It's Foal Time! The story of when not to panic

Marissa Chapa, herd manager for Oklahoma State University, and Paige Linne,  Senior Lecturer for Texas A&M, share how they guide nervous students through the foaling process. From tips on how you know foaling is close, to how to stay relaxed, these instructors have a unique take on how to approach foaling season.

Transcript

Kris Hiney: welcome to extension horses, tack box talk series horse stories with a purpose. I'm your host, Dr. Kris Hiney, with Oklahoma State University. And today we're gonna be talking about foaling because it is the season for the little ones to start arriving, and with that, probably a lot of trepidation from owners, especially first time mare owners. And this can be a pretty nerve, wracking and intense experience.

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Kris Hiney: So I thought, who better than to talk people through being nervous about foaling? Then 2 instructors at

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Kris Hiney: and I would say our leading institutions? I may be a little biased. So we have Paige Lynn from Texas, A. And M. University. I'm an alum of Tex A. And M. So I get to give a shout out to the Aggie, so welcome, Paige!

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Linne, Paige K: Thank you, and I'll I'll say, whoop! As well. There you go! And Paige is a senior lecturer. They're in the Animal Science Department teaches a ton of equine classes, and is also the ranch horse team coach as well.

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Kris Hiney: And so her mirror counterpart to that is Marissa Chappa here at the Oklahoma State University, where she serves as our herd manager teaches classes and is also the ranch horse team coach. So welcome, Marissa.

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Marissa's iPhone: Hello! Glad to join today. So you guys are like, identical, really

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Kris Hiney: pretty much so little catching up on our

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Kris Hiney: related duties there. Fantastic. So both of you again. I thought this would be good. Teach college students kinda how to foal out mares, etc. So we're gonna kind of go through the what do you look for and things like that? But I think you guys have a maybe a great insight into how to assure people

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Kris Hiney: what's going on is normal. So we're gonna just do this like a class, you guys and could go back and forth. What do you tell your kids like, what are they looking for to know their marws are about to fall.

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Linne, Paige K: I'll start, Marissa, if you don't mind. I actually like to back it up a little bit. And most people will say, Okay, start watching 3 weeks to a month out from your mawer's Efd, so estimated, foaling date. And that's of course, the date around which you expect her to go, and she has her own plans and no calendar but I like for our students to understand what is normal in their mare, so that they can then

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Linne, Paige K: identify correctly what is abnormal. A good example of that, even just practically, when we put them on foal watch for the first time.

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Linne, Paige K: and they're excited. They think they're gonna have a baby that night. They're watching the video monitors and they write in the notes. Mare is restless. Well, she might just be restless because she's alone for the first time in a while. So I think, identifying properly what is normal behavior, normal development for a broodmare in late gestation is where I like to start.

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Kris Hiney: Yeah, yeah, that's actually a good note, because a lot of times people do like sequester the brood mare away. And then she's like, Hey, where are my friends? That's no fun. Right? Of course she's gonna be a little unhappy.

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Marissa's iPhone: Yeah, I'm really the same as Paige, especially our mares are managed outside 24 7. So I have some mares that obviously just don't really enjoy being brought in the falling stall and spending time inside. They would rather be outside with their girlfriends. So I'm really the same in that aspect. I have some mares that

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Marissa's iPhone: could be at the exact same way the whole time. They're on foal watch whether they're gonna be going into labor or not. And I have other mares that consistently every year

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Marissa's iPhone: will actually show 0 signs of stage one of you know, labor and literally go from 0 to 100 in 10 min. So they all have, like their own individual behaviors, that are true to themselves every year. Regardless. And you know they all match the timeline of

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Marissa's iPhone: how close they actually are depending on the mare, if that makes sense. So I really preach to the choir on that as well that all of our mares are all really different, but they all stay true to themselves, and kind of how they act and handle those situations.

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Marissa's iPhone: the closer they get to their due dates or baby arriving. So

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Kris Hiney: no, I know. And maybe you guys could just speak about this pretty briefly. So if both institutions they bring the mares in to watch them. And a a lot of this is is training students, right? You know, the more valuable the horse. Probably the more people that are staring at it. Giving birth.

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Kris Hiney: So you know, what if you do foal them outside like? Is that the end of the world? Have you guys had that happen

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Linne, Paige K: Thursday last week? We miss it, too.

