435 Podcast: Southern Utah
Explore the heartbeat of Southern Utah with the 435 Podcast, your go-to source for all things local in Washington County. Stay ahead of the curve with our in-depth coverage, expert analysis, and captivating interviews. Whether you're a resident or visitor, our podcast is your key to unlocking the latest happenings and trends in St. George and the surrounding areas. Tune in now to stay informed and connected with our thriving community!
435 Podcast: Southern Utah
What's the Future of Golf Course Management in Southern Utah?
Can Macrae Heppler's bold proposal for three six-hole courses at St George Golf Club revolutionize the game of golf and make it more accessible to busy individuals and families? Join us as we explore the innovative concept that promises a quick 60-minute round of golf, potentially transforming the sport's accessibility and appeal. We also take a trip down memory lane, reminiscing about the history of golf in Southern Utah and discussing the city's pivotal role in establishing and maintaining these green spaces. From the development of Dixie Red Hills in the mid-1960s to the impact of major infrastructure developments, we cover it all.
As the debate heats up, we delve into the contentious issue of city-owned versus privately-owned golf courses. We weigh the economic and social benefits of city courses, which offer affordability and accessibility, against the higher costs and profit motives of private facilities. Our discussion extends to the broader responsibilities of the city in managing public amenities, such as parks and golf courses, and the significant water usage involved. We consider alternative uses for this precious resource and debate the merits of continued public investment versus privatization, with Macrae Heppler offering unique insights into these complex financial dynamics.
In our final discussion, we tackle the future of municipal golf course funding and its impact on community resources. We evaluate the financial costs against the broader benefits these courses provide in terms of community engagement, tourism, and quality of life. From the philosophical questions about government investment in non-revenue-generating amenities to the strategic planning necessary for sustainable growth, we cover the spectrum of opinions. Join us for a balanced and insightful conversation with Jeremy Larkin, Macrae Heppler and Robert MacFarlane as we navigate the intricate world of golf course management and its implications for the future of Southern Utah.
Connect with Jeremy Larkin at https://www.gostgeorge.com/
Connect with Macrae Heppler at https://www.youtube.com/@macraeheppler
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#Golf #SouthernUtah #CommunityImpact #StGeorge
[00:00:00] Intro.
[00:12:28] City's Role in Golf Debates
[00:20:26] City Budget and Public Investment Debate
[00:27:11] Debate on Golf Courses' Future
[00:31:59] City Golf Course Economic Debate
[00:41:24] Economic Development Perspectives
[00:46:00] Reevaluating Gold Course Investment Options
[00:52:24] City's Decision-Making & Community Engagement
[00:58:10] Public Golf Courses & Economic Debate
I would like people to comment when they see this, wherever they see this. If McCray Hepler's proposal of a three times six hole, three, three six hole courses at the ditch St George Golf Club were proposed and you could go golf in 60 minutes, would you be more liable to go play golf? And of course, there's no one here in the audience today? Yeah, but that is a fun question. Please comment.
Speaker 2:Like is that idea? Does it?
Speaker 3:have wheels To me I'm like dude, if I could go play for an hour.
Speaker 1:Call it 90 minutes, because you got to drive down there. It'd be so awesome. Mal says yes, she's in Mal says yeah, we got one. Yeah, Mal with Blue Fund Media.
Speaker 2:I would even do it.
Speaker 1:I would even do it as well, and you'd be more likely to take your boys and have that experience.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, it's a great it's a great opportunity for the whole thing. I think your idea is great. I think it it comes down to. A fundamental piece is that when this idea gets presented to the city council, they are going to have to go to the citizens and justify it, and I want to make sure that we're looking at the options.
Speaker 1:Hey everybody.
Speaker 2:Thanks for tuning in to the 435 Podcast. We've got a special episode. It's a Family Matters episode. I got Jeremy Larkin, born and raised here, mccray Hepler, born and raised here. We're talking about your favorite topic water and golf. It's a third rail in Southern Utah. We hope you enjoy this episode. Mccray and I argue a little bit about it. No love lost, but it was a great episode. We hope you enjoy it. Make sure you follow us, like, subscribe, share this out with your friends and family. Also, the Housing Action Coalition is meeting for their annual forum on October 30th, black Desert Resort. You'll want you definitely want to go there. If housing affordability is important to you, make sure you hit that up and we'll see you out there. Guys, enjoy it. What is the history of golf in Southern Utah in a nutshell?
Speaker 1:The history of golf in Southern Utah. Really the most important part of the of the history of golf in Southern Utah is when I didn't make the Dixie high school golf team in 1990 and Alan Orchard to this day. And then we're going to and this is actually going to play in perfectly. You know Alan, he's a great guy. This is actually going to be on the air now. Still at Red Hills? I don't even know.
Speaker 2:Alan, this is the outsider. I showed up. I was born and raised. I showed up. Well.
Speaker 1:McCray did make the team.
Speaker 3:No, I didn't play golf oh you didn't play golf.
Speaker 1:I wish I did. I show up I'm like it's 10th grade and to make the team you went to Dixie Red Hills, which is part of the history of St George Golf. We're going to weave this right in the foundation. Yeah, and you played nine holes and how you played that day, that was it and I left and I cried I think I was in ninth grade. I cried and Alan, like maybe a couple of years later, said I think one of the great mistakes I did is I didn't.
Speaker 1:Uh, that I made is I didn't allow you to be on the team, cause we had this really fun friendship that started when I was playing golf up there as a kid. You could go to, to Dixie Red Hills, which is where golf started. So when I was a child, two bucks, so we go play for a dollar at Dixie Red Hills and our parents and drop us off there in the summer, and that would have been like 90, 87, 88, right then. So St George is cruising along, guys, and suddenly, probably like mid 1960s, they figured out two things we should have a golf course and we should have air conditioning, real air conditioning, and we should change the freeway from being the St George Boulevard to Interstate 15. They opened Dixie Red Hills, which is when did it open?
Speaker 3:It's unbelievable Mid-60s, mid-60s. Essentially, we were a gas stop before then.
Speaker 2:Because the freeway wasn't connected yet. So the freeway wasn't connected until 1973, where they did the, the last, the, the virgin gorge right, basically 15, ended at the boulevard.
Speaker 1:It's a virgin river gorge that's what did I call it. It's virgin. That's like saying, uh, pine mountain, just don't do it. But yes, I love this guy.
Speaker 3:The turtle road? Uh, turtle road, but yes, we were a gas stop before then and they said what are we going to do to get people to stop?
Speaker 1:here, we never stopped I drove from salt lake to orange county all growing up, never stopped in st george and by the way, by then it was awesome.
Speaker 1:I mean you, you were driving through decades after we did awesome stuff. Yeah, right, which is going to bring up, but that is the history, right, dixie Red Hills comes in. So who started Dixie Red Hills, the city? It was City of St George, which is really great because there's going to be a showdown. A guy showed up in a Sesame Street bus today that wants to argue. This is a true story.
Speaker 2:I do want to work. It's so out of context. It started in a text thread.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I showed up with my Dixie Days inaugural golf tournament last Monday. So if you played in that tournament, you got one of these bad boys at Southgate, at Southgate.
