Resilience in the Face of Personal and Professional Challenges

When life throws a curveball, how do you catch it without getting knocked off your feet? That's the crux of our latest conversation on "Behind the Tool Belt," with a focus on mental health and personal growth. Our insightful guest, a dynamic leader and entrepreneur, joins us to share his journey through the ups and downs of life's challenges, including a bout with COVID-19. We tackle head-on the struggles with insecurities and the darker moments that can lead to self-harm or thoughts of suicide. Our discussion goes deeper, considering the roles of spirituality and religion in finding balance and direction in life, and the surprising paths that embracing one's faith can reveal.

Waking up on the right side of the bed can mean the difference between a day won or lost, and we get into the nuts and bolts of starting each day with a burst of positivity. Personal anecdotes and experiences are interwoven with the teachings of thought leaders like Jordan Peterson, offering a fresh perspective on navigating the complexities of life while maintaining mental well-being. Plus, we don't shy away from the importance of sharing our problems, the stigma of seeking help, and the profound impact that transparency and vulnerability can have within our personal and professional lives.

Final thoughts in this episode revolve around the delicate dance between career ambitions and the sanctity of family life. We delve into how redefining roles at work can lead to a harmonious blend of high performance and personal well-being, the art of setting boundaries, and the magic of empowering leadership in creating a thriving, positive team environment. With a touch of personal wisdom, our guest underscores the importance of recognizing the quality of life over the relentless pursuit of success, and the transformative effect it has when you lead with trust and empowerment. Join us for an episode that might just offer you the perspective shift you've been seeking.

Transcript

Ty Backer: 0:01

And we're live. Welcome back everybody to behind the tool belt, episode 2, 16. Today we have another special guest. Stay tuned. We will be back after our short intro from our sponsors. Well, well, here we are again, episode 2, 16 and behind the tool belt. Thank you everybody for joining us. If you haven't already, please, like love, subscribe to our YouTube channel. We are now live on Facebook, obviously, and then YouTube as well, so we're live on YouTube. So subscribe to that channel and check us out on Apple Play and Google as well on the playback. So thank you again. We have another wonderful guest and my man. How are you, brother? How's it going?

Ammon McKinlay: 1:15

I'm doing really good man. I just got well still getting over COVID, so I got some lingering sinus pressure and crazy stuff going on, but overall can't complain.

Ty Backer: 1:28

Good stuff, man, good stuff. So it's been quite a while since we've we've spoke, we haven't seen each other for a while. Remember, I think the first time I met you, it was at a revolt retreat, it was a free free, the free retreat down in Gatlinburg. At least two years ago, maybe a little longer than that, I believe you were the one that signed me up, weren't you?

Ammon McKinlay: 1:50

Yeah, I remember it was the easiest deal I ever made. I just, you know, we had our pitch and then I came and sat down with you and I said so what do you think? And you were like I'm in.

Ty Backer: 2:05

Yeah, I went with a purpose. I don't even think I was beyond being on the fence, I was already. I already fell off the fence and I was leaning into needing something in my life at that time. You know we had a small conversation before going live here, you know. Just, you know self improvement and stuff like that and and trying to reach that next level and how to do that right, stepping outside my conference, and usually is what that takes, and for me that was one of those things.

Ty Backer: 2:32

I drove eight hours to Gatlinburg by myself in my pickup truck To a remote location in the mountains of Gatlinburg and and stumbled upon this beautiful cabin that we are at and a group of like, like minded young men were there and the coaches, you guys. I think that's where I met Ken Jantz for the first time to to be honest with him. He was doing his be real thing. But that that has definitely changed my life, you know, not just professionally but but probably most importantly personally, and and I feel like that's kind of where our conversation is going to head today is that personal growth, mindset. We've been talking a lot about mindset and not so much on the mental health aspect of that, but have touched on that. But I think mental health I miss something that a lot of people don't like to talk about, whether it be men or women, whether it's an uncomfortable conversation, or or maybe we feel like it's a sign of weakness if we share with somebody that you know I'm experiencing insecurity, self doubt In, maybe even deeper than that. You know, when you really go down into that dark, deep pit of you know self harm over drinking, thoughts of suicide, whatever, whatever, however deep you allow yourself to get there, and a lot of times it's because we don't reach out for help.

Ty Backer: 3:58

I guess I wanted to pick your brain a little bit on those things, because I know you've been around the block, your, your, you've been a leader, a pillar in your family and your community and things like that. And I know being an entrepreneur, you know, and you being in leadership positions that you had to have had, experienced you know self doubt and insecurities and all those things. So so why don't you, why don't we, why don't we talk a little bit about that and then maybe we'll circle back to a little bit on. You know some of your, your professional experiences of like where, where you worked and how you got where you're at today. If you don't mind, we'll kind of do this and reverse engineer this a little bit. Maybe that'll lead into where you are today.

Ammon McKinlay: 4:40

Yeah, I mean, I guess, just on that topic, mental health, it's it's not something I ever really thought about growing up, you know, like, because, like you said, we grow up where our goal is to be like macho and masculine and you know, I was just a, my whole life was football, when I was in high school, that's, or when I was in high school and so like everything was all about just getting to the next level, in, like my physical appearance, my strength, my speed, my size and just performing better as a football player, and I never really thought about like my mental health or like taking time for myself or anything. And I wasn't. You know, I grew up in a religious family but I wasn't like necessarily like I would go to church, because my parents took me to church, you know, but I didn't really, you know, never really prayed or like embraced it. I guess you could say I didn't, I didn't like reject it, so to speak, but I didn't embrace it. It was just kind of like a part of my life, because it was a part of my family's life, and then I I always had it in the back of my head like as soon as I graduate high school, like church isn't going to be for me. And here I am, what, 12 years, 13 years after high school, and it's the, it's the complete opposite of that. Like, my faith is everything and it, you know, it took, it took some. It's a couple years after high school for that for me to have kind of that smack in the face of like hey, dude, you know you really do need God in your life and I will go into that too much. But I turn, you know, turned a direction and went and served a mission for my church for two years and that is really, you know, that kind of laid the foundation for my mental health, because I lean on my faith a lot. Everyone has their, their thing. I dive into the scriptures, I dive into prayer.

