Women in Customer Success Podcast

Berlin Live: An inspiring Evening with Cara Benecke, Sally Stoewe and Pia Schümann-Hoppe

• Marija Skobe-Pilley

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Can you believe it’s been five years since we launched the Women in Customer Success Podcast?

What started as a conversation in your earbuds has grown into a global movement. Now, after hundreds of episodes, bringing these discussions into the physical world feels like coming full circle.

We hosted our second Women in Customer Success live podcast recording in Berlin, where Marija Skobe-Pilley welcomed Cara Benecke, Sally Stoewe and Pia Schümann-Hoppe. We discussed:

✨ Redefining what "having it all" means in today's professional landscape

✨ Setting 'non-negotiables' for work-life integration

✨ Building success on your own terms

✨ Setting boundaries that stick

✨ Leading authentically across diverse European cultures

This was a perfect night where our incredible audience engaged in deep conversations, asked thoughtful questions, and shared experiences with each other.

And now, you get to hear it all. Whether you're an aspiring leader or looking to advance your career, this session offers invaluable advice and inspiration. Tune in and enjoy!



***Special thanks to our sponsors Gainsight and Braze for making this happen!


👉 Follow Cara on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cara-benecke/

👉 Follow Sally on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallystoewe/

👉 Follow Pia on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pia-sch%C3%BCmann-hoppe-a3aa5437/

👉 Follow Marija on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mspilley/

👉 Follow Women in Customer Success: https://www.linkedin.com/company/womenincs/




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About Women in Customer Success Podcast:

Women in Customer Success Podcast is the first women-only podcast for Customer Success professionals, where remarkable ladies of Customer Success connect, inspire and champion each other.


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Women in Customer Success

Host Marija Skobe-Pilley


NEW - Women in Customer Success Courses:

  • Thriving as a First-Time People Leader - https://womenincs.co/thriving-as-a-first-time-people-leader
  • The Revenue CSM - https://womenincs.co/the-revenue-csm



Speaker 1:

Hi everyone. This is Maria Scobepile and you're listening to Women in Customer Success podcast, the first women-only podcast where remarkable ladies of customer success share their stories and practical tools to help you succeed and make an impact. If you want to learn more about customer success, get career advice and be inspired, you're in the right place, so let's tune in.

Speaker 2:

Hello ladies, welcome to Berlin Live. Hello Berlin, I'm very happy to be here today. Thank you for coming. How many of you know about Women in Customer Success? Quite a few, so I'm happy that you're here. I'm going to spend the whole night talking about it, just joking.

Speaker 2:

Uh well, women in customer success is celebrating fifth anniversary this year. Actually, I think it was 28 of april 2020, in the middle of pandemic, when I put the podcast out there, for one sole reason to to get access to models female role models in customer success. Because I heard some data a few months before how 60% of women enter the industry and they are CSMs, but only 30% of all of those women in customer success ever managed to get to a director level or above. So I thought, from so many reasons, that that could be the case. Maybe one of the reasons is also not having enough role models, so I started a podcast, and that was five years ago. Currently, women in customer success is think of it as a career hub for women in customer success where you have access to mentorship, to resources, to masterclasses that we are doing this year with Gainsight, second year in a row already masterclasses, courses and just different types of resources that can help you in your career. I'm very happy to see Laura here. Laura, can you just wave a little bit? Actually, laura and I started a course that is called Thriving as a First-Time People Leader, and we are resuming it again, or we are taking the second cohort just at the beginning of May. So if you are an aspiring leader or if you are a leader in customer success, check it out and then you can spend a few weeks with Laura and me once a week Before I introduce you to my lovely panel.

Speaker 2:

Now this is the time of the day when you can open your bags and see what is inside, because I would like you to find this postcard. On the back of the postcard, you can find more information about Women in Customer Success and our courses. But I would like you to focus on this front side at the moment, because in the next minute or so, I would like you to think about these words that are written here Radiance, resilience, authenticity or anything else. Now, if you think of one word only, that would really set your year. What would that word be? I would like you to think about it. You have a few seconds and I would like you to share it with the person on your right. Okay, how was that Nice, any words?

Speaker 6:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

Tanya what was your word?

Speaker 3:

My word was resilience. I need it personally, but I also feel that with developments in the world, external environment, me and my team will need a lot of business and personal resilience as well.

Speaker 2:

Resilience. Good one. One last one Luisa. Well, one last one, Luisa, beautiful. Well, thank you for that.

Speaker 2:

The intention of this was just to keep you thinking and trying to get you a bit more focused this year on either becoming more resilient, becoming more intentional, becoming more bold in decision, everything for the purpose of you growing as CS professionals, as leaders, and also to be able to be mindful about yourself and your wellbeing. I have put every single little item in that bag for a particular reason and if you look at it, you will find a coloring book for adults. So it's not the easy, easy animals for little kids. So it's mindfulness coloring book and you have a set of little colors. So when you're in a train or a plane or somewhere, in situations when you just want to scroll on social media, maybe you can just think. Maybe I can be mindful for 10 minutes and just color and not go on social media or not think about the email, or not think about the email or not think about something else. So this is really here for the purpose to give you a little bit of your time with english pukati either radiance, love, joy, anything like that. So think of it as your little, little self-care pack, some evenings, some train rides, whenever it happens. And now the actual reason why you're here.

Speaker 2:

I am super happy to introduce these wonderful ladies that are joining me tonight on this panel, or today before the sunset. Tonight on this panel, or today before the sunset Cara Beneke, sally Stowe and Pia Schumann-Hopp. Now I would like you to introduce yourself much better to the audience. Tell a bit about you, what you do, but also thinking about the weather. What is your favorite ice cream?

Speaker 4:

flavor. Hello ladies. So my name is Cara, I'm from Germany, but I live in Spain since 2016. I'm head of customer success and support now Well, surprise, at WorkFlex. Workflex is a startup scale up, so a little bit that motion that you were in before. And, yeah, my career didn't start in customer success. I don't know who started straight away in customer success their career not the only one.

Speaker 4:

So I used to sell detergent to UK supermarkets very exciting, procurement being my main point of contact and they're very harsh and um and very on point and very direct. So, um, and then I got into the startup world like four years ago, and I actually started in sales and then I thought how strange you have the conversation, you have the sales process and then you sign and then you just say goodbye and I was like what is this? Because in key car management you don't do that. In key car management you are a farmer and a hunter, right, and I straight away thought, okay, I don't like this, I like the farmer part more. And that's when I hopped into customer success and, yeah, I'm very excited to be here, also very excited to network later on.