Speaker 2:Which we'll bring up as well. How much do you have to pay? No, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 3:Now I will say this too I am not at the city, I'm not with the city. These are my own opinions. All our opinions are our own, he's not being compensated by the city. And I'm not talking for the city. Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:But I am in defense of the city. We're going to have a spirited debate where most people are going to walk away. Half of the county is going to be like Rob is a psycho and he needs to be stopped, and then half the County's be like man, he's great. He made a lot of great points, which is life in a nutshell, which which is basically Southern Utah. So we're going to we're just going to this is family matters. This is our series called family matters.
Speaker 1:This is important and they thought that we were going to talk about how to deal with our 13 year old or whatever is the first series, the first series of family?
Speaker 2:matters is the northern corridor. So I did family matters. I had the county commissioners on, I had uh eric clark with the county on, and then I had uh conserve southwest utah on. We had a spirited debate. I was a neutral party but they debated their sides. That's family matters. I'm going to get into this debate because I think there's just a couple of. It's a battle between status quo and progress, and we you and I you're the one who's highlighted these things to me more than anybody right when I moved here, cause I didn't know anything and you gave me a PhD in Southern Utah.
Speaker 1:What year was?
Speaker 2:that, so we started working together in 2016, 15, 16. Yeah, yeah, it was like end of 15, 16 is when we started working.
Speaker 1:Yeah, robert, yeah, and Robert has, like a wonderful, his own business now, but at the time he was, I didn't know anything about anybody in real estate. I literally didn't know anybody.
Speaker 2:I didn't even know when we moved here my wife and I moved here we knew Dave Alderman. That was it. Yeah, our real estate agent. That was the only person we knew in town, and so then, starting to work for you you highlighted on this, so it's status quo versus progress.
Speaker 1:And here's the hilarity of the dialogue that I will insert by, besides me not making the golf team, but it was a great opener is that we're in a text thread. It's like it's, it's, it's McCray.
Speaker 2:Don't put all the parties on it, but we're eight and Robert, I won't on it, but it's, we're eight and robert, I won't.
Speaker 1:I won't. It's mcrae and robert and I and two of our other friends who have like lots and lots of strong and I was, I was not going to strong feelings about the community. Yeah, and, by the way, this is five people who, let me tell you what we all have in common here we love this town. Yes, right, absolutely, absolutely. And I started lamenting the fact that, uh, golf is too long and I think 18 holes is so dumb.
Speaker 2:It was hilarious.
Speaker 1:And, by the way, guys, I grew up my father, dale, and my uncle, daryl McRae, knows this Well. They're considered like St George. They are St George golf. Daryl was once named Mr Utah golf by Utah golf magazine. Mr St George golf. I grew up on the. It's ingrained in me and I was just going. Do you know how dumb it is that we go out for five hours Because it's not four, right, mccray, it's not, it's four hours is the play, with the gap in between, if you're lucky, yeah, to get a roller dog at the turn and travel and warm up and cool down and hitting balls, so probably six hours. And I said why isn't golf six holes aside, right? And one of our buddies is like dude, you nailed it. And then what ensued is Robert said I think the city should just sell the flipping golf courses and they shouldn't be involved. Okay, let's set it up.
Speaker 3:Well, and I had given an idea. That was partially. That was a conversation I had had with a friend who is also very influential in golf here and the idea was St George Golf Club, known as the ditch for people in the golf community here Obvious reasons For obvious reasons. It actually started out as like a derogatory thing. It's kind of just become like. I think they should make hats that say the ditch, because it's just, it's a fun thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, take a negative and try to twist it around and make it a positive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it sounds great however, I played a lot of golf there as a kid. That was another place. We got dumped as teenagers. Well, and if you need a last, minute tea time and nothing is available.
Speaker 3:You almost know that something's going to be available there I wonder why and so well, but there is a way to repurpose that thing and and that's how I'd even got brought up was because Jeremy's talking about 18 holes, six holes gets brought up and I'm like, oh well, you know what? We have this really cool idea for St George Golf Club where we turn it into three six-hole courses and make it like the foundational development program for kids in St George, pause real quick.
Speaker 2:I want to just solidify my argument. My argument isn't that the city should ditch all of the golf courses. My argument isn't to do that right. I think there should be a consideration on an annual basis whether the assets that the city owns are making progress towards the best thing for Southern Utah. Okay, so the ditch for an example to me right now needs investment in order for it to reach its potential is, from what I understand, go to your. I just wanted to clarify what my stance is. It's not that the city should just go and sell all the golf courses. However, I think there should be progress being made in a direction that is best suited for the community and at one time, I give mad props to the city of st george for, uh, redcliffs and the idea of how do we bring.
Speaker 2:How do we, how do we encourage businesses? How do we, uh, uh, capitalize on tourism because we have this beautiful place to live? It's a brilliant thought, it's a brilliant strategy. It was a brilliant, uh way of growing. However, at what point do does the public or the government need to compete in the private institutions? And you name it across the board? At what level should the government be competing against the private industry? So I'll stay. Take a step back, because I think your idea is awesome. So finish the pitch on the three, six hole idea that you have yeah well.
Speaker 3:So the idea was just hey, this would be a really cool idea that you know there's six whole there's, there's there's three, six whole courses. There's an actual driving range, because the city courses they're all shorter, kind of, yeah, you can't really use them at full capacity, and you could actually turn it into a very lively like lunch appointments. I mean, you could go out for an hour and play golf.
Speaker 2:It's a twist on big shots right, it's just a twist on big shots.
Speaker 3:Right and it's like it is a twist, but it's also where it's like hey, people want to get into golf, but a lot of people are intimidated by, one, the price, a lot of the time, and two, just being able to go out and hit that ball, and so just the confidence booster. If you were to have like three six-hole par three courses that are all short holes, it would be incredible, and so, anyway, that's the point, and part of that was like restructuring it, so maybe there was some part of it that the land wasn't going to be used anymore, and so anyway, that's where I jumped in, that's what led to Robert.
Speaker 3:But in a way you also kind of said the city should not be in golf courses.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, so this means a reinvestment in St George golf club, right? Your idea would require a reinvestment and a rethinking of the golf course, right?
Speaker 3:Yes, which led to further conversation of the city's just not being involved in golf.
Speaker 2:So my thought would be this If the city was to take this idea, would it be successful? Like, take your idea, they would take it. Would it be successful? Yes, absolutely. If a private business came and did that idea, would it be successful?
Speaker 3:not as much, why? So that's where I think the basis of this is city. Is cities being involved in golf courses in general? I know this has been a topic of conversation because a few people the last couple of years have voiced that cities should either sell the courses to private companies and have them run them, or sell them and just turn them into something else because we're using too much water. All that narrative, right and so, um, I just think the crux of st george golf is the economic development impact that it's had on not only the, the, basically all, the, all the age groups. Whether you're a kid that can go play, for I think now it's like six dollars which I don't know.
Speaker 1:It's incredible. It's like when our brian head passes were 50 bucks. Yeah, oh, that was.
Speaker 3:Those were the good days or a retiree or and, and so the thing with the developmental. The idea behind it is to create something that everyone, whether you're five years old or you're 90 years old, can go use and it can be affordable. The problem and the problem with sometimes a big shots or a top golf or any of those that are privately run, same with golf courses they are just more expensive. And they're more expensive because private business does really really really want that very healthy profitability right, like every.
Speaker 2:I mean, they want just a profitable business.
