Tack Box Talk
Tack Box Talk
Social License to Operate: The Story of keeping the horse industry in society's good graces
Dr. Colleen Brady, from Purdue University and researcher in show horse welfare discusses how the concept of social license to operate applies to the horse world. We discuss the reaction on social media to some of the more controversial events or videos that have been making the rounds!
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Questions? khiney@okstate.edu
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Kris Hiney: Welcome to extension horses, Tack Box Talk series, horse stories with a purpose. I'm your host, Dr. Kris Hiney, and today we're going to be talking about a topic that kind of is in the buzz of the media and the horse industry these days, and that is talking about social license to operate. So with me today is one of our returning guests, Dr. Colleen Brady, from Purdue University. So welcome back, colleen.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): Hello! Good to be back.
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Kris Hiney: And I know. Colleen, we talk about this quite a bit, just due to some of the work that we've been involved together, which we'll probably bring up later on in the show. But I know even some of our colleagues have got to testify in court about social license to operate. That was always very exciting. So I think probably what we should start with like any good, you know. Here we go. Here's a paper, a definition. So what is social license to operate?
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Colleen Brady (she/her): Well, and that's a good question, Kris, to start with, because it it can kind of a little bit challenging to explain. So really, what it is
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Colleen Brady (she/her): kind of a tacit agreement between society as a whole and a particular industry or activity. If society thinks that
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Colleen Brady (she/her): activities okay, and whether it's okay for that
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Colleen Brady (she/her): activity to operate. The terminology was actually 1st used a lot around mining and some other things, and whether it was okay with society that the impact some of the mining practices were having on the environment. So this is not a contractual agreement. And it's not a legislative agreement. It's more of a sense of whether society says, Yeah, this is okay, or society says, No, no, we think that's we think that's not acceptable.
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Kris Hiney: And how does society say? Is it? Is it? You know? Sometimes we talk about voting with your pocket books, or is it public outcry like which.
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Kris Hiney: how do you know when society changes their mind? Because this is evolving right? So my example I would give is like child labor. We were kind of like, yeah, maybe they should go to school instead. How do we know when?
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Kris Hiney: When us right? It's the Us. Society decides if something is okay or not.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): Well, and that brings up when you, when you talk about the US. Society, I think that brings up a really important point, and especially with an industry like the horse industry that's so broad and international and global. That every society may not actually even be the same, that there may be things that in the US. They say, Yeah, this is okay, or in the US. They say, No, this is not okay. And other countries are okay with. And an example, I think, about is actually
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Colleen Brady (she/her): horse slaughter.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): because in the US that definitely is not
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Colleen Brady (she/her): something that has social license to operate
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Colleen Brady (she/her): and in other countries and other parts of the world. Slaughtering for horses, for human consumption or for use in other ways is.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): is completely accepted within their societies. So there's a lot of different things, including culture and tradition. That can impact this social license to operate.
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Kris Hiney: Right? And so
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Kris Hiney: so, whether we culturally, because we could argue, nobody eats horses here, but they do in other countries, right? And it's just your kind of
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Kris Hiney: what is considered cultural norm. So how do you follow
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Kris Hiney: when something changes? Because what we're going to be talking about? The horse industry is maybe a
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Kris Hiney: a shift in perception or concern over a loss of social license to operate. So how do you know
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Kris Hiney: if it, if it changes it really like? How many likes on Facebook, or how many like news articles are like, how do we monitor that.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): Well, it's a lot of different things you can look at ultimately, kind of the final loss of social license would actually be legislation that says this activity.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): is no longer allowed.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): An example. Again, in the US. That could be related is greyhound racing. There used to be lots of locations in the United States where greyhound racing was legal.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): And
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Colleen Brady (she/her): at this juncture, I don't believe there's any left. They've actually been phasing out of the over the last several years. The last greyhound tracks to close were
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Colleen Brady (she/her): in Florida, and I believe at this time that those actually are now closed. And that's legislative.
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Kris Hiney: So they.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): And.
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Kris Hiney: Legislators get. The push from the public, then, is what happened.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): Right.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): which is, which is in effect what happened with
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Colleen Brady (she/her): with even with the slaughter plants. That closed in the US when there were 2
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Colleen Brady (she/her): is and it's not that there was actually any legislation that ended up saying the plants must close.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): It was. There's legislation that said
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Colleen Brady (she/her): the Federal plants must have USDA inspectors, and the funding for the inspectors
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Colleen Brady (she/her): was not
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Colleen Brady (she/her): renewed. And so then, if you can't have Federal inspectors at a Federal plant. Then you can't do the activity. But in effect, that's how that was legislatively
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Colleen Brady (she/her): closed. How does this happen? You know that's again an evolving way.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): Obviously, social media. Has a big role in forming opinions and changing opinions and informing what people think about all kinds
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Colleen Brady (she/her): of things. Activist groups
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Colleen Brady (she/her): that often have specific agendas. And there are a lot of activist groups around the whole space of animal welfare not just exclusively around horses. But horses definitely are our target. The horse industry is definitely a target industry for some of those.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): Some of those groups that have really strong beliefs about what is and is not okay
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Colleen Brady (she/her): to do with animals.
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Kris Hiney: So I want to get into some of what we as the I guess academia, and industry advocates are
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Kris Hiney: talking about, we need to be concerned. And I think as an industry, or this happens a lot, right? So when an industry is under attack, they tend to just
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Kris Hiney: close ranks and say, you just don't understand right? I think that's a pretty common thing, but that doesn't work right. So closing ranks and saying, No, no, we're fine. Leave us alone is not an effective
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Kris Hiney: or viable strategy. When, when that social license is under threat, correct.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): Right. And that's actually one. When you asked about kind of as the process proceeds, as you move towards losing
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Colleen Brady (she/her): social license, one of the things that does happen is when
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Colleen Brady (she/her): you lose the faith in from the public that the industry can regulate itself.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): And they're just like, you know what we don't think you're doing a very good job regulating yourself. We think somebody else.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): or there needs to be another oversight group, because you have demonstrated to us that you're
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Colleen Brady (she/her): not fulfilling our expectations. And that's when you start seeing things
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Colleen Brady (she/her): kind of move towards that, that risk of losing that social license.
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Kris Hiney: So let's go ahead and get into the ugly, and we might offend some people. So maybe I should. What is this? The trigger warning. If we're talking about your group like, I mean, if we're talking about your group, you need to sometimes do some self reflection which we talk about a lot. So we'll do that.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): And just.
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Kris Hiney: Oh, go ahead!
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Colleen Brady (she/her): I. And I just want to add to when and we'll talk about some examples. And you're a hundred percent right about self reflection.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): And the thing I always tell students when we talk about these issues, too, is
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Colleen Brady (she/her): is, I think, as an industry. If we get into a situation where we're pointing fingers at other parts of the industry and saying, Well, it's a that part of the industry problem. It's that part of the industry problem. We're actually doing a disservice to the whole industry. This is actually a human behavior issue.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): The things that create concerns the horses.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): are probably what people get worried about. But the humans are the same, and the drivers of the human behaviors that people have concerns about
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Colleen Brady (she/her): are probably the same drivers, no matter what component of the industry
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Colleen Brady (she/her): they're involved in.
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Kris Hiney: Cause we're gonna be talking. You know, when we talk about horses largely, we're gonna be talking about sport
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Kris Hiney: right? And we do know that once sport
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Kris Hiney: is a thing right? Once there's competition, there's
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Kris Hiney: unfortunately always going to be some element that does things that
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Kris Hiney: end up needing regulations, right. So whether it's gymnasts or baseball, or like something is going to need to be ultimately regulated at some point in time.
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Kris Hiney: Guess it is right. I mean, I we can just keep talking about it's like football and head injuries, you know. Or you know, young kids playing contact sports is that losing social license to operate. So there's a lot of examples in our society that I think people could think about like, Oh, our our standards and mores changed with
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Kris Hiney: changing values, changing knowledge, etc.
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Kris Hiney: Alright. You ready to talk horses.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): Yeah, well, and just one other thing, too, on that point, too, and at least relative to horses. The social license tends to be a much bigger issue with
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Colleen Brady (she/her): more affluent countries and in more affluent societies, and where the concerns are often wrapped around sport and competition, and the uses of horses
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Colleen Brady (she/her): in, in sport and competition less so.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): Then, you see, in countries where horses are still, used primarily
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Colleen Brady (she/her): as part of a livelihood, or as or as working horses. When you, when you start seeing the concerns about social license, it does not tend to be in those countries.
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Kris Hiney: No, no, not when it's day to day subsistence like. And so we're not talking about working donkeys or working equids here. So this is.
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Kris Hiney: you know, I guess, horses that have the luxury of higher standards
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Kris Hiney: of care. I mean, we could largely say that that a lot of times the
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Kris Hiney: the standard of
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Kris Hiney: care. Maybe
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Kris Hiney: Hi, or maybe we could even get to what that means, because there's a lot of pieces into this about, you know what constitutes. If the horse is being cared for, well or not, or handled correctly or not correctly?
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Kris Hiney: Alright, I'm still trying to get us there. We're ready to jump off and start offending people right.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): Yeah, let's do it.
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Kris Hiney: Here we go alright. So the easy one to pick on because it comes up right is the race horses
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Kris Hiney: and part of that is, they're televised, and big events and big names with recognition that have come afoul. So why don't you talk to me a little bit about
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Kris Hiney: race horses.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): So yeah, the racehorses have been racing
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Colleen Brady (she/her): has actually been a target.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): For several years, and probably until
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Colleen Brady (she/her): the last 6 weeks or so. Probably got the most, especially in terms of social media. Traction
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Colleen Brady (she/her): in terms of concerns. And they're basically in in a couple of primary categories.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): there are concerns about racing two-year-olds.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): and whether we should be racing 2 year olds. What?
