Heliacal Star: The story of your next read!

Victor Bahna, author and first time guest to the podcast, joins us to discuss his latest book - Heliacal Star, a page turning thriller based on the Thoroughbred racing industry.  However, this isn't just book club, we discuss what changes have occurred within the thoroughbred racing industry to ensure the integrity of the sport and the safety and welfare of these amazing athletes.

To learn more about Victor visit: Victorbahna.com

Transcript

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Kris Hiney: Welcome to extension horses, tack box talk series horse stories with a purpose. I'm your host, Dr. Kris Hiney, with Oklahoma State University. And today we're actually going to be talking with an author who writes kind of some thrillers that involve the thoroughbred industry. So welcome to the program. Victor Bahne.

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Victor Bahna: Thank you so much for having me on today. I appreciate it.

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Kris Hiney: So, Victor, you are a breeder and an owner of racehorses. So why don't you give us a little stage before we get into your book about how long you've been in the business, and what you've done a little bit in the thoroughbred industry.

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Victor Bahna: Yeah, sure, I've been

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Victor Bahna: in the thoroughbred industry for 20 years.

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Victor Bahna: Started with when I claimed a horse at Emerald Downs back in 2,005. I think so, maybe 19 years, and from there I

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Victor Bahna: continued to participate as an owner, but as one of my or 2 of my mares retired, decided to move into the breeding business as well.

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Victor Bahna: and since then I've been pretty active as both an owner and a breeder. I even have a partnership that's called Royal Victory Thoroughbreds. And

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Victor Bahna: in that partnership

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Victor Bahna: it's a small partnership. But we, we share ownership of the horses, and

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Victor Bahna: we currently race on the east coast, in New York and mid-atlantic, and on the West coast in Washington, State, and California.

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Kris Hiney: Okay. So you're coast to coast.

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Victor Bahna: Coast to coast. Yes.

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Kris Hiney: So do you get to get out to see your horses race much.

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Victor Bahna: I do. I definitely get out. I'm local to Washington. So whenever we're racing in emerald downs in Washington, I definitely go out there for the races.

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Victor Bahna: I also, when I visit different areas, I like to be there, not just for the races, but even more important to see them train in the morning. I think that's

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Victor Bahna: almost as exciting as as the race itself. There's just a lot happening on the backstretch any given morning.

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Victor Bahna: and well, all the horses are going to get out and get their workouts into, so that that to me is also a must do when I'm when I'm traveling.

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Kris Hiney: So you have interwoven, then your love of horses and thoroughbred racing into your career as an author. So we're going to be talking about one of your newest book, Helical Star. So tell us a little bit about this novel.

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Victor Bahna: Yeah. So I I definitely wanted to

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Victor Bahna: share some of my interest and and some of my passion with with racing.

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Victor Bahna: But I wanted to also tell a good story. I think everybody likes a really good story. It's going to have its good guys and its bad guys, or it's good girls and its bad girls. And so

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Victor Bahna: I I took that sort of concept and and wrote this. I'd say

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Victor Bahna: fiction, thriller, racing, thriller type of book.

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Victor Bahna: And

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Victor Bahna: the book basically is about this horse. His name is Helaiacal Star, which is the name of the book itself.

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Victor Bahna: and our main character or protagonist. His name is Matt. He takes a particular liking to this horse

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Victor Bahna: after he places a hunch bet on him at the races one day.

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Victor Bahna: Matt also is a former bookie who had worked with organized crime in the past. But

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Victor Bahna: he didn't necessarily end on a very positive note with his cohorts about a dozen years ago.

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Victor Bahna: and so one day he's on the backstretch and taking a tour.

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Victor Bahna: and on a whim he jumps off the tram and finds out that his favorite horse. Helical Star is at a stall that's nearby.

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Victor Bahna: so he decides that he's going to go take a peek at this horse because he's got this sort of affinity for him.

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Victor Bahna: and when he does, as he's approaching

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Victor Bahna: the stall, he stops because he overhears this conversation that's taking place.

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Victor Bahna: and

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Victor Bahna: he recognizes or

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Victor Bahna: remembers one of the voices that is talking, and it. It's 1 of his cohorts from the past

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Victor Bahna: with the with the mobsters, who he didn't necessarily get off on the right or end on the right foot with.

