Ep. 20: Building a Culture of Connection in AEC

Are you ready to step up as a leader in the AEC industry? This episode of AEC Groundbreaking Growth explores the critical skill of building a culture of connection. 

 Our guest, Tony Smith, of R&R Engineers-Surveyors, shares his insights on fostering collaboration across teams in the fast-paced AEC environment. Learn how to break down departmental silos and encourage a more holistic approach to projects. Discover strategies from Tony on how to motivate and retain top talent by creating a sense of belonging and purpose within your team. This episode is your guide to building a strong and connected team, a key ingredient for success in the AEC industry. Tony dives into practical strategies to implement to build trust and open communication, setting you on the path to groundbreaking growth.

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Transcript

Emily Lawrence: Welcome to the AEC Groundbreaking Growth Podcast. 

Jen Knox: Hosted by Stambaugh Ness.

[Opening Credits]

Emily Lawrence 00:30

Hi, everyone. Welcome to AEC Groundbreaking Growth. This is Emily here with my co-host, Jen Knox. We di d take a little bit of a summer break last month. Just because everyone has been enjoying the summer weather, and we are ready to jump back in today to our next episode, and I will let Jen introduce our next amazing guest.

Jen Knox 00:53

Yeah, we are excited to have all of our listeners back with us today and also really excited to introduce our next guest, Tony Smith, who has some incredible insights around building a thriving company culture within AEC. He's actually the co-CEO and president of a survey and civil engineering firm, R&R Engineers, based in Denver, Colorado. And, Tony, before we really jump into the impact you've had on that company culture, I would really love to kind of get you to tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey as a leader within AEC.

Tony Smith 01:30

Sure, yeah. Thanks for having me first. So, I grew up in the Wyoming, Colorado area, and my father was a surveyor, and I knew I did not want to follow in his footsteps. He was working hard. It was long days. He would always have the best tan, though. I don't want to work there.

Jen Knox  01:52

It's always a plus in construction and engineering field.

Tony Smith 01:54

Right. So, I worked at the summer jobs that you would through high school. Working at, at the time, it was at Eagle Hardware, and I just like to be creative and build things. So it attract me to it. He kept telling me that whatever I do, I had to learn a trade.

So, I was like, I don't know what the trades are like, what are trades? And then he's like, well, surveying is a trade. It's always needed, and you can always fall back on it. But there's lots of trades out there. Do some research. And of course, I didn't do any research because I was in high school. And when, during the summers, I would start working for him, because he always paid a couple bucks more an hour.

So, I made more money than my friends, just glorious. This is pretty awesome. And I ended up kind of falling in love with building things, right? You work on something, you see a building go up, and every time you drive by that building, you just have that sense of gratitude. And it was just I had never experienced that before.

So again, I didn't want to follow in his footsteps. So, I decided to go to school for firefighting. And I thought, well, I love helping people, and this is a great way to impact a lot of people is by becoming a firefighter. So, I went to school full time, worked full time, and studied to be a firefighter.

And then I found out that it was a year long wait to get on to a crew, and I was like, what am I going to do with my time? This is a year away. Like I don't know what to do. So, I went back to surveying because it's what my dad was doing, and he was hiring. So, I worked for him and I ended up falling in love with it just because I was outdoors.

I set my own schedule, and I really had this sense of, I don't know, appreciation for everything that I was accomplishing, whether it be, you know, staking a pipeline for the day or a building or seeing something come to fruition. And it was just a sense of gratitude that I always felt. You felt accomplished every single day.

And after that, I decided during that year that I had to wait. I really enjoy what I'm doing. Why am I focused on firefighting? What if I commit full-time to surveying, and what does that look like? So, I decided to just commit everything to it and dive right in. And every job that I did, I tried to do the best that I could.

So, whether it was out in the field working with sub-consultants, I wanted to build relationships and serve them because that's what I was there to do, was to give them stakes so that they knew exactly where to put the pipeline, where to put the curb and gutter, where to put the building. And we ended up becoming kind of like the psych superintends on job sites. So, focused on that, it allowed us to really think differently and be a part of the project team versus just a sub-consultant.