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Colleen Brady (she/her): A few years ago?
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Colleen Brady (she/her): I probably should have written some of these numbers down.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): There was a situation at Santa Anita racetrack, where they had a
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Colleen Brady (she/her): disproportionately high level of catastrophic injuries. Over one of their winter race meets, and
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Colleen Brady (she/her): that generated a real concern about racing, and one of the things that people that are concerned about bring into. And this again, this isn't just racing. This is across all the competition.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): all horse sport
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Colleen Brady (she/her): is, you know, whether horses even want to be doing what they're being asked to do. And is it okay?
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Colleen Brady (she/her): 2.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): Ask a two-year-old to race against
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Colleen Brady (she/her): 10 other 2 year olds or a 3 year old, or is it okay to ask
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Colleen Brady (she/her): an event horse to go cross country? Or is it okay to ask a dressage horse to.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): you know, perform those maneuvers? Is it okay
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Colleen Brady (she/her): to
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Colleen Brady (she/her): ask a Western pleasure horse to do the class specifications?
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Colleen Brady (she/her): and that's 1 of the big questions as you start looking at this, and people
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Colleen Brady (she/her): perceive what they think is and is not okay, kind of through their own personal lens, which even some of the research, some of the my group, and I have done says that Lens is highly informed by what part of the horse industry they're engaged in.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): People tend to be pretty comfortable with things.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): And this is, people within. The industry tend to be pretty comfortable with things that are the norms in their industry.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): And they think, yes, that's okay. That's being considered of. Of what's the horse's needs are.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): and are much like more likely to be.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): judgmental of
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Colleen Brady (she/her): practices that are in other industries that this you know, that that racing does that
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Colleen Brady (she/her): that
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Colleen Brady (she/her): stock horses do that sport horses? Do you know they were? We tend to point fingers at other industries much more than analyze our own segment of the industry.
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Kris Hiney: Right? Yeah, because all of those industries you just mentioned, you know whether it's stock horses with reining horses, or Arabians, or Saddlebreds, or walkers, or dressage horses or standard bread, like everybody. I think if you identify in a segment, you probably have opinions about somebody else's segment, right? Hey? We don't. We don't do that right. We don't do that to our halter horses, or we don't like.
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Kris Hiney: But
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Kris Hiney: oh, it's so hard right, because if we step back and say, What does this mean for the horse? Right? That's where you truly
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Kris Hiney: have to think about whether we're doing the right thing or not. But how do you not have your color perception
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Kris Hiney: already in place? Right? Because all of those years of all of our experiences shape
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Kris Hiney: what we believe is okay or not. Okay?
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Kris Hiney: And to throw this out, the public doesn't have those. Right? So they're looking at. Why did it die, or why is it unhappy like they are seeing it? I think, almost from a
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Kris Hiney: I could argue a better perspective, and a lot in the horse industry are like. No, their perception is wrong, because they don't understand.
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Kris Hiney: But
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Kris Hiney: does somebody, looking at something with clear eyes, have a better opinion than I'm just rambling now? I need to let you talk.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): No, but it's a good question. I mean, there's so many complicated things. I mean, how do we know?
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Colleen Brady (she/her): And this is an area that there are researchers all across the world. Now, really looking at.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): how do we know what constitutes? And I'm air quoting here a good life?
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Colleen Brady (she/her): For horses. The International Society of Equitation. Science is an international academic
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Colleen Brady (she/her): organization.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): That
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Colleen Brady (she/her): their last conference that was actually the conference theme was a good life
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Colleen Brady (she/her): for horses, and all of the research that was presented was about, how do we even know
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Colleen Brady (she/her): if the horse's what the horse's belief and perception is, what's the horse's experience, and how?
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Colleen Brady (she/her): How can we learn better how to interpret
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Colleen Brady (she/her): the messages the horse is sending us, and that even ties into the
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Colleen Brady (she/her): the project that you kind of referenced earlier, that that we've been working on
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Colleen Brady (she/her): is to develop some material for people to to learn how to assess the effective state or the emotional and mental.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): emotional and mental state of horses. And even within the Science Community.
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Colleen Brady (she/her): looking at the emotional
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Colleen Brady (she/her): and mental state as
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Colleen Brady (she/her): a foundational part of identifying what is
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Colleen Brady (she/her): a good well-being or a good life is relatively new, I mean, in the last 10 to 15 years.
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Kris Hiney: And it. And it's hard, right? So this is not easy work. And and we'll we probably will talk specifically about the project in a little bit, but
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Kris Hiney: even recognize emotion in an animal like
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Kris Hiney: it takes it takes context right? Because, you know, exuberant bucking can be from a variety of reasons, right? And unless you're putting it into context, you don't know whether that's play behavior, pain, behavior, frustration, behavior. And I'm gonna
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Kris Hiney: you know, it's me. So there's probably gonna be a dog involved at some point in time. But like a lot of stress behaviors we see in dogs may show themselves as like, Oh, maybe that's just play behavior. But it's actually stress behavior, which is the same thing in horses. And so that one of the concepts that I wanted to pitch to you. You know you talked about a good life for the horse. Does the horse want to do it or not?
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Kris Hiney: Some of the more
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Kris Hiney: newer, I guess training styles of dogs is asking them, do you want to participate or not? So they talk about it as a start button behavior that the that the dog is actually opting in for the training session. And if they say no, not mood for it, you're supposed to not do it.
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Kris Hiney: That's completely not what we would talk about ever in horse industry. Right? Have you ever heard that talked about in the horse industry?
549
00:42:54.670 --> 00:42:55.290
Colleen Brady (she/her): No
550
00:42:55.810 --> 00:43:08.550
Colleen Brady (she/her): like. No, but what you hear more is like with use. The racehorse, you know. Horses love to run. They're born to run they love to, you know I don't. The segment that I'm most personally involved in in the industry is with
551
00:43:08.640 --> 00:43:12.490
Colleen Brady (she/her): dressage and eventing. I don't. I can't tell you
552
00:43:12.690 --> 00:43:17.369
Colleen Brady (she/her): how many people I've heard say. Oh, my horse just loves to jump. My horse just loves to jump.
553
00:43:18.710 --> 00:43:19.750
Colleen Brady (she/her): maybe.
554
00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:21.490
Colleen Brady (she/her): maybe.
555
00:43:22.160 --> 00:43:31.679
Colleen Brady (she/her): But if the horse was running free, and the jump was there very few horses? And yes, I've seen it happen. I've seen a horse actually
556
00:43:31.940 --> 00:43:35.319
Colleen Brady (she/her): in an arena or in a field where there's a jump, and they hop over the jump.
557
00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:47.820
Colleen Brady (she/her): but, generally speaking, they're going to want to probably go around instead of over the top, so. But then, how much of that is necessary? I think that also becomes
558
00:43:47.970 --> 00:43:54.940
Colleen Brady (she/her): the question. And I think there's what so many more questions around this whole space right now than there are
559
00:43:55.130 --> 00:43:56.920
Colleen Brady (she/her): answers, because.
560
00:43:57.170 --> 00:44:03.519
Colleen Brady (she/her): on the other hand, as long as my horse is not in a bad mental state, even if
561
00:44:03.810 --> 00:44:07.940
Colleen Brady (she/her): jumping's not his favorite thing to do in the world. I'm only asking him to do that
562
00:44:08.990 --> 00:44:10.380
Colleen Brady (she/her): 30 minutes.
563
00:44:10.450 --> 00:44:12.700
Colleen Brady (she/her): a couple times a week, maybe.
564
00:44:13.010 --> 00:44:14.490
Colleen Brady (she/her): and in exchange.
565
00:44:14.490 --> 00:44:15.570
Kris Hiney: contract, life, right.
566
00:44:15.570 --> 00:44:19.549
Colleen Brady (she/her): So the contractual. Is it a transactional agreement? You know I mean
567
00:44:20.290 --> 00:44:25.799
Colleen Brady (she/her): listeners out there. How many of you love every single aspect of your job.
568
00:44:26.020 --> 00:44:30.429
Colleen Brady (she/her): or every single aspect of your life. You know everything you do.
569
00:44:30.510 --> 00:44:32.450
Colleen Brady (she/her): I hate cleaning the house.
570
00:44:32.550 --> 00:44:33.520
Colleen Brady (she/her): I hate it.
571
00:44:34.500 --> 00:44:37.289
Colleen Brady (she/her): but I hate living in the dirty house more.
572
00:44:38.020 --> 00:44:40.990
Colleen Brady (she/her): So, you know, you know, what's the
573
00:44:41.110 --> 00:44:50.959
Colleen Brady (she/her): how? How do we? How do we figure out that that balance of what is okay and what's not right and not all stress
574
00:44:51.100 --> 00:44:52.290
Colleen Brady (she/her): is bad.
575
00:44:52.290 --> 00:45:03.650
Kris Hiney: Right? Otherwise, we're boredom and lethargy, and all that dullness like. If there's nothing right, if you experience no stress, you're probably not also living a good life either.
576
00:45:03.890 --> 00:45:10.029
Colleen Brady (she/her): Right. And then that creates a whole other set of issues that we know have a negative impact on well-being.
577
00:45:11.200 --> 00:45:15.989
Kris Hiney: So, and and I might have took us driving off the cliff there, because those are
578
00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:32.479
Kris Hiney: big questions, and I always wouldn't wonder. Would a horse ever choose to participate right? Because I never think of like the things that horses do, as probably as much fun as my dogs eating cookies and playing with toys and running fast like they love that. So they're like, yep do it some more right but it's
579
00:45:32.550 --> 00:45:41.930
Kris Hiney: but what we ask some horse. Some horses may right so. But how do we know right? How do we know if they're saying Yes, I want to do this.