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Victor Bahna: and so he's got to make a decision he hears this conversation is not necessarily a pleasant one and involves this horse Helical star.

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Victor Bahna: and he needs to make a decision in terms of what does he do? Does he stay quiet and just let bygones be bygones?

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Victor Bahna: Or does he say something.

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Victor Bahna: report what he hears to the authorities, but

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Victor Bahna: definitely put him at risk? Because if he has to face

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Victor Bahna: these mobsters again. He might not make it through this time.

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Victor Bahna: And so that's the decision that he's facing. And from there there's a whole bunch of

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Victor Bahna: action and twists and turns, and it's up up to the reader at that point to to pick it up and see what happens.

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Kris Hiney: Okay. So I'm assuming they're either gonna kill the horse for insurance money or they're gonna drug him. So he wins or loses the race.

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Victor Bahna: There's a there's definitely some cheating going on. But what happens to those? But you do get to see. The thing I like

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Victor Bahna: think was interesting about the book and writing. It was that you get to see the sort of life cycle of the horse. So you get to see

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Victor Bahna: from birth through the auction ring onto the training. You know some, some early expectations.

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Victor Bahna: What happens to the horse, you know, throughout his career, and then, after his. His career is over. Some of the danger that he finds himself in as well, and that's

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Victor Bahna: all part of the it's all woven into the into the story itself.

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Kris Hiney: Gotcha, so that readers will learn a little bit about the racing industry at the same time as kind of the

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Kris Hiney: just, the enjoyment part.

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Victor Bahna: I've had several non-equine non racing. People read the book and tell me exactly that that they say, Wow! I never realized it was so much going on at the

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Victor Bahna: at the racetrack. And they say, I feel a lot more educated now. So so yeah, I would say so.

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Kris Hiney: Very good. So part of our kind of pre discussion. You also shared that. You're kind of an advocate again for the thoroughbred racehorse, and if you're cool with this, we're going to talk a little bit about what you've seen that they have done to improve. Maybe the standing of the thoroughbred industry, or maybe the racehorse industry in general with the public. So let's  chat about that.

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Victor Bahna: Yeah, definitely, I would say, my 1st comment is.

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Victor Bahna: and clearly, there's a lot of media that gets that gets out there. With regard to racing in particular, and I would also say that

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Victor Bahna: most of that media is not necessarily shining, racing in the most positive of lights.

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Victor Bahna: And I think it's

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Victor Bahna: it's a it's too bad, because what it what it does is, it really puts all of the individuals

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Victor Bahna: who are on the backstretch every day that that genuinely and deeply care about the horse and the welfare of the horse.

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Victor Bahna: It almost diminishes and dismisses all the hard work that they do.

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Victor Bahna: and my experience. As I mentioned. I really like going to the, to the racetrack early in the morning when they're doing their training.

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Victor Bahna: and you could just see all of the attention that's being put on those horses, the

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Victor Bahna: amount of care, the amount of checks that they do to ensure that they're that they're

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Victor Bahna: sound, and that they're able to train

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Victor Bahna: the the pre-checks. The post checks.

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Victor Bahna: the

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Victor Bahna: overall

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Victor Bahna: care that's put into these to these

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Victor Bahna: athletes on an everyday basis. And the

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Victor Bahna: the way in which they're

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Victor Bahna: attended to is something I think most of the public just never gets to see.

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Victor Bahna: And I and I think that's

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Victor Bahna: the 1st point that I'll make in terms of my optimism is

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Victor Bahna: having such good people

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Victor Bahna: to be taking care of your horses and those that

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Victor Bahna: will care about the horse as much as they care about any anybody else is is.

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Victor Bahna: in my opinion, that's 1 of the most important, if not the most important attribute that we've got going for us.

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Victor Bahna: It doesn't mean that there aren't bad actors. It doesn't mean that you don't find these

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Victor Bahna: examples of individuals that aren't necessarily playing by all the rules, or doing all the right things.

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Victor Bahna: But they shouldn't set the narrative for the entire industry or the entire business. And you know, unfortunately, you know the way

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Victor Bahna: society is. I suppose you know it's a little bit more

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Victor Bahna: sensational, and maybe more people will click on an article that's  negative than than one that's positive.