Speaker 4:

And my favorite ice cream. So I hate ice cream with fruit because I think it doesn't make sense. Ice cream should be something you know. Milky chocolate for you, like strawberry. Ice cream is something healthy with something bad and it doesn't make sense for me. So I would pick stretch the teller hi, lovely to meet you all.

Speaker 8:

I'm sally. Thanks a lot, maria, for having me. I was so excited when you first said that you're going to come to berlin. Um, I am the co-founder of customer obsessing consulting, so we have a boutique consultancy that focuses on either building a customer success team from scratch, which is a lot of times the case in German mid-market companies, but also all the way through to scaling customer success, training CSMs it's the best when we see CSMs being enabled after we've worked with them. And, yeah, I live here in Berlin, so I'm happy that everybody is on my home turf this week.

Speaker 8:

I've been in customer success for four and a half years by now. I came into it in the middle of COVID through a company called Twilio where I did customer success operations and my manager was so great actually my VP that I then founded a company with her, so I follow her around. And my favorite ice cream I'm going to insult you now, cara is sour cherry and I actually already had a bowl. I had a bowl of it today, already earlier this afternoon. It was lovely, it was very sweet, it was very sweet. Thank you, hi there.

Speaker 6:

My name is Pia Schumann-Hoppe and thanks for the invite. I'm not from Berlin, I'm from Hamburg, which is close. I'm the regional vice president for customer success at Seismic, which is I don't know. Does anyone know? Yeah, I see Heads nodding. Laura knows, of course. Yeah, so basically we are a revenue enablement platform which helps your teams go-to-market teams, customer success services, sales to be better, faster, more efficient. So that's kind of what we do.

Speaker 6:

I'm with Seismic almost two and a half years now. I'm in customer success almost seven years and I have a bit the same not the same career as Cara, but I started in shipping. So I studied shipping. I used to commercially manage gas tankers trading all over the world, so really, really different and then, you know, did a few other stops in between and then I came into the German startup scene. I used to work for Braid Hub, which is now Foto I think some of you know that as a key account manager. And then I got approached with a job as a CSM and I was like, what is that? So I did some research, figured out oh, farming, that's what I like. And then that's how I shifted and I'm really happy that I made that step.

Speaker 6:

And ice cream. I like salted caramel and sounds easy but it's not. It's either too salty or too sweet. And if you ever in Hamburg there's a good ice cream shop called um ice ice and innich, which is in Eppendorf, and they do the best salted caramel ice cream. I see some, some heads nodding, so that's good. So I can highly recommend.

Speaker 2:

I hope you're writing notes for that. Thank you, ladies. I would like to see from you, with a raise of hand, who here is a people leader, actually managing other people, managing a team. Very nice, because now I would like us to start thinking about ourselves as leaders and our kind of journey into the leadership. So, ladies, my question for you is when was the first time in your career when you actually saw yourself as a leader? Pia, why don't we start from you? You're holding a mic.

Speaker 6:

Good question. I would say that sounds so a bit. But already in school I thought I wanted to be a leader. I was in a sports school. I was really competitive, really motivated. So I figured out early that if I put a lot of hard work into something, I can be better than other people who may be more gifted than I, but not doing the same amount of work into that.

Speaker 6:

And then when I entered my professional life working in a shipping company, I actually lost a bit of focus because I worked there for five and a half years. I was still the newest employee even after five and a half years. I was still the newest employee even after five and a half years. Everyone else worked there already 40 years. So I didn't see that growth part, even though I was learning. I didn't see really the impact I was making. So I lost that you know ambitious part. And then I think I gained it back when I joined Freight Hub where I could really see the work I'm putting in is having an impact. I can make an impact, I can support people, I can lead people and I think that's where I really yeah, I could see myself being a leader going forward yeah, so I used to.

Speaker 4:

It's a really difficult question, by the way. Thank you, um. So I used to give classes after school to kids for mathematics and English and um, I enjoyed that so much because I saw them coming with bad grades and coming back then after some months with good grades, and that's the moment where I thought, oh, I want to become a leader. I want to be a leader where people get better with my leadership, where people learn, where people see the progress. And I think sometimes it's really hard to find that kind of manager or kind of leader, because a lot of you know, we have a lot of micromanagers, we have a lot of people who put a lot of pressure on it and those are sort of like managers. But I think leaders are really the ones that you know do something, that you become better yourself. So that was my first moment where my little I don't know, I think it was 13 years old came back with two better grades and I was super proud and super happy. But I had the same problem as you had. Maybe the key account manager had a problem. Problem is, you had, maybe the key account manager had a problem.

Speaker 4:

When I came into the professional life. Then I was an individual contributor for six years and working my ass off. I'm allowed to say that myself yeah, um, and I didn't see it. But also maybe because I didn't have the leader who would push me, which, in the end, is actually stupid, because in the end, you have it in your hands, right, you have, you carry in your own hands and you can do the move whatever you move you want to make. So, um, and that's when I then straight away said I think I need to leave this company because the leadership that I see there is not the leadership that I believe in. And that's why I thought straight away again hey, I want to go back to that when I was actually 16, seven years old and really become a leader and not just a manager of people. That's the story.

Speaker 8:

I love that. I'll put the last sentence on a pillow, please. I actually had a bit of a the opposite way around. I had a bit of a trial by fire because I did my training ship in a dual study program that we have here in Germany where you basically study and you already work part of the time, and that was in retail. We were heavily understaffed and the goal was like after three years to start having your own team. But after half a year and mind you, I was like 18 and a quarter they were like well, there's nobody else to take that team, maybe you just give it a try. I was like what the actual hell? Are you stupid? Because literally everybody was double my age and it was purely like the lack of people willing to take the job. And then I got it a bit out of. They pay for my studies, so I do have to follow what they ask of me. And that was a trial by fire. I had that team for close to two years.

Speaker 8:

I mean, it's very different from the tech world. It's very like operational. It's very much shift plans, who goes for smoke when, who comes to work in which clothes, like these type of authority things. But, um, it was a great school cause. I cried in front of my team, I yelled at my team. I, I was very, I was 19 or 20. Like, it was not, not cool of me, but I excused, they gave me the chance to grow. And I actually still have some of them that still text me the updates when they're like no, I was here and now. I was there, I met this supplier and I was like, yay, here you go. But it was a mess, a hot mess.