580
00:45:41.950 --> 00:45:43.589
Kris Hiney: and if they are saying.
581
00:45:43.890 --> 00:45:45.540
Kris Hiney: No, I don't.
582
00:45:45.940 --> 00:45:48.350
Kris Hiney: When should we listen
583
00:45:48.730 --> 00:45:52.809
Kris Hiney: to when? A horse is saying, no, I don't want to do this.
584
00:45:54.670 --> 00:45:56.969
Colleen Brady (she/her): That is the 10 million dollar question, doctor.
585
00:45:57.331 --> 00:46:05.280
Kris Hiney: Okay. So these are some of the maybe the philosophical decisions that we have to think about. But so getting back to
586
00:46:05.340 --> 00:46:13.290
Kris Hiney: when we're in danger of losing social license to operate. So you talk about the breakdowns like the public doesn't want to see horses dying
587
00:46:13.670 --> 00:46:20.960
Kris Hiney: right for sport. I would agree that that is a bit. That's that's an easy one for people to say like.
588
00:46:21.470 --> 00:46:26.759
Kris Hiney: Oh, I don't think that's okay. Right? So what X amount of animals are supposed to die.
589
00:46:26.800 --> 00:46:29.149
Kris Hiney: that that's a tough one, right?
590
00:46:29.300 --> 00:46:49.770
Kris Hiney: And then the other piece of that which you kind of talked about, or maybe didn't like that. We had all those drug things come up. Which then the public is probably saying, you're cheating, right? So that's a whole other story is cheating. Okay, generally, we don't think cheating is okay.
591
00:46:50.210 --> 00:46:57.600
Kris Hiney: right? Olympics and all that. And so is cheating. Okay? Especially then if you're putting chemicals in an animal.
592
00:46:58.360 --> 00:47:06.209
Colleen Brady (she/her): Well, and I think that's another place, too, that and you'd mentioned earlier. And again, I'll probably keep saying this throughout
593
00:47:06.560 --> 00:47:13.509
Colleen Brady (she/her): most of these issues are human behavior issues being expressed through the way horses are
594
00:47:13.850 --> 00:47:15.360
Colleen Brady (she/her): trained, managed.
595
00:47:15.500 --> 00:47:16.770
Colleen Brady (she/her): or competed.
596
00:47:17.815 --> 00:47:18.770
Colleen Brady (she/her): Because
597
00:47:19.030 --> 00:47:20.170
Colleen Brady (she/her): to
598
00:47:22.630 --> 00:47:29.779
Colleen Brady (she/her): use medication in order to have a competitive advantage. That's not something that a horse would ever push the start button on.
599
00:47:30.900 --> 00:47:35.283
Colleen Brady (she/her): You know, that's a human decision.
600
00:47:36.390 --> 00:47:37.570
Colleen Brady (she/her): to do that.
601
00:47:37.660 --> 00:47:45.870
Colleen Brady (she/her): And you know we have regulations in place. Every competitive industry has regulations in in place and spends
602
00:47:46.410 --> 00:47:52.409
Colleen Brady (she/her): 1 million literally millions of dollars across the industry trying to
603
00:47:52.750 --> 00:47:58.669
Colleen Brady (she/her): maintain that level playing field and say, we know that everybody out here is competing
604
00:48:00.330 --> 00:48:09.790
Colleen Brady (she/her): in a similar physiological space, you know. And that's part of where the protection for the horses are is coming into that that horses aren't on
605
00:48:09.950 --> 00:48:17.990
Colleen Brady (she/her): medication that's going to mask pain or mask discomfort, or make it
606
00:48:18.170 --> 00:48:24.600
Colleen Brady (she/her): more likely for them to actually overextend themselves, or do more than they really are physically
607
00:48:25.200 --> 00:48:33.059
Colleen Brady (she/her): capable of doing. But that's definitely an inability for an industry to regulate. That
608
00:48:33.100 --> 00:48:37.440
Colleen Brady (she/her): is definitely something that does chip away at that social license.
609
00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:37.930
Kris Hiney: But.
610
00:48:37.930 --> 00:48:42.239
Colleen Brady (she/her): Because the general public and the general public understands
611
00:48:42.300 --> 00:48:44.150
Colleen Brady (she/her): performance enhancing drugs
612
00:48:44.920 --> 00:48:46.300
Colleen Brady (she/her): from human sport.
613
00:48:46.420 --> 00:48:50.860
Colleen Brady (she/her): even if they have nothing. No real familiarity with
614
00:48:50.940 --> 00:48:52.360
Colleen Brady (she/her): animal sport.
615
00:48:53.600 --> 00:48:57.530
Colleen Brady (she/her): most have familiarity with human sport.
616
00:48:57.690 --> 00:49:05.210
Colleen Brady (she/her): you know, of some sort or another, and in in almost all human sport, you know the use of performance enhancing drugs is.
617
00:49:05.320 --> 00:49:11.820
Colleen Brady (she/her): you know, it's damaged, the social license not rescinded, but damaged the social license to operate
618
00:49:11.920 --> 00:49:23.620
Colleen Brady (she/her): even in a sport as popular as baseball. When you know baseball. I remember at a time in my life when baseball was like one of the most popular states in the or sports in the country. It was
619
00:49:24.230 --> 00:49:27.829
Colleen Brady (she/her): and they went through a huge PED scandal.
620
00:49:28.130 --> 00:49:33.970
Colleen Brady (she/her): And I think if you looked at the data of how many people watch baseball or engaged in baseball.
621
00:49:34.110 --> 00:49:37.570
Colleen Brady (she/her): It's never recovered its popularity from
622
00:49:37.960 --> 00:49:41.059
Colleen Brady (she/her): Mark Mcguire and Barry Bonds and
623
00:49:41.330 --> 00:49:44.729
Colleen Brady (she/her): Sammy Sosa. You know, when they were out there
624
00:49:45.609 --> 00:49:49.919
Colleen Brady (she/her): performing at an incredibly high level, but very clearly.
625
00:49:50.560 --> 00:49:54.639
Colleen Brady (she/her): And we now know were were using performance enhancing drugs to do that.
626
00:49:54.640 --> 00:50:02.190
Kris Hiney: Yeah. And I would say, the viewing population that wants to watch races, or, you know, horse races has gone down to because of
627
00:50:02.200 --> 00:50:12.589
Kris Hiney: fatalities and drug scandals, right? Because people aren't in like, if you're like a bunch of crooks, sorry racehorse people. But I mean, if that's what's being seen by the public.
628
00:50:12.810 --> 00:50:14.130
Kris Hiney: That's a problem.
629
00:50:15.080 --> 00:50:21.999
Colleen Brady (she/her): And that's something, too, that I think is an interesting thing internationally, because definitely, especially in
630
00:50:22.040 --> 00:50:33.869
Colleen Brady (she/her): not especially in the US. But you know, a huge driver of what ends up on television in the US. Is, you know, sponsored dollars advertising dollars. Who's watching? You know how many eyes are on it.
631
00:50:34.140 --> 00:50:37.509
Colleen Brady (she/her): and there's only a small handful of races
632
00:50:37.650 --> 00:50:42.910
Colleen Brady (she/her): that we see live here in the Us. Or any horse sports honestly.
633
00:50:43.060 --> 00:50:49.070
Colleen Brady (she/her): But then you go to some other countries. I mean, if you go to Ireland or the UK.
634
00:50:49.400 --> 00:50:51.909
Colleen Brady (she/her): you know you walk into any sports bar.
635
00:50:52.100 --> 00:50:57.619
Colleen Brady (she/her): and you know a couple of screens will have horse racing on them. A couple of screens will have soccer on them.
636
00:50:57.720 --> 00:51:01.280
Colleen Brady (she/her): you know, and you see horse sport much more
637
00:51:01.310 --> 00:51:04.310
Colleen Brady (she/her): at a forefront in front of
638
00:51:05.890 --> 00:51:09.049
Colleen Brady (she/her): televised in front of the public eye. Then you see.
639
00:51:09.290 --> 00:51:12.753
Colleen Brady (she/her): when you see here in the in the United States
640
00:51:13.420 --> 00:51:23.369
Colleen Brady (she/her): and so then that does to get back to what you're saying. And so then that puts even more pressure on these half a dozen races a year that might be televised that if something
641
00:51:24.210 --> 00:51:27.619
Colleen Brady (she/her): happens, that is the impression
642
00:51:27.690 --> 00:51:30.750
Colleen Brady (she/her): that those people that only watch the Kentucky Derby
643
00:51:30.860 --> 00:51:34.489
Colleen Brady (she/her): have about horse racing, because that's the only race they watch all year.
644
00:51:34.600 --> 00:51:35.380
Colleen Brady (she/her): Yep.
645
00:51:35.380 --> 00:51:40.530
Kris Hiney: Yeah, so it's much more impactful. And again you said, there's cultural norms, too, over like
646
00:51:40.889 --> 00:51:52.580
Kris Hiney: how everybody interprets things. So I wanna cause. I don't want to just pick on racehorses. And this the idea of doing this podcast actually came about because of the Olympics because there was a bit of a
647
00:51:52.850 --> 00:52:11.900
Kris Hiney: a kerfluffle which I'll let you describe over one of the rather famous Olympians. So and I'm sure, after we talk about this, everybody's going to go youtubing. But I don't know if you want to name names or not. But why don't you tell us what's going on? And why, this really
648
00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:15.470
Kris Hiney: is sort of a social license to operate conversation.