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Marissa's iPhone: Yeah, we definitely miss some sometimes. But you know, when we

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Marissa's iPhone: for us we always know that's a risk factor. So we rotate our mares pasture wise. So if they do have a chance that they that we might miss them, that the likelihood of them smalling fully out in a smaller pasture with less

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Marissa's iPhone: participants in their community to be maybe an annoyance or things like that would be like lower risk especially. I have, like one mare that is, a baby stealer, and so she hasn't had her own child yet. She will beat up whatever mare has a child and take her child. So you know I can't risk a mare foaling in pasture with

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Marissa's iPhone: my other mares for that reason. So yeah, we rotate and kind of move, play musical chairs into what I call we call our foal trap pasture.

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Marissa's iPhone: which is a small turnout, where we put the mares where we can keep on item during the daytime, or they're close by, so if they do foal in pasture, we can easily bring them into our facility, to monitor them and take care of them and things. So

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Linne, Paige K: so I assume that's the same thing for you to Paige that even the little mares that sneak one past you. Yes, yes, we, for the sake of teaching. We try to catch them foaling and and use them for for that purpose, but I mean it happens every now and then, and last week I doubled my count of mares that we've missed, but both those babies are totally fine. They fold out in the pasture with other broodmares who were

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Linne, Paige K: along the same timeline of gestation and they're totally happy. Everything is fine, so I mean, you gotta think before we ever intervene, this humans. And like you said, I think that

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Linne, Paige K: the example of the more expensive, or I would say, even the more emotionally invested we are, more likely we are to intervene. But they've been doing it just fine without us for a long time. Yeah, 100%. And I know we'll probably come back to to this later about when to intervene. Cause I know, college students like to be heroic. But let's go back to. Okay. So when do we decide like

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Kris Hiney: we're getting closer, or we want to put her in the building, or, you know, stay up all night. How do we know when? That's because we can't stay up all night forever, although I think college students just do that anyhow. So

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Linne, Paige K: one of the big things. So we have our students do checks at certain time points as we approach that that Efd and as we get closer the time points will get closer and closer together as well.

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Linne, Paige K: We look at the Mare externally. So just physically. How is she developing? One of the bigger things is? How quickly does she develop an udder or a bag? So is she producing milk yet? And then, as she gets closer, the sponginess around her tail head, how easily can you grab her tail away from her? And how long is her vulva? Externally, those are some signs that she's approaching

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Linne, Paige K: parturition. And then we actually do a lot of milk testing. So both, can you grab a little bit of milk off of that mare? What color is it as it gets closer to foaling, it will go from white, clear fluid to

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Linne, Paige K: thicker, sometimes white or yellow, sticky fluid, that kind of leaves, some crystallized sugar on your hand, too, so that would tell you it's looking more like milk. Common sense is getting closer to foaling and then we actually use some chemical strip tests that we call to test the characteristics of that milk. So mostly the pH, which Marissa, I'd be curious to hear.

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Marissa's iPhone:  and also yes, the milk test. So we start checking for milk as soon as we notice bag development. And you know that varies for every mare and then, as soon as you know, I don't get too crazy on the milk test on, because, you know, some mares might develop a bag 6 weeks, 8 weeks before, which again, is one of those slippery slopes which could be a red flag or green flag, timeline

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Marissa's iPhone: but anyways, usually about a month out. If from the due date. If that mare is producing consistent milk will start testing it daily. But yeah, I have 2 different tests. We do. One is called the Mother Nature's test, and it measures pH and calcium in combination. But it's like color strip test, basically. That one is honestly been pretty accurate for us. And

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Marissa's iPhone: I've only have one mare that will flow out and not be in the complete foaling range. Results category. And then there's 2 basically brackets of foaling name range.

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Marissa's iPhone: If they are in the 100% of the foal bracket, they usually fall within 12 or 24 h of hitting that

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Marissa's iPhone: depending on what time of day you actually end up milking them.

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Marissa's iPhone: And then the basic second tier fulling range. They can hang on a little longer. I would say most of the time. If they're in the second tier. They could go within, you know, a week, but they usually bump up into the foal tier. You know, it's usually a gradual. It depends on the mare again, and how early we actually start milking them, and how much we actually track. Sometimes we just get lucky. We're like, Oh, we forgot this, Mare. We need to pull milk in, or now and then. You're like Bam. We're all the way already like one day a foal watch.

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Marissa's iPhone: The mare’s earlier in the season probably, are a little more tedious on how much of the timeline we actually track, and then we can heat of things, and sometimes our timeline subsidy cracks a little bit. But anyways, we also do a water hardness test. That literally is, people use for like pools and stuff.

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Marissa's iPhone: Which if I  remember right is calcium and magnesium magnesium? Yeah. So we use both of those.