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Victor Bahna: So that that's probably the first, st

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Victor Bahna: you know. My 1st point.

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Victor Bahna: second point, I would say is that our social media has also

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Victor Bahna: raised a lot of awareness in regards to

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Victor Bahna: promoting aftercare

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Victor Bahna: for thoroughbreds, and we see that with even the racetracks getting involved now.

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Victor Bahna: So, for example.

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Victor Bahna: each of the racetracks that I that I participate in.

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Victor Bahna: they have foundations, and they'll  pull a few dollars out of every starter

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Victor Bahna: that goes to the foundation, which is specifically for aftercare options.

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Victor Bahna: and you'll see them promoted and marketed a bit more than like. When I started 20 years ago.

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Victor Bahna: Aftercare was

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Victor Bahna: an afterthought, I guess. And today it's definitely much more front and center for

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Victor Bahna: for the racing business. Even if you're watching, you know, the Kentucky Derby, or

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Victor Bahna: or one of the larger Breeders Cup, you know larger events. You're likely going to see some kind of an ad or promotion for

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Victor Bahna: for someone doing, you know, some sort of aftercare. So I think

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Victor Bahna: I think the social media has definitely helped with promoting that

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Victor Bahna: social media can be a double edged sword, too, because it

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Victor Bahna: can also give you the negative, and it can amplify some of the negative as well, and it gives it gives a platform

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Victor Bahna: for both what's good and what might not be so good. But in general, I think, having more awareness

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Victor Bahna: and having more options for individuals is, is a positive

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Victor Bahna: direction for the industry overall.

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Kris Hiney: Yeah, I know they have a number of whether it's training challenges, thoroughbred makeover challenges. That have been pretty popular. And personally, I know the farrier that I use he has.

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Kris Hiney: Oh, I think he's almost up to 200 thoroughbreds now that a foundation has placed with him to care for. So I mean, that's quite a few horses.

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Victor Bahna: Lot of horses. Yeah.

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Kris Hiney: Yeah, his full time business is caring for them. But that's unique, because you don't hear about that to me as much in the Quarter Horse industry as you do in the thoroughbreds. They definitely have tried to to do a pretty good job of ensuring that these horses, post career, are in good hands.

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Victor Bahna: I agree, and I also think that thoroughbreds may have a little bit of a reputation as being

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Victor Bahna: bit hot and hard to handle, and

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Victor Bahna: most thoroughbreds are actually pretty reasonable. Once you get to work with them, and once they get to know you, you get to know them, you do need a bit of patience, and

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Victor Bahna: you have to be perhaps a bit more on alert than you would with a with a standard bred. But

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Victor Bahna: for the most part the thoroughbreds really like having a job. And they tend to respond quite well to, you know, to consistency and 

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Victor Bahna: and just working. So I think some of that is starting to also become more.

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Victor Bahna: You know people becoming more aware of just the 

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Victor Bahna: personality of the thoroughbred, and not necessarily being quite as intimidated as they were in the past.

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Victor Bahna: And we're seeing that also, with a lot of charities, too. There's a lot of thoroughbred charities, and I guess one of the things that the thoroughbred industry

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Victor Bahna: is a bit more fortunate is.

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Victor Bahna: and I'm not really sure how this compares to others. But there is quite a bit of of money in the thoroughbred industry. And so you're seeing some of the some of the big money players also throwing.

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Victor Bahna: throwing some of their weight behind some of these aftercare alliances and foundations, and

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Victor Bahna: that absolutely does help

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Victor Bahna: get the message out as well as you know, driving more support for the for the horses.

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Victor Bahna: and then and then the last thing I'd mention is that we're also seeing improvement in regards to legislation.

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Victor Bahna: One of the things that's happening and it's going through Congress right now. I'm sure you're aware of is the is the safe act, the save America's forgotten equines.

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Victor Bahna: and that will help reduce the number of horses actually would make it illegal for us for anybody

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Victor Bahna: to ship a horse a live horse out of the United States for the purpose of slaughter.

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Victor Bahna: And so, even though Usda stopped funding inspectors to oversee slaughter of horses in the Us. Hence we don't slaughter anybody any horses in the Us. Today?