Speaker 2:

You learn something out of it, right? I think this is so interesting to see so many different ways of seeing ourselves as leader. I remember maybe my story is very similar to you, cara 17, 18 years old. I remember I was doing some of those summer camps when I was in charge of other kids and I remember all my life hearing oh, you're a born leader, you're a born leader, yeah, cool, what does it actually mean? So I had that idea in oh, you're a born leader, you're a born leader, yeah, cool, what does it actually mean? So I had that idea in my mind that I'm a leader, probably because I was typically the one giving ideas and being a huge doer. Okay, let's do it, let's do it, let's do it, let's go and do it without thinking of consequences.

Speaker 2:

So people thought of me as a leader and somehow in my head, yes, I was a leader, but I was not being given a chance to actually manage people. I was studying a lot, doing few degrees, and I was coming to the age where I didn't have a lot of work experience. And then, when I felt I want to go into leadership, no one would give me a job as a leader if I'm an entry level, even after you know masters, know masters and whatnot. And then, okay, I started my career and I ended up as a CSM, and it is the first time in my life. I do believe I was listening to some podcasts where a lady said CSMs, especially, are leaders and you don't have to wait to get a people leader title to be a leader. And I think that my world shifted when I heard it, because when you think about yourself as a CSM, well, you're an absolute leader for your customers because you are the one who is leading everything that has to happen for them.

Speaker 2:

But also just that notion of you lead by example, you lead by doing, by just making things happen. You don't have to have that title to become a leader. That was really something that stayed with me, but then, finally, after some years, I did become a people leader. I didn't cry in front of cried but, sally, maybe I can go back to you, uh, back to the crying out, but you were not ready at that moment. Um, research also shows that when women are applying for roles, they will want to tick all the boxes from the job description, versus for men, it just comes easier. Yeah, I know this one and this one? Yeah, fine, I'll. So, when we want to become leaders and thinking about our next steps, what advice would you give to women who feel that they have to be 100% ready to take on a new leadership role?

Speaker 8:

That's tricky, I would say. Or also, what led me there was just building on what we're really good at, and for me, that's connecting, that's like meeting people, that's having bonds with people and coming through that lens, instead of like having to go by the hard facts but thinking about like, do I like these people? Can I imagine myself working with these people, can I see myself in that position? That made it much more tangible and like much more relatable on an emotional level, instead of looking at like years in role or years in study or grades or whatever.

Speaker 8:

And then also, a huge part is just look at the other people that have these type of jobs, and that is something that now, today, I'm a consultant, so I do see a lot of people in leadership and so many of them have no freaking clue and I'm just like so confused and so, all over the place, a lot of them are men and looking at them today, I would have like a completely different lens into it. Everybody that's in a leadership role is just a human doing their best cooking with water, we would say in Germany. Um, so I think like putting that on top of mind and like realizing this is what's. What's the role intended to do. Do I feel capable of like filling that role and then the rest, disregard whether it's that's like five languages and eight years in that role.

Speaker 2:

It's a really beautiful example. I remember my first manager when I was a CSM was, you know, some years younger than me, which firstly I thought, hmm, okay, let's see. And then she was just so wonderful being vulnerable. That's the first time when I started learning from leaders the vocabulary around yeah, if you're figuring this out, no, I don't know, let's figure out. And I always thought, oh, you kind of have to know which to be a leader. So again, I just had so many of those shifts in my career, Cara, what would you say? What is your advice for ladies who think they have to be 100% ready?

Speaker 4:

Is there anybody who wants to get into a leadership role here? Come on, raise your hands, don't be shy. Ah, you see, bad news, or maybe good news? You can never be 100 ready because and I always thought I need to be like leaders that I admire and that I think that are great leaders yes, they're good examples and they can inspire you, but you have to find your own leadership style.

Speaker 4:

I remember two months ago, my manager and he's a co-founder of the company said Cara, you cannot be friends with your team. Okay, and I was going to hate me for saying this on camera, but anyway, and I said, yeah, yeah, okay, okay. And then I came back home and I said to my husband I don't think I'm friends with my team, but I think they trust me and I think they would tell me if something's wrong and maybe even private things, because I'd know I'd listen, I'd understand, I'd be there for them. I won't serve their private problems. And then I thought, hey, yeah, maybe that's his style, but it's not my style and I need to find my own style.

Speaker 4:

So you're never going to be 100% ready and you're also never going to be 100% grown-out leader. You're always going to learn. There's always different people, there's different cultures, there's different situations. It's different when you work in a little startup than when you work in a huge company, right? So I think that's really important to know and to take that bold decision and say, hey, I'm maybe not a hundred percent ready, but I'm willing to take the challenge and learn as I go, right, and also be open to to your manager and say, hey, it's the first time that I'm leading, I'm probably going to need some guidance from you.

Speaker 4:

And don't be ashamed I used to be really ashamed when I was first leader to say I don't really have a clue what I need to do now, right. So no, don't be ashamed, you can talk to people. Like you know our amazing community. I think the customer success community is the best community because we're people who like to give value to people, right. So take that chance. Connect to other leaders on LinkedIn, wherever in events and I mean you guys are doing it and learn from them and ask questions and ask for advice and ask for help. So that would be my, my comment to that.

Speaker 2:

Perfect, uh Pia, anything you would like to add? Simply, I'm thinking also you're coming from currently, from that background of big, big company where I'm sure that you are seeing so many people you know that in some ways reporting to you and that would like to take that leadership step.

Speaker 6:

I think it totally resonates. You're never ready. You've got to figure it out, you just need to go with the flow. I think I had in my career one point which I think I made the biggest mistake in my career, which was my former job. I was leading the customer success team in Europe and then I got asked from our CMO we were rolling up our CMO if that's the right thing for CS to do. That's a different thing. But if I want to be the director of CS globally, which was Americas and Europe, and I had a three-year-old son and I was turning that down because I wasn't feeling comfortable. I was thinking, oh, time zones, can I manage that? Ah, maybe not. With a small child, you never know. And the new team you know, like how we are as women like, oh no, maybe not, and there will be another person who's better than I I am. And so I turned it down. What then happened is they hired a guy. He didn't do the job, he was not really good. I then stepped up and did his job, for my old salary, obviously, and kind of compensated, and he was the reason why I left the company.