649
00:52:16.020 --> 00:52:17.366
Colleen Brady (she/her): So well.
650
00:52:18.660 --> 00:52:24.300
Colleen Brady (she/her): There are no secrets with social media out there. So any of you listeners that
651
00:52:24.510 --> 00:52:29.756
Colleen Brady (she/her): follow the Olympic sports at all, I am sure, are already familiar with.
652
00:52:30.390 --> 00:52:35.790
Colleen Brady (she/her): the video that came out just a few days prior to
653
00:52:35.950 --> 00:52:38.530
Colleen Brady (she/her): the start of the equestrian events
654
00:52:38.780 --> 00:52:39.585
Colleen Brady (she/her): at
655
00:52:40.750 --> 00:52:47.950
Colleen Brady (she/her): at the Olympics this year in 2024 of a multi-time gold medalist, Charlotte Dujardin.
656
00:52:48.545 --> 00:52:52.510
Colleen Brady (she/her): Giving a lesson and using a lunge whip
657
00:52:52.760 --> 00:52:55.440
Colleen Brady (she/her): and striking the horse
658
00:52:55.850 --> 00:53:00.809
Colleen Brady (she/her): many, many, many times. As they're trying to move. Get this horse to go
659
00:53:01.580 --> 00:53:05.099
Colleen Brady (she/her): to go forward. There was some language.
660
00:53:05.860 --> 00:53:11.880
Colleen Brady (she/her): If you want to see what the language is. You can watch the video. I'm sure it's got a million one hits on
661
00:53:12.010 --> 00:53:19.699
Colleen Brady (she/her): on Youtube, and it created it created a huge a huge uproar in part.
662
00:53:20.130 --> 00:53:24.000
Colleen Brady (she/her): because Ms. Dujardain had always been.
663
00:53:24.790 --> 00:53:29.350
Colleen Brady (she/her): had a very strong reputation as being a person who did things the right way.
664
00:53:30.319 --> 00:53:34.810
Colleen Brady (she/her): Who did things with horse well-being as a high priority.
665
00:53:35.436 --> 00:53:39.089
Colleen Brady (she/her): She's well known as one of the 1st
666
00:53:39.776 --> 00:53:41.743
Colleen Brady (she/her): Elite riders to
667
00:53:42.450 --> 00:53:45.549
Colleen Brady (she/her): compete at the elite level, wearing a riding helmet
668
00:53:45.720 --> 00:53:56.579
Colleen Brady (she/her): which was just as foreign in dressage at that time as it would be for somebody in Western pleasure to go in a Western pleasure class voluntarily
669
00:53:56.690 --> 00:54:01.719
Colleen Brady (she/her): wearing a helmet. She's been well documented as
670
00:54:01.740 --> 00:54:06.709
Colleen Brady (she/her): a person who puts a high priority on horses, having turnout
671
00:54:06.760 --> 00:54:09.720
Colleen Brady (she/her): with other horses and with their buddies
672
00:54:10.090 --> 00:54:16.359
Colleen Brady (she/her): and them having an opportunity to be horses, and to not spend all the time drilling in the arena.
673
00:54:16.709 --> 00:54:19.040
Colleen Brady (she/her): To go out on hacks, and to you know
674
00:54:19.060 --> 00:54:22.390
Colleen Brady (she/her): all the things that everybody who says.
675
00:54:22.390 --> 00:54:23.180
Kris Hiney: Right.
676
00:54:23.420 --> 00:54:26.740
Colleen Brady (she/her): These are the things that make a good life for horses do
677
00:54:28.300 --> 00:54:32.120
Colleen Brady (she/her): And then this video comes out that
678
00:54:32.310 --> 00:54:36.419
Colleen Brady (she/her): overwhelmingly shows
679
00:54:36.650 --> 00:54:40.290
Colleen Brady (she/her): a different side of her training strategies.
680
00:54:40.790 --> 00:54:47.040
Colleen Brady (she/her): And so I think a part of the shock was actually the person because of the
681
00:54:47.130 --> 00:54:51.049
Colleen Brady (she/her): of the image that that she had
682
00:54:52.490 --> 00:54:55.170
Colleen Brady (she/her): and so she
683
00:54:55.850 --> 00:55:04.259
Colleen Brady (she/her): Announced her withdrawal. She's been suspended by the FEI. I she withdrew from the Olympics. The British team sent the alternate
684
00:55:05.150 --> 00:55:12.630
Colleen Brady (she/her): instead. And it put even more pressure on the equestrian events at the Olympics as a whole.
685
00:55:12.690 --> 00:55:18.070
Colleen Brady (she/her): to demonstrate that these horses, at this elite level of competition.
686
00:55:19.430 --> 00:55:26.300
Colleen Brady (she/her): were being treated correctly, their welfare was being kept in mind. And
687
00:55:26.930 --> 00:55:36.319
Colleen Brady (she/her): and although welfare has always been in, you know, as the things that we say. We're concerned about the Paris Olympics. And this predates. This was in place they were.
688
00:55:36.560 --> 00:55:37.440
Colleen Brady (she/her): you know.
689
00:55:38.325 --> 00:55:43.359
Colleen Brady (she/her): Talking about how important welfare was going to be, and these are going to be the horse welfare Olympics.
690
00:55:43.520 --> 00:55:51.939
Colleen Brady (she/her): far before the Charlotte Dujardin video came out. But there was actually a specific veterinarian who is in charge of
691
00:55:53.670 --> 00:55:56.950
Colleen Brady (she/her): in charge of observing for any welfare
692
00:55:57.930 --> 00:55:58.720
Colleen Brady (she/her): concerns
693
00:55:59.116 --> 00:56:12.110
Colleen Brady (she/her): at the Olympics, which again, although they've had the regular stewards and the judges, and all those other people that obviously, if they saw something, it was within their responsibility to to address the issue. This is the 1st Olympic event
694
00:56:12.130 --> 00:56:15.029
Colleen Brady (she/her): that it had basically a welfare officer
695
00:56:15.808 --> 00:56:18.279
Colleen Brady (she/her): there to to provide
696
00:56:18.500 --> 00:56:24.159
Colleen Brady (she/her): oversight. And all of these things that are happening are all comes back to this idea of social license
697
00:56:24.190 --> 00:56:27.190
Colleen Brady (she/her): to operate, and an awareness and a concern
698
00:56:27.220 --> 00:56:27.970
Colleen Brady (she/her): that
699
00:56:28.930 --> 00:56:40.899
Colleen Brady (she/her): that that might be eroding. And so the industry trying to look and say, what do we need to do to make sure that we're doing right by the horses, and that the people believe we're doing right by the horses.
700
00:56:40.900 --> 00:56:55.260
Kris Hiney: Right. So this was, you know, everybody in good faith, trying to do exactly the right thing to show that. Yes, the horses are taken care of and treated very correctly. And then this like secret footage, it wasn't really secret, but just
701
00:56:55.520 --> 00:56:56.680
Kris Hiney: the home barn.
702
00:56:56.680 --> 00:56:57.870
Colleen Brady (she/her): The bombshell.
703
00:56:59.420 --> 00:57:04.659
Kris Hiney: and I mean, I read, you know, we talked about this and read some of the comments and a lot of people were saying.
704
00:57:04.790 --> 00:57:09.559
Kris Hiney: you know, and by a lot, who knows how many it needs? But should horses be part of the Olympics?
705
00:57:11.100 --> 00:57:15.493
Colleen Brady (she/her): And that is there. There are. There's a lot of conversation
706
00:57:16.320 --> 00:57:24.040
Colleen Brady (she/her): about that, especially again on social media, because this is a space that I have a lot of interest in and do a lot of my research. I
707
00:57:24.330 --> 00:57:36.470
Colleen Brady (she/her): I guess I make that my excuse to read a lot of social media around this topic. And it's interesting to read through the comments, too, even things like this video. And I think.
708
00:57:36.530 --> 00:57:48.669
Colleen Brady (she/her): and I think this shows part of where this is. Such a challenge is. Is you go to some things you'll say. Oh, my gosh! That's the most awful thing I've ever seen, you know, relative to this video. But then you'll read comments that say.
709
00:57:49.740 --> 00:57:53.290
Colleen Brady (she/her): that's not that big a deal. I've seen people do far worse.
710
00:57:53.770 --> 00:57:59.359
Colleen Brady (she/her): And you know. And that's where, too, when we start talking about even as an industry, of how do we talk about this, and what
711
00:57:59.550 --> 00:58:03.829
Colleen Brady (she/her): the language to use. So this phrase.
712
00:58:04.290 --> 00:58:06.050
Colleen Brady (she/her): well, I've seen worse.
713
00:58:06.830 --> 00:58:08.430
Colleen Brady (she/her): That that doesn't mean that
714
00:58:08.580 --> 00:58:10.519
Colleen Brady (she/her): whatever this other thing is, isn't bad
715
00:58:11.640 --> 00:58:12.590
Colleen Brady (she/her): I don't. I think.
716
00:58:12.590 --> 00:58:13.090
Kris Hiney: That like.
717
00:58:13.090 --> 00:58:13.570
Colleen Brady (she/her): Really.
718
00:58:13.570 --> 00:58:16.575
Kris Hiney: This conversation I was like, well, it's not bleeding.
719
00:58:16.910 --> 00:58:22.397
Colleen Brady (she/her): You know, we we need to be really careful about using what the psychologists call
720
00:58:23.560 --> 00:58:25.350
Colleen Brady (she/her): advantageous comparison.
721
00:58:25.350 --> 00:58:26.240
Kris Hiney: Yeah, yeah.
722
00:58:26.240 --> 00:58:27.420
Colleen Brady (she/her): To say.
