Tack Box Talk

Social License to Operate: The Story of keeping the horse industry in society's good graces

Kris Hiney, Colleen Brady Season 6 Episode 138

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Dr. Colleen Brady, from Purdue University and researcher in show horse welfare discusses how the concept of social license to operate applies to the horse world. We discuss the reaction on social media to some of the more controversial events or videos that have been making the rounds!  

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 Questions? khiney@okstate.edu



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Kris Hiney: Welcome to extension horses, Tack Box Talk series, horse stories with a purpose. I'm your host, Dr. Kris Hiney, and today we're going to be talking about a topic that kind of is in the buzz of the media and the horse industry these days, and that is talking about social license to operate. So with me today is one of our returning guests, Dr. Colleen Brady, from Purdue University. So welcome back, colleen.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): Hello! Good to be back.

 

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Kris Hiney: And I know. Colleen, we talk about this quite a bit, just due to some of the work that we've been involved together, which we'll probably bring up later on in the show. But I know even some of our colleagues have got to testify in court about social license to operate. That was always very exciting. So I think probably what we should start with like any good, you know. Here we go. Here's a paper, a definition. So what is social license to operate?

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): Well, and that's a good question, Kris, to start with, because it it can kind of a little bit challenging to explain. So really, what it is

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): kind of a tacit agreement between society as a whole and a particular industry or activity. If society thinks that

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): activities okay, and whether it's okay for that

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): activity to operate. The terminology was actually 1st used a lot around mining and some other things, and whether it was okay with society that the impact some of the mining practices were having on the environment. So this is not a contractual agreement. And it's not a legislative agreement. It's more of a sense of whether society says, Yeah, this is okay, or society says, No, no, we think that's we think that's not acceptable.

 

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Kris Hiney: And how does society say? Is it? Is it? You know? Sometimes we talk about voting with your pocket books, or is it public outcry like which.

 

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Kris Hiney: how do you know when society changes their mind? Because this is evolving right? So my example I would give is like child labor. We were kind of like, yeah, maybe they should go to school instead. How do we know when?

 

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Kris Hiney: When us right? It's the Us. Society decides if something is okay or not.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): Well, and that brings up when you, when you talk about the US. Society, I think that brings up a really important point, and especially with an industry like the horse industry that's so broad and international and global. That every society may not actually even be the same, that there may be things that in the US. They say, Yeah, this is okay, or in the US. They say, No, this is not okay. And other countries are okay with. And an example, I think, about is actually

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): horse slaughter.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): because in the US that definitely is not

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): something that has social license to operate

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): and in other countries and other parts of the world. Slaughtering for horses, for human consumption or for use in other ways is.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): is completely accepted within their societies. So there's a lot of different things, including culture and tradition. That can impact this social license to operate.

 

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Kris Hiney: Right? And so

 

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Kris Hiney: so, whether we culturally, because we could argue, nobody eats horses here, but they do in other countries, right? And it's just your kind of

 

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Kris Hiney: what is considered cultural norm. So how do you follow

 

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Kris Hiney: when something changes? Because what we're going to be talking about? The horse industry is maybe a

 

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Kris Hiney: a shift in perception or concern over a loss of social license to operate. So how do you know

 

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Kris Hiney: if it, if it changes it really like? How many likes on Facebook, or how many like news articles are like, how do we monitor that.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): Well, it's a lot of different things you can look at ultimately, kind of the final loss of social license would actually be legislation that says this activity.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): is no longer allowed.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): An example. Again, in the US. That could be related is greyhound racing. There used to be lots of locations in the United States where greyhound racing was legal.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): And

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): at this juncture, I don't believe there's any left. They've actually been phasing out of the over the last several years. The last greyhound tracks to close were

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): in Florida, and I believe at this time that those actually are now closed. And that's legislative.

 

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Kris Hiney: So they.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): And.

 

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Kris Hiney: Legislators get. The push from the public, then, is what happened.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): Right.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): which is, which is in effect what happened with

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): with even with the slaughter plants. That closed in the US when there were 2

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): is and it's not that there was actually any legislation that ended up saying the plants must close.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): It was. There's legislation that said

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): the Federal plants must have USDA inspectors, and the funding for the inspectors

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): was not

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): renewed. And so then, if you can't have Federal inspectors at a Federal plant. Then you can't do the activity. But in effect, that's how that was legislatively

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): closed. How does this happen? You know that's again an evolving way.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): Obviously, social media. Has a big role in forming opinions and changing opinions and informing what people think about all kinds

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): of things. Activist groups

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): that often have specific agendas. And there are a lot of activist groups around the whole space of animal welfare not just exclusively around horses. But horses definitely are our target. The horse industry is definitely a target industry for some of those.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): Some of those groups that have really strong beliefs about what is and is not okay

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): to do with animals.

 

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Kris Hiney: So I want to get into some of what we as the I guess academia, and industry advocates are

 

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Kris Hiney: talking about, we need to be concerned. And I think as an industry, or this happens a lot, right? So when an industry is under attack, they tend to just

 

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Kris Hiney: close ranks and say, you just don't understand right? I think that's a pretty common thing, but that doesn't work right. So closing ranks and saying, No, no, we're fine. Leave us alone is not an effective

 

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Kris Hiney: or viable strategy. When, when that social license is under threat, correct.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): Right. And that's actually one. When you asked about kind of as the process proceeds, as you move towards losing

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): social license, one of the things that does happen is when

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): you lose the faith in from the public that the industry can regulate itself.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): And they're just like, you know what we don't think you're doing a very good job regulating yourself. We think somebody else.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): or there needs to be another oversight group, because you have demonstrated to us that you're

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): not fulfilling our expectations. And that's when you start seeing things

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): kind of move towards that, that risk of losing that social license.

 

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Kris Hiney: So let's go ahead and get into the ugly, and we might offend some people. So maybe I should. What is this? The trigger warning. If we're talking about your group like, I mean, if we're talking about your group, you need to sometimes do some self reflection which we talk about a lot. So we'll do that.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): And just.

 

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Kris Hiney: Oh, go ahead!

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): I. And I just want to add to when and we'll talk about some examples. And you're a hundred percent right about self reflection.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): And the thing I always tell students when we talk about these issues, too, is

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): is, I think, as an industry. If we get into a situation where we're pointing fingers at other parts of the industry and saying, Well, it's a that part of the industry problem. It's that part of the industry problem. We're actually doing a disservice to the whole industry. This is actually a human behavior issue.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): The things that create concerns the horses.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): are probably what people get worried about. But the humans are the same, and the drivers of the human behaviors that people have concerns about

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): are probably the same drivers, no matter what component of the industry

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): they're involved in.

 

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Kris Hiney: Cause we're gonna be talking. You know, when we talk about horses largely, we're gonna be talking about sport

 

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Kris Hiney: right? And we do know that once sport

 

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Kris Hiney: is a thing right? Once there's competition, there's

 

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Kris Hiney: unfortunately always going to be some element that does things that

 

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Kris Hiney: end up needing regulations, right. So whether it's gymnasts or baseball, or like something is going to need to be ultimately regulated at some point in time.

 

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Kris Hiney: Guess it is right. I mean, I we can just keep talking about it's like football and head injuries, you know. Or you know, young kids playing contact sports is that losing social license to operate. So there's a lot of examples in our society that I think people could think about like, Oh, our our standards and mores changed with

 

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Kris Hiney: changing values, changing knowledge, etc.

 

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Kris Hiney: Alright. You ready to talk horses.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): Yeah, well, and just one other thing, too, on that point, too, and at least relative to horses. The social license tends to be a much bigger issue with

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): more affluent countries and in more affluent societies, and where the concerns are often wrapped around sport and competition, and the uses of horses

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): in, in sport and competition less so.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): Then, you see, in countries where horses are still, used primarily

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): as part of a livelihood, or as or as working horses. When you, when you start seeing the concerns about social license, it does not tend to be in those countries.

 

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Kris Hiney: No, no, not when it's day to day subsistence like. And so we're not talking about working donkeys or working equids here. So this is.

 

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Kris Hiney: you know, I guess, horses that have the luxury of higher standards

 

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Kris Hiney: of care. I mean, we could largely say that that a lot of times the

 

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Kris Hiney: the standard of

 

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Kris Hiney: care. Maybe

 

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Kris Hiney: Hi, or maybe we could even get to what that means, because there's a lot of pieces into this about, you know what constitutes. If the horse is being cared for, well or not, or handled correctly or not correctly?

 

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Kris Hiney: Alright, I'm still trying to get us there. We're ready to jump off and start offending people right.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): Yeah, let's do it.

 

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Kris Hiney: Here we go alright. So the easy one to pick on because it comes up right is the race horses

 

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Kris Hiney: and part of that is, they're televised, and big events and big names with recognition that have come afoul. So why don't you talk to me a little bit about

 

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Kris Hiney: race horses.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): So yeah, the racehorses have been racing

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): has actually been a target.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): For several years, and probably until

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): the last 6 weeks or so. Probably got the most, especially in terms of social media. Traction

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): in terms of concerns. And they're basically in in a couple of primary categories.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): there are concerns about racing two-year-olds.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): and whether we should be racing 2 year olds. What?

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): A few years ago?

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): I probably should have written some of these numbers down.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): There was a situation at Santa Anita racetrack, where they had a

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): disproportionately high level of catastrophic injuries. Over one of their winter race meets, and

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): that generated a real concern about racing, and one of the things that people that are concerned about bring into. And this again, this isn't just racing. This is across all the competition.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): all horse sport

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): is, you know, whether horses even want to be doing what they're being asked to do. And is it okay?

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): 2.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): Ask a two-year-old to race against

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): 10 other 2 year olds or a 3 year old, or is it okay to ask

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): an event horse to go cross country? Or is it okay to ask a dressage horse to.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): you know, perform those maneuvers? Is it okay

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): to

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): ask a Western pleasure horse to do the class specifications?

