Optimized Out of His Own Identity

Mike Weisman spent thirty years building other people’s brands.

 As the owner of his own advertising agency, he understood exactly how a performance becomes a product, and he built a career optimizing his clients external image for the world. Then his business disintegrated within six weeks, and he found himself standing alone in his own awards hall, throwing plastic trophies into a trash bin.

The moment those trophies hit the trash, so did the version of Mike that had built them. That version was never him, only a performance. That is imposter syndrome, the distance between who you are and the image you have been showing up as. Take the award away, and ask what is left?

I brought Mike onto the show because that question follows me too. He spent decades selling the promise that the right image solves everything, then discovered, at the cost of his business that the persona built for an audience and the person who can carry a business through a real collapse are not the same person.

This conversation moves through the shame that comes before the clarity, the false idols we worship, the ones he calls the five P’s, and the trust he had to find so he can rebuild from nothing. Mike now runs Higher Ground Life Consultancy, and what he teaches today is the opposite of everything his old industry trained him to sell.

Listen to the show for an honest conversation around imposter syndrome and how over optimization fuels you spending years performing an external image of you, that you know deep down is not you.

Timestamps

• 00:00–03:22 Cold open + over-optimization: culture’s performance trap
• 03:22–08:32 Collapse and awakening: business implodes, trophy-in-the-trash moment, “Who am I?”
• 08:32–14:08 Shame to stillness: fear, people-pleasing, 18 months of quiet, shift from self to service, image vs. identity
• 15:42–19:46 Liminal space: staying in the void, quiet confidence, the in-between ends in stages
• 21:04–24:36 Serendipity, no agendas: vulnerability as the gateway to trust
• 25:08–27:01 Trust over transaction: core metric, relational vs. transactional, ditch the “personal brand”
• 28:57–31:05 Growth arc: breakdown → breakthrough → breakout; don’t defer life—be a light; fingerprints and values
• 32:34–34:21 Redefining success: beyond money; where to find Mike; outro + CTA

ABOUT MIKE WEISMAN

Mike Weisman is the founder of Higher Ground Life Consultancy, working with leaders on identity, trust, and what he calls the true self beneath the performance. After thirty years running his own advertising agency, he lost the business, went through eighteen months of self-imposed silence, and now writes and speaks on reclaiming identity before the world defines it for you. Website: thehighergroundlife.com

Connect with MIKE WEISMAN

Website| Facebook| LinkedIn

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

And I realized that success, I lost who I was. I lost myself. And it wasn't until I lost everything that I found myself. My business of 30 years disintegrated around me within about a six-week period of time. And I was taking plastic idols and throwing them into a trash bin. I've spent 30 years of my life performing for others. And what I have to show for it is a trophy. A trophy.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

A plastic trophy.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

The question I was left with was who am I now? Without the clients, without the building, without the awards, without my position, all of that stuff lost.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

You are in for a tree today. Mike Wiseman with me, and he is the founder of Higher Ground Life Consultancy. And he talks about leadership, but before you roll your eyes and turn off and you say, Oh my God, I'm not a leadership consultant. Wait, there is more. So, Mike, my opening question to you today is what is over-optimization? And what is an over-optimization backlash?

SPEAKER_03 1:19

Oh, over-optimization, Viette, it's the crisis of our culture right now. We are so geared toward performance. Culture tells us to perform, they tell us what our identity looks like. They try to fill in the blanks. And in the process, they steal away our true identity of who we know we are, or maybe we don't, and we're searching an even more dangerous place for especially young people trying to traverse, you know, you know, their business career. We're so hyped up on performance and success metrics, and we talk about things in inhuman terms, and we suffer as a result of it. Because if you think about, I think about I look, I grew up before there was social media. So now social media is all comparison, it's all extraction and comparison, and you're constantly being fed what success is supposed to look like, and you never live up to it. Like none of us can live up to this persona that's been created, this perfectionist view of performance. And by the way, if we don't perform, then we are helpless, we are, we feel useless. And what is lost in that equation is kind of the value of human dignity and the value that you're that you're born with to not have to perform, but to simply be present. And I listen, I learned the hard way, Beate. I found that in the performance, in that journey.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

So let's talk about that here for a second. So what I'm hearing, what I'm hearing you say, Mike, is that we have now gotten almost machine-like. So tell us the story of when you stepped out of this high performance thing because something tells me that the only reason you can talk to us about it because you know better than anybody what it's like to be in it. Tell the story, Mike.