723
00:58:27.430 --> 00:58:30.670
Colleen Brady (she/her): and I think we need to set the bar a little higher than that.
724
00:58:30.670 --> 00:58:31.020
Kris Hiney: Yeah.
725
00:58:31.020 --> 00:58:36.459
Colleen Brady (she/her): Is it the worst thing you've ever seen? The bar needs to be a little bit higher, I think, and I think society will demand
726
00:58:37.050 --> 00:58:47.450
Colleen Brady (she/her): that the bar has to be higher than is this the worst thing you've ever seen? And I'm just gonna say, and you say, Well, you kind of jokingly said, well, at least it wasn't bleeding.
727
00:58:47.700 --> 00:58:56.979
Colleen Brady (she/her): But then there was again for a few of you those of you that are listeners that are dressage followers. I think you're going to know where I'm coming going with next.
728
00:58:57.604 --> 00:58:59.969
Colleen Brady (she/her): One of the US. Dressage horses
729
00:59:00.070 --> 00:59:02.220
Colleen Brady (she/her): was actually eliminated
730
00:59:02.350 --> 00:59:05.479
Colleen Brady (she/her): partway through its tests at the Olympics.
731
00:59:06.010 --> 00:59:08.830
Colleen Brady (she/her): because when it came in the arena.
732
00:59:09.170 --> 00:59:15.299
Colleen Brady (she/her): this is a mare that's known to be a little. She's a young mare, very
733
00:59:15.330 --> 00:59:17.020
Colleen Brady (she/her): high energy environment.
734
00:59:17.250 --> 00:59:20.310
Colleen Brady (she/her): and she spooked a little bit when she came in the arena.
735
00:59:20.440 --> 00:59:25.610
Colleen Brady (she/her): Well, as she went partway through the test, and she came up towards the judge. The bell rang.
736
00:59:26.080 --> 00:59:26.990
Colleen Brady (she/her): and
737
00:59:27.460 --> 00:59:43.149
Colleen Brady (she/her): again, for those of you that don't ride dressage when you never want the judge to ring the bell, because that means you need to stop, and that either you've gone off pattern. You're riding the test incorrectly, or there's a serious concern, and you're probably about to be eliminated.
738
00:59:43.280 --> 00:59:55.390
Colleen Brady (she/her): And in this particular situation, when that mare spooked when she came in the arena, she nicked her hind fetlock, and she had a spot of blood she had. She was a dark bay with 4 white feet.
739
00:59:55.500 --> 00:59:58.279
Colleen Brady (she/her): She had a spot of blood on one of her white feet.
740
00:59:58.350 --> 01:00:02.370
Colleen Brady (she/her): and the rules are very, very clear. No blood
741
01:00:02.720 --> 01:00:04.849
Colleen Brady (she/her): if there's any blood anywhere.
742
01:00:04.980 --> 01:00:09.100
Colleen Brady (she/her): The horse is eliminated, and they were eliminated.
743
01:00:10.350 --> 01:00:16.460
Kris Hiney: So one is happenstance, and but they're at least holding criteria. I guess. I mean.
744
01:00:16.460 --> 01:00:17.280
Colleen Brady (she/her): Yeah.
745
01:00:17.280 --> 01:00:29.320
Kris Hiney: Big piece. And even when you were talking like colleen, I was thinking like, Okay, so we always play the which is Worst game, you know, to be one of, you know this trainers, horses that have this
746
01:00:29.580 --> 01:00:35.250
Kris Hiney: the other hours of life sound pretty good compared to probably what a lot of other horses have.
747
01:00:35.530 --> 01:00:40.659
Kris Hiney: How do you weigh that out? Right? So how much time of
748
01:00:40.910 --> 01:00:49.850
Kris Hiney: discomfort? Unhappiness is not correct. I think those are pretty weighty questions that we don't have the answers to. But there are things that kind of go through my head like, is it?
749
01:00:50.050 --> 01:00:53.119
Kris Hiney: If you're trying to do all the other things good.
750
01:00:53.510 --> 01:00:56.870
Kris Hiney: I don't know what's the answer.
751
01:00:57.430 --> 01:01:05.069
Colleen Brady (she/her): And I think that's really. And that's where I think when we have referred to earlier about self reflection. And I think that's where, as an industry. Broadly.
752
01:01:05.370 --> 01:01:11.540
Colleen Brady (she/her): we really need to think about that. And the other thing we need to get better at, I think.
753
01:01:11.680 --> 01:01:22.579
Colleen Brady (she/her): is, is we need to get better at and continue to do research and trying to figure out what matters to the animal? And how can we figure out?
754
01:01:22.770 --> 01:01:27.160
Colleen Brady (she/her): Are there things that we can measure. Observe
755
01:01:27.610 --> 01:01:29.759
Colleen Brady (she/her): that help tell us
756
01:01:30.330 --> 01:01:41.670
Colleen Brady (she/her): what are the things that are most important to the animal. We know that it's very important for horses to have social interaction with other horses.
757
01:01:41.880 --> 01:01:45.940
Colleen Brady (she/her): That is really really important. Free social interaction.
758
01:01:46.516 --> 01:01:51.569
Colleen Brady (she/her): That's it's just such. A. It's a hardwired part of them as a herd
759
01:01:51.790 --> 01:01:56.510
Colleen Brady (she/her): animal to want to be around other horses and interact
760
01:01:56.920 --> 01:01:58.427
Colleen Brady (she/her): with other horses.
761
01:01:59.470 --> 01:02:04.855
Colleen Brady (she/her): And that's and that's that is, keep asking all the hard questions.
762
01:02:05.560 --> 01:02:10.100
Colleen Brady (she/her): because this is really complicated. This isn't something that it's not
763
01:02:10.340 --> 01:02:15.836
Colleen Brady (she/her): 2 plus 2 is 4. But that's where, even back to the question. You know.
764
01:02:16.430 --> 01:02:24.600
Colleen Brady (she/her): it is still not a hundred percent confirmed that Olympics will be that the equestrian events will be at the Olympics in Los Angeles in 2028.
765
01:02:25.468 --> 01:02:29.319
Colleen Brady (she/her): What we do know is that the modern Pentathlon.
766
01:02:29.320 --> 01:02:29.850
Kris Hiney: It lost.
767
01:02:29.850 --> 01:02:30.370
Colleen Brady (she/her): Not.
768
01:02:30.370 --> 01:02:31.830
Kris Hiney: social license to operate.
769
01:02:31.830 --> 01:02:39.300
Colleen Brady (she/her): Will will not have show jumping. Yeah, in it. This was the last year here in 2024
770
01:02:39.827 --> 01:02:49.889
Colleen Brady (she/her): was the last year that showjumping the equestrian component was included in the modern Pentathlon because of a situation, a single situation
771
01:02:49.980 --> 01:02:53.899
Colleen Brady (she/her): that occurred at the Tokyo Olympics, where.
772
01:02:54.040 --> 01:02:56.450
Colleen Brady (she/her): in front of everybody who watched
773
01:02:57.120 --> 01:03:01.390
Colleen Brady (she/her): the event. And the Olympics, you know. A coach
774
01:03:01.680 --> 01:03:02.889
Colleen Brady (she/her): punched a horse.
775
01:03:04.050 --> 01:03:04.670
Colleen Brady (she/her): And
776
01:03:06.100 --> 01:03:09.219
Colleen Brady (she/her): It created a tremendous uproar.
777
01:03:09.360 --> 01:03:11.020
Colleen Brady (she/her): and the result
778
01:03:11.430 --> 01:03:15.820
Colleen Brady (she/her): was loss of social license in that particular context.
779
01:03:15.820 --> 01:03:16.190
Kris Hiney: Yeah.
780
01:03:16.553 --> 01:03:19.819
Colleen Brady (she/her): And they are now the last I read there.
781
01:03:19.830 --> 01:03:26.449
Colleen Brady (she/her): basically replacing the show jumping with an American ninja warrior type. Obstacle course.
782
01:03:26.450 --> 01:03:27.830
Kris Hiney: I do love this.
783
01:03:27.830 --> 01:03:34.350
Colleen Brady (she/her): Which is fun to watch Yup. And so there are no animals. But you know that even. And
784
01:03:36.120 --> 01:03:48.830
Colleen Brady (she/her): you heard the context of that discussion a lot. And when I say, heard that includes social media and all kinds of other outlets of, and it's back to this idea of the horse's choice.
785
01:03:49.220 --> 01:03:55.069
Colleen Brady (she/her): If the Olympic motto is higher, faster, stronger, and about human athletes, then why is there
786
01:03:55.450 --> 01:03:57.600
Colleen Brady (she/her): equine athlete involved
787
01:03:58.230 --> 01:04:01.959
Colleen Brady (she/her): and back to even how, as society
788
01:04:02.830 --> 01:04:04.250
Colleen Brady (she/her): changes.
789
01:04:04.280 --> 01:04:05.940
Colleen Brady (she/her): you know. Back when
790
01:04:06.290 --> 01:04:12.730
Colleen Brady (she/her): horses 1st were in the Olympics they were still a critical part of the military.
791
01:04:12.840 --> 01:04:13.720
Colleen Brady (she/her): and
792
01:04:15.360 --> 01:04:22.960
Colleen Brady (she/her): and you had to actually be a military, a person in the military to show in the equestrian events in the Olympics.
793
01:04:23.850 --> 01:04:25.750
Colleen Brady (she/her): Obviously.
794
01:04:26.080 --> 01:04:32.969
Colleen Brady (she/her): things have changed since that time. You know what the way we view horses
795
01:04:32.990 --> 01:04:37.750
Colleen Brady (she/her): now in the role horses have in our society is very different than it was
796
01:04:39.110 --> 01:04:41.729
Colleen Brady (she/her): back then, a hundred plus
797
01:04:42.060 --> 01:04:43.700
Colleen Brady (she/her): a hundred plus years ago.
