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The PROPERTY DOCTORS, Sydney Australia Novak Properties
EP. 1420 Messy? No - It’s called Lived-In~Chic’ MR LANDLORD
Ever walked into a property you own after years of tenancy and felt shocked by its condition? That jarring moment when expectation meets reality is at the heart of today's discussion with property management expert Cleo Whithear.
Navigating the delicate dance between landlord expectations and tenant realities requires finesse, fairness, and above all—reasonableness. As Cleo explains, property managers become mediators in these situations, helping landlords understand the difference between legitimate damage and normal wear and tear. After eight, ten, or even fifteen years of occupancy, properties naturally show signs of being lived in, and distinguishing between what's acceptable and what warrants compensation becomes crucial.
The conversation delves into specific examples that frequently become points of contention: stained carpets in properties occupied for a decade, broken blind cords after years of daily use, and minor wall damage during move-out. These situations highlight the importance of understanding depreciation and reasonable expectations. As Cleo aptly points out, tribunals won't award compensation for items that have reached the end of their useful life, regardless of their condition. Sometimes, the most powerful perspective comes from examining the financial relationship: "You've collected $427,752.52 in rent over ten years—within that, you've got to allow some expenditure."
For property owners and tenants alike, this episode offers valuable insights into managing expectations, understanding rights and responsibilities, and achieving fair outcomes during the tenancy conclusion process. The key takeaway? Properties are meant to be lived in, and with the right property manager facilitating reasonable discussions, end-of-lease transitions can proceed smoothly for everyone involved. Have you experienced challenging property handovers? We'd love to hear your stories and how you navigated these sometimes tricky waters.
messy or trashed or what is that unit? When your tenant moves out and your landlord walks in? Let's talk about that discussion. Stay tuned. I'm the ringleader, so I'm gonna. What is behind your shoulder? Cleo Whittier. Expert property manager.
Speaker 2:It's only been here the whole time I do Morning Minutes. That's the marble Venus de Milo, the famous sculpture that is in the Louvre. She should be in Greece, but anyway, let's not go there.
Speaker 1:In the Louvre.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she's been in the Louvre a long time.
Speaker 1:The replica, or that's the real one stolen.
Speaker 2:No, this is a replica. Obviously. The real one's like 6 foot 7 foot tall. But I remember we went there and Brian was like let's go, let's go visit, like Venus to my mum, like no, I'm not paying to see something that should be here.
Speaker 1:But we did eventually go see her anyway.
Speaker 2:This one is all marble and so is the the platform she's sitting on, but they're so hard to clean.
Speaker 1:Marble's so porous that is so walkie of you, it's so walkie, isn't it? Yeah, what's? And just just very quickly, who is venus demargo?
Speaker 2:well, she was part of the seven muses um, and it was commissioned. There was big you know these sculptures back in the time and I think it was I can't remember which world war or wherever where they took chunks of the parthenon away and a lot of all the artifacts got stolen from grace and taken to all these different countries england, you know paris, and there's been a huge movement over the years to bring back all the antiquities. But the conjecture is that if you do that for Greece, then they're going to have to do that for Egypt and then you know they'll have nothing over there. They'll have some oil paintings, wow.
Speaker 1:Another thing we'll learn about you today there you go, there you go.
Speaker 2:There you go, you're into your arts.
Speaker 1:Now, cleo, tell me, this is a discussion you've just recently had with a landlord. This is a discussion you probably have quite frequently, daily with landlords, and it's when a tenant is in a property and the landlord goes what, what, what? Oh, that's not how I left the property, that's not what, how I thought the property was in my brain. How does the conversation go?
Speaker 2:Look, it comes to some real delicate negotiations. A client always wants to know that you're in their corner and that's predominantly that's what we do. But we also have to be reasonable and in respect to the tenant that's been there for over six to eight years, the landlord does receive routine videos. However, they may not watch them for one year, they may forget about it, or whatever. We go there twice a year, every year, and we see a property change over time, especially in a big house. You know, things come up, things arise.
Speaker 2:A landlord might not remember, oh, oh, that retaining wall. You know I reversed into that 10 years ago and then all of a sudden they see a chunk of brick gone and they're like, did the tenant do that? And we have to then refresh their memories. So it is a comparable timeline of over, you know, eight to nine years. And then there's certain things that we have to, as the property manager say look, that's wear and tear, you need to let that go, or that's something that has depreciated, you really should replace it now anyway. So it's a real long negotiation. That's why the bond claim is offered a two-week period to settle or disputes, because in that two weeks you can imagine if you're negotiating a 10-year um contract or you know tenancy.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of things you're going to go through it must be a delicate conversation where the landlord turns around and says who are you working for? You're working. You should be working for me. You should be in my side of the corner.
Speaker 2:It's true, and we do go to that, you know, for both sides, for the owner predominantly, but we also, you know the tenant's also been there paying rent. You know there's maintenance requests that we have recorded that the owner may have overlooked or things like that, and it's our job to also mention that, you know, on behalf of the tenant. But yeah, look, we're not saying that if a tenant's been disrespectful and damaged the property, that we're not going to, you know, make them accountable by way of claiming money from the bond. We're not saying that at all. That is what the ingrowing condition report is for and damage is very clearly damaged. But where an owner feels damage and wear and tear are the same, that's where we clash and need to, you know, have wind for both sides if possible. Um, because you know things are going to happen.
