Women in Customer Success Podcast

126 - How to Lead Teams With Empathy While Still Achieving Amazing Results - Irina Vatafu

• Marija Skobe-Pilley • Episode 126

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How can empathy be a game-changer in leadership? 

In this episode, I had the pleasure of talking to Irina Vatafu, the Head of Customer Success at Custify. In her career journey, from her early beginnings to leading high-performing teams, intuition has played a key role in making tough decisions along the way. We talk about how empathy can be a superpower in leadership, transforming the way you interact with both your team and your customers while still driving success.

Irina thrives in roles that require effective communication, problem-solving, and empathetic engagement. One of Irina's key strengths is her ability to create a collaborative and supportive workplace that consistently delivers exceptional experiences and fosters strong customer loyalty. 

Here’s what you’ll learn:

  • Irina’s inspiring journey in customer success and what she's learned along the way
  • Listening to your gut feeling and intuition when making hard decisions
  • How to build strong relationships with your customers and team members
  • Irina’s idea on leading with empathy and why it’s important
  • What it's like to be the Head of CS


Hit play and discover how to lead with empathy, build trust, and guide your team to success. Growth happens when you take the time to understand those around you and lead with both your head and your heart.

Follow Irina! 

This episode was brought to you by Deployflow.

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Speaker 1:

What's the difference in outcomes when we start our one-to-one conversations with how are you really doing versus how are we getting on with the project? Join me as I speak with Irina Vatavi, head of Customer Success at Castify, and we explore how we lead teams with empathy and still gain great results. Let's get into it, hi everyone, and still gain great results. Let's get into it and make an impact. If you want to learn more about customer success, get career advice and be inspired, you're in the right place, so let's tune in. It's such a pleasure to welcome Irina Vatavo on the show. Irina is a head of customer success at Castify. She's also a mother and she is one of top customer success leaders in Europe. Irina, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2:

Thanks so much for having me today Great introduction. Thanks so much for this invite. I'm sure it will be very fun.

Speaker 1:

Irina, I'm really looking forward to this conversation and, for the listeners who are just tuning in now, if there is one thing that you would want them to take out of this conversation, what would that be? What can they expect?

Speaker 2:

from this. I think one of the things that I usually like to mention is that leaders can lead with empathy, and CS people can have empathetic leaders that can understand their needs and empower them to succeed. This is one of the important lessons that I've learned and I'd like to share with the audience and I can't wait to dig a bit deeper on that topic with you, irina.

Speaker 1:

But let's place it geographically for the audience, who is the global audience, can get a better sense of who you are. Where are you based?

Speaker 2:

I'm based in Bucharest, romania, and, yeah, this is where is the core team of my company too, and, yeah, dealing with the heat in Bucharest.

Speaker 1:

That is really great. So Romania and Bucharest is one of it's on the southeastern part of Europe. For anyone who may not know about a country yet, it's a wonderful country. I can't wait to visit one day, especially the Transylvania part of it, and maybe the Dracula castle.

Speaker 2:

That's like yes would have heard about Dracula. We have seen some scenes in the movies with the castle that we are proud of, so we are waiting for you here. Oh, I will come.

Speaker 1:

I'll come. It's on my bucket list, irina. What languages do you speak?

Speaker 2:

yeah, so I'm speaking, of course, romanian and English. It's mandatory, but I'm also, of course, romanian and English. It's mandatory, but I'm also speaking French and Swedish. I cannot say I still speak Swedish, because I used to speak that, but yeah, I'm also familiar with that language. This is how I actually kicked off my career. This is how I kicked off my career and I think, thanks to that language, I am where I am right now. Did you study Swedish? Oh, that's why I studied in college and then my first job in tech was gained because of that skill. So, because they were hiring people in Romania that know Swedish, and there are not many. Yeah, I was the lucky one to get a job in tech and this is how I moved. It was on fast forward.