Speaker 6:

So from that moment on, I always promised myself whenever I have an opportunity, I take it. Whatever comes, I take it. Whatever comes, I take it. I'm going to figure it out. I have people I can ask for help and I also think if people ask you if you want to take that opportunity, they would not ask you if they don't think you could be successful. And I think that's kind of what you know. Whenever comes something, just say yes, you're going to figure it out out. There might be a million reasons why it's not the right time, the right place. I mean, I think we all wouldn't get children if we would wait to be ready, the right time, the right place, because it's it's not happening. But I think it's just being confident and trusting and just saying yes.

Speaker 2:

So my lessons learned. Wow, what a story, and I love that lesson. Just say yes and figure it out and do it, and, especially when there are hints coming from other people and other people recognize there is something in you that you could do the job for them, right? The best part of tonight is that you can also ask the questions. Maybe not yet, because I have so many questions here that I want to ask these ladies.

Speaker 2:

Actually, as I'm seeing many of you here, I want to get a little sense of who is not actually from Germany, very good, okay. Who currently lives outside of Germany? Okay, so a few of us kind of traveled to see you all here today Among you. Who live in Germany. Again, who is not actually from Germany? Okay, I really love that, because I love diversity in this room and diversity in across Europe that we are seeing. So, especially as a leader, how do we adapt to different languages, different temperaments, different ways of working, different everything that we are seeing across Europe? Pia, maybe we start from you, because I know that you are on a very high position currently leading EMEA team, but I would like to see that from everybody. Really, I think this is such an important topic to discuss.

Speaker 6:

Yeah, I mean, seismic is an American company, I'm German, my team is German, but also in France, which is quite different, even though we're close to each other. And so I would say so the first thing is, I think it's good if you're culturally aware, I'm aware we're Germans, we tend to be quite direct, which sometimes people think we're rude, but we actually don't mean it that way. I think also the way how we message things are sometimes quite direct, and I try to also reflect that with my team. Sometimes when they, you know, send an email then and then we have our one-on-one. I'm like you know, just read it. If you're not German, you could have said that thank you, or how are you doing, just to not jump right into the topic, things around that.

Speaker 6:

And then, obviously, our customers are also globally, even though they're based in Europe. They have sometimes American teams. So I think it's all about being aware what's the communication style, how can you kind of tie into that? Also, I feel always what's their work-life balance? You know, I used to work for a Norwegian company and we Germans being the first ones in the office and the last ones who left, and you know it was totally normal, I think, just how you know, how is it working. And then I think also especially I think for us in CS how is that hierarchy within the firms and how does that work? Is important for us, especially when we look when we talk about budget renewal. Who are actually the right people we need to talk to and is it?

Speaker 6:

you know, if they quite, or if there is quite a strict hierarchy, is it then the CSM talking to the VP or do I need to come in? I'm not doing anything different than my CSMs, but sometimes it's the magic of the title. I think you all know that right. You send the customer 10 emails. They're not replying. Then your manager sends an email. All of a sudden. You get a reply. So I think it's just being really aware of that and keeping that in mind. Sometimes I'm also when I'm under stress. I type an email. Then I'm like oh no, I need to be a bit more friendly. You know kind of the tone needs to be different. Kind of the tone needs to be different. I think AI can really help with that. It's like you type an email a bit nicer, done off, gone. So leverage that.

Speaker 8:

I would love to throw a book recommendation in here. I don't know if anybody of you has read the Culture Map. It's a yellow book that has a blue. Oh, I love it. So many nodding. It's the best book, like, it's so good.

Speaker 8:

My co-founder that I referred to earlier, amy, she's American and when we first started working together she constantly asked me whether I'm okay, like, yeah, stop asking me, please, because I was just like can we get stuff done? And she's like bubbly all over the place, which is fun, and today it works really well. But we constantly had this, this weird situation where she was like I'm super and I thought she's super fake, like in very hard words, which was never the case on any side. But, um, yeah, she actually recommended me the book and that cleared so many things for me.

Speaker 8:

So it looks at cultures in I think it's eight different um uh perspectives and it goes, for example, low context versus high context, like how direct are we? How much is there between the lines, especially when we interact with the French for example, had a customer offsite this week with French people. It's very different, um. But it also looks at hierarchy. It looks at, um, all different things and it's so interesting because it always has. It has this scale that goes from one extreme to the next and it places the countries Um.

Speaker 4:

So for anybody that hasn't read it, fantastic book yeah, I think you mentioned the most important communications key, right, I think also. So I work in a remote company. It's 100% remote, we don't have any offices and my team is spread over Germany, sweden, spain and Egypt, and we just had Ramadan now and that is really a different culture. So, and I think it's totally fine.

Speaker 4:

So I know a little bit about Egyptian culture and Ramadan, but, you know, didn't know all the details, and I think it's always good to ask and also be curious, right? So we made a rule that when our Egyptian colleagues are in a meeting and they're fasting at the moment, that we don't eat or we don't drink any water, right? So, respect the culture and, you know, openly communicate it. I think that's also important. And, um, and the Egyptians also like to call you boss. I have one Egyptian teacher, hi boss, and I was like stop calling me boss, I don't like it. And he's like, no, but you're my boss, and I said, yeah, but it doesn't feel right. So I think, also try to find that you know empathy and that kind of humor within the different cultures. And, yeah, but I think you mentioned the most important things.

Speaker 2:

I really love seeing all of us here coming from different cultures to Germany now today speaking in English from all of us here whose kind of business language is English all the time? Okay, so for majority so only for some can be probably German. If you're here, very good, I really love hearing that, because after six o'clock my English comes a little bit. The level of my English comes a little bit out of the window. So good, we are all in the same boat.

Speaker 2:

As a consultant, I currently work with a German company and I didn't know the thing about lunch. So there is one hour difference between UK and Germany and I typically put meetings at 11 o'clock right, perfect timing for a meeting. No, you booked again over my lunch, why? And then I realized I'm so sorry, like the lunch is a big, big, big thing and I always used to work for Californian based headquarter company people who work, who barely sleep, they just work constantly. There's no lunch, there's nothing else. So this is such a good thing for me, Like I really know what is the time. I really want to respect everybody's lunch, because I think it's wonderful and you have such an awesome culture of having that lunch together.

Speaker 2:

Okay, shifting gears a little bit, ladies, because we are women here and we are hearing all sorts of different messages for years about you know, how to succeed in your career, how to have it all, how to have it all when you have family, how to have it all when you are, you know, only running for your career. What does it even mean for you, ladies, having it all? Or shall we say, what does it mean having it all at this point of my life? Cara, let me start with you, just because I don't know. You have so many exciting things coming up in your life in the next coming months. I don't know if you need to tell, but I think you're well positioned to start a conversation about having it all.