SPEAKER_03 3:22

Yeah, it's a painful journey, but I love telling it now because I feel as though I'm I'm living in my true self. And it took me, you know, I love the Mark Twain quotes, one of my favorites. You know, the two most important days in your life are the day that you're born and the day that you discover why. So I was born in 1953. I didn't discover why until 2019. And there was a big gap in between that. And fairly recent, yes. That gap, Beate, was me chasing the world's view of what success looked like and and performance. And I realized that I in gaining success, I lost who I was. I lost myself. And it wasn't until I lost everything that I found myself.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Take me through this because I want to give our audience really the example. So, what did this look like?

SPEAKER_03 4:15

Well, it was it was quite experiential. There wasn't a formula to it, Vietnam. It was it was just my my own experience. I I was coming out of a 40-year-plus career in marketing and communications. 30 of those years I own I owned my own company, my own advertising firm. I was on that rat, that mill, that mouse wheel. I can't remember what I don't even know what to call it, but I was so caught up in gaining success that I was allowing other people to define me. And and I realized now, I can only realize now because I had about an 18-month period of complete silence, and we can talk about that. I needed to quiet my brain and my heart down and escape for a while. I was chasing what I'm calling false idols. Okay. I don't know if you've heard of, you know, these I call them the five P's, you know, power and position and prestige and prosperity. And and I was I was putting my trust in the wrong places. And my awakening came. I can still see it. My business of 30 years disintegrated around me within about a six-week period of time. And I can remember it vividly, Viette. My so my moment, my pain point was I I can still see it. I was standing in the hallway of our awards hall, because you know, every agency, there's your measure of success. How many awards did you win? And you wear them like a badge of honor, yes, of honor. And the I was having to extricate myself from a building that I'd lost, a business that I had lost, and I was standing by myself in the awards hall, and I was taking plastic idols and throwing them into a trash bin.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

And I was staring at them, going, I've spent 30 years of my life performing for others, and what I have to show for it is a trophy.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

A trophy a plastic trophy.

SPEAKER_03 6:29

A plastic trophy for a point of of sale sticker that I did in 1982. It's like it was so it was such a cathartic, weird experience for me. And that kind of set me on a journey, and and I have this 18-month bubble that I talk about because what happened to me, Beate, in the performance and in losing myself is that it wasn't a question of well, what do I do now? The question I was left with was, who am I now? Without the clients, without the building, without the awards, without my position, all of that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

I I gotta go here a little bit more because do you think that we are really seeing a lot more of this right now? Yes. Because I'm I'm right there with you. You know, so I want to give the audience just a little bit of a backstory. So Mike and I, you know, we connected via LinkedIn. So I'm doing an outreach campaign, and we're really doing uh the very best that we can to not spam and to keep it personal and to have these conversations that we having without any expectation. And when Mike and I started talking, I realized that we were really very much aligned about this space that I'm in right now that I'm exploring, which we'll get to in a minute, uh that I have now since found out is called luminality, the space in between spaces. But what I want to find out, because I do think a lot of people can relate to that. So now something happened, a dramatic or maybe not even a dramatic moment, but boom, it's gone. In that moment, when you have this realization, this is what I did it for. What was the emotion? Were you angry? Were you disappointed? Were you disenfranchised? Take us to this moment of the WTF, really, if you want to know. It's like, what the heck did I do all of this for? And at what cost?