798
01:04:43.910 --> 01:04:46.779
Colleen Brady (she/her): And so what does that mean?
799
01:04:47.194 --> 01:04:51.039
Colleen Brady (she/her): And I think this is just so important, because
800
01:04:51.993 --> 01:04:53.299
Colleen Brady (she/her): back to
801
01:04:53.710 --> 01:04:54.650
Colleen Brady (she/her): not
802
01:04:55.860 --> 01:05:01.070
Colleen Brady (she/her): falling into the trap of pointing at other parts of the industry.
803
01:05:01.490 --> 01:05:05.790
Colleen Brady (she/her): If one part of the industry loses its social license to operate
804
01:05:06.460 --> 01:05:07.190
Colleen Brady (she/her): that
805
01:05:07.700 --> 01:05:16.171
Colleen Brady (she/her): has tremendous potential to become a snowball effect on more and more parts of the industry.
806
01:05:17.770 --> 01:05:20.240
Colleen Brady (she/her): The 1st one to go down is going to be the hard one
807
01:05:20.790 --> 01:05:25.059
Colleen Brady (she/her): after that, for others to go down is going to be a much easier
808
01:05:25.380 --> 01:05:28.550
Colleen Brady (she/her): task for those that that's their goal.
809
01:05:29.292 --> 01:05:31.660
Colleen Brady (she/her): And we cannot
810
01:05:32.325 --> 01:05:36.819
Colleen Brady (she/her): help ourselves, simply saying, Oh, no, everything we're doing is fine. You just
811
01:05:37.040 --> 01:05:38.570
Colleen Brady (she/her): you just don't know any better.
812
01:05:39.098 --> 01:05:47.150
Colleen Brady (she/her): That's not actually the correct argument. You know. There probably are things in all of our industries that we need to take a long, hard look at
813
01:05:47.360 --> 01:05:49.650
Colleen Brady (she/her): and say, is this.
814
01:05:50.190 --> 01:05:52.060
Colleen Brady (she/her): and if we're going to justify it.
815
01:05:52.600 --> 01:05:53.980
Colleen Brady (she/her): do we have
816
01:05:54.190 --> 01:05:57.470
Colleen Brady (she/her): actual empirical data to justify
817
01:05:57.990 --> 01:06:03.310
Colleen Brady (she/her): that it is. And even if we do, is that still enough? So back to the 2 year old racehorses.
818
01:06:03.790 --> 01:06:05.800
Colleen Brady (she/her): there's quite a lot of research
819
01:06:06.320 --> 01:06:09.329
Colleen Brady (she/her): that's been done that shows that
820
01:06:10.220 --> 01:06:12.330
Colleen Brady (she/her): appropriate exercise
821
01:06:12.370 --> 01:06:17.750
Colleen Brady (she/her): in young developing horses actually helps increase bone density
822
01:06:17.780 --> 01:06:19.710
Colleen Brady (she/her): and helps them develop
823
01:06:19.800 --> 01:06:21.970
Colleen Brady (she/her): a stronger skeletal system.
824
01:06:22.690 --> 01:06:23.800
Colleen Brady (she/her): So that's
825
01:06:24.130 --> 01:06:28.109
Colleen Brady (she/her): one of the arguments to say, racing 2 year olds. Is not
826
01:06:28.410 --> 01:06:29.660
Colleen Brady (she/her): that bad for them?
827
01:06:29.860 --> 01:06:31.810
Colleen Brady (she/her): Because we know that.
828
01:06:32.370 --> 01:06:36.510
Colleen Brady (she/her): They that that properly done exercise helps them develop.
829
01:06:37.100 --> 01:06:38.100
Colleen Brady (she/her): Okay.
830
01:06:39.100 --> 01:06:40.360
Colleen Brady (she/her): we know this.
831
01:06:40.390 --> 01:06:45.240
Colleen Brady (she/her): That's what the data says. But what about all the other things? Does it still make it okay?
832
01:06:45.410 --> 01:06:45.820
Kris Hiney: Right.
833
01:06:47.220 --> 01:06:51.859
Colleen Brady (she/her): because, are there other things other factors to consider other than just bone
834
01:06:52.710 --> 01:06:54.189
Colleen Brady (she/her): bone development?
835
01:06:54.190 --> 01:07:04.769
Kris Hiney: Yeah. And I just, I think in other countries, too, like sometimes there'll be a big outcry about a change, that is, you know, kind of around that social licensed operator. The one I'm thinking about is whip usage.
836
01:07:04.840 --> 01:07:13.369
Kris Hiney: and everybody's like, Oh, well, you know, it's going to be a complete disaster, but doesn't correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't Australia.
837
01:07:13.530 --> 01:07:15.070
Kris Hiney: or at least not yet.
838
01:07:15.140 --> 01:07:17.940
Kris Hiney: not yet. But they're on the road, or testing.
839
01:07:17.940 --> 01:07:18.610
Colleen Brady (she/her):
840
01:07:18.610 --> 01:07:19.570
Kris Hiney: The theory.
841
01:07:19.800 --> 01:07:26.980
Colleen Brady (she/her): There's well there. There are definitely more regulations in many sports or sports. Now
842
01:07:27.210 --> 01:07:28.250
Colleen Brady (she/her): about
843
01:07:28.660 --> 01:07:34.879
Colleen Brady (she/her): how frequently you can use the whip. How many times you can strike the horse with a whip and within a certain window of time.
844
01:07:36.300 --> 01:07:40.620
Colleen Brady (she/her): What types of whips you can use those sorts of things to try to address
845
01:07:41.593 --> 01:07:45.210
Colleen Brady (she/her): some of those concerns around
846
01:07:45.360 --> 01:07:48.060
Colleen Brady (she/her): around that. And
847
01:07:48.090 --> 01:07:49.523
Colleen Brady (she/her): there are
848
01:07:50.670 --> 01:07:52.119
Colleen Brady (she/her): you know, and
849
01:07:52.360 --> 01:07:58.319
Colleen Brady (she/her): it is the response. And this happens in eventing again. That's 1 of the sports that I'm more involved in.
850
01:07:58.440 --> 01:08:02.060
Colleen Brady (she/her): you know. If you hit a horse more than 3 times
851
01:08:02.416 --> 01:08:08.749
Colleen Brady (she/her): you can get basically a yellow card, so similar like you would in soccer a warning to say, No, -
852
01:08:09.010 --> 01:08:10.080
Colleen Brady (she/her): You can't do that
853
01:08:12.070 --> 01:08:14.989
Colleen Brady (she/her): But then things happen like
854
01:08:16.050 --> 01:08:21.260
Colleen Brady (she/her): within the last I can't remember was last. I get mixed up in Australia because they're on the other side of the.
855
01:08:21.740 --> 01:08:23.849
Colleen Brady (she/her): It's like spring is fall and fall is spring.
856
01:08:24.290 --> 01:08:33.249
Colleen Brady (she/her): But a recent Melbourne Cup winner, and the Melbourne Cup in Australia would be of similar importance to the Kentucky Derby. Here. It's a huge race.
857
01:08:34.689 --> 01:08:39.159
Colleen Brady (she/her): you can very clearly see in the pictures of the winner
858
01:08:39.609 --> 01:08:44.089
Colleen Brady (she/her): in the winner's circle welts.
859
01:08:44.910 --> 01:08:45.809
Colleen Brady (she/her): The whip.
860
01:08:46.215 --> 01:08:52.429
Colleen Brady (she/her): Which, of course, then, are all over social media, and that's right, and it creates concerns about.
861
01:08:52.510 --> 01:08:57.659
Colleen Brady (she/her): And then when people say, Well, the horse wants to run. The horses love to run.
862
01:08:57.930 --> 01:09:00.219
Colleen Brady (she/her): They're here because they love it so.
863
01:09:00.359 --> 01:09:03.220
Colleen Brady (she/her): And then the people say, Well, then, why do you have to hit it so much.
864
01:09:05.990 --> 01:09:14.450
Colleen Brady (she/her): And then another, you know. And then there's research that actually says that there's an inverse relationship between the number of times a horse is hit and how fast they go.
865
01:09:14.800 --> 01:09:18.340
Colleen Brady (she/her): And basically that hitting them doesn't necessarily make them run faster.
866
01:09:18.340 --> 01:09:19.670
Kris Hiney: Likes it. Yeah.
867
01:09:20.520 --> 01:09:26.129
Colleen Brady (she/her): And so then they're like, well, maybe they could be just as fast without whips. But then
868
01:09:26.479 --> 01:09:29.380
Colleen Brady (she/her): the people that are pro-whip use
869
01:09:29.620 --> 01:09:45.769
Colleen Brady (she/her): talk about how. Let's remember that they actually use the whips to help guide the horse. Also, remembering that the jockey's legs are very high up, you know. They can't use their legs in the same way that those of us who ride in a more traditional astride seat
870
01:09:46.600 --> 01:09:48.910
Colleen Brady (she/her): can ride, and so that, especially
871
01:09:49.340 --> 01:10:00.420
Colleen Brady (she/her): going to the outside of the track, depending on which direction which country you're in and which direction you're going, that that just rate, that holding that whip up so the horse can see it
872
01:10:00.430 --> 01:10:11.980
Colleen Brady (she/her): can really be important to help keep the horse going straight, which then is safer for everybody. And so these are the conversations that are going that are going on around this whole.
873
01:10:12.310 --> 01:10:15.710
Colleen Brady (she/her): this whole idea of whip use.