Ammon McKinlay: 6:48

I read now, you know, I used to read a lot of business books and I found, you know, once you learn enough about a certain thing, it's like more information is kind of redundant. You just kind of need to just keep doing that thing and improving personally and learning through experience. So I kind of got jaded with business books. I haven't actually read a book in a couple years like finished a book, but I just recently started reading other than my scriptures. That's all I read. But I just recently started reading a book from a recommendation by one of my dad one of my football coaches growing up called bonds that make us free and it's like I'm like totally engulfed in it and it's it's a mental health book, it's all.

Ammon McKinlay: 7:38

But it's not what you would think. It's all about how we interact with other people and the way we treat others, and not the way we treat them per se, but the way we think about them. And if you've ever, have you ever heard of the Arbinger Institute? I think, yeah, there's that book, leadership and self deception, that goes around a lot. So it's like one of the unknown books that one of those guys that started the Arbinger Institute wrote. It's like a really unknown book, but I read all those books leadership, self deception, all that stuff and then this one is just it's really good because it makes you step back and think about you know, really, every problem you have with another person is just you projecting what you think that other person should be doing onto them and not really understanding them.

Ammon McKinlay: 8:31

So, anyways, to kind of, I guess, summarize what my thoughts are on mental health recently is just A like take care of yourself spiritually, whatever that means for you. Take care of yourself physically Eat good. I don't eat the best, I don't, but I don't go crazy. And then the next one is just like managing the relationships in your life, because I would venture to guess that most people who struggle a lot with mental health it's directly connected to relationships. I could like I'm not a scientist or psychologist or anything, but I think that's probably a hundred percent fact that anybody that struggles with mental health it's in some way related to a relationship they had in their life. That would be my guess at least.

Ty Backer: 9:29

Yeah, yeah mixed title could be from a parent. You know a bad relationship with your parent or the way that you were treated or the way that you felt that you're being treated, whether it be abuse or mental or physical abuse at that. But this is such a great topic because I don't think again. It's probably really uncomfortable for a lot of people to talk about spirituality or religion and there is a difference between spirituality and religion. Right, you can be a big time Bible bumper and find your spirituality that way, by attending church on Sundays and stuff like that and feeling that sense of you know that's where you get your fulfillment from. Right, like the sense of fellowship and camaraderie and being a part of something. Right, other people join other groups to find that fulfillment and that sense of fellowship and camaraderie. And you know we try to do that here at TC Backers is create a camaraderie. Right, you know we get involved and we tackle tasks and stuff together and feel that apartness, that alightness, in ways like that. And you know and some people might find it otherwise you know spirituality can be found, you know, in nature. Right, going for a hike with your family, with you know those who you know that you love dearly and spending that quality time. So it's kind of like a twofold thing right, like you're going out into the wilderness or the you know in whatever, down to the lake or to the beach or the ocean, right, and you're spending good quality time with your family and stuff like that. And I know, for me, when I feel like I'm banging on all eight cylinders, like that's at least two or three of those cylinders, if I'm operating on eight cylinders, right is the relationship and the quality time and those promises that I made to them right, whether it was a verbal promise or that consistency, just you know that being consistent and present in their life, right. And I think a lot of times we don't realize or identify that. We just know something's bothering us but we don't know what it is and usually it's because we're lacking somewhere, there's a deficiency in the time that we're spending at home with our family, the quality time, or procrastinating at work. But you know, not getting cast on, not don't know how to manage my time wisely. These are all things and I'm speaking from experience, you know going through my head right now because this is live, raw and uncut and unscripted here. So I'm just sitting here thinking of some things that I do to myself to sabotage myself. You know, not enough sleep, right.

Ty Backer: 12:12

I have a regimen of things that I try to do at the house, particularly in the morning, and my Claudio talks about you know, when, fast, when, often, right, and I talk about a little bit. I kind of a little spin off that is, you know, stack as many wins as quickly as possible, right, and that's in the morning. And the first one for me is just being able to open my eyes and put my feet on the floor and gasp a sober breath. That morning I'm waking up, sober, right, I'm able to wake up, my arms are open. I read from two books in the morning Ryan Holidays, daily Dad and Daily Reflection. It's a daily affirmation book, it's a spiritual book, it's not a Bible or anything like that, but it's where I go to seek my spiritual advice from, along with some other literature. And so that's two wins right there, three wins. And then I always take a cold shower, right, and that's just big. Yeah, you know, right there, I've already stacked, you know, three, four wins out of the gate. Spent a couple minutes with Jana, spent a couple minutes with Rocket. Now I got my armor on and I can go out.

Ty Backer: 13:21

And I just heard something today. Actually, I was listening to a podcast this morning. I can't remember the guy's name, but he takes a cold plunge every single morning under 50 degrees. And the reason why he does that is because he feels as if there's nothing more complicated that he'll have to deal with, or more you know. If he does that jumps like, gets enough courage to get into the to that cold plunge every morning. There's not going to be anything more difficult throughout the course of the day that handle than getting into that cold plunge. And I thought you know that's, that's. That's really cool, because a cold shower is one thing, but when you engulf yourself, embody, embody yourself into you know, 49 degree water, that's. That's quite a system shocker.

Ammon McKinlay: 14:10

But there's certain things Is a lot colder than you think it is, if you've never been 49 degrees and it is freezing cold.

Ty Backer: 14:18

Heck, yes, absolutely, absolutely. And I think a lot of this has to go into self-awareness. That like, what don't I like? What makes me feel uncomfortable? What have I not been doing? What do I need to be doing? What should I be doing? And I think a lot of that goes into and we talked a bit about this last week was is those promises we make to ourself and break along with that tarnished or bad relationship that you may have had when you were younger, that manifests into a negative in your life, opposed to allowing it to manifest into a positive and using that adversity to to overcome things. Some people kind of get stuck in that. Yeah, I guess.