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): and that's 1 of the big questions as you start looking at this, and people

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): perceive what they think is and is not okay, kind of through their own personal lens, which even some of the research, some of the my group, and I have done says that Lens is highly informed by what part of the horse industry they're engaged in.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): People tend to be pretty comfortable with things.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): And this is, people within. The industry tend to be pretty comfortable with things that are the norms in their industry.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): And they think, yes, that's okay. That's being considered of. Of what's the horse's needs are.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): and are much like more likely to be.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): judgmental of

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): practices that are in other industries that this you know, that that racing does that

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): that

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): stock horses do that sport horses? Do you know they were? We tend to point fingers at other industries much more than analyze our own segment of the industry.

 

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Kris Hiney: Right? Yeah, because all of those industries you just mentioned, you know whether it's stock horses with reining horses, or Arabians, or Saddlebreds, or walkers, or dressage horses or standard bread, like everybody. I think if you identify in a segment, you probably have opinions about somebody else's segment, right? Hey? We don't. We don't do that right. We don't do that to our halter horses, or we don't like.

 

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Kris Hiney: But

 

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Kris Hiney: oh, it's so hard right, because if we step back and say, What does this mean for the horse? Right? That's where you truly

 

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Kris Hiney: have to think about whether we're doing the right thing or not. But how do you not have your color perception

 

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Kris Hiney: already in place? Right? Because all of those years of all of our experiences shape

 

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Kris Hiney: what we believe is okay or not. Okay?

 

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Kris Hiney: And to throw this out, the public doesn't have those. Right? So they're looking at. Why did it die, or why is it unhappy like they are seeing it? I think, almost from a

 

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Kris Hiney: I could argue a better perspective, and a lot in the horse industry are like. No, their perception is wrong, because they don't understand.

 

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Kris Hiney: But

 

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Kris Hiney: does somebody, looking at something with clear eyes, have a better opinion than I'm just rambling now? I need to let you talk.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): No, but it's a good question. I mean, there's so many complicated things. I mean, how do we know?

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): And this is an area that there are researchers all across the world. Now, really looking at.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): how do we know what constitutes? And I'm air quoting here a good life?

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): For horses. The International Society of Equitation. Science is an international academic

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): organization.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): That

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): their last conference that was actually the conference theme was a good life

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): for horses, and all of the research that was presented was about, how do we even know

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): if the horse's what the horse's belief and perception is, what's the horse's experience, and how?

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): How can we learn better how to interpret

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): the messages the horse is sending us, and that even ties into the

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): the project that you kind of referenced earlier, that that we've been working on

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): is to develop some material for people to to learn how to assess the effective state or the emotional and mental.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): emotional and mental state of horses. And even within the Science Community.

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): looking at the emotional

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): and mental state as

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): a foundational part of identifying what is

 

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Colleen Brady (she/her): a good well-being or a good life is relatively new, I mean, in the last 10 to 15 years.

 

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Kris Hiney: And it. And it's hard, right? So this is not easy work. And and we'll we probably will talk specifically about the project in a little bit, but

 

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Kris Hiney: even recognize emotion in an animal like

 

544

00:41:49.180 --> 00:42:05.349

Kris Hiney: it takes it takes context right? Because, you know, exuberant bucking can be from a variety of reasons, right? And unless you're putting it into context, you don't know whether that's play behavior, pain, behavior, frustration, behavior. And I'm gonna

 

545

00:42:05.630 --> 00:42:27.949

Kris Hiney: you know, it's me. So there's probably gonna be a dog involved at some point in time. But like a lot of stress behaviors we see in dogs may show themselves as like, Oh, maybe that's just play behavior. But it's actually stress behavior, which is the same thing in horses. And so that one of the concepts that I wanted to pitch to you. You know you talked about a good life for the horse. Does the horse want to do it or not?

 

546

00:42:28.490 --> 00:42:30.149

Kris Hiney: Some of the more

 

547

00:42:30.580 --> 00:42:47.459

Kris Hiney: newer, I guess training styles of dogs is asking them, do you want to participate or not? So they talk about it as a start button behavior that the that the dog is actually opting in for the training session. And if they say no, not mood for it, you're supposed to not do it.

 

548

00:42:47.640 --> 00:42:54.180

Kris Hiney: That's completely not what we would talk about ever in horse industry. Right? Have you ever heard that talked about in the horse industry?

 

549

00:42:54.670 --> 00:42:55.290

Colleen Brady (she/her): No

 

550

00:42:55.810 --> 00:43:08.550

Colleen Brady (she/her): like. No, but what you hear more is like with use. The racehorse, you know. Horses love to run. They're born to run they love to, you know I don't. The segment that I'm most personally involved in in the industry is with

 

551

00:43:08.640 --> 00:43:12.490

Colleen Brady (she/her): dressage and eventing. I don't. I can't tell you

 

552

00:43:12.690 --> 00:43:17.369

Colleen Brady (she/her): how many people I've heard say. Oh, my horse just loves to jump. My horse just loves to jump.

 

553

00:43:18.710 --> 00:43:19.750

Colleen Brady (she/her): maybe.

 

554

00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:21.490

Colleen Brady (she/her): maybe.

 

555

00:43:22.160 --> 00:43:31.679

Colleen Brady (she/her): But if the horse was running free, and the jump was there very few horses? And yes, I've seen it happen. I've seen a horse actually

 

556

00:43:31.940 --> 00:43:35.319

Colleen Brady (she/her): in an arena or in a field where there's a jump, and they hop over the jump.

 

557

00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:47.820

Colleen Brady (she/her): but, generally speaking, they're going to want to probably go around instead of over the top, so. But then, how much of that is necessary? I think that also becomes

 

558

00:43:47.970 --> 00:43:54.940

Colleen Brady (she/her): the question. And I think there's what so many more questions around this whole space right now than there are

 

559

00:43:55.130 --> 00:43:56.920

Colleen Brady (she/her): answers, because.

 

560

00:43:57.170 --> 00:44:03.519

Colleen Brady (she/her): on the other hand, as long as my horse is not in a bad mental state, even if

 

561

00:44:03.810 --> 00:44:07.940

Colleen Brady (she/her): jumping's not his favorite thing to do in the world. I'm only asking him to do that

 

562

00:44:08.990 --> 00:44:10.380

Colleen Brady (she/her): 30 minutes.

 

563

00:44:10.450 --> 00:44:12.700

Colleen Brady (she/her): a couple times a week, maybe.

 

564

00:44:13.010 --> 00:44:14.490

Colleen Brady (she/her): and in exchange.

 

565

00:44:14.490 --> 00:44:15.570

Kris Hiney: contract, life, right.

 

566

00:44:15.570 --> 00:44:19.549

Colleen Brady (she/her): So the contractual. Is it a transactional agreement? You know I mean

 

567

00:44:20.290 --> 00:44:25.799

Colleen Brady (she/her): listeners out there. How many of you love every single aspect of your job.

 

568

00:44:26.020 --> 00:44:30.429

Colleen Brady (she/her): or every single aspect of your life. You know everything you do.

 

569

00:44:30.510 --> 00:44:32.450

Colleen Brady (she/her): I hate cleaning the house.

 

570

00:44:32.550 --> 00:44:33.520

Colleen Brady (she/her): I hate it.

 

571

00:44:34.500 --> 00:44:37.289

Colleen Brady (she/her): but I hate living in the dirty house more.

 

572

00:44:38.020 --> 00:44:40.990

Colleen Brady (she/her): So, you know, you know, what's the

 

573

00:44:41.110 --> 00:44:50.959

Colleen Brady (she/her): how? How do we? How do we figure out that that balance of what is okay and what's not right and not all stress

 

574

00:44:51.100 --> 00:44:52.290

Colleen Brady (she/her): is bad.

 

575

00:44:52.290 --> 00:45:03.650

Kris Hiney: Right? Otherwise, we're boredom and lethargy, and all that dullness like. If there's nothing right, if you experience no stress, you're probably not also living a good life either.

 

576

00:45:03.890 --> 00:45:10.029

Colleen Brady (she/her): Right. And then that creates a whole other set of issues that we know have a negative impact on well-being.

 

577

00:45:11.200 --> 00:45:15.989

Kris Hiney: So, and and I might have took us driving off the cliff there, because those are

 

578

00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:32.479

Kris Hiney: big questions, and I always wouldn't wonder. Would a horse ever choose to participate right? Because I never think of like the things that horses do, as probably as much fun as my dogs eating cookies and playing with toys and running fast like they love that. So they're like, yep do it some more right but it's

 

579

00:45:32.550 --> 00:45:41.930

Kris Hiney: but what we ask some horse. Some horses may right so. But how do we know right? How do we know if they're saying Yes, I want to do this.

 

580

00:45:41.950 --> 00:45:43.589

Kris Hiney: and if they are saying.

 

581

00:45:43.890 --> 00:45:45.540

Kris Hiney: No, I don't.

 

582

00:45:45.940 --> 00:45:48.350

Kris Hiney: When should we listen

 

583

00:45:48.730 --> 00:45:52.809

Kris Hiney: to when? A horse is saying, no, I don't want to do this.

 

584

00:45:54.670 --> 00:45:56.969

Colleen Brady (she/her): That is the 10 million dollar question, doctor.

 

585

00:45:57.331 --> 00:46:05.280

Kris Hiney: Okay. So these are some of the maybe the philosophical decisions that we have to think about. But so getting back to

 

586

00:46:05.340 --> 00:46:13.290

Kris Hiney: when we're in danger of losing social license to operate. So you talk about the breakdowns like the public doesn't want to see horses dying

 

587

00:46:13.670 --> 00:46:20.960

Kris Hiney: right for sport. I would agree that that is a bit. That's that's an easy one for people to say like.

