cover letter, I do believe even a very short paragraph of like summary or objective or however it's called, at the top of your CV, even that can be an opportunity in two or three sentences just to say why are you passionate about it and who are you and why you should be considered. It's interesting. You said something. When you look at the CV, you can potentially see something that could immediately disqualify candidates. Tell me a few examples. Like when you check as the CV, when you're checking CV, what are the red flags immediately?

Speaker 2: 23:28

Maybe this one applies more so to cover letters, but I've definitely seen it on resumes and CVs before too. If you're going to put the company that you're applying for into the resumes, like your objective to secure a role at X company, you have to make sure that that part is updated. I can't tell you how many times I've seen resumes where it's like oh, this is one of our competitors or this is a completely, entirely different customer. Just making sure that you're taking your time and, like I said at the beginning, just being intentional about what you're applying for because you don't want to waste your own time that way. That's the one that sticks out to me the most.

Speaker 2: 24:03

I think the other things are just if I feel that the resume is not being objective in terms of their skills. There's a lot of text and language on there, but it's not pointing to experience or direct skills. It's more just talking about pretty high level common things that you want to see. But it's like if everything on there is like team player, good communicator everybody says that about themselves. I'm really looking for what are the things that make you specifically valuable and what are your superpowers that you bring to the job.

Speaker 1: 24:38

I love so much everything about what you said now because I remember looking into CVs. You can just flip through most of them and say, okay, well, it's all, either charge APT or it's all. Google, it's all absolutely same. Same, same same words every single time and words that people wouldn't typically use for themselves because being highly motivated or team player, et cetera. Those are all like the CV types of words. No one speaks like that. What actually speaks to a hiring manager from CV? From my perspective, I would always tell CSM if you had any experience before, write down the numbers. What was the type of books of business you managed? How much did you grow the books of business? Write anything that you can quantify, because no one wants to see only job description. It's in the job description. You don't want to just state responsibilities, you want to give evidence. What works for you? What do you like seeing in CV?

Speaker 2: 25:39

Yeah, I think that's a huge one. Really, it's showing how you contributed in the roles that you were in. Think about the things that you're most proud of in your past roles and how that can translate into a bullet point. The other thing that I actually find very helpful on CVs is when people just include a very short, just one sentence explanation of what the organization did. When I'm looking for people that have relevant experience or trying to understand what is their context that they're bringing, you can just put a random company name. Nobody knows what that means Really. Taking the time to call out this was a SaaS organization that was focused in the marketing space or whatever those things are. That creates some clarity around. Okay, I can see the context that you're bringing and the industry knowledge that you're going to have coming into the role already.

Speaker 1: 26:33

Such a huge takeaway. Yes, include a sentence about a company, because there is a difference whether the company is a big organization, small startups, and based on even that context, it will tell you a hiring manager how much potential exposure that person had in different situations. Why else is that context important? I would like to know from your perspective, because when I was hiring, very often it's about what you already have within your team and what are the very different skillsets and backgrounds and experiences that you would want to bring. Even a CV that can look absolutely perfect will not go through simply because, well, maybe three of your team members are already that profile and now you are really looking for somebody very different. How would you advise someone to put some of those different contexts or even personalities within the CV so that hiring manager can almost make decisions easier? How to highlight some of those interesting things or differences?

Speaker 2: 27:35

Yeah, I think that's a great point and definitely something that I'm always prioritizing is trying to build out that kind of diverse skill set across the team. I think where people can get can trick themselves in these situations especially if you're newer to applying and interviewing is by trying to guess what you think the interviewer or the hiring manager wants to see and saying like, okay, well, these are the skills that are listed in the job description. So I'm just going to mirror this word for word. You know, that kind of thing I don't necessarily have. It's not like I'm like I know exactly what the resume that comes in is going to look, like that I'm going to hire right.

Speaker 2: 28:17

So I think it's really about understanding, like, what do you uniquely have to bring to the table and what are you going to shine in? Like what really interests you, what sparks you, what's going to drive you? So that I start to get a picture of like, oh man, if we put this person on the team, we're going to be able to have them work on these projects or have them work with these specific customers or fill these gaps. Like I have to be able to see where they fit into the puzzle. And if you're trying to create a resume that's like quote unquote, picture perfect, you can fall into the strap of just making yourself look very generic and that's where you get a lot of the same thing over and over again. Like I want to see what is the experience that you have in your resume that's different, that's not SAS, that's not tech, and why is that valuable and how do you continue to use that in your roles moving forward?

