Behind the Toolbelt
Behind the ToolBelt is a live, raw, and uncut podcast that brings real, unfiltered conversations about business, leadership, and the entrepreneurial mindset. Hosted by Ty Cobb Backer, CEO of TC Backer Construction, this live show features industry leaders, innovators, and experts sharing their experiences, strategies, and insights. From building successful companies to overcoming challenges, each episode offers valuable perspectives for entrepreneurs and business owners and leaders looking to grow, and make an impact.
Behind the Toolbelt
From Banker to Industry Innovator: Karen Sager's Micro Mesh Journey
What happens when a corporate banker brings her financial expertise to the gutter guard industry? Karen Sager, President and CEO of Micro Mesh Gutter Guards, transformed from stay-at-home mom to industry innovator by asking one simple question whenever faced with limitations: "Why not?"
Karen shares the fascinating journey of developing a revolutionary copper-infused micro mesh technology that naturally kills moss, lichen, and algae—something manufacturers initially claimed was impossible. This persistence led to a groundbreaking product that's been field-tested in challenging environments like Seattle and Atlanta with remarkable success, culminating in multiple patents that continue to differentiate her company from competitors.
Through our conversation, Karen delivers priceless insights on contractor business strategy. She emphasizes understanding gross profit margins (ideally 40-50% for roofing contractors), systematizing operations early, and resisting the common trap of competing on price. "There's not a direct correlation between raising your price and having that many fewer people buy," she explains, upending the conventional wisdom that being cheaper wins more business.
For contractors looking to grow sustainably, Karen suggests establishing recurring revenue streams and offering fast-to-cash products like gutter guards, which can be sold quickly without permits while providing healthy margins. She also reveals how her company's training programs help contractors integrate gutter guards into their roofing systems sales without overhauling existing presentations.
Perhaps most valuable is her approach to customer relationships: "The cheapest leads are your referrals, and the people that pay the most are probably your biggest raving fans." This episode offers a masterclass in building a sustainable contracting business through financial literacy, innovation, and value-based pricing. Whether you're an established contractor or just starting out, Karen's journey provides the blueprint for standing out in a crowded marketplace.
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And we are live. Welcome back everybody to Behind the Tool Belt, episode 272. I am your host, ty Cobb-Backer. Thank you for joining us on this Wednesday edition. Today we have another special guest. Stay tuned. We will be back after our short intro from our sponsors.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Behind the Tool Belt, where the stories are bold, the conversations are real and the insights come to you live, raw and uncut. Every week, host Ty Cobb-Backer sits down with game changers, trailblazers and industry leaders who aren't afraid to tell it like it is no filters, no scripts, just the truth. Please welcome your host of Behind the Tool Belt, ty Cobb-Backer.
Ty Cobb Backer:Hey, hey, hey. Welcome back everybody on this magnificent Wednesday, and hopefully it's not raining where you are, because the sun is shining. Finally it feels like spring is upon us. So today we have another amazing, amazing guest. We'd like to introduce you to the behind the tool belt. She has nearly two decades of experience in the gutter guard industry. She is the president and CEO of Micro Mesh Gutter Guards and many, many, many other achievements that I'm sure she will share with us. Let's welcome Karen Sager with Micro Mesh Gutter Guards. How are you, karen?
Karen Sager:I'm fine. Thank you, Ty. Many thanks for having me here today.
Ty Cobb Backer:Yes, thank you so much for joining us. So I've gotten spoiled, because usually I have a bunch of my buddies that come on within the roofing industry on the podcast and we kind of just chop it up and drop golden nuggets and stuff, and so it's been a minute since I've had somebody on the show that I don't know personally, which is a shame, because it sounds like you've been in our industry for a long time and of course I've been in it, you know, 30 plus years myself. So it's a shame that we haven't crossed paths sooner, I think. But you know, that's OK, there's no better time than now. And you know, I think it's with the research that Vic has helped me dig up on you.
Ty Cobb Backer:It seems like you have achieved a lot of amazing things and I admire you, and I'm going to explain to you why I admire you, because a lot of people are on social media today and they're all over the place and they're showing these glam shots and how big I am and all of these things. But I feel like you've kind of moved in silence. You've, you've, you've created this empire, this, this gutter guard, micro mesh that just so you know. We, we've used micro mesh for a long time. Surgically uh, the, the surgically metal, you know, steel that that is on top of it. I love it. That was one of our biggest selling features was the surgically you know metal, stainless steel, metal that is on top of it, that it won't rust, and all that good stuff.
Ty Cobb Backer:But you have accomplished so much and I know so little about you and I don't know maybe just the circles that I run in and the circles that you run in. There's not a lot that I know so little about you and, and I don't know maybe just the circles that I run in and the circles that you run in. There's not a lot that I know about you outside of. You know a few little bullet points that we've been able to dig up on you. So, with having said all of that, you know, on your entrepreneurial journey, you know transitioning from banker into the gutter space, like let's talk about that that, what that was like that transition, how you got here and what it's like now.
Karen Sager:So I was actually supposed to be a stay-at-home mom for a little bit. I had had my second son he was very young at the time and my brother came to me with an opportunity and said hey, I found this product. It's called Leaf Filter. I think it's really cool. Take a look at it. Would you be willing to back me financially? And I said, ok, it looked different. It looked really different.