 

588

00:46:21.470 --> 00:46:26.759

Kris Hiney: Oh, I don't think that's okay. Right? So what X amount of animals are supposed to die.

 

589

00:46:26.800 --> 00:46:29.149

Kris Hiney: that that's a tough one, right?

 

590

00:46:29.300 --> 00:46:49.770

Kris Hiney: And then the other piece of that which you kind of talked about, or maybe didn't like that. We had all those drug things come up. Which then the public is probably saying, you're cheating, right? So that's a whole other story is cheating. Okay, generally, we don't think cheating is okay.

 

591

00:46:50.210 --> 00:46:57.600

Kris Hiney: right? Olympics and all that. And so is cheating. Okay? Especially then if you're putting chemicals in an animal.

 

592

00:46:58.360 --> 00:47:06.209

Colleen Brady (she/her): Well, and I think that's another place, too, that and you'd mentioned earlier. And again, I'll probably keep saying this throughout

 

593

00:47:06.560 --> 00:47:13.509

Colleen Brady (she/her): most of these issues are human behavior issues being expressed through the way horses are

 

594

00:47:13.850 --> 00:47:15.360

Colleen Brady (she/her): trained, managed.

 

595

00:47:15.500 --> 00:47:16.770

Colleen Brady (she/her): or competed.

 

596

00:47:17.815 --> 00:47:18.770

Colleen Brady (she/her): Because

 

597

00:47:19.030 --> 00:47:20.170

Colleen Brady (she/her): to

 

598

00:47:22.630 --> 00:47:29.779

Colleen Brady (she/her): use medication in order to have a competitive advantage. That's not something that a horse would ever push the start button on.

 

599

00:47:30.900 --> 00:47:35.283

Colleen Brady (she/her): You know, that's a human decision.

 

600

00:47:36.390 --> 00:47:37.570

Colleen Brady (she/her): to do that.

 

601

00:47:37.660 --> 00:47:45.870

Colleen Brady (she/her): And you know we have regulations in place. Every competitive industry has regulations in in place and spends

 

602

00:47:46.410 --> 00:47:52.409

Colleen Brady (she/her): 1 million literally millions of dollars across the industry trying to

 

603

00:47:52.750 --> 00:47:58.669

Colleen Brady (she/her): maintain that level playing field and say, we know that everybody out here is competing

 

604

00:48:00.330 --> 00:48:09.790

Colleen Brady (she/her): in a similar physiological space, you know. And that's part of where the protection for the horses are is coming into that that horses aren't on

 

605

00:48:09.950 --> 00:48:17.990

Colleen Brady (she/her): medication that's going to mask pain or mask discomfort, or make it

 

606

00:48:18.170 --> 00:48:24.600

Colleen Brady (she/her): more likely for them to actually overextend themselves, or do more than they really are physically

 

607

00:48:25.200 --> 00:48:33.059

Colleen Brady (she/her): capable of doing. But that's definitely an inability for an industry to regulate. That

 

608

00:48:33.100 --> 00:48:37.440

Colleen Brady (she/her): is definitely something that does chip away at that social license.

 

609

00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:37.930

Kris Hiney: But.

 

610

00:48:37.930 --> 00:48:42.239

Colleen Brady (she/her): Because the general public and the general public understands

 

611

00:48:42.300 --> 00:48:44.150

Colleen Brady (she/her): performance enhancing drugs

 

612

00:48:44.920 --> 00:48:46.300

Colleen Brady (she/her): from human sport.

 

613

00:48:46.420 --> 00:48:50.860

Colleen Brady (she/her): even if they have nothing. No real familiarity with

 

614

00:48:50.940 --> 00:48:52.360

Colleen Brady (she/her): animal sport.

 

615

00:48:53.600 --> 00:48:57.530

Colleen Brady (she/her): most have familiarity with human sport.

 

616

00:48:57.690 --> 00:49:05.210

Colleen Brady (she/her): you know, of some sort or another, and in in almost all human sport, you know the use of performance enhancing drugs is.

 

617

00:49:05.320 --> 00:49:11.820

Colleen Brady (she/her): you know, it's damaged, the social license not rescinded, but damaged the social license to operate

 

618

00:49:11.920 --> 00:49:23.620

Colleen Brady (she/her): even in a sport as popular as baseball. When you know baseball. I remember at a time in my life when baseball was like one of the most popular states in the or sports in the country. It was

 

619

00:49:24.230 --> 00:49:27.829

Colleen Brady (she/her): and they went through a huge PED scandal.

 

620

00:49:28.130 --> 00:49:33.970

Colleen Brady (she/her): And I think if you looked at the data of how many people watch baseball or engaged in baseball.

 

621

00:49:34.110 --> 00:49:37.570

Colleen Brady (she/her): It's never recovered its popularity from

 

622

00:49:37.960 --> 00:49:41.059

Colleen Brady (she/her): Mark Mcguire and Barry Bonds and

 

623

00:49:41.330 --> 00:49:44.729

Colleen Brady (she/her): Sammy Sosa. You know, when they were out there

 

624

00:49:45.609 --> 00:49:49.919

Colleen Brady (she/her): performing at an incredibly high level, but very clearly.

 

625

00:49:50.560 --> 00:49:54.639

Colleen Brady (she/her): And we now know were were using performance enhancing drugs to do that.

 

626

00:49:54.640 --> 00:50:02.190

Kris Hiney: Yeah. And I would say, the viewing population that wants to watch races, or, you know, horse races has gone down to because of

 

627

00:50:02.200 --> 00:50:12.589

Kris Hiney: fatalities and drug scandals, right? Because people aren't in like, if you're like a bunch of crooks, sorry racehorse people. But I mean, if that's what's being seen by the public.

 

628

00:50:12.810 --> 00:50:14.130

Kris Hiney: That's a problem.

 

629

00:50:15.080 --> 00:50:21.999

Colleen Brady (she/her): And that's something, too, that I think is an interesting thing internationally, because definitely, especially in

 

630

00:50:22.040 --> 00:50:33.869

Colleen Brady (she/her): not especially in the US. But you know, a huge driver of what ends up on television in the US. Is, you know, sponsored dollars advertising dollars. Who's watching? You know how many eyes are on it.

 

631

00:50:34.140 --> 00:50:37.509

Colleen Brady (she/her): and there's only a small handful of races

 

632

00:50:37.650 --> 00:50:42.910

Colleen Brady (she/her): that we see live here in the Us. Or any horse sports honestly.

 

633

00:50:43.060 --> 00:50:49.070

Colleen Brady (she/her): But then you go to some other countries. I mean, if you go to Ireland or the UK.

 

634

00:50:49.400 --> 00:50:51.909

Colleen Brady (she/her): you know you walk into any sports bar.

 

635

00:50:52.100 --> 00:50:57.619

Colleen Brady (she/her): and you know a couple of screens will have horse racing on them. A couple of screens will have soccer on them.

 

636

00:50:57.720 --> 00:51:01.280

Colleen Brady (she/her): you know, and you see horse sport much more

 

637

00:51:01.310 --> 00:51:04.310

Colleen Brady (she/her): at a forefront in front of

 

638

00:51:05.890 --> 00:51:09.049

Colleen Brady (she/her): televised in front of the public eye. Then you see.

 

639

00:51:09.290 --> 00:51:12.753

Colleen Brady (she/her): when you see here in the in the United States

 

640

00:51:13.420 --> 00:51:23.369

Colleen Brady (she/her): and so then that does to get back to what you're saying. And so then that puts even more pressure on these half a dozen races a year that might be televised that if something

 

641

00:51:24.210 --> 00:51:27.619

Colleen Brady (she/her): happens, that is the impression

 

642

00:51:27.690 --> 00:51:30.750

Colleen Brady (she/her): that those people that only watch the Kentucky Derby

 

643

00:51:30.860 --> 00:51:34.489

Colleen Brady (she/her): have about horse racing, because that's the only race they watch all year.

 

644

00:51:34.600 --> 00:51:35.380

Colleen Brady (she/her): Yep.

 

645

00:51:35.380 --> 00:51:40.530

Kris Hiney: Yeah, so it's much more impactful. And again you said, there's cultural norms, too, over like

 

646

00:51:40.889 --> 00:51:52.580

Kris Hiney: how everybody interprets things. So I wanna cause. I don't want to just pick on racehorses. And this the idea of doing this podcast actually came about because of the Olympics because there was a bit of a

 

647

00:51:52.850 --> 00:52:11.900

Kris Hiney: a kerfluffle which I'll let you describe over one of the rather famous Olympians. So and I'm sure, after we talk about this, everybody's going to go youtubing. But I don't know if you want to name names or not. But why don't you tell us what's going on? And why, this really

 

648

00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:15.470

Kris Hiney: is sort of a social license to operate conversation.

 

649

00:52:16.020 --> 00:52:17.366

Colleen Brady (she/her): So well.

 

650

00:52:18.660 --> 00:52:24.300

Colleen Brady (she/her): There are no secrets with social media out there. So any of you listeners that

 

651

00:52:24.510 --> 00:52:29.756

Colleen Brady (she/her): follow the Olympic sports at all, I am sure, are already familiar with.

 

652

00:52:30.390 --> 00:52:35.790

Colleen Brady (she/her): the video that came out just a few days prior to

 

653

00:52:35.950 --> 00:52:38.530

Colleen Brady (she/her): the start of the equestrian events

 

654

00:52:38.780 --> 00:52:39.585

Colleen Brady (she/her): at

 

655

00:52:40.750 --> 00:52:47.950

Colleen Brady (she/her): at the Olympics this year in 2024 of a multi-time gold medalist, Charlotte Dujardin.