Ammon McKinlay: 15:03

Yeah, one thing, that one resource that I've learned a lot from just about you know life and mental health and you know what's important that that isn't necessarily spiritual is I love Jordan Peterson. He's his books. I've read all his books 12 Rules for Life, beyond Order, the maps and meeting. One is like 36 hours long on Audible, so it's like I haven't, I haven't. I've read some of it, but not all of it, but that one's pretty long. But then he's got. He's got a series on the daily wire, like anything from Jordan Peterson. I gobbled that up Because I feel like that guy kind of like he takes a stance that everyone can agree with, regardless of religion or political affiliation.

Ammon McKinlay: 15:53

Well, a lot of I mean, he does talk about politics a lot, but everything he talks about is like rooted in, like what's scientifically true, you know. And one thing his, his first rule that he writes about ever in any of his books is stand up straight with your shoulders back. That's the first rule that he writes about in his first book or his well, it was his second book but like when he wrote 12 Rules for Life, he thought this has to be number one stand up straight with your shoulders back, and I think that's a really cool mental health tip, you know, like for anybody, even just to physically do it, you know, stand up, put your shoulders back. It just makes you feel more confident, more in control, and so I I love that, like anybody, you know, anybody that's listening, that's like struggling or needs to start there.

Ammon McKinlay: 16:44

I would start just download Audible, start listening to Jordan Peterson's books, because, man, they're so stinking good. They helped me a lot. You know, I probably started listening to him four or five years ago and I just love listening to the guy. So that's a good, a good resource that I I like to listen to. And every now and then I'll just pop on one of his like lectures that he does on the Daily Wire app and just listen to his lectures because they're live, they're unscripted, and it's really cool to hear him like he just picks a topic before he thinks about it and then he just gets on stage and he just riffs on that topic. I think those are the coolest ones to listen to because it's not scripted, it's not planned and he's reading the audience and if he's going down a direction that he can tell people aren't engaging in, he brings it back. It's really cool.

Ty Backer: 17:34

I love that. That sounds like I kind of tried to do it too. I'm a non scripting, powerpoint, proactive type of person, more reactive to how the crowd feels or the vibe that I'm getting and the few speaking engagements that I've done. But you know, sitting here, why you were talking. I was thinking about when you were talking about, you know, in high school and being physically active and playing a lot of sports and stuff like that, and I don't think you said that you felt like you were in a better mental state back then. But if you were, do you think it was because you were physically active, like whether it be exercise, watching your weight, sleeping well, and then, on top of that, the fellowship and the camaraderie that you felt being a part of a team effort.

Ammon McKinlay: 18:24

Yeah, you actually just gave me a really good thought on that, like literally split second. I just kind of had this little epiphany because you're making me think back to that. I wasn't in a pretty good mental state back then. You know I was physically active but I had not a care in the world man. I mean I was having fun with friends. You know my parents middle class you know I didn't have all the nicest stuff or anything, but I wasn't like poor by any means and so I had like a really good childhood. I had really good parents who taught me a lot. I was a knucklehead. They had the discipline me a lot but at the same time, like I had a great, great upbringing, you know, with all the challenges I had.

Ammon McKinlay: 19:07

But the difference between then and now is I had like no responsibility. You know I had no, I had not a care in the world, nothing, nobody to be accountable to other than my parents and my teachers. But I didn't really give a crap about and like the only thing I could think about was my selfish desire to be an all state running back. You know, like there's a lot less pressure. There was a lot less pressure back then as opposed to now, where you know I'm a department lead now in my company and I had, you know, managed a bunch of clients. I have two kids and a wife and a house and a truck and insurance and and all you know, taxes, all these responsibilities that we have now as adults. And that's where I think going back to revolt, that's where I think like the first revolt retreat I went to, it really kind of like that was the. I told Hunter this when after the after the retreat, I said that was the most impactful experience I've had since I went on my mission for my church and it was seven years between when I got home from my mission to going on that retreat.

Ammon McKinlay: 20:22

Because nobody does those things Like we don't. We get so overwhelmed with all these responsibilities that just stack up as we get older. Like life doesn't get easier. As you get older you think as a kid you're gonna be, you're gonna have all this freedom, and it's like it's not freedom, that's all. It's like more responsibilities, like more bondage that you're in for all the bills and the people that look to you for solutions. And to take those two days in a weekend and like invest in yourself.

Ammon McKinlay: 20:55

It meant a lot to me and that's why I ended up joining the team over there and so I think stuff like that is so needed, and to do it in a community setting you know, nobody in that group is a mental health professional, you know what I mean Like we're all just kind of a bunch of redneck roofers. Like you know, nobody there is like an expert on. You know nobody's a therapist or anything, but it was therapy. I think you could agree with me on that. Like it was super therapeutic to just talk with other people and air things out and get things off your chest and, and you know, writing your own eulogy in the words of somebody that loves you. Like stuff like that.

Ammon McKinlay: 21:37

We just don't do those things in our society. It's not encouraged, it's not, it's not something that people generally think about. And I think you know, looking back, I don't think I've ever I don't think I've ever thought, hey, I really have a problem with mental health. Like I got really depressed at one time when I had an injury that set me back physically for a really long time like five years and I did get pretty depressed and gained like 50 pounds, but I never got too far mentally into that negative space and just like it sucked, you know, yeah. But then you know, on the tail end of that is when I went to that retreat and I was like holy crap, man, I've been neglecting this part of myself for a really long time, you know.

Ammon McKinlay: 22:31

So I think as adults we all have to have a community like that. It doesn't have to be a therapist I mean, I think it'd be cool to go see a therapist and find out what's really wrong with me and fix it. But it doesn't have to be that. It can be just people who care about you and I think that's the most important part is like being around people who want the best for you, care about you. Nobody's gonna be perfect, you know. Your relationships in life are always gonna be challenging, but to have a community of people who wanna lift you up, I think that's one of the best things you can do for mental health.