Karen Sager:He was a kid at our house when I was young who my mom sent up to climb the ladders and clean out the gutters, and so he and then he bought a house where he was under a lot of trees. I lived in a house where we had 12 old oak trees over the house. So you know, right now is the season where the oak trees start to bud and oak trees are tremendously dirty because they they dump stuff four times at least in the spring. So I was like, well, this is cool, I could use it. I see a lot of people could use it and sure, often I'll back you. So from there suddenly is like, well, could you do this for me, could you do that for me? And again, again, I was.
Karen Sager:I had young kids, but I could, I could manage some of that. And again, I had young kids but I could manage some of that. So I started doing that and just got more and more involved and, you know, move ahead many, many years. We left Lee Filter pretty fast because of the issues we were having with the product at the time and we moved to MasterShield, which was Alex Higginbotham's the inventor of Lee Filter, the original inventor of Lee Filter, and from there I have you know I've worked with Alex alone since 2008. He's subsequently retired.
Karen Sager:I bought the company from him and now I'm the one that's adding patents to our portfolio because we found things that we can you know I found things we can just do differently and better than, and a way to separate ourselves from everybody else that can call themselves a micro-mish too, so that's kind of the long and the short of it. And yeah, I'm not somebody that is not you know, I'll put myself out there when I have to, but I've not really been crazy in the public.
Ty Cobb Backer:Yeah, no, that's, that's for sure, that's for sure. And and I again, I admire that about you so much, you know, I thought that you know sometimes I was actually asked this question, you know, because we don't put a lot of stuff. Yes, I do a podcast every week and but we, we achieve a lot with our local community and throughout the, you know, the, the roofing industry, and we don't promote a lot of that stuff. And somebody asked me one time are you being humble or are you hiding? And I couldn't answer that question right away. You know, I had to really think about it because, you know, what I discovered about it is so our team it's not even me anymore, it's a, it's a.
Ty Cobb Backer:So what I discovered about that was is how selfish and self-centered was that of me by not promoting our team's accomplishments, whether it's celebrating with there on social media hey, look at me, the Lambo. I don't even own a Lamborghini, but I just I've never been one of those guys to like say, hey, look at me. And and and of course, vic, you know, tries to promote the stuff that we do as best as we can, but as humbly as we possibly can too. Because, you know, I guess it's that, that fear of God, what if we fail, you know? Or or what if we make a fool of ourselves? But but anyhow, I admire you so much for for all the amazing you know things that you have done, and you know it's funny because I was thinking to myself.
Ty Cobb Backer:One of the questions I ask a lot of people is, like, you know, one is work, life balance and and and things like that. But I think, before we dive into that because obviously you're a mother and I'm sure you're a fantastic and amazing mother but when you had that transition or that decision that you had to make, like okay, I'm a stay at home mom and now transitioning over to wearing the CEO hat, how did you do that? Did you have to educate yourself? Did you have to get a coach? Did you have to get a mentor? Did you have to get a mentor, like and because there's a paradigm shift that has to happen, right, like not that it's much different than managing a household, than managing a business at times, because it is an adult daycare center. But how did you do that and what did you have to do to make that transition?
Karen Sager:Well, I came from corporate banking, so I was in a structured world, for you know just a little bit shy of me deciding to become a stay-at-home mom, so that I was used to a very structured lifestyle. And so, from that perspective, it wasn't even about managing a household. It was like I thrive in this world. I thrive in a world where day to day is not the same. And so when you say, did you have to educate yourself? Heck, yeah. Suddenly I, you know, I came from analyzing financial statements to going we need a marketing campaign, okay. And oh my gosh, every time we hire somebody to do something, they make four out of 10 changes we ask them to make. If you did that in the banking world, you know, pack yourself up and walk out the door because that, would you know, you wouldn't last very long if you made that many you know, short, you took shortcuts and you didn't make that many changes. So I came in with just a fantastic background that just I could apply anywhere. And then it was like I'm just a naturally curious person. So, you know, when people would say you can't do that, I would be like, well, why not, right? So you know you can't, you know you can only sell a gutter guard to a gutter company. Well, why? You know you can't. You can't pitch a gutter guard to a gutter company? Well, why. You know you can't pitch a gutter guard like a roof line? Well, why not? And you know our big thing now, which is copper in our stainless steel filter to kill moss, lichen and algae. I went to the people that weave micromesh cloth and I said I want this. And they're like no, you can't do that. And again, another, why not? And sure enough, you know, close to I think we got our first sample about 10 years ago when we put it in the field 10, you know, 10 years ago. And and now look at us, it's going into more and more of our stuff. And we've got we just got another patent on it. I guess I found out just yesterday that I'm getting another patent on that technology.
Karen Sager:So if you asked me, did I think I was going to wind up patenting. No, I would say no, that was Alex's thing. And then you know, there's just been ways to just constantly say why not? So for me it's more of a mission of what I'm trying to accomplish, because I came from a world of risk and my husband's still in the risk. You know risk analysis world and if we can't sleep at night because we've taken on too much risk, I wouldn't be doing this. So it's like, ok, what can I do to reduce risk, how can I make it better? One better, one better? Like, okay, what can I do to reduce risk? How can I make it better? One better, one better? So it's more about having that sort of philosophy of a mission, of making a big changes that actually make a difference. That is more my driving factor.