874
01:10:16.520 --> 01:10:21.580
Colleen Brady (she/her): But Australia is probably the closest, I would say at this point.
875
01:10:22.436 --> 01:10:24.659
Colleen Brady (she/her): In in making some
876
01:10:24.980 --> 01:10:26.540
Colleen Brady (she/her): more sweeping
877
01:10:27.319 --> 01:10:34.339
Colleen Brady (she/her): changes to what's allowed with whips. And some of the more active researchers looking at whip use are
878
01:10:34.370 --> 01:10:36.009
Colleen Brady (she/her): are based in Australia.
879
01:10:36.350 --> 01:10:56.530
Kris Hiney: So I wanna talk, maybe about what then? Because to me, what we always talk about when we're teaching this is that social license to operate ultimately comes down to individual actions right? Because it can be as much as that one horrific incident, the punching the horse on international television to be like, and you're done.
880
01:10:57.470 --> 01:10:59.950
Kris Hiney: So how does one
881
01:11:00.090 --> 01:11:08.880
Kris Hiney: try to cause? It's everybody's job right? What is our role to try to maintain
882
01:11:08.960 --> 01:11:14.999
Kris Hiney: that social license to operate for horse usage, for recreation and sport.
883
01:11:16.180 --> 01:11:23.049
Colleen Brady (she/her): You know, I think it goes back to what we started talking about is I guess I would say there's 2 pieces.
884
01:11:23.787 --> 01:11:29.750
Colleen Brady (she/her): One is self reflection. You know on how. What are you doing with your horse.
885
01:11:29.890 --> 01:11:32.469
Colleen Brady (she/her): you know, or the horses that you
886
01:11:32.580 --> 01:11:36.409
Colleen Brady (she/her): that you interact with? Do you believe
887
01:11:36.620 --> 01:11:38.120
Colleen Brady (she/her): you know, that
888
01:11:38.310 --> 01:11:44.860
Colleen Brady (she/her): you are making the majority of the decisions in the best interest of the horse. Are you minimizing
889
01:11:47.130 --> 01:11:49.599
Colleen Brady (she/her): discomfort or pain? You know.
890
01:11:50.720 --> 01:11:56.110
Colleen Brady (she/her): if you think you're causing the horse pain, how are you justifying, causing pain.
891
01:11:56.820 --> 01:12:00.889
Colleen Brady (she/her): And to me those are places where you start. And again, this is going to be my opinion.
892
01:12:01.820 --> 01:12:07.009
Colleen Brady (she/her): I really question why we should be causing horses pain.
893
01:12:09.220 --> 01:12:11.000
Colleen Brady (she/her): A little discomfort.
894
01:12:11.300 --> 01:12:19.669
Colleen Brady (she/her): you know. Yeah, I probably I'm not sure I would want somebody to sit on my back and squeeze their leg against me, either, you know. But if we're causing, and again.
895
01:12:19.680 --> 01:12:24.390
Colleen Brady (she/her): you know, back to another thing that's going around right now on the dressage
896
01:12:24.470 --> 01:12:27.630
Colleen Brady (she/her): is the blue tongues that the
897
01:12:28.010 --> 01:12:36.469
Colleen Brady (she/her): tightness of the curb chains, and the fit of some of the bits on some of these sources, and then the amount of hold how much pressure they're putting on the bit
898
01:12:36.800 --> 01:12:42.069
Colleen Brady (she/her): actually is creating situations where it basically acts like a tourniquet
899
01:12:42.320 --> 01:12:45.779
Colleen Brady (she/her): on the tongue. And you can see that the tongues are turning blue
900
01:12:46.231 --> 01:12:47.890
Colleen Brady (she/her): from lack of blood flow.
901
01:12:50.990 --> 01:12:51.800
Kris Hiney: That's probably.
902
01:12:51.800 --> 01:12:54.819
Colleen Brady (she/her): If you, if you think that's okay.
903
01:12:55.870 --> 01:12:58.819
Colleen Brady (she/her): I would challenge you just to really think about.
904
01:12:58.820 --> 01:12:59.739
Kris Hiney: Why, that is.
905
01:12:59.740 --> 01:13:04.010
Colleen Brady (she/her): Why, that's okay. And if there's a way you could do things differently.
906
01:13:04.797 --> 01:13:06.740
Colleen Brady (she/her): Another big concern.
907
01:13:07.143 --> 01:13:12.600
Colleen Brady (she/her): In industries that use them is the tightness of nose bands or cavessons.
908
01:13:13.403 --> 01:13:16.319
Colleen Brady (she/her): Where cavessons are so tight
909
01:13:16.450 --> 01:13:28.260
Colleen Brady (she/her): that the old Pony club or 4-H 2 fingers. You can't even get a slip of paper underneath them. They're so tight that they're causing micro fractures. In the nasal bones.
910
01:13:28.330 --> 01:13:41.230
Colleen Brady (she/her): Part of that is to try to keep the mouth shut so that you can't see the blue tongue, or, you know, horses show a lot of their stress and distress through the mouth. And so if the horse is distressed
911
01:13:41.620 --> 01:13:53.200
Colleen Brady (she/her): and they're really active in their mouth. Some people choose to say, well, I'll just put the cavesson in so tight you can't open your mouth. I would challenge people to say.
912
01:13:54.030 --> 01:13:55.640
Colleen Brady (she/her): Let's figure out
913
01:13:56.020 --> 01:14:03.810
Colleen Brady (she/her): why the horse is expressing stress in this way, and whether I can do something different in order to actually
914
01:14:03.930 --> 01:14:14.360
Colleen Brady (she/her): still try to get towards my goal. But would a bit change work? Am I using my hands too much? Am I doing this, you know. Is there something pinching something that's not that's not comfortable. Do we need to
915
01:14:14.530 --> 01:14:18.279
Colleen Brady (she/her): step back a couple of steps, and maybe the horse isn't quite ready for
916
01:14:18.340 --> 01:14:25.940
Colleen Brady (she/her): that particular movement, or skill, or whatever at this time is whether we can find different ways to
917
01:14:26.840 --> 01:14:32.939
Colleen Brady (she/her): to figure out how to do that. I think everybody needs to take their own responsibility
918
01:14:33.400 --> 01:14:35.749
Colleen Brady (she/her): for the horses that are in their care
919
01:14:35.940 --> 01:14:37.146
Colleen Brady (she/her): and control.
920
01:14:38.740 --> 01:14:46.579
Colleen Brady (she/her): we hear a lot about blaming the judges. Well, if the judges didn't award this horse or that horse or the other horse, then it would go away.
921
01:14:46.990 --> 01:14:47.840
Colleen Brady (she/her): Well.
922
01:14:48.060 --> 01:14:49.920
Colleen Brady (she/her): judges can only judge
923
01:14:50.410 --> 01:14:52.259
Colleen Brady (she/her): what they're presented with.
924
01:14:52.410 --> 01:14:56.090
Colleen Brady (she/her): and if they're not presented with horses that aren't showing
925
01:14:56.340 --> 01:15:00.370
Colleen Brady (she/her): distress, it's hard for them to PIN horses that aren't showing distress.
926
01:15:00.981 --> 01:15:08.549
Colleen Brady (she/her): And I just think that that gets back to this idea of how we rationalize our own behaviors. And we need to start 1st
927
01:15:08.942 --> 01:15:13.850
Colleen Brady (she/her): by looking at ourselves, and how we're interacting with the horses that we have care and control over.
928
01:15:14.020 --> 01:15:35.240
Kris Hiney: So we're gonna do a shameless plug now. Because you were talking about you know how horses show their stress. And so you and I are one of the co-creators of a course that we developed. That was an online course that's entitled RAiSE, which is recognizing affective states in equine. And the whole point
929
01:15:35.320 --> 01:15:44.530
Kris Hiney: of that course, right is trying to educate people on being better able to recognize the emotional state of the horse.
930
01:15:46.290 --> 01:15:46.900
Colleen Brady (she/her): Right.
931
01:15:47.170 --> 01:16:03.859
Kris Hiney: And ultimately, if we're better at recognizing that theoretically right that we're going to try to use practices that promote more of a positive affect than a negative affect. But really making you think about kind of that whole life of the horse, and
932
01:16:03.980 --> 01:16:09.229
Kris Hiney: is what you're doing, causing undue frustration, stress, anxiety.
933
01:16:10.810 --> 01:16:13.879
Colleen Brady (she/her): And then are there different ways, I mean, and to me it's not.
934
01:16:14.280 --> 01:16:17.420
Colleen Brady (she/her): you know, if strategy A
935
01:16:17.710 --> 01:16:24.079
Colleen Brady (she/her): is causing undue stress and anxiety. Well, that's not a good learning environment for the horse.
936
01:16:24.390 --> 01:16:27.219
Colleen Brady (she/her): nor is it a good learning environment for us.
937
01:16:27.340 --> 01:16:36.580
Colleen Brady (she/her): So I then I think it's just a matter of exploring. Well, what are other ways that we can try to teach this? Are there other approaches we can
938
01:16:36.650 --> 01:16:38.390
Colleen Brady (she/her): take? It's not that.
939
01:16:38.600 --> 01:16:46.180
Colleen Brady (she/her): Oh, this is causing this horse stress or anxiety. So now we can't do that. We can't teach them a flying lead change, because it's causing stress and anxiety.
940
01:16:46.440 --> 01:16:58.440
Colleen Brady (she/her): No, let's let's not say that. Let's say, okay, let's figure out, do we need to take a different approach for this particular horse. And you know, and maybe that method worked great for 8 out of 9 horses.
941
01:16:58.440 --> 01:16:59.490
Kris Hiney: But.