SPEAKER_03 8:32

That's where I went. It was disappointment in myself. I didn't, you know, there are very few moments, I think, in our lives, Beate, when we really have to face ourselves raw, naked, stripped down, not even the persona of your closest friends or your spouse or your kids. You know, we all we they all have that defensive mechanism that they put up around you when you're drowning. But you know it's not true. Even that persona, it's stripped away. So for me, it was I was ashamed. I felt, I realized how much of a people pleaser I had turned into, looking for affirmation from so many wrong places. But I felt like I'd let myself down and I'd let so many other people down that counted on me because I wasn't an employee. I was supposed to be the visionary and the leader and the spiritual leader, even of my work. And I felt like I'd let so many people down, but it was really shame and fear. It was a lot of fear of wait, wait a minute. Like, like I said, it wasn't because we can all manufacture next steps, right? We can all go, what's my action plan? Action items, how am I gonna rebound out of this? Yes, and and what's the next level of success that I'm going to strive for? Am I gonna fall right back into that same trap? I can remember my dear wife saying to me, Are you gonna are you gonna be like building another one of these things? Oh, and she's the one that really hit me hard by saying, You've missed a lot of your life by and and I've followed you and I've trusted you, and I still believe in you, but you paid a huge price for this. So for me, it was as a as a man, I'm wired to be the provider and the protector. And for so many years, I thought providing was just you know bringing home that big fat check and the big bonus. And I realized that was I was so far from from reality. And now it was okay, how do I provide? Who am I? What do I who's gonna trust me now? I've lost my business. How can I talk to people about trust? And the voices start happening. You're not qualified to move forward, you have really nothing to offer anybody because you're a failure. And so now the the positive thing about it is I I I I tell my friends, Vietnam, that it was almost like God was having to pry my dead vice grip fingers one by one off of this thing that I had built because I lost sight of who I was building for. And we're so conscious of building for self because self is celebrated in a very demonic way these days. It's so debilitating and so isolating. I've talked to so many leaders who are sitting at a top of what other people would look like as a very successful space, and they're so lonely. And they don't sleep. They're so isolated because they've spent time building their careers, but not building relationships, and they've lost their presence in the performance, and that's where I was sitting. Yeah, I retired from that, and I it took me, I had to go into complete, felt like a monk. I had to go into complete hibernation, I had to leave California because I lost my financial wherewithal as well. I'd lived there for many years. So I felt like I was like leaving town with my tail between my legs, and I couldn't look anybody in the face. And I sat in my I came from this thriving, vibrant, energizing environment, sitting into my home office by myself, looking at the four walls every day, going, now what? And I had to get very quiet. And it took losing all of that to quiet me down enough to just pause and be still and and and begin to re-evaluate. And and I I wasn't necessarily looking for, I wasn't as a victim hiding in that place of what well, look what I've lost, look what I've lost. What I started looking for are what I describe as like markers, markers of this journey that I'd been on. And it was in that quiet space that I realized that my purpose was being forged out of all of that. There was no, there it wasn't a failure. Yes, there were mistakes, but not failures, because I kept trying. But it took a reorientation to say, from this point forward, you are not building for yourself, Michael. You're building for others, you're building for me, you're building for the purpose that you were intended. I have a fingerprint on you. And it's unique from anybody else's. And it just, this is what it took me to get your attention.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

You know, there's a bunch of things that come to mind. So, number one, I can certainly relate to this question, who am I without all of this? Right? We create this construct. Some people call it the ego, personal brand, whatever you want to call it.

SPEAKER_03 14:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

Uh, to me, and when we spoke, it was right after I had gotten back from Germany, and I had realized that when I was visiting my mother, that who is now 91 years old, that her entire purpose in life has been to keep up this appearance of how other people see her. And she dresses well, she always wears a hat. She's in a tiny little town, she's known as the lady with the hat, and she loves the attention. And the this is where she gets her energy from because she cannot manage relationships uh with her kids, you know, she's she's my abuser, she has no really connection or contact with her grandchildren, and so she sits in her ivory tower. But if the doctor spends an extra five minutes with her, that to her is the confirmation that she's an amazing person, because normally you wouldn't be spending this much time with anybody, but because she's so special and amazing. Right. They would. And when you look at it at someone else, you go, Oh, it is so obvious. Right. Of course. And then I'm sitting in the plane and I'm going back, Mike, and I'm thinking, oh my God, I'm doing the same thing. I'm just better at it than she is, because I can use all these tools that are available to me on how I present it on LinkedIn, how I present it on my social media. She sold the business to Bill Gates. So, my question to you now is Yeah, when this image of yourself fell apart and you had to be really quiet, and the message came through. Tell me that this space of not knowing will end. I'm asking this very selfishly for myself here, because I feel that myself and many, many people I know are in this luminality space where something has clearly ended, but nothing's happening.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Help us, sister outlick.