Speaker 3:Like they're going to always seek the best profit, correct.
Speaker 3:And so, and there's things with the city, and the city also wants to be profitable. Obviously they don't want to lose money, but the city also has so many advantages with with owning the land, owning the water, having maintenance, people that maybe not are always on the golf courses, but they're, they're in some capacity, like I just the, the management, the build out, everything would be so much more, so much less expensive, expensive that it would allow for that same level of in expensiveness that the city courses have had throughout the history of time, that it could continue that I want to chime in.
Speaker 1:So just for fun, because the joke in this, in this whole text thread, was we're going to debate this lark and you come. You know right, you know, yes, please mediate, I would go and do that. I won't go to big shots. So so many of my buddies two years ago and you know, mccray, because we're around this 24 months ago everybody ran out to big shots and they bought that corporate pass. Do you know why I don't go to big shots? I was bored. After the second time I went literally and what happens? You had all these corporate guys like we're hitting golf balls at a net. That's not fun. That is not the enjoyment of nature which is I'm actually going to pose it or the game in itself.
Speaker 2:The game, yeah, in its raw form, yeah, the nature of the game.
Speaker 1:They're like, yeah, but they've got killer foods and wings. It's like, yeah, but so I feel like I was one of the only seven one of my closest people that owned businesses that were like kind of the style of my business or real estate team that didn't invest in that, and I was just like I don't want to go to big shots and do bs networking, hitting out of a commercial bay into a net right. So for me it's the game, but. But so, number one, I would use that concept, but it brings up an argument. Just for fun. I'm gonna throw this in here Should the city be involved in anything? Should the city be involved in parks?
Speaker 2:And is there? Yeah, but when we attach these arguments to each other, I think they need to be standalone arguments, because we get I think this is the problem that we do is when we say should the city be involved in anything? Sure, the what are the priorities of the city? What? What is the functional role that the city has within the community? Support businesses in improve businesses, private businesses, not its own businesses? Right, its job should be to improve those. But as soon as the city, you know they, they own four courses. Right, we have 14 in the County, correct, we have 14 in the County. 14, 159 million acre feet of water, or no, not acre feet, that's gallons 159 million gallons of water is used annually on the average golf course.
Speaker 2:This is from the golf association and then in the Southwest right and we have 14 of them. That's 1500 homes that they could. They could get water for every day well, now granted it's not potable water. We're going to reuse. We could get into the reuse water, but what I'm saying is we have 14 golf courses. The city owns four of them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, golf washington owns one that's bringing washington city because they also do a great job.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, call Washington.
Speaker 3:City. Yeah, call Washington.
Speaker 1:City, Greenspring, Greenspring. So I mean because we're thinking City of.
Speaker 3:St George, but let's call it five then, right? Well then, Sky Mountain.
Speaker 2:Is Sky Mountain City owned? It is a city-owned course. So there's six.
Speaker 3:Six of the 14.
Speaker 2:So six of the 14 are competitors to the private businesses that are trying to make money at doing this thing. Interesting argument, right? So is that the role? Is that the role of what the city should be doing? Because what if that was title? What if the city owned a title company and they accounted for 50% of all the business in the whole county is just the city. How would you feel about that competition?
Speaker 3:There's a difference. There is a difference. There is a there is a difference because a lot of the, a lot of the, all the private ones are not competing with city courses.
Speaker 2:How, I mean, if we want to talk about copper rock is not getting, is not competing against sky mountain. I I wouldn't say so there.
Speaker 3:I I understand the argument for sure, but I'm also going to bring in an argument, after the fact, of the gain of local businesses that golf brings, because it's the second or third biggest attraction to St George and always will be, and so that's the net gain overall for all businesses here is an absolute win. Just like we said in the 60s, how are we going to get people to stay here? It was golf and it has been golf throughout history. And come here Now privately.
Speaker 3:Here's the thing Southgate, sunbrook and St George Golf Club, they were all started by private companies, private developers, and they were all bailed out by the city, one by one. And so, yes, I understand, okay, let one by one, and so that. And so, yes, I understand, okay, let's flip it back to the private sector. But that takes away from the vision that st george city has, with the economic development that it, the impact that it brings locally, when you can have people that can retire here, that can grow up here, want their kids to grow up, and they know they can send their kids to the golf course for five hours, even though you have any idea how much money the city spent to bail out those businesses?
Speaker 2:no, who knows. So if, if we just think about those dollars that we use to bail out those businesses, whose money is? That taxpayers, the public, public, the citizens, not the vacationers that the citizens, okay, foot the bill for those bailouts and it's the citizens that use the golf courses primarily.
Speaker 2:If you had a 500% return on your investment it's probably more than that. Let's say, 1,000% investment in return and you're managing somebody's money and you go to Rob and say, hey, rob, I made 1,000% on the money that you gave me and I said, man, you should sell that so I can have that money. And you would be like, no, no, let's keep it riding because it's only a realized gain In 2023, the revenues, which is interesting, they removed the revenues of the golf in the 2024 budget. By the way, the adopted budget In the 2023 adopted budget for the general fund, revenues of golf came in at $6.6 million. The expenditures for golf was $7.7 million. They lost $1.1 million on the top line. You're shaking your head? No, I'm just reading what.
Speaker 3:They gave back $1.2 million to the top line. You're shaking your head. No, I'm just reading what this is revenue.
Speaker 2:This is 1.2 million to the general fund they gave back 1.2 million to the general fund. Explain they in the in the expenditures.
Speaker 3:So the expenditures if you're talking about the improvements to like the you're. You're talking improvements to the clubhouses because there's been the improvement of dixie, red hills. A whole new clubhouse, southgate sunbrook, is underway right now and St George was done as well. My understanding and this again I am not with the city my understanding is that those I've got it written down, those were paid out of the paid capital project fund. And yes, of course, when you have improvements like that, you 100% are not going to be showing and I don't. Honestly, the complexity of the budget is beyond my ears.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I think it's beyond 99%. We need four hours to go there, right. If you're not an accountant and you're like oh, we took this money over here and we put it over here, and then we put it in this fund and then we pulled it out of here.
Speaker 3:But the golf division contributed $1,219,599 to the city general fund last year Last year, okay. Fair enough year last year, okay, and so, and so, if you, take out, if you take out, if you take revenues and expenses without those capital projects and that's where and that's, and again I don't know how they all account a capital project profitable, but it's a reinvestment the courses as a whole have been, have been profitable for our last fight, or at least four, at least four or five.
Speaker 2:The last four, not every year.
Speaker 3:In the last five years, not every year four of the last, sorry, no four or five of the last four, or?
Speaker 3:five, five or five years the last four or five years, sorry, and they go through ebbs and flows obviously, like I was talking to mark mortensen about this, and it's like 13, 14, 15 was pretty tough for golf and the way that the city manages itself. It like there's going to be ebbs and flows of that and right now, yes, golf is at an all-time high right now in because of covid right, like covid actually shifted everybody outside right and they shifted everybody to golf and they shifted everybody to pickleball. Luckily, we have both of those as assets to our community because it's helped bring in even more people. We have the ppa uh, the professional pickleball association now here in saint george. That was an investment in saint george city expanding the, the pickleball courts, which someone in the same argument might be like why did you go invest millions of dollars into the pickleball courts? Well, this is the vision of why we bring in the ppa.