Karen Sager:And along the way, self-teaching, book teaching, moving into coaching, coaching was okay. I actually wound up finding a mastermind group that I really really like and it's broad. So going you know something that you said before about, you know, putting yourself out there Well, how do you scale when it's you? That's. That was a big thing that I kind of got a handle on early on. It's got to be.
Karen Sager:You know, whenever I've looked at a business, even as a banker, it was looking at it as an individual. You've created an entity. They are call them a person, for lack of a better term, but they needed to be. They need to be be nourished and and treated right and respected and all those same things to become what they can become, and so ours is more mission than let's go out there and grow for growth stakes sakes and hope that we don't get a lot of people calling us because, gosh, when you know you know you're sitting at a at a baseball game on a Friday night and the phone rings because it rained yesterday, and you wind up with home on another homeowner calling to say my gutter guard's failing and it's your fault. I mean, that was the call we never wanted to get.
Ty Cobb Backer:So Of course, of course. I think that's every every entrepreneur's nightmare is is getting that call, especially over the weekend or on a Sunday or Monday morning, following up with all those emails and stuff like that. So no, I get that, so I. What from what I'm gathering is is that so your banking background has has helped you in many ways becoming an entrepreneur and traveling down that. So what ways do you think because I know that's something that you know, at least for me. I didn't have a banking background or an accounting background or even a business degree. Right, I just, you know, decided roofing kind of just found me, and here we are today. So how do you think, from coming from the financial world, how do you think you've applied that and how do you think that has helped you in so many ways over the years in in your business today?
Karen Sager:Let me say I've used it in different ways at different times. So first of all, it was just coming out of out of a corporate job where you saw how companies held themselves right. You know it was a level of professionalism that was starting at the lowest position as just an analyst and moving up to a vice president how you're supposed to present yourself in a situation. It taught me negotiating. It taught me. It taught me how to read legal documents and then how to read financial statements. On the financial statement side, it just meant that everything I looked at, I knew how to look at from gross profit, ebitda, all the things to keep a company profitable. And I would say most recently, I want to say about three years ago now, you know. Rather, it actually wound up changing my whole marketing approach because I focused on the fact that a lot of roovers and remodelers struggle. They went through the boom years of COVID. They made a lot of revenue, but did that revenue actually turn into profit, pocketable income for you as the entrepreneur, because you got to pay everybody else along the way? Did you price everything right so that you were actually making a decent living? And more often than not, we found people start, you know, starting business or existing businesses that said to themselves, I'll be just a little bit less than the next guy, and they didn't realize the next guy was having a problem keeping his lights on Right, so it was it.
Karen Sager:And then, just, you know, just delving into business stuff where it was just like, you know you can't. There's not a direct correlation between raising your price and having that many fewer people buy from you. That was a big aha moment for me. You mean we can raise our price by X percent and it doesn't mean X percent less will buy. Yeah, that's just the facts.
Karen Sager:Just do a good job and offer a better service than anybody else, and it should correlate directly, it shouldn't change anything. And you wind up meeting salesperson after salesperson where they you know somebody in the organization tells the story was that that guy said this will never work and then made more money than he ever did. Just by the, just by the owner. You know, rising, a rising tide floats all boats, so everybody rises. When, when you win, and as long as you provide a quality service and you know we're all in the service business right, we're here to do a good service for the people that we support, that's then. Then you can walk around with your head held high, charging the prices that you do for the goods that you sell.
Ty Cobb Backer:Yeah, no, I love that. I love that we recently had so we're again, we're, we're, our team promotes. You know, recently had, so again we're, we're, our team promotes. You know, tc Backer a lot on social media and we do a lot of local ads and campaigns and and things like that. Because that's just that's where you market today, right, that's where you put yourself, your presence and in hopes people call you or at least get you know some touch points and be in, bring brand awareness.
Ty Cobb Backer:So there was a local group and this was one of my fears. You know why we hesitated, I think, for so long to put ourselves out on social media was somebody had recommended us in a Facebook group and I saw, I guess the post was you know, I'm looking for an affordable roofer and two people. So somebody from our team put our, put our name in there, tc backer and and one of our local rivals were the rivals had mentioned they had, they said that they had said an affordable roofer, meaning that we're we're not, you know, affordable, right. So, but because they don't understand, and it actually was somebody that had worked for us about two years ago that decided to go out on their own and, of course, right away I want to fire back, and you know, because they don't understand value and they don't understand their worth and they're not going to stay sustainable for longevity and like they don't, you know, and that's the thing I used to not charge enough to. I think we all go through that.
Ty Cobb Backer:I think in the early stages that we think everybody wants to go with somebody cheap. And it's not always about that. It's not, you know. It's what it's costing you today. Are you going to be able to afford it later, when it costs even more money because you had to come out that didn't do a very good job and really, at the end of the day, that's what it's about. So pay for roofing and gutters and a good product that stuff's not cheap. It's not cheap. Stainless steel for micro mesh that's not cheap. But what you're paying for is the value and how long it's going to last. It's like the last time you're ever going to have to buy gutter guards.