SPEAKER_03 16:16

Well, you know, uh, Biette, what what I would say to your initial comment is that it took me all these years to figure out, and I think many of us do this. I we create this shroud. It's almost like our blanky. You know, it's a it's a safe space for us. We give authority to others to create an image for us that's very safe and comforting. But what it's hiding is that we don't want to face the real us. That's too hard to really go into that space and go, okay, I'm really gonna just sit with myself and ask these types of jarring questions about what have I been doing this for? Am I so filled with ego and pride that I'm not gonna admit this stuff? Because that's where the freedom comes from. So my freedom came in finally admitting my mistakes, not allowing anybody to sugar sugarcoat that for me, including myself, because that's our self-preservation. We don't want to see ourselves in any other light. But what I can tell you is that the message that I received clearly was that there was no other journey that was going to bring me to find myself. And I it that was all necessary in terms of preparation.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

But how did you manage to stay there for so long? I mean, 80 months, it's a year and a half of not knowing. I mean, there must have been many moments where you said, screw this, I'm done.

SPEAKER_03 17:46

I've been I had many moments. We talked about this when we first got together. We all have different journeys. I'm wired to believe that we're kind of all spiritual beings, you know, living in these bodies. That's my belief. And so I always have felt that there was something bigger. It but it would bubble up every now and then during my career. I look back and I realized that what inspired me about the people that I leaned into were people who were just being themselves. They weren't manufacturing anything around them, they weren't buying into culture, telling them who they needed to be. They were just there was something very calm and solid about them that I was attracted to. And I think where you you're what I'm describing is that if you can find peace within yourself, that's alluring right now. That's an alluring quality. And it's not cockiness, it's not overconfidence, it's just a quiet confidence that there is a purpose for you. And so here's the deal. I mean, uh a complete disclosure, I'm not out of this thing yet, Iate. But here's what I'm finding in serving others other rather than myself and building for something bigger than my own adulation, that there's a transformative process that's happening in me, and I'm feeling more and more real, and I'm feeling I'm and I'm seeing the response that I'm receiving. Uh look, Beate, I would have thought, I I I don't know how I'm doing this with you because I've never been this honest or open outside of my family. But it's almost a it's a process that I've needed to go through because I am no longer in the business of disqualifying my myself, and nobody listening or watching should ever be in a place of disqualifying themselves. How powerful is that from what the future holds. And so that space in between, it does end, right? It ends in levels and in stages. I don't think it's ever come our story's never complete, Beate, because what I had to realize that the bigger story is really not about me. I'm I'm a part player, I'm a character actor in a bigger story. My hope and my desire and my passion right now is to allow myself to be exposed in that way, to be raw, and to let people know that there is something on the other side of this, and that thing on the other side of it is the real you, what you were born for, what you were meant for. And so that's my life now. But what's yeah, what's happening is what's transforming inside of you? What are you believing about yourself that's more true than it was the day before? And you hang on those markers, and those markers become the journey that you can you can go back and say, Oh, no, wait a minute, you know, that that conversation I had with the Ate last week, wow, that anchored me. That gave me that gave me encouragement, that gave me purpose because I was having a real exchange with somebody else, right? Even though it was virtual, I feel like I could just reach out and give you a big hug.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Yeah, you know, and and that really was the conversation that I was reaching out via LinkedIn. You knew exactly why you're reaching out via LinkedIn, right? Yeah. But there was something there, and we both agreed to get on a phone call. We had no idea where this was gonna go. And then when I was talking to you, I'm like, you need to be in my podcast. I'm pretty sure you didn't expect that, or that was not the plan of it. No, it wasn't my plan. But when it emerged very naturally out of this, out of this conversation. And that's why I wanted to bring this type of conversation to my audience, is to say, look, when both people are operating from this perspective of no hidden agenda, I think that the art of what we are at right now, and this is sort of the business aspect of things that I want to start wrapping this up with, is that when you have this kind of honesty. And you have allow people to come on this journey with you, what happens is that you bring more people in that are on that same frequency. So t tell us that since you've been sort of in this emergence, let's call it the emergence of Mike. Yeah, I love that word.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