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Marissa's iPhone: they kind of usually They correlate in their trends. But

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Marissa's iPhone: the mother nature one is really easy. It's the same thing as water harndess. You just dilute. Use deionized  water as the ratio of milk, and dip the

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Marissa's iPhone: strip in there. Wait a minute, and that's it. So yeah, we. And that's how we determine based on those milk results and physiological signs. If we're going to bring the mare in overnight or not.

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Kris Hiney: Yeah. And I know, like, there's a bunch of different systems out there. But I think you know, realistically, a lot of universities. We want the students to to do things. It's a better way to like, okay, we're collecting data on them. Then some of the other electronic devices and things like that. They're not as accessible. In academia.

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Kris Hiney: Okay, so we're gonna play student here again. So they get their magic number like yay, it's within 24 h. Now, what do they have to look for?

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Linne, Paige K: The first thing we do when we bring a mare up? Is we clean her? Get her ready, especially like Marissa. Ours live outside all the time, so they're probably a little dirty.

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Linne, Paige K: We get her ready cleaned up, and we put her in the foaling stall. And then we have our kiddos sit on watch from 7 Pm. To 7 Am. And that'll shift with daylight savings time, or whether that kind of thing. We use video cameras. So our students are sitting in a separate room at our facility, watching the cameras. For behavioral signs, and everyone will tell you

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Linne, Paige K: the general description of stage one looks like mild colic, which is

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Linne, Paige K: incredibly useless. If you are excitable college students that are looking for a baby so that can look like anything like Marissa said, there's a lot of individual mare differences, too.

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Kris Hiney: Yeah, that's pretty fun. Because and I don't know if people have have gone through it before, but they can also kind of come and go or almost gonna have like that. Oh, I feel uncomfortable, just like humans can. Right? And so then they're like, Nope, I'm good.

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Marissa's iPhone: Yeah. And they can basically, you know, stage one of parturitions. Just consider those external behavior signs based on what's starting to shift and change internally in utero and, like, you know, some mares might show behavioral signs for 4 h, or like the whole night, and still not foal out for another day.

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Marissa's iPhone: and then you have other ones that will show, maybe get really sweaty and hot. colicky looking for 20 min, and then there's a baby, or I have mares that literally show 0 like they don't sweat, they don't bite their sides, they don't pace. They literally are sitting in the corner eating, hay?

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Marissa's iPhone: And then they'll walk over.

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Marissa's iPhone: lay down, have the baby in 15 min, and get up and eat a snack again, and act like nothing, you know

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Marissa's iPhone: well, into an advance that they're they're going to go into labor

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Marissa's iPhone: before we show those signs. But they'll stop eating and drinking for a while. But again, that individualistic kind of thing, but we're the on the same as paige in terms of our students. Hang out in a separate room. They're just we do 7 Pm. 7 am. 3 h shift. So there's 2 students per shift.

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Marissa's iPhone: And they rotate throughout the night. So it's not the same kids having to be here for 12 h.

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Kris Hiney: Now, in your experience, I've always found, or we at least would have, some mares that were pretty savvy that they're like, Oh, college students leave at 7.

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Kris Hiney: Now the time is come for to make the baby.

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Linne, Paige K: Yes, I made the mistake last year when I started our following classes said, 95% of the time they go at night. And then last year, I think we had 28 Efds. So 28 mares to foal, and 6 of them went during the daytime. So they'll make liars of you more than anything, I think.

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Kris Hiney: Yeah, yeah, well, and I think that's important, like, when you were talking about why they use video other than just standing there staring at them. They really do want to be left alone. And so the girls can be savvy like. Okay. Now, the Barn is finally quiet, we got rid of the college students.

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Marissa's iPhone: Yeah, when you're staring at them depending on how my personal intuition and those other factors we talked about earlier. Like, I know the mares the best, because I see them every year. The kids, you know, this is their first experience with those mares

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Marissa's iPhone: depending on the case. Some of them I'll just leave in jail during the daytime in the foaling stall. So as well. So we eliminate them. Yeah, going to be outside for turnout during the day and falling out.

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Marissa's iPhone: But again, I don't do that unless I'm really confident that we're really that close

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Marissa's iPhone: the ones that I know are like close, but maybe we're still got a little bit of time. Then they get it go outside during the day, but when we get really really close I pretty much just put them in a lockdown. So we don't ruin the experience of when it's seen all the beautiful things. So the teaching

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Marissa's iPhone: like, if it's just me. And they were outside foaling out during the day, I someone would probably see them. We'd go catch and make sure things good. And it's not really concerned from that standpoint, but it defeats the the moment of teaching and experience. If that happens all the time. So that's true.

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Marissa's iPhone: Okay.