 

656

00:52:48.545 --> 00:52:52.510

Colleen Brady (she/her): Giving a lesson and using a lunge whip

 

657

00:52:52.760 --> 00:52:55.440

Colleen Brady (she/her): and striking the horse

 

658

00:52:55.850 --> 00:53:00.809

Colleen Brady (she/her): many, many, many times. As they're trying to move. Get this horse to go

 

659

00:53:01.580 --> 00:53:05.099

Colleen Brady (she/her): to go forward. There was some language.

 

660

00:53:05.860 --> 00:53:11.880

Colleen Brady (she/her): If you want to see what the language is. You can watch the video. I'm sure it's got a million one hits on

 

661

00:53:12.010 --> 00:53:19.699

Colleen Brady (she/her): on Youtube, and it created it created a huge a huge uproar in part.

 

662

00:53:20.130 --> 00:53:24.000

Colleen Brady (she/her): because Ms. Dujardain had always been.

 

663

00:53:24.790 --> 00:53:29.350

Colleen Brady (she/her): had a very strong reputation as being a person who did things the right way.

 

664

00:53:30.319 --> 00:53:34.810

Colleen Brady (she/her): Who did things with horse well-being as a high priority.

 

665

00:53:35.436 --> 00:53:39.089

Colleen Brady (she/her): She's well known as one of the 1st

 

666

00:53:39.776 --> 00:53:41.743

Colleen Brady (she/her): Elite riders to

 

667

00:53:42.450 --> 00:53:45.549

Colleen Brady (she/her): compete at the elite level, wearing a riding helmet

 

668

00:53:45.720 --> 00:53:56.579

Colleen Brady (she/her): which was just as foreign in dressage at that time as it would be for somebody in Western pleasure to go in a Western pleasure class voluntarily

 

669

00:53:56.690 --> 00:54:01.719

Colleen Brady (she/her): wearing a helmet. She's been well documented as

 

670

00:54:01.740 --> 00:54:06.709

Colleen Brady (she/her): a person who puts a high priority on horses, having turnout

 

671

00:54:06.760 --> 00:54:09.720

Colleen Brady (she/her): with other horses and with their buddies

 

672

00:54:10.090 --> 00:54:16.359

Colleen Brady (she/her): and them having an opportunity to be horses, and to not spend all the time drilling in the arena.

 

673

00:54:16.709 --> 00:54:19.040

Colleen Brady (she/her): To go out on hacks, and to you know

 

674

00:54:19.060 --> 00:54:22.390

Colleen Brady (she/her): all the things that everybody who says.

 

675

00:54:22.390 --> 00:54:23.180

Kris Hiney: Right.

 

676

00:54:23.420 --> 00:54:26.740

Colleen Brady (she/her): These are the things that make a good life for horses do

 

677

00:54:28.300 --> 00:54:32.120

Colleen Brady (she/her): And then this video comes out that

 

678

00:54:32.310 --> 00:54:36.419

Colleen Brady (she/her): overwhelmingly shows

 

679

00:54:36.650 --> 00:54:40.290

Colleen Brady (she/her): a different side of her training strategies.

 

680

00:54:40.790 --> 00:54:47.040

Colleen Brady (she/her): And so I think a part of the shock was actually the person because of the

 

681

00:54:47.130 --> 00:54:51.049

Colleen Brady (she/her): of the image that that she had

 

682

00:54:52.490 --> 00:54:55.170

Colleen Brady (she/her): and so she

 

683

00:54:55.850 --> 00:55:04.259

Colleen Brady (she/her): Announced her withdrawal. She's been suspended by the FEI. I she withdrew from the Olympics. The British team sent the alternate

 

684

00:55:05.150 --> 00:55:12.630

Colleen Brady (she/her): instead. And it put even more pressure on the equestrian events at the Olympics as a whole.

 

685

00:55:12.690 --> 00:55:18.070

Colleen Brady (she/her): to demonstrate that these horses, at this elite level of competition.

 

686

00:55:19.430 --> 00:55:26.300

Colleen Brady (she/her): were being treated correctly, their welfare was being kept in mind. And

 

687

00:55:26.930 --> 00:55:36.319

Colleen Brady (she/her): and although welfare has always been in, you know, as the things that we say. We're concerned about the Paris Olympics. And this predates. This was in place they were.

 

688

00:55:36.560 --> 00:55:37.440

Colleen Brady (she/her): you know.

 

689

00:55:38.325 --> 00:55:43.359

Colleen Brady (she/her): Talking about how important welfare was going to be, and these are going to be the horse welfare Olympics.

 

690

00:55:43.520 --> 00:55:51.939

Colleen Brady (she/her): far before the Charlotte Dujardin video came out. But there was actually a specific veterinarian who is in charge of

 

691

00:55:53.670 --> 00:55:56.950

Colleen Brady (she/her): in charge of observing for any welfare

 

692

00:55:57.930 --> 00:55:58.720

Colleen Brady (she/her): concerns

 

693

00:55:59.116 --> 00:56:12.110

Colleen Brady (she/her): at the Olympics, which again, although they've had the regular stewards and the judges, and all those other people that obviously, if they saw something, it was within their responsibility to to address the issue. This is the 1st Olympic event

 

694

00:56:12.130 --> 00:56:15.029

Colleen Brady (she/her): that it had basically a welfare officer

 

695

00:56:15.808 --> 00:56:18.279

Colleen Brady (she/her): there to to provide

 

696

00:56:18.500 --> 00:56:24.159

Colleen Brady (she/her): oversight. And all of these things that are happening are all comes back to this idea of social license

 

697

00:56:24.190 --> 00:56:27.190

Colleen Brady (she/her): to operate, and an awareness and a concern

 

698

00:56:27.220 --> 00:56:27.970

Colleen Brady (she/her): that

 

699

00:56:28.930 --> 00:56:40.899

Colleen Brady (she/her): that that might be eroding. And so the industry trying to look and say, what do we need to do to make sure that we're doing right by the horses, and that the people believe we're doing right by the horses.

 

700

00:56:40.900 --> 00:56:55.260

Kris Hiney: Right. So this was, you know, everybody in good faith, trying to do exactly the right thing to show that. Yes, the horses are taken care of and treated very correctly. And then this like secret footage, it wasn't really secret, but just

 

701

00:56:55.520 --> 00:56:56.680

Kris Hiney: the home barn.

 

702

00:56:56.680 --> 00:56:57.870

Colleen Brady (she/her): The bombshell.

 

703

00:56:59.420 --> 00:57:04.659

Kris Hiney: and I mean, I read, you know, we talked about this and read some of the comments and a lot of people were saying.

 

704

00:57:04.790 --> 00:57:09.559

Kris Hiney: you know, and by a lot, who knows how many it needs? But should horses be part of the Olympics?

 

705

00:57:11.100 --> 00:57:15.493

Colleen Brady (she/her): And that is there. There are. There's a lot of conversation

 

706

00:57:16.320 --> 00:57:24.040

Colleen Brady (she/her): about that, especially again on social media, because this is a space that I have a lot of interest in and do a lot of my research. I

 

707

00:57:24.330 --> 00:57:36.470

Colleen Brady (she/her): I guess I make that my excuse to read a lot of social media around this topic. And it's interesting to read through the comments, too, even things like this video. And I think.

 

708

00:57:36.530 --> 00:57:48.669

Colleen Brady (she/her): and I think this shows part of where this is. Such a challenge is. Is you go to some things you'll say. Oh, my gosh! That's the most awful thing I've ever seen, you know, relative to this video. But then you'll read comments that say.

 

709

00:57:49.740 --> 00:57:53.290

Colleen Brady (she/her): that's not that big a deal. I've seen people do far worse.

 

710

00:57:53.770 --> 00:57:59.359

Colleen Brady (she/her): And you know. And that's where, too, when we start talking about even as an industry, of how do we talk about this, and what

 

711

00:57:59.550 --> 00:58:03.829

Colleen Brady (she/her): the language to use. So this phrase.

 

712

00:58:04.290 --> 00:58:06.050

Colleen Brady (she/her): well, I've seen worse.

 

713

00:58:06.830 --> 00:58:08.430

Colleen Brady (she/her): That that doesn't mean that

 

714

00:58:08.580 --> 00:58:10.519

Colleen Brady (she/her): whatever this other thing is, isn't bad

 

715

00:58:11.640 --> 00:58:12.590

Colleen Brady (she/her): I don't. I think.

 

716

00:58:12.590 --> 00:58:13.090

Kris Hiney: That like.

 

717

00:58:13.090 --> 00:58:13.570

Colleen Brady (she/her): Really.

 

718

00:58:13.570 --> 00:58:16.575

Kris Hiney: This conversation I was like, well, it's not bleeding.

 

719

00:58:16.910 --> 00:58:22.397

Colleen Brady (she/her): You know, we we need to be really careful about using what the psychologists call

 

720

00:58:23.560 --> 00:58:25.350

Colleen Brady (she/her): advantageous comparison.

 

721

00:58:25.350 --> 00:58:26.240

Kris Hiney: Yeah, yeah.

 

722

00:58:26.240 --> 00:58:27.420

Colleen Brady (she/her): To say.

 

723

00:58:27.430 --> 00:58:30.670

Colleen Brady (she/her): and I think we need to set the bar a little higher than that.

 

724

00:58:30.670 --> 00:58:31.020

Kris Hiney: Yeah.

 

725

00:58:31.020 --> 00:58:36.459

Colleen Brady (she/her): Is it the worst thing you've ever seen? The bar needs to be a little bit higher, I think, and I think society will demand

 

726

00:58:37.050 --> 00:58:47.450

Colleen Brady (she/her): that the bar has to be higher than is this the worst thing you've ever seen? And I'm just gonna say, and you say, Well, you kind of jokingly said, well, at least it wasn't bleeding.

 

727

00:58:47.700 --> 00:58:56.979

Colleen Brady (she/her): But then there was again for a few of you those of you that are listeners that are dressage followers. I think you're going to know where I'm coming going with next.