Speaker 2:In a property you you do get, for example, carpets that are stained. It's an accident, it's not like the tenant purposefully dropped that cup of coffee, but the owner is not going to get brand-new carpet out of that stain. They're going to get a compensation amount based on the depreciation the carpet's over a certain amount of years. It's a write-off. The NCAT won't give you any money for it at all. Anyway, they'll just say look, mr Owner, you've had that tenant for 10, 12 years, now's the time to replace the carpet. Zero, they get no money for it. So we need to refresh the legislation terms to the client when we're there. But it doesn't mean that we're not going to raise that, you know, with the tenant. How did this happen? What's happened here, you know. And then we'll come up with a monetary figure, not just off the top of our head. Through precedent cases, through NCAT calculations, we work out a figure that is fair and just.
Speaker 2:For example, when we're talking about stained carpets, there are other things that come up, like, you know, if it's a wear and tear item, like a blind that's going up and down, up and down, up and down for 10 years and that blind cord is broken, that's not the tenet of breaking it, that's the tenet of using it and, as a result, over time it's perished. It needs to be replaced. Sometimes the client will go well, they've not been careful with it. I've lived in my house for 35 years and I've had the same blinds and none of them are broken and we're like, I understand. But you know, there's certain things, like if the balcony is, you know, north-facing and it gets a lot of sun. That plastic takes a lot from that and it will break in one to two years if the tenant's constantly using it up and down and it's there for you. So these sorts of things are what we negotiate at the outgoing with the landlord and the tenant, and they always come up the same things over and over.
Speaker 1:So if it's not an experienced property manager that handles their landlord and handles their tenant and handles the situation, they go to war. This arbitration will happen in a tribunal situation. It will cost the landlord time and money and it will cost the tenant time and money. So I have to add, you've got to have a gun, an absolute gun of a property manager and in addition to that you've got to have awesome documentation documenting the evidence through that period of the tenancy. But something I should mention, something that I should mention, is that I've often printed out the ledger for the tenancy with the landlord.
Speaker 1:When, when there's been a bump like you're talking about, and this is how it goes we look at the ledger and the tenant's paying 40 grand a year and the tenant's been there for 10 years and it's like, mr and Mrs Landlord, you've collected $427,752.52. And within that you've got to allow some of this expenditure. You've paid for your strata levies to maintain the outside and you've paid this much to maintain the outside. You've paid X and it's like much to maintain the outside. You've paid X and it's like you see that that penny drop with with the landlord where they're going, uh-huh, uh-huh. And if we go to war for you on this particular items. This will be the outcome. They're like, really, it's like yeah, you're not going to get all your carpet replaced, like you just mentioned. Oh, so a really good property manager is actually going to nurse that, nurse that that through, because that's reality.
Speaker 2:And when you get it arbitrated in a tribunal, it's the way a member's going to look at it it's true, and I love what you said with the ledger, because sometimes there hasn't been any upgrades in that time and tenants kept maintenance requests low. So that's another thing that we, um, you know, we look at when there is a little nick in the gyprock whilst they've been moving or something like that. I I really am confident to say that I've. The majority of our clients are so reasonable. But on the flip side as well, being the property manager for some of our clients for over 10-15 years we know the tenant, we know the property, we know the owner.
Speaker 2:We mitigate all that during the lease agreement. It's not at the end, it's at the routine. If we've noticed something that's going to be an issue, we do it then and there we don't wait till three years later down the track. We and we try to do that during our inspections. Um, but if you're a tenant out there as well and you are mistraining that property, rest assured your property manager is going to put a claim in on your bond before, at the time, you vacate. So if we know that it's not going to be clean, what we've asked to be fixed hasn't been fixed, that claim claims going in there and then, if you wish to um, you know, fix all those things in a very timely manner, then we'll be considerate of that as well.
Speaker 2:So on the flip side, we do, you know, we do have ways to bring the property back to a reasonable level straight away, be it a pre-final inspection, arranging quotes from our handyman to get things fixed prior, um, and just get an idea of what it's going to cost, um, the tenant from their bond. And then some tenants are like, yep, fair enough, I ran out of time, just take 300 bucks from the bond for cleaning, or, yeah, I damaged that. As long as your property manager is working for you in this outgoing process and, you know, is a voice for both sides, I feel like it can all be wrapped up in a couple of days, from when you return the keys to when we go and look at the property, and then everyone moves on and it all starts again.
Speaker 1:So, in conclusion, messy, no, it's called. Lived in chic. Mr landlord, the one word that I heard resonate that that everyone. That'll be the most heavily word used in this situation, that you have used quite a few times today, reasonable yeah, and and like the heading says, lived in.
Speaker 2:You've got to live in the property and you have to be reasonable with the end result, definitely and there's a show.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much, claire, for your advice today. See you later, thank you.