112 - Top Mistakes to Avoid as a CS Leader - Natalia von Oertel

Latin America. Leading teams dedicated to serving these regions has further strengthened her ability to navigate their unique nuances.

Beyond her professional pursuits, she embraces the multifaceted roles of a dedicated mother and an ardent ballet enthusiast—albeit a humble one. 

You’ll also hear about:

• How can you help customers achieve their goals?
• What to include in the customer success plan?
• What is the right thing to do as a CSM?

Tune in and learn what it truly takes to deliver value to every customer, create an effective customer success plan, and help your clients achieve their goals. Don’t miss out - transform your approach and lead with confidence.

Follow Natalia!

This episode was brought to you by Vitally.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

In today's episode, I'm talking to Natalia von Ertel, a customer success consultant based in Argentina. She's sharing her failures as a CSM and also failures as a CS leader. She's also giving us tips. What are her lessons learned and what not to do. What are the things we should avoid? So either you're a CSM or a CS leader, tune in to this really, really exciting conversation and hopefully you will get lots of tips of what to do instead, where remarkable ladies of customer success share their stories and practical tools to help you succeed and make an impact. If you want to learn more about customer success, get career advice and be inspired, you're in the right place, so let's tune in. It is my great pleasure to welcome today's guest to the Women in Customer Success podcast. She is Natalia von Ertel, Customer Success Consultant. Nati, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2: 1:14

Thank you, I'm so happy to be here.

Speaker 1: 1:17

Nati, let's get to know you a bit better. Tell us where are you calling from? Where are you based?

Speaker 2: 1:23

I'm in Argentina, so in South America, where today is so cold today, and I hope that people in the other side of the world they are warmer than me today. So yeah, I'm very, very in the south of the world.

Speaker 1: 1:36

Very south of the world. So how far are you from the penguins down south?

Speaker 2: 1:40

Well, no, no, they're a little bit further, a little bit further, okay. South well, no, no, they're a little bit further, a little bit further okay. I'm like in the middle in buenos aires, like in the same line than sydney for people, that is in the other side, literally. So we are in the middle and then we have the south of the south, where we have the penguins and close to that antarctic, but no, they are like four hours flying from here.

Speaker 1: 2:04

Oh gosh, obviously, Argentina is huge. Okay, it's very cold in Argentina today. We got that it's pretty warm and very sunny in London, which is Sunny, finally. Springtime is here. Now one thing that I have to check with you, nati what's your favorite morning drink? Because I saw something before we pressed the record button and I want to find out more about it. What are you drinking? I love it.

Speaker 2: 2:30

I love it. Thanks for that. So people, I know that, people in South America, maybe you know that, but this is a mate. You write it like mate, but it's mate. So it's like I tried to explain, maria. It's literally like a green tea, but this one inside is not a tea, it's sherbet, and we drink it with a thermal like this is warm water, not hot, it's warm, and the tricky thing, like you don't drink it alone, you share it with other people. We were discussing that. It's weird because we share this truth.

Speaker 1: 3:06

So what's happening when you have business meetings and you offer people would you like mate, exactly, would you like coffee? What happens then with that straw? Now I'm getting a bit concerned.

Speaker 2: 3:19

Tell me more, well literally, if we go to the meeting together, people drink coffee in Argentina a lot. But if someone has a mate like for me, I don't drink coffee, I just drink mate and I have a mate people will ask me like oh, can you share a mate? Of course I will. So also, we share it with customers, with colleagues, of course, with the family and friends. Imagine that if I share it with someone that I don't meet, all the time I'm with my family yes, we share it all the time. And people are like it's weird because, as I say, in COVID it was like we are not going to share this to everyone, but after COVID we start to share it again. So nobody cares that we are sharing this from. So yeah it, I love it, I drink it a lot, and then when I travel I try to go with my mate. So people abroad, they were like what is that it's mate? Would you like to try? No, I don't want to share the straw with you that's how we say hi, hello, I'm, and that's mate.

Speaker 1: 4:21

And that's so cool. I'm gonna look for it, because I didn't know about it so far and I had my normal green tea this morning, as I just recently stopped drinking coffee completely, which is so weird for me. So now I need to find that mate and see what's the past about. I think it's going to be great. So thanks for sharing that, natalie. Now let's go into customer success. Perhaps tell me how did you end up being in customer success?