 

728

00:58:57.604 --> 00:58:59.969

Colleen Brady (she/her): One of the US. Dressage horses

 

729

00:59:00.070 --> 00:59:02.220

Colleen Brady (she/her): was actually eliminated

 

730

00:59:02.350 --> 00:59:05.479

Colleen Brady (she/her): partway through its tests at the Olympics.

 

731

00:59:06.010 --> 00:59:08.830

Colleen Brady (she/her): because when it came in the arena.

 

732

00:59:09.170 --> 00:59:15.299

Colleen Brady (she/her): this is a mare that's known to be a little. She's a young mare, very

 

733

00:59:15.330 --> 00:59:17.020

Colleen Brady (she/her): high energy environment.

 

734

00:59:17.250 --> 00:59:20.310

Colleen Brady (she/her): and she spooked a little bit when she came in the arena.

 

735

00:59:20.440 --> 00:59:25.610

Colleen Brady (she/her): Well, as she went partway through the test, and she came up towards the judge. The bell rang.

 

736

00:59:26.080 --> 00:59:26.990

Colleen Brady (she/her): and

 

737

00:59:27.460 --> 00:59:43.149

Colleen Brady (she/her): again, for those of you that don't ride dressage when you never want the judge to ring the bell, because that means you need to stop, and that either you've gone off pattern. You're riding the test incorrectly, or there's a serious concern, and you're probably about to be eliminated.

 

738

00:59:43.280 --> 00:59:55.390

Colleen Brady (she/her): And in this particular situation, when that mare spooked when she came in the arena, she nicked her hind fetlock, and she had a spot of blood she had. She was a dark bay with 4 white feet.

 

739

00:59:55.500 --> 00:59:58.279

Colleen Brady (she/her): She had a spot of blood on one of her white feet.

 

740

00:59:58.350 --> 01:00:02.370

Colleen Brady (she/her): and the rules are very, very clear. No blood

 

741

01:00:02.720 --> 01:00:04.849

Colleen Brady (she/her): if there's any blood anywhere.

 

742

01:00:04.980 --> 01:00:09.100

Colleen Brady (she/her): The horse is eliminated, and they were eliminated.

 

743

01:00:10.350 --> 01:00:16.460

Kris Hiney: So one is happenstance, and but they're at least holding criteria. I guess. I mean.

 

744

01:00:16.460 --> 01:00:17.280

Colleen Brady (she/her): Yeah.

 

745

01:00:17.280 --> 01:00:29.320

Kris Hiney: Big piece. And even when you were talking like colleen, I was thinking like, Okay, so we always play the which is Worst game, you know, to be one of, you know this trainers, horses that have this

 

746

01:00:29.580 --> 01:00:35.250

Kris Hiney: the other hours of life sound pretty good compared to probably what a lot of other horses have.

 

747

01:00:35.530 --> 01:00:40.659

Kris Hiney: How do you weigh that out? Right? So how much time of

 

748

01:00:40.910 --> 01:00:49.850

Kris Hiney: discomfort? Unhappiness is not correct. I think those are pretty weighty questions that we don't have the answers to. But there are things that kind of go through my head like, is it?

 

749

01:00:50.050 --> 01:00:53.119

Kris Hiney: If you're trying to do all the other things good.

 

750

01:00:53.510 --> 01:00:56.870

Kris Hiney: I don't know what's the answer.

 

751

01:00:57.430 --> 01:01:05.069

Colleen Brady (she/her): And I think that's really. And that's where I think when we have referred to earlier about self reflection. And I think that's where, as an industry. Broadly.

 

752

01:01:05.370 --> 01:01:11.540

Colleen Brady (she/her): we really need to think about that. And the other thing we need to get better at, I think.

 

753

01:01:11.680 --> 01:01:22.579

Colleen Brady (she/her): is, is we need to get better at and continue to do research and trying to figure out what matters to the animal? And how can we figure out?

 

754

01:01:22.770 --> 01:01:27.160

Colleen Brady (she/her): Are there things that we can measure. Observe

 

755

01:01:27.610 --> 01:01:29.759

Colleen Brady (she/her): that help tell us

 

756

01:01:30.330 --> 01:01:41.670

Colleen Brady (she/her): what are the things that are most important to the animal. We know that it's very important for horses to have social interaction with other horses.

 

757

01:01:41.880 --> 01:01:45.940

Colleen Brady (she/her): That is really really important. Free social interaction.

 

758

01:01:46.516 --> 01:01:51.569

Colleen Brady (she/her): That's it's just such. A. It's a hardwired part of them as a herd

 

759

01:01:51.790 --> 01:01:56.510

Colleen Brady (she/her): animal to want to be around other horses and interact

 

760

01:01:56.920 --> 01:01:58.427

Colleen Brady (she/her): with other horses.

 

761

01:01:59.470 --> 01:02:04.855

Colleen Brady (she/her): And that's and that's that is, keep asking all the hard questions.

 

762

01:02:05.560 --> 01:02:10.100

Colleen Brady (she/her): because this is really complicated. This isn't something that it's not

 

763

01:02:10.340 --> 01:02:15.836

Colleen Brady (she/her): 2 plus 2 is 4. But that's where, even back to the question. You know.

 

764

01:02:16.430 --> 01:02:24.600

Colleen Brady (she/her): it is still not a hundred percent confirmed that Olympics will be that the equestrian events will be at the Olympics in Los Angeles in 2028.

 

765

01:02:25.468 --> 01:02:29.319

Colleen Brady (she/her): What we do know is that the modern Pentathlon.

 

766

01:02:29.320 --> 01:02:29.850

Kris Hiney: It lost.

 

767

01:02:29.850 --> 01:02:30.370

Colleen Brady (she/her): Not.

 

768

01:02:30.370 --> 01:02:31.830

Kris Hiney: social license to operate.

 

769

01:02:31.830 --> 01:02:39.300

Colleen Brady (she/her): Will will not have show jumping. Yeah, in it. This was the last year here in 2024

 

770

01:02:39.827 --> 01:02:49.889

Colleen Brady (she/her): was the last year that showjumping the equestrian component was included in the modern Pentathlon because of a situation, a single situation

 

771

01:02:49.980 --> 01:02:53.899

Colleen Brady (she/her): that occurred at the Tokyo Olympics, where.

 

772

01:02:54.040 --> 01:02:56.450

Colleen Brady (she/her): in front of everybody who watched

 

773

01:02:57.120 --> 01:03:01.390

Colleen Brady (she/her): the event. And the Olympics, you know. A coach

 

774

01:03:01.680 --> 01:03:02.889

Colleen Brady (she/her): punched a horse.

 

775

01:03:04.050 --> 01:03:04.670

Colleen Brady (she/her): And

 

776

01:03:06.100 --> 01:03:09.219

Colleen Brady (she/her): It created a tremendous uproar.

 

777

01:03:09.360 --> 01:03:11.020

Colleen Brady (she/her): and the result

 

778

01:03:11.430 --> 01:03:15.820

Colleen Brady (she/her): was loss of social license in that particular context.

 

779

01:03:15.820 --> 01:03:16.190

Kris Hiney: Yeah.

 

780

01:03:16.553 --> 01:03:19.819

Colleen Brady (she/her): And they are now the last I read there.

 

781

01:03:19.830 --> 01:03:26.449

Colleen Brady (she/her): basically replacing the show jumping with an American ninja warrior type. Obstacle course.

 

782

01:03:26.450 --> 01:03:27.830

Kris Hiney: I do love this.

 

783

01:03:27.830 --> 01:03:34.350

Colleen Brady (she/her): Which is fun to watch Yup. And so there are no animals. But you know that even. And

 

784

01:03:36.120 --> 01:03:48.830

Colleen Brady (she/her): you heard the context of that discussion a lot. And when I say, heard that includes social media and all kinds of other outlets of, and it's back to this idea of the horse's choice.

 

785

01:03:49.220 --> 01:03:55.069

Colleen Brady (she/her): If the Olympic motto is higher, faster, stronger, and about human athletes, then why is there

 

786

01:03:55.450 --> 01:03:57.600

Colleen Brady (she/her): equine athlete involved

 

787

01:03:58.230 --> 01:04:01.959

Colleen Brady (she/her): and back to even how, as society

 

788

01:04:02.830 --> 01:04:04.250

Colleen Brady (she/her): changes.

 

789

01:04:04.280 --> 01:04:05.940

Colleen Brady (she/her): you know. Back when

 

790

01:04:06.290 --> 01:04:12.730

Colleen Brady (she/her): horses 1st were in the Olympics they were still a critical part of the military.

 

791

01:04:12.840 --> 01:04:13.720

Colleen Brady (she/her): and

 

792

01:04:15.360 --> 01:04:22.960

Colleen Brady (she/her): and you had to actually be a military, a person in the military to show in the equestrian events in the Olympics.

 

793

01:04:23.850 --> 01:04:25.750

Colleen Brady (she/her): Obviously.

 

794

01:04:26.080 --> 01:04:32.969

Colleen Brady (she/her): things have changed since that time. You know what the way we view horses

 

795

01:04:32.990 --> 01:04:37.750

Colleen Brady (she/her): now in the role horses have in our society is very different than it was

 

796

01:04:39.110 --> 01:04:41.729

Colleen Brady (she/her): back then, a hundred plus

 

797

01:04:42.060 --> 01:04:43.700

Colleen Brady (she/her): a hundred plus years ago.

 

798

01:04:43.910 --> 01:04:46.779

Colleen Brady (she/her): And so what does that mean?

 

799

01:04:47.194 --> 01:04:51.039

Colleen Brady (she/her): And I think this is just so important, because

 

800

01:04:51.993 --> 01:04:53.299

Colleen Brady (she/her): back to

 

801

01:04:53.710 --> 01:04:54.650

Colleen Brady (she/her): not

 

802

01:04:55.860 --> 01:05:01.070

Colleen Brady (she/her): falling into the trap of pointing at other parts of the industry.