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Marissa's iPhone: I do also tell my students, like.

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Marissa's iPhone: you know, for us, we have a foaling stall. But if you don't have anyone there to watch them. Then it's really kind of more dangerous for the mare in the foaling stall to be full and out, install unattended, even though that stalls really large space cause. I still have mares that go to full out, and they sit on their right on the wall.

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Marissa's iPhone: And you know, if they were to actually push those babies out. They're gonna slam to the wall, and baby might like break a leg or a neck or something bad. The mares normally get up and readjust themselves. So those are the times you have to intervene. Sorry, Mom. You're laying down. I know you're starting to push, but like we can't push a baby into a wall. So in those instances, and no one's around to watch during the day, then Mom was still going outside for safety purposes.

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Linne, Paige K: I think, too like

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Linne, Paige K: for the sake of the mamas, like we try to. If ours are on watch for multiple days, we'll at least get them out. Take them for what we've coined. Hot girl walk. So we get out of the foaling stall. We just take a lap, maybe hand graze. I think that helps with her sanity, being in baby jail, and I found our mares that maybe start to get some edema on their udder or their lower belly that helps with that, too. So if we're not in a position where we have like a catch pen to turn them out.

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we'll do a little hot girl walk. And that helps everybody stay a little bit. Calmer and and still contained

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Kris Hiney:  okay, so you guys were kinda talking about stage one. And I know you're used to kind of being, you know, academia stage one stage 2 stage 3. We could all run through that. But okay, so stage one for everybody. That's when yeah, it's uterine contractions in the foal is getting adjusted to be in presentation position. So how about just tell us, real, quick, what is the correct presentation position?

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Linne, Paige K: This is where I would have all my students do this, which of course can't see this this podcast but a beautiful swan dive into the world.

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Marissa's iPhone: Yeah. Oh, superman, the superman position.

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Linne, Paige K: Yeah. So when, like, when I get a phone call, that water has broken, which hopefully, water has actually broken. And the student, the one of the first things I ask them is, Kay, what color do you see? And the answer should be that bubble gum, pink, white color. And then I asked, You see any feet? So you should see 2 front feet, followed shortly after by a nose. So that would be correct position.

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Marissa's iPhone: So let's kinda

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Kris Hiney: again. Let's talk through how this should go and what you would tell a student that cause again, they're gonna tend to panic a little bit sooner than later. So how do you say everything is going okay? And this is what normal is

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Marissa's iPhone: you know, stage one obviously can vary in length and time. And so

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Marissa's iPhone: really we don't

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Marissa's iPhone: get I I don't express the urgency of our timeline in measuring

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Marissa's iPhone: What's, you know? An appropriate amount of time or a bad amount of time, until yeah, we see the water break or the amnion appear. They don't always catch the water breaking. It's it happens pretty quickly. If you're not sitting there watching it or hear it, then you may or may not know

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Marissa's iPhone: especially, you know

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Marissa's iPhone: it could just look like P. Fluid it on the ground if you were to walk in the stall later. So once you. If you do catch the water break or see the amnion appear. Then that's when we start our timers for you know, an ideally 30 min or less complete delivery of the foal. So

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Marissa's iPhone: that's also when the students notify me, and I make my way to the farm to be there to assist them. But there is assistant needed, and talk through the process with the students. They can learn during things. But

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Marissa's iPhone: 30 min or less is the ideal timeline that you'd want that foal to be completely expelled and into the world. So if you are reaching a point where you're getting already close for me. Personally, if I'm getting into the 20 min mark, I'm already thinking about ways I may need to assist

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Marissa's iPhone: and also potentially earlier in that timeline depending on the presentation before, and if I feel like the mare is struggling or she is not, she's already spent 10 or 15 min, 10 min, maybe even an active labor, and has not made any progression. So part of it's a visual

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Marissa's iPhone: evaluation of maybe, since it's needed. But as a textbook, just hard, fast timeline. 30 min is like your mark of

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Marissa's iPhone: Yeah, there, there's something wrong. We need to intervene in some way, shape or form or reevaluate the position of foall etc.

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Linne, Paige K: I think this is one of those places where it's good to have more experience and mares under your belt, to be able to read that situation, because that's the challenge with academia is we. We teach everything by textbook, right? And I think mares are classic example where the textbook is really important as a rule of thumb but it often doesn't tell you the whole story. So I think Marisa's point about like.

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Linne, Paige K: yes, that's my timeline. But if I don't see a presentation that I like, or if I feel like she's not making very much progress, or

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Linne, Paige K: just struggling too much to deliver that foal. Then I might read the situation a little bit differently.