Speaker 2:We're bringing in more but let me, let me take a step back though the pga that's coming to black desert.
Speaker 3:That never would have happened if we didn't have what we currently have as a golf I don't believe that's true? I don't believe that's true the the groundwork of the golf, of the groundwork of having 14 courses here to be able to be a destination without like we have destination courses Sand Hollow, the ledges.
Speaker 2:Copper Rock. My argument is that we tried to grow faster than we could actually do it. We put more golf courses. Golf is paid for by the real estate that's surrounding it. Look at every single one of the developments. The golf wouldn't just exist without the homes and the land that they built around it.
Speaker 1:Would you is that fair.
Speaker 2:The real estate is floating the capital investment of the golf course and keeps it floating on the on, on the move forward. However, you get to a point where now you've done the right thing as a city, where you've invested in allowing businesses to take root and grow, and then do you just stay in the game is. Are you saying we should just always stay in the game, or why don't we? Why don't?
Speaker 2:we allow why wouldn't we allow the private businesses to jump in and then we reshift our focus to other issues. They're talking about doing a tax increase right, because we need other funds to go and let me ask you these other things.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you a question just for fun, just like, like, I'm gonna interject something. They're proposing a tax increase. How much per household? I don't know.
Speaker 1:It's the first one, it's probably like two dollars by the way, okay this is the first thing I want to say. Is he just answered it. This is classic. And, robert, we're having a. This is an open debate. This is we're not trying to actually. We establish that, yeah, okay, like I can't believe, they want to increase taxes. Well, how much was it? Well, it was three dollars. It was $3 a year, okay.
Speaker 2:We're the fifth largest city and we have the fifth lowest tax rate of any city in the state. So like Second lowest. I thought, yeah, like life here is pretty good or county-wide, and realize.
Speaker 1:All three of us here are in real estate. You know people argue property taxes. I'm like, you don't like property taxes. Take you anywhere outside of the state of Utah and you will poop your pants when you see what people are paying in property taxes. So but I want to. But I want to propose an argument for it's. Maybe it's just an alternative thought. I know that I'm, that I'm leaving golf for a minute. I want you to take Vernon Worthen Park and town square, just play along for a minute.
Speaker 2:I'm going to play along. What is the ROI?
Speaker 1:What is the ROI on those?
Speaker 2:Zero.
Speaker 1:No negative, negative, negative, negative, negative. Every dollar. There's no ROI. It's interesting 20 years ago 15 years ago this is when my great and lovely late uncle was on the planet. He'd been a mayor of St George, gray Larkin they came along, gary, gary I was about to say Gary Keller, gary Keller, gary Asplund was the city manager and they said we're going to tear down the old, dumpy county library and we're going to build Town Square. There was so much opposition to Town Square, right, and Gary said we're doing it. I've got a vision for this thing. And I remember Gray saying I'm way out of this, but this is going to be one of the best things that ever happened for St George. And where I'm going to go with this is does the ROI, even being negative, mean that you shouldn't have it, meaning Just for fun? Is there an argument for having four city golf courses where people can play for cheap? Because Robert McRae's point is correct If you turn those over private, there's no more $6 golf for the junior association. There's not.
Speaker 2:There's not.
Speaker 1:It goes away.
Speaker 2:You're saying that there's an absolute there, but the city could easily put a deed restriction in and make an agreement with whoever takes over the business saying, hey, we're going to do this, but we want to maintain these programs that are successful to the city and we're going to give you a discount on water or something like that.
Speaker 1:By the way, I don't dislike that argument.
Speaker 2:Right Like, there's things outside where now I'm not competing, I'm not competing, the city is not competing. There's not a $6 million cost expenditure on the line every single year for these golfs. It's not every year. If those include of costs, why would cost go down? Why would your, why would your expenses?
Speaker 3:depends on what you're looking at, but when you're talking about the net, if those are capital projects, I don't think that's a yearly number.
Speaker 2:The capital projects are not in here, as as far I'm trying to get to the adopted budget for golf, but all I'm saying is that the expense line for golf expense, just expense. It doesn't matter capital projects or otherwise, which I do think they account for. In a different spot, however, if, if it's not six million, what is the average? But do you see, what I'm saying is, if there is a this is straight from a city council member. I won't tell you who it is Golf courses really should stay at the top of the conversation, because the pro and con lists are lengthy and always, always sitting on the scales of decision makers.
Speaker 2:The fact that golf is always sitting on the scales of decision makers and that's from somebody that is sitting at the city council level, to me that is an inappropriate role of where the government should be. It should. They should not be in a private industry competing and then having that way in on important other decisions. That don't, that don't, that don't. If I didn't, if my kids don't like golf, then that tax, my tax burden, goes to something that I won't utilize and think about how many of those?
Speaker 3:but in most years it doesn't lose money. Well, and that's not overall.
Speaker 2:You just told me four of them that were bailed out by the city and that they didn't start making money until five years ago no no, no, no, I didn't say that. Why didn't you say six out of the six years or no, no?
Speaker 3:I said no, I out of the last.
Speaker 3:Whatever, I just meant the last four or five the last four or five years have all been profitable. It does go, it does ebb and flow, but that's but when you're looking at overall, if you're looking at the cost of the dollar absolutely, if they're making pennies or if they're losing some. I understand where you're coming from on that in that regard, but you have to look at the ROI of the entire landscape of what golf has brought to our community and continues to bring to the community. That will continue as the second or third biggest reason why people come here and spend sales tax.
Speaker 2:Because the ground is fertilized. It's fertilizing and growing the sales tax is what keeps cities alive. You're saying that if the city gets out of it, that the industry would die here in town.
Speaker 3:I didn't say it would die. I said it would change.
Speaker 1:It would certainly change if the cities that well, yeah, go ahead, mccray, listen. This is why the park conversation I had actually is valid. I want to bring this back in it because it brings up a philosophical question, because robert is going down a road of do the dollars and cents make sense? And I think really robert like get it. Yeah, yeah, I know Right, that was clever. I'm like see what I did Meaning. If you look, if you only want to argue it that way, you could go a million miles into the center of the earth and go. It makes no sense. But I go back to the parks and say, but is there an overall, an overarching benefit that you cannot quantify? This philosophical argument is valid, is there? Like you know, dan McArthur 30 years ago says we should have a park within one mile of every house. So they start building parks everywhere and community residents are like we don't want to pay for parks.
Speaker 2:And then also, when you look at it, we're like, ooh, maybe we actually can't feasibly make that happen. Correct, right.
Speaker 1:Sure. But the question is hey, Mr or Mrs Citizen, I know you don't use the parks, but philosophically speaking, is there still a benefit to a community having things like a park within each mile, or a town square or Vernon Worth, which are negative ROI or for city? Does this make sense? And I don't even know that you can prove an answer. It's just like is there a benefit to having these things? Because if it's only about dollars and cents, it's only a financial question, then for sure, just close them all and sell them to private business. If that's the only argument and I don't think that's the only argument, and that's why I'm saying not to sell all of them.