Speaker 2: 4:53

that's freaky, like my background is connected to supply chain, so no connect connected at all. But I was managing customers, but more connected to operations and data and arrivals and goods moving across the world. And then when I moved to Australia, I started to work in a SaaS company, well connected to data driving. I was coaching in productivity to the engineers, in productivity to the engineers. And then I come back to Argentina and I joined a SaaS company that they were looking for people in customer experience with supply chain background because it was a platform for supply chain department. So it was a perfect mix for me.

Speaker 2: 5:37

And then the company was growing and one time they were having an account manager and then they created a customer success area and said now they would would you like to join? Sure, how would you do the job? Because I don't know how to be a success manager. And that's where the story begins and that's why we are here today and I opened the consultant company but at the beginning I was like literally Google it how to create adoption in a customer. And if my customers in that period of the time are watching this, I'm so sorry. I was a terrible success manager. I was just driving adoption because of usage of the platform, no idea how to generate value. So thank you to all my customers that were pilots in my career.

Speaker 1: 6:27

So I'm sorry for them. That is so sweet. That's so sweet. However, you're saying, oh, all I knew was, you know, tracking adoption and help customers drive adoption, but you know, a few years ago, that was the main focus of customer success. Anyway, that's what everybody were doing. Don't be so hard on yourself like that. You were doing what everybody else did, yeah that's true.

Speaker 2: 6:53

That's true, but I realized in that moment that my customer, I never got an attrition that in that period, thank god. But I realized that I was not adding something, but the problem was I. I didn't know how to solve it and I remember that, um diana, a leader in that moment, one account manager shared a book with me and I was reading. The book was so good, um, but explain do you remember the book?

Speaker 1: 7:20

no, do you remember the book name?

Speaker 2: 7:21

no, that's fine, it's Customers and Series, basics, and there are plenty of books like that. But when I was reading the book it was just playing the role, but know how to do it, how I can do that in the practice. And then Salesforce hired me and I learned everything from Salesforce and then I realized how to really generate value. But at that moment I was a disaster.

Speaker 1: 7:51

I literally was a disaster. Okay, now let's go into that. You said you didn't know how to deliver value previously, and then you started learning. So tell me more about the journey. What are some of the wrong things that you realize you used to do? We are going to talk about more of your mistakes as a leader as well, because we learned the best through some failures and some mistakes. Uh, but yeah, that part as you've been csm and then you started doing like the right thing. What was that? How that? How did the writing look like? Well at the beginning?

Speaker 2: 8:23

was testing. I'm sorry to everybody, but you have to practice. That's another. There's no sharp reading aloud and listening at the end. You need to practice. And the most failure was also when I moved to Salesforce. I was leading a team so I was like, hey, if I come to lead you, I will try to share all my mistakes and then we will learn together how to do it in the right way. The first failure that we got is we were focusing still in just usage, just usage.

Speaker 1: 9:00

Okay, so that was still.

Speaker 2: 9:01

Salesforce right, salesforce was an element when I was before, so at the beginning in the journey, was just adoption, connected adoption just with using Monthly active user. That please don't make me wrong. We need this indicator. It's not like I don't care anymore. No, no way you need it, but it's not enough. So the first mistake was just focusing on that, but then with the team tea, we realized that, okay, but how I can think about value? And that's the part when you we need to start to understand how I can be a proactive and strategic success manager, which is not easy. The other second mistake well, that we are following support tickets, because, of course, the success management is a complicated role, because you have a technical part and you have a commercial part and that mix is so complicated to hire in the market. You are more technical or too commercial, so how you can have that mix?

Speaker 1: 10:04

As you mentioned, support tickets. That's one of the things that so many CSMs in the world still sometimes have to chase today. Right, somehow it's not in the job description, but you end up just doing it. Why do you think is the reason for that? I guess because, isn't it? Because that's really on top of mind for customers on every single day. Just for that to be resolved, or how would you approach it I guess you know why.

Speaker 2: 10:27

It's because customers love to have a face and when you're a customer success manager is a face and an email with a name, a surname or maybe just a name at something. It's like why I will go to something at this scale when I have a real human behind the computer and I cannot. I have a customer that comes and says, Nelly, I have a problem with the single sign-on.

Speaker 2: 10:52

I don't have an idea why you have a problem with the single sign-on. Just open a ticket to support, because literally I don't have an idea. I was like you know that you have to go to support, then we can talk about customer success. Escape. That's different, right, yeah, but going when you have name account, when you have 20, 30 account, that is not even where they'll add something. So in that period I guess customer is used to go to you and while we weren't trying with my team, I tried smoothly move to them to support. Hey, did you open a ticket? No, could you open a ticket? Share with me the ticket so I can, in the backstage, talk to the support team. Sometimes we did it, sometimes we didn't do it. No, it doesn't matter. But the customer is like okay, I will open a ticket, but I'm fine, nati and her team is going behind, so I have humans behind the support ticket.