Speaker 4:

I think you don't need to have it all. I stopped trying to have it all. Really, I think nowadays everybody feels pressure of having their side hustle and becoming a co-founder and doing something here, doing something there. You don't need to have it all and do all. I think the most important thing is that you're happy with what you have, that you set your priorities right, right, that you have your right values. So I'm I have two kids. I'm 36. Okay, I turned 36 yesterday. I have two, thank you. I have two kids and I'm pregnant with my third one.

Speaker 4:

And I told the ladies because they asked me if we're going to come to Gaineside in November. I was like I'm probably busy, I cannot come, come. And then Maria was like oh, now I have to ask you the question about having it all. I just try to survive. So I try to organize myself well, I try to do my best if I can, and I also try to know when I cannot have it all and I cannot do it all. Know your limits and ask for help. You're not more stupid or less confident or less talented if you ask for help, and I think that's that's a really important thing, that everybody has to just yeah, say to themselves hey, what are my priorities, what are my values, and what does having an all for mean me? It's not the same for me, as for Sally, as for Pia, as for Maria, as for all of you. Having it all is different for everybody.

Speaker 2:

I love it so much, especially as soon as I ask you the question what is having it all? You just said no, just forget it. Um, I love it because I I was under that pressure as well and I remember a few years ago, at the evening times, when I was preparing uniforms school uniform for my children. The next day I would feel very guilty because I'm not working and I'm not working on those hundreds and more tasks that have to be completed by tomorrow. And once I realized what I was doing, I started changing things in my life and in my career.

Speaker 2:

And today, for me, having it all means yeah, I do the work that I get paid for, but then I'm taking my kids swimming, which I'm missing right now, taking them to different places, and things that I can see them I can see them after school so many things that were completely different, like even five years ago. And I'm happy that at least the conversations in the world now is shifting more towards what is even having it all. You don't need to have it all. Plus, it is really what's important for you in this particular moment. Any thoughts on that? Pia, I know you're also juggling so many different things in your life.

Speaker 6:

Yeah, I would say I mean, having it all in my sense is, you know, having a family and a career, which is not easy, and I would say you can have it all, but it's not perfect, it's not easy. You can't do it alone. You need a support network. My day has only 24 hours. My husband travels a lot, I travel a lot. Our son would be home alone if we don't have a support network.

Speaker 6:

And I think it's just also really you know making a decision around what's your priorities, what's important for you, what you know, what battles are you fighting. You know, kind of, and also you know if I try to be present, present so if I spend time with my little one, I try to spend time with him and not work, because I know both things doesn't work out. If I work, then I try to work and not jiggle. I mean, sometimes you have to jiggle a sick child, but normally that doesn't work well. So I think really making that priority and then, once you're prioritized, be present in what you're doing, I think is a good way to look at it. But it's not easy and it's not perfect. And I think, like social media always, you know, shows this woman who have a career and kids and they look amazing and it looks all easy. And I think you know nowadays, luckily, there is a bit more, I think, awareness that that's fake, but I think it puts us under a lot of pressure to exactly have that thanks for saying that.

Speaker 2:

What puts you under the pressure, cara? I think you put me on pressure when I see your gorgeous photos on linkedin. They all look so awesome.

Speaker 8:

I'm thinking linkedin is fake.

Speaker 2:

I at least on my end most of the time wondering, ladies, what are your non-negotiables when it comes to work?

Speaker 8:

for me it's probably around times like what times in the day I'm dedicating to work? Uh, especially in my former role at Twilio, also an American company, lots of meetings would be at night or would be like at really inconvenient times. We had colleagues in India. That again was in weird times and in the beginning I tried to attend everything and it was just so unnecessary. And many times, and especially in the age again many times, and especially in the age again, ai summaries, uh, they are so good it's just not necessary. So, wherever possible, like setting boundaries around the times that I'm available and then also when I'm not available, I'm actually not available, which is a bit wild for someone in a young phase of a of a company. But for example, I'm going to be off the week after next and I purposely do things like skiing that time around. You can't have a phone in your hand. It's just physically not possible to be reachable, and I love it yeah, I would like to hear from you non-negotiables for work that's a difficult question.

Speaker 6:

I'm not good in that. I tend to be a workaholic and I think if I wouldn't have a family, laura's laughing. Laura used to be my old manager, so she knows I workaholic and I think if I wouldn't have a family, laura's laughing. Laura used to be my old manager, so she knows I work a lot and I do enjoy it. So I have to just. But I would say my non-negotiable bills come more in from the family side, so we always try. So every evening I'm at home, we have a dinner together with our little one. We sit down, we have dinner, normally block off between six and eight, so we have some quality time together. Obviously that's limited, I would say around. That's my blockers.

Speaker 6:

Obviously, in my role there are late calls, there are early ones. If there are escalations, I'm pulled in, so it's difficult. I definitely need to get better on that. That's, by the way, one of my focuses for this year. To say no. I'm not good in that when it comes to job context. I'm good in private life, but when it comes to the job context I have to say no more often. But I do agree I helps if there's like all hands meeting. I just watch the recording double the speed, so I save 30 minutes.

Speaker 4:

That's what I say to myself, but definitely an area of improvement for me um, so, my, I came to realize that a lot of things that really suck my energies and that are other things that give me energy. So I try to eliminate those ones that suck my energy and try to put focus on ones that give me energy. And, um, I did, I actually have a hey, I have a leadership coach, do you see? And we did a little bit of exercise of what kind of person I am, and there's different. I don't know what the model is called I'm really bad at remembering names but there's different kind of types of people that people can be.

Speaker 4:

You can be various types, and I'm, for example, my base is a thinker, right, so I'm a very logical person. If you tell something you want to convince me, come with numbers and I'm convinced. But then I'm also a very harmonizer, right, so I like harmony, et cetera. Well, my manager is zero harmonizer, okay, and he knows that, and he knows that I'm a harmonizer which. What does harmonizer mean? Harmonizer means it's a person that likes to be appreciated, that likes every now and then, hey, cara, well done, which is actually stupid, right, because I think I'm confident enough to say that I know when I've done something.