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Kris Hiney: Yeah. And they do. I think when we talk about guidelines, and those are like the ideal, but things can still be normal and be outside of like the prescribed time. So I'll give you my little favorite story for you. This is, it was like a Easter Sunday.

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Kris Hiney: We turned out some heavy, pregnant mares to have their little turnout time, but there's tons of people around, and the mare lay down, enrolled in her water broke, and then she got up, and she was like, Oh.

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Linne, Paige K: oh, no, I didn't want that to happen.

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Kris Hiney: And then you know, if you do the textbook like time wise. Then she clearly, there is no baby coming, and I'd actually call

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Kris Hiney: But it's like, Hey, you know, this is when this happened. We're not really having any progress. And they're like, well, probably sounds like Babys dead, and I was like.

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Kris Hiney: why he was in here, and his little head is moving around so like she actually foal no problem. What? She finally decided to to get down to business. But she was definitely in that like, there are way too many people out here. I didn't know how to do this game. And so yeah, they can fall outside of the textbook and still be fine. So it's kind of knowing when to panic and when to not.

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Linne, Paige K: which is the hardest thing. Tell me when to panic.

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Marissa's iPhone: I have, you know, and for me I live a little bit away from the farm. So

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Marissa's iPhone: it's nice if if Mom and baby are happy and babies already out. By the time I get there. Then I'm like, Okay, you know, the students are there to watch. That's ha! That means smooth delivery. I'm happy, you know. But when those students do call me to alert me of the water breaking, or the other being present, I have my check list of questions that I asked them right off the bat. Hey? Do you know? Do you see the feet? Are they in normal position? Do you see the nose. What is Mom doing?

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Marissa's iPhone: You know I kind of is the sac white, you know, is everything, not all the normal things we talked about. I just automatically ask very quickly. And then I already know in my mind, okay, at least, we're starting off from the right foot, and

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Marissa's iPhone: it's something to go south before I get there. They usually call me again. At that point, usually on my way. I'm pretty fast

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Marissa's iPhone: but you know II touch base on all of the things and revisit those healthy or appropriate checkpoints that we want to see at that point in time.

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Marissa's iPhone: So we kind of know what's going on there. Ahead of time. And I can do my job that I need to verify those things before I'm actually present.

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Linne, Paige K: I think it helps too to kinda know what you're rolling into, because in our position, not being there to see stage One or the water breaking. If you get to the farm and you're going to have to take action. It helps to have that information from the students to say, Okay, this is

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Linne, Paige K: what they've seen in the last 15 20 min, or for you to be able to say, Okay, it sounds like we're gonna have to do something. I need you to be ready with palpation sleep when I get there. And just to be able to keep things calm so that you yourself, when you arrive.

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Linne, Paige K: are ready to take action, instead of being a tornado of chaos, and making everything worse, because in horses are flighty creatures.

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Kris Hiney: so how often have you had situations where you were like. No, no. Well, you don't tell them to panic, right? Because that would. That would not be the right thing to do. How often does it happen that you're like, Oh, okay, like, we gotta get serious here now.

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Marissa's iPhone: Luckily, not very often. The beautiful thing with mares is they don't have a very high percentage of dystocia problems compared to some of your other livestock species. So that's the one thing we we did right in the design of horses. So

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Marissa's iPhone: my most extreme example is, I had a red bag last year. But it was a normal gestation rate. It wasn't like a pre term, or like a premi delivery in terms of timeline. So we were watching the mare and she was on track for her normal arrival of the baby, and so we had the mare and watched luckily.

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Marissa's iPhone: and the students call me, and they knew right away they told me it's a red bag.

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Marissa's iPhone: I said so. I knew in that time. Frame red bags are extremely time sensitive. If there's even a chance for that foal to survive, and a lot of times they could still die, even with prompt intervention. But anyways

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Marissa's iPhone: I ended up having to coach them via face time

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Marissa's iPhone: to deliver that full, so I said, Put me on facetime right now. I will not get there fast enough to handle this situation. So y'all are just gonna have to do this, and I'm gonna talk you through it. And so one of them held the phone and one of them help assist the baby.

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Marissa's iPhone: And luckily it was successful in the foal, was born alive, but unfortunately he had a complex list of issues because of that complication. But he was born, and once he was out, I said, Is the foall live? They said, Yes, I say, okay, do, Xyz. I'm on my way. And then I got off the phone and drove.