Ty Cobb Backer:So if you can articulate that message well enough to a homeowner like, yes, I know we're a little more expensive, but let me show you apples to oranges here. Like, this product here won't last as long, transferable warranties, whatever the case might be, but there's so many contractors out there today and why I'm touching on this is because of the experience that you had prior to coming into the space that you're in now. So many of us lack all of those experiences, whether it's reading legal documentations, whether it's the art of negotiation, whether it's just running a business where it's just more than being on a roof all day long. And that's where I came from. I came from the labor side, the production side of things, into the actual business CEO position of our company. I'm a first-time, first-generation roofing contractor, so it has taken me and this is one of the unfair advantages that you have had coming from where you came from by knowing how to read PNLs, ebitda.
Ty Cobb Backer:A lot of people don't even know what EBITDA is. More, more so today because of private equity being in our space. But, shit, three, four years ago, nobody knew what EBITDA was. You know, um, prior to the PE coming into our space, but, um, so what would you recommend for for a company that's been in business, cause, unfortunately, uh, 80% of us roofing contractors go out of business in the first four years because of what you're you're, you're you're talking about? Okay, so what would you recommend for somebody getting or thinking about getting into our space, like what would be the first things that that they should do and educate themselves and what tools should they have.
Karen Sager:Gosh. Well, a financial statement is an easy thing or just a way of just modeling let's call it a simple model Like. So you have to start with understanding your costs and then putting the appropriate value on top of that. So you really want to make sure your gross profit is the number that you're starting with, it's not the be all and end all your pricing right vis-a-vis your gross profit, which is it's just your. You know what you're, what you're going to charge, minus your material costs, your labor costs, and in a lot of times in our industry you'll put in your commission in there, because that's the big, those are the big three expenses. So that number has to be a sustainable number and I can't tell you how often when I talk to roofers and I ask them what that is, it's like 25 percent or less there.
Karen Sager:And you know I don't think you can get it with a roof, but with gutter guards you can hit close to 70, over 70 gross profit. So I would start with you know, starting to pick numbers, that you'll have a sense of what your costs are back into that number. Secondly, gosh, a good sales training course is magic. You can't go in and wing it. You can't presume that people will buy on personality. You know seven to 10 steps to the sale. It's existed since the 1950s or 40s who even knows how long because it works. I think you can modernize it. We're very conscious of that and people buy perceived value, right, they have to your presentation to make. That sale has to get that value across, and if you do a good enough job, most of their objections should be handled even before you get to present price. So you're kind of negotiating with just one thing. Then a big thing from our perspective is how are you going to differentiate yourself in the market? We like to talk about selling in a category of one, and that means our product does these things differently than everybody else, so you cannot compare it to every other micro mesh and by doing that, because they can't get it anywhere else you're able to charge a premium for it. So that could just be as simple, you know, for somebody just getting started of just, rather than saying I'm going to be a roofer and I'm going to go sell X brands shingles, you're just going to sell a shingle and install it on a roof that doesn't differentiate you from anybody in the market. But creating a roofing system can suddenly start differentiating yourself. That could be the type of ridge vent that you choose to use. It could be how you flash. It could be that you add a gutter guard to be part of that roofing system. So a roof starts at the ridge vent and goes all the way to the front lip of the gutter. Those things in your storytelling become who you are, and it again adds value and allows you to charge more but also serve better as well. So I'm trying to and then from there, my last piece would be gosh, start putting in systems early often, and early right, because private equity won't talk to you if you are still.
Karen Sager:It's still very apparent that you, as the owner, are still working in the business rather than on the business. If you can't step out and shame on me. I'm not perfectly there, I'm. I'm not there yet I'm. I'm working my way up that food chain, but that's. I know that for a fact. They will. You know, if they talk to you, they, they, they want to see a business that's completely systematized. So start creating your, your workflows and your standard operating procedures as fast as you can. It makes training people on a process so much easier. And then, as you get bigger, you're refining that. But then you start to rely on who, not how. You move out of the who, which is you a lot of the times, as you're getting started into the how. How are we going to get this done? So?
Ty Cobb Backer:So good, so good. I think I said that backwards, so.
Karen Sager:I apologize. You want to put a who in and stop learning the hows. That's what I meant to say yeah, absolutely.
Ty Cobb Backer:Yeah, it's not how am I going to do this, it's who am I going to get to do this for me? Yeah, I've been on that mission for probably 10 years and still haven't perfected it yet myself either. I still tend to get in the weeds on a lot of things. That's so funny you say that, but you know.
Ty Cobb Backer:Getting back to you know the P&L and this is kind of how I broke it out Like and I loved how you mentioned you know the gross profit, because I think a lot of people run their business off of gross profit. Yes, it is very important and you need to know what it is that you're shooting for in order to allow enough money up there in the gross profit to to have your overhead eat away with. Eat away at that Right, and still have enough net profit right, cause that's really where the real flex is. You know, because everybody's so worried about revenue, like how much revenue? But the way that that I've broke it out into layman's terms for myself is it really starts with every proposal that you send out because, just like you had mentioned in your proposal, should be your labor cost, should be your material cost, should be salesperson's commission cost right, and then profit overhead and then grand total Financing.
Karen Sager:Yeah, If you're putting financing in.
Ty Cobb Backer:Yeah, exactly. So really on a micro scale, no pun intended. On a micro scale is that's how you come up with your gross profit. So if I'm bidding work with a 20% net profit per job, that translates into my gross profit for the company. You know what I mean. But if I'm saying to all my salespeople like, look, we have to have a 50% profit on each job, okay, then that's going to translate into a 50% gross profit on my P&L. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Karen Sager:You are 100% correct.