We were actually part of the team because we were helping guide everybody on the job site for what they needed, and that felt different to me. It felt empowering, right? So, it's just like, I'm the leader here. Yeah, I really realized it at the time. Looking back, it's easier to see. But at the time, you're just like, oh, this is fun.

We're outside. We we're building things. You know, the weather's great. Even when it was cold, it was just different because everybody knew each other on the job site. And it just became this kind of culture and this team that came together even though you didn't know each other. So, I kind of grew up throughout that and focused on, like, building my own skill sets, and I want to say every job that I've changed, every company that I've changed. I always wanted to learn something new. So, if I had done schools at this job, then I wanted to learn how to do high rises at the next job. I had done high rises, and the next time, I changed jobs, and I wanted to learn how to do highways. So, I was trying to diversify what I learned as a surveyor so that I could continue to build up my skill set.

I knew that my path in surveying was to kind of be the what my dad was, which was running a survey group, and I knew that that was my path. And he kind of set some goals of what I needed to get licensed. So, I didn't go to school for surveying. Colorado now requires a four-year degree. But at the time, it didn't. So, it was kind of a long path. And I had to put in the time under a PLS. So, I focused on working with a PLS and learning everything that I could so that I could become a professional. Then I sat for the LSI when I was 25ish and past that, and then I sat for my PLS, which both exams are eight hours. So, it's like taking the BAR. It's not fun. It's a lot of study hours, that's for sure. So then I focused on passing that PLS and ended up getting it when I was 30, which was my goal. So, I did it the hard path, which was a different path. It was the path that I wanted. School wasn't for me. I enjoyed parts of school, but at the same time, I didn't enjoy parts of school because I didn't know what I wanted to be. And I still didn't know what I wanted to be once I got my PLS. 

I enjoyed surveying, but I didn't love it. I wasn't sure what I loved. I couldn't figure it out for a long time. And as I changed kinds of jobs and careers like companies, not that career, but changed companies. Each company offered a little bit different to me. Looking back, I can recognize all those things, but at the time, I didn't.

At 28, I got asked to start a survey firm for a general contractor, and I had staked for this general contractor lots of his job sites, and it just kind of my dad and I started our own business in 08. Terrible timing. And it was just gotta do something different. So, I ended up getting a phone call from this general super, and I decided to take the leap and see where it took me.

It was a good opportunity, and I grew that for five years. Built it up to five survey crews within the construction company. And then I plot there. I wanted more, I wanted to do, I wanted to continue growing, and I felt like I had mastered it. Right. Know how to manage these people, which was kind of my first experience of managing people.

But I brought the team together. I had grown them. We were working very efficiently, and I was, what do I do with this? I tried to diversify, but it just wasn't the right fit for the company. They didn't want to diversify. They had their kind of niche, and they were just supporting themselves. So, I ended up taking a leap and coming, taking a step backward and coming back to R&R.

And when I came to R&R, it was kind of a mess. You just had a lot of people with no direction. We didn't have very good leadership at the time, and I could see problems everywhere. And was just like, "Why aren't we doing it this way? And weren't we doing it that way?" I started to question a lot of things.

So, I started to push back, towards the leaders and towards the owner, and just say, what if they do it this way? And what if we change this? And how do we cut these, you know, losing people? We're losing people like crazy, good people. Where are we losing people? Why do our clients want to fire us? What is going on? How do we change this? So little by little, I started to make little tweaks that I could from my position because I did take a step backwards. I ended up leaving about a year later, and they asked me to take over. So, I jumped at the opportunity because it was kind of back to where I was. Okay, this is where I feel like I can drive change and I can get the teams moving in the right direction. When I did that, we ended up growing from 12 people on the survey team to 30 in about 16 months.

Jen Knox 10:04

That's crazy. Amazing.

Tony Smith 10:06

And again, I felt like I was pretty young, you know, it's like, one year old, and I just grew this massive team. I've never done this before, and then you realize, oh, man, I forgot to put in all these procedures and processes. You kind of realize what's broken because then it's chaos. It's all these crews going everywhere and there's just no rhyme or reason to it.