Speaker 1: 29:12

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Speaker 1: 30:29

That's such a nice call out as well, shannon. As you know, when people are getting advice about their CVs, they always hear oh, make it more targeted, don't be very generic. Yes, perfect, but in that targeting, make sure that you can shine. So all of those words and sentences that make you, or make your CV, very generic. It's probably not the good way around and even if you feel that some companies maybe are not suitable for your type of experience or skillset, still don't be shy from it and embrace that background and everything that you are bringing to the table, because you never know when it will be recognized. Okay, shannon, so that's about getting the CV right. Shall we move on to the interview? Once the CV is approved for the interview? How shall we even take that? Do you want to tell us first some of the biggest mistakes that you have seen people doing at interviews? Yeah, maybe that's a good way to start. What?

Speaker 2: 31:26

not to do. Yeah, I mean, I think ultubility it just comes down to preparation, right, you have to have a plan for how you're going to prepare and you do have to prepare. And obviously some people aren't naturally good at interviewing and maybe that preparation looks a little less than them. But I think it's really important that everybody sits down before they start the interviewing process and figure out what are the things that I want to make sure that I highlight what am I proud of in my career so far, what have I learned from my career so far, and start to be really specific in the examples that you can speak to and what the ultimate takeaways you want from the person that's interviewing you to have.

Speaker 2: 32:04

And so, yeah, I know in the past, something that's worked well for me as I've gone through interviewing cycles, is actually just setting up a spreadsheet with this is an anecdote that I can quickly call to, and these are kind of the qualities that that shows in me. And these are some examples of when this might be an example that I bring up on an interview and just create a set of those examples like maybe like eight to 10 examples that you have ready, that you feel really comfortable speaking to that you can bring up on an interview, so that you don't get stuck in one of those situations where an interviewer asks a question and you're just drawing a blank and take your time to answer. You know it's in. You don't want to rehearse it and memorize word for word exactly what you're going to say, right? But just like having some of those ready that you can pull from will just make you feel so much more confident and not caught off guard in the moment, and that will also make you feel more confident sorry, more confident understanding.

Speaker 1: 32:58

Oh, I do have a lot of experience because even from eight to 10 examples you can. You can put them in so many different contexts and I know companies that sometimes want to hear about the situation and specific actions you took and then specific results. So again, that might be just a little guide for for somebody who is trying to apply. Like you know, don't take 10 minutes in explaining the situation, for example, like, just be very, very quick in doing it clearly and briefly yeah, I think that's an excellent point.

Speaker 2: 33:29

I think that's that's another common mistake that I'll see people make in interviews is you ask one question and they can spend 10 to 15 minutes on that one question. It's easy to do when you're talking right, like you lose track of the time, but as an interviewer, I also have a set of criteria that I'm trying to evaluate for, and so I'm going to either have to cut you off, and it's going to make you feel uncomfortable, or I'm going to let you tell the whole thing and then we're going to run out of time. I'm not going to be able to get to some of those other points that might really be critical, and especially for a CSM, I think it's really important that you show that you have an awareness of that conversation and how much time you're taking and can kind of like stick to the task at hand.

Speaker 1: 34:08

Oh, absolutely, because you also want to see from potential CSMs how would they run a customer call immediately, how would they structure just based on their answers. That was really good call out. What were some of the other not to do or the common mistakes you have seen?

Speaker 2: 34:24

Yeah, I think along those lines too. Another trick that you can always use is if you're worried that you're going to be too brief, that your answer is too concise, you can always say I'm happy to answer any follow-up questions or dive deeper at any of those elements if there's something that's interesting to you there and the interviewer will dive in if there's something that they want more clarity on. But giving them that opportunity rather than just sharing every detail, I think goes a really long way and similarly to what I was saying with the CV, is that don't assume you know the answer that the interviewer is looking for. I know I ask a lot of behavioral and situational questions that I'm really trying to understand.

Speaker 2: 35:01

How do you problem solve? How do you approach different situations? What are the things that, when you are calling back to certain examples from your past life like, what are the things that are sticking out that I can start to see? Ok, these are the interests and the motivations that this person has, and what might that look like on the team? And so if you're just telling me some picture perfect story about a customer experience that you have that I've heard seven other times, I don't know why you are the candidate over the other people that I've been talking to. So don't be scared to have opinions or to be really transparent or honest about the things that you do really well and the things that you've improved on in the past, and also don't feel like you can only reference professional experience right, like if there's other things that you've done or you've worked with charity organizations or volunteered or have run your own project with your friends to get a show started in someone's garage or whatever it is like. You can use those experiences too, and that actually shows your diversity of experience and your ability to apply those concepts in multiple different spaces.

Speaker 1: 36:11

And it speaks a lot about the characters. Or, if you're asking questions, what are the moments you're very proud of or what you think makes you good in a role, et cetera. You can find out so much about someone's character and potentially how good or how well would they fit in with the team. As we are wrapping up, I wonder do you, as a CS leader, have a set of principles or hiring criteria? Or obviously you have hiring criteria. Do you have hiring categories that somebody has to hit?