 

803

01:05:01.490 --> 01:05:05.790

Colleen Brady (she/her): If one part of the industry loses its social license to operate

 

804

01:05:06.460 --> 01:05:07.190

Colleen Brady (she/her): that

 

805

01:05:07.700 --> 01:05:16.171

Colleen Brady (she/her): has tremendous potential to become a snowball effect on more and more parts of the industry.

 

806

01:05:17.770 --> 01:05:20.240

Colleen Brady (she/her): The 1st one to go down is going to be the hard one

 

807

01:05:20.790 --> 01:05:25.059

Colleen Brady (she/her): after that, for others to go down is going to be a much easier

 

808

01:05:25.380 --> 01:05:28.550

Colleen Brady (she/her): task for those that that's their goal.

 

809

01:05:29.292 --> 01:05:31.660

Colleen Brady (she/her): And we cannot

 

810

01:05:32.325 --> 01:05:36.819

Colleen Brady (she/her): help ourselves, simply saying, Oh, no, everything we're doing is fine. You just

 

811

01:05:37.040 --> 01:05:38.570

Colleen Brady (she/her): you just don't know any better.

 

812

01:05:39.098 --> 01:05:47.150

Colleen Brady (she/her): That's not actually the correct argument. You know. There probably are things in all of our industries that we need to take a long, hard look at

 

813

01:05:47.360 --> 01:05:49.650

Colleen Brady (she/her): and say, is this.

 

814

01:05:50.190 --> 01:05:52.060

Colleen Brady (she/her): and if we're going to justify it.

 

815

01:05:52.600 --> 01:05:53.980

Colleen Brady (she/her): do we have

 

816

01:05:54.190 --> 01:05:57.470

Colleen Brady (she/her): actual empirical data to justify

 

817

01:05:57.990 --> 01:06:03.310

Colleen Brady (she/her): that it is. And even if we do, is that still enough? So back to the 2 year old racehorses.

 

818

01:06:03.790 --> 01:06:05.800

Colleen Brady (she/her): there's quite a lot of research

 

819

01:06:06.320 --> 01:06:09.329

Colleen Brady (she/her): that's been done that shows that

 

820

01:06:10.220 --> 01:06:12.330

Colleen Brady (she/her): appropriate exercise

 

821

01:06:12.370 --> 01:06:17.750

Colleen Brady (she/her): in young developing horses actually helps increase bone density

 

822

01:06:17.780 --> 01:06:19.710

Colleen Brady (she/her): and helps them develop

 

823

01:06:19.800 --> 01:06:21.970

Colleen Brady (she/her): a stronger skeletal system.

 

824

01:06:22.690 --> 01:06:23.800

Colleen Brady (she/her): So that's

 

825

01:06:24.130 --> 01:06:28.109

Colleen Brady (she/her): one of the arguments to say, racing 2 year olds. Is not

 

826

01:06:28.410 --> 01:06:29.660

Colleen Brady (she/her): that bad for them?

 

827

01:06:29.860 --> 01:06:31.810

Colleen Brady (she/her): Because we know that.

 

828

01:06:32.370 --> 01:06:36.510

Colleen Brady (she/her): They that that properly done exercise helps them develop.

 

829

01:06:37.100 --> 01:06:38.100

Colleen Brady (she/her): Okay.

 

830

01:06:39.100 --> 01:06:40.360

Colleen Brady (she/her): we know this.

 

831

01:06:40.390 --> 01:06:45.240

Colleen Brady (she/her): That's what the data says. But what about all the other things? Does it still make it okay?

 

832

01:06:45.410 --> 01:06:45.820

Kris Hiney: Right.

 

833

01:06:47.220 --> 01:06:51.859

Colleen Brady (she/her): because, are there other things other factors to consider other than just bone

 

834

01:06:52.710 --> 01:06:54.189

Colleen Brady (she/her): bone development?

 

835

01:06:54.190 --> 01:07:04.769

Kris Hiney: Yeah. And I just, I think in other countries, too, like sometimes there'll be a big outcry about a change, that is, you know, kind of around that social licensed operator. The one I'm thinking about is whip usage.

 

836

01:07:04.840 --> 01:07:13.369

Kris Hiney: and everybody's like, Oh, well, you know, it's going to be a complete disaster, but doesn't correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't Australia.

 

837

01:07:13.530 --> 01:07:15.070

Kris Hiney: or at least not yet.

 

838

01:07:15.140 --> 01:07:17.940

Kris Hiney: not yet. But they're on the road, or testing.

 

839

01:07:17.940 --> 01:07:18.610

Colleen Brady (she/her):

 

840

01:07:18.610 --> 01:07:19.570

Kris Hiney: The theory.

 

841

01:07:19.800 --> 01:07:26.980

Colleen Brady (she/her): There's well there. There are definitely more regulations in many sports or sports. Now

 

842

01:07:27.210 --> 01:07:28.250

Colleen Brady (she/her): about

 

843

01:07:28.660 --> 01:07:34.879

Colleen Brady (she/her): how frequently you can use the whip. How many times you can strike the horse with a whip and within a certain window of time.

 

844

01:07:36.300 --> 01:07:40.620

Colleen Brady (she/her): What types of whips you can use those sorts of things to try to address

 

845

01:07:41.593 --> 01:07:45.210

Colleen Brady (she/her): some of those concerns around

 

846

01:07:45.360 --> 01:07:48.060

Colleen Brady (she/her): around that. And

 

847

01:07:48.090 --> 01:07:49.523

Colleen Brady (she/her): there are

 

848

01:07:50.670 --> 01:07:52.119

Colleen Brady (she/her): you know, and

 

849

01:07:52.360 --> 01:07:58.319

Colleen Brady (she/her): it is the response. And this happens in eventing again. That's 1 of the sports that I'm more involved in.

 

850

01:07:58.440 --> 01:08:02.060

Colleen Brady (she/her): you know. If you hit a horse more than 3 times

 

851

01:08:02.416 --> 01:08:08.749

Colleen Brady (she/her): you can get basically a yellow card, so similar like you would in soccer a warning to say, No, -

 

852

01:08:09.010 --> 01:08:10.080

Colleen Brady (she/her): You can't do that

 

853

01:08:12.070 --> 01:08:14.989

Colleen Brady (she/her): But then things happen like

 

854

01:08:16.050 --> 01:08:21.260

Colleen Brady (she/her): within the last I can't remember was last. I get mixed up in Australia because they're on the other side of the.

 

855

01:08:21.740 --> 01:08:23.849

Colleen Brady (she/her): It's like spring is fall and fall is spring.

 

856

01:08:24.290 --> 01:08:33.249

Colleen Brady (she/her): But a recent Melbourne Cup winner, and the Melbourne Cup in Australia would be of similar importance to the Kentucky Derby. Here. It's a huge race.

 

857

01:08:34.689 --> 01:08:39.159

Colleen Brady (she/her): you can very clearly see in the pictures of the winner

 

858

01:08:39.609 --> 01:08:44.089

Colleen Brady (she/her): in the winner's circle welts.

 

859

01:08:44.910 --> 01:08:45.809

Colleen Brady (she/her): The whip.

 

860

01:08:46.215 --> 01:08:52.429

Colleen Brady (she/her): Which, of course, then, are all over social media, and that's right, and it creates concerns about.

 

861

01:08:52.510 --> 01:08:57.659

Colleen Brady (she/her): And then when people say, Well, the horse wants to run. The horses love to run.

 

862

01:08:57.930 --> 01:09:00.219

Colleen Brady (she/her): They're here because they love it so.

 

863

01:09:00.359 --> 01:09:03.220

Colleen Brady (she/her): And then the people say, Well, then, why do you have to hit it so much.

 

864

01:09:05.990 --> 01:09:14.450

Colleen Brady (she/her): And then another, you know. And then there's research that actually says that there's an inverse relationship between the number of times a horse is hit and how fast they go.

 

865

01:09:14.800 --> 01:09:18.340

Colleen Brady (she/her): And basically that hitting them doesn't necessarily make them run faster.

 

866

01:09:18.340 --> 01:09:19.670

Kris Hiney: Likes it. Yeah.

 

867

01:09:20.520 --> 01:09:26.129

Colleen Brady (she/her): And so then they're like, well, maybe they could be just as fast without whips. But then

 

868

01:09:26.479 --> 01:09:29.380

Colleen Brady (she/her): the people that are pro-whip use

 

869

01:09:29.620 --> 01:09:45.769

Colleen Brady (she/her): talk about how. Let's remember that they actually use the whips to help guide the horse. Also, remembering that the jockey's legs are very high up, you know. They can't use their legs in the same way that those of us who ride in a more traditional astride seat

 

870

01:09:46.600 --> 01:09:48.910

Colleen Brady (she/her): can ride, and so that, especially

 

871

01:09:49.340 --> 01:10:00.420

Colleen Brady (she/her): going to the outside of the track, depending on which direction which country you're in and which direction you're going, that that just rate, that holding that whip up so the horse can see it

 

872

01:10:00.430 --> 01:10:11.980

Colleen Brady (she/her): can really be important to help keep the horse going straight, which then is safer for everybody. And so these are the conversations that are going that are going on around this whole.

 

873

01:10:12.310 --> 01:10:15.710

Colleen Brady (she/her): this whole idea of whip use.

 

874

01:10:16.520 --> 01:10:21.580

Colleen Brady (she/her): But Australia is probably the closest, I would say at this point.