Everybody's meaning well; they want to do the right thing, but we're not all doing it the exact same way. So, it created a lot of inconsistencies. Even though our clients didn't necessarily feel it or know it. Internally, we definitely felt it. So, we had to kind of slow it down and start to build the structure behind it and building the processes and building the procedures that we needed to kind of operate much cleaner.

At that time, I really realized what my passion was. It really wasn't surveying. I enjoy the history behind it. I enjoy following in the footsteps, leaving legacy buildings and, you know, monuments everywhere. It was just amazing. But it didn't drive me. What drove me was the people. And working with people to change them, to see their potential, and to help bring everybody together to solve the problem. We all see the same end goal, and we start to work towards that goal. We chip away at it, and you start to move the needle a little by little. I got a little bit older, and I started to lose that sense of gratitude like, I don't have any accomplishments, like I'm not accomplishing anything.

I didn't know how to do that for a couple of years and realized that all my accomplishments are actually through others. Because they're doing the bulk of the work, they're out there staking the building. They're doing the calculations. They're solving the problems. I'm just bringing them all together and guiding them and helping them see those bigger pictures differently.

And it took me a long time to kind of realize that as a leader, and I get a sense of accomplishment through them. I see them accomplish all the great things that are in front of them. And how we come together as a team. So that's kind of been my journey up to this point as a leader.

When I grew it to 30, and we kind of built the processes and stuff, my owner came to me and said, I want you to run the company. Of course, the first thing I thought of was that I went to school for firefighting.

Jen Knox 12:35

Over my head. Like me.

Tony Smith 12:41

He said, “You know what you're doing more than most that I've seen. Just continue what you're doing and start applying everything you've learned to the rest of the business.” Of course, I see it as an opportunity and growth, and I'm like, well, let's jump in and go. So, I jumped in and it kind of helped me get to the point that I'm at. And I never thought I would be a co-CEO and president. I thought I'd be part of the survey group, and that would kind of plateau, and that was going to be a great career. No idea what lead to where I'm at today. 

Jen Knox 13:14

Well, Tony, what I love about the story you just told there is, you know, you started out by talking about that passion for survey and really being kind of that coordinator on site and pulling people together and kind of the team focus of serving and getting to this end product. And I think that is what you see in every point of your career and your career success.

Now as a leader, it's pulling the people together and again, seeing the product that they're delivering for other people. When we first started chatting a month or so ago, the thing I loved about your philosophy as a leader and how you look at company culture, is this desire to truly understand your employees, and to know them and know their passions and their strengths?

Can you kind of take us through why you think that's so important for leadership and what it's done for your company culture?

Tony Smith 14:15

Sure. When you have turnover, and you watch really good people, friends, and colleagues, and they walk out the door, you don't understand why it really makes you think. What are we doing wrong? What do we need to do differently? And then it got me to the point of, well, why do people leave businesses?

So I started googling, why do people leave businesses? Why do you change jobs? And I started just kind of putting my own research together. I realized that the top five reasons had nothing to do with the money. Most of us try to solve it with money will pay them more, and they'll stay and give them a bonus, and they'll stay.

And of course, those are, you know, you learn that those are not correct. It's really not what drives us. So, I had to understand who we were individually and as a team and how do we shift that and drive that differently. So, I looked at the top five reasons why people leave a business, which was conflict with the boss, conflict with a coworker, professional development and growth, acknowledgment or appreciation, feeling valued, and culture.

I knew that culture, I could influence culture, but a culture is made up on its own. And it's not ping-pong tables or anything. It's creating the right people in the right room and letting them do what they do best. That's your culture? Everything else is just adding to it or influencing it in different ways.

So, the conflict with the boss and the coworker, immediately you look at your problem, people like, who do I remove? Who is the drama? And we've always talked about what is good drama and what's bad drama. Right? You really want good drama. We want people talking about the problems they solved, not the problems they have or the hurdles that are in the way, but how they're going to get through them.