Ty Backer: 23:07

Yeah, for sure, for sure, a lot of good stuff in there While you were talking. There was a lot of good points there. You know the group therapy part of that group of people, right, and it goes back to the fellowship and the camaraderie and being around like-minded people who may have suffered from the same situations that you have. And I think the biggest thing too, at least for me. I think most people worry about being judged, right. So if you can be like in an atmosphere of a judgment-free zone area where you feel like you can be really vulnerable, and I think everybody needs that person or group that they feel in it and, like you said, it could be a therapist, right. And I think that's the thing, like a lot of people don't know, like not to deal with things so much. And the hardest part for me was just to reach out and ask for help, like hey, I need help, I'm struggling here, but I really can't put my finger on it. But do you mind just listening to me for a minute? So then maybe I can hear how ridiculous it sounds, or maybe it doesn't sound that ridiculous to that individual that I'm sharing that experience with, and I think the hardest part is finding either that group or that individual and there is nothing wrong with getting a counselor. Ed Milette talks about it all the time. I think he's a part of I know Ed Milette and he's a big frickin' influencer, huge. The biggest right and I think he's the biggest parent with influencer on the circuit right now is Ed Milette and he talks about going to see a therapist and I think he even runs an ad for finding a therapist or something like that and he talked about it. It's like it's no different than having everybody's got it. Every professional athlete has a coach, whether it's if you're a baseball player, like you've got a coach that works with you on strengthening your arm muscle. You've got a coach that works with you with accuracy and all different types of things. And again, we were talking about sports and stuff like that. You could use sports with so many different analogies and stuff like that. But it's okay to reach out for help, whether it's in a group setting. I know a lot of people that attend the same groups that I attend and some of them are probably even on here watching and listening to this and being able to get honest feedback in a judgment-free zone is.

Ty Backer: 25:36

I think that's where the difference is between somebody that goes five years of a situational depression, right?

Ty Backer: 25:43

Because if any depression that I've ever experienced myself with situational, there's clinical, I guess, clinical depression and then there's situational depression and I've put myself in situations where it was an injury or whatever the situation was that had created self-doubt, all those things that make me feel insecure, right, and really what it comes down to, it comes down to fear.

Ty Backer: 26:08

Fear is one of the biggest driving forces that people don't even understand that, how self-fear motivated we are, whether we're not gonna do something or we're gonna do something, based out of fear, right, and the fear of being judged, the fear of not being able to complete something, fear that I'm gonna gain something, fear I'm gonna lose something, and to be able to get that, they say a problem shared is a problem cut in half, and I think a lot of people don't understand that.

Ty Backer: 26:39

They just open up to somebody and say, hey, man and Vic and I had a conversation about some things that's been weighing on me here, I'd say, probably over the past few months, and that's the thing, and I'm going through the uncorkable daily tasks that I put myself through. So nothing's really changed other than my mindset, the six inches between my ears on how my perception of things right, and it's like why did that start happening? What situation happened several months ago that kind of deviated me from my mindset that I had before and I would have probably never figured that out If I wouldn't have gotten it out of my head, verbalized it to Vic and we were both. It was funny how we both had like that aha moment.

Ammon McKinlay: 27:26

Yeah.

Ty Backer: 27:28

You know, and the crazy thing was is that he was experiencing something similar along the same lines as I was. And if I would have just opened up to him frickin' three months ago, maybe I wasn't ready, maybe the timing wasn't right, but like, why did I put myself through all that anguish, that pain, that self doubt, that insecurity, all of those things? And I think in a leadership position we can't be that vulnerable around people. I think we think that, right, like, where are the companies to have all the answers? And then what happens is you start struggling with and we talked about this decision fatigue. Like God damn it, I just can't make another decision right now. Like I'm done, thinking, stop asking me questions, right, and then nothing happens. And then you kind of start doing that downward spiral where it's like I can't deal with it anymore.

Ammon McKinlay: 28:17

Well, I mean that transparency, like you said.

Ammon McKinlay: 28:22

I think it's like you said when you said a problem shared is a problem cut in half.

Ammon McKinlay: 28:28

It really is like therapeutic, just to get it out, and there's like there is like science behind that that I just heard something recently where you know it was some kind of study where people who write down their problems, like their problems, just tend to go away. You know, like the more you just get stuff out and just unload it, the more relieved you're gonna feel, and I think it just goes to like not isolating yourself. You know, I think everyone who's depressed every anytime I've ever been depressed it's because I'm not sharing or asking for help, or it's like you just get in a bubble and you just feel sorry for yourself. And that's where, you know, just asking for help can be hard sometimes because we have pride, we think people aren't going to care, we think nobody understands me or I can't look vulnerable to this person because they're in my direct report. But I mean, I got sick last week and you know the two guys that I run underneath me on our team I'm just like guys. I'm totally aft right now.

Ammon McKinlay: 29:49

I'm not going to be good at this job for the next like four days because it's COVID smack me really hard and they were fine with it. You know it was just like alright, dude, we got your back, we'll step in and support as much as we can. And you know, wednesday I'm still behind on like 87 messages that I need to respond to. But the I know that like just sharing that with my team was therapeutic for me because it's like okay, nobody's going to be pissed off, everybody understands and I got sick, crap happens. So just, you know, transparency, I think is a is therapy in and of itself.

Ty Backer: 30:35

Yeah, yeah, transparency and vulnerability. Being vulnerable Right, that can also be a double-edged sword to. I guess being too vulnerable or to transparent at times can can injure us or even them at times. And again it's that sometimes that's a little difficult to navigate. But one thing I was thinking about when you were talking there is what made the difference in that situation and then was is the consistency.

Ty Backer: 31:02

Prior to that Right, they knew they could rely on you Right Up into that point and it's called the maybe this is a little little far fetch, but this is just what I was thinking about the trust bank, right, like every now and then we got to pull out a deposit, but you built that trust up to that point. It's like, okay, I'm sick and they had no problem filling in for you, filling your shoes. But that again also touches a little bit on that fellowship and that camaraderie. It's like, you know, because the culture is strong and I'm sure it is because I know you well enough to know that you work in an atmosphere where the culture is strong as shit. So when you were absent, your team filled in for you.