Ty Cobb Backer:So that's how I've tried to break it out and explain it to the rest of the team as I'm trying to pass the torch to somebody. Like, look, if you're bidding stuff, whether it's a commercial project, if it's a section eight, whatever projects, it could be retail, it could be storm, it could be new construction If we're not hitting our net profit on per job at 40%, we're not going to have a 40% gross profit. Considering the fact that I think a lot of people don't know how and this could be a whole other podcast is how to determine what your overhead is right and what percentage of that is my overhead? You know, but overhead is fuel, electric energy bills, utilities, like anything that it takes outside of your cost of goods sold right. Anything below that, the gray area right. I call that the gray area down there, all these things that just chew up that gross profit. That's everything from health insurances to new computers. I mean everything in that.
Karen Sager:All of that just marketing Right, like marketing, or the truck that suddenly needs a new transmission. You've got to plan for that, right. You need a slush fund to make sure that those things don't suddenly knock all your numbers off, right, like, first and foremost, figure out what what your gross, what what you're shooting for.
Ty Cobb Backer:And I think the the, the national average for roofing contractor it's not hard to find, just just Google it. It's somewhere between, I think, 35 and 50% gross profit, right, so I know that's kind of broad. So we, we here, we try to stay somewhere between 40, 45,. I'd like to see 50. But then that requires a whole lot of work of of beating the shit out of you know distribution and then not paying a good wage to you know your subcontractor or or employees or whatever the case might be, so that there's a fine delicate there. But what it comes down to, like you had mentioned earlier, we can charge more and people will still go, still go with us, like that's. That's a simple but not easy concept to to implement, you know, because I think a lot of us, especially early on, think that we're how we're going to be awarded more jobs because we're cheap.
Ty Cobb Backer:Well, I don't want to be known because we're cheap, right, and that's the thing.
Ty Cobb Backer:I think that's a question, that a moral question, that you have to struggle or wrestle with yourself, like do I want to be known because I'm cheap or do I want to be known because I provide value and I'm here to serve, I'm cheap?
Ty Cobb Backer:Or do I want to be known because I provide value and I'm here to serve? And I love how you mentioned serve because, ultimately, at the end of the day, if our, if our motives and our intentions are right and we're doing this right because we're here to serve and protect homes and protect homeowners and their shelter that most people's valuable, most valuable possession is their home, right, and that's why I love this industry so much, whether it's gutters, windows, siding, whatever, I love this industry because we are protecting people's assets right, their most valuable possessions, that they're raising their family, their kids, their animals, their pets, their dogs right, like we can do that every day. And you know what's cool about that is that we actually get paid to do this right, right and really good at it, because we're here to serve everybody. And it sounds like you do the same thing, but I know, do you got something you want to add to that?
Karen Sager:Well, I was just going to say so. If you're in the 40, let's say just 10 point range, we'll talk about 40, 50% range for your gross profit on a roof. That's where the little things that do add more value can just raise that number up a little bit. Install a higher end gutter guard and that's where you get the margin. That's what I'm saying. It's the little extras and you cannot lower.
Karen Sager:You can't take cheap products and put them onto a sale like this right. That's why the guy that is charging what he is is not using the best hangers for gutters, the best you know, vent caps or whatever it is. They're doing things and probably taking shortcuts that hurt the homeowner in the end and that's, you know, that hurts your reputation because from that perspective, people walk away and you know people are less inclined to tout a great experience and more inclined to tell or put a review online or just tell everybody that they know about a problem that they had. I have a restaurant that I went to once and to this day I still tell the story about how bad that experience was, how it was it just you'll never forget, right. And so 10 years on, and it's still in my head. That's human nature. So just doing it right the first time just naturally leads people to quietly, you know recommend you.
Ty Cobb Backer:Yeah, no, and that's your brand. Your brand isn't necessarily you touting from the rooftops, you know. You know micro, mash, micro. No, it's, it's your clients. Your clients become your brand, whether it's good or it's bad. Hopefully it's good, right, but you want them touting your name from the rooftops because you've done such a great job.
Ty Cobb Backer:And when you were thinking or when you were talking about, you know the quality of materials, right, like you can use, you know, an 027 gutter coil or you can use an 032 gutter coil, right. You know there's so many different factors that and I think, like you were talking about, like the story behind it and educating the homeowner, I'm like sure, yes, we could charge you 5,000 bucks if you wanted to go with a lesser grade product, and I think, I think that's a part of your story. I think that's a part of the value you know that you're giving the homeowner. Is is the education that they deserve, because a lot of guys will come in, they'll undercut you, they're using inferior products opposed to the inferior products and us not doing a well enough job explaining our value of like this is why the cost is what it is. Plus, we want to be here in 10 years to put the roof or the gutters on your next home too, and we can't do that if we're not charging enough. Today, and I think a lot of people live in the now and it's like and I think a lot of people do this too for just like a paycheck and don't look at it as a business. And it's unfortunate because of our space. There's a lot of us out there that haven't been educated themselves financially and how to read a P&L and those types of things, and that's kind of why I wanted to talk to you a little bit.