What has been changing for you? I'll tell you what exactly what it is. And it's so powerful, and it's so it just fills me. And this is what okay, we you and I talked about this word authenticity, which we need to take and throw out of the just get rid of it because that's a manufactured word. But what struck me about you on LinkedIn is something we talked about before. You were you were vulnerable. You were sharing a story about your mom. You weren't saying, hey, I'm looking for business on LinkedIn. I'm so sick of all of that. And it's the formulas and AI scripts it for us. You showed a vulnerability to me that is so rare. And yet I know this because of the model I've built. Without vulnerability, you cannot go into the deeper waters of trust building and relationship building and get anything meaningful and purposeful out of it. You'll just be transactional in nature the rest of your life. You'll have a smattering of casual friends. You won't go deep because you're afraid to go deep. And the reason most of us are afraid to go deep is because we don't want to have anybody see the real us. So I was attracted to that story. And you know what's attractive about it? It's human, it's real. Quit manufacturing who you are, quit building your personal brand or having your handlers build your personal. Can you just be vulnerable and be yourself in that? In me now being vulnerable, being comfortable to say, I'm not disqualified. I can actually help somebody avoid these cliffs before they run into them headlong because I've been there. I know what the pain feels like, but I know what the joy feels like when you connect with one other person.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

I think this is the activation that I have heard so many times now, and the word that I've using, I've I've been using, I think that many of us have been activated, and the activation means you have to go through the shit yourself. Yes. And then when you're like barely able to get up, then you get the message like, well, we had to show you how bad it is so you can help others now. Because now we are in this transformative moment in in history where the you know government systems are falling apart, our uh our every every structure is falling apart. So talk to me how that now, though, changes the leadership work, because leadership's always been about productivity, efficiency, uh, teamwork, makes the dream work, but none of this can work under under this. So tell us how is this shaping the work?

SPEAKER_03 25:08

So here's how it shapes my work. I what I tell people that enter into any relationship with me is that these are the things that you'll never learn in business school. The most solid, measurable skill is trust. And I walk people through building trust and building relationships, the trust that you elicit from others by needing them, by pouring into them. We're living in such a soundbite world, that's where most organizations and individuals stumble, is that we're afraid of the deeper water, and it's easier to have a transaction with someone than to invest in them.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

This is a purposeful, interesting, deliberate act. So you say it's easier to be transactional versus building a relationship. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 26:05

That's that doesn't take work. Hell. It doesn't take work to have you know 5,000 followers. I'm sorry. What do they mean to you? Do you know any of them individually? Have you taken time? That's the issue that we're dealing with, Beate, is that we're so self-focused that we can't get out of ourselves. We can't we can't have a conversation. If I'm not getting something out of it from you, why am I bothering? I need to get on to the next transaction. And what happens is that I'm I'm miserable, I lose purpose, I lose joy and meaning because the deeper waters of relationship building. So forget your brand. That's brand lives downstream from relationships. Brands live in marketing departments, not in real life. So your personal brand, don't manufacture it, be it. Allow yourself, give yourself grace, give yourself forgiveness, have that same mindset with others. You know, you're not perfect walking into any relationship. So God forbid you'd throw stones at somebody else or prejudge them. Reach out to them. We've lost this art of just being human and just being ourselves and not having to overperform to get affirmation. I don't feel like I have to perform with you, Piety. And thank you for that. Because but here's my point: you've allowed space for that. There's something going on in you, even in your searching process, even in the fact that you haven't arrived at the other side of whatever you're wrestling with right now. If you're wrestling with it, do it as yourself, be honest and open and raw about it. And that transformation happens. It happens in individuals, and I see it. And it also can happen in organizations, right? You just you shift the metrics and you put more importance in building the relationships around you and being who you are when you show up. That's your brand. So here's my here's my halo, here's my glowing brand. Everybody can look at and go, wait a minute, isn't that the guy that just said he lost his business and he lost himself? And it's like, no, my life isn't over. It's just starting.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

No, and I I think you you touched on many, many things. And the thought process really here is that when the construct falls apart, there has to be, by the nature of a false construct, a period of destruction and cleaning and coming to Jesus or coming to yourself kind of moment. And then afterward has to be naturally the void. You know, I call it the breakdown, the breakthrough, and then the breakout. But you cannot have the breakout without the breakthrough, and you cannot have the breakthrough without the breakdown. So when you're in this breakthrough, it really feels that you made a mistake because you lost it, you made really bad mis mistakes and decisions. And the trust, it almost sounds to me the trust you were talking about is the trust in myself, that I did not waste my time, that I did not waste my life, that I did not waste my opportunities, that everything that I had to do up to this moment was designed to get me to this moment. This is the richest moment of all of it.