So, we started talking, working through kind of how do we get rid of the people that are really negative. And we started to remove those people, and we really shifted our focus onto removing them. And then we looked at the next step, which was, okay, if we've removed all the kind of the negative Nancies, how do we focus on professional development?

So, the only way to think about professional development is getting to know the people. We have to ask questions, just like I would when I was young, I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grow up.

It's amazing how many people still say that today. And they're in their 40s.

They're in their 50s. I don't know what I want to be when I grow up. That's okay. But if you're in a really good position and you're in a career and you want to advance that career and you want to keep growing, that's what life is, is just growth. How do you continue to grow as an individual? Because when we plateau, we get stagnant, and we want to move on.

We want to make a change, and most people will make that change. After about two years of plateauing. They just get stagnant. They get bored. They just don't realize why they're stuck. That's because nobody's helping them guide or see that kind of next step, that next, way to just move their own personal needle and keep driving forward.

Jen Knox 17:32

Yeah. It's like the next challenge almost. To your point, you get stagnant, and you need, there are individuals that need that continuous learning or continuous challenge. And oftentimes it's hard to find that yourself as an employee. But if you have a leader that comes to you and can communicate like, hey, here are some, you know, stretch opportunities I think may pique your interest, is that something you want to explore.

Emily Lawrence 17:56

Yeah. Exactly. Having a leader who believes in you and wants to tap into you instills that in you. I think sometimes they can see things that you would not see in yourself. Just like, are you sure? I went to school for firefighting, and you want me to lead this company? And it's like, yes, you do things, and I see things in you that I don't see in anyone else.

And that, I mean, that's motivating, that's pride, that's building, that's growth, and that's a company and a leadership team that believes in you, which I think is huge.

Tony Smith 18:31

And it takes leaders to recognize that some people are outspoken, some people aren't. And they don't know when to say or what to say or how to say. So. If you treat everybody the same and you create kind of a process out of it, not the people are process, but you got to be kind of process driven and in a sense that you talk to everybody and you treat everybody at the same level like everybody's going to move their needle.

We don't know what level everybody's at, but we got to figure that out. I started to ask a lot of people a lot of questions. Where are you at? How do you want to get to the next level? What do we want to do with it? Well, obviously, as they grow and they start to accomplish those things, because you build like a training program around those things or, you give them a roadmap of just setting some goals, some smart goals of how to just keep growing.

Now, when you start to acknowledge that which is the fourth one, it's easy to acknowledge those things. It's easy to give praise because you're watching them constantly grow. You're crushing it. You're moving up. Look at all the AutoCAD you learned, or look at how you started to lead this team, or look at how you managed that project to that client.

And it becomes very apparent to everybody and it becomes a culture around gratitude and appreciation for one another. But it's also, culture of challenging each other and embracing change because growth is actually change. Right? And change is actually growth. So, we're constantly pushing ourselves to be better. And if we look at our world today, it's changing by the second.

And if we stayed the same would become dinosaurs and become obsolete. So, we have to look at change as something that is allowing us to grow, and it's allowing our team to grow, and we're embracing it. And when we embrace it, it allows us to just continue to do great things. And then your culture, the top fifth one, it's exactly what you wanted it to be, which is a lot of really good people working together, solving problems, and driving the best thing that they can for their clients and for themselves.

Emily Lawrence 20:42

Yeah. So, as you mentioned, you've done an incredible job taking your team from 22 to nearly 70 in 5 years, which is incredible. You mentioned identifying those top five reasons that people leave the firm, removing anyone that was negative, and really getting to know your employees. And you also mentioned some of those processes that you needed to get into place. How did identifying all of those challenges guide your framework as you were taking on this leadership position, putting some processes in place, and internally helping people grow? What were some of the specific processes that you put in place?

Tony Smith 21:31

Processes? One of the processes that we did was one-to-ones on a monthly basis. So, every team member should have a 1 to 1 on a monthly basis that allows for open communication. One, get to know your people. Usually, the first 3, 4, or 5 meetings are really getting to know that person, and then you can start to add in professional development steps within that. Because now you understand that person, and you know what they're trying to work towards. And now it becomes much easier on coaching and mentoring them, working with them. So that was kind of a 1 to 1 process. The other thing that we built in was daily check-ins.