Ty Cobb Backer:You know, bring that up of the importance of it's. Just it, first and foremost. It's a lot more than just putting a roof on somebody's home. Ok, it's about understanding your numbers, it's about providing value and it's about being here and staying sustainable and not just having an impact on homeowners lives, but those that you bring into your organization right. If you're not trying to do enough, you can't give paid vacations, you can't have 401ks, you can't have, you know, health insurance plans, people, people.
Ty Cobb Backer:You want to make it a career, right For someone to come here, not just a job or a stepping stone, like you want people to come into your organization. You know, if you take pride in this thing and have families buy the second and third minivan to buy, have the extra Harley Davidson in the garage and all of the buy home. And for me, that's been one of my highlights of my career is when you know we had, we had two, two people off around the same I think it was around the same timeframe that were that were out on leave for pregnancy, like that. They trusted us enough right To to create a family, to bring a human being into this world, because of the safety and the security that they felt at their place of employment Right.
Ty Cobb Backer:And we can't do these things right If we're not charging enough money. So if anyone's listening to this and they're struggling like, oh man, I'm afraid to charge more money, well, wouldn't the person that's helped you build this thing, or taking care of some things that you don't have quite time to do, wouldn't they like a raise someday? Wouldn't they like to be able to buy a home someday? Wouldn't they like to, you know, go on vacation with their family and still get paid while they're on vacation, at least 40 hours while they're on vacation?
Ty Cobb Backer:So you know, these are all things that I take into consideration because at first it was very, very uncomfortable for me to raise our prices. But when you start looking at it from a different perspective of serving right, it totally changes everything, at least it did for me. The paradigm shift and the feeling that it gave me of the confidence, the confidence that it gave me, like this, is why we're doing this for you. You know what I mean. It's not. It's not. This hasn't been about me for for a long time. But unless you want to add something else to that, I'd love to talk about your patent on on your copper and and uh, explore that a little.
Karen Sager:I will. I will very quickly add one thing to the equation. I think every business needs to figure out in the in, the in in this space um, one, a reoccurring revenue stream, because that keeps you in front of that homeowner. And then two I'm going to forget it now Recurring revenue, and it's going to pop into my head in a second oh, dang, but the oh, and a fast to cash product. Duh, that's what we do. So a gutter guard can be installed on a Monday and, sorry, sold on a Monday and installed on a Wednesday, no, no permits required. So having something in your business that is again naturally high margin, that can feed cash into your organization rather than you know the time delays on other things. Or it's a way to use technicians to to sell when there's downtime. Sell and install when there's downtime. To sell and install when there's downtime. It's a way to cross-sell when your technicians sell.
Karen Sager:There's so many things you can do here to kind of think outside the box and again and then offer something to keep that roof in shape over time. There's a missed opportunity if you're not looking for a way to continue that service beyond just the initial transaction. Stop thinking transactionally and think about relationships, because that is something that isn't done much in this industry. That has a lot of value to any of your listeners here today. So I just wanted to add that yeah, so good. I'm glad you did. That's so good.
Ty Cobb Backer:So I just wanted to add that, yeah, so good. I'm glad you did that's so good. Reoccurring revenue I love it. I love it you just. That's definitely a good nugget because I'm where I need to be more intentional about that myself. So I know someone's going to get something out of that. Thank you for sharing that and I'm glad you remembered what the heck it was. So, yes, the gutter, okay. So at first, the copper Okay, you said that. They said you know, the manufacturer that's making the mesh said that you couldn't go with copper. How did you overcome that, like what was the workaround for that? Or how did you convince them that you could put gutter or, I'm sorry, copper in in the mesh?
Karen Sager:I just said just do me a favor, humor me and try, just make me a little, I'll pay for whatever it is you have to make. Let you know before you say no, just does it not go into the machine the same way. Is that the problem? They? They really didn't have an answer and they basically came back to me and said, okay, we'll try. And then you know, first time it had ever been done before, and they did it and we've never looked back. Then what we had to do was field testing. So it's a, it's a theory.
Karen Sager:Everybody knows that copper kills. You know all the roofing companies. But could put copper granules in their roof to kill moss, lichen and algae. Unfortunately, there's never enough of it in the roof by the time all that water flows down to the gutters. So I couldn't just rely on the fact of the roof was going to do enough to solve this problem at the gutters. And you know, think about it. We're installing in places like the Pacific Northwest. We're installing in super humid places like Atlanta, where they get lots of pollen, lots of pine trees and, just, you know, heavy humidity. Florida, texas, these places they either get gully washers or they get. They're just in a situation where you just never know what you're going to be up against.
Karen Sager:So here was an opportunity to take some products, stick it in the Pacific Northwest. We field tested it in Seattle and then we also field tested it in Atlanta. We left it there for years four years to prove it. Nobody trusted that it was going to do what it was going to do. Every time people would go out and look still working, still working the copper would clog. This would happen. None of the above.
Karen Sager:And eventually I said this is just, you know, we just got to stop testing and do so. We put it out there and it's uh, you know it's changed the lives of people in the organization. Um, it's changed the lives of companies that sell it. And that's just because it doesn't get callbacks from these things. You know, people, people, we're humans. We can make, we can have issues with an install and it we're. That. That's just natural. But everything we've promised that Copper can do, it has done and it's we're, we're, we're really proud of it, plain and simple, just really proud that that it's there and it's part of the product. And you know, we call it I call it my sleep at night guarantee, but I offer it to everybody else too, because if I don't get the callbacks, nobody gets the callbacks.