Speaker 1:

Then, when I that's so wonderful Every time when I speak with someone, especially who's based in Europe, because for us Europeans it's just so normal to speak a few languages, because you always learn a few, and it's also normal to study some of the language. Right, very many people choose to study a few languages. Especially you know a few that are not mainstream and you're just proving, like a living proof how knowing any other language or any especially third language, can bring you so many benefits for your career and especially in tech, in European context. It's just amazing to speak languages, so thank you for sharing that. I'm going to ask you in a few minutes a bit more about the start of your career, because it seems really interesting and I'm so interested to hear you know how did you bring all of that together, like language skills and entering tech for the first time all of that together, like language skills and then entering tech for the first time? That's why I'm interested now.

Speaker 2:

Would the 16-year-old Irina be surprised to find you in this current position. I think the answer is not. So when I was young, I didn't know what I wanted. So I was good at maths, but also foreign languages. I had a lot of hobbies and I liked to learn, in general, everything from what the school was teaching us. And I didn't know what I want to do when I will be an adult. But I knew for sure that I want to work with people in a challenging environment and I want to do. I want to wear different hats. I don't want to do only one thing, because probably I will get bored. So I am exactly in a place where I imagined myself to be a couple of years ago. So the answer to your question is no. She would not be surprised that is fantastic.

Speaker 1:

So now I wonder you were a bit older than 16, probably 18 or so, when you started university. So talk us through that part of your lives you studied foreign languages. And then what happened after that? Because very often, especially in Europe, people feel it's very limited. Oh, you go and study some, you know different language. People think, oh, you can, only you know teach that language in a school or in a school for foreign languages, which is not the truth. So I really wonder how did you end up being even in tech after studying languages?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so the story is very long because, yeah, as mentioned, I followed technical high school and I was learning math and informatics and everything tech related, and then I chose to actually study French and Swedish because I felt that I am technical but I also want to learn some soft skills and I also want to learn literature and to have communication skills. So tech profile for me in college wasn't the best choice, so I went to, accepted the risk and I switched the profiles and then I chose Swedish, I don't know why. So I just checked the list and Swedish sounded exotic and I read something about the country and I was very curious how it sounds and I liked it and, yeah, this is how I chose it. So it was not something that I wasn't so passionate about.

Speaker 1:

Sweden before anything it was a new thing very new thing in your life.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, exactly. I wanted a challenge, a hard challenge. You got yourself one, exactly, and it was challenging. So it was really challenging. But after four years of studying, I also took a master's degree, also in Swedish.

Speaker 2:

But then I accepted a job, my first job in support, technical support, and it was when I went to the interviews I was also sharing with them that I studied Swedish. I was a beginner so I couldn't have advanced conversations with customers, but for basic support beginner job, they were super excited to hear that they have a Swedish person that would join their team and they accepted. They sent me the offer the next day. So it was the first interview and, yeah, right after I received the offer and I was I had a chance to work first with English and French until I learned everything, because the project was very complex and there were a lot of tech terminologies and stuff like this, and then I transitioned to Swedish. But this opened the door to other opportunities because, being there, I learned super fast everything that had to be learned.

Speaker 2:

And then I transitioned to other projects. I actually, yeah, there was an unfortunate situation. The project closed, but then I transitioned to other projects. I actually, yeah, there was an unfortunate situation. The project closed, but then I was moved to a different project and I started working for Microsoft and then all the other opportunities came because I became a technical trainer very fast and I had the chance to work with hundreds of beginners on the project. I was training them when they were joining, so I was their technical trainer and had batches of students. Let's say that I could share information with, can I?

Speaker 1:

just go back to that. I think I can completely understand why the company gave you a job offer the next day, because your profile was not only something they couldn't find, it was so rare and so amazing for them because you had a whole high school very technical subject mathematics, physics, informatics, everything that you would have in a technical school and then all the editions of languages, which was awesome. But now when you said you were training them, now I do have an assumption also coming from you know, central or Southern Europe, when you're studying languages, what typically happens is that you do get to have a few kind of pedagogic subjects as well. Right, because it's almost the assumption at the university that you're going to teach those languages. Did you also have some of those pedagogic subjects? So you were already like a baked educator? So for this company, you were teaching batches of users on technical subjects in different languages was absolute dream.