Speaker 4:

Well, no, but I need a little bit of that extra. You know the extra push from outside and that gives me energy. So if I hear something like that and I'm hearing a lot of nodding I think that's very woman-like and um. So my non-negotiable actually was with my manager that I told him I need every now and then from you a little bit of TLC, tender, love and care. I know he's also a thinker so we we're very good on that base. So when we talk numbers we're all aligned. But he's not the typical who would say oh, karen, you saved the 250K renewal, well done. Something like no, that's my job, I know that, but at least a little bit of TLC, right. So that was my non-negotiable action that I did with my manager to say, hey, I need it every now and then Because it gives me energy to keep working crazy hours and also work quite a lot. But um, it's just more enjoyable when you know that you're appreciated.

Speaker 8:

So something you just went over real quick, but I think it's a real big one is making time for learning and finding coaching. I think that's a great piece as well. I uh did, uh negotiate that as my bonus last year out as well, that I did a leadership coaching because it's so great. So another non-negotiable and something that I see unfortunately with a lot of the CSMs that we work with, is training developments. They always put it as a blocker somewhere in the calendar but they never actually take it. So maybe that might be a start if you want to actually start setting those boundaries. This time actually has to happen and we force every leader that does capacity planning or that does like time studies with their CSMs like this should be a non-negotiable. I want to reiterate on that.

Speaker 2:

I remember as a CSM from two o'clock in the afternoon. I think that I'm just word for nothing when it comes to work, maybe for an hour or so. It's not that I was ever doing siesta, but I can't work during that time. So I would always take something to learn like a course. It used to be those CCSM certifications, but I just remember when I felt like down during that time of the day, I would start learning or going through the course. At felt like down during that time of the day, I would start learning or going through the course. At least after 45 minutes I would feel useful, cool. I think this is a very cool time for you to start asking questions, but before that I have just one rapid fire question for all of you ladies that you will need to respond very, very briefly. Okay, so if you could swap your role with somebody else's for a day, who would you choose?

Speaker 4:

I would choose my biggest customer and see it from the outside to see what their process. But, like ideally, I want to go through the entire day, through everything from onboarding to you know everything adoption, renewal. But I'd love to be in the shoes of the customer one day, of our biggest customer.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, that was very committed, right, okay, we have time.

Speaker 6:

I think an engineer, because that's a word I don't understand. That's, you know, when they start talking, I can hear what they say, but I actually can't understand. I think it would be nice to have a bit of that background to understand some of the challenges we also maybe face. Yeah, maybe something totally unrelated to what I do right now. Thank, you.

Speaker 8:

Now it works, I think, well done. When you asked that question, something way bigger came to mind. I would love to change with one of those very male, very old leaders that are shaping the world at the moment. I just can't see any any Merz's or Trump's or whomever anymore. So if I get like to actually swap with one, I would probably like to sit in, like our coalition debates right now, and just be like let's what would you?

Speaker 8:

actually tell them. That's what I want. I would do a beautiful mural board and be like people. This is all so freaking, messy and so many historic stuff. That is like influencing these type of discussions right now, and what we do with all our customers is come in with a fresh perspective and laying the land, and I would love to do that.

Speaker 2:

I'm just imagining that. Okay, ladies, I'm gonna be walking here because I would like you to have a chance to ask questions and you can shift mics among yourselves. Who would like to? Get us started, ladies, what?

Speaker 4:

is your secret of not being burned out? Uh, secret of inspiration? I don't know how. How do you recharge now? I had a burnout. Tell us more.

Speaker 4:

Um, I wasn't actually within cs, so I used to work at Unilever and I was a brand manager for Ben Jerry's ice cream. It was my favorite job on earth. I loved it. I was responsible for Germany, switzerland, austria. I took 52 flights a year, that's one each week, and I burned out. I had to stop, I had to pull everything and I had to stop.

Speaker 4:

So what's my secret now? I think it goes a little bit along with, um, you know again that draining energy and giving you energy. So, um, I, yeah, I like to be very mindful also of the hours of work, and I have a husband who has a pain in the ass when he knows I'm working too much. So his role is really to say Cara, it's enough now, you're not going to change the world and you're not going to. You know, people are not going to die if you turn off your laptop now. Now, that sounds like a real alcoholic, but workaholic, not an alcoholic. Let's change topics. But he's sort of my. You know my zone and my person that takes care. Hey, you know you've had enough. Now you probably need a break.

Speaker 8:

To me it's fun hobbies again that you can't think while you do them. Uh, for example, I, I was uh doing the same exercise with the energy Um, oh God. And that course we call it tungsten and drainer, or like energy sources, gas stations and outdoors, and it asks like when are you in the flow, when are you not thinking? And for me that's when I go cycling, rhythm, cycling in like a beat 81, motorcycle, whatever studio, something where the music is so loud that you can't think about things. And I do that two, three times, ideally a week, and it's so good because it like it's this reset because you're not able to think about something, but maybe that's swimming, because you are underwater or it is whatever else, but something that where the brain has to shut off um, yeah, for me it's running actually.

Speaker 6:

Um, I, I can relax when I run and sometimes my team is laughing because I try to run on my lunch break and then I come back it's like while I was running I actually, and then they have to laugh. But for me that's really something which gives me energy. And also meeting friends. My husband is the opposite. He needs to have his time on his own and I can get really get energy from meeting friends. So I'm trying to prioritize that and, um, he also kind of, you know, watches me and sometimes when he feels like I haven't met friends for a while, he's like when are you seeing the girls? Again? You need some energy.

Speaker 6:

But, yeah, I would say there is definitely a risk, especially if you work long hours. So, yeah, and I think there's. You know, the world is not falling apart. I mean, as I told you, I worked in shipping and one of my part of the job was I was managing also the vessel, so I was telling the captains where to go next, what cargo they should be loading, and we were doing gas, liquid gas, and there were refineries waiting for that and then, obviously, people being supplied with that energy so that if something didn't work, that was a problem. They called me at night because someone got sick or they had. You know there was a proper problem. Now it's always tell myself, it's only software, no one's gonna die, and I think sometimes you need that, for you know, once you get in like a stress mode to just relax.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, this is very valuable. Thank you for the question. Just in case I't mentioned, you're allowed to ask customer success-related questions as well, if you really have to. Okay, we have one hand here.

Speaker 9:

Hi, I just wanted to ask how are you creating this one culture when you're in this kind of multinational a lot of cultures? You just said you're working with people from Egypt. How are you trying to put this all under one umbrella?