Ty Cobb Backer:No, I love it. I love it. You know what you know the theory is behind copper and why you know shingle manufacturer would put copper granules in it. For those that may not understand why it's such a big deal that you came up with this idea of putting copper you know in your gutter guard system.
Karen Sager:Well, copper is a natural antimicrobial. When it comes to things like moss, lichen and algae, which are the big buildups that we all deal with, it actually causes the spores of the whatever we're talking about moss, lichen or algae to burst. So this, these little things that you can't see, that are, that are just in the air, that you just never know where it's going to wind up being a problem for you, that you just never know where it's going to wind up being a problem for you. It just touch it. Once it hits water, the water and the copper together it just causes the spores to burst and then you don't get the buildup.
Karen Sager:Zinc is very. Zinc strips are very common, but zinc gives out pretty fast in when you think of the longevity of a roof. So zinc just doesn't do enough for long enough and copper just keeps on giving. Just think about all the old churches and stuff that you know, old government buildings that you see out there with copper. You know some of that copper is almost 100 years old in some places, so it just lasts and keep giving and giving and giving so it will ultimately sacrifice itself because there's, you know, somebody was thinking yeah, but copper, you know you're mixing metals.
Karen Sager:Yes, and it in is the same building where the company that renovated the Statue of Liberty worked from.
Karen Sager:They had a face of the Statue of Liberty up on the wall and now they're just across the street from me, so every now and then I can look in and see it. But they knew about copper. So when I was in the process of going through this product, designing this product, I went over to them saying what can you do? And they're like funny, you should say that because all of the new rivets that we're putting into the Statue of Liberty are stainless steel rivets. And they said what they found out was that it forms a coating on itself. So it actually it helps buffer. But secondly, when they went to the old rivets in the Statue of Liberty, when there was a piece of paper because the guy didn't strip the paper off before he put the rivet in those rivets were still lasting because there was a boundary between the steel and the copper. So they went with stainless steel and you know, the Statue of Liberty as it stands there today has a history, similar to the cloth in our gutter guards.
Ty Cobb Backer:Wow, amazing, that's an amazing story. So where are you guys located?
Karen Sager:We manufacture in Patterson, new Jersey, which is right. You know, bed, I wouldn't call it. It's a city, so it's. It's a city outside of New York city. It was this it was. It's about 20, maybe less than 20 miles from New York. I'm sure there are places that are tall enough. Certainly in the town that I live in, you can stand up on the high hills of the town and you can see the New York city skyline.
Ty Cobb Backer:Wow, I had no idea that you were that close to us. We're right in York, pa, so what? Maybe three, three and a half hours? Yeah, I had no idea that you guys were that close, amazing, okay, all right, well, cool. What now can? Can contractors buy directly, you know? Set up an account with MicroMesh, or do we have to two-step it?
Karen Sager:Um, no, set up an account with MicroMesh or do we have to two-step it? No, that's the best part. I mean, there's some places where we sell our gutter guards into distribution, but we don't think that it's worth doing that. You do pay shipping direct from us, but we will sell you gutter guards direct, so it's not. There's no markup from a distributor which can be quite costly.
Karen Sager:We look for dealers, so we're looking for somebody that kind of wants to make an investment in one of these products, and we try to keep our networks in a local geographic region which we use television DMAs to do. So you're in York, so I think it's York DMAs to do so. You're in York, so I think it's York, lancaster, and there's one other city in your, your DMA, that would be your market. You could go anywhere in that market and we're looking for a certain amount of footage.
Karen Sager:So we and then we do have our very our, our, our like, like. If somebody just wants to get in, get their feet wet and just start working with a company that has programs, then we um, we have a much more cost-effective gutter guard and we, you know, we allow people not to get in over their over their heads at first. We try to keep it simple be successful here, and if you're really successful here, let's move you up to one of our higher end products, because you can do a lot more with that and you've proven it.
Ty Cobb Backer:So, yeah, no, great, great. I love that story about the Statue of Liberty because, you know, growing up in the roofing space, we always knew not to mix copper, because we do a lot of copper curved bay roofs and stuff nothing real big, but there was quite a few of them in our area here that we used to install and probably still do. But we couldn't. We had to be careful with what. So we thought what type of fasteners that we were using as far as pop rivets and things like that, and it was always a big no-no not to mix like a regular roofing nail. You know, with with the apron flashing that went up against the house. We always had to use copper nails. So I guess, man, that's that's fascinating to know.
Ty Cobb Backer:But I love that story with the, with the statue of Liberty, and that your building is the building that they used to work out of. So what a small world and what great history that that must be. You know something that you were very prideful over. I would imagine being in that same building, that history that is there. So, before we, before we get off here, because I know you're very busy is there? Is there anything else that you know as far as you know your product goes, or a personal nugget that you would like to drop, or anything that you would like to mention before we get off here for our listeners.