Speaker 1: 11:54

That is just so good because very often, as much as you're trying to educate customers and as you said, at the end of the day they really know they should go to support and they go, but they feel so much better. I told her, I told you, I told her now I'm covered, like there is so much trust, as you said, behind a name and the face. It's. It's just wonderful like how, how that relationship matters, it and it works.

Speaker 2: 12:21

Yes people trust People trust me. It works. It's still working today for me. Of course, at the beginning they call you and they open a ticket. Now the customer opens directly a ticket and many of them they never share the number with me because they are fine with support and also because they know that I will not answer. They're like why I will send you that it's something you share. Hey, nanti, could you escalate that? Hey, I cannot log in. Okay, I got it. You cannot log in. You cannot use the platform.

Speaker 2: 12:53

Different with services right Today exists customer access for services and for products, because customer access is not just for SaaS. Today, for that people, your journey is a little bit more complicated and that for sales company, but you need to work on that. It's not easy at all. Right, like it took me many months I would like to say like almost a year maybe to convert my customer to go more to support and not just come with me. And many times I knew the answer. I knew it. I was like I will not answer to them. Go to support, open a ticket.

Speaker 1: 13:35

Follow the process. Process is your friend.

Speaker 2: 13:39

And also a tricky message that I always say you know what, without a ticket, nobody will move. They need a ticket to track their job, even though when they need to go to engineering or productive, they open a ticket. Oh, so engineering will follow me if I open a ticket? Yeah, yes, absolutely After. I'm tidy with them, but they will do it.

Speaker 1: 14:02

Okay, natalia. So you started as focusing on adoption, and then support tickets became such a big part of it and we just spoke about why it's. Probably it's just the psychology of customers wanting to talk to us a face and tell them I have a support ticket. And then how did you realize what is, what is the real value, and how do you even deliver real value to every different customer? Because very often that value means so many different things to different types of customers. When was that breaking point, when you realized this is the right thing to do?

Speaker 2: 14:39

Well, that came when we started to remove our operative thing or reactive thing Not 100%, sometimes we need to have a look to the ticket but you started to have more free time and the customer were like, if I don't talk just with you about usage and if you don't sell my ticket, what do you do? Yeah, what do you do? And that's the second part. We start to understand how to generate value and I love it of a success plan. People call it value mapping or success path. Doesn't matter the name that you want to put. It's okay, put the name name, the marketing name that you want.

Speaker 2: 15:24

But it's like you need to start to ask to your customer what are the business objectives and if you don't have the proper stakeholder, at least what is the operative business opportunity that that person that you had in front think that the platform is helping them to meet that objective? And then we will talk a little bit how to go to that stakeholder that we want to meet right. And then you have to match the capabilities of the platform, of you as a success manager, because sometimes we are industry expert or we have the knowledge enough to share best practices in line and match all that, create a workshop with the customer, online, virtual, like on-site, whatever and match all that with this object. At the beginning, when you don't use to do it, it's quite robotic, like where is your object? Blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, I guess that the platform can help you on that and that's it. That's fine At the beginning, it's fine. Then, when you're used to doing it, you start to ask the customer why, why, why no? Because we want you to increase in revenue. Why?

Speaker 1: 16:44

them almost understand, like how, what they are doing with your platform, how does that help them and their customers right? Everybody have customers that they have to serve. Yeah, you find that your customers almost struggle to put those objectives right. You ask on that beginning of the majority of the time, what's your objective? And it's like I don't know the majority of the time.

Speaker 2: 17:12

What's your objective? And it's like I don't know. The majority of my customers say, for example, a platform that everybody knows, like Salesforce, right, or any marketing platform that you have to send campaigns and publicity and all this kind of advertising. And they say because we want you more leads, Of course you want more leads, or maybe not. Maybe you just want to share awareness of your brand. Oh, I don't know. Okay, so you don't know. All the time I minimum, I say why Form time? And when the last two are the same, okay, I got it. You don't have more idea. And sometimes they say, ah, it's because of that. You don't want to lose more cashier, you want to reduce your cost. Always connect it with money.

Speaker 1: 18:07

It's always down to the bottom line, so we need to needle that and say, okay, I got it.