Speaker 2:

Actually I only taught them in English, so the Swedish skill was only used during the first job and then I got rid of any additional language. Everything happened in English. But this was the base of my current professional background, let's say, because this was the reason why I took that interview, or at least this is how I see it. So, without making the choice of studying that and without participating in that interview and having that as an asset, then maybe my career would have looked differently right now.

Speaker 1:

We are glad how your career looks like at the moment. How did you find yourself in customer success after those few roles?

Speaker 2:

It was very nice because one door opened another In this situation. I became a technical trainer. I started working with people. I was teaching them technical stuff, but I was also learning how to be a good manager because I was their dedicated manager during the time in training and trainings in that situation were taking around six eight weeks, so I was responsible of everything that they were taking around six eight weeks. So I was responsible of everything that they were doing logistics and everything during that period. So it put the basis of my management career and also I understood that I'm good at that. So people were working smoothly with me. I was receiving good feedback from them. I started dealing with the things that prepare you for a manager position, like conflicts in the team or managing different hard situations or giving feedback, having one-on-ones telling them what they have to improve, and I was also responsible of their performance once they went to production. So in the first weeks they were still reporting to me and I was there to explain others if they weren't good enough in their job or if they had something else to learn. They were always referring to their trainer. So I was as a manager for them, but I was under the title of technical trainer and after that I knew that, okay, this is what I want to do. This is the next step in my career. I want to become a manager. But, yeah, I had to start somewhere.

Speaker 2:

And the next step for me was a small period working in learning and development. I transitioned from in-class courses to online content and I was working on the business side more, so I understood also parts of what the stakeholders want and I was working more with managers than with normal employees. I was working more with managers than with normal employees and after that I had the chance to participate to an interview for Castify. It's the current company that I'm working for and it's a startup, and before that I was working for Microsoft. So it was a big change. And here I applied for the CSM position. It was it's customer success manager. It's, of course, not manager, but it has manager name in the role. So I was like, okay, anything that involves managing someone or something, that's for me.

Speaker 2:

And when I joined, when I had the interviews, everyone was super transparent with me. We are a small company, you will do a lot of stuff. We are not hiring you just for the CS position. Company. You will do a lot of stuff. We are not hiring you just for the CS position. Probably you will have to do a lot of just for the CSM position. Probably you have to do a lot of other stuff and wear more hats. And it was challenge accepted, I knew it is for me, so I joined and, yeah, we started working together on building everything that we have right now in the company and that I'm very proud of, and I had a chance to transition to the head of CS role.

Speaker 2:

So things followed their path and everything. All the stars aligned. And this is what I'm usually sharing, because I'm talking to different CS professionals that are at the start of their career and they are asking me OK, but what do you know is the right step, or how can you make sure that you are getting to the point where you want to be? And I'm always telling them accept challenges and follow your intuition. Your intuition will guide you. Your intuition, your intuition will guide you. So you will know in the moment something there's an opportunity. You will just say yes to that and you will turn it into a learning experience and this will just make you come closer to the point where you want to be.

Speaker 1:

I love it so much when you say follow your intuition, and very often I mean often, but, yeah, probably not often enough we do discuss about it and we speak of the really importance of almost listening to your gut feeling and intuition. I can relate to that so much. I've seen it in my career times and times again. I think one of the most prolific experience was when I was interviewing to either become a kind of CSM in one company or a project manager in another completely not even in tech and everybody were telling me to take that project manager role. And when I went to CSM interview it was a startup again tech company, small one.

Speaker 1:

Now, foolishly enough, I just loved the way the office looked like, so much that I told myself as soon as I set my foot there this is the place where I want to work. And against everybody, I was like no, that's my feeling, I want it to be there and I'm so glad that I took that choice and it was purely intuition because it opened all of the customer success doors for me. But that's why I just like when you said, like the stars align, there is always something that even if you're not sure about a choice and you can put pros and cons down on the paper and be very rational and logic about the decision, but intuition is sometimes like that X factor that should really determine where you want to go next. I'm happy it happened for you as well.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and I feel that when you're put in a situation to make a hard decision, I think you actually know the answer from the beginning, because you mentioned that you were talking with different people about what position to choose. I think maybe in your heart you knew already what will be the position that you will actually choose, but you were just trying to get a validation.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, that's very interesting.