SPEAKER_03 29:39

It is, and and we, and too many of us defer that, right? My faith context is Christianity and and even Christians, they're waiting for heaven. It's like, what are you waiting for? How about creating a little bit of that right here? Right now, because what you're you're deferring, you're you're what you're you're performing, you're looking for the success at the end of the rainbow, and someday I'm gonna end up there. Well, what are you doing now? What are you doing now? Can you be a light to other people?

SPEAKER_01 30:10

It's kind of hard work to allow yourself to emerge and beautiful at the same time.

SPEAKER_03 30:18

It is, it's a beautiful journey, and so many of us miss it. I don't believe we were created to be isolated. And so the the journey, the process is the journey, the journey is the process, and there's so much light around it every day. We just we tend to to tune out to it because we're just too consumed and too um bombarded with noise. And so I would just say just find ways to just quiet yourself down. And I would also say Beate that the transformation occurs in in the giving of yourself to somebody else. That's where the transformation occurs. Yeah. And it's not so it's not in what I can get, but it's like, what can I give? What can I offer? And I think you're you're you're you're you're dead on. It's like you you offer yourself, you just offer yourself, you don't puff it up, you don't pretty it up, you know, you just offer yourself. And I I truly believe that each one of us that's the beauty of these of relationships and the journey of relationships, is that no two of us are alike, right? My um uh uh Elvis Presley, that great theologian, that great thinker, had one of the greatest quotes ever. He said, Do you know that your values are like fingerprints and nobody's are the same, and you leave them on every one that you touch. How beautiful is that!

SPEAKER_01 31:51

And what a great thing.

SPEAKER_03 31:52

So it's like just go just touch somebody with your unique fingerprint. That's how you build a relationship. Just show up honestly. I am more joyful than I've ever been, but I had to go through that, and to your point, each one of us has that moment to face. Each one of us is going to be taken to some level of pain because that's where growth comes from. Yeah, right? A seed goes into the ground and it can't grow without.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

There's many, many people I've spoken to on the show that have gone through this part and come out on the other side that that do talk about how much more financially rewarding it is. It's just that uh we're not here yet.

SPEAKER_03 32:34

And well, and I'm I'm not measuring my success by financial performance anymore.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Yes. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

All right, Mike. So if somebody wants to think about getting in touch with you, connecting, hearing what you have to say, reading what you write, or working with you, where would we send them?

SPEAKER_03 32:49

Um, just send them to the uh the higher groundlife.com. It's you know, I've I've got a book published there. I have a new book coming out. I'm trying to reach out to younger people walking into leadership and and and the subtitle, uh the working subtitle of the book is Um Reclaiming Your True Identity Before the World Tells You Who You Need to Be.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

Oh, wow. Before it's being taken away from you, own it.

SPEAKER_03 33:13

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So just reach out to me there. Um, and uh I'm just having a great time right now. And I'm so thankful, by the way, that you that we I who knows how we met. Well, I know how we met. It was we were appointed to meet for a reason, and I'm hoping that somebody's blessed by the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Mike, thank you so much for being on the show. You've been amazing and truthful and vulnerable all in once. Um thank you for sharing your message so honestly.

SPEAKER_03 33:43

Thank you for making it so comfortable to share. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 33:46

And that is it for us for today. Thank you so much for listening to or watching this episode of the Business Growth Architect Joe Founders of the Future. We are here for you. We thank you for your time. We thank you for showing up. We thank you for listening all the way to the end. And if this interview resonates with you, and please leave it in the comments or share it with someone else that needs to hear what we have said today. And as always, we're immensely grateful and we value and appreciate you and your time. Thank you so much, and until next time, and goodbye. That's it for this episode of the Business Growth Architect Show, Founders of the Future. If you're done playing small and ready to build the future on your terms, subscribe, share, and help us reach more trailblazers like you. And if you're serious about creating, growing, and scaling a business that's aligned with who you are, schedule your uncovery session at uncoverysession.com. Lead with vision. Move with purpose. Create your future.