 

875

01:10:22.436 --> 01:10:24.659

Colleen Brady (she/her): In in making some

 

876

01:10:24.980 --> 01:10:26.540

Colleen Brady (she/her): more sweeping

 

877

01:10:27.319 --> 01:10:34.339

Colleen Brady (she/her): changes to what's allowed with whips. And some of the more active researchers looking at whip use are

 

878

01:10:34.370 --> 01:10:36.009

Colleen Brady (she/her): are based in Australia.

 

879

01:10:36.350 --> 01:10:56.530

Kris Hiney: So I wanna talk, maybe about what then? Because to me, what we always talk about when we're teaching this is that social license to operate ultimately comes down to individual actions right? Because it can be as much as that one horrific incident, the punching the horse on international television to be like, and you're done.

 

880

01:10:57.470 --> 01:10:59.950

Kris Hiney: So how does one

 

881

01:11:00.090 --> 01:11:08.880

Kris Hiney: try to cause? It's everybody's job right? What is our role to try to maintain

 

882

01:11:08.960 --> 01:11:14.999

Kris Hiney: that social license to operate for horse usage, for recreation and sport.

 

883

01:11:16.180 --> 01:11:23.049

Colleen Brady (she/her): You know, I think it goes back to what we started talking about is I guess I would say there's 2 pieces.

 

884

01:11:23.787 --> 01:11:29.750

Colleen Brady (she/her): One is self reflection. You know on how. What are you doing with your horse.

 

885

01:11:29.890 --> 01:11:32.469

Colleen Brady (she/her): you know, or the horses that you

 

886

01:11:32.580 --> 01:11:36.409

Colleen Brady (she/her): that you interact with? Do you believe

 

887

01:11:36.620 --> 01:11:38.120

Colleen Brady (she/her): you know, that

 

888

01:11:38.310 --> 01:11:44.860

Colleen Brady (she/her): you are making the majority of the decisions in the best interest of the horse. Are you minimizing

 

889

01:11:47.130 --> 01:11:49.599

Colleen Brady (she/her): discomfort or pain? You know.

 

890

01:11:50.720 --> 01:11:56.110

Colleen Brady (she/her): if you think you're causing the horse pain, how are you justifying, causing pain.

 

891

01:11:56.820 --> 01:12:00.889

Colleen Brady (she/her): And to me those are places where you start. And again, this is going to be my opinion.

 

892

01:12:01.820 --> 01:12:07.009

Colleen Brady (she/her): I really question why we should be causing horses pain.

 

893

01:12:09.220 --> 01:12:11.000

Colleen Brady (she/her): A little discomfort.

 

894

01:12:11.300 --> 01:12:19.669

Colleen Brady (she/her): you know. Yeah, I probably I'm not sure I would want somebody to sit on my back and squeeze their leg against me, either, you know. But if we're causing, and again.

 

895

01:12:19.680 --> 01:12:24.390

Colleen Brady (she/her): you know, back to another thing that's going around right now on the dressage

 

896

01:12:24.470 --> 01:12:27.630

Colleen Brady (she/her): is the blue tongues that the

 

897

01:12:28.010 --> 01:12:36.469

Colleen Brady (she/her): tightness of the curb chains, and the fit of some of the bits on some of these sources, and then the amount of hold how much pressure they're putting on the bit

 

898

01:12:36.800 --> 01:12:42.069

Colleen Brady (she/her): actually is creating situations where it basically acts like a tourniquet

 

899

01:12:42.320 --> 01:12:45.779

Colleen Brady (she/her): on the tongue. And you can see that the tongues are turning blue

 

900

01:12:46.231 --> 01:12:47.890

Colleen Brady (she/her): from lack of blood flow.

 

901

01:12:50.990 --> 01:12:51.800

Kris Hiney: That's probably.

 

902

01:12:51.800 --> 01:12:54.819

Colleen Brady (she/her): If you, if you think that's okay.

 

903

01:12:55.870 --> 01:12:58.819

Colleen Brady (she/her): I would challenge you just to really think about.

 

904

01:12:58.820 --> 01:12:59.739

Kris Hiney: Why, that is.

 

905

01:12:59.740 --> 01:13:04.010

Colleen Brady (she/her): Why, that's okay. And if there's a way you could do things differently.

 

906

01:13:04.797 --> 01:13:06.740

Colleen Brady (she/her): Another big concern.

 

907

01:13:07.143 --> 01:13:12.600

Colleen Brady (she/her): In industries that use them is the tightness of nose bands or cavessons.

 

908

01:13:13.403 --> 01:13:16.319

Colleen Brady (she/her): Where cavessons are so tight

 

909

01:13:16.450 --> 01:13:28.260

Colleen Brady (she/her): that the old Pony club or 4-H 2 fingers. You can't even get a slip of paper underneath them. They're so tight that they're causing micro fractures. In the nasal bones.

 

910

01:13:28.330 --> 01:13:41.230

Colleen Brady (she/her): Part of that is to try to keep the mouth shut so that you can't see the blue tongue, or, you know, horses show a lot of their stress and distress through the mouth. And so if the horse is distressed

 

911

01:13:41.620 --> 01:13:53.200

Colleen Brady (she/her): and they're really active in their mouth. Some people choose to say, well, I'll just put the cavesson in so tight you can't open your mouth. I would challenge people to say.

 

912

01:13:54.030 --> 01:13:55.640

Colleen Brady (she/her): Let's figure out

 

913

01:13:56.020 --> 01:14:03.810

Colleen Brady (she/her): why the horse is expressing stress in this way, and whether I can do something different in order to actually

 

914

01:14:03.930 --> 01:14:14.360

Colleen Brady (she/her): still try to get towards my goal. But would a bit change work? Am I using my hands too much? Am I doing this, you know. Is there something pinching something that's not that's not comfortable. Do we need to

 

915

01:14:14.530 --> 01:14:18.279

Colleen Brady (she/her): step back a couple of steps, and maybe the horse isn't quite ready for

 

916

01:14:18.340 --> 01:14:25.940

Colleen Brady (she/her): that particular movement, or skill, or whatever at this time is whether we can find different ways to

 

917

01:14:26.840 --> 01:14:32.939

Colleen Brady (she/her): to figure out how to do that. I think everybody needs to take their own responsibility

 

918

01:14:33.400 --> 01:14:35.749

Colleen Brady (she/her): for the horses that are in their care

 

919

01:14:35.940 --> 01:14:37.146

Colleen Brady (she/her): and control.

 

920

01:14:38.740 --> 01:14:46.579

Colleen Brady (she/her): we hear a lot about blaming the judges. Well, if the judges didn't award this horse or that horse or the other horse, then it would go away.

 

921

01:14:46.990 --> 01:14:47.840

Colleen Brady (she/her): Well.

 

922

01:14:48.060 --> 01:14:49.920

Colleen Brady (she/her): judges can only judge

 

923

01:14:50.410 --> 01:14:52.259

Colleen Brady (she/her): what they're presented with.

 

924

01:14:52.410 --> 01:14:56.090

Colleen Brady (she/her): and if they're not presented with horses that aren't showing

 

925

01:14:56.340 --> 01:15:00.370

Colleen Brady (she/her): distress, it's hard for them to PIN horses that aren't showing distress.

 

926

01:15:00.981 --> 01:15:08.549

Colleen Brady (she/her): And I just think that that gets back to this idea of how we rationalize our own behaviors. And we need to start 1st

 

927

01:15:08.942 --> 01:15:13.850

Colleen Brady (she/her): by looking at ourselves, and how we're interacting with the horses that we have care and control over.

 

928

01:15:14.020 --> 01:15:35.240

Kris Hiney: So we're gonna do a shameless plug now. Because you were talking about you know how horses show their stress. And so you and I are one of the co-creators of a course that we developed. That was an online course that's entitled RAiSE, which is recognizing affective states in equine. And the whole point

 

929

01:15:35.320 --> 01:15:44.530

Kris Hiney: of that course, right is trying to educate people on being better able to recognize the emotional state of the horse.

 

930

01:15:46.290 --> 01:15:46.900

Colleen Brady (she/her): Right.

 

931

01:15:47.170 --> 01:16:03.859

Kris Hiney: And ultimately, if we're better at recognizing that theoretically right that we're going to try to use practices that promote more of a positive affect than a negative affect. But really making you think about kind of that whole life of the horse, and

 

932

01:16:03.980 --> 01:16:09.229

Kris Hiney: is what you're doing, causing undue frustration, stress, anxiety.

 

933

01:16:10.810 --> 01:16:13.879

Colleen Brady (she/her): And then are there different ways, I mean, and to me it's not.

 

934

01:16:14.280 --> 01:16:17.420

Colleen Brady (she/her): you know, if strategy A

 

935

01:16:17.710 --> 01:16:24.079

Colleen Brady (she/her): is causing undue stress and anxiety. Well, that's not a good learning environment for the horse.

 

936

01:16:24.390 --> 01:16:27.219

Colleen Brady (she/her): nor is it a good learning environment for us.

 

937

01:16:27.340 --> 01:16:36.580

Colleen Brady (she/her): So I then I think it's just a matter of exploring. Well, what are other ways that we can try to teach this? Are there other approaches we can

 

938

01:16:36.650 --> 01:16:38.390

Colleen Brady (she/her): take? It's not that.

 

939

01:16:38.600 --> 01:16:46.180

Colleen Brady (she/her): Oh, this is causing this horse stress or anxiety. So now we can't do that. We can't teach them a flying lead change, because it's causing stress and anxiety.

 

940

01:16:46.440 --> 01:16:58.440

Colleen Brady (she/her): No, let's let's not say that. Let's say, okay, let's figure out, do we need to take a different approach for this particular horse. And you know, and maybe that method worked great for 8 out of 9 horses.

 

941

01:16:58.440 --> 01:16:59.490

Kris Hiney: But.

 

942

01:16:59.490 --> 01:17:03.409

Colleen Brady (she/her): You know, this might be horse number 10, that cause they're all individual, too.