Speaker 4:

Get together with the team and ask them what kind of team culture they'd like to have. So I think one culture is probably the company culture, that you're not going to change a single person. But within your team, I think you can very much, very well create your own culture, and the ones that build the culture are the people that are in the team, right? So just giving you the example with the Egyptian, I think he dipped really really well into our team, which is full of direct Germans and very different obviously, but I think he knew that and he accepts what the culture is like in Germany and we accept what his culture is like and we try to find sort of like a common ground.

Speaker 4:

It sounds a little bit like we're angry at each other, which is not the case, and we try to meet. Also, right, because we're 100% remote, and with 100%, 100 remote, you need to better have a good communication. So if you're missing a smiley, it could very well be read in another way. So, um, that's why we also try to meet in person and and that's where we actually don't work like we just do team culture things, right yeah, I would agree.

Speaker 6:

I think having fun together is important in order to have a good culture amongst the team. Um, I would also say, because my team is also, we do have offices, but some people also work remote. Um, I normally try to start my one-on-ones with not you know what's, how's the renewal going, how you know what other numbers show me this. I always try to start my one-on-ones with not you know what's, how's the renewal going, how you know what other numbers show me this?

Speaker 6:

I always try to have a bit of a private conversation how was your weekend, how you feeling? Is there anything which bothers you? Just to also have that personal connection instead of just being, you know, the manager or the leader or something like that. And also, I think, if we are ourselves vulnerable in front of our team, that creates a culture as well. You know, I'm not perfect. No one of us is perfect and we all have tough days, tough weeks, you know. And I think being honest and open about that helps also to create that culture where everyone feels like you're in a safe space, you can say whatever you want to say without anyone being angry, or you know something like that.

Speaker 2:

Thank you. There was a question here.

Speaker 5:

I'll be very demanding with my question. So I'm the same vein of culture. We talked about non-negotiables, and so, when it comes to a healthy culture, or fostering that healthy culture, what are the three top non-negotiable values that you think a team should have, for example, an ethos of care, trust, transparency. So what are your top three?

Speaker 8:

for me. Immediately, honesty came to mind. Maybe that goes in line with transparency. You could probably like semantically, like weigh one against the other, but uh, the, the openness, the candidness, the, yeah, being open about things. Maybe that's very german, but the the honesty for me will be on the top three.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I think I'd say transparency, trust and empathy.

Speaker 6:

That will be my top three. Yeah, for me, exactly the same. I would say also, collaboration is a really important one, that people help out each other. You know, we really a team team. Everyone is good at something. Other people are not that good. How can we work together as a team and be successful as a team, not the individual person?

Speaker 8:

I think that's important as well if I may have one thing, a bit to both of the questions.

Speaker 8:

But everything that we just talked about and that you just asked, um, as a trained project manager and as someone seeing that we all kind of would say similar things, but a lot of organizations don't live it. Oftentimes it's just about stating the obvious and documenting that. May it be a one-on-one framework that we all follow, may it be the values that we have in the team. May it be the rules that we set up we also do that within leadership teams that we write a leadership manifesto like these are the things that are important for us. Um, so, asking these exact questions that we asked for answer for us now to your team and then documenting that and keep bringing that back up uh, actually, my former employee was really great at that. Everybody knew these values. They went all the walls, it was lift and everything, and even the strategic goals were tied to these things, and then it becomes like to your point earlier, it's like one and it comes together. But that's just from a practical perspective thank you.

Speaker 3:

First of all, I wanted to say it's really inspiring and interesting to listen to your answers and thank you for that answers and thank you for that. My question is do you use ai in your daily work, and where exactly? To maybe faster, more perfect or more productive, and do you also encourage your teams to use it, and for what kind of tasks?

Speaker 8:

oh, 100, if I may start. Uh, a huge, huge fan, I think. We we subscribe to all the, all the offers, all the enterprise plans. So for me personally, like the very basics are my note taker in meetings. I'm a huge fan of Fathom AI. We just did a whole team account for that. It's fantastic. It ties into your CRM and it kind of deducts tasks out of your calls directly. And today when I first read the first task in HubSpot that I didn't create myself, I was like it's so good that it felt like it read my mind. I was like where does this come from? How would it know? So that's great.

Speaker 8:

All my writing, all my like drafting concise type communication, either do with Gemini or chat GPT or whatever you prefer. Research we have a list of problems for our CSMs that we train that they can put in, for example, perplexity, because it's a bit better with research, and sources Things, just like. I'm preparing for this SBR. Here's my outline. This is the company. Help me to understand their last yearly report, their current hiring plans, their blah, so that they can just plug it in and get this profile of whom they're going to talk to. Uh, I do it. I research my prospects. I research all of that.

Speaker 6:

Um. So we use our own product, obviously for meetings, preparing for a meeting, follow-up, um, which is obviously um having AI behind it, and then we fully subscribed everyone the full team to, or the full company to, a Microsoft co-pilot. So we use that for everything email, research, researching in our own tools. So if a CSM gets a new account, they just type in what should I know about company XYZ? And then you get all the information, everything which has been done in like a cheat sheet. So that's really saving time and then, yeah, I would say that's mainly what we use currently.

Speaker 4:

Gosh, I'm such a beginner. No, so we also use Notetaker, JGPT, et cetera. What I'm currently looking at is an AI tool. No, so we also use Notetaker, JTPT, et cetera. What I'm currently looking at is an AI tool that predicts health scores. So it takes meetings, notes, support tickets et cetera, and detects certain words or things to actually determine a health score. So it's not just a feeling from the CSM itself, but it's a real, based on data thing.

Speaker 8:

But I still haven't found the perfect one. One of my favorite prompts actually is because we talked about personality types early on. If you start to get to know someone and you have a few emails of theirs, it's really great to summarize how this person communicates and then be like I want to convey this message, and for us it's oftentimes negotiating a price or something, for example, and then my lengthy words might not fit their communication style, so adapting it to that is really great. And also, if you have CSMs that you said it earlier maybe you need to talk to a VP or someone in another, in another function. Someone may be very technical. I also love to go in and be like pretend you are the CTO of this certain industry. What would you be interested in or what you'll be thinking about? Very helpful.

Speaker 2:

Very good question. It was one. Do we have one more question or we can end with Anika?