Speaker 2: 18:15

And if we don't have the right person? That's the second part that I learned Work with the account executive, work with sales team. I call my sales member, my account executive, minimum one or two times a week. And the reason of why? Because if our role is proactive and strategic, we need to grow our account. Stop thinking on revenue, sorry, on renewal rate. Of course we don't want attrition, but if you're thinking how I can grow and get the upselling and cross-selling of my customer, we are not a sales profile. We don't have a sales profile. That's why we choose customers that sell, because in theory, we don't like to sell.

Speaker 1: 19:04

But you do have to sell constantly, exactly.

Speaker 2: 19:08

Exactly so who is better to work with you as a great partner that had that skill, because they are paying their salary to sell than your account executive, salesperson whatever the name that you put to that person? That is the commercial area like literally one or twice a week and at least once a quarter. I don't do that. I call in every week. So, hey, I'm proposing this to the customer. Okay, I got it, because the person that we close the opportunity many times is the salesperson. Yep, in some organization it's that. Yeah, depending on how the organization is. Yeah, I got it. In that case, it's start to learn how to sell. But if no, if you got the opportunity to work with sales team, they are my best friend. I love them, I literally love them. So that's the only thing.

Speaker 1: 20:07

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Speaker 1: 20:51

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Speaker 1: 22:08

And I really love how you're emphasizing the partnership because it's being a co-pilot. You can't do it by yourself and you both will have just different insights about the customers. As you said, if you're not working with the proper contact salesperson should have had it and help you Mapping, yes, and you should hopefully do it together. I remember some of my best EBRs or QBRs ever as a CSM was when you're working so closely with sales and then you both appear. You both go on-site or even virtual. It's such a different dynamic and the customer appreciates oh, you both are here, I have a team, I'm important. No, that's awesome and thanks for also sharing that.

Speaker 1: 22:54

Your strategy. You're almost using the fishbone technique. Right, the five why? And then you stop on four because they don't know what else to say, but it's so crucial Help customers with their objectives. Go always, drill down and ask those more why questions? And why questions on a different way, right, so it's not only why, why, why, like, it's not counseling in that way, but you're just helping them come to the same conclusion. I love those strategies and then you came to understand what, like what is that real value for them and what you can do for them. And, natalia, what I also want to find out from you. I love the conversation about those mistakes and failures and what didn't work. Well, tell me about you as a leader, like what were some of the biggest failures or mistakes that you have done as a CS leader that you wish people listening would really avoid and learn from your mistakes?

Speaker 2: 23:59

Yeah, well, you know, when I started, I was a leader before for professional services and then I moved to the leadership of customer success, when I also was learning about customer success properly, and I remember my team wanted to be promoted very fast. They were like around 20 something and they were so talented and, of course, any company, you cannot promote everybody. So I remember they were trying to have like a checklist If I do this, this, this, this, this, this, I'm going to have a promotion. No, but I'm doing everything right. And my main mistake at the beginning was trying to create that checklist for them. And then I create that feeling. I created that feeling that, okay, if I do all that, so I'm done. Okay, no, you're not done.

Speaker 2: 24:44

But you told me that if I do all this deep like speak is lovely, like speak slowly, manage my speed, ask why, why, why, why, and be proactive with my customers, move the tickets to support and not just me why I'm not promoted. Okay, and I remember staying home alone was middle of the pandemic and we had a lot of time. I was like I don't know time. I was like I don't know. I literally I don't know. And after thinking, oh hey, the checklist is not enough. I remember another, and Nari, they need hours of flight like a pilot, but it's so interesting you mentioned that because hours of flying like a pilot.

Speaker 1: 25:32

I see that it's so interesting you mention that because, okay, I'm not labeling, I'm not talking about Generation Z. You know what is written out there about them and work, but I think there is that notion out there that, oh, I've been in my role for 9 months, 12 months, where's my promotion? It's almost as people feel entitled to get promoted as soon as they have two quarters under their belt. But then it's about setting expectations, right. Firstly, yeah, you can be amazing, perfect. Carry on being amazing. It is your job to do it on the most amazing way. You can Carry on doing it. It's great, it's awesome. Not everybody can be promoted. Even if you have three amazing CSMs at the moment that could be promoted, only likely one of them could be promoted next time. You can't give promotions every few months, right, because there are, they will find me as a leader.