Speaker 2:That's why I'm not saying, don't, don't? You kept talking about golf being the fabric of the community. I think to a really big portion of the community. That is true. That is true Absolutely. I think I really appreciate the fact that it's an opportunity for kids, young, old, to get into the sport, having a destination place, tourism, all that stuff.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying to pull the rug out and collapse the industry within the county. However, at what point do we say, when I have to trim the tree, when I'm looking at it, grow, this branch is really great and it's fruitful, but for the benefit of the rest of the tree, we need to take that branch off right and to see the ditch being turned into a cool, unique golf experience where you use less water. Is that reinvestment a good option? I think it's a great option, but does the city just stay in that game forever? Or can they turn around and look at the capital improvements and say, in this portion of time, not all time the status quo versus progress, okay, if the city wants to progress us into the next 10, 15 years, which truthfully is a doubling of the population, we have to start thinking about fundamental utilities, infrastructure and other things that we're bringing in.
Speaker 2:We have $10 billion in GDP in the city of St George, $10 billion GDP. We have an industry here. We're not a wide spot in the road if we stay stuck in this status quo of 20 years ago and don't look forward 20 years and think, well, what do we want to be then? And think of this opportunity with the ditch to be, to be an asset that they turn around and then they upgrade from. By just saying golf can't be touched across the board is is hindering the development and the growth of the city in other directions that could continue to service the community.
Speaker 3:See, and that's where I think that the when you like, just the foundation of selling the land, and then what happens? When I mean that's a one-time sell right, and it's we're all in real estate again. And so it's like when you talk, to people Depends on.
Speaker 2:They sell it to, though, because tax revenue. There's other revenues that can come into the city from that land.
Speaker 3:And I understand that, but it's not a zero sum. No, and it's not a zero sum in either direction. And I guess my going back to when the cities took over for private developers part of the problem of running golf courses is the cost of the water, the cost of the maintenance, the cost of everything, and so the city can literally just do that cheaper than anyone. Either way, if we're talking water, the water is going to be used.
Speaker 2:They can do it cheaper because they're just getting a pass Right Because they own the water.
Speaker 3:And then they, and like all of they don't own the water.
Speaker 2:They don't own the water. The city works for us. The citizens own the water. I get that.
Speaker 3:It's our water it's not the city's water and that's totally fine.
Speaker 2:But what I'm saying Do you believe that? Yeah, I do Okay, okay, I just want to make sure.
Speaker 3:But I also understand the reuse and all the systems that the cities have put in place to be able to create more use of this water, to be able to allow for golf courses to remain here. I just think that the economic so economic. I'm a big economic development guy, as you know. Yeah, me too and I think there's better ways we can.
Speaker 2:I can't.
Speaker 3:I can't remember where I saw the most perfect definition of economic development, but one is the process by which the economic well-being and quality of life of a region is improved according to targeted goals and objectives. And I think since the sixties, golf has been a primary economic development driver of this entire county on multiple different levels both kids growing up, both adult, both retirees coming and moving here, spending their tax dollars here, along with the, the growth of St George, and what it's led to now as this recreational I mean the, the golf courses are probably what ended up leading Dan MacArthur to say like we should have grass, we should have grass every. We should have parks everywhere.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Like that's more grass. No, I mean obviously the intention wasn't grass, but the point was the point was recreational, recreational right.
Speaker 3:It was the benefit for the community, and so I just don't, and and so, while I understand, I understand your argument, but I also think that you have four. That's not a big number to me, as the city of st george you have one in washington, you have 50 of the you have 50 of the golf industry in the county is owned by the government Right and so that's.
Speaker 2:But it's not Supplemented and paid for by the citizens, but money made Some money's made. Yes, some money's made Right and they can make money a lot of different ways.
Speaker 3:The revenue is such a tiny fraction, it's a minimal fraction. But then parks don't bring revenue Again. This is a a tiny fraction, it's a minimal fraction.
Speaker 1:But then parks don't bring revenue Again, it's this is a revenue producing thing, but parks are different.
Speaker 2:We have to separate a park.
Speaker 3:It's not a park, it's a business dude Right, it's a business, I get it. I can't go there.
Speaker 2:If I'm a citizen, I can't just show up to clubs. They won't let me do that. I still have to pay 100% Period. A golf park? I go there for free. I go there for free?
Speaker 3:Yeah, same with trails Exactly, and I understand that. But what I'm saying is it's not, but it is an income producing and if they run it correctly, they can run it as a profit.
Speaker 2:It's soaking the private businesses.
Speaker 3:Huh, profit, it's soaking the private business. Huh, soaking the private businesses, but at a much, because they can't do it as cheap, because they then have to pay for water. They have to pay for all these things you see how there's a middle ground.
Speaker 2:That's where there's, there's a, there's a way when we take it off the table.
Speaker 3:There's seven of those that people, there's eight of those that people can go to and I don't under. I understand your point of government competing with private. I'm not typically one, in most business cases, to say that they should compete.
Speaker 2:Give me one other. Give me one other case where we want the private, where the government?
Speaker 3:I can't think of one.
Speaker 2:So golf is the only one.
Speaker 3:But what I'm saying is this is such a and this isn't just St George, right. I mean, 40% of courses in Utah are municipal.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean, that's why it's a family matter.
Speaker 2:This is why it's a family matter country. I'm not sure how I mean, I'm not sure how literally, but every state, every city has city courses. The water usage in a golf course for it's the southwest is almost double that of every other region in the in the country, but now you're gonna go back to water.
Speaker 3:But all I'm saying is we're trying to compare.
Speaker 2:You were trying to compare our situation with other places in the count in the country and we're not the same okay, but what I'm saying, though, is city courses, and, yeah, those there. These are two different arguments you use water as a reason why that the private businesses can't be successful one the cost of it to maintain and have a profitable business, I get.
Speaker 3:If your operating expenses go up, you're the, the cost to play goes up and then we become palm springs or somewhere where there's no there.
Speaker 2:It's all expensive golf now like I'd have to check you on that you talk, I'd have to fact check you on. If there's a cheap place to play golf in palm springs, I don't know. I bet you the city of palm springs owns at least one or two courses that you can I don't know, I can't I can't speak to.
Speaker 3:I can't speak to that I just threw that. I just threw that out of my head.
Speaker 1:He's like it seemed helpful. No, I'm kidding.
Speaker 3:No, my thought is, the great thing about this he's typing McCray. The great thing about St George Golf, washington County Golf is that we do have the option of both. We have a world-class pga tour golf course that now the county tourism office. If we're now talking about counties and government getting involved in the marketing and the and the, the exposure of golf, I could see the county doubling down, and this is again my opinion. But just now that we've got this beautiful asset of black desert, how do we, how do we, continue to make this like a Zion National Park where it is just a driver of economic benefit.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, McCreight actually brings up another argument because we're just having fun with arguments. I love it. You know how many times have you two had somebody go? Don't you love all the growth, Cause you're in real estate, you all the time. You must be killing it. You must be killing it.
Speaker 1:I'm like, well, actually, since everyone can get a license, well, let's not start that argument. So it's actually the reason I even asked that question is the reality is most of us don't love. Does anyone in this room like the traffic? Not really Does it like? We actually don't love that it's just growing? And they say, well, yeah, but don't you love that median home price is $520,000 today? No, I actually wish it were 350, because if it were 350, it'd be a lot more fun, because we wouldn't have so many people who were butthurt and sad that they can't own a home. And where I'm going with this is the question.