So one of the things that we try to get to is that all leaders and project managers should check in with all of their team members at least twice a day, once in the morning, mid-morning, and once in the mid-afternoon. The kind of morning is they've already kind of ramped up for the morning. They're kind of working on something, and you can answer some questions very quickly. What are the issues? What are the hurdles? Let's pre-prioritize. Get our time management down. Let's make sure that we're on these right tasks. Then, the follow-up is: How are we doing with those? For me, it was an opportunity to praise my staff for how much they had accomplished. It was a second opportunity for me to answer any questions because they always hit roadblocks at some point in time.

They also know that I'm going to be there twice a day, and they've got two opportunities, no matter what, that I'm going to be there. So, it creates that consistency of presence and allows them to save questions and know that I'm going to come to them twice a day. They can ask those questions, and then they can accomplish a lot.

Of course, if they get stuck, they can come at any time. But once they have a case, they understand it, and they work, or they work through it differently. And then in the afternoon, they also know that we can kind of gauge our future, our next, our tomorrow, with what's happened today, what did we get accomplished or what didn't we get accomplished? And how do we reframe our schedule for the next day or the next week so that we can constantly look ahead instead of being on a fire drill?

Jen Knox 23:48

And I think that process, Tony. Did you get pushback from leaders in doing that? 

Tony Smith 23:54

Of course. 

Jen Knox 23:56

Always right? I think sometimes, as an employee, what I can find disheartening, and I felt at other firms. You know, it's okay; we have these check-ins. But you know project work is project work. Things are going to come up, you know, oh, let's move it, let's shift it, let's cancel for today, etc..

You really have to have leaders who are committed to meeting with those employees and saying, hey, this is a priority. It's a priority for ensuring my employees feel supported and that the client gets the work they need, quality work, etc. So, how did you manage through maybe some of that pushback from the team?

Tony Smith 24:36

Well, it's helping them see the bigger picture, right? And a lot of us see it as a hurdle because it's hard to get out of your comfort zone. Engineers and surveyors solve problems, and they're notoriously introverted. It's actually pretty extroverted once you get to know them. You start to talk to them and really build a rapport; they're pretty extroverted people. So getting them kind of out of their comfort zone and realizing that, hey, there's more to this, and it's a bigger picture. And it's not just this problem right in front of us. They slowly embrace it. But it took some time. Right? Because it's not a habit they're used to. And you want me to go talk to all these people and interrupt them in their work?

It's scary. And it's.

Emily Lawrence 25:31

Like. Yes, that's your team. Yes, you got this? Yeah.

Tony Smith 25:36

Exactly. Initially, it got pushed back quite a bit because I didn't want to do it. And it wasn't that they pushed back. It was just they just didn't do it. And as they started to do like once a day, then they realized what they accomplished in that 15 minutes because that 15-minute check-in turned into an hour because they had all sorts of questions. And then they learned, wow, this person was really stuck. And I think the biggest mistake that we make is that when we hire somebody, we assume they know exactly how to do that way.

I hire a design engineer. Okay. You've been doing this for four years. You know exactly what you're doing, so go. And they don't talk to them. They train them. They just put them into the position and assume that they know how to do it. Or they hire a PM and they say, you know, exactly how to manage. Well, they know based on their experience and previous experience. We don't know if that experience was good, bad or fits into what we're trying to accomplish or how we're trying to accomplish it.

The only way we learn about this is by doing the check-ins and getting to know our staff. So, we really have to understand each person. And initially, it was easy because I was doing all of it. But as we grew, it was, this isn't going to work; I gotta have more people doing this. I gotta build layers into this, and I've got to start getting all of the managers to do this at every level because we all need it.

And when people check in with other people, one, it's just good to see people and build that camaraderie. At the same time, we all want a little bit of direction on where headed and what we're trying to accomplish. Otherwise, we're just working on the day-to-day, and it becomes kind of complacent, and it just becomes mundane, and it's the same thing over and over.