Speaker 7:

Feel honored to end it Maybe, maybe a spicy question actually, um, but ladies, thank you so much for being vulnerable and open. It's been absolutely amazing getting to know who you are. Something Maria said and something Pia mentioned has inspired this question. Maria was just saying how women have to take all the boxes before they apply for a job, and Pia also said that she didn't take the pay rise, and I think something that we don't talk about as women in the workforce is money and finances, and another little stat is most women will take the first salary that's offered to them. They never negotiate anything, and I think there's a big gap that we're still trying to fill as women. So I'm curious to hear you know how have you guys negotiated and climb the ladder or increase your salary, and any tips that you have to share in that way?

Speaker 6:

So Thank you, I would agree that we definitely not as confident in negotiating. I think. So one of the, I think, most successful tactics is when you have an offer, a different offer, you would really go for right. It only works if you're really comfortable comfortable if you don't get the pay rise in your existing company that you then actually make the move because otherwise it's a gamble. So you have to be. You know. I don't know how risk averse you are or not, um, but normally that worked really well.

Speaker 6:

So you know that you set your expectation with your current company. That's what I want, that's what I worth, but also come with numbers. So what have you achieved right, why you are worth the pay rise. And then, if not, you have option b you will be go for because, I mean, let's be honest, there's no one coming around. Oh, you're doing a great job. I give you x amount more right.

Speaker 6:

You need to demand it. You need to come with numbers, show the value you bring, but then also have a other option you would go for in case it doesn't turn out. That's been successful for me and I think in general, obviously, results the results you bring, but in terms of numbers. That's also what I explained to my team, because not only climbing the ladder, but also as an individual contributor if you want to get promoted. What do we have achieved? What's the target we set ourselves? What have we achieved in terms of renewal numbers, but also growth of customers and you know all the other stuff. You need to really be able to report on that and show the value you bring.

Speaker 8:

Otherwise, obviously it's difficult to negotiate any pay rise totally and actually I really like that you bring it up because I think talking about it with others is a major one. Remember, the job I cried at? That was also one that I was really underpaid at because I was the youngest one and, yeah, I was in this study program. So it was a fixed salary, like an Ausbildungsgehalt in Germany, really low training salary, and I mean low, and they never upgraded that because I never asked for it. Also, again, it was a mess, so I wouldn't have.

Speaker 8:

But after a few years and I was at a job for two more years afterwards I only then started talking about it with my older and more male colleagues and I figured that some of them earned double of what I got for the same job. After a while I raised it what I got for the same job. After a while I raced it, but I was also ready to leave, to be honest. So it was easy for me to be vocal about it and I actually had a leader that was like nope, sorry, can't change that, and I quit that same month and I was like no, it just is too much.

Speaker 8:

But talking about it, never asking for it is, I think, a huge gap, and asking for it within a company might be difficult, although we have really well protected. I mean, in the EU you're allowed to ask all these things and they need to give you the answers but also talk amongst your friends, like if I look at my boyfriend and his gang like they talk about these things all of the time and we don't do that that much. And it goes true for the same things, like investing, like which type of EDFfs do you look at? Or how do you find this coin or whatever. Never talked about it before with my friends and now I force my sisters to talk about it with me so everybody share your salary later?

Speaker 4:

yeah, exactly no, I I do the same as pia, so I always try to have one foot outside the door to know my worth. If you don't do that, then you don't know what you're worth, right and just. I mean, obviously you don't want to put them under pressure and it sounds a little bit like the renewal with the customer we're going to resign if you're increasing prices, but in the end it's a negotiation right and you need to know your worth. If you're increasing prices, by the end it's a negotiation right and you need to know your worth. And I think one important thing to what you just said you also have to know your numbers and how you perform. I think it's more than that.

Speaker 4:

I think the problem that I used to have when I used to be an agent or a contributor for six years and I was never promoted and I got so frustrated, was because I only saw it from my perspective and not from the company's perspective, right? So I made it about me all the time. Now I'm giving away my whole workshop for tomorrow's artist circus, but anyway, um, and I think that's a huge problem I had people from my team come up to me and said, hey, cara, I used to be senior CS and she was a CSM on my team. Yeah, and I want to go back to being a senior CSM and that was her speech to get promoted. And I was like, yeah, but you're here, you're not there, right?

Speaker 4:

So I think you really need to show, like, what kind of impact are you making to the company? What does it mean for the company when they put you in this higher position? Right? So I got promoted into. So I got promoted twice now in one and a half years, because I now got it, I could finally make click, because I didn't make it all about me, I made it about the company. I said to him if you're going to put me in a leader position, I will make those other rise and make the whole department better, because I delivered A, b, c, d and then have your numbers, of course, right. But I think you need to really step backwards and look from the outside, rather from the company perspective, rather than only yourself.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, ladies, for that. I would also double down on what Sally said about asking male colleagues. I heard that advice from somebody. When you want to know what people are earning, don't speak with a woman on your team, but speak with the guys, because then that's how you get to find out. I may be wrong, but I don't think that anyone got fired ever just because they asked for a rise. So you can always ask for more money, but it has to be backed with, obviously, all your impact that you are bringing to the company and what they could. How could they benefit from either paying you more or investing in you in other ways, depending what is the negotiation? It's all about kind of exactly what you said from the company's perspective and also understanding when are they promoting, when are they increasing salaries? Is there a particular cycle within the year? Just prepare yourself with some of that research in advance. Can I just add something to that?

Speaker 4:

yeah, maybe because that's also something that stopped me, or hold me back a little bit. Oh, but the promotion cycle is still, like it's still six months to go, so I'll wait a month before that. And then I talked to my manager. No, talk, like if you guys, those people that rose their hand before that, who want to come into a people leadership role, on Monday you're going to go to your manager with a plan Okay, and backed up with data, but with a plan you're going to tell them I'm working on getting promoted, this is what I'm doing. What's your feedback? What would you? What advice would you give me? Because he's, or she's the first one you want to have as an advocate? Right, if the manager is not the advocate and she might only be the only one who decides it, right, there's probably a promotion committee. But don't wait, like. You need to know those cycles. I've had so many colleagues who got promoted outside of those cycles. Right, don't wait for the cycle. I just wanted to add that.

Speaker 2:

The first person that I promoted was the person that we had that conversation about what he wanted to be during the interview. So I know throughout the whole years that he was working where he would like to go. It was helping me as a manager so much knowing where some of the people from my team want to go and again, that's up to us to tell others. No one will read our minds and thinking, oh, she would like to become XYZ next year. No, it has to happen from us. Ladies, thank you so much for your amazing insights, for sharing experiences, for coming here from some of you from different places. I'm really happy that we had this conversation. Thank all of you for being here.