Speaker 1: 26:34

Nathie, you're me as a leader. Yeah, exactly Like there are budgets associated to promotions. That's why sometimes it's happening only once or twice per year in companies. Like there are processes, so people just thinking, oh, I've done my job so well, I got so good feedback last two quarters. Yeah, carry on doing it. That doesn't mean now you should stop because you're not getting promoted. The time will come right. And sometimes it's the company. If the company doesn't grow very quickly, well, sorry, we can't promote you. So that's one of your mistakes. Right, you've been trying to promote.

Speaker 2: 27:09

Yes, totally, and how I solve it is like I started to. I was joining the meetings with my team telling to the customer I wasn't the manager, I was a team member that was learning because I don't want to bias the customer, because the member of IT was already biased because I was there, I was just taking notes and then after the meeting ended, I just called the person and said you know what you need to work on this? More in the soft stuff and that's more complicated. Right, and it was hard because my agenda exploded, but it was two months doing that. Then I started to shift, talking to my team member about I like to tell them colleagues, to start working with them, just in business stuff. Hey, now the conversation in our one-on-one is more connected to how we can grow the account, more connected to business, to a strategic. So it's not anymore a checklist and they were sharing situation that they were having in the customer how I can handle this, and that was easy for me. Then you have sometimes the member that they still wanted the promotion and it's obvious, but we were talking about business At the beginning. It was gently wrong. No, then was shadowing. So I got more soft and qualitative things to share with them in reality, not just what I think right.

Speaker 2: 28:52

And then moving our one-on-one to talk about how you are going to grow the account. And then, when you see when they have the gap because they are learning, I got the account. And there, when you see when they have the gap because they are learning, I got the gap. I cannot remember my manager taking that conversation when I started, like was gap, gap, gap, gap? No answers at all. How are you going to grow your account? No, no idea. I have to Google it. So and that's in how I'm working with the team and today also with senior people, they conversate how we are growing your account no idea. Did you talk with your account executive? No, why? What, I don't know?

Speaker 1: 29:30

Wait, call him or call her no. And that goes on the checklist. I love your idea about the checklist. You know why? Well, people sometimes just need structure. So if they carry on doing things based on the checklist, it helps them. When they learn right, especially when they are maybe first 12 months in the role, it's so good to be able to follow something, which doesn't mean they're promotion material, they are just doing the basic of the job right. And then I love how you turn it all into growing the account, because that's where you want to go. So it's a good idea. Actually start almost putting some checklists. Like, when you want to grow an account, what do you do? Firstly, talk to your sales people. What else would you put there in the checklist? Like for CSMs listening, take notes. We won't actually create a checklist for you, but take notes what Nat?

Speaker 2: 30:23

not we won't actually create a checklist for you, but take notes. What is it saying? I guess that first is gonna be try to create your success plan. That's first, because that will train them also to start the why and match that why and the objective with the capability.

Speaker 1: 30:39

Then the second for a second for success plan. What are the main things you would include there? You already said the objectives like and how do I exercise what else?

Speaker 2: 30:50

Yeah, well, the success plan is just that game, right, it's that play, objectives and each capability right, how it match, and sometimes one capability. Let's put it in an example hey, I've got a marketing platform and I want to have more leads because I would like to grow in market share, because I'm a new brand and I want to grow the brand. So I want to use marketing to create a Warner plus, get more leads because I need to gain more market share and, of course, I want more money. Yeah, of course. So the capability you have the platform to do the emails, of course, but the automation, and then maybe you have AI to recommend how to create this campaign and then you have all the dashboard to work on that. And then we have experts in the company that maybe we can do a workshop with your team to help you sell better in your email. So that's another capability of the feature. So another checklist that you have to include in your success plan is just the feature of the platform. They are resources that you have in the company. Could be you that maybe you are an expert, maybe you came with a background in Elementor.

Speaker 2: 32:06

I came from supply chain. I have a lot of knowledge to share about supply chain, but sometimes you have. I learned that, hey, I have people from marketing. I can bring my own marketing people to tell you how they think to create the campaign using our own platform. Other, I used to go to our UX team and say, hey, would you like to work with the UX team of my customer and share how we use our own platform in UX? Very good idea, so that you should include in your success plan. Don't think about my first mistake at the beginning. Just use it. People around you remember customers love to see faces, so put people in your own company that can help you. Just share. I don't know if it's best practices, but, hey, what is happening in this in real life?