But when we talk about the bigger picture, what our goals are, and what we're trying to achieve, boy, it's a whole different perspective. Because now you know why you're doing what you're doing. You know why you're designing what you're designing. Not that we don't know that. But tying it to that bigger picture all the time gives you a whole different sense of gratitude towards it. And it gives you a sense of purpose.

Jen Knox 27:40

That constant reminder or connection to purpose, because you do get lost in the day-to-day and forget why it's important, why it matters, and how it's contributing to something bigger. And I love how you've separated that kind of monthly check-in on development and goals with the day-to-day because then they each have dedicated space and time to focus on development.

And then kind of check what, I think, is so important overall.

Tony Smith 28:09

Well, it's you're not giving direction, right? You're not there to tell them what to do. It's not micromanaging. You're there for them. You're there to answer their questions and guide them. And it becomes easier for both parties because we've built this rapport together. We're now equals. 

Exactly. You're entrusting.

Emily Lawrence 28:35

Yeah. There's a mutual trust, and especially, I think when you're developing those consistent check-ins, and they know that they can count on you to be there to answer questions, they know you, you'll be there to listen to their ideas or listen to how something could improve. Like, I think that's the way you build trust and rapport like you talked about.

Is that mutual? I know what to expect. I know what you expect from me. Let's start there and see what we can build on this team.

Tony Smith 29:07

And it's the foundation of every relationship, right?

Emily Lawrence 29:09

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. 

Jen Knox 29:11 

Very, very true. So, Tony, you had talked about kind of that time period before R&R when you kind of had a little bit of that entrepreneurial bug, had your own kind of survey group and company within, you know, supporting that GC, etc. When we think about kind of next-gen leaders within AEC, and some may be interested in kind of starting their own business or leading a group in a team, how would you encourage them and what would be your advice to think, you know, in regards to kind of risk and taking opportunities?

What advice would you give to young AEC leaders that are interested in leading teams or starting their own businesses?

Tony Smith 29:55

Sure. I would say be patient with yourself. One is everybody tries to go too fast, and they try to jump in, and they feel like they know everything. And I can tell you, I don't know everything. I don't know anything. Yeah, some days I just, yes, there's a lot to learn, and we're all learning, and it's okay. So have grace with yourself. But at the same time, how do you see the opportunity? Are you able to see it? And do you need somebody to help you see that opportunity. So, having a coach and having a mentor is a game changer. That helped me see a lot. I didn't get a coach at all about nine years ago. But it helped me see the world a little bit differently or talk through the things that I saw on a whole different level because they're an unbiased opinion. So I would say have patience with yourself. Learn everything that you can learn and continue your own personal growth. Every opportunity that you get should move your personal needle somehow, someway.

If you're changing jobs and you're going for like for, like, is it going to move your needle? Is it really a good opportunity for you to grow? If you're going to start your own business, obviously, you're going to grow a lot because there's a lot to learn, and that's an awesome opportunity. It's also scary, and there's a lot of dynamic involved.

Having a coach who's kind of been through that, you can bounce some of those ideas. So you don't have so many failures because we learn from those failures. But at the same time, we got to be successful at this business. Having that coach that's been through a lot of that or that peer that you can bounce ideas off of, I would absolutely say, keep pushing yourself, drive forward, and don't hold back because when the opportunities come, they don't last. And, if you take that opportunity, you never know where it will end up. I shouldn't have ended up here.

Emily Lawrence 32:08

I love that saying of, you know, when you're looking at a new opportunity or looking to make a career move, is this going to move my needle? I love that; I think that's incredible advice. So Tony, thank you so much for sharing your journey and insights with everyone; from the importance of building a culture of connection, leading through challenges, and really embracing that entrepreneurial spirit and the AEC industry, you've given us so much to think about and given our next generation leaders in the industry, so much to think about.

Thank you to our listeners for joining us on this episode of AEC Groundbreaking Growth. We will be back next time. So, Tony, thank you.