The PROPERTY DOCTORS, Sydney Australia Novak Properties
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The PROPERTY DOCTORS, Sydney Australia Novak Properties
EP.1429 - "LAW & ORDER!!! LEARN TO SUE PROPERTY FOLKS LIKE A PRO"
Ever wondered what really happens when property disputes reach the NSW Civil and Administrative Tribunal? This episode strips away the myths and misconceptions surrounding NCAT proceedings, revealing a process that's far from the dramatic courtroom scenes portrayed on television.
We explore the fundamental terminology and structure of tribunal hearings, clarifying the roles of applicants and respondents in these proceedings. The conversation demystifies what happens when you arrive at NCAT – from walking through metal detectors to sitting in conciliation rooms where most disputes are actually resolved. For tenants considering tribunal action, there's a crucial revelation: you're never actually "taking the agent to tribunal" – legally, your dispute is with the landlord, while the agent simply represents them.
The episode offers valuable insights into the conciliation process, where tenancy advocates often help both parties reach agreement without proceeding to a formal hearing. We share realistic expectations about timeframes, documentation requirements, and likely outcomes – including the fact that complete victories are rare, with compromise typically being necessary from both sides. For property managers and landlords, there's practical advice about preparing documentation and approaching these proceedings with the right mindset.
Whether you're a tenant considering your options after a bond dispute, a landlord facing a tribunal application, or simply curious about this important aspect of property management, this episode offers clarity and practical wisdom. Listen now to gain confidence in navigating what can otherwise be an intimidating process, and discover why experienced property managers view tribunal not as a failure, but sometimes simply as "a means to an end" in resolving disputes.
law and order in real estate in properties landlords suing tenants, tenants suing landlords, agents suing suing. We don't use the word suing much, but we're going to talk about Tribunal, new South Wales and the birds and the bees of it all. It's not as bad as you think. Stay tuned. I'm the ringleader, so wake it up. Good morning.
Speaker 2:Hi, good morning On this cold cold morning Isn't?
Speaker 1:it cold, it's cold. How are you, cleo? What's been happening?
Speaker 2:I'm good. I'm good, I'm just, you know, doing what I do. I'm in the trenches, I'm working, I'm dropping kids off to school, I'm preparing for school holidays coming up again Just the norm, really. When's school holidays coming up again? Just the norm, really.
Speaker 1:When's school holidays?
Speaker 2:It's coming into July, so they just creep around. This year I want to be prepared and have some things planned, because we did a boring lot the last one.
Speaker 1:so that's the month where all you Greeks go to Greece. That's the summer.
Speaker 2:I know my dad's there already and we promised each other we would all go as a family next year. I've been saying next year for five years now, so probably next year We'll see how we go.
Speaker 1:Book it in. Book it in.
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 1:All right, hot topic, you do hear about it in the industry tenants taking owners to tribunal owners, taking tenants to tribunal people, getting it mixed up. We want to clear up a couple of things today of what actually happens in that tribunal situation. The bare basics cleo, you're a veteran. How many times you reckon you've been there?
Speaker 2:I've probably been in my entire career probably about 30 times. Um, I don't see going to ncat as a failure. Sometimes it's just a means to an end. You can't negotiate anymore and someone has to make the decision. Um, with NCAT, the two main terminology used is probably the applicant and the respondent. So it's someone applying for whatever reason. They want their bond back, they want compensation, and then the respondent is the person going in response to that application.
Speaker 2:So often what will happen is a bond will be frozen by an agent. For example, at the final inspection there's maintenance or damages and things and the owner says I would like you to claim $200, $800 from the bond or the entire bond. Whoever applies for that bond first means that they've essentially become the respondent. So I've gotten in there first, I've claimed the money. If you're not happy with that, you've got two weeks to apply to NCAP.
Speaker 2:So then the tenant becomes the applicant because they are applying for their bond and they're not agreeing with the agent's decision to make a claim against the bond, in which case then the agent becomes the respondent to the application and each side has to show you know why they should have that money and it's always to do with money, usually to do with money. I think moving forward we might have more to do with vacancy, with the new legislation, an owner wanting their property back or a tenant not wanting to move. That side of things you know that won't be about money. But I've usually turned up to ncap over money, over claims that need to be um governed by someone else um.
Speaker 1:now can you please explain what it is, because I think most of us think court, um, and they think you know there's a judge with the white wig on and there's lawyers, but it's called the New South Wales Administrative Tribunal.
Speaker 2:It is, and it's not just for real estate, it is for all consumers. So it has to do with shops, it has to do with companies. It's not. It's not just real estate tenants and agents. If, for example, you're not happy with your builder, or you know you purchased a product, doesn't, you can eat. That's all done in this tribunal setting.
Speaker 1:The confusing thing for people. Sorry, claire, but the confusing thing for people is these guys have changed their name so many times over the last 20 years. It used to be Consumer Affairs.
Speaker 2:I know, and Tribunal was a big one. I'm taking you to Tribunal, tribunal, it's Tribunal Fair trading. You know I'm taking you to tribunal, tribunal, it's tribunal.
Speaker 1:Fair trading.
Speaker 2:You know we're going to fair trading and it used to be on Pitt Street and it was in this really old building where they used to have a radio station, also in the building.
Speaker 1:The AWA Tower yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it was.
Speaker 2:And the lift was really old and often there was, like you know, the curtain sheets in there and it was like you were going up to your sudden death. It was like where am I going? But now it's not. It's in Goldman Street, number 66. So look, when you go to NCAT, the process is pretty much the same. Every time you go you have your paperwork. That's what it means for agents. It's a lot of paperwork, and then you sit in front of a court member. They don't have a wig, it's not like on tv.