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Marissa's iPhone: and then, you know, he mainly went to the hospital because of his complications. But but yeah, that was exciting for them. But it's one of those things where

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Marissa's iPhone: it doesn't matter if I could. You know, teleportation was not option. So I just luckily was able technology. These days. I could see what was going on, and basically just talk them through handling that situation. So

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Marissa's iPhone: that's my most, my most extreme story. Usually, if a mare needs assistance. I'm here in time to help and teach them and show them through that. But

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Marissa's iPhone: that that one was an exceptional time sensitive case. So, Paige, what about you.

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Linne, Paige K: We have every now and then we'll have like a mild Dystocia that to be 100% honest, the mare, if she was foaling in a pasture, would probably resolve herself with a little bit more time and stage 2 that might be like front legs are crossed, and they just need unlocking, or sometimes an elbow kind of stuck back over the pelvis that you see one leg a lot more than the other, and those are super easy to resolve, just helping with contractions and and going with Mom.

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Linne, Paige K: That I had one last year. That was probably my most

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Linne, Paige K: severe to dystocia that I've seen and it all things consider, wasn't that bad? But it was a situation where actually, I was supposed to be in Fort Worth, and we that trip for our ranch horse team got cancelled, so I happen to be at fulling that night. We had another mare go

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Linne, Paige K: and the second mare's water broke while we were finishing up after care on the first mayor, and you could kinda tell immediately that something was not right. Instead of seeing 2 front feet like you normally would. The mare was laying down, and there was just a lot of protrusion up towards her rectum. So kinda had a hunch. Something's not right. I'm gonna put palpation sleeves on and just see what I can feel. Just very superficially.

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Linne, Paige K: Long story short, this baby had. It's head kind of turned in the birth canal. And then, as a result of how it's coming out, the front feet were coming out up towards the rectum instead of Swan, diving gracefully. So, still resolved relatively easily. We didn't need to go to the hospital or anything but

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Linne, Paige K: Push back in kind of reposition, grabbed the head and put her in the right position. But that would be one.

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Linne, Paige K: you know, if you put dystocia general term for a difficult birth on a spectrum. That's still not the most severe, but it's certainly one that I'm glad we're there to catch early, because it could have resulted in some tearing so

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Linne, Paige K: Other than that. II think it's we're glad we have these stories like Marissa. I've never had a red bag knock on wood here. And we don't wanna have them to to be able to teach the kids how they normally are. But it's helpful for our kids to be able to understand. Okay, if you're gonna foal out mares in volume, you're probably gonna have some of these situations. So here's how you handle yourself and your horse

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Kris Hiney: when that time comes. Yeah, yeah. So if you, if you want horror stories that II I don't know, I must have had just more problem horses when when I played this game, but

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Kris Hiney: probably my worst story. So I'll I'll share with us with everybody, and hopefully, nobody's eating right now. But we had 2 recip mares. So the the donor marehad multiple follicles. So ended up with like 2 embryos. Right? So like identical. Well, no, not identical. Let's be honest fraternal twins, right? So. But a twin into mares, but then they're bur. They're expected foaling dates gonna be the same right because same follicle, or

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Kris Hiney: same ovulation, essentially.

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Kris Hiney:  So the students, the first baby that one was like textbook she did like, Marissa said. She's like, Oh, make a baby. It's out in 15 min. Baby stands up passed meconium like I do all the things I'm done like in like 30 min, and the kids are like, Oh, we're done time to go home.

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Kris Hiney: And then matching Mare, those students did. It were not able to get milk from them now. They should have kind of put 2 and 2 together like wait a second. This is the age of the embryo, but anyhow.

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Kris Hiney: so nobody was there when the second mare

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Kris Hiney: fold. and she did like you talked about with the feet that go up. So the full was mal positioned, and so the feet in the head went up through

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Kris Hiney: the rectum, and the force of that mare, pushing the rest of the baby, came out the birth canal.

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Kris Hiney: and the crew showed up in the morning to essentially a dead foal hanging out of this mayor. Oh, man! So how's that for a terrible story? That's where you get traumatized students for life, and they don't want to do this again.

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Marissa's iPhone: Yeah.

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Kris Hiney: try to beat that.

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Marissa's iPhone: I hope I don't, Doctor Hiney. You know it's I guess my worst one is, I did have one foal die in utero. And we didn't know that at the time that is dead in utero. We did know that the mare had, placentitis so we were treating it at that time.

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Marissa's iPhone: and

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Marissa's iPhone: The mare went into labor in the middle of the day, so luckily we were around, and we had her up in a smaller point outside.

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Marissa's iPhone: so she wanted to deliver that foal, but likely because it was already dead. It was very malposition. And there was. It was basically nose up to rectum, trying to come out forehead first and both arms completely back, so like

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Marissa's iPhone: toes towards hail. Essentially so like.