Ty Backer: 31:45

Because of the consistency, because you don't pull this every other week, you shoot up, you show up, you grind it out, you're there, you're probably the first one there, the last one to leave, and even when you're not there, you're still there. So for you and then, because that's because that's the kind of person you are, so you are your own worst critic, because you can't even allow yourself to be sick. You didn't even probably want to approach them, right Like, and what's, how's that? Saying go, I can't, I won't even get it right, so I won't even try. But it's something like you know, those that don't do enough think they do too much, and then those that do too much, they're not doing enough. Yeah, something like that, whatever, whatever that's saying.

Ammon McKinlay: 32:30

Yeah.

Ty Backer: 32:31

Yeah, but that's what you kind of probably mentally tortured yourself on, like, man, am I going to go to work? Aren't I going to work? Am I going to show up? Yeah, I'm actually going to take care of myself. And again, that goes into mental health, right, like I got arrested. In order for myself to get better, I need to shut down, and that's hard for people in a high level, you know producing position that that we're in. So let's talk about that a little bit. So did you give yourself, and how did you give yourself, time to rest, or didn't you?

Ammon McKinlay: 33:02

Yeah, I think you know I really did like in the in the past. I would have been really, really, really stressed about Holy crap there's. So in my job I have like three or four functions now. I used to just do account management where people come in, they need our help growing their business, growing their sales team, marketing related things and so I had like 70 accounts that I would manage. And you know we're doing every 10 days we're doing a coaching call with them and answering their messages and Slack all day. It's a really fast paced job, but it's like one thing that you're doing.

Ammon McKinlay: 33:47

And then November I cut my account load down to like 40 from 70. And I started doing marketing copy reviews for all the other account managers which there's 10 of, by the way. So their clients got. I got pretty good at copywriting and writing ads for people, learning from my boss, cole Gordon, who's a freaking machine. I've learned so much from the guy about just everything business related. But now, so now I'm in charge of marketing support for all 700 clients. I'm in charge of leading the marketing support team, which is just two guys now we need like eight more. I'm in charge of affiliate revenue like managing relationships with all of our affiliate partners and I still have 30 accounts to manage and so it's a lot of pressure and it's like a, it's like a growing phase for me where the plane is not built but we're flying it anyways.

Ammon McKinlay: 34:51

I literally, like I have such a good manager, is named Igor, and he's really, really strict with with us about like take time off, take care of yourself. It's such a high like stress, high like intense job you can you have to like unplug. And so when I got sick, I mean a year ago, I would have felt so guilty for rescheduling my calls. I would have just felt terrible, I would have felt like people are going to ask for refunds and I would have just had all this guilt. And Thursday I woke up and I was just like I'm cooked, rescheduled all my calls for this week. Nobody was pissed off, everybody was fine, told the team that I was just really feeling crappy and I took the weekend. I barely looked at my phone, you know, I barely checked it and I literally just laid on the couch with my wife and kids. We were all sick and just, you know, I just let myself rest and that was the first time I've ever really done that, where I just completely unplugged and and I'm not even stressed. So I still have so many things I got to get done. But the the the attitude I have towards it is like, hey look, worst case scenario, if someone's pissed off, we can always give them an extra week in the program.

Ammon McKinlay: 36:16

For me, being late On something you know what I mean Like it's not, it's never going to. The outcome is never going to be as bad as you think it will be or as you, as you, suspect it will be, if you get sick or drop the ball on something. You know it's like we're all human and everyone should understand that. And there are people who don't, who get pissed off about dumb things and they're like, oh, you didn't respond to me in five minutes, so I want my money back. And it's like, look, dude, this isn't, that's not like a professional way to think. You know we're all busy and so anyways, yeah, it was, it was good, it was like a good growing experience for me to just totally unplug and still this week I've got eight gazillion things and working late almost every night this week still, but I'm not stressed because you know I've had good leadership that sets the precedent.

Ammon McKinlay: 37:13

For me that's like dude, take care of yourself. Get everything done when you can get it done, clock out when you need to clock out and you know it's. It's very alternative to the attitude I think we're like preached about is like you got to grind till midnight. You got to. You know, sleep three hours, wake up in the morning, cold plunge, work out for eight hours, go to the like. It's a I'm. I manage myself with high I guess high standards, but low expectations. You know what I mean. Like I have high standards for myself and everything I do, but I don't just expect everything to be done and done right now.

Ty Backer: 37:59

Yeah, totally, totally makes sense and I like that point that you brought up. You know how, how your your, you know your teammates or your management team looks at things too, because that's the thing you know with, with the old school mentality, and I still believe it to a certain extent. You know, early on I was the first one here, in the last one even killed myself seven days a week and and honestly don't think that we would be where we're at today, nor set that president Of of you know the accountability thing. But this is the thing where it's evolved over the years, where it's kind of like a blend, a blend of you know, high performing and stay until the job gets done, like what, why we're off till tomorrow when we can do it today and being able to fill in for people when they take off because of the consistency and it's not an annoyance because they know that they would do it for them as well. Right, so if you can build that culture and that expectation and kind of like that trust bank up with your team where everybody's got that trust for everybody and that consistency, like I know, usually at 615 Kim's over in her office, by 630 Stacy's up in her office. So we don't normally we don't.

Ty Backer: 39:07

We don't have like a clock in, clock out time, like by eight to five, is it? You know the time, and it's like usually when somebody starts here, like one start time and it's kind of like we'll be here by seven, you know, but you'll see, you'll feel when, when people start to come in because what happens is when you do that they'll come in at seven they'll realize that half the staff and their coworkers have already been here for an hour, an hour and a half, yeah, you mean so. Then all of a sudden you start seeing them trickle in around 615 because they don't want to miss anything. Plus, they have that sense of I'm letting my team down because I haven't been here for an hour and a half. You know what I mean. It's like you almost got to pick and choose your battles wisely. It's like I don't really give a shit about the clock on the wall that you got to punch in and out of. Like we don't even we don't have that, other than on our production side.