Speaker 2:

Yes, because in my situation, when I got the offer from Castify, I had to choose between a big company and a small startup. And when I was sharing that with others they were like no, but the big company is so stable and you should stay there. They have promotion schemas and stuff like this. You will get to a very good point in a couple of years. And in my heart I knew I just knew I had the email, the resignation email, already built, so I was just searching for confirmation that maybe one person will share my thoughts and will say just yes and I will go with that. But actually it didn't happen and I still chose the other side.

Speaker 1:

Yes, be truthful to yourself and Irina. This is just a wonderful career story. Today's episode is brought to you by DeployFlow, your go-to team for cloud transformation, deployment services and managed support. Are you a US-based company looking to open European offices and operations? Our teams of experts are strategically located in the UK and Central Europe, catering to US companies seeking top-tier application support across Europe. Deployflow specializes in collaborating with scale-ups, ensuring seamless operations and optimal application performance. If you're about to open European offices and operations, partner with DeployFlow and have a peace of mind. Book a call and find out more about top-tier managed IT support services. Deployflowcom.

Speaker 1:

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Speaker 1:

Join our power-up tribe to access our flagship mentoring program with Guider. Find the link in the show notes. How is it at the moment being kind of, you're not CSM, you're head of customer success team. But how does it feel being CSM for CSMs? Because Castify is a customer success platform? Do you feel an added pressure? Do you learn a lot from your customers? Like what are all of those excitements that you're getting from being in exactly that position?

Speaker 2:

Yes, so it's first. It's incredibly exciting and we are working with some amazing people and we are learning from them every day. So you cannot imagine how many different CS processes can exist and how different CS is from a customer to another. So it's super complex. It's more than we see on LinkedIn posts and what people think about, and I'm very thankful to our customers because I'm learning from them.

Speaker 2:

And this is, uh, we are never getting bored, uh, but yes, it was a big pressure in the beginning because I was also new to the role and, um, the expectations and everything that, um, our customers were asking us to do, uh was super complex and I had to learn on fast, fast forward and to adapt to many situations and to learn a lot, and I think I couldn't sleep for a couple of months until everything was finalized and we were on a good side.

Speaker 2:

But, yeah, we are the CSers of CSMs, so, of course, beyond the tool and beyond all the strategies that we have for CS, they expect us to be their consultants and to also empathize more with them and to also give them advice on their processes. So not only how to get value from our tool, but also if their processes are good or not, or if we have better ideas on what they could do. So it's not only about being the CSMs and helping them get value from our product. It's also about being trusted advisors when it comes to CS processes, and that's a challenge, of course. We, for sure, are not the best, let's say so. We always have stuff to learn from customers and the customers from us, so it's a learning curve that never ends.

Speaker 1:

I mean well, not only this was one of your first CS roles, even if you have been in the industry for much longer. There is just so many different companies with different types of strategies and different processes and you can just like absorb all of those differences as you come across them, but there is no chance you can ever see everything really. So with every new customer, I can imagine that there's always a bit of like uncertain grounds and things that you still have to learn from the get-go, but you can advise them on what you have seen so far with your customers. But it's interesting.

Speaker 1:

It's one of those things how I don't want to change the topic, but when people speak about CS platforms or any type of tools out there at the moment, I think that is such a is the biggest value of customer success. Team, like that part of best practices and consultative mindset, because customers want that. They just don't want another app, right, we all can just download another app, another tool and use it, but you want somebody who could challenge you and tell you actually this process could have been much better, right, if we saw it with our customers like it's not great and that's the real value.