Speaker 2: 36:43

Yeah, I mean I'm looking for somebody that's a clear communicator that's obviously very important so somebody that I can easily follow their responses and I'm always taking notes during interviews, so I need to be able to pull out what are the key points from what you're saying, and if I'm having trouble grasping that, that could be a sign that maybe customer interactions might be a bit of a challenge.

Speaker 2: 37:03

And then, more than anything, what I'm looking for is just someone that shows that they have a gross mindset, that they are open to learning and that they have the ability to do that and that they can show how they've done that in the past. I think there's so much in tech that is really role-specific to the company that you're at Like nobody's going to come in knowing everything they need to know to do your job, and so really it's like OK, I'm looking for people that know that things aren't going to be perfect, that are comfortable with that and that are willing to contribute to help make things better and help us grow our organization and our team. And then also people that are just curious, that are looking to learn and that are comfortable to get into situations where they might not know everything and just figure it out, and that curiosity is sometimes very easily recognizable with the questions that they are asking.

Speaker 1: 37:56

So typically, interviews end with some questions. What have you seen that works well? Not even types of questions somebody is asking, but maybe even the way that they are asking questions, or if they are not asking any questions at all. That's already telling you a lot. And what's your advice about questioning the interviewer during the interviews?

Speaker 2: 38:16

I really like when people are asking questions about specifically how certain skills will come into play in the role, Like they're trying to get a good understanding of what the role is, which shows me they're looking for a good fit where they can invest their time. They're not just looking for whatever is going to fill their next role, that they're being mindful about. What are the places that I want to develop in and is this role going to provide that for me? I also think people that are interested in just the organizational culture and how that trying to understand how they're going to add to that culture and contribute shows me as well that they are going to have an awareness of team and that's important to them, and that they're willing to uphold all of that culture that we work, put in place and then they're going to bring something extra too and make it better Did you have ever interviews when people just didn't ask any question?

Speaker 1: 39:13

Oh, definitely yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:15

Definitely, definitely interviews where people don't have questions. I think it is important that and sometimes you have multiple rounds, like I know with us they're meeting with a screening manager first to go through some initial questions with our recruiter, and so sometimes they may ask questions there. But understanding like, ok, what are some of the more role-specific questions that I can get into with a hiring manager, are really important to have on hand because it just shows that you're thinking about not only like from an interviewer's perspective, but how are you going to fit in the role and is this something that you want?

Speaker 1: 39:51

I don't know. Just previously, asking questions can almost tells you equal amount of information as then just responding to your questions, just because you get to understand how they think and what are the things that matter to them, what are their values like, what is it that they are emphasizing, et cetera. So, again, it's just advice. People ask questions, please. It can really make a difference. Senna, thank you so much for taking us through this process. We have to wrap up today and I'm just thinking, oh my gosh, I have so many more questions. What comes next? Maybe on another time, but this was really really valuable. So thank you for sharing your insights. And, at the end, where can people find you online?

Speaker 2: 40:35

Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. You can look me up, shira Nishi, and that's generally the best place to get me these days and I still need to ask you one more question.

Speaker 1: 40:44

Ok, what would be your advice, Like one piece of advice for aspiring leaders and customer success in the current environment?

Speaker 2: 40:55

Yeah, I think I recently resurfaced a quote that I think speaks to me, a Seneca quote. That's about how luck is just when preparation needs opportunity, and I think that that is so true of a life, but particularly in customer success. Right, there's so many opportunities that you don't even know exist yet, and so making sure that you're staying open to those opportunities and are ready to take them, but doing the preparation so that you can take those opportunities and that you know that it's the right opportunity for you to be taking when you find those things. So I know that's a bit of a high level answer, but I would just recommend for people in success to just constantly be looking for an open to those opportunities, but to be still intentional about what is important to you, what values you want to drive within an organization, what things you want to achieve in your career, so that when those opportunities present themselves, you're ready to jump on them.

Speaker 1: 41:51

That is a wonderful advice and, coming from former performing artists, you will know better than anyone else how much rehearsals and preparations are crucial in super performance. I would say it's same in customer success as in other industries as well. Constantly be prepared for something next, because it can come any time and you never know. Shannon, this was wonderful. Thank you so much for coming to the show.

Speaker 2: 42:16

Thank you for having me, maria, it was great chatting and, yeah, for all of you out there interviewing. I know it's a super challenging process and find ways to recommit and keep it exciting for yourself and good luck out there.

Speaker 1: 42:32

Thank you for listening. Next week new episode, Subscribe to the podcast and connect with me on LinkedIn so you're up to date with all the new episodes and the content I'm curating for you. Have a great day and talk to you soon.