Ty Backer: 39:57

We do have a clock in, clock out for accounting purposes, don't wrong, because we just need to. At the level that we're at, we need to know where the money's going, kind of thing and how to bid jobs and things like that. But if you can have the, the mindset or the, the atmosphere of like when you're here, we need you here. So if you have to go home and get, let the dogs out or get the kids off the school bus because the babysitter sick, then that's fine, go ahead. You know, let somebody know that you're leaving, obviously just out of respect, in case I walk over to your office and you're not there and nobody knows where you are. But it's such a tight knit group upstairs that everybody would have knew where they went around if the dog was sick or the baby was sick or the baby whatever.

Ty Backer: 40:41

Whatever the case might be, and typically what that'll do is is you either level up, either get pushed up, or you get pushed out right, because if you're not pulling your own weight, you're going to know it right away. If everyone's performing at a high level and this is the other thing if you kind of kind of keep that open, like that you're, you tend to get more out of an individual. If you kind of allow them the freedom to leave when they need to leave, clock out when they need to clock out. As long as they're being honest about it clocking in and clocking out right they'll go home. They're more apt to go home. Get the kids off the bus and fling open the laptop to finish out where it was, where they left off when they had to leave work. Yeah, if you can create that kind of atmosphere.

Ammon McKinlay: 41:29

Yeah, that's. I think that goes right along with, like, just having high standards. And when you're in an environment where people all have really high standards, you feel like you either have to level up to that standard or you just don't belong there. You know, and our team is the same, like that. You know, we don't have a lot of policies or things like that. Like, we have core values that we stand by, five core values that that we live by. But then, like our team, especially the team that I'm on, we have 10 account managers and we have two people in the marketing support department and it's just like we're all just grinding. You know, and we talked about it today on our team meeting we did a SWOT analysis of our team and it was like dude, everybody can do this job to a 10 out of 10 quality rating, like every single person here.

Ammon McKinlay: 42:29

And because of that, one of the guys on the team said who came from a different team he was like dude, the standards are just so high that you feel like there's no option other than to elevate yourself, which is really cool, and I think that again ties back to mental health. Like, if you're in an environment like that, it's only going to make you happier, better, more positive. If you can get on a team like TC Backer, you know it can make all the difference in somebody's life. Because you're just not, maybe you just don't have enough positive relationships in your life where people like Ty Backer can come put his arm around you on your first day and say, hey, how are you doing?

Ammon McKinlay: 43:10

Man? It's really good to meet you, shake your hand and it's like holy crap, this guy runs a huge company and he just called me by name and shook my hand. That's so cool. Never had that happen before at a job, you know. So it's really cool. It's a really cool topic because you know community. I think I think the essence of life, like what makes life meaningful, is family and community, and I think families are found in communities. It doesn't have to be blood. You know you and me could be brothers. You know you and me are brothers right, absolutely, I know we don't talk a lot Anytime.

Ammon McKinlay: 43:48

if I call Ty Backer up, he's going to have my back, no matter what you know. I just know that. So it's cool to have people like that in your life?

Ty Backer: 43:58

Absolutely, it is, you know, and this is the deal too, especially when it comes to the workplace. Like we spend more time here than we do with our own family, most cases through the Friday work week, right, like, let's face it. So why not create an atmosphere of joy, fellowship, camaraderie, oneness, accountability and accountability? I think a lot of times when people hear the word accountability, they think it's a negative, like oh my God, he's holding me accountable. But at the end of the day and we've talked a lot about this accountability means success, right, we want to see you succeed. If the company succeeds, you succeed. If you succeed, the company succeeds. And it's this rotation, the circular rotation of things, like, if everyone's succeeding, it's growth, accountability is growth and, at the end of the day, that's all we really want to see for everybody. And if you're going to be here, whether it's six hours a day or 12 hours a day, why not have and create, you know and Vic, we just listened to it today why not create a culture and a company that other companies want to replicate? And why not create a culture that everybody wants to work for, right, isn't that what we're trying to do, like? Like re-recruiting our team, like our retainage, like, let's talk about retainage, let's talk about recruiting.

Ty Backer: 45:21

How easy is it for you, your company, to recruit people? If it's not easy, then you might be the problem. If your advantage is horrible, well then again you might be the problem. You know, if you don't have a problem, if your team is recruiting people for you and then there's a laundry list and a stack of resumes that you get to sift through, you might be doing something right, you know. And it's not even about the pay. I mean, yes, it can motivate, but it's not everything. To want to suit up and show up and come to work every day. It's not about the pay, right? I'm sure people are mostly happy on Fridays because the director of HOSIT was there, but if they were miserable, because the atmosphere was horrible when they showed up, the money doesn't matter, they would go someplace else for a pay cut because the atmosphere was much more comfortable, they weren't being hazed, they weren't being picked on, the attitude sucked, there was no lack of communication, no communication, no vision, no drive and no growth. But if you can create an atmosphere of growth, right, like, where am I going to go? Is the end all to be all Nope, not at all. You know what I mean.

Ty Backer: 46:37

If you do this, you can do that, and if you let go and train someone else how to do that, then you can move into another position. You know, and if they're good people too, the team has a lot to do with it too, not just the leadership and being in the position. As long as I have, it is choosing the right people for the seats on the bus to be able to perform at that level right that we're hoping that they can perform at. If they're good, they also make other positions for themselves. When they're there, they create other jobs for themselves, and then somebody else can fill in that place. And that's kind of what happened.

Ty Backer: 47:12

I wish I could say that I was smart enough when I set out 17 years ago and these were the steps that we were going to follow so we could build a roofing company that you know. And just as a funny you know we're saying you know we're a roofing company that does marketing. But today we're a marketing company that does roofing, and not only just marketing to the public for our services, but we're also marketing ourselves to recruit other leaders, to attract other leaders, whether it's in our community or nine hours away in a community over there, you know.