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Victor Bahna: We still.

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Victor Bahna: I shouldn't say we. But there, there are individuals that will that will ship them cross-border

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Victor Bahna: into Canada, Mexico, where it is legal to do that. And the safe act would basically forbid that from

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Victor Bahna: being legal as well. And so that that to me is a

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Victor Bahna: another step in the right direction and on the on the racing side of things we've got. We've got new legislation. It's called the

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Victor Bahna: Horseman Integrity and Safety Act or Hisa, and that also has.

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Victor Bahna: on the good side of things. It's really bringing everybody on the same page with regard to rules and regulations, because it seems like every racing jurisdiction

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Victor Bahna: has their own unique set of rules, and they don't necessarily carry over to different states and different racing venues.

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Victor Bahna: So that's better for me and as an owner is that you have a bit more consistency and more predictability with regard to

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Victor Bahna: the different types of rules and regulations on the flip side of things. It could be a bit of an overstep from an agency

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Victor Bahna: where they've got a lot of administrators that are not necessarily horse people.

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Victor Bahna: and so they're going after things that may not necessarily be

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Victor Bahna: in the best interest of the sport, or even the horse.

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Victor Bahna: And so there's  a fair amount

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Victor Bahna: pushback, I would say, in regards to some of the rules and regulations that are putting in, that they're putting in place, and I don't necessarily disagree with the trainers or some of the folks on the on the racing side that are pushing back. But 

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Victor Bahna: 2

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Victor Bahna: counter argue that

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Victor Bahna: they've had a long time

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Victor Bahna: to figure this out on their own, and the reason why the Government is stepping in is because they haven't.

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Victor Bahna: And so, in my opinion. It's a bit of a wake up call, you know. You can. Either you can either continue to just infight, or you can actually.

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Victor Bahna: you know, come together with some reasonable rules that that

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Victor Bahna: you know horse horse folks and you know equine experts are

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Victor Bahna: providing, as opposed to government administrators.

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Kris Hiney: Yeah, we talk about that a lot that the horse industry needs to be more self aware, because I would say, if at any point in time the government has to step in. It is because we have done such a disservice to that animal that the public now demands that we do better.

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Kris Hiney: Yeah.

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Victor Bahna: Yeah. And clearly, you know some of the some of the stuff that has happened.

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Victor Bahna: You know, is real, you know, there were a lot of breakdowns in California a couple years ago, and

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Victor Bahna: that also, you know, drew a lot of attention. And you know the  positive that came out of it is. There's been not just in in California, but you know every racetrack now is even more careful with regard to the surface.

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Victor Bahna: You know they never said it was the surface that caused the problems. You know. They tried to scapegoat a few individuals, but

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Victor Bahna: they're spending a lot more money, and they're spending a lot more attention on the condition of the of the racetrack itself, and you'll see races get canceled now

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Victor Bahna: that were never were not canceled in the past.

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Victor Bahna: you know, if it's extra wet, if it's

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Victor Bahna: if they just don't think the conditions are right, you know they'll be more cautious in canceling races.

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Victor Bahna: then they would have

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Victor Bahna: 5, 10 years ago, where they just would have raced on. So in a in a way, yeah, it is. It is forcing the industry to be more self-aware and to

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Victor Bahna: operate, you know, more responsibly.

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Victor Bahna: And yeah, we'll see where it goes from. Here.

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Kris Hiney: So I'm curious you talked about with Hisa. There's some of the, perhaps overstep. If there any particular examples that that you as kind of an owner and breeder think is a that they've gone a bit too far.

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Victor Bahna: I hear stories. Let's just say I think there's a lot of paperwork that we're asking

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Victor Bahna: horsemen to horse women to do that they're not necessarily familiar with. And so you

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Victor Bahna: don't dot an I or cross a T, and they're coming after you and saying, Well, you know you didn't do this properly.

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Victor Bahna: and so that that could be a bit of a burden. You know, people that are

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Victor Bahna: working in stalls and dealing with. You know, physical animals on a day-to-day basis aren't necessarily going to, you know, be the most meticulous when it comes to having, you know, every piece of paper.

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Victor Bahna: You know, documented, you know, according to the specific rules.