Karen Sager:I would say, just from a product perspective, it's more than a product, it's a program. So we kind of listened and we've got resources that I think are a little out of the ordinary. How to sell a gutter guard with a roof? You know everybody. You know most people in your world are going to start with the roof and you're not. Many businesses are going to want to change their existing sales presentation. So we've got a whole training module that goes around just to explain how you can drop things in at different parts of your presentation so that you can turn that roof shingle sale into a roofing system sale.
Karen Sager:We have training on how to train your techs to cross-sell. We host clinics twice a week in sales and marketing that, um, in fact, people can just drop into one on a Wednesday afternoon that they don't even have to be a customer of ours yet, but just if they just want to talk sales, uh, this is, this is for a smaller company, say, that doesn't have all the time to train their sales guys but just wants that guy just always exposed to stuff. We, we do that all the time for people. Um, because that's the uh who, not the how, will help.
Ty Cobb Backer:Right, that's right, exactly. No, that's that's good to know. And in getting back to to education, you know and and training you know, not just for homeowners but for us contractors as well. We need that education. We don't know what we don't know, and I think that's great that you offer. You know that type of service.
Ty Cobb Backer:You know whether it be the module that people can watch or the in-house or via Zoom training that you guys perform, because without that, that's a part of the story, right Like that, when we get in there and add the value and why we think that you should have gutter guard, and us being educated, to educate the homeowner on why it is so important for them to even have gutter guards, let alone why go with the micro mesh product, because of the parts, the pieces, the warranties and all of those things that go into that. But before we get off here, there's somebody that had a question in there, I'm assuming after they become a distributor or a vendor for you guys, would they be able to stop up there and pick it up, or do you guys only ship?
Karen Sager:Oh, no, no, no, you can stop in New Jersey and pick it up, absolutely, we do it all the time.
Ty Cobb Backer:Okay, Okay. So I just thought I would. I saw that one. I can. I can barely see it, but I did see that one question in there Can you drive up, Can you drive up and pick up? So there, there you go. Gio, yes, you could swing in there and pick it up. So cool, Well, I think we're getting close to. We got to be close to an hour here, I would imagine. Yep, Okay, cool, we're about 52 minutes into this Again. Is there is there any anything else that you would like to leave us with today before we wrap this up?
Karen Sager:I just just for always try. You know, the cheapest leads are your referrals, right? So your goal is to create a raving fan and, and that can be done in many ways. And and the people that pay the most are probably your rave, your biggest raving fans. It's probably the people that pay the least that turn into your customer that you're like oh, why did I make the decision to do that? So keep that in mind, just as you choose the market that you choose the locations you plan to work in, and and I and you know how you, how you present the products that you sell.
Karen Sager:I would also say, in the current environment, we're seeing financing become something that if you can access it, you should, because it just people still need to do things, even when there's, I mean, they say may you live in interesting times? I think we have. I think we've got that box checked, but you still have to do things, even though times are interesting, right? So financing is a great tool to use to be able to do that and still be able to offer your customers the ability to get it done. I think that's key, and if you're bigger in uncertain times, that's an opportunity to take market share. Keep that in mind. Whereas a lot of companies pull back, there are opportunities. You know, somebody sees somebody's hesitation as their opportunity. So I would say that's always a good thing to keep in mind. As you, as you as, and you know just as the year folds out next year and the year after. Always keep that in the back of your head. And it's.
Karen Sager:It's an opportunity for somebody. Should it be you and the answer should be, yeah.
Ty Cobb Backer:Absolutely, absolutely. I couldn't agree more, especially on the financing piece, because again that just kind of goes into the fold of serving right, like if they can't afford it, but maybe they could afford $50 a month, you know, for for five years or 10 years. So being able to offer financing, I think is, is something again that we, as contractors in the roofing space, need a lot of education on as well, because people finance everything they finance cars, they finance their kitchen, kitchen, sometimes they shit might even finance their, their pets. You know what I mean.
Karen Sager:um so on amazon, you just go on amazon and they ask you do you want to finance this? I'm like I'm buying you know this tiny little thing. I do want to. I want to finance it.
Ty Cobb Backer:So absolutely no, I agree it people.
Karen Sager:people buy payments and if that payment helps them get to a better product or service, they see that as a win for them. They couldn't get there. They couldn't have gotten there any other way.
Ty Cobb Backer:I love that. You're absolutely right. No, I love that. I love that. What a great way to end this episode, because it's so positive and such a great nugget. So thank you so much, karen.
Karen Sager:Thank you, Ty.
Ty Cobb Backer:I really enjoyed this conversation. I admit I was a little nervous, not not hesitating, but nervous because usually it's my buddy and we're just kind of grab ass and on on the not not really, but it's just buddy and we're just kind of grab ass and on on the not not really, but um, it's just a you know, but this was, this was such a great conversation, so thank you so much.
Karen Sager:You're very kind, thank you for having me yeah, carving out.
Ty Cobb Backer:I'm very inspired by your story and I'm sure it's inspired somebody. I know people are getting something from this, so thank you for helping us serve our community and I'd like to thank everybody who tuned in today and I want to thank everybody who will catch us on the replay. If you haven't liked, loved, subscribed or if you know somebody that may get something out of this episode, please share it with them, because I know for me. I was taking notes the whole time you were talking, karen. So thank you for coming on the show and thank you for everybody for watching. Until next week, take care of each other and stay tuned, because we'll have another great episode and person coming on guest, coming on our show next week as well. So until then, thank you, guys, so much.