Speaker 2:Everyone sits in the room together, all the cases together, and what the member does is call out all the applicants and who is the respondent. Now, when you're an applicant and you're a tenant, you think I'm taking the agent, or you're angry at the agent or the property manager, but you're never taking the agent. You're taking the landlord. So when you're a tenant out there and you're doing an application, just remember they'll correct you when you go to NCAT anyway, but you are taking the landlord. We have a managing agency agreement. We work on behalf of the landlord with a hand yeah, exactly, exactly so.
Speaker 2:You know, I've seen applications with you know Mark Novak's name on it, my name on it. They'll put the at the end of the business on there and then that member just says like who is the landlord, what is the property? And that paperwork gets amended for the landlord's name because that's who you are taking to NCAT. Essentially. It's the landlord, anyway. So they call out all the names and you may really think you're going to get heard on that day. But the member says straight away if both parties are here, you need to go into the conciliation rooms and we'd like you to negotiate, or attempt to negotiate on your own.
Speaker 2:If I get involved, after you've walked through a metal detector oh yeah, you go through the metal detector and there's security there with you know, I don't know if they're guns or they're things like you know tasers or something, but they've got.
Speaker 1:They've got weapons yeah, like you could imagine some like neighborly disputes really getting personal you. So it's like you know you arm up before you go in.
Speaker 2:I know, I know it is and it's. You know it is a bit daunting and sometimes there is a lot of hatred in the room. I, you know, go in to NCAT with the same mindset always that we're there to represent either the client or to help the tenant and get a resolve. You can contact the owner at any time. This is what the tenant's offering. Are you happy to accept that when you go into the conciliation room you have to sit there with the tenant and sometimes the owner's present as well, because sometimes they like to come and that's totally fine. And then you have to hash it out between yourselves and sometimes that can get really personal and tenants get their back up or they haven't been through this process or some have been through the process a lot and they know exactly what they're doing. But then a tenancy advocacy member comes in, so they're basically a lawyer for the tenant and they sit there, but they also work for ncap. So they're like, if we can tidy all this up without having a seat in that room, without a very expensive member, we will try and do that. So they sit there and they hear the tenant out, they hear the agent out and it'll all come down to facts and legislation. Well, no, you can't do that. Or look, what does the owner really want? Would they be happy with this? Um, sometimes they negotiate the date. If the tenant says I haven't found anywhere, they'll say all right, do you reckon you'll find somewhere in two weeks? They go no, I might find something in four months. They go, well, that's not going to happen. So then they, we, they somehow try to get you to meet in the middle.
Speaker 2:I always I probably 99% of the time end up negotiating in that conciliation room, because I do prepare the landlord not to take a loss but to be accepting of the process. It's not going to go. You know 100% your way. Ever it never really ends up that way. So you have to be prepared to give and then we negotiate in that room. If you can't negotiate, then they say okay, we can't negotiate. You go in front of the member. The member will look around the room there's usually about five other hearings on that time frame and then they'll send you away for another two or three weeks and they'll say you need to give the agent all these documents and you need to give that tenant all your documents. And once we exchange documents, it can. The process can take a very long time. So if you're a tenant out there and you think you're just going to go there and get what you want and leave that day, the chances of that it's like a golden unicorn it never happens.
Speaker 1:So that little room that they send you off to that person that keeps popping their head in the room is a member of the tribunal and they sort of try to facilitate the agent conversation, the landlord conversation if they're tenant, and the tenant conversation. They're pretty accurate. Those guys Like they'll tell you how it's going to play out and you're like no way, I'm going to. And then when it goes opposite the member, are they normally right, those guys?
Speaker 2:I think normally they are. You know, I think they're like an idiot detector. They come in there and they're like, if they think that someone's you know not going to play ball, they don't waste their time. They're just like okay, this isn't going to go in front of the member, they're not willing to give anything, you know.
Speaker 2:So they come in there and they, yeah, they kind of test the waters and I, you know, over the years I've got to know quite a lot of them. I don't it's not personal for an agent, although it feels personal sometimes with the tenant, because sometimes you, you know, you build a rapport with these people. For years I've been to NCAT with tenants that have been in the property for eight or ten years. You know you build a rapport with these people. For years I've been to NCAT with tenants that have been in the property for eight or 10 years, you know, and it's it seems like a little bit of a defeat when you end up there, but you know, as long as, whatever it is that you, you know, we do everything with as much integrity as we feel we have.
Speaker 2:You know if, if there's photos, if there's emails, if there's evidence, you know that's what we go by and it's the landlord's wish, it's not our wish. You know to take $1,200 from your bond or serve, you notice, it's just the circumstance at hand. You know we are the messenger. So, and the same thing goes with the landlord. You know if they are disappointed with the outcome, um, it's out of our hands. You know there is a certain amount of leeway that both sides are given, but no one walks away victorious.
Speaker 1:Put it that way yeah right so before, yeah right so before we go. Any last words on tribunal stuff.
Speaker 2:I am looking forward to using AI. This time I'm going to put all my documents through AI and say can you formulate a table numbered? You know, with an index, all that stuff we hate doing this properly, managers, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, you know, with an index, all that stuff we hate doing as property managers.
Speaker 1:That's my law and order coming on. So what did you say?
Speaker 2:I'm looking forward to using ai to formulate my documents, because I don't have a lot of time, so I'm just gonna pop in all my evidence and say can you, you know, make this a table and number it and just all that tedious stuff that takes ages to do. So I'll see how that goes, I'll let you know.
Speaker 1:Thank you for sharing all of your IP not all of it, but some of it on tribunals, and good luck out there. It's a minefield. Thanks, cleo. Bye, take care, see you.