Speaker 1:Some people will say, well, McRae, we don't want the growth right, we don't want the growth, we don't want black desert, right. This is why I say these arguments could go on to the journey of the center of the earth is some people will say, because what you're asking is a good question. What if we could blow up the economic development? And there is this whole segment of our county, typically the noisy minority, right, you know as they say it right that are like we don't want growth. Pitchforks lock the doors, you know, deadbolt, how dare you tear?
Speaker 1:down the old library or whatever it was for the town square right Like yeah tear down the old library or whatever it was for the town square, right, like yeah, yeah, so, so, but it isn't a question. Is is, but what? What's? What's happened is we're a resort town and everyone in this room knows that we're a resort town and that is one of the great challenges of saint george's. People say what are we going to do about affordable housing? And when you say what I'm about to say, it's not very popular when I say we're gonna have a hard time because we're a resort town, you can't have both.
Speaker 2:You can't have both. Neil Walters said it at the Housing Action Coalition last year, Correct? I was there. I remember Exactly. He said you can't have both. You cannot be a resort town and have affordable homes. You can't have an affordable living environment and also be a resort town. And then you take all of the examples across the country to say that that's true. So if we double down on resort when we've already established ourselves as a resort town, is that the right direction in the next 20 years?
Speaker 2:I'm going to take a step back too and talk about economic development. When you talk about economic impact and development on the residual basis, the city of the St George, the Washington County, exists to provide economic development opportunities for its citizens, for its citizens not to make money in which they can then use that money to reinvest in its citizens. It's how do I help those citizens put on their shoes in the morning and go do meaningful work every day and provide value to the economy, not to just give somebody from outside a reason to come, stay at the hotel and then we count that money and saying, oh well, we wouldn't have that otherwise. Like no, you would actually have a family that lives here, that invests in their community, that cares about the community, that builds jobs, that are entrepreneurs, that work live care here.
Speaker 2:Instead, we're attracting all of these visitors and it causes home prices to go up. It costs all of our food costs, utility costs. The state of Utah has the second lowest energy cost in the entire country. We are the cheapest energy in all 50 states. Did you know? Washington County ranks at the bottom of the entire country in terms of energy costs and what we pay for utilities? In Southern Utah, we're in the state that has the. In southern utah, we're in the state that has the cheapest energy, yet we pay in the top 30 percent, the most expensive energy in the entire country but are we saying, do you see how?
Speaker 1:are we saying the county as a whole?
Speaker 2:because dixie s, dixie rea, you know dixie as a whole, okay, the county as a whole, because dixie escalante is like the second cheapest power until until the federal government comes in and tells us that we got to close the coal power plant that is they rely on to be able to. When I talk about economic development.
Speaker 3:I'm not even talking about, like I appreciate, the growth concept. The economic development to me is just what I read is the quality of life as well, of the residents and the residents. If we turn the back to the conversation of golf, if we turn all these city courses into resorts, which is what they would do in some capacity of a privately owned uh, golf destination, what is that going to do to this town? It's going to continue to elevate it and the residents will be the ones, because it's just going to be all about the people coming into play, because the residents aren't going to be able to play but I think you're still using.
Speaker 2:You're still using a singular, uh example to say that it can only be this, you're saying that it can only be a somebody that comes and makes it a resort, which I don't believe that. I don't believe that that's the only case, and the reason I don't believe that is because we've never tried to exist like, see if the community, if there an industry, if there is a buyer for the golf course to be able to turn it into something that's greater for the city, we don't even look at options.
Speaker 3:We've seen the creation of others and what they've gone through in some of the other courses that we have, the development of the neighborhoods around, like the real estate part of it and then the golf course part of it, and we've seen some of the ups and downs of Sand, hollow and Ledges and all these different ones that are private and that are still private, that have struggled big time.
Speaker 2:They've struggled, but they still exist, they do.
Speaker 2:Going back to if you don't ever look at the option to sell the golf course, if you never look at what other opportunities they do, what are the long-term consequences and the long-term benefits of taking a different route?
Speaker 2:If we don't ever look at it and we only say, and we get anchored into this opinion, that it can never be a different way, we're not going to progress. It has a residual impact on all these other aspects of our community where we have to be able to sit down and approach this from an option standpoint and then we pick A or B. But if we don't give ourselves options, especially from the city and the county levels, and say what are the best options and be open to that, then we're going to get stuck in the status quo and we're going to be behind development, not in front of. We're not. We're going to be reactive, not proactive. And you guys have seen over the last five years I think the city's done an excellent job with the adjustments that have happened with covid right, they had no idea what vrbocom was going to do to the resort town.
Speaker 2:No way they could have never imagined it was going to transform the community in the way that it has. And is that for the benefit? Could could we sit here, the three of us sit here, and say, man, that vacation resort um development was really good for our county no, not really dude.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but what I'm saying is it's reactive versus proactive.
Speaker 2:Right Is that they didn't anticipate. There's some things that we just can't anticipate. But if we don't open our eyes up and take a second to pull ourselves out of the river and look around and say is this the best place to be fishing, or should we be fishing upstream or down there, or is there a bear behind us? Right, Because if I'm just busy fishing and not paying attention, we're going to get caught by surprise. We're in a moment where things have slowed down. It's a great time to take a look around and look at options. That's my main point. The golf course. If the vote comes in, reinvestment to create your idea, I'd have to take a serious look at it. I'd want to look at it like a business plan, right?
Speaker 1:As if I'm a citizen paying taxes to the community. I'm going to say, yeah, let's look at that as an option. Maybe we keep it, maybe we sell it. So here, but let's look at options. But here's a question, and, by the way, I I love robert's question. I mean, did I, did I ask a?
Speaker 2:question no, I'm on my soapbox still.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry I you were born on it bro, listen, and I love you, I love it's because I was short, huh, and I know, I know I have a friend who's 5'1 and it's the same thing, so robert's a lot bigger than 5'1.
Speaker 1:I like the question, though okay, you said question I. I like the idea as it's just, as a standalone idea. Is it not valid? This is the question. Is it not valid to just ask the question? And and and the metaphor of coming out of the river is beautiful, right, I think it's valid because it's not stating that you're right or wrong. Right, it's asking the question. And then I'm going to ask this question for both of you Is what McRae is proposing actually a step in that exact direction? Would that be okay? Look, we're not going to.
Speaker 2:We're not going to sell the whole thing off.
Speaker 1:You're never. I'm going to ask you first and then you go next. Yeah, great. First is your proposal with with the ditch, with St George golf club, actually exactly what Robert's saying Like, hey, let's test something different, even if it's not selling it to private enterprise, is it a step in the right direction? What do you think?
Speaker 3:I just I guess my thought is that I don't see how a private company would do it better than the city would do it. In that idea and the idea as a whole of making it a developmental place where kids and everybody could go, and it could be something, I think he's arguing the city keeps it.
Speaker 2:He's saying, if the city kept it and go the route that you're saying is that in a similar step in the direction of rethinking, taking a proactive approach rather than a reactive approach. I think that's what he's asking.
Speaker 1:But here's what's funny. You made a great comment. I was just thinking about, you know, because I live downtown and I mean we all work downtown. You know, I see the city landscape staff out like maintaining the planners on the boulevard and I was sitting here thinking what if you outsource that to private business? Would it be just as cheap? I don't think so. I actually don't think private business can do that as cheap. I think the city is actually and this flies in the face of everybody who's like damn city. I think the city is highly efficient. I think they're way more efficient, I think they're way more cost conscious than any private business could be. The second you turned all of the parks over, or the medians on the boulevard to private enterprise. The cost of that landscape service, it went up. Yeah, I believe. Yeah, which is an argument for the golf course, right? Okay?