Speaker 1: 33:00

It is best practices, because they want you in a way. They expect you to provide the platform, which you do, but they do expect all of that best practices and well thought leadership. Whatever you can provide for them, it's awesome. That means they are not on their own, just using the platform. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:19

Other thing that I will include in the checklist. And again, remember that we are working with customers. They are human, they change every day, so that's why the checklist doesn't work all the time. So it's not a process, it's a human in the other side. And then work with sales team. If you don't have the connection with the sales team, talk with the manager of that team. If you don't have the connection with the sales team, talk with the manager of that team. Then work with product. If you are in a SaaS company, please work with product team At least once a quarter. Have a meeting to share what the customer is having. I talk with product team every week. Yeah, every week, because I'm not an expert of the product, I'm not a developer, so I want to learn why we are creating this. What is the pain that we are here to solve, to share with the customer? And sometimes I ask them to join a call with a customer. That's not easy. They don't like to talk to the customer.

Speaker 1: 34:15

But when they do it's incredible for them.

Speaker 2: 34:22

They love it, they love it, they love it. And that's part of our role of a strategic profile in customer success. We are not just matching features and capabilities of our platform. We are bringing you more things to generate and contribute to that value. And when the customer has to choose, why this platform or this one like, but in this one I have a Nati that she's thinking of me, about how everything that she has can help me Some days. Nati with the expertise and the platform and the product team and the sales account executive do it at QVR team and the sales account executive do it at QVR. And also this is multi-tasking Nati is connecting me with another customer to share stories on pain point.

Speaker 2: 35:10

I love that part of the mode when the competitor came like you don't have a choice.

Speaker 1: 35:16

Bye-bye, you don't have an answer they choose me.

Speaker 2: 35:18

Yeah, that's our role. They pay us for that, not just to share how to use a platform and how many features you are using. That's fine, we need it, but it's not enough in our world.

Speaker 1: 35:32

It's very big. Yeah, I just love how you put all of those strategies together because it is. There's so much conversations, you know being multi-threaded, do this, do that, but at the end of the day, if yeah, it's all in theory, it's just as you said. You're putting faces in front of customers, you showcase them how you care about them in the way because you are putting, pulling those internal resources. Basically you're communicating with them, making internal case, you're doing so much to get them in front of them on that call and that means a lot and they know that they are supported with you and your whole ecosystem and not just the platform, because there are way too many platforms in the world already. They can easily pick another one tomorrow, but they can't pick another nutty tomorrow. Yeah, I love these failures. Do you have any advice for aspiring customer success leaders, given some of your links and good stuff, you know?

Speaker 2: 36:31

Last week I was listening at X4 and Michelle Luama and she said we don't come here alone, right, and I feel that my big mistake was thinking that I have to solve it or resolve it alone, and that's not true. So you have to create community, not just with other success managers. Work with other people in the company that you are working on. Work with sales, work with marketing, with the SDR Nobody talk to the SDRs, so talk to product team and, of course, with your peers. Right, but we have to stop to think that a success manager is a role that you have to develop a lot. Customer success is a culture and a culture needs more people, not just you. You need a community inside your company. So that's my only recommendation Don't think that you have to create how I can create value for this customer alone. Create an account planning with your account executive, your solution engineer, whatever the team that you have, it doesn't matter how big or small your company. Don't do it alone. That's my only suggestion that's a wonderful suggestion.

Speaker 1: 37:53

And also, don't try to be Jack of all trades or don't try to be the only hero for your customers who cares Like, no, just. I really loved how you said build that community around your customer, like build community with people you work with. That's wonderful, you know, rather than having a blame culture or trying to point mistakes, this is such a wonderful mindset to have. Thank you for sharing with us. Nati. Thank you. Tell me, where can listeners find you online? What's the best way to connect?

Speaker 2: 38:26

I prefer to use linkedin so you can find me, like natalia, born over there, um, so literally you can see my, my name. So I share content every week and I'm planning to do some coffee talks so people can talk each other. We are feeling the same and, again, we are not here alone, so I prefer that LinkedIn is the best resource. Also, you can go to my website, nativonartecom.

Speaker 1: 38:56

but LinkedIn is fine. We'll include both links in the show notes. I just hope that when you will have those coffee talks, that you will have mate or milk.

Speaker 2: 39:07

It's coffee talk because it's for all Latin America, but the mate will be with me.

Speaker 1: 39:12

Mate is ready. Nazo, it is so wonderful. Thank you so much for coming to the show.

Speaker 2: 39:18

Thank you, marianne, I really enjoyed it.

Speaker 1: 39:47

Thank you for listening the show. Thank you.