Ty Backer: 47:48

And again, that happened by mistake, it really did, and I think it went into just treating other people the way that we wanted to be treated as an individual, right Like I've worked for people, I've worked for myself, I've been on both ends of the spectrum and it's kind of like, well, how did I want to be treated when I had worked for somebody else? What benefits did we want? What hours did we want to work, or whatever the case was. I think we implemented it and I think the biggest thing was and thank God this was a skill that came kind of natural for me was that it wasn't even about me even in the very beginning. Now there was a fire that fueled the fire to grow the company as rapid as it did.

Ty Backer: 48:31

But really where half of that came from was is like, oh shit, keith came to work for me and now I know he's married and he's got three kids. Oh shit, now I went on to burn that driving force original. The original driving force went away real quick when it was like oh shit, here's Friday, friday comes around and it's like I need to make sure Keith and his family eat, and then, when you actually can bear that and recognize and identify that burden, now, right, that's a big motivator to make sure that he's got everything that he has. But not just that, but his kids have shoes to wear for the first day of school.

Ammon McKinlay: 49:10

Yeah.

Ty Backer: 49:10

And I wouldn't know that unless I was a parent, but I want him to be the greatest parent that he can possibly be and get his kids new sneakers for the first day of school as well, and when you can look at it like that and treat people with respect and dignity and want to see them succeed and improve the quality of their life.

Ty Backer: 49:32

And that's where, personal and professional, it all starts here. You know it all starts here, and that's what's so cool about the topic that we've been talking about is because you know it starts with your personal. What am I doing outside of here, you know, not even outside of these walls In order to make me a better human being, so then I can be a better father, a better co-leader, a better son, a responsible, productive human being of society. What am I doing and when you can and you started to touch on this a little bit, and it's not really a religious thing or a spiritual thing, but the purpose, our purpose and this is the bottom line, right, and we've been probably peaches the purpose in life is to serve others, and if it's anything outside of that, it's just selfishness.

Ammon McKinlay: 50:26

Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's what this book that I mentioned in the beginning Bonds that Make Us Free it really is about just turning outward. It's like fixing your own problems by helping other people with theirs. And, like you said, I think you're just naturally that kind of guy where you just you wake up thinking about other people. You know, you got you probably got somebody new on your mind every morning. Hey, we just hired this person, we got to make sure we get them their tools or whatever. Like you just wake up thinking about other people rather than waking up thinking about oh my gosh, I got it. There are 85 people who are all barking at me and I just need a freaking break. You know, there's a big difference in the quality of your life when you, when you have those two different attitudes. You know, I would just I mean, I would put it on the line that 100% of the people who wake up the way Tai Bakker does are happier than the people who wake up thinking man, I'm so overwhelmed no-transcript, no doubt.

Ammon McKinlay: 51:40

You're barking at me. My life sucks. You just can't be happy when you wake up thinking about yourself, I guess. So, yeah, it is. I mean, you do have to, like we talked about earlier, you have to do the self-work, you do have to think about yourself, you have to fix things, you have to take care of yourself, but the end, the purpose of that is so that you have more of you to give to other people, and that's what I see, that's what I saw in you from the very beginning, man, when I met you.

Ammon McKinlay: 52:15

It's like you carry that presence of like you're just a good guy, that, like you, don't have very many selfish thoughts. You think you have more selfish thoughts than you do. I think Any time I ever talk to you, you're always like the first person to admit your flaws and how selfish you are and how bad of a person you are, and then everyone around you is like none of that is true. He's like the best guy ever. But it's just. It's cool to have leadership like you, where you're humble, you want other people to be successful and I think that's a big. You know, we have the same type of leadership in our company and if you look at, maybe not necessarily the biggest companies, but the best companies where people are happy. The numbers on the scoreboard, don't you know they matter, but they're not the most important thing in life. It's like what you know, the quality of your life. And if you look at the best companies not the biggest companies, but like TC backer closersio, yes, it's high performance, high standards. We're all going for results, we're all going for growth, but at the same time, the culture is really good too and everyone cares about each other.

Ammon McKinlay: 53:31

I guess my last thought from one of my leaders we were just talking yesterday on our one-on-one he goes. He got some leadership advice that you always have to be skeptical of your team, like never take their word for it, always be skeptical. And he was like I could not agree. I could not disagree more with that. He goes. I want to trust you. I want to know if I pass you the ball, you're going to make the shot. You know what I mean. I want to be able to pass you the ball and just know that that ball is going to go in the hoop. You know, like that's, that's what I think you know makes you a good leader, makes our leaders good leaders, is just like, dude, I'm going to pass you the ball. We've practiced, we've we've drilled, we've done everything we need to do, and it's your. It's your, your time in the spotlight now. And people love that. Everybody loves having a win that they can get padded on the back for, and everybody in the company rallies around them.

Ty Backer: 54:37

It's cool. It is cool. There's a couple of things there, you know, delegating right, and a lot of that has to do with trust, and when a person feels and knows that leadership trusts them, that is that's a game changer. Right there they're working for a paranoid and paranoia, to a certain extent, is is is good, is a good thing, it really is. But if, if you know, you don't delegate things to trust people, now that that in itself comes with a lot of self reflection upon that individual, that's that's delegating right. Like so you have to, you have to work on your tolerance for mistakes.

Ammon McKinlay: 55:22

Yeah.

Ty Backer: 55:23

This is the, this is the deal. You need them to make mistakes. You need them to drop the ball every now and then when you pass it to them. Okay, yeah, with that comes experience. You know how to assemble the ball right, and without that experience there's no growth. So if you're not delegating, your team's not growing right. They need to make the mistakes Hopefully it's not a costly one and in two words, that I've learned that that has been some of the most powerful words, just two words is you decide?

Ty Backer: 55:53

You decide, like, when someone comes in my office and they're like hey, it's like you decide, you know. And then they're like oh, okay, yeah, okay, all right, and you know that in itself, like or hey, I need, I need help with something. Like, if I go over to somebody else's office and say, hey, I need help with something, that again, vulnerability, transparency. I don't know everything, I don't have all the answers, but I need you, I need your help with something you know. They said who knows what that conversation looks like at the dinner table at home when they get home, it's like hey, man, I really helped tie out with this thing, we built this thing out and it was so great and he took my input, man, and I randomly just let me run with it. You know, or that man, my boss is such a fucking asshole he doesn't do anything to do, or I mean, that's.