Speaker 2:But we're still comparing apples to oranges both fruit, but different, right, like a banana and an apple is an apple. Why would the landscape do it cheaper if they do it in-house? Because they're not competing with the private industry to maintain their own properties and their own things. They're not competing against somebody to do that In golf. They're competing against them. Sky Mountain is great. It might be killing Copper Rock. There's a reason Costco hasn't opened up another costco. Because why would we open another costco if I can't make more revenue than what costco if I split it? Because if my shoppers go to this costco and then they just go over here, have all the expenses in uh maintenance, so that's why they haven't been here yet. It doesn't economically make sense. Is it just possible? We made more golf courses than we can actually handle, too soon Maybe, and the private businesses would be successful if six of them are competing against them at a lower cost.
Speaker 2:But here's a question.
Speaker 1:Here's a question they're competing in the private industry. Here's a question who came first, the city courses or the others? The city, so? Who actually? So who actually in this argument? Who actually made the mistake? The private golf courses? Who thought they would try and compete with us here, exactly?
Speaker 2:Absolutely true.
Speaker 1:That was their choice.
Speaker 2:That was their choice and the city made a great job in investing, in bailing those businesses out to make sure that that property maintained itself. They saw the long vision. They were proactive in that. However, we're at a new starting line. We're at the turn of a new. We're in a revolution, dude, and if anybody thinks it's different, it's. We're going to look back in the history books and the last five years is going to go down like the great depression and all these other eras of time. This we're in a new, whole new world. We have to start looking down that road again.
Speaker 1:Do you realize we've had, you know, the Great Depression. Was what? 19? Let's just call it 1930. Do you realize that we had two, probably the two most major economic events in the century in a 10-year period, In a 12-year period?
Speaker 2:We had the Great Recession right.
Speaker 1:And then we had COVID Holy crap, recession right.
Speaker 2:and then we had covid, yeah, holy crap it's. It's it's causing us to have to raise the bar right. And and I'm not saying that the city's doing a bad job, because I think they're doing an excellent job, going back to the points of the revenues in the golf making sense and and they're able to provide it at an affordable rate for young kids. All that right. Here's a question for our listeners, whoever.
Speaker 1:I mean the three people that get this just kidding, kidding. There's a lot of people. We got 10 minutes. We got 10 minutes. I would like people to comment when they see this, wherever they see this. If McCray Hepler's proposal of a three times six hole, three, three, six hole courses at the ditch St George Golf Club were proposed and you could go golf in 60 minutes, would you be more liable to go play golf and of course, there's no one here in the audience today, but that is a fun question. Please comment.
Speaker 2:Like is that idea? Does it have wheels? Cause to me I'm like dude. If I could go play for an hour.
Speaker 1:Call it 90 minutes, cause you got to drive down there. Be so awesome. Yet Mal says yes, she's in Mal.
Speaker 2:So we got one. Yeah, Mal with blue.
Speaker 1:She's in, mal says yeah, we got one. Yeah, mal with.
Speaker 2:Blue Thumb Media. I would even do it.
Speaker 1:I would even do it as well, and you'd be more likely to take your boys. I would absolutely and have that experience right.
Speaker 2:It's a great opportunity for the whole thing. I think your idea is great. I think it comes down to a fundamental piece is that when this idea gets presented to the city council, they are going to try to drive something home. And I'm going to go back and I'm going to beat up on the geo bond. The only reason we got $29 million for the geo bond is because they worked backwards from not raising taxes. They said I don't want to raise taxes, how much money can I get if I keep them the same and get another bond? That's how they came up the 29 million.
Speaker 2:And when I talked to him I said well, why did you only do 29 million? Well, it was the easiest pill to swallow to the community. Okay, should we be operating on the easiest pill to swallow or do we take something that needs you, you really believe in and you make a great argument for it and you you push that idea out to the community and let them choose, because I think that number should have been two, three times larger and we had a much bigger vision for that the next 20 years and be able to do it consistently and not know that we're gonna have to just come back to this or be stuck with funds that now we can't do this project. Because we got to do this project, I think we could have the community probably they won. It won by like 70 of the vote. I bet you, if they increased it two, three dollars a person and you you boiled it down to that number and that number was twice as much. Do you see how I think sometimes we think too small, we're thinking?
Speaker 3:too small. Yeah, but the the heated, the obviously you know how heated it's been the last couple years.
Speaker 2:It was heated, but the citizens spoke so loud on the. Go bond. True, they spoke so loud on that.
Speaker 3:But did the city think that they would speak that loud? Did they think that they would actually get 70%? I don't know if they, I don't know, I don't think. Like, I think that they maybe thought it was going to be closer. I think if 70 portion of the community that was very much against it including some very influential people that maybe they thought like that. Maybe it was a smart decision to just say let's just get this.
Speaker 1:Well, mccray, this goes back to vocal minority. I mean, how much do we know this? Right, the vocal minority is very, very loud and your your question. Robert's asking the question. Well, don't you think they knew they were going to get it? I don't know. They went to a lot of trouble asking people like me and whoever else in the town to shoot videos from our mountain bikes or a golf course Like will you please shoot a video saying, right, I support the go bond?
Speaker 3:There was a massive they were clearly worried about something. There was a massive. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:They're always going to be worried about something, right, whenever they're trying to pitch something, especially when it's 29 million, because you have to justify the thing. So, but but what I'm saying is that I don't think the community would have showed up at 70. I think it would have been much closer. You're talking about uh, almost you know two-thirds majority of the county, right, this is a super majority of the county deciding that $29 million was no big deal. But what if that number was 45 and it increased taxes just a little bit?
Speaker 1:Could they justify that and I?
Speaker 2:think they could have.
Speaker 2:I bet you 60% of the 70 that voted would probably be in on it too.
Speaker 2:But what it begs the question is are we focusing on the reasons behind it for one thing or the other, the reasons behind it for one thing or the other? But the geobond gets sucked into the golf course thing because it gets sucked into the water thing and it gets sucked into the affordable housing thing. So when I think of economic development, I just think there's some other opportunities that if we put the same amount of energy and effort into golf as we did some of these other fundamental infrastructure things like trails but other community type projects, that there's a certain place for social welfare right, like a firefighter right or you know, a public utility right. There's certain things public transportation, the fact that we have the public transportation that we have in Washington County is we're so sidetracked because we can't fit that into the conversation, because we have all these other stupid battles that we're battling. That's just my thought. And golf is sitting on the scales of important decisions every time from the city council member. That's a problem.
Speaker 3:It is, but but how much of the mind share of all their decision making is because the courses are just running right. And yes, there's decisions that are made around golf, but when you're comparing it to utilities or to the transportation, I don't think it's because golf is this overbearing conversation? Because it's really. I understand the point of that comment of its importance. I understand the point of that comment of its importance, but at the same time it's not like the geobond or the taxes or some of these other big narratives, big like earth-shattering things to the county.
Speaker 1:Because there's no decision pending.
Speaker 3:Right, it's just happening.