 

943

01:17:04.038 --> 01:17:06.590

Colleen Brady (she/her): And then another thing you know, back to

 

944

01:17:06.600 --> 01:17:10.130

Colleen Brady (she/her): this is kind of me getting on. One of my soap boxes, too.

 

945

01:17:10.430 --> 01:17:15.360

Colleen Brady (she/her): is, I think, as a person that's a horse owner. I think horse owners

 

946

01:17:15.610 --> 01:17:20.139

Colleen Brady (she/her): sometimes, especially owners that have horses with trainers

 

947

01:17:20.200 --> 01:17:29.309

Colleen Brady (she/her): get a little bit more of a pass on some of this than they should, because the trainers are the ones that take all the heat. This

 

948

01:17:29.680 --> 01:17:31.070

Colleen Brady (she/her): Olympic rider.

 

949

01:17:31.900 --> 01:17:35.269

Colleen Brady (she/her): you know she has been crucified.

 

950

01:17:37.090 --> 01:17:38.930

Colleen Brady (she/her): for that video.

 

951

01:17:40.000 --> 01:17:41.030

Colleen Brady (she/her): But

 

952

01:17:42.120 --> 01:17:44.560

Colleen Brady (she/her): there was an owner shooting the video

 

953

01:17:45.140 --> 01:17:45.860

Colleen Brady (she/her): that

 

954

01:17:46.230 --> 01:17:47.520

Colleen Brady (she/her): didn't stop it.

 

955

01:17:48.500 --> 01:17:50.629

Colleen Brady (she/her): There was a rider on the horse

 

956

01:17:51.090 --> 01:17:57.129

Colleen Brady (she/her): now granted. In this situation. The writer was a young person so to expect a young person to do that. To know is probably not practical.

 

957

01:17:57.760 --> 01:18:02.170

Colleen Brady (she/her): but as owners, too. If we're putting our horses in training with people.

 

958

01:18:02.460 --> 01:18:03.490

Colleen Brady (she/her): you know.

 

959

01:18:03.730 --> 01:18:05.260

Colleen Brady (she/her): we have the

 

960

01:18:05.900 --> 01:18:07.110

Colleen Brady (she/her): power.

 

961

01:18:07.710 --> 01:18:11.640

Colleen Brady (she/her): Actually to say, if you're doing things that I don't think

 

962

01:18:13.430 --> 01:18:18.280

Colleen Brady (she/her): are okay, that you don't have social license with me to do that.

 

963

01:18:18.500 --> 01:18:26.110

Colleen Brady (she/her): Then I, as the owner, you ultimately have the responsibility or the opportunity to make a change by saying.

 

964

01:18:27.010 --> 01:18:28.810

Colleen Brady (she/her): I'm going to.

 

965

01:18:29.050 --> 01:18:32.839

Colleen Brady (she/her): you know. Take this horse out of that barn and put it in a different barn, where?

 

966

01:18:33.526 --> 01:18:34.990

Colleen Brady (she/her): I feel more comfortable.

 

967

01:18:35.240 --> 01:18:37.500

Colleen Brady (she/her): If, as an owner.

 

968

01:18:38.030 --> 01:18:46.319

Colleen Brady (she/her): you, you decide that it's more important to you to stay with Trainer a. Because you believe that will make you more competitive.

 

969

01:18:46.360 --> 01:18:50.859

Colleen Brady (she/her): and that you might reach your competitive goals. Then you need to own that

 

970

01:18:52.260 --> 01:18:55.789

Colleen Brady (she/her): and accept that. Then you're part of

 

971

01:18:56.110 --> 01:18:58.593

Colleen Brady (she/her): what that horse is

 

972

01:18:59.170 --> 01:19:00.590

Colleen Brady (she/her): experiencing

 

973

01:19:02.100 --> 01:19:04.629

Colleen Brady (she/her): in in a training or competition

 

974

01:19:04.930 --> 01:19:11.059

Colleen Brady (she/her): scenario and not just say, well, I can't do anything about it, because that's what the trainer does. Well.

 

975

01:19:11.530 --> 01:19:14.000

Colleen Brady (she/her): the owner ultimately

 

976

01:19:14.960 --> 01:19:19.950

Colleen Brady (she/her): has control, because you can't. You decide who has care, custody, and control of your horse.

 

977

01:19:19.950 --> 01:19:31.199

Kris Hiney: Right. And I think you know, you're using that example of the flying lead change. And is the horse gonna get frustrated? Probably. So because this is a hard thing for a lot of horses. But in my head, like.

 

978

01:19:31.340 --> 01:19:41.529

Kris Hiney: Okay, let's say the horse kicks out at a flying lead change. Well, is it crucified for it? Do you back up and do some review? Does the horse kick out at every lead change like you might expect it to happen

 

979

01:19:41.540 --> 01:19:51.680

Kris Hiney: once. But then, what is the reaction? And what does it look like going forward? Right? So I think you know what we're doing as educators is trying to say. You know, we're not saying the horse should have

 

980

01:19:52.370 --> 01:20:01.070

Kris Hiney: 100% of his life. No discomfort ever right, but because that's not probably realistic. But it's

 

981

01:20:01.220 --> 01:20:12.240

Kris Hiney: how frequent, how intense, what happens afterwards, which I think that's our job, right is to monitor and put that into context to say, Okay, this is should be happening or shouldn't be happening.

 

982

01:20:12.970 --> 01:20:16.169

Colleen Brady (she/her): I think frequency and duration are really important.

 

983

01:20:16.190 --> 01:20:21.900

Colleen Brady (she/her): And again, and and that's part of why I like the client and lead change example, too, because there are

 

984

01:20:22.480 --> 01:20:26.039

Colleen Brady (she/her): so many different ways to teach a horse flying lead changes

 

985

01:20:26.410 --> 01:20:27.389

Colleen Brady (she/her): that if

 

986

01:20:27.790 --> 01:20:34.129

Colleen Brady (she/her): if one particular strategy isn't working for this particular horse, you know. Change it up, try something different.

 

987

01:20:35.250 --> 01:20:36.489

Colleen Brady (she/her): Try something different.

 

988

01:20:36.920 --> 01:20:37.959

Colleen Brady (she/her): you know

 

989

01:20:39.030 --> 01:20:42.579

Colleen Brady (she/her): and see if something else makes more sense.

 

990

01:20:43.330 --> 01:20:49.899

Colleen Brady (she/her): And then and this is some of one of my favorite riding instruct instructors, clinicians that I've ridden with

 

991

01:20:50.170 --> 01:20:55.339

Colleen Brady (she/her): always says, too, when the horse isn't doing what I want it to do? She says. Look 1st to your self.

 

992

01:20:56.520 --> 01:20:57.849

Colleen Brady (she/her): and what am I doing?

 

993

01:20:57.860 --> 01:20:59.369

Colleen Brady (she/her): Is my position

 

994

01:20:59.430 --> 01:21:05.099

Colleen Brady (she/her): correct? Is my position where it needs to be? Am I being clear in the way I'm communicating

 

995

01:21:05.240 --> 01:21:06.610

Colleen Brady (she/her): to the horse

 

996

01:21:06.950 --> 01:21:09.230

Colleen Brady (she/her): what I'm asking the horse to do

 

997

01:21:09.370 --> 01:21:12.100

Colleen Brady (she/her): do I know that the horse actually

 

998

01:21:12.350 --> 01:21:14.799

Colleen Brady (she/her): knows the skill that I'm asking.

 

999

01:21:14.840 --> 01:21:17.920

Colleen Brady (she/her): I have a new 5 year old horse I got in the end of June

 

1000

01:21:18.300 --> 01:21:19.800

Colleen Brady (she/her): if I would get on him

 

1001

01:21:20.320 --> 01:21:25.680

Colleen Brady (she/her): to. When I go out to the barn and ride this evening and ask them to do a flying lead change. The horses never

 

1002

01:21:25.960 --> 01:21:28.460

Colleen Brady (she/her): learned how to do a flying lead change under saddle.

 

1003

01:21:28.530 --> 01:21:32.420

Colleen Brady (she/her): He's athletic enough. He can do a flying lead change galloping across the field, but

 

1004

01:21:32.770 --> 01:21:40.390

Colleen Brady (she/her): to know it on cue he doesn't know that. So to expect him to do something that I haven't

 

1005

01:21:40.490 --> 01:21:43.510

Colleen Brady (she/her): or somebody hasn't trained him to do is

 

1006

01:21:43.660 --> 01:21:45.360

Colleen Brady (she/her): an unfair expectation.

 

1007

01:21:45.540 --> 01:21:46.150

Kris Hiney: Right?

 

1008

01:21:46.900 --> 01:22:11.286

Kris Hiney: Well, I think this has been a great conversation. And I am gonna plug back on our course. So if people are interested, we'll put a link to the course in the show notes. It's actually, we think it's really well done. The 2 of us and everybody else that participated with it. So it's kind of a, it's an online interactive module. It's 5 hours. Actually, there's quite a bit of content. By the time you get through it. But

 

1009

01:22:11.650 --> 01:22:28.630

Kris Hiney: really helps owners understand and hopefully appreciate the importance of that affective state or emotions in their horse and recognizing when it's really going south. That's the type of thing that's going to lose right? Our social license to operate.

 

1010

01:22:31.370 --> 01:22:32.800

Colleen Brady (she/her): Well, thank you very much.

 

1011

01:22:32.800 --> 01:22:55.659

Kris Hiney: Yeah, this has been great. So really appreciate your time and again we will put any information. Such as the link to the course in the show notes. You certainly can contact us as well at extension horses@gmail.com. You can even drop me a personal email, khiney@okstate.edu, if you have interest in these topics we've been talking about.

 

1012

01:22:55.660 --> 01:23:02.969

Kris Hiney: So thanks again, Dr. Brady. And this has been another episode of our tack box talk for stories with a purpose.