Ty Backer: 56:46

That's the difference, like asking people and saying that you decide can change an entire culture of a company's momentum, of which direction and the growth, not just as the company, but the individuals that work within the company, the growth that they have personally and professionally. Their home life's better, their work life is better. Speaking of which, before we get off here, I wanted to talk to you a little bit, because when you said that when you were sick, that you got to chill with your family, right, the old man was sick. You guys are vegging on on the couch watching movies and stuff, myself included, struggle with finding that work life blend. How do you personally manage your time and prioritize, you know, self care While handling multiple roles being a father, being a husband, being a son, being a leader at work. How do you prioritize that and how do you handle that?

Ammon McKinlay: 57:42

That's a really good question.

Ammon McKinlay: 57:43

I think the biggest like liberating thing that's happened to me over the last couple years is I just gave up all the aspirations that I think that I thought I needed to be aspiring towards, if that makes sense, like I gave up thinking I needed to be the big, baddest, best guy in the world. You know what I mean. Like we look at guys like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos and Mark Cuban Like dude all these guys have been divorced. People hate them, like their closest relationships they don't have good relationships in their lives. And if it's like, if that's what it takes to be a billionaire like dude, I'm happy not being a billionaire, you know, and I don't think I ever really aspire towards being a billionaire, ever. Anyways, I mean it'd be cool, I would love to do it if life takes me there, but I would never want to sacrifice my values in pursuit of that. And there's really really good dudes that have built huge, successful businesses that you know, you and I can probably name tons of them. But I think the biggest thing that I just put all that aspirational bull crap on the back burner and I just wake up like how do I be the best husband, dad, how do I get, how do I be productive at work, like it's just more focused on the now than on the future. That was like number one for me. And then how I manage it. I mean there's nights where I work super late and there's, you know, days where I just get off right on time and I go hang out with my kids and it's just being intentional. I know that's super like overdone advice, but when I'm sitting there with my five year old okay, we have a five year old and a two year old Two year old all cute, he's, like you know, says funny things. He's learning new words every day and just like thinking about them and having awareness.

Ammon McKinlay: 59:49

Our two year old gets a lot of attention. He's the baby. He gets all the all the cuteness love Five year old. He's like in school now and being kind of a knucklehead sometimes and like making mistakes and we want to make sure we're like he gets in trouble and gets disciplined more than the two year old and so he thinks that you know, sometimes we are unfair towards him and we don't we don't discipline the two year old. He doesn't understand, he's only two. He can't, he can't really discipline that kid yet.

Ammon McKinlay: 1:00:21

But, having that awareness, I try to be intentional with my five year old and be like you did a really good job today. So cool to hear you had a good day at school, or, man, you did really good at that task or like, just like empowering him a little bit to know that hey, you're, you're my guy too, you know you're. You're not just like the five, the bad five year old that just gets in trouble all the time, like I want him to know dad's got his back and you know he can come to me. So I just I make time for little things. It's like five minutes here and there. Where you know, last night I went and snuggled him on his bed for for five minutes and just talked to him and cracked a couple of jokes and he loved that. You know he just appreciates stuff like that, because I knew we paid attention to the two year old all night because he was throwing tantrums and lots of stuff. So it was like, okay, dax needs at least five minutes to know that dad loves it. So that was like just a small example of how I I try to be in the same thing with with my wife.

Ammon McKinlay: 1:01:24

I'm probably the worst with my wife. She probably gets the least of them and attention of anybody. But when I, when I do, you know, when I am proactive about it, I just want to make sure she knows that she's special, she's important, I love her. I love her more than the kids, you know, like they get a lot of attention because they're always causing problems and stuff. But yeah, it's, it's tough to to manage, but as long as people know you care and that you love them and you take a little bit of quality time for them here and there, I think there are a lot more forgiving of hey, it's going to be a late night tonight, you know, because it does happen. It's always going to happen. If you're going to, if you're going to grow, if you're going to be successful, you're going to make your. It takes time.

Ty Backer: 1:02:15

Yeah, for sure, for sure. The biggest, the biggest takeaway from that is is, you know, when you're there, just be present, whether it's five minutes or five hours being present. And I struggle with that too. You know. We, we set up, you know, a little certain times and stuff like that, and it's hard for me to still put the phone down. And that's what I mean. I'll pick up the phone, scroll Facebook, check emails, check text messages, listen to voicemails and stuff like that.

Ty Backer: 1:02:38

But I am getting better of being present. When I am present, you know, because it's one thing to be there, right, like, yep, I made it, I'm here, but that's not. That's not what they want. They want your, your attention when you're there with, especially, your kids. So, what a great podcast. We're at an hour and, I think, five minutes. But, amen, man, let's stay in touch. Man, let's, let's nerd out on some, some personal growth stuff at some point in time, let's get back on here and get a group of us on here, like you said, do a little round table action that would be fun.

Ty Backer: 1:03:14

Yeah, I think that'll be a lot of fun and maybe some of the old crew from Revolt or Fuel or something like that get get a little reminiscing happening there and and the fuel and the early days of Revolt and stuff like that. So, thank you for coming on and thank you everyone for for tuning in today. Man, it looked like we stayed strong. A lot, of, a lot of viewership this week. We appreciate that.

Ty Backer: 1:03:36

Don't forget to share it, don't forget to like it, love it and even rate us on Google and Apple and YouTube and Zach I think Zach Fisher said we should stream this live on YouTube. It is actually on YouTube live right now so you can listen to it with your headset. He's a truck driver. He likes to tune in and listen to us. So, zach, thank you for tuning in and commenting in there when you can. So you guys have a great day. We will see you next week. It will be Chris Markey from two of the T Outfitters, one of my mentors, one of my great friends, local guys, so he'll be in studio next week. So you guys, have a great day and we'll see you next week for episode 217 of Behind the Towel Nice Experience.

Ammon McKinlay: 1:04:14

I'll see you guys next week for episode 219 of. End in inner AFR.