Speaker 3:It's like the golf course is operating, and so that's where I feel like sometimes the city has to pick and choose its battles with, because, you know, one year they year, they say, oh, we might increase taxes, and then it's like, oh, my goodness, the pitchforks came out and then it just happened to be that next year that the geo bond is up and they're like, uh-oh, how are we going to do this? Right, because we don't want to. We saw the response how we can do this. Transportation is a whole other topic that I think that I'm on your same page, that something needs to happen. But there's also been a lot of opposition of public transportation and how it should go private, and that's a whole different conversation, right?
Speaker 2:public transportation has never been private, never been successful. Private because it uh appeals to the segment of the socioeconomics of a city that's a low income. So it's never so. That's why. But guess what? Golf is not that, Golf's not that.
Speaker 3:But the development of what this, you have to take the history into account and you also have to take into account that how good of a sport the game of golf is for a young child 100% the outdoors, the mentality, that there's so many things that are good with golf besides it just being a sport. Maybe it's because I'm an actual like, I'm a one of the most diehard sports people that you'll ever meet and I know you have the same tendencies.
Speaker 2:well, the funny thing is I said I thought sports and schools were a cancer the other day on the podcast.
Speaker 3:That didn't go over well yeah, I was gonna say that's not going to be popular, and I just think that the development of those activities in kids is so, so big, and to have them outside is, I mean, this is a whole different conversation as well, but outside instead of indoors.
Speaker 1:on a screen. You mean that these are a problem? I just recorded an entire podcast episode.
Speaker 3:I mean there's just so many benefits to and I've seen it with a lot of my friends. My, my uncle, is the Georgia tech golf coach and has been for 30 years and he was.
Speaker 1:I forgot that, Bruce.
Speaker 3:Yeah, bruce, right, right. A lot of my best friends like golf is so important on so many levels. I get it, I get it, and, and so that's where the the dollars and cents, city-wise, the dollars and cents that are brought into this community, both people moving here and visiting here and mostly residents being able to use those golf courses. I just think that there's so much positive that comes from it when you think about the overall ROI not just the dollars and cents.
Speaker 1:Is this your final, Because Robert said 10 minutes like nine minutes ago. Is that your final statement?
Speaker 3:Is that?
Speaker 2:your final statement we got three more, we got three minutes.
Speaker 1:Okay, let's propose final statements, because I'm a pseudo mediator here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, final arguments, final arguments. Right, right, you started, so you want to do yours, and then I'll finish my final point. I'm so bad with words.
Speaker 3:You guys I said this before you guys are like natural wordsmiths and I clunk around and that's why I have to retake my videos a few times when I do them, because I just I have to get it perfect and I never get it perfect like you two do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I will say something. But there is a lot more value than just the words, because it's real cool to be political and suave on camera, but, mccreight, your heart being in this matters Like. Your stance is just like hey, this is how I feel as a as a dad, as a citizen, as a guy who likes to play golf, so go ahead.
Speaker 3:Well and I think going and I don't even remember what I what I just said, but I'll stem it back to economic development. Economic impact, whether that is financially, or the way of life, the quality of life, both financially and not financially. The benefits of golf being run by the cities that allow it to remain inexpensive in a non-expensive sport, most people that come here when they show up to get to their to pay and they're like it's $48 and like, oh no, I'm playing 18 and I have a card Dude, that was 18.
Speaker 3:That's yeah, and a card. They're like wait what? And so the fact that we can keep that and that, and I think the importance of that, both as an economic driver for our residents and for visitors. If it were to go to private, completely private here and I know you're not saying that, but I think it's alluding to that because you sell one and it's like, oh, like, you know where does it lead to? I just think that the economic benefits outdo the public when they're run publicly, the way we have them, versus all private and mccrae.
Speaker 1:This is just. It's uh, I'm just throwing this in the air, you don't have to answer. And what value is there in tradition? We've seen what happened with dixie, right, yeah, is there value in tradition and that there's no answer to that. But is there a non-quantifiable value in the tradition of the city having golf? All right, robert, what do you got?
Speaker 2:I think I think all your points. I don't think you're wrong. I don't think you're wrong on the importance of what golf can have to the community, beyond the financial aspect of things. I, like I said before, I don't think the city needs to completely get out of golf. However, I'll remind and really drive home this point you can't think of another industry in which the government competes against a private business that that would be acceptable. There's not one that exists to you. So this is the only business in which the government is allowed to compete and sometimes sink a private business. It could, it could possibly do it. It hasn't happened yet. They've bailed out the failed businesses before.
Speaker 2:So I can see there's value in the in the city governments, the county governments, governments having municipal courses. I see value in that, municipal courses. I see value in that. I also see that in times of massive change, rapid growth, forward-looking cities and counties need to start weighing out what is best for the long-term use of the land, use of the water. Fundamental things, fundamental things use of land, use of water, use of energy, use of resources. The government is needed to do those things If they aren't allowing themselves to be open to the opportunity of changing course on something that once worked, and has worked at a great degree, and look at other options.
Speaker 2:They're failing the community, they're failing to give a proper accounting for what their job and what their role is, and I think that needs to be discussed. It can't be a third rail where it's like you touch golf and it's electrocuted, because that's kind of how it is, because there's so many passions around it. You know we've talked about it, but I've talked to lots of people about it. It also feels that way on the other side as well. Right, If just asking the question poses this massive backlash against it, that's a problem. So I believe strongly in looking forward in the future and saying if we have a golf course that's nicknamed the Ditch I love that you started, that, it's fun. If it's nicknamed the Ditch, could we consider that this land, resources and business could look differently in the future? And is that progress in the right direction? And I I think there's. I think there's opportunity to do that right now. I am against reinvesting in the St George ditch at this point. That's my, that's my final thought, by the way.
Speaker 1:And me as the. I didn't convince you at all, yeah, I don't think I convinced you at all. And as a mediator, I'm pro considering reinvesting in the ditch. How do people reach um all of you, lovely gentlemen? Where do they find you?
Speaker 2:great job, dude. You're so good at this.
Speaker 1:I've done a few 13 years of shows, follow like, subscribe and, if you're everybody watching this is already, uh, subscribed to yours, so I don't think. Yeah, you have like 10 million people that follow your youtube page and you can find me at larkin group if you want to talk to me about it and I'm mccray hepler and it's just mccray hepler on any platform yeah, yeah, yeah. At larkin group, at mccray hepler 435 podcast.
Speaker 2:Last last thing uh, what was the um question? We asked? Do you think it's six?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, would you play it?
Speaker 3:Three hole six hole, three Three six hole, three six hole courses. Three six hole courses With a dragging range. Let's just keep it with. Would you play on a six hole course? Would that make you more likely to golf if you knew there was a six hole course?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you could play six holes, or you could play 12, or you could play 18 holes. You could play six holes, or you could play 12, or you could play yeah, and we're gonna play 18 and we're gonna call it 60 minutes.
Speaker 1:On an efficient day, 90 minutes probably worst case, would you do?
Speaker 2:that, is that an idea that would catch traction? Let us know in the comments. Direct message us.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening guys, have me dudes, we'll see you out there, all right?
Speaker 2:thanks for listening in. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe. Make sure you're following us on all the social media websites. We love your support. We love the dialogue. We want to continue that going. Find us at realestate435.com.
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