Speaker 2:

Exactly. That's exactly what we tend to do. Our end user is the CSM, so we work with our champions to understand okay, you are using this platform to solve these goals or these pains, but what is your professional challenge at this point? What are you trying to do inside your team in order to become successful and to hit your next career path goal? And by helping them do that, they really become our advocates. So we are not just trying to understand okay, you want to build a playbook for a customer or something like this, and check to done? It's more like how. What is the difference that it makes for you as a professional? If you build that? And we've seen that retention improves and customer relationships are better and we have many advocates in our case, it works. We are really working with people. It doesn't matter the profession. We are really working with people, doesn't matter the profession. And if you are seeing the person behind that role and you are trying to be empathetic enough to support that person, I think that's the key to retention.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more Well. That's what I see as a consultant as well, as I get to work now with more than one company at a time, which is so interesting. Uh, you described so well how to build champions. Right in sales processes, people will be taught how to build champion because you need it for your medic and you need it to close the deals. But once your customers become customers like, it's also so important to build them up because at the end of the day, when it's retention conversation, that's what will matter.

Speaker 1:

Right, it's not only about what a tool can do, and very likely for all the CSMs listening out there, no matter which tool you're using or that you're a CSM of, there is some competitor that are doing probably absolutely same thing and customers can just choose no matter what very easily. But whether you are showcasing that you care about them and their career. That is what makes a difference. Because I think in the last few years especially, there is that whole idea of personal brands and people getting more exposure and being in the spotlight. So if your tool can do it, people are going to stay with you. I mean it's kind of selfish in a way, but in another way it's not. It's almost like economy. You give me this, I give you that.

Speaker 2:

Yes, it can sound selfish, but if you are doing that, naturally, so even if that's the end goal, I'm here to help you grow as a professional. So I'm not doing that with that mindset that I'm selling you something. I'm just naturally caring about your success and then the results will follow. So it's that simple.

Speaker 1:

I like how you put it. It's very simple. We know it's not, but you did mention a few times empathy, and I can see already that that's almost the baseline and the starting point, how you are building relationships with your customers and with your team. I wonder, in the context of your leadership with a team, in the context of your leadership with a team, what does empathy mean for you and how do you think you demonstrate it? Or, on another hand, maybe question for after like when there is no empathy, how do you see that there is no empathy and that things collapse? So let's start with your idea of empathy.

Speaker 2:

Of course. So things can be, of course, very debatable. I'm just expressing my own idea. So what I tend to do and I think the fact that I worked inIs that I'm having, or the pressure that I'm receiving from the higher management or from the business itself maybe sometimes contradicts the things that I want them to do or that I'm believing in. I'm trying to always take their perspective into consideration and to somehow be flexible enough to be a different manager to every one of them. So each person needs something different from a manager.

Speaker 2:

And if you are just rigid and tough and look for KPIs and goals, achievements, and you are just the same person with everyone, I think it doesn't work.

Speaker 2:

I think it lacks a bit empathy, because what works with you might not work with someone else in the team. And if you have enough emotional intelligence and you are careful enough about your employees' needs, you will learn that every one of them has some small things that work for them. You're just actively listening and applying those things back to them. In the moment you need something or they face something difficult a situation or they have a bad day, you just go and talk to them and you apply those things that you observed that work. You apply those things that you observed that work. So you just stay flexible and try to manage all the tough situations by looking at things from their perspective, putting yourself in their shoes and trying to understand them as much as possible. Of course, you have to find balance into doing that and wasting too much time into just analyzing and finding what works for every employee. But yeah, it's again, you will find the path if you are naturally that empathetic person that can see people and that has the patience to do that.

Speaker 1:

I think it's wonderful that you want to approach I mean, it's almost like with children, right? Everyone is individual. You have to approach them differently. What have you seen as almost being the common ground of your leadership? Like what would be some things that are almost universal across every different individual, like something that can work with everybody?

Speaker 2:

I think everyone wants to be listened. So, even if you have, you might have people that are more open to communicate or people that prefer take approach, we just talk about. They are more pragmatic, we just talk about what's needed and then we move on. We don't need those one-on-ones where we talk about career growth and personal development and things like this, but at the end of the day, even those people need to be listened or to.