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Marissa's iPhone: there's no way you can physically reposition a foal like that without causing uterine, or, you know, vaginal

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Marissa's iPhone: you know, tears. Essentially. With you can't bring a whole arm in full rotation from front to back, so I mean, fortunately, unfortunately, the foal was already dead. So in terms of the mare's recovery from that.

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Marissa's iPhone: since the foal was already dead, we ended up electing to do a fetotomy

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Marissa's iPhone: which is not very fun. So essentially, they ended up putting them. We took the mare to the Vet school, and they put her under anesthesia. She's completely knocked out. They put her upside down, lifted her basically like a surgical position on the table and could lift her hind and up. And they essentially

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Marissa's iPhone: manually, internally

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Marissa's iPhone: piece up the foal and remove the foal in pieces, which doesn't sound great. And it's kind of graphic. But it was the only way to get the foal out

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Marissa's iPhone: and not risk injuring the mare. So we did that instead of a C section.

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Marissa's iPhone: So we didn't have the same level of intense recovery for that mare to overcome afterwards. And but you know we were able to make that decision to do fetotomy instead of a C section because of what was already you know, dead.

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Marissa's iPhone: That was not a very fun one and obviously the students didn't have to see the fetotomy and all that that happened in the Vet. School. I was there with the mare for that process, but

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Marissa's iPhone: still, not really fun thing to share that we had to cut up this fall into pieces basically to take it out. But it was the best thing for that mare in in terms of her well being and recovery rate after the fact. So

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Marissa's iPhone: you know that full was extremely malpositioned, but it probably was as such, because it kind of actually wasn't alive to you.

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Marissa's iPhone: Move essentially. So, yeah, that's what people tend to forget. They think that the mare's uterus is doing all the work. But the little guys got to help out, too. Right? So they actually do kind of turn themselves around. And so, yeah, some of those bad dystocias may mean there's already something

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Kris Hiney: something amiss with the whole thing so well. II know that we're getting a a little long here. I might have to call you guys back later on, but any other like advice for folks as they're kinda prepping. If they're first timers on, you know

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Kris Hiney: how to how to approach this process.

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Linne, Paige K: I would just say, Do your homework and be prepared. Know where you're gonna full out. Know your mayor very well. If you can get history on her. We have a spreadsheet, marrisa. I'm sure you have the same, even though it's all up here in your head to you know your mare's really well, and you know what's normal for them as they approach partition and then have your fulling kit ready. So have all your supplies that you need, so that

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Linne, Paige K: when water does break and the time has come, you're prepared, and you can actually hopefully enjoy the miracle of life instead of being concerned that you don't have Xyz with you. Wherever your mare is delivering, so that you're ready for aftercare, and the first few hours of that foals life, and you can actually enjoy the moment

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Marissa's iPhone: yeah, we always have emergency kit ready to go and fully prepped. So if we do have to intervene, we can

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Marissa's iPhone: and you know I'm fortunate that I have an arsenal of vets that can come if more

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Marissa's iPhone: skill and expertise beyond my scope is needed. Our medical intervention. So. You know, we're lucky that they do emergency calls. And

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Marissa's iPhone: you know, our, our basically staff rotates through. Who's on call. So

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Marissa's iPhone: I know all of us well enough that I figure out which one is on. Call for the week, and I will call them directly. But I do not call them directly unless I know they are on call. So if any situation rises. We have

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Marissa's iPhone: that immediate response. So if you you know again, that's part of our preparation, though I'm always prepared that I know I can't handle every situation on my own, or there's stuff that is, I always there's always new things that happen, even though I've been doing this for a while.

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Marissa's iPhone: So I'm not afraid to ask questions or have them come check.

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Marissa's iPhone: If I have any doubt in my mind, I would rather be safe than sorry. It's not worth being overly confident on if it's something that I'm questioning.

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Marissa's iPhone: so that's part of my preparation as well. But not everyone has that luxury of having multiple vets to call in an emergency situation. So if you know, you're someone that maybe doesn't have that asset. Then maybe you should consider not following your mare at home, or having someone that you know can come in appropriate timeline with more experience in you, or, you know, choosing to pull your mare out at a vet clinic or experience foaling facility.

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Marissa's iPhone: Because it is a big investment, and you know things can go wrong. And of course the last thing any wants to happen is for something that has appointed a return to happen to your mare or foal, so

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Marissa's iPhone: I don't like gambling with those things. So you know, we're prepared for those events as well.

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Kris Hiney: Yeah. And I think you know, never a bad idea to remind people how important that veterinary client patient relationship is, and to have that firmly in place because you don't want to just cold call a vet. You've never used to be like, hey? It's 3 Am. What you doing generally doesn't end. Well. Yeah. These same vets that would call come, for those situations are the same ones that help us with. All of our reproductive management and health of our mares.

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Marissa's iPhone: you know, pre and post following and gestationally. So

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Marissa's iPhone: I work very closely with all them. So they they are really well informed. The loop as well, which helps them handle those situations when they arrive better as well.

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Kris Hiney: Paige any last thoughts from an Aggie before I let you guys go.

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Linne, Paige K: I would echo Marisa. Sentiment of I think we are. II know. I sometimes forget how lucky we are to have the Vet. School 5 min down the road, and to know the vets and to be able to speed dial them. But I think that is important when it comes to a vet, a breeding manager, etc., just having that support system in your pocket.

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Linne, Paige K: And then just just keeping things in mind that

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Linne, Paige K: when in doubt a lot of times they did this without us for a long time. Horses. They'll do it without us for a long time after us, and

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Linne, Paige K: it's it can be alarming for students, but it's part of nature, and I think that's at least Marissa for me. That's why it never gets old watching a group of 6 or 7 students see birth for the first time, even though it might be your 100 and fiftieth like that miracle of life is pretty unique. And I think it's something that makes horses different, because we're emotionally invested and

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Linne, Paige K: that is a part of their life that we get to be a part of so it's neat.

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Marissa's iPhone: I don't get tired of it. I like watching them every time it is like sleep. Better come on. It is such a unique experience. So I'm it's always really exciting process, and you know we never want the bad things to happen. And I don't ever want the students, you know. You want to protect them from the bad things, but it's part of it's part of the game we play. So, although you don't want those to be the case, it's a good learning opportunity for them to see the

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Marissa's iPhone: negative side. And then it's in that inevitable part of what we do as well. So but you know. The only other thing I guess we normally talk about is

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Marissa's iPhone: That, I would say is.

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Marissa's iPhone: you know, we are there to make sure the mare and foall hit all their major checkpoints, and everything is happy and healthy, and on the right track to continue to be healthy. But we intervene at that stage as little as humanly possible. We get in, we get out. We make sure the baby does what he needs to do. Mare passes placenta, etc. And then we let Mom and baby be mom and baby. I think that's the most

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Marissa's iPhone: thing that's hard is to resist temptation of everyone's really excited about Mom and baby. You know, they might love my mom. Love on baby like everyone's cute happy. But I really preach to my students that

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Marissa's iPhone: if we overdo it, we can impede negatively on that mare and foal relationship that is really critical to be well bonded early on. And so we don't want to be in the way of that, or sometimes baby thinks, your mom, because we're in there too much. They're like, Oh, they start following you around. You're like. No, no, I'm not your mom. So you know we we do what we need to do to take care of them.

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Marissa's iPhone: But it it's hard. You need to kind of pull the reins back a little on giving them too much love and confusing baby, and or discouraging Mom from being connected to the foal, so

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Marissa's iPhone: there'll be plenty of time to love on Mom and baby later, once they're little down the road. So I think that's the hardest thing. Everyone gets really excited and wants to be in there and be in action. But it's it's good for mom and baby to just be mom and baby, too, in the beginning, is always like, no, you don't need to help the baby learn to stand

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Linne, Paige K: always still, are not a nurse. Yes, that's when everybody's the most impatient. Why would you just drink yet, after a thousand misses of the udder help it?

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Kris Hiney: Oh, funny! Well, I appreciate your guys. Perspective on all this, and maybe I'll have to call you back because we really didn't get through the rest of the deal right? So we didn't get through Stage 3 and nursing and all of the funs. But no, I think it's it's good to get educators perspective on, you know, just thinking through. calmly about what's right and what's when to worry about it.

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Kris Hiney: Well, I know you guys are busy. You're obviously you're already having babies. Paige, although nobody sees them. Marisa. I know you've got to be getting there here pretty quick, so

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Marissa's iPhone: no, no, not yet. But we're in the brief calm before the storm. That's gonna arrive quickly. So get your coffee pots ready. So yeah.

ris Hiney: well, I appreciate your guys time with me today. And if you have more questions about breeding mayors or mayor info management. You can visit us at extension horses, org

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Kris Hiney: or certainly email us at as well, or maybe facetime, Marissa. I don't know. We'll see if she wants her cell phone number in the show notes just kidding. I would not do that to you. Well, I appreciate it. And again, this has been our Tackbox talk horse stories for the purpose.