942
01:16:59.490 --> 01:17:03.409
Colleen Brady (she/her): You know, this might be horse number 10, that cause they're all individual, too.
943
01:17:04.038 --> 01:17:06.590
Colleen Brady (she/her): And then another thing you know, back to
944
01:17:06.600 --> 01:17:10.130
Colleen Brady (she/her): this is kind of me getting on. One of my soap boxes, too.
945
01:17:10.430 --> 01:17:15.360
Colleen Brady (she/her): is, I think, as a person that's a horse owner. I think horse owners
946
01:17:15.610 --> 01:17:20.139
Colleen Brady (she/her): sometimes, especially owners that have horses with trainers
947
01:17:20.200 --> 01:17:29.309
Colleen Brady (she/her): get a little bit more of a pass on some of this than they should, because the trainers are the ones that take all the heat. This
948
01:17:29.680 --> 01:17:31.070
Colleen Brady (she/her): Olympic rider.
949
01:17:31.900 --> 01:17:35.269
Colleen Brady (she/her): you know she has been crucified.
950
01:17:37.090 --> 01:17:38.930
Colleen Brady (she/her): for that video.
951
01:17:40.000 --> 01:17:41.030
Colleen Brady (she/her): But
952
01:17:42.120 --> 01:17:44.560
Colleen Brady (she/her): there was an owner shooting the video
953
01:17:45.140 --> 01:17:45.860
Colleen Brady (she/her): that
954
01:17:46.230 --> 01:17:47.520
Colleen Brady (she/her): didn't stop it.
955
01:17:48.500 --> 01:17:50.629
Colleen Brady (she/her): There was a rider on the horse
956
01:17:51.090 --> 01:17:57.129
Colleen Brady (she/her): now granted. In this situation. The writer was a young person so to expect a young person to do that. To know is probably not practical.
957
01:17:57.760 --> 01:18:02.170
Colleen Brady (she/her): but as owners, too. If we're putting our horses in training with people.
958
01:18:02.460 --> 01:18:03.490
Colleen Brady (she/her): you know.
959
01:18:03.730 --> 01:18:05.260
Colleen Brady (she/her): we have the
960
01:18:05.900 --> 01:18:07.110
Colleen Brady (she/her): power.
961
01:18:07.710 --> 01:18:11.640
Colleen Brady (she/her): Actually to say, if you're doing things that I don't think
962
01:18:13.430 --> 01:18:18.280
Colleen Brady (she/her): are okay, that you don't have social license with me to do that.
963
01:18:18.500 --> 01:18:26.110
Colleen Brady (she/her): Then I, as the owner, you ultimately have the responsibility or the opportunity to make a change by saying.
964
01:18:27.010 --> 01:18:28.810
Colleen Brady (she/her): I'm going to.
965
01:18:29.050 --> 01:18:32.839
Colleen Brady (she/her): you know. Take this horse out of that barn and put it in a different barn, where?
966
01:18:33.526 --> 01:18:34.990
Colleen Brady (she/her): I feel more comfortable.
967
01:18:35.240 --> 01:18:37.500
Colleen Brady (she/her): If, as an owner.
968
01:18:38.030 --> 01:18:46.319
Colleen Brady (she/her): you, you decide that it's more important to you to stay with Trainer a. Because you believe that will make you more competitive.
969
01:18:46.360 --> 01:18:50.859
Colleen Brady (she/her): and that you might reach your competitive goals. Then you need to own that
970
01:18:52.260 --> 01:18:55.789
Colleen Brady (she/her): and accept that. Then you're part of
971
01:18:56.110 --> 01:18:58.593
Colleen Brady (she/her): what that horse is
972
01:18:59.170 --> 01:19:00.590
Colleen Brady (she/her): experiencing
973
01:19:02.100 --> 01:19:04.629
Colleen Brady (she/her): in in a training or competition
974
01:19:04.930 --> 01:19:11.059
Colleen Brady (she/her): scenario and not just say, well, I can't do anything about it, because that's what the trainer does. Well.
975
01:19:11.530 --> 01:19:14.000
Colleen Brady (she/her): the owner ultimately
976
01:19:14.960 --> 01:19:19.950
Colleen Brady (she/her): has control, because you can't. You decide who has care, custody, and control of your horse.
977
01:19:19.950 --> 01:19:31.199
Kris Hiney: Right. And I think you know, you're using that example of the flying lead change. And is the horse gonna get frustrated? Probably. So because this is a hard thing for a lot of horses. But in my head, like.
978
01:19:31.340 --> 01:19:41.529
Kris Hiney: Okay, let's say the horse kicks out at a flying lead change. Well, is it crucified for it? Do you back up and do some review? Does the horse kick out at every lead change like you might expect it to happen
979
01:19:41.540 --> 01:19:51.680
Kris Hiney: once. But then, what is the reaction? And what does it look like going forward? Right? So I think you know what we're doing as educators is trying to say. You know, we're not saying the horse should have
980
01:19:52.370 --> 01:20:01.070
Kris Hiney: 100% of his life. No discomfort ever right, but because that's not probably realistic. But it's
981
01:20:01.220 --> 01:20:12.240
Kris Hiney: how frequent, how intense, what happens afterwards, which I think that's our job, right is to monitor and put that into context to say, Okay, this is should be happening or shouldn't be happening.
982
01:20:12.970 --> 01:20:16.169
Colleen Brady (she/her): I think frequency and duration are really important.
983
01:20:16.190 --> 01:20:21.900
Colleen Brady (she/her): And again, and and that's part of why I like the client and lead change example, too, because there are
984
01:20:22.480 --> 01:20:26.039
Colleen Brady (she/her): so many different ways to teach a horse flying lead changes
985
01:20:26.410 --> 01:20:27.389
Colleen Brady (she/her): that if
986
01:20:27.790 --> 01:20:34.129
Colleen Brady (she/her): if one particular strategy isn't working for this particular horse, you know. Change it up, try something different.
987
01:20:35.250 --> 01:20:36.489
Colleen Brady (she/her): Try something different.
988
01:20:36.920 --> 01:20:37.959
Colleen Brady (she/her): you know
989
01:20:39.030 --> 01:20:42.579
Colleen Brady (she/her): and see if something else makes more sense.
990
01:20:43.330 --> 01:20:49.899
Colleen Brady (she/her): And then and this is some of one of my favorite riding instruct instructors, clinicians that I've ridden with
991
01:20:50.170 --> 01:20:55.339
Colleen Brady (she/her): always says, too, when the horse isn't doing what I want it to do? She says. Look 1st to your self.
992
01:20:56.520 --> 01:20:57.849
Colleen Brady (she/her): and what am I doing?
993
01:20:57.860 --> 01:20:59.369
Colleen Brady (she/her): Is my position
994
01:20:59.430 --> 01:21:05.099
Colleen Brady (she/her): correct? Is my position where it needs to be? Am I being clear in the way I'm communicating
995
01:21:05.240 --> 01:21:06.610
Colleen Brady (she/her): to the horse
996
01:21:06.950 --> 01:21:09.230
Colleen Brady (she/her): what I'm asking the horse to do
997
01:21:09.370 --> 01:21:12.100
Colleen Brady (she/her): do I know that the horse actually
998
01:21:12.350 --> 01:21:14.799
Colleen Brady (she/her): knows the skill that I'm asking.
999
01:21:14.840 --> 01:21:17.920
Colleen Brady (she/her): I have a new 5 year old horse I got in the end of June
1000
01:21:18.300 --> 01:21:19.800
Colleen Brady (she/her): if I would get on him
1001
01:21:20.320 --> 01:21:25.680
Colleen Brady (she/her): to. When I go out to the barn and ride this evening and ask them to do a flying lead change. The horses never
1002
01:21:25.960 --> 01:21:28.460
Colleen Brady (she/her): learned how to do a flying lead change under saddle.
1003
01:21:28.530 --> 01:21:32.420
Colleen Brady (she/her): He's athletic enough. He can do a flying lead change galloping across the field, but
1004
01:21:32.770 --> 01:21:40.390
Colleen Brady (she/her): to know it on cue he doesn't know that. So to expect him to do something that I haven't
1005
01:21:40.490 --> 01:21:43.510
Colleen Brady (she/her): or somebody hasn't trained him to do is
1006
01:21:43.660 --> 01:21:45.360
Colleen Brady (she/her): an unfair expectation.
1007
01:21:45.540 --> 01:21:46.150
Kris Hiney: Right?
1008
01:21:46.900 --> 01:22:11.286
Kris Hiney: Well, I think this has been a great conversation. And I am gonna plug back on our course. So if people are interested, we'll put a link to the course in the show notes. It's actually, we think it's really well done. The 2 of us and everybody else that participated with it. So it's kind of a, it's an online interactive module. It's 5 hours. Actually, there's quite a bit of content. By the time you get through it. But
1009
01:22:11.650 --> 01:22:28.630
Kris Hiney: really helps owners understand and hopefully appreciate the importance of that affective state or emotions in their horse and recognizing when it's really going south. That's the type of thing that's going to lose right? Our social license to operate.
1010
01:22:31.370 --> 01:22:32.800
Colleen Brady (she/her): Well, thank you very much.
1011
01:22:32.800 --> 01:22:55.659
Kris Hiney: Yeah, this has been great. So really appreciate your time and again we will put any information. Such as the link to the course in the show notes. You certainly can contact us as well at extension horses@gmail.com. You can even drop me a personal email, khiney@okstate.edu, if you have interest in these topics we've been talking about.
1012
01:22:55.660 --> 01:23:02.969
Kris Hiney: So thanks again, Dr. Brady. And this has been another episode of our tack box talk for stories with a purpose.