Speaker 2:

Maybe they had something that happened during that day and if you are careful enough and you have that attention to details, you will observe that you will find the right moment to reach out to those and make them open and communicate with you. And I think this is like with customers and it's also like with kids. So in the moment they feel they can trust you and you just touch that sensitive point where you make them openly communicate with you, from that moment you already created that relationship that is based on trust and they will come to you easily next time. And, yeah, you just pass that barrier where you just try to understand what is happening there and you don't know if the employee is happy or not, is motivated or not. Yeah, so I think this works for everyone. I don't have an example where people don't want to be seen as the person they are.

Speaker 1:

That is so fantastic, like there is probably no individual that doesn't want to be seen and heard in this world, and when you showcase them that you can do it for them, regardless of next steps, right, whether you will next look more into pragmatical data and see what has to be done differently, or whether it will be career conversation, they just want to be heard and almost acknowledged for the way they are feeling or the way they are doing something.

Speaker 2:

Exactly yes, and something that I've learned from my coach is that and it's generally valid and I like when others are doing that with me is that you should start every one-on-one conversation with. It doesn't matter how many topics or how many urgent things are there. You should ask them how they are, how they are today, and it's just you make the call about them and the entire vibe changes. So, even if maybe you have some uncomfortable topics to talk about, you just ask that question and people will start talking about themselves a bit and then the situation. Then you move to more urgent work related stuff. But do that with the managers, do that with your team and maybe with your boss too. Maybe your boss also needs to hear that.

Speaker 1:

That is such a wonderful advice and I remember when I applied it to my team or even my boss once, my boss was so surprised in a positive way, he just started saying how he felt and actually said oh Maria, I'm glad you asked the question because, like probably no one else Scheme that, it's really fantastic asking you know not how are you doing, how are things, but how are you actually doing and how are you feeling about everything?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it happens to me too. I also have bad days and when I jump on a one-on-one, of course I make the one-on-one about that person. But sometimes it happens for them to ask me back that question and, yeah, it's really like I get emotional. I'm like, oh, this person really cares about me.

Speaker 1:

It makes such a big difference. You know, I think, as we started working remotely, I remember I had a manager that would come on one-to-ones and there was just maybe hi and then straight away opening spreadsheet what are we doing here, what are we doing there? And at the end of the call I would feel like, am I a robot here? You know, am I just a task machine? Because we all just have to do work. Of course we have to do work, but luckily we all also have tools to do work, even asynchronously, where you can ask about updates and stuff. But when there is one-to-one conversation, like when you have a meeting with your team members, that is, I feel it's like it's a blessing. It's an opportunity to really connect in a meaningful way, not only check the boxes of some tasks.

Speaker 2:

People are not machines Exactly and it's a good mention about the remote environment here is more important to apply this rule because, as you mentioned, they might be feeling that they are just fulfilling tasks and they are not seen and they are not encouraged enough. So this people interaction is super important in order to keep a team motivated and, yeah, it might make a difference into accepting or not another offer, for example, maybe. Yeah, they have to feel more appreciated and I think this part with seeing them and listening to them makes this difference and helps with employee retention Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Everybody needs, as you said, everybody wants and needs to be heard and seen and listened to and feel that they are needed. Yeah, Irina, thank you so much for this conversation. As we are wrapping up, I would like to hear from you Is there anything that you wish you had known then, Anything that you know now but you wish you had known? You know some years ago, when you were starting your career?

Speaker 2:

Anything that you know now, but you wish you had known you know some years ago when you were starting your career. I think I will go back to the gut feeling, and the younger Irina should have been more confident and trust her gut feeling more. I did that anyway, but I did that by being more nervous about the decisions I've made. Maybe right now, if I knew everything that I know now, I would be more relaxed about the decisions that I'm making. And you always make a good decision if you are very assumed and, yeah, you trust yourself that you'll succeed, doesn't matter what you've chosen. I love that.

Speaker 1:

Trust yourself and trust your intuition. That's why we have it, especially us women. That's it. I'm so happy we are ending on that high note. Ladies, trust your intuition. Thank you for listening. Next week new episode. Subscribe to the podcast and connect with me on LinkedIn so you're up to date with all the new episodes and the content I'm curating for you. Have a great day and talk to you soon.