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Victor Bahna: So that would be one. The one that's probably been the most talked about is Lasix, for

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Victor Bahna: that you know whether we should ban Lasix or not, Ban Lasix. They pretty much have banned it for the two-year-olds that race. But after 3.

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Victor Bahna: And the argument is

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Victor Bahna: one of, is it a performance enhancer, or is it a safety issue for the horses?

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Victor Bahna: Does it prevent them from, you know, from bleeding, or, you know, does it give them an extra boost when they're running, and therefore masking over something else? And

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Victor Bahna: all of the trainers that that I've talked to

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Victor Bahna: tend to believe that it's an overstepment of the of the administrator that, you know they hear a bunch of things. They, you know Lasix is a pretty easy one to go after. It's a pretty easy one to

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Victor Bahna: to administer.

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Victor Bahna: and so that that's probably one of the more talked about areas that I've that I've seen.

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Kris Hiney: Right. And so, for maybe people that aren't familiar with Lasix, that's furosemide. And so it is typically given to horses if they can say they were a bleeder right? And so there is a little bit of controversy, whether that is performance enhancing. But I mean a lot of horses do run on Lasix, and essentially it's a diuretic.

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Victor Bahna: Back.

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Kris Hiney: Be, you know, potentially of why it's there.

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Victor Bahna: Say, 95% of horses today run on Lasix. Yeah.

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Victor Bahna: in the Us. I don't know about overseas.

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Kris Hiney: Yeah, I don't believe and I might get this wrong. But I don't think it's legal everywhere else. So that's more of a us policy.

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Kris Hiney: Yep.

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Kris Hiney: So what about for the average? Maybe consumer that or person that does click on the news stories and have some concerns with, you know we've seen things about, you know, kind of famous horses being drugged, etc. I mean, you're an owner and have horses racing. What is your kind of perspective on that.

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Victor Bahna: My perspective is that anyone that owns a racehorse, or really any horse, for that matter, really has a responsibility for that horse.

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Victor Bahna: and you can't claim ignorance, you can't say. Well, I didn't do it, you know it's got to be. You own you own the horse. You're accountable for what happens to that horse.

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Victor Bahna: And as an owner, I take that very seriously, it's important that you find good people to work with

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Victor Bahna: again the overwhelming percentage of people that are on the backstretch are going to be good people, and they're going to care about those horses

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Victor Bahna: and

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Victor Bahna: really make sure you've got really good communications with the folks that are taking care of your horses.

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Victor Bahna: If I can just digress for a second, I'll give you an example. I have a broodmare who's in Maryland.

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Victor Bahna: and I was on a trip overseas for business last year early last year.

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Victor Bahna: and the mare had fold, and it was the day after she had foaled, and she was, they detected that her heart rate was starting to race, and you know she had some. She was having some distress.

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Victor Bahna: and the owner of the farm tried to reach me. I was in Serbia at the time. She tried to reach me, and I was unreachable at the moment.

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Victor Bahna: Fortunately she had a vet that was on site, and they made some quick decisions, and they decided that it was in the best interest of the horse

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Victor Bahna: to send her up to New Bolton, which is the equine hospital in Pennsylvania.

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Victor Bahna: Get her on a van and get her up there as quickly as possible, they ended up

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Victor Bahna: doing a full blood transfusion on the horse. Yeah, she had some pretty serious issues going on, apparently.

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Victor Bahna: and because of their decisions to quickly

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Victor Bahna: move the horse and get her to the right place for life-saving surgery. They actually did save the horse.

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Victor Bahna: and she's currently on a farm in Maryland, and she's enjoying, you know her  post retirement retirement. I say it twice because she was a racehorse and a brood mare, and she's now just a horse.

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Victor Bahna: and the reason why I bring it up is because

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Victor Bahna: this is an example of working with really good people that put the welfare of the horse 1st

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Victor Bahna: they could not reach me, and so they had to make a decision on my behalf.

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Victor Bahna: And it's not a you know, sending a horse up to New Bolton and doing a transfusion, you know, is not a very, you know. It's not light in the wallet to do that. You know, it's a. It's a costly and an expensive surgery.

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Victor Bahna: But they understood, and because we communicate on a frequent basis, they understood that that was going to be my decision. You know my decision was going to be as an owner

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Victor Bahna: and as someone that's responsible for the welfare of that horse, that I was going to do what I could to save that horse.

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Victor Bahna: and so they didn't need to

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Victor Bahna: get that confirmation from me they acted with without having reached me, and after I did get through them, you know, a day or 2 later.

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Victor Bahna: you know, I congratulated them for making the right decision and acting on the welfare of the horse and on my behalf. And that's what I mean in terms of these people genuinely care. If they weren't that attentive to what was going on with the horse if they weren't then in tune with me, and they didn't have the same values that I had. You know that that horse wouldn't be around today.

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Victor Bahna: And so

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Victor Bahna: that to me is what you have to do as an owner, you've got to associate yourself with the right people that share your values.

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Victor Bahna: You've got to communicate with them frequently. You've got to let them know that the welfare of the horse is what matters to you the most

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Victor Bahna: so, and I'll have trainers call me and say, Hey, we've got a little issue here or there, and we'll back off, and 

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Victor Bahna: it's not an argument. It's not a pouting session, it's not. Oh, wow! You know. I wish you know we could have done something differently, you know. You know. Why can't we just push this along? Let's just do one more race. You know. We don't have that conversation.

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Victor Bahna: It's always about okay. We're going to back off. We're going to see, you know.

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Victor Bahna: Give it 30 days, 60 days, or 90 days, or longer.

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Victor Bahna: and let the horse let us know when he or she's ready to come back to training.

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Victor Bahna: And so I've had horses that have been laid up for you know I've got one now that's been laid up for over a year, and

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Victor Bahna: you know, when he's ready to start training, he'll let us know, and that's when we'll bring him back, and if he's not, then, you know, we'll find we'll find a second career for him, but

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Victor Bahna: that that to me is

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Victor Bahna: my counterpoint to some of the things that you hear, and and I think most owners feel the same way. I do feel like that's again

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Victor Bahna: the majority. And the more social awareness. And the more

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Victor Bahna: we're seeing

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Victor Bahna: participation from different sources, I think the more we're going to see of that as well. It doesn't mean again that you don't have your occasional actor that's going to do something wrong or do something bad. And I'm not going to deny that

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Victor Bahna: that that can exist. But

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Victor Bahna: hopefully that becomes more and more of the minority, and  what I experience is more and more of the common. The common experience for horse owners.

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Kris Hiney: Well, and I think that's an important, you know. Conversation kind of where we started is that owners really do need to take responsibility and not just say, well, the trainer said this, and to be more willing to look a bit more longsighted, and not just for immediate gains, and that. And that's not just resources. That's our show horse population as well, that that poor decisions are often made in the in the light of short term, gains.

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Victor Bahna: Yeah. And I would say, if you're not sure, ask a question, you know, if you if you see something that doesn't look quite right. Say, Well, what are you doing? Why are you doing that? And

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Victor Bahna: again, if if there's nothing to hide, you know, they'll tell you what's going on. And you know again, I really enjoy being there on the on the training days, because

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Victor Bahna: you just get to see so much, and you get to converse with so many different people. And it also lets the trainers know that you're also, you know, pretty invested in.

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Victor Bahna: And what's happening with the horse as well, so that they're not going to ignore you either.

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Kris Hiney: Yeah, absolutely. So maybe we should come back to the book to make sure that people know about it. So and I think anytime we've I really believe you know, we kind of had a secretariat effect, a seabiscuit effect. You know, when those movies were popular, the Horse has been a popular novel. So are you hoping to have the same level of success Heliacal Star and get it out to the general public.

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Victor Bahna: It would be great. Yeah, I think people really enjoy the story. I think it's a good, exciting, thrilling story, and I think folks will really enjoy it, I think, whether you are, you know, into horses or not.

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Victor Bahna: It's 

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Victor Bahna: the racetrack provides a really rich background for an exciting story, and for those reasons I think readers will really enjoy it. And yes, of course, I would love to have the same level of success if we can get a Helical star into the same stratosphere as some of those other names you mentioned.

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Victor Bahna: That would be a thrill.

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Kris Hiney: Yeah. So now is this, is it available where people can listen like on audible as well as

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Victor Bahna: Available in kindle and through your online retailers I've not done audible yet. I've been asked to do it. So it's something that's on my to-do list, but I've just not gotten to the audible piece just yet.

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Kris Hiney: Okay, well, is it? Would it be you narrating the entire book, or would you hire an actor.

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Victor Bahna: I would probably hire somebody. I don't know if I could do that.

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Kris Hiney: So like.

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Victor Bahna: People would stand my voice for however long the recording would be. But yeah, I would. I would probably hire someone to do that.

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Kris Hiney: Very good, very good. Well, is there anything else that you would like to share with our listeners about your book, or other endeavors that they may want to know about.

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Victor Bahna: Yeah, sure, I would say. Well, for one is, if you like to read, and we're getting near the holidays. By all means go ahead and purchase that book for yourself or for others, and definitely let me know what you think, too. I also have a website

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Victor Bahna: which is Www. My 1st and last name. So Victor bahna.com.

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Victor Bahna: One more thing I would do, I want to add, though, just to the welfare of the horses is.

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Victor Bahna: you know, we talk about all these

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Victor Bahna: issues with safety and regulations, and so forth.

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Victor Bahna: and all of that is extremely important. But in my experience the single biggest

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Victor Bahna: issue. I believe that's putting our horses at risk, and a danger is just the ongoing cost and expense it is to maintain a horse after they're retired.

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Victor Bahna: And it's and it's just one of those things that we have to think about in terms of.

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Victor Bahna: You know. Horses live for quite a long time, especially after the racing. And you know you're going to have that that horse, you know, for

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Victor Bahna: dozen, you know, maybe 2 dozen years, and so

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Victor Bahna: I think to me, that's s the next area that we really have to start thinking about is, you know, how do we

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Victor Bahna: continue to afford to pay for

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Victor Bahna: the ongoing expenses of these horses, because that's when I think people really start to

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Victor Bahna: look for alternate solutions. And I think that's where some of these horses end up falling through the cracks. It's not necessarily bad intentions or

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Victor Bahna: or individuals that are even negligent. I think it's just

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Victor Bahna: we're just out of options, and this seems to be, you know, the best way for us to reduce our costs going forward. And so

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Victor Bahna: that would be. The last point I'd like to just make is if there are things that we can think about or ways in which we can, we can offset some of that. And again, we have. We have a lot of charities and foundations that are that are contributing.

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Victor Bahna: But I actually think that that is the bigger issue with horses in retirement and post-retirement than

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Victor Bahna: than anything else. That's  going on, and I don't necessarily know what the answer is. But if we can identify the problem. Maybe we could start working towards a solution.

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Kris Hiney: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm aware of organizations that do try to work and do that. But perhaps what you had suggested either maybe a portion of all purse money needs to go into that fund, and maybe that portion needs to be a little bit bigger. But I'm not going to tell the thoroughbred Racing Association what they have to do on their purse structure. I think that's up to individual tracks a little bit, too. As to

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Kris Hiney: how that goes, or maybe part of the pool of the wagering amount needs to go to that organization.

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Victor Bahna: There are options probably out there, and they're coming around it, just, you know, just it just takes a while, I suppose.

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Kris Hiney: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's important for owners of these horses to think about and again contribute like, that's it's everybody's responsibility to make sure that we don't have these bad stories of these horses falling through the cracks.

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Victor Bahna: Exactly.

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Kris Hiney: Yeah.

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Kris Hiney: well, I really appreciate your time. And we'll definitely put a link to your website and make sure everybody is looking for that book again hopefully. That makes it up the list I know. Last year I'd heard about The Horse from some colleagues, and so I listened to that one so hopefully you'll get this audible book done.

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Victor Bahna: Right.

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Kris Hiney: I can listen to the next Great Horse Book.

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Victor Bahna: So it's definitely on my to do list. I've  had enough people

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Victor Bahna: requesting the audio book, so I'll have to get on that sooner than later, I think.

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Victor Bahna: yeah.

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Kris Hiney: Very good. Well, this has been a fun conversation. We don't usually have authors on the podcast. So I definitely appreciate your time. And this has been another episode of our tach box